HRPD Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT AND THE STATUS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES

COMITÉ PERMANENT DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DES RESSOURCES HUMAINES ET DE LA CONDITION DES PERSONNES HANDICAPÉES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, May 13, 1999

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[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.)): The Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities will come to order.

In the first part of the meeting there will be a presentation from Madam Bousquet and Monsieur Sawyer of La Coalition des 50 ans pour l'emploi.

You have ten minutes. I don't know whether you're going to do five and five, but you have ten minutes altogether.

[Translation]

Ms. Gaétanne Bousquet (Coordinator, La Coalition des 50 ans pour l'emploi): Thank you very much. We're pleased to have been invited to present our written brief. As you can see, this paper presents several different issues, consequences and obstacles encountered by workers over 45 who have lost their jobs. The major difficulties that these people confront are prejudice caused by ageism and keeping a job.

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We've noticed that there is very little or even no help given to workers over 45. We want the government and departments to recognize the people over 45 should be a target group just like women, aboriginals, persons with disabilities and other similar groups.

As you have already noted, the rate of unemployment among older worked has increased since 1976. The number of unemployed has increased by 167.5% among those 45 to 64 years of age over a period of 20 years; it has doubled among those aged 55 to 64 and tripled among those aged 45 to 54.

However, a reading of this study paper makes it very clear that people aged 45 and over who have lost their jobs are experiencing serious problems and have an urgent need for assistance. This document applies particularly to services for individuals who are 45 and over and have lost their jobs, but you also need to understand and recognize their needs and suffering. Recognition of the work done by the specialist organizations providing job assistance for workers 45 and over would also be a major asset.

At the outside I should like to take the liberty of introducing La Coalition des 50 ans pour l'emploi to you. It is a non-profit organization that assists persons 45 and over who have lost their jobs by helping them to re-enter the labour force. For many aging workers, a layoff is actually the beginning of a long period of unemployment. It is expected that by the year 2011, there will be one million persons in this age group, the largest concentration of whom will be between 50 and 54, followed by the 45 to 49 year olds and finally the 54 to 59 year olds. It was obviously foreseeable that at the turn of the century, the generation of the baby-boomers would sooner or later be of retirement age.

We would hope that the study on which you are embarking will help you to increase your awareness of the reality faced by people 45 and over who are experiencing a dramatic situation, the consequences of which are especially harsh. With the globalization of markets, companies are cutting their manpower costs and the public sector is following suite in its bid to reduce the deficit; the result of this is that large numbers of people are laid off. This means that the fulltime continuous career model governed by seniority is no longer valid.

The consequences of the current vision of early retirement are beginning to make themselves felt in society. Thus, the vision is not without cost to society for items such as health care and assistance programs, because a person at work does not cost as much.

There is an obvious loss of talent, which is becoming a burden for our young people, who have the impression that they have to pay for all the early retirees. Finally, something major will have to happen if managers are to realize the technology does not have a brain and that it goes only where people want it to go.

People of 45 and over who lose their jobs experience major and very severe problems: profound psychological distress; systematic impoverishment; loss of self-confidence, loss of a sense of self- worth, doubts; isolation; limited education; lack of skills in job- search experience; skills that cannot be transferred; lack of mobility; physical limitations; problems in adapting to new technologies; limited ability to learn certain things; loss of social and family status; lack of recognition of their achievements; problems of physical and mental health (depression, burn-out); possible loss of assets acquired over several years. Many more factors could be included in this list.

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The consequences vary but are often experienced in a more dramatic form by individuals who are older. The older people become, the harder career changes or professional projects are to initiate and to achieve.

Furthermore, work is still a very powerful factor in social recognition and job loss can in the long run lead to a feeling of exclusion. People who lose their employment seem to lose a large part of themselves. Society has accustomed us to starting at the bottom of the ladder and gradually working our way up; if this does not happen an individual is thought to have blown his career.

When faced with the difficult situation of losing their jobs, people 45 and over must go through an initial phase of mourning. This mourning relates to the loss of the job, of social and family status and especially of financial resources as a result.

For people 45 and over, acceptance of the loss of a job takes time but it is nevertheless a step that must be taken before a person can take the necessary steps to reenter the labour force. In order to endure these changes better, it should be noted that people do not find new loves unless the old one is buried; however any change requires that ballast be jettisoned and that people loosen their grip on what went before. The system of values is overturned and people feel lost.

Let us now turn to obstacles to re-entry into the labour force. People 45 and older who lose their jobs must face the reality of the job market. If they try to rely on their work experience alone, they often fall victim to the "person who can do anything" syndrome. They feel that they can cope with any job opportunity that arises. Consequently, these people need to undergo a reality check and take an honest look at their employability in the short term. This is not easy because in their several years of unemployment, they will often have lost contact with the labour force that has developed and is now marked by new types of jobs or new requirements for the more traditional jobs.

People with experience also face the risk more often than young people of losing not only their jobs but also of seeing a decline in the level of employment in their profession or trade. This happens when there are mass layoffs or closures of firms.

Furthermore, people 45 and over who have lost their jobs are on average less educated and very often have not done anything to bring their skills up to date. They also lack adaptability and their experience is limited to a particular job market that now, on the other hand, requires greater capacity for adjustment.

Moreover, we know the form of systemic discrimination that occurs to the detriment of people who graduated from high school some time ago. A senior who applies is now often at a disadvantage because recognition of his or her education does not take into account the real value of the diploma obtained.

For reasons of their families and their roots, people 45 and over who have lost their jobs also usually have limited geographic mobility and that further reduces their employment opportunities.

In addition, these people may experience certain psychological or physiological phenomena that impact on their search for employment such as a lack of a job search experience, a lack or loss or self-confidence, a fear of new technologies, low motivation to be devoted to acquiring new skills, burn-out from work and a general decline in motivation.

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However, all people of 45 and over have to overcome one major obstacle, regardless of their experience, abilities or work experience: employers' prejudices against older workers, which is insurmountable for people 45 and over who are looking for jobs. Furthermore, they have less access to training and are significantly under-represented in training programs for the unemployed.

Since the disappearance of the Older Workers Assistance Program, the OWAP, which was also an early retirement measure, no active program or measure has been implemented to provide assistance specifically for people 45 and over who have lost their jobs.

In addition, the organizations providing services to these clients, who account for one third of the population in virtually all areas, are few in number. They are unevenly distributed from one territory to another and those that exist and provide services are not recognized in their communities and find it extremely difficult to obtain funding.

A survey conducted by the Sociétés régionales de développement et de la main-d'oeuvre indicated that in the province of Quebec there were 17 organizations that served this clientele exclusively. This does not include organizations that serve a broader clientele to which workers 45 and over can also apply, especially organizations for women or immigrants. However, seven regions did not have any organizations at the time of the census in late August 1997.

Mr. Rhéal Sawyer (Founding Member, La Coalition des 50 ans pour l'emploi): Let us turn to specific needs. Employability programs for these clients must have an approach which takes the whole person into account. This approach makes it possible to define and intervene in the whole range of factors.

Our organization offers a number of such services, including a data bank containing information about members. In order to help them, we provide a reception and individualized listening service for assessing their level of distress, their skills and experience in looking for a job. We then strongly encourage them to invest in a job search process in which they evaluate their career using simple psychological tests.

We also have one evening per month which they are urged to attend with their spouse so they can be made aware of the difficulties their partner is facing and to help them break out of their isolation.

Computer courses are offered, courses where many people have become interested in the new technology and gained self confidence and self-worth. We give English courses where people can learn a useful second language, which is becoming more and more important these days as we move toward industrial globalization.

As you can imagine, all our courses and training packages are tailored to those 45 and over, in light of their level of learning ability and education. Adequate resources are of undeniable importance in inducing job seekers to look into jobs for those over 45 and to help them cope with and overcome the many obstacles and prejudices that persist.

Another need that we have but which we cannot afford is a full-time person who can visit industries to increase their awareness and do away with their prejudices that are aimed with workers over 45.

Another need is the upgrading of knowledge and recognition of experience. In addition, all these services and measures must be accessible to those 45 and over who have lost their jobs, independently of their income.

Available services tailored to these people should also be considerably expanded in two ways: financial support for existing organizations and the creation of new organizations wherever the number or the amplitude of the problems of workers over 45 justifies it. There's also a need for funding specific activities offered by organizations that serve a clientele over 45.

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Employment insurance benefits must be extended for people 45 and over.

Job reintegration happens in the workplace. Community organizations that work with workers 45 and over should receive funding to approach businesses in order to develop this market. It is in the interest of these organizations to broaden the range of the services they offer and establish business relationships with companies.

Community organizations should also have access to the technological and information resources available to local employment centres, particularly job market information and placement.

In conclusion, we hope that this brief description of the problems and consequences of and obstacles to re-entry into the labour force, inadequate and unaccessible services and the specific needs of people 45 and over who have lost their jobs will convince you of the importance of maintaining, increasing and further improving the services that we provide to the public.

Governments are "desinstitutionalizing" everything and the community always has to pick up the pieces. We wish to assist but it should be noted that you will save a great deal by using this method and it is absolutely essential to finance at least those organizations that are working at lower cost; here too you would achieve savings and the work could be done by people in the community who are familiar with the problem and know what they're talking about.

We are convinced that it would make sense to put in place funding and assistance for organizations like ours across Canada. In order to do so, you would merely have to make use of expertise that already exists and has been gained by people 45 and over who have experienced and are still experiencing the problems. We believe that our approach is a winner and that a number of other ideas could also be implemented: there are already some interesting tools in our tool box and many more can be added later. Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bryon Wilfert): Thank you for your comments.

[English]

I will now begin the questioning, at five minutes each.

Madam Girard-Bujold.

[Translation]

Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold (Jonquière, BQ): I would like to congratulate you for the seriousness of your work and for your extraordinary brief. You have presented us with an excellent illustration of the situation. We've been saying these things for a long time, but you are experiencing them in real life. Your portrayal is very realistic.

I would like to ask you to tell us what governments could do in addition to providing funding to community organizations. You have an extremely important place in the approach taken by people who lose their jobs. You said that these people should have more weeks of employment insurance. You're in contact with these people, you receive them and they share their problems with you. I would like you to describe for the committee the situation they experience and what we should do, in addition to giving them immediate training, so that they can gain new enthusiasm for employment and improve their self worth. What measures should be taken, what programs should be instituted and what should be the content of these programs?

Ms. Gaétanne Bousquet: First of all, many things that should have been done haven't been done, notably training for older workers. That has not been done. People are coming out of companies without having the training necessary to follow the young. However, they do have expertise, but this is often not recognized. So that asset must be recognized. When companies want to employ people, they are asked to show their diplomas; the expertise they have could be recognized. Often, these things are not recognized by business.

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We should also start immediately to raise awareness among employers so that they will recognize the merit of people 45 and over, even if they've lost their jobs or if their geographic mobility is restricted. These people have established themselves in a town or city and cannot leave it overnight, as can the young who go to other cities to see what job opportunities exist there. Certain individuals should be designated to visit businesses and tell employers that people 45 and over are ready and willing to work. I see a lot of people around this table who seem to be over 45.

Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Yes, that's the case for most of the people here today.

Ms. Gaétanne Bousquet: You don't become useless just because you've reached that age. Over the years, one acquires experience and expertise. One does not always need a diploma to be a qualified employee.

We are aware of the importance of new technology these days. In Drummondville, where I live, new technology occupies a very significant place. There are still many challenges to be met. A large proportion of vacancies we have filled are in the area of high technology, an area where older workers experience certain problems.

We have to fight the prejudices of employers with awareness campaigns and by disseminating information in the media. We must promote the qualities of older people, as we often do for the young.

I often wonder how our young people will react, since we're always telling them that the past shows the way to the future. What lesson will they draw from the current situation, where ageing people lose their jobs? Will they say to themselves: "We will also work all our lives. What will we have left in the end? Will we have to spend everything we have like our parents had to do?" It is urgent that we raise awareness among employers.

Mr. Rhéal Sawyer: With your permission, I would like to add a few things about training. Although people 45 and over are very open to receiving the training they need, they are confronted with eligibility criteria. Certain courses are only offered to employment insurance or welfare recipients. We know full well that we are the generation where the two systems have always prevailed. When our employment insurance benefits run out, we receive no cheque whatsoever nor do we satisfy any eligibility criterion anywhere. We cease to exist. And yet, we represent a majority of cases.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bryon Wilfert): Madam Brown.

Ms. Bonnie Brown (Oakville, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for coming and for putting your thoughts on paper. You're obviously in this business, and you know what you're doing.

You mentioned that only 17 organizations in Quebec target this particular age group. I'm wondering, does your organization belong to a national umbrella organization? In other words, do you pay dues to belong to a national association, or is there any group in Ottawa that might be lobbying for you? If in fact there isn't one, do you know how many organizations of your ilk there are in the whole of Canada? It's mainly numbers I want.

I'd also like to know how many clients you processed last year; how many of them were on EI, either part 1 or part 2; and how many of them found jobs.

Maybe I'll stop there and let you answer those. Then I have a few more.

[Translation]

Ms. Gaétanne Bousquet: I couldn't tell you whether or not there are many organizations of this kind in Canada. As we indicated in our brief, a census conducted by the regional labour force development corporations revealed that in Quebec, 17 organizations served this clientele exclusively and in seven regions of the province, there is no organization of this kind.

We don't come under the new CIDEL and we're not part of coalitions working in Canada, although we would like to. If you wish, we would be pleased to create such coalitions throughout Canada.

In the past 26 weeks, 1,200 people participated in the activities organized by our group. They attended meetings of the board of directors or our monthly evenings that are designed to break isolation and raise awareness among spouses of the realities of job loss. These people also attended training sessions such as those described by Rhéal earlier. They took English or computer courses and got training to help them gain self-confidence and take charge of their lives. We also organized special events.

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Over the past 26 weeks, we have been successful in placing three people per week on average. These jobs may be full-time, part-time, or contract. Over 200 people have taken training courses in order to gain control over their situation as well as courses to become sales representatives, and some have taken career guidance and orientation tests.

We realized that often, when people 45 and over are unemployed, they wonder whether they would be able to do a job other than the one they had in the past 20 years. We have on hand tests that help us identify their abilities, for example, for sales. A man who sold bread for 36 years came to my office wondering what he could do after these 36 years or what he could write in his résumé. We made him aware that his work had put him in continual contact with customers and that he would certainly be a good salesman. This man is now working at Wal-Mart. He greets you and says: "Good morning, welcome to Wal-Mart". And yet, this bread salesman would never have thought he could do that after selling bread for 36 years. We made him aware that he could do something else.

Our coalition, which is established in Drummondville, has over 338 active members. We welcomed over 122 people in our offices. These are mothers and fathers with families who lost their jobs and have the impression that they've lost everything. When they come to us, they're prepared to sell their house, get a divorce and break up their family. They're wondering what they can do and what they have left. They believe they have nothing left. They're thinking about selling their homes and cashing in their RRSPs; everything goes out the window. These people are really disillusioned.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bryon Wilfert): I'm now going to have to go to Madam Picard.

I'll just say, though, on the idea of a national coalition, it's actually not a bad idea. One of the reasons we are focusing the attention here is that obviously this is a very critical issue, in our view, and maybe if we had more pressure from groups and organizations around the country it would assist in the long term in terms of achieving the kinds of goals identified with regard to the information you have presented to us today.

So it may have been tongue-in-cheek, but it's actually not a bad idea.

Madam Picard.

[Translation]

Ms. Pauline Picard (Drummond, BQ): I'm very pleased to join in welcoming these witnesses who are from my region, the riding of Drummond. I wish to sincerely thank them for having travelled here to tell us about their experiences.

Mr. Sawyer, I know that you're the founder of the Coalition des 50 ans pour l'emploi de Drummondville. I'd like you to explain how the coalition was formed, how you recruit people and who finances your organization. Is your funding sufficient to enable you to hire permanent employees in your office or do you rely solely on volunteers?

If you work within this organization, it's because you have also experienced what these people are going through at over 45 years of age. What kind of program could support job seekers over 45 and organizations like your own?

Mr. Rhéal Sawyer: You asked me how the coalition was created. After 20 years of loyal services in a company, I was laid off. Like many people over 45, I was a witness to the reorganization or restructuring of the company where I worked. I felt very alone and I said to myself that there must certainly be something I could do. I started to look around me and I tried to find out whether other people were experiencing the same situation. That's how our movement began. We got together and decided to take charge of our future. We went to the Department of Human Resources Development, the only support that existed; we were simply asked to fill out a form. I don't believe that that's an effective way of finding a job. You need contacts. You have to be able to talk to employers and sell your abilities, your knowledge and your skills. You have to be able to convince them. But first, you need contacts.

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You can't find a job by looking at the classified ads in the newspaper. Since we founded our organization four years ago, we've discovered that at least 80% of job vacancies are not advertised. Job opportunities are almost always communicated by word of mouth and through contacts. We have to go and find those 80% of jobs that are available, but we can't. As we indicated in our brief, the best way to do so consists in raising awareness among employers and eliminating all the prejudices they may have toward us. We have to be able to discuss this with them and engage them in dialogue, which enables us to find those job openings.

As a matter of fact, I experienced a similar situation last week. One of my own clients offered me a job, and I accepted. If I had not met that client, he would probably have asked his employees if they knew a qualified person to take over the job of sales representative, and someone else would have gotten that job. In 80% of cases, such jobs are not advertised. We must therefore be able to rely on people who work on-site, who gather information, who are in touch with professionals and entrepreneurs, and who collect relevant information about job opportunities. Thus we could help our members by indicating where they should apply for a job.

Furthermore, when I offered my services, the Chamber of commerce always told me that the main reason why I wasn't being hired wasn't that I was too old, but rather, they were not able to offer me a salary corresponding to my experience. I was very surprised of that. I wanted to eliminate that prejudice immediately, so I asked them if they knew what it was like not to have any salary.

The Chairman: Mr. Clouthier.

Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): Thank you. Mr. Sawyer, it's a terrible thing when someone loses his job. I am familiar with this situation, but it seems to me that many people tend to blame the government or a politician. I have many people aged 50 and over working in my forestry company. Don't you believe that people who lose their jobs have the responsibility to take charge of their destiny and go knock at the doors of many companies in their region and ask for a job?

Mr. Rhéal Sawyer: Yes, I fully agree with you. Let me congratulate you on hiring workers aged 50 and over. I knocked at the door of many of the 620 companies in Drummondville. I lost my job on Friday, and Monday morning, I put on a shirt and tie and I...

Mr. Hec Clouthier: You now have a new job, don't you?

Mr. Rhéal Sawyer: Yes, but I had to wait two years.

Ms. Jocelyne Girard-Bujold: Two years later.

Mr. Rhéal Sawyer: I am very well known in Drummondville, and employers said they couldn't hire me because they thought they weren't able to offer me a salary equal to what I was earning before. So they decided not to offer me the position, and I remained unemployed.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: What do you expect from the government? How much money would you like the government to grant to your coalition in Drummondville? Where do you get your money from, now?

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Mr. Rhéal Sawyer: We now get funding from a program through the local employment centre, which subsidizes us. Before, Human Resources Development Canada subsidized us, but when responsibility was transferred to the provincial government, they took advantage of the opportunity and flushed us down the toilet—pardon the expression. I'll tell you why I think we were set aside. It's simply because we believe that you have to get involved to get results. That's how we operate. Our results were positive, and we felt that somewhere we were stepping on people's toes. So we sense that they took advantage of the opportunity to get rid of us.

We applied to the local employment centre and we demanded assistance. For three months, we worked on a completely volunteer basis, without a single penny of funding. We paid the rent and all the expenses out of our own pockets, because we believed in the movement, we believed that by taking action, we would be able to get out of our predicament. We encouraged our people to take control of their own destiny and to go knock on doors, as you put it. We managed to get a grant from the local employment centre so that our organization could continue its activities. That's how we operate, as well as with the programs that they have to complement the staff that we need inside. The others are volunteers. I am a volunteer.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: That's terrific. Good for you.

How much is your annual budget?

Ms. Gaétanne Bousquet: At present, the local employment centre provides us with $34,620 in funding to pay for a coordinator and the building overhead expenses: rent, telephone bill, Hydro bill. That's our current funding.

The other people who work for the coalition come to us from wage subsidies and skill-building programs. That's how we operate now. We can't operate in any other way. We would need more funding, but everyone is cutting. We are cutting too, and we just have the bare minimum.

Our organization really needs a subsidy to allow it to open offices where people aged 45 and over who have lost their jobs could come for help. They are often referred to us by the local employment centre, the employment insurance office and the income security office. We must give them help that the large organizations cannot give them individually.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bryon Wilfert): Thank you.

One of the things you didn't mention in your response was ongoing funding for your program, and that's obviously something we need to be looking at in this type of operation.

[Translation]

Ms. Gaétanne Bousquet: We would like to have regular funding every ten years, but year in and year out, we have to go from department to department to ask for subsidies.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bryon Wilfert): We'll see what we can do here.

Monsieur Crête?

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): No.

[English]

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bryon Wilfert): Madam Ablonczy, or Mr. Scott.

We have another presentation in camera afterwards. I just want you to know that.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy (Calgary—Nose Hill, Ref.): I have a quick question, if there's time.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bryon Wilfert): Sure, very quickly.

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: I apologize for not being here for your presentation. We had a miscommunication with our team, and we thought someone else would be covering it.

I am very interested in what you have been doing. More and more of my own constituents in the age group you serve have been coming to me, finding it extremely difficult to readjust after a job loss.

Have you found that older workers, or people becoming older, would like to prepare for possible job loss ahead of time rather than simply having to readjust when the axe falls? Is there a role for preparing people ahead of time for the possibility, and if so, what are some good approaches you would suggest to this committee to help people be prepared in case there is a job termination or necessary readjustment?

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[Translation]

Ms. Gaétanne Bousquet: I can tell you that no one wants to prepare to lose their job. No one aged 45 and over is ready to prepare to lose their job, but when the situation does arise they have to live with it. Our role consists in giving these people guidance, support and help. When people lose their job, they lose everything. People from our generation were used to work. Their whole lives were built around work. When this centrepiece is missing, everything around it also collapses. When these people lose everything, they are completely helpless, completely devastated.

While reading our brief, you'll see that there is a systematic trend towards increasing poverty for people aged 45 and over. They are losing everything. Everything is collapsing around them. Therefore, they need support, guidance and training, but not training like you get in schools. People aged 45 and over don't want to go back to school anymore because they no longer have the capacity to learn that they had when they were 20 or 25 years old. They no longer have the physical strength they had when they were 25 or 30. For instance, construction workers and forestry workers who have worked 30 or 40 years in their trade, no longer have physical strength to carry on. Therefore, training and re-training is needed.

Mr. Rhéal Sawyer: Madam, if I understand your question, you want to know whether we could raise the awareness of people aged 45 and over who have jobs and who might meet with a similar situation. We thought about this in our movement, but there is already such a large demand from people who need to work and to provide for their needs that we cannot do that. That will be the second phase. We're talking about someone who would raise the awareness of employers regarding this issue. This person could also, with unions or with company management, raise the awareness of people aged 45 and over regarding this possibility. These people are not immune to what has happened to us. We could take advantage of this and raise their awareness, but we do not have the necessary means or personnel. We have thought about it and we would be ready to start working on it, but only as a second phase of our operation.

[English]

Mrs. Diane Ablonczy: I understand.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Mr. Bryon Wilfert): I'd like to thank both of you for appearing today. I want to congratulate you, the organization you represent, and the community of Drummondville for what's obviously an innovative approach. You indicated that if you have the tools, you can do the job. I would definitely concur, and I want to thank you for that.

We're going to have to suspend now in order to go in camera for a presentation from and discussions with the Office of the Auditor General of Canada.

[Editor's Note: Proceedings continue in camera]