TRGO Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on Transport and Government Operations

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, April 16, 2002

Á

1100

The Chair (Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce--Grey--Owen Sound, Lib.))

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur (Councillor, Rideau-Vanier Ward, City of Ottawa)

Á

1105

Á

1110

The Chair

Mr. James Moore (Port Moody--Coquitlam--Port Coquitlam, Canadian Alliance)

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Mr. James Moore

The Chair

Marcel Proulx (Hull--Aylmer, Lib.)

Á

1115

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Á

1120

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, BQ)

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Á

1125

The Chair

Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP)

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Á

1130

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

Le président

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Le président

Madeleine Meilleur

Á

1135

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Meilleur

The Chair

---

CANADA

Standing Committee on Transport and Government Operations

---

NUMBER 059

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, April 16, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Á  (1100)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce--Grey--Owen Sound, Lib.)): Ladies and gentlemen, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the order of the day is to hear witnesses with regard to truckers' hours of operation.

    Today we have Madeleine Meilleur, who is a councillor for the City of Ottawa and chair of its transportation committee. Welcome. If you will give us your dissertation, we will then have questions.

[Translation]

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur (Councillor, Rideau-Vanier Ward, City of Ottawa): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, committee members.

[English]

    Good morning. As the chair said, I'm a City of Ottawa councillor, Madeleine Meilleur. I felt it was very important for me, as a councillor and as chair of the city transportation and transit committee, to be here today to addess an important issue that in one way or another affects everyone in our city.

[Translation]

    As municipal Councillor and Chair of the City of Ottawa's Transportation and Transit Committee, it is a pleasure for me to be here today to address an important issue that in one way or another affects everyone in our city.

[English]

    On July 12, 2000, our previous city council requested the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transportation to hold hearings about hours of work in the trucking industry. At the time we expressed a number of concerns with the draft regulations proposed by Transport Canada, concerns that I would like to readdress today. Last spring the City of Toronto also requested public hearings on this issue.

    With a population of 800,000, our city is the second largest in Ontario. There are 500,000 jobs in Ottawa, and trucking is critical to our economy. On a 220-kilometre stretch from Chenaux to Hawkesbury, Ottawa has the only bridge crossing for trucks. It is plain to see that this means that the city of Ottawa, our downtown core especially, must every day accommodate thousands of trucks that travel from Quebec to Ontario and beyond, en route to their destinations.

    Federal hours of work regulations apply to trucking companies that cross a provincial or international boundary, but these trucks also travel through municipal areas. The regulations must reflect this. Seven days a week, 24 hours a day, inter-city trucks travel through downtown Ottawa to and from Quebec, Ontario, and the United States.

    The effects of pass-through trucking, however, are not unique to Ottawa. Sarnia and Windsor also experience significant trucking impacts through their close proximity to the U.S.

[Translation]

    Every day, inter-city trucks travel through the City of Ottawa en route to their destinations. This is a dangerous situation for everyone on our roads. Let me explain why.

[English]

    The typical route for transport trucks travelling through downtown Ottawa goes like this: trucks destined for Quebec exit the Queensway on the Nicholas Street off-ramp at highway speeds. They encounter several traffic light intersections on their way. They are required to make a sharp right turn on Besserer Street, a sharp left turn on Cumberland Street, another sharp right turn on Rideau Street before finally making their last sharp left turn onto King Edward Avenue. They then must navigate a tight curve up the ramp to the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge that links Ontario and Quebec. On August 6, 1997 a transport truck loaded with 66,000 pounds of waste paper tipped over on this curve. Clearly, this route is complicated and dangerous, even for an experienced driver.

    Southbound, the challenge is similar, except that drivers must make a sharp left turn from Rideau Street to Waller Street. Trucks up to 82 feet long negotiate sharp turns that were never designed for them. While turning, trucks block two or three lanes of traffic and sometimes creep onto the sidewalk. They literally operate within inches of pedestrians, cyclists, cars, and anybody else on our streets and sidewalks. Some of these trucks even carry hazardous materials that could cause major problems in downtown Ottawa if an accident should occur.

    During a two-month period in the fall of 1999, three tractor trailers loaded with lumber tipped over on the Nicholas Street and Queensway interchange ramp, spilling their loads, causing injuries, and creating great traffic disruption.

Á  (1105)  

[Translation]

    In two months in 1999, three tractor-trailers lost their loads on the Nicholas off-ramp, three tractor-trailers in two months. Since then, we have taken measures to prevent these kinds of accidents from reoccurring. But I ask you the question: Is it still an accident if we have been aware of the problem for a long time?

[English]

    I should note that our city and other government partners are trying to help to develop an alternate route for interprovincial trucks, one that would restrict them from our downtown core. It may, however, be over ten years before the right solution is finally found. Even then, transport trucks will still be required to negotiate ramps where there will continue to be a risk of falling over, the type of crash that accounts for a majority of truck driver deaths.

    Even on the best day an alert person driving a small car can have difficulty navigating through downtown Ottawa's truck route. What about a person who has been working for 14 consecutive hours on the night shift and who is steering a 140,000-pound truck? What if that person has also been driving for more than 80 hours a week for several weeks in a row? How alert can we expect the driver to be as the truck approaches one of these downtown intersections? This is precisely the type of dangerous situation that will continue to occur if Transport Canada's draft regulations are not reviewed.

    As a person with previous experience in health care, I know first-hand what night shifts and long hours can do to professionals. They can impair their judgment, disrupt family life, and harm their physical and social health. In the end, having a stressed and even burnt-out workforce is counterproductive to the economics of any organization.

    Another major concern with the draft trucking regulations is that they do not require long-haul trucks to be equipped with electronic recorders. This technology helps to ensure compliance with hours-of-work rules and is helpful for crash investigations. The government must audit hours of work, particularly in the trucking industry, where far too many workers lack basic union representation.

    The proposed U.S. regulations for truck driver hours of work are more safety-oriented than those proposed for Canada. Important features of the proposed U.S. rules are a maximum driving shift of 12 hours, compared to shifts of 14 to 16 hours in Canada; a weekly maximum of 60 driving hours for truckers in the U.S., compared to an 84-hour maximum in Canada; a minimum off-duty period of 48 hours once a week in the U.S., compared to a 36-hour respite in Canada; and a requirement in the U.S. for electronic recorders on trucks, but not in Canada. Also, the United States National Transportation Safety Board already has the authority to investigate serious transport truck crashes, but the Canadian Transportation Safety Board does not.

    This committee is doing the right thing in discussing and reviewing the issue of truck driver hours of work. Long-haul trucks that weigh up to 140,000 pounds also operate through municipal areas and are very present on the roads of our community. I encourage you to remember that safety for truckers, residents, and visitors must be the top priority in reassessing this issue.

    Thank you very much for hearing me. Merci beaucoup.

Á  (1110)  

    The Chair: Thanks, Madeleine.

    Are there any questions? James.

    Mr. James Moore (Port Moody--Coquitlam--Port Coquitlam, Canadian Alliance): Yes, I have one question.

    In the consultations you've had with truckers, particularly in eastern Ontario--because we've heard different opinions on this--who should bear the cost of the installation, maintenance, etc., of the electronic equipment? Should that just be borne by the truckers themselves?

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: Yes, it should be. It should be part of their equipment.

    Mr. James Moore: Also, is it possible to get, outside of Hansard...? Did you bring, by any chance, a written copy of your testimony?

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: Yes, I did.

    Mr. James Moore: It's coming. That's all, thank you.

    The Chair: I'll go to Marcel then, the Liberals.

[Translation]

    Marcel Proulx (Hull--Aylmer, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank, Ms. Meilleur, for taking the time to come and testify here this morning.

    In your presentation, Ms. Meilleur, you address two problems, the first being the unacceptable situation of trucking in the City of Ottawa and the second being the unacceptable situation regarding truckers' working hours.

    I will start by addressing the first subject. The fact that trucking is a dangerous and constant problem in downtown Ottawa definitely does not fall within the jurisdiction of the Transport Committee or the federal government. It will be remembered that, according to the planning done before the Macdonald Cartier Bridge was built, the City of Ottawa was responsible for building a safe road from the Ontario side and the City of Hull was responsible for doing the same from the Quebec side.

    The City of Hull did its duty. It not only did its planning; it also built Highway 5 with provincial government aid and, especially, with the aid of the federal government. It built the junction of Highway 50 and Maisonneuve Boulevard. There is no problem on the Quebec Outaouais side, whereas, there has been a virtually permanent problem on the Ottawa side, even though you have threatened the population of Western Quebec at various times with almost permanently closing access to King Edward Avenue by modifying the intersection, which was utterly unacceptable for both the population of Ottawa and that of Western Quebec.

    First, you still have the problem on the Ottawa side of not wanting to have access to the Queensway under Sandy Hill. Second, on the Ottawa side, you have refused to complete the system linking the Vanier Parkway to the Macdonald Cartier Bridge because that would disturb people in New Edinburgh.

    You talk about a solution that could remove trucking from downtown Ottawa, but which could take some 10 years. I want to remind you, Ms. Meilleur, that there is a corridor that has been proved on the Ottawa side, in Ontario, and by the new Municipality of Gatineau and by the province, which is the Kanata-Aylmer corridor, which would join Outaouais Boulevard, which eventually would join Highway 5 and Highway 50.

    So the first problem you want to discuss, or that you want to present to us, is not, in my view, a problem that falls within the Transport Committee's jurisdiction or within that of the federal government. Solutions exist; they have already been discussed. There is the possibility of tunnels, noise abatement walls, etc., but there does not appear to be any will in Ottawa to find a solution to the problem relating to the Macdonald Cartier Bridge. For the moment, however, pending some sort of agreement to the east, there definitely appears to be a way to find a solution for the Kanata-Aylmer corridor.

    Second, with regard to the problems caused by working hours and driver fatigue, I believe you're entirely right.

    Thank you.

Á  (1115)  

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: I would like to comment on what the member has just said. First, I believe that interprovincial transportation is a federal jurisdiction. Mr. Collenette acknowledged this when Bob Chiarelli and I met him in early December. He acknowledged that we had a problem in downtown Ottawa.

    I can't say who made the decision. I know it's not a municipal decision where an interprovincial bridge will go, but it is in fact a federal jurisdiction and a provincial jurisdiction.

    So it's a problem. The problem is there, and we have to deal with the problem today. What I wanted to point out today is that we currently have 10,000 tractor-trailers travelling through the downtown area trying to negotiate the detours that I explained to you. Even the truck drivers would like another route. There is currently no federal-provincial will to solve the problem, the solution to which would be to build a bridge to the east or west of the city.

    As a representative of the downtown area, I have to deal every day with the problems caused by 40,000 cars and 10,000 tractor-trailers on King Edward Avenue, which divides a downtown community.

    I want to tell you today that, when regulations are changed or truck drivers' driving hours are increased, you have to consider that the truck drivers don't just drive on the major roads, but that there are 10,000 trucks going through my community every day. If there's an accident and hazardous materials are spilled on King Edward, it is difficult to go from east to west because it's the nervous centre of the capital. That's what I wanted to tell you today.

    I didn't want to rekindle a debate that has been going on for a long time. What I'm proposing incidentally is that a solution be found to a problem that exists in the middle of a community and that it not be transferred to another community.

    Thank you.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

[Translation]

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: What level of government made the decision to use King Edward, Rideau, Cumberland and so on instead of other alternatives? Was the decision made at the provincial level, regional level or what level?

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: Since I wasn't around then, I couldn't answer your question. All I'm telling you today is that the siting decision for an interprovincial bridge is a federal-provincial jurisdiction. So I have to conclude that it was the Minister of Transport of the time and the provincial ministers who made the decision. The municipalities are responsible for building the infrastructure leading to those bridges.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is the City of Ottawa contemplating building infrastructure from the Macdonald Cartier Bridge to alleviate traffic on King Edward, Rideau or Cumberland?

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: Absolutely not. The Ontario Municipal Affairs Commission has directed us to ensure that the next bridge is a bridge for trucks, that is to say outside the downtown area, and it has issued instructions to the federal government and to the provinces to that effect.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: But, in the meantime, what are you going to do to reduce the problem on King Edward?

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: We have no solution. We're going to try to deal with the problem. We are planning to rebuild King Edward because we have to rebuild it. The underground infrastructure is obsolete, and there are vibrations. You have to realize that a community is being divided and that there are residences on each side of the street. There are very few businesses because the few businesses that were there have left since they could not survive; it's hell. I invite you to go down King Edward Avenue with me at noon. The CBC has tried a number of times to conduct interviews with me, but it's impossible: we can't hear each other. I had to wear a headset to hear the questions.

Á  (1120)  

    The Chair: Thank you very much. Mr. Laframboise.

    Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Do you know what surprises me? The fact that our colleague from Hull--Aylmer said with a straight face that the federal government has no responsibility in the case of transborder transportation. You are entirely right, Ms. Meilleur. Why do we have a government in Canada if it's not for the Department of Transport to ensure the free movement of goods and services between the provinces?

    In the transborder transportation issue, announcements were made. You have to imagine this. In Montreal, during an election campaign, you promised two bridges and a highway to lighten traffic on the south shore. That's good, but there were never any announcements to assist the City of Ottawa which was dealing with heavy, heavy traffic.

    You are entirely right, Ms. Meilleur. In addition to that, in Western Quebec, we also have to deal with your mood swings, because, when things aren't going well, you say it has to stop. But never during an election campaign did we hear the federal government say that it was going to help build roads and bridges to solve the problem of the City of Ottawa, which is the second largest city in Ontario. Never. Why? Probably because people have voted Liberal here in the region since the world began. That's the problem.

    You have all the resources for there to be a true service which is responsible to your community and to citizens and which is consistent with a form of economic development for the year 2000. Announcements should have been made. They were made elsewhere; they were made in Quebec. Projects worth $1.5 billion were announced, but you didn't get any. You weren't included.

    Somehow you have to fight today, and the member for Hull-Aylmer told us with a straight face that the federal government has no responsibility in the matter. I can't believe it. On the contrary, the federal government is solely responsible and must ensure there is adequate economic development in Western Quebec, Eastern Ontario and the National Capital Region.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mr. Laframboise, I never said...

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: No. You will answer when you have your chance, sir. Mr. Chairman, it is my turn to speak.

    So I understand the message you are sending us today. You are dealing with major traffic congestion, and trucking hours are one way to ensure at least that things are safer on your roads. You are asking the committee to consider working hours and you're entirely right. Transportation has been deregulated in Canada, as a result of which pressure has been brought to bear on the industry. Employees are being worked to the maximum. There is no succession. It is an industry that is becoming closed to the next generation because young people aren't interested in working crazy hours.

    Today, you're telling us to reduce hours so that they are comparable to those in the United States and that would perhaps increase safety. That is more or less the message you are sending us today. Obviously, I'm receiving it.

    I would like to ask you the following question. Apart from the fact that you have analyzed what is going on in the United States, have you had the opportunity to meet with trucking businesses or associations or industry representatives to discuss working hours? Have you had that opportunity?

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: City of Ottawa staff have met with him. I met them during the debate on King Edward Avenue. I did not meet them personally to discuss hours, but, as I told you, city staff met them. Second, other associations I deal with regularly have met them.

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: Lastly, your recommendation to make our hours similar to those worked in the United States would probably be the recommendation that came out of those discussions.

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: Yes, it came out of those discussions, discussions with experts in the field, our professionals in the transportation field. As you know, we have a very big transportation and transit department at the City of Ottawa. It's a priority for us. I felt I had a duty to come and speak to you on the subject today, for the two main reasons I gave you, and also because this affects our municipalities because I acknowledge that you are a player in the municipal field. You know that these trucks travel through our municipalities every day and that we have to ensure that our roads are safe, that our pedestrians are safe, particularly here in the City of Ottawa, where we do a great deal to encourage cycling, where we strongly encourage people to use transit and to walk. Imagine being on King Edward Avenue and trying to cross with these big trucks which, as I said a moment ago, transport hazardous materials. I don't think it's very safe. That's why I had to come to speak to you today.

Á  (1125)  

[English]

    The Chair: Merci.

    Bev.

    Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): I want to thank you for your presentation today and certainly for bringing the perspective, which has come up, that municipalities do have great concern over the length of truckers' hours because of a number of issues that you've mentioned, including the fact that they carry dangerous goods through municipalities, whether it be through a situation....

    I don't know all the internal dealings as far as the infrastructure with and surrounding Ottawa is concerned, but I think what you've done is highlight the need for us to recognize not just the fact that truckers are going to be forced to drive longer hours under these new regulations, but they're driving those hours in a number of different types of workplace scenarios, whether it be going through municipalities or on Highway 401, where there are literally thousands and thousands of vehicles on an ongoing basis, and not just truckers. So it does create a safety problem.

    I'm curious to know whether you ever had any discussions on truck traffic or truckers' hours with your counterparts in other municipalities in Ontario, or for that matter in Quebec, since they're fairly close, either through the Federation of Canadian Municipalities or the larger city work groups that get together.

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: There has been, as I said, a discussion with the staff of our municipality and our representative on the Ontario municipal association. So there has been discussion with them, and I think the increase in hours is of concern to most of them.

    I also wanted to add, as I said in my presentation, that in my first career I was a nurse and I worked night shift and I worked long hours, and I know after you have worked for seven or eight hours in the middle of the night, at five or six o'clock in the morning you have to be very careful of the decisions you're taking. And you will say yes, but it was in the medical field, but it's as important when you drive a 140,000-pound truck and you have the lives of the people around you too. So it's important. Is it as important? I don't think we can compare, but I know how I felt at five or six o'clock and even at ten o'clock in the morning when I was asked to do overtime because of a lack of staff. We have to keep that in mind.

    The Chair: Thank you very much.

    Mr. Proulx.

[Translation]

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Ms. Meilleur, coming back to our conversation a moment ago, I don't believe you ever heard me say that the question of interprovincial bridges does not fall within the federal or provincial jurisdiction. My colleague opposite constantly engages in demagoguery, but he should be careful because that results in 20% support in the polls.

    Let's understand each other. Yes, the federal government has a role to play in the issue of interprovincial bridges, but I'm not sure my colleague opposite would be the first to accuse us of not being sufficiently democratic if the federal government dictated to the municipalities and provinces where bridges were to be built. My colleague opposite is from the Quebec Outaouais. He uses those bridges regularly, but I believe he would be the first to tell us that we would not be showing respect if we dictated sites.

    So, Ms. Meilleur, I would like to know what type of infrastructure, what type of bridge you want us to build, and how far that bridge or those bridges should be built from the downtown area to avoid exposing the public to danger.

Á  (1130)  

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: I believe we should have all trucking routes outside the downtown areas, outside residential neighbourhoods. I don't believe the purpose of my presentation today was to tell you exactly where, and I don't think that is the purpose of this consultation either. So I can't tell you how many kilometers from downtown the bridges should be built.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: You answered my question. You agree that it should be outside the cities, on peripheral roads, in regions such as Cumberland or Kanata-Aylmer...

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: Absolutely. It has to be outside the downtown area.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: ...until development reaches those bridges. In 50 or 100 years, we'll start in again, but that's another problem.

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: If we engage in good urban planning and build bridges, we will keep those corridors outside the downtown area and will not permit residential construction. That's what I mean.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you, Ms. Meilleur. However, it must be kept in mind that, once on the peripheral roads, trucks must come into the cities to make their deliveries, but we won't wind up with trucks that are simply transiting through the downtown areas.

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: Yes.

    Le président: Mario.

    Mr. Mario Laframboise: Mr. Chairman, this enables me to make the public who read the transcripts of our proceedings or who listen to us and you, Ms. Meilleur, understand such important issues as infrastructure... I am quite pleased that the member for Hull--Aylmer corrected himself and said that the federal government has a responsibility with regard to bridges, but the federal government has acknowledged its responsibilities in many more areas in Quebec than just bridges. The case of Highway 30 to Montreal is an example, with trunk roads and bridges. They're ready to pay. They have budgets.

    When we heard him speak a moment ago, it was as though it was the City of Ottawa's responsibility. Ultimately, you would have to pay the bill. If the federal government wishes and is really serious, it need only extend the promises and millions of dollars on the table. They have surpluses for infrastructure. You've no doubt followed that. There's the Strategic Road Infrastructure Program, but there has never been any question of Ottawa bridges, or roads or development of the City of Ottawa, ever, ever, ever. And yet it's the second largest city in Ontario. I simply can't believe it.

    But once again, it suits them that it takes 10 years for you to choose the site. They won't have to spend a cent for 10 years. That suits them fine. They are letting you operate. You have to get to know them. I'm new to the game and I'm starting to get to know them. I just want to tell you that you have to expect that nothing will happen because, until they decide to invest...

    They haven't done it. For Highway 30 to Montreal, they commissioned an independent study to determine how much it would cost, how it would be done and so on. They've never done that here. They're going to let you do it but won't give you a cent. That's what's difficult, because, in the meantime, you have to bear the heavy traffic and your citizens have to bear this problem inherent in transportation in a city, the traffic problem. Try to find a country where the capital does not have direct-link infrastructure. You told us how many traffic lights a truck had to go through to get to the highway. Of all the industrialized countries, Ottawa is probably the only capital which has no direct link to avoid having to go through some 10 traffic lights to get to a service road. It's probably the only one, and I find that appalling.

    Isn't the capital a federal jurisdiction? In my opinion, you can keep it, and it's not serious, but it's nevertheless your national capital. I hope you're going to make it attractive.

    Thank you.

    Le président: Thank you very much.

    Madeleine Meilleur: That's not a question, but, if I can respond, I will say that we are currently consulting the public, precisely concerning the reconstruction of King Edward Avenue. Of course, all the merchants, residents, business people and politicians want us to find a solution so that heavy traffic is redirected outside the downtown area. That's also what the truck drivers want. So if you have any influence, if your committee can give us a hand... Mr. Collenette has acknowledged his responsibility and he must assume leadership in finding a solution for downtown Ottawa.

Á  (1135)  

[English]

    The Chair: Are there any further questions for this witness?

    Seeing none, I'd like to thank you very much for your presentation. It will be considered with all the other information we have when we write our report.

    Ms. Madeleine Meilleur: Thank you for having me today. Merci.

    The Chair: We'll suspend for a couple of minutes so we can go in camera to talk about the future business of the committee.

    (Proceedings continue in camera)