CHER Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, November 27, 1997

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[Translation]

The Chairman (Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.)): I call the meeting of the Canadian Heritage Committee to order. In accordance with subsection 108(2) of the Regulations, we are conducting a study of Canadian culture.

[English]

I'd like to welcome, from the Department of Industry, Mr. Keith Parsonage, acting director general, information and communications technologies.

Mr. Parsonage, maybe you could introduce your colleagues.

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Mr. Keith Parsonage (Acting Director General, Information and Communications Technologies, Department of Industry Canada): Thank you very much.

With me today is Mr. Jamie Hum, the director of our new media directorate, and Mr. Sylvain de Tonnancour, one of our senior economists who has been actively involved in doing analysis on the new media content industries.

At this point, with your permission, I would like to turn the microphone over to Mr. Hum, who will lead us through a presentation on Canada's multimedia content industries, after which we'd be more than pleased to receive any of your questions.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Jamie Hum (Director, New Media and Entertainment, Department of Industry Canada): Thank you.

This morning I'm going to be speaking to one of the new emerging sectors in the Canadian economy, which is referred to as the multi-content production industry.

If we could turn to page 2, we've résuméd the mandate of our department, Industry Canada, and put it in context with other departments within the government.

Generally, the mandate of Industry Canada is to work with Canadian industry to promote the growth of those industries and create jobs for Canadians. Within the federal government, the Department of Industry Canada works closely with other departments across all the sectors. We also work very closely with the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

In the past three years our department, along with others, has put a particular emphasis on the new emerging sector associated with the development of multimedia content production. This covers many activities in areas across the economy, including culture.

It's important to clarify at the outset that within the Department of Industry Canada there are many activities under way that are relevant to this new area of the economy. In this presentation today we will be focusing on the results of some of our work in the area of economic analysis, trade and investment promotion, and building partnerships or consortia across the Canadian economy. In all three of these areas we work closely with other departments, including the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

It's important to note we will not be getting into a lot of other relevant activities, including considerable work that is being done in general to support the development of small businesses in Canada. There are related agencies that work with our department, including the National Research Council, which has a very significant program referred to as IRAP, the industrial research assistance program. This program is available to all businesses across the country to help with technical innovation. We also work closely with the Business Development Bank of Canada to improve small business financing.

The department is also involved in several aspects of policy elaboration within the government, and we have branches that are looking at telecom and convergence policies, as well as intellectual property and copyright law. The department is also responsible for the administration of the Investment Canada Act, and there is a group set up to administer this piece of legislation. This is also done closely with the Department of Canadian Heritage.

I would also like to draw your attention to a particularly important set of programs in Industry Canada concerning the educational sector, in particular, SchoolNet. The department has launched these programs with a view to helping the school system, the college and university system in Canada, take full advantage of the information highway. In these programs there is considerable attention being devoted to current problems associated with the lack of Canadian educational content.

If you wish to follow up more on this, we could arrange to have further presentations on this particular program, SchoolNet.

Turning now to page 4, I'd like to revisit in general what is encompassed by the term “multimedia content”. We are really referring to all manner of digitized content. This is computer-based material that is accessed through personal computers. The term “multimedia” refers to the combining of different sorts of media, whether they be sound, video, images, or text.

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In the Canadian economy we now find that multimedia content is being used across the board, whether it is in education, entertainment, training, or for purposes of corporate promotion or business advertising.

The work we've done over the past three years has identified the fact that Canada has many outstanding producers of multimedia content. I have listed some examples of Canadian producers drawn from across the country and the types of areas in which they are producing content. You will see examples here that include entertainment and what is now referred to as “edutainment” products.

The product by McClelland & Stewart, The Canadian encyclopedia plus, is quite well known. Perhaps less well known are the many Canadian producers that are developing advanced training products to help Canadian businesses train their workforce. Of course, we see multimedia production in many areas of business, in terms of corporate promotions.

I'd just like to summarize some of the work we've done in terms of economic research and industry surveys. We started this work in 1995, and I think it is quite well recognized that there is a lack of useful data on many of these emerging sectors in the economy.

To help address this problem, we worked with the Canadian multimedia producers to undertake a survey of Canadian firms. This encompassed the mail-out of a questionnaire to some 400 firms. We had a very good response, with questionnaires coming back from over 200 firms across Canada. The survey results are quite useful in that they reflect all regions of the country and all manner of producers.

What is interesting to note here is that the multimedia production industry is actually converging from other sectors of the economy. When we look at the industry overall, we see that one out of three firms are what we refer to as start-ups; these are new firms. But the majority of the firms—two out of three—are actually existing businesses that are diversifying into the area of multimedia production.

So you can see that there are consulting firms, advertising firms, film and video producers, and training firms. All these firms are taking their existing knowledge and expertise and applying multimedia technologies to come up with new types of products and services. In a sense, multimedia production is an activity that will cross over and encompass many areas of the Canadian economy, including cultural firms, such as film and video producers.

Early on we identified that this is an export-oriented firm. We have over 60% of the firms involved in foreign trade, and they are also very active in seeking out strategic partners here in Canada and abroad. The industry is quite diverse in the sense that you will find that while a majority of the firms are very small, you also have firms that have fairly large numbers of employees. So you may see small firms, but there are also firms that may have as many as 50, 100, or 150 employees, depending on where they have come from.

We have done some additional research with Statistics Canada to identify further the make-up of the multimedia production industry. Going back to Statistics Canada, we have been able to do what statisticians refer to as cross-correlate the different sectors. If we know that a firm is a multimedia producer, we can go to Statistics Canada and, working with Statistics Canada, we can identify if this firm is involved in other sectors of the economy.

The preliminary results of this work indicate that of the 140 firms on which we've done this research, approximately 60% of multimedia producers are already involved in what is referred to as the business services sector. This is a large, encompassing part of the economy. It would include the largest part, namely computer services, software firms. So the software industry has been an early participant in the area of multimedia content.

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Not surprisingly, you also see advertising firms, consulting firms, and a wide range of other business services that are looking to provide new services to corporate and government clients. At the same time, one would expect—and one does see—that the cultural sector is roughly 25% of the multimedia producers we've been able to identify and on which we work with Statistics Canada.

So of the 141 firms, we have 15% involved in film and video, roughly 10% in publishing, and a smaller number—about 2%—coming from broadcasting.

Mr. John Godfrey (Don Valley West, Lib.): Just a detail. Is Learnware captured by these statistics somewhere or—

Mr. Jamie Hum: Yes.

Mr. John Godfrey: Where does it come—

Mr. Jamie Hum: The term “Learnware” actually covers two market segments. One part is products for the educational sector and the other segment is products for corporate training. So we actually have firms producing Learnware that are active in both markets.

Mr. John Godfrey: But they're not captured by these statistics, or are they?

Mr. Jamie Hum: These statistics you see on page 6 refer to the sectors from which multimedia firms may have diversified.

Mr. John Godfrey: Okay.

Mr. Jamie Hum: They may be existing businesses, such as film and video producers, that decided perhaps to use multimedia technology to start producing new types of educational products.

Mr. John Godfrey: Thanks.

Mr. Jamie Hum: On page 7 we are indicating that we are in the process of working—and will continue to work—with Statistics Canada to develop better data on this sector. The data available to us right now are quite limited. It requires a fair amount of slow, patient work to ferret out the important pieces of information and verify that the data actually apply to multimedia production.

So because the data actually are spread across different sectors in the economy, it takes a fair amount of effort to be able to draw out and accurately aggregate how much activity is actually going on with multimedia production. But starting in 1998 we hope to be able to have some analysis that starts to indicate the actual size of the economic activity, the number of employees, and things like trade for these firms. We're in the process now of getting preliminary data from Statistics Canada, and we hope we'll be able to do this type of analysis in 1998.

One thing Industry Canada has done is assemble what we refer to as a company capability database. This is extremely important for both domestic partnering among the firms in Canada as well as for purposes of promoting the Canadian industry to both partners and potential clients outside the country.

So over the past three years we have been able to identify close to 800 producers across Canada in the areas of multimedia production. Of these, we have worked with the firms to come up with profiles of close to 600. These indicate the types of products they produce as well as the markets in which they're active.

This information is available on a searchable database, and we have made it available through our web site on the Internet so that the industry in Canada, as well as foreign clients, can search the database to find information on the Canadian industry.

Having summarized the key points of our industry research, I'd now like to step back for a minute and turn to a more general view of the opportunities in this area.

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While at this point we may lack economic and industry data, we're certainly aware as a department that this emerging sector is a key economic, social, and cultural sector for the economy. When you look at what Canada has by way of building blocks to encourage this sector, we certainly are well placed in the global economy to move forward in terms of multimedia production.

So we have summarized here on page 9 some of our very evident strengths in areas like innovation in new types of content and the development of tools in the software area in terms of enabling technologies. These are world-renowned software firms that have clients around the world.

In fact, you will see the reference there to experts estimating that 60% or more of the software used in Hollywood is developed in Canada. This is a reference to the software tools that are necessary to make the special effects in films.

Of course, Canada is very fortunate to have one of the most advanced communications networks, which allows us as a country to work together and also be able to organize efficiently for purposes of both trade as well as promotion.

I'd just like to come back to an overview of our cultural industries on page 10. Certainly, Canada over the past decades has built up a very strong cultural industry sector. We have major firms in all of this industry, ranging from broadcasting through to publishing.

The aggregate economic activity is very significant for the Canadian economy. It's a major employer of people. While it's often said that our economy sees a lot of cultural imports, it's also true that, over the last five years in particular, Canadian cultural firms have now started to win very significant advances in foreign markets. We see increasing trade performance with these types of products. In fact, it's said that Canadian firms now stand second in the world in terms of exports behind the United States.

It's interesting that in looking at our cultural industries, they have two particular roles to play in regard to the future of multimedia.

First and perhaps very importantly, they are a large reservoir of existing content. We as a country have immense content assets in the area of culture. These existing assets can be taken and digitized and further exploited to come up with new types of products.

In addition, we see that the cultural industries are aware of the opportunities to move into multimedia. They are now starting to diversify and form partnerships to become multimedia producers themselves. So they not only can provide content, they can develop new types of content.

Look at the last slide on page 11. Actually I'd just like to conclude the discussion of our industry studies with these case studies. We have looked at how the film and video sector has begun to move into this area of multimedia production to diversify from their traditional film and video activity into new types of products.

Last year, we undertook three case studies of film and video firms across Canada that were beginning to move into multimedia production. We used those case studies to form some preliminary conclusions.

Obviously the opportunities are great, but there are rather significant challenges here to diversify from one activity into another. In particular, I think the private and public sectors will have to spend increasing amounts of time on the question of human resources. The opportunities are there, but the case studies indicate that we need to look at the skills required and how to help firms acquire the right types of skills in their workforce to be able to take advantage of these opportunities.

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The next section of the presentation provides a brief overview of the types of activities we undertake on an ongoing basis to support small businesses in the area of multimedia.

If we look at page 13, I'd like to start with the website of Industry Canada. In 1995 the federal budget effected a major change in the mission of Industry Canada. In 1995 we basically saw the end of many of our traditional subsidy programs to support business, and from 1995 and 1996 onwards, the department has been implementing a new approach to support business and to help business acquire the means to become more competitive, to take advantage of markets, to find partners, and in effect to use the information highway to compete in the global economy.

Strategis represents a major investment on the part of the entire department, and our branch, or the information technology sector, is very well represented on that website. The website allows us to service small business clients in new ways to provide them with the types of intelligence they need to compete and take advantage of the new opportunities. We are using Strategis very aggressively to reach out so that we can help as many firms as possible deal with the global economy.

If you go to our home page, which is dedicated to the multimedia industry—and the address is “Strategis.ic.gc.ca/nme”—you will find all of the market research organized in one place so it is easy for Canadian firms to find the information and use it, and also to identify partners they can work with in the Canadian economy.

As I mentioned, the database on company capabilities is particularly useful. From there, small companies can gain access to information on potential partners for multimedia.

I'd also like to mention, on page 14, that the department will continue to use Strategis to innovate, to come up with new types of information products to meet the needs of small business. One of the key requirements of firms in these emerging sectors is to learn how to finance, how to approach different sources of financing and understand their different needs.

In 1997 we launched the first version of a database for multimedia producers to help them identify the different sources of funding available and how to work with those sources of funding, and also to give them some help, some tips, so they can be prepared when they go and work with these different financers. We're getting quite positive feedback from the multimedia firms on this type of approach.

The next three slides highlight the work we are doing in collaboration with Foreign Affairs and International Trade and Canadian Heritage to help this sector promote itself more effectively on trade and global business. Our approach has been to work with these departments to develop what we call a virtual network of specialized officers, so that within the Canadian consulates you can find trade officers who are knowledgeable of the multimedia industry and can help Canadian firms when they want to go and do business in other countries. It is proving to be very helpful for Canadian small businesses to have these types of specialists dedicated in Canadian consulates around the world.

As well, we have limited resources to do trade events, but with the partners—with Canadian Heritage and Foreign Affairs—we do select certain trade events to focus our time and resources on. One in particular, which we've worked closely with Canadian Heritage and Foreign Affairs on, is Milia, which is the major multimedia event in Europe. This occurs every February. We're working with the other two departments to improve or strengthen the Canadian presence at this European trade show.

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As we continue to work in the area of trade and investment promotion, we're finding that the introduction of new approaches makes quite a difference to client services helping small business. Working with Foreign Affairs, we have organized a website in San Francisco that serves as a single point of access to provide Canadian firms with information on multimedia markets in the United States. Going into the San Francisco website, multimedia firms can find out how to deal with different markets, whether it is Boston, New York, Atlanta, Seattle, or San Francisco. Again, all the information is being organized and presented in such a way as to make it easier for small businesses to take advantage of it.

We are also working with Foreign Affairs to develop new types of products to promote Canadian firms. I have some examples that I can leave with the staff. For example, this is a CD-ROM we introduced at Milia last year to provide foreign clients information on Canadian firms. We put a fair amount of effort into putting a strong image forward in these types of events so that Canada stands out. They seem to have a very good reception with the different foreign customers.

So those range from products for a specific trade event to a CD-ROM that we developed with Foreign Affairs to promote multimedia capabilities generally, which has been distributed and is used throughout all the consulates by Foreign Affairs.

I think this is key to these types of industries in the economy, that the departments involved here can share the information on Canadian capabilities to come up with a single product so that we put our best foot forward in terms of trade promotion.

The third slide, on page 17, speaks to the next generation of strategists, our website. Over the next year we will be developing a new type of platform where it will be possible to showcase different sectors in our economy using multimedia. In effect, this is a rather innovative use of multimedia to promote all manner of different industries in the Canadian economy. It's not limited to the information technology sector, but we will be able, for example, to promote environmental industries and so on by using multimedia technology. In developing this type of capability, we are creating opportunities for our multimedia firms to come up with new types of promotion for the Canadian economy.

Two slides remain, on pages 18 and 19, and these speak to our efforts across the country to partner and encourage consortia to form on multimedia production. Industry Canada has organized a national team of officers across the country who are involved in looking at the opportunities on new media learning, which refers to the products for education and training.

We find that multimedia firms are organized by regional clusters, so that the industry is emerging not as one single entity across the country but rather as a number of clusters across Canada. So you'll find clusters in Newfoundland, Halifax, Fredericton, and so on, right across to Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Vancouver. In fact, most centres now in Canada have these emerging clusters of firms in the area of multimedia.

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With the national team, the department is able to support these regional clusters and link them to the work we're doing with Foreign Affairs and International Trade. So the regional clusters then become part of this larger effort to promote Canadian trade around the world.

Page 19 makes reference to the fact that we are now working with nine of these local consortia from coast to coast. As well, we have encouraged the formation of and are working with a national group, a producer's co-op of multimedia producers. This has emerged from the grassroots level from groups of firms based in Alberta and Quebec and now involves members from all provinces across the country.

While the department does not have funding programs available to actually finance such groups, we do work closely with the champions in these local clusters to help them organize and join forces with like-minded groups so that we effectively address the questions across the board within the industry.

That concludes the presentation. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Hum.

Are members ready for questions? I'll start with Mr. Abbott.

Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Ref.): I thank you for your presentation. I certainly welcome you as our guest to this committee. You're a very informed one at that.

The reason I preface it that way is because I'm trying to make a connection here between our study and your presentation, which is not your fault. I want that to be very clear. It seems to me that what we're talking about here is a medium of communication like a telephone, VHS tape, or celluloid that you would run through a 16 mm camera. Surely we're not thinking of trying to regulate or promote content on this medium in Canada, or are we?

There's an industrial strategy here to try to encourage this industry, as you so clearly put it forward. It's an industry issue. Is there any strategy you're aware of to try to regulate or work toward Canadian content in this particular medium? Are you involved in that side of it at all? I'm trying to make the connection between the study on culture and your presentation on the medium. As I say, I want to be very clear that I'm not in any way, shape, or form being critical of your presentation, but I'm trying to make this connection in my own mind for our committee.

Mr. Jamie Hum: Well, perhaps I could start, and then my colleagues could join in and offer other perspectives.

My understanding is that, generally speaking, this industry is not regulated. Multimedia producers are used to working in a very open and market-based environment. You see that from our industry research the majority of the industry comes from diverse business services, such as software firms, advertising, and so forth, that do not have a background of being regulated.

Now approximately a quarter of the firms do come from the cultural sector. Within the cultural sector there are firms that obviously are aware of some form of regulation, such as broadcasting, but even within the cultural sector there are many industries that aren't regulated, such as publishers.

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The question in terms of how to approach the Internet and content on the Internet is being looked at around the world by national governments and also through multilateral organizations such as the OECD.

There are a number of outstanding policy questions in this area that the Government of Canada is in the course of looking at. This involves many departments. I don't believe conclusions have been reached yet in terms of the Internet.

Mr. Jim Abbott: As the civil servants, you are the people who carry out the policy of the government. I want to phrase this question properly, because I don't want you to be answering for John Manley. From your answer, it strikes me that perhaps.... Are you aware that the government is looking at trying to bring multimedia under some form of regulation?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: To my knowledge, no.

Mr. Jim Abbott: Okay. Basically then, if I have kind of cut to the chase in this instance, what we're talking about here is a very excellent presentation that you have made this morning, but it deals with a medium of communication as opposed to what is on that medium of communication.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. The Internet is one of the communication media that the content industries we work with—the digital content industries—use. They have used, for example, as well, CD-ROMs. So there are many vehicles through which they can actually express the digital content.

Mr. Jim Abbott: Okay. As I said, I'm just having a personal difficulty here in making the connection.

Perhaps I'll pass, Mr. Chairman.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Ms. Tremblay, do you have any questions?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Several, but which one should I begin with?

I'm disappointed that, from the very beginning, the subject of copyright has been excluded from the presentation. It sure seems to me that we waited a very long time, from 1932 to 1997, to come up with a proposal for other areas. I think it's urgent for us to do something regarding multimedia content. We shouldn't wait so long before safeguarding copyright, because our creators won't have much protection in the multimedia world.

I'm trying to see why this is being excluded, when we deal with culture and should be very interested in copyright protection. So why hasn't the subject been broached? Don't you have any intention of broaching it? Are you waiting to be told by Canadian Heritage officials to do something about it? How do you plan to protect creators in the multimedia world?

[English]

Mr. Keith Parsonage: In the field of multimedia, as in any of these particular new media areas, they are subject to our intellectual property regimes and the various work that is going on internationally in trying to deal with these things. Industry Canada has a policy group that is looking into what the impacts are of the intellectual property regime on the new media industries. That is ongoing work, and we would be pleased to come back to you and explain what we are undertaking in that particular area.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Okay.

The Chairman: If I may just butt in quickly, I think what Madame Tremblay was referring to.... We went through phase 1 and phase 2 of the copyright legislation, and from what we understand, phase 3 would start imminently and would include multimedia. Are you aware of your department and Heritage having started the process of working on it?

Mr. Jamie Hum: Yes, work on copyright is ongoing and it's almost a continuation, I suppose. At both the international level there are meetings on this very subject on an ongoing basis.... I think that department, if you wish to have a presentation specifically on this type of development, could organize and present it.

The Chairman: Madam Tremblay.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Another question in connection with MAI. Since you're with the Department of Industry, do you know whether, if Canada signed this treaty, there would be lot of investment in the country in the area being discussed today? Would it be useful for our industry?

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[English]

Mr. Keith Parsonage: In general what we have found with a lot of the software advanced networks and new media industries is that the inflow of foreign investment has been quite beneficial to these industries. They have also brought with them significant job creation, opened up significant export market opportunities, and have brought the international management talent that has been required for Canada to exploit the international opportunities in these emerging marketplaces.

On balance, from the overall perspective, we have seen a very positive effect as the result of investment coming into these industries.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: But you don't have any figures pertaining to that.

[English]

Mr. Keith Parsonage: No, I'm afraid I do not.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Okay. That's all.

The Chairman: Ms. Lill.

Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Thank you. I would like to just carry on from there. I am concerned that there seem to be such distinct solitudes between what you're talking about and what we are talking about in terms of the idea of copyright and creative royalties. There's a disturbing distance between those two sectors. That's just a comment.

Following up on Ms. Tremblay, I'm concerned about multimedia concentration and foreign ownership in this area. I'd like to know what kind of safeguards Industry Canada has in place. Is it considering keeping this industry a Canadian-owned sector?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: Industry Canada has the Investment Canada Act. According to its administration, certain transactions are reviewable under that act and are subject to a net benefit test. I would be pleased to have our people who are responsible for the administration of that particular act come back on that issue, if you wish.

Ms. Wendy Lill: Okay. I have one other question. I have to keep one thing in mind, and that is, I know of a school that has about two old Apple computers, and I know of libraries that are also facing very limited technological resources. A figure that just hit me today is that there has been a 58% increase in child poverty since 1989. What I'm getting at is the market for all of these wonderful new mediums.

As a society and as this committee we have to look at who is benefiting from this kind of technology and this raging new business. I'd like you to comment on that. We have a growing have-not sector in this society. How are these people going to be able to take advantage and get onto the old highway, as we call it?

I don't think I want to hear about tiny little programs here and there. I want to know about what are we really talking about. How are we really going to make this something that's an equitable resource for all Canadians?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: We have as a goal to connect every school and every library to the information highway by the year 2000. We are doing that through two specific mechanisms—one is the Community Access program and the other one is the Computers for Schools program. This is being run through our information highway applications branch, which is also responsible for the SchoolNet program.

We have a very specific objective to connect every community and every library and every school to the information highway.

Ms. Wendy Lill: How much is that going to cost? Have you got costs on that, and have you got the money to do that?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I do not have data on that, but there are a variety of.... For example, the Computers for Schools program is the result of corporate and government donations of computers that are obsolete for our particular needs, for example, which are then being recycled, using volunteer help, into the schools. If you have specific cases in mind, I'd be pleased to take the names and pass them on to the Computers for Schools program.

Ms. Wendy Lill: Okay. As you know, many people in education have great concerns about having private enterprise involved in the education system, and I'm one of them.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: These are donations that are coming and being recycled, so there is no association with a particular individual company.

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Ms. Wendy Lill: Okay.

There's one other thing. That is, you have said over and over that there are no subsidies left and there are no moneys attached to your various efforts. I wonder, again, and I put this forward.... If there's no money, how are small film companies in fact going to get into this multimedia development? How are individual artists going to be involved in promoting their work internationally? We are talking about the need for money to allow people to get involved in this industry.

The Chairman: Mr. Mills.

Mr. Dennis Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to congratulate you, gentlemen. I think the work you're doing is absolutely amazing. When 60% of the software for Hollywood producers is being used by Canadian firms, I think that's a monumental statistic in terms of your team assisting in providing the infrastructure for those firms. I think it's unbelievable.

It seems to me that the way you're positioning all of these trading centres or government embassies or consulates around the world with all of this multimedia infrastructure gives us a tremendous opportunity to almost reverse the propaganda flow of information that traditionally has been coming at us from the United States.

For example, we always talk about being bombarded on television by American content. It seems that through all the work you're doing, through the information highway, through the Internet, because we're so far advanced, we could almost reverse the flow and use our Canadian context to go the other way. Do you see that as part of a possibility where we can put the Canadian message through this system the other way?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I think you're already seeing that happen now.

You're seeing, for example, as Mr. Hum mentioned earlier in his presentation, in some of the subsectors of the new media industry, Canada is ranked second, relative to the United States—

Mr. Dennis Mills: On the exports.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: —on the export side, in terms of the information flows that are going out there.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Terrific.

I want to go to page 19 because this page fascinated me the most. You have these nine local consortia, geographic clusters, with all these specialized media skills. These obviously are the experts in assisting people to push their product or service wherever they feel it should go. Do I have that correctly?

I would love to know the names of everybody who's connected in those nine media consortia, first of all, by region and then the individual names.

For example, in my community I have 3,800 people employed in the motion picture sector, but I'm not just thinking of them. I'm even thinking of other small or medium-sized businesses that still may be classified as techno-peasants, but if they could get the support of people who have these multimedia skills to assist them in pushing their Canadian product or service abroad, it seems to me that this page is where I could get the help. Is that...?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: That is easily doable. In fact, what community are you from, sir?

Mr. Dennis Mills: The east side of downtown Toronto. I represent the poorest part of downtown Toronto.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: We have several officers working in our Toronto office. I'd be happy to give you their names and telephone numbers.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Oh, that's terrific.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I can do that today.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Thank you very much. It was a great presentation.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: Thank you, sir.

[Translation]

The Chairman: We're going to open a second round of questions. I have three persons on my list: Ms. Bulte, Mr. Lowther et Ms. St-Hilaire.

[English]

Mrs. Bulte.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you also for the presentation. It was quite enlightening for me.

I want to ask you about this multimedia industry as it relates to culture and as it relates to the Multilateral Agreement on Investment.

One of the things that the minister has said he will exempt is culture, and we're now trying to decide on the definition of what cultural industries are. We're looking at the NAFTA definition right now. The Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada has come up with another definition. One of those things that is missing from that definition is multimedia industries.

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I'm hearing you say yes, it's a great investment and this is a great industry, but I too have concerns if it's not regulated. And there's also the problem with Canadian content, which has been essential to our broadcasting. It has been essential to our television. If the multimedia is going to become our major source, our major information tool, as television is now, I have a concern about that.

I think a number of us around this table have that concern. I'm trying now to find the solution as to what we should put in that agreement. Should it be accepted from the...? I'm just concerned, because I can't put my hand on what multimedia is. I'm not technical. If anything, I may be technically illiterate.

I want you to help me. If we sign this agreement, which probably will be signed with amendments, I need you to tell me how we can shape it so we protect the Canadian content.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: Frankly, that's a difficult question too. We have been wrestling with that in the course of our research: putting boundaries across just what is new media and what is new media content. Is it just digital content? I share your concerns and also somewhat your frustrations as to just how we put boundaries around this.

On the one hand, for example in the corporate training market, some of the content can come from anywhere in the world to be repackaged, not only for the benefit of Canadian people who are learning in the corporate markets, but also internationally. The content may even come from elsewhere in order to do that type of thing. Is that new media? Is it new media content? Is it new media learning? There are some real challenges and real policy issues there too.

Jamie, do you have anything to add?

Mr. Jamie Hum: Yes.

The frustration of course is this is a technology that defines the boxes and the boundaries. It's very much an enabling technology that is touching all parts of the economy. It's very difficult to accomplish.... Even though trying to come up with those boundaries for certain purposes has a lot of merit, technology has a tendency to defeat the attempt.

This is a challenge now for all governments in trying to draft agreements that stand the test of time. It's a concern that is showing up in a number of quarters.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte: So you see this as a legitimate concern. My concern is if we exempt it and do it as a reservation, it's subject to standstill and rollback provisions, and we're going to have a problem.

This is very timely, because our last MAI hearing with our chief negotiator is today, and this has not been raised.

The Chairman: Mr. Lowther.

Mr. Eric Lowther (Calgary Centre, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't know if this was detailed at the beginning, when you first came in, and if it was, I apologize, because I may have missed it, but I get the sense it might not have been.

What is multimedia, in your definition? Where does it start and where does it stop? What wouldn't be multimedia? Can you give us a thumbnail of that quickly? I have a follow-up question after that.

Mr. Jamie Hum: If we could return to page 4, to help clarify this, the emphasis on this page is the application of technology—in other words, the use of a technology to come up with new forms of content. The very general definition you see on the first point gets at the characteristics of this type of computer-based content, which uses the multimedia technology to combine a number of different media into one integrated presentation.

In the press you will often see references to multimedia that go beyond content production as such, because “multimedia” is a term that can also be used in regard to the technology itself. In other words, you can find multimedia technology in the small microchips that make many of the consumer electronics possible. It is also showing up in the computer workstations that authors, creators, and so forth will be using to create the content.

• 1205

So the term “multimedia” is often used in this flexible way. But the emphasis here in this presentation, and the emphasis in our work, has been on the production of new forms of content.

Mr. Eric Lowther: So it's not moving around old or existing content necessarily; it is actually creating new information from old data, or...? Where do you draw the line?

Mr. Jamie Hum: Yes, it would represent a combining of different sources, some of which are old.

Mr. Eric Lowther: Some of which are new, but the packaging is new.

Mr. Jamie Hum: Yes.

Mr. Eric Lowther: Okay. Then with that clarification—which I very much appreciate—what is Industry Canada's role in all of this? Is it primarily bringing together all the people who are involved in this kind of activity—sort of a network builder—and is Strategis the vehicle you use to do that kind of work?

Is that your thrust with this kind of very scattered, technologically based thing we call multimedia?

Mr. Jamie Hum: Yes, I think that is a fair characterization. We are attempting to bring the players together to focus on questions facing the industry and, where we can, to equip the industry with some tools or some information to help them take advantage of the opportunities. But it is very much in that facilitating, helpful role.

Mr. Eric Lowther: What tools do you use over and above? I think Strategis is one of them. Are there other tools you have to fulfil this role in which you see yourselves?

Mr. Jamie Hum: Well, from our perspective as a department, I think the most important tool is the reference to our national network towards the end of the presentation. In effect, as a department we have a network of officers across the country in all the centres. They are then able to work very closely with these clusters of firms. They then link that back into the rest of the various supports, whether it is our research in Ottawa or the consulates around the world. We can connect it all together.

Mr. Eric Lowther: At this point, with reference to Madam Bulte's point, you don't so much get involved in the content per se when you're networking these smaller groups of people across the country. You know, this fellow has this technology, you might need it, you put the two of them together, and away they go. You are not so much getting caught up in what they're trying to produce, as opposed to bringing the technologies together to enhance a presentation, or a new way of putting out the information. You're not critiquing the information itself, are you?

Mr. Jamie Hum: That's correct. We're not directly involved in the content.

Mr. Eric Lowther: Right.

Mr. Jamie Hum: We're just helping the opportunities along.

Mr. Eric Lowther: All those questions were for my own edification and information. I appreciate it very much. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you.

[Translation]

Ms. St-Hilaire.

Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueuil, BQ): First of all, I'd like to thank you for your presentation. I'm a bit worried about the information highway and the whole multimedia issue with regard to French. I don't know whether you have a strategy, a present or future one—in any case, I didn't see one in your presentation—for providing francophones in Quebec or outside Quebec with access to the information highway or its use.

[English]

Mr. Keith Parsonage: Our primary strategy across the country is using the Community Access program, which is also facilitated by SchoolNet, to provide access in both official languages.

We are very conscious of the concerns in the francophone community, and our information highway applications branch, which runs the Community Access program and the SchoolNet program, is diligently looking at specific ways of enhancing access to French content on the information highway.

It also requires access from other parts of the country, too. For example in St. Boniface, Manitoba, we have had specific concerns about access to French content.

• 1210

[Translation]

Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire: I have another question. I saw in your service guide that there is a program called the Women's Enterprise Initiative in the West. I'd like to know first why this program is reserved exclusively for the West and if there is any money invested in Quebec.

[English]

Mr. Eric Lowther: We need to help out there.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I'm not familiar with that specific program, but I imagine it's something that has been launched by Western Economic Diversification in response to specific needs that were identified in western Canada. Our colleague agency, the Federal Office of Regional Development in Quebec may have something similar.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Ms. Tremblay and then Ms. Lill.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I don't know how to formulate my question clearly. I wouldn't like it to miss my point.

I recall, however, that the Liberals spent a lot of time discussing the fact that the Conservative government, when it created the Department of Canadian Heritage, hadn't combined telecommunications with culture within the Department's mandate. One of the Liberal Party's promises was to bring telecommunications back under the wing of Canadian Heritage. Unfortunately, they've remained separated.

Today I realize the effect of having this two-pronged administration. I get the feeling that Industry Canada's priority is money. Canadian content doesn't count for much. Content is what the Department of Heritage has to take care of. So I have a hard time making the connection between the two departments and being quite sure that the money allocated to the creation of Canadian content won't be wasted, because we won't be able to disseminate this content, because we're going to be invaded on account of a lack of protection and development of the media.

Two weeks ago, I attended a conference in Quebec City, where an economist was telling people in the cultural industries not to waste their time working on convergence. If people are into cable distribution, they should stick to that and not waste their money getting involved in telephony. If people are involved in telephony, they shouldn't waste their money on cable distribution. The future in the 21st century is first and foremost, and solely, in the Internet.

On that assumption, how do we go about safeguarding Canadian content on the Internet? How can we compete in this area if multimedia content isn't protected, as Ms. Bulte pointed out? What can you tell us to reassure us, you, the cool-headed individuals from the business world, who see profit with dollar signs and the number of zeros on the end? What can you say to people like me for whom Canadian and Quebec culture is a major concern?

[English]

Mr. Keith Parsonage: Industry Canada's mandate is not the dollar sign, it's jobs and growth. To achieve those jobs and growth we have to work in concert with our partner departments such as Canadian Heritage and Foreign Affairs and International Trade to ensure that our actions in concert achieve that overall objective.

We have to be cognizant of the sensitivities of ownership in the cultural industries and bear them in mind as we move forward in working out our programs and policies from the jobs and growth perspective.

Mr. Jamie Hum: One area I'd like to draw attention to again is the work of our group on SchoolNet. A lot of work through SchoolNet addresses the concerns about the lack of Canadian content to meet the needs of the elementary, secondary, and higher levels of education. The SchoolNet program is working with the various players to try to address this question.

• 1215

As well, as we go forward and look at the opportunities on the information highway, and as Mr. Parsonage has mentioned, I think the department will be looking to work as openly as possible with many departments. The purpose will be to come up with new types of services, new types of content that Canadians can access, especially through the work of the Community Access program.

The program will establish an infrastructure, but perhaps most importantly, it's also an opportunity to organize new types of services, new types of content, to meet the needs of Canadians at the community level.

As a result, Industry Canada is developing these new types of partnerships with many levels—with the private sector, with other departments—to get at the question that, yes, you need to have content to make the investment in infrastructure pay off.

[Translation]

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Do you have any guarantees that we'll be able to have the necessary strategies? For example, Apple lost millions because it used the wrong strategy. How can we be sure we're going to do everything we should to preserve the advantage we have at present in exporting films and videos? We produce a lot and export a lot, but will we manage to keep this advantage in the 21^st century in the multimedia world if there isn't some protection in that area?

If I understand correctly, your role is jobs and growth. When you have the choice between job creation and cultural protection, you choose job creation. I can tell you quite frankly that I was disabused on my arrival here when they weren't able to prevent the sale of Ginn Publishing Canada Inc. When I see, for instance, the shortfalls in Canadian content, when I see on the English side that they exchange the illustrations in American books for Canadian ones, I say to myself that we haven't made much progress.

Young English Canadians are exposed to American culture even if the picture of the cow in the field was taken in Manitoba rather than Dallas. It's not just the illustration that makes the difference. I'm worried about some of the things I see happening in this area nowadays. What are you going to do to reassure me?

[English]

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I can offer no guarantees. Personally I'm an Apple fan. I'm very disappointed that they did not make the right marketing strategy choice.

An hon. member: Oh, oh.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: That was my first computer.

On the other hand, we have, for example, all the software being used by all the Hollywood producers. It has never been subject to any form of protection whatsoever. They have had to compete in a globally, internationally competitive marketplace. They have had no form of protection whatsoever.

They have benefited, however, from the work of Foreign Affairs and Industry Canada, and our network of trade officers around the world actively and aggressively promoting Canadian capabilities and Canadian talent. We've been very successful in that particular sector.

The Chairman: Mrs. Lill.

Ms. Wendy Lill: I'd like to go back to something you said earlier, and I understand we are using a different language to a certain extent. You talk about a large reservoir of existing content assets that can be digitalized, so we know that. There is lots of stuff in Canada that can in fact be digitalized, put into multimedia form.

As we all know, the Canadian film industry has no control over its distribution and has suffered greatly from that. Again, we keep coming back to these words: control, protection, regulation. How are we going to make sure there's going to be some sort of protection for a distribution system of these so-called assets?

• 1220

Are we talking the same language, or is that not something you can address?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: Let me try to address your question this way. As one of the vehicles of distribution for digital media, the Internet opens up a vast array of new distribution channels right into the homes of individuals around the world.

There's no power as such internationally that can control that type of distribution. Even you or I can set up our own distribution network from our homes out to the population of the world as a whole.

So in many cases the Internet offers up excellent market and distribution opportunities. These were impossible for an independent film producer, for example, to even have dreamt about five or six years ago.

Ms. Wendy Lill: So in your mind there is absolutely no need for any kind of control or regulation of the information highway, of the multimedia industries?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I didn't say that. I was just saying it was—

Ms. Wendy Lill: But you seem to think it's a plus. I'm just trying—

Mr. Keith Parsonage: On balance I think it offers tremendous opportunities.

Mr. Dennis Mills: As long as we continue to lead.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Saada and then Mr. Lowther.

Mr. Jacques Saada (Brossard—La Prairie, Lib.): One very brief question, Mr. Chairman. To come back to SchoolNet, have the provincial ministers of education, the departments in general or the schools expressed any needs in this regard? What's happening there with regard to content? What's happening with regard to training teachers so that they can have access to it?

What initiatives have been taken by the provinces with regard to all this? Do we have an idea? I think it's extremely important if we're talking about awareness right from the beginning. I think that was the main objective of SchoolNet at the outset.

[English]

Mr. Jamie Hum: I understand there are ongoing discussions between the SchoolNet program and the individual ministries of education of each of the provinces and territorial governments across the country. These take place in established forums such as the Council of Ministers of Education Canada, and so on.

And yes, I think the department will continue to have these discussions, especially in the area of how to take advantage of the infrastructure, how to ensure that we come up with content that meets needs, and how to do it in a way to help the various players work together so that we can reach the solution in a Canadian way.

I think if the committee had a particular interest in terms of educational content, the SchoolNet program could provide a presentation that looks at this or provides more information about how this is proceeding.

The Chairman: Mr. Lowther.

Mr. Eric Lowther: I'm curious; you had indicated earlier that you're networking with a number of businesses and people involved in multimedia right across the country. What a tremendous opportunity you must have there to get a sense of not only their success stories, some of which you detailed here, but also their frustrations.

I think it would be somewhat instructive to get an idea of their frustrations. What are the things they'd like to see changed so they could even excel to a greater extent?

Mr. Jamie Hum: Along with many emerging small businesses they share very real challenges in terms of access to financing, marketing, and, in particular as a group, finding effective ways to promote the benefits of these new solutions or new technologies to potential users in Canada.

We have considerable experience in the area, for example, of new media learning and the challenges Canadian developers face trying to work with different clients from the various industries across Canada. This is in terms of trying to encourage Canadian business, Canadian governments and so forth to accelerate their use of these products so that we keep markets in Canada that are robust and dynamic in terms of adopting these technologies. That in effect creates the demand that makes it possible for these suppliers to keep these technologies in Canada and develop the best applications in Canada.

• 1225

So the demand side is an ongoing concern. Through partnering at the local level with the particular needs of each region, we try to address that perceived gap between the purchasers as well as the developers, and that requires an awful lot of organizational work for bridging that gap.

Mr. Eric Lowther: I'll paraphrase to see whether I have what you said right.

Certainly, there's the financial access in the marketing piece, but the key one you're kind of pointing out here is almost a “people drag”. The technology is there and things can be done, but getting people to understand it, actually believe it can be done, and give it a try is their biggest hurdle. If they can get people to say that it actually works, find a success story, and have somebody to point to, then it starts to build. Is this that leading edge there?

Mr. Jamie Hum: Yes, very much so.

Mr. Eric Lowther: With that in mind, let's go back to the cultural protection sort of approach. Thinking of what's coming on with technological advances even to a greater degree, certainly it hasn't stopped; it's moving ahead. As for the Internet, we talked a bit about it.

But if we think of Iridium and some of the low-orbiting satellite ideas that are being proposed, the movement of information is going to cross national boundaries to an even greater capacity than ever before, I would suggest.

Has the industry department given thought to where this is all going? If we project out five years, the multimedia in your local PC and little presentation piece may become very obsolete. It may be much more fluid than it is today with some of the new technologies around the corner.

Would you concur? Have you thought about where that's going to take you in the years ahead?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I think I've learned through bitter experience in this industry that it's very difficult to speculate as to where it's going to go. If we look back 18 months to two years ago, we did not have such things as the worldwide web and browsers that provided the technology that the Internet is now renowned for.

I would hate to speculate as to where it's likely to go. I just know that things are going to evolve much more quickly and much faster than before. I think you're probably quite right that the flow of information, the quantity and the speed with which information is going to move around the world, is going to accelerate.

Mr. Eric Lowther: This is my last question.

I wonder if the industry folks would consider this. It has kind of come out in this discussion around the table here. I think Mr. Mills was alluding to it, and Madame Tremblay was concerned about it. Maybe in this new environment the best way to protect our culture, and to some degree control it, is to have a strong role, a number of strong players who actually produce a strong Canadian product that is selected both at home and abroad. Maybe that's the only way, as opposed to trying to control all these bits of data that are flowing through a variety of pipes.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: Our mandate has been to promote the growth and development and the international competitiveness of a wide variety of Canadian industries, including the content industries as well. That's the focus we've had.

The Chairman: Could I ask you a couple of questions as we close? I have been following this exchange with a lot of interest, of course. As you might know, this is just the starting point of a cultural study we're undertaking. We just wanted to focus, to start with, on two sectors: the evolution of trade and of communications technology.

Somehow, both are evolving at a hectic pace that we couldn't have foreseen two or three years ago. It's going so fast that somehow the one puts pressure on the other. The more the information technology seems to accelerate in its evolution, the more we want to sort of globalize trade so that we almost keep up with this sort of fast-moving world.

• 1230

In between, some of us who are concerned about how we protect our cultural identity and our institutions within this tremendously fast-evolving system are wondering how you can reconcile the two. It seemed to me this was the thrust of the questions that came from Mrs. Tremblay, Mrs. Lill, and Mrs. Bulte, amongst others.

In other words, I can see there's almost a dichotomy between your purpose and the purpose of Heritage Canada. There's almost a system of checks and balances. Yours is growth and jobs and the technology that will propel and compete and sell. Then on the cultural side it's how do you protect the small artist within this huge business or the small book publisher or the small video creator for the content?

Is it simplistic to ask you whether you see Industry Canada as the instrument that is going to promote the technology, the framework, and the instruments we will market and compete with and maybe beat the Americans at, and then Heritage is where we will have to look for regulation and protection of the cultural content—call it soul, call it what you want, but that sometimes indefinable presence that is cultural identity—whether it's in Quebec, Alberta, or B.C.?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: Canadian Heritage and Industry Canada have to work in tandem, very closely, with these things. This wonderful world of technology, with all the pipes that lead everywhere, needs content to run on it. In support of content as well as job creation, we're looking very hard at Canadian content, because it's Canadian industry that benefits from that and is the creator of it. I don't see it necessarily as a bifurcation. I see it as the opportunity to work hand in hand, very closely together, as we move forward.

The Chairman: Let's take the example of copyright phase 3, which Mrs. Tremblay referred to. Would you say that, for instance, given your mandate, you will want a looser framework and Heritage will want a tighter framework to protect media intellectual property in multimedia? And isn't that going to be the big challenge: for us, the committee, to see our way to bringing the two together?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I don't think I could realistically comment on that.

The Chairman: We don't want to pass judgment here; we're just seeking answers.

Mr. Keith Parsonage: No, it's just that I'm not close enough to the discussions taking place on the intellectual property side between the two departments.

Mr. Eric Lowther: Could I suggest something here, Mr. Chairman, that might bring this out? These fellows can concur or not. It might, in part, answer your question.

It's not so much a case of Industry versus Heritage. It's more that we all want to protect the Canadian culture, but the realities of what Industry is dealing with in the technological explosion and the information highway....

Let's just take one case in point. Let's take this whole DTH, direct-to-home satellite thing, where 300,000 Canadians are watching an American program because they happened to buy a dish and it's being beamed from outer space and they can pick it up in upper River Butte, Saskatchewan. How do you protect Canadian culture when you are moving into a technological day where borders and the pipes that carry the content are so diverse and so pervasive that putting a lid on it becomes a problem?

I think Industry Canada is saying, “Gee, I don't know how we're going to do that. We think it's a good thing that all these people communicate,” and Heritage is saying, “Well, this is exploding. We can't control it like we used to.” It's not really Industry saying they don't care about it. They do care about it, but they're facing up with the reality that it's just getting hard to put a lid on this thing. Is that...?

Mr. Keith Parsonage: I think that's a fair assessment.

• 1235

The Chairman: I should mention that my question wasn't geared to Heritage versus Industry at all. I don't think that was the sense of it. We want to find out where the threads are and where the links are and how we can ourselves maybe have some input into suggesting some links if some don't happen.

Ms. Bulte.

Ms. Sarmite Bulte: I had a comment on what you were saying, Mr. Chair. I think if we look at it differently—that Canadian content or protecting culture is not Heritage versus Industry—and realize the importance of Canadian content as a vehicle for job creation the same as the cable production fund.... If we as Heritage say it's important to encourage more Canadian content and use that as a vehicle....

Again, I hate hearing that heritage or arts is like a black hole. It is an investment, it creates jobs. Again, use the cable production fund as an example. The cable fund recognized that with people producing on the cable network, we needed to encourage more programming, which in turn created new jobs. If we now take this as an opportunity, and if the committee should feel that it's important Canadian content be on the Internet, then we should be developing policies to encourage that creation and that production.

Mr. Eric Lowther: I sure concur with that.

The Chairman: Mr. Saada.

[Translation]

Mr. Jacques Saada: I can say it just as well in French. I don't know, my dear sir, because I don't have an answer. I don't know whether it's because the area is so huge or whether it's because it's evolving so quickly.

Your questions, Mr. Chairman, and all the concerns expressed around this table lead me to wonder. Is it realistic to consider intellectual protection for these technologies over which we ultimately have very little control? I don't have an answer, I really don't know.

I take a very simple example. Mr. Parsonage referred to the fact that two years ago, hardly anyone knew about the Internet. Two years later, we're dealing with a process whereby we'd like to establish a framework for intellectual protection in this area.

Until we manage to find some way of doing so, it's still very far from being clear, in my mind at least. We may well have other things that will be much bigger, much larger, much quicker yet.

Aren't we chasing after a lost cause in this respect? That's my concern. I don't have any answers. I wish I did, but that's my concern.

[English]

The Chairman: Ms. Lill, and then we'll adjourn.

Ms. Wendy Lill: I'd like to follow up on a comment I think someone made earlier. It would be good to have somebody from your department who is concerned with the copyright issue and intellectual property come here so that we can find out what is being projected in terms of the future.

We need to have people who are excited and who see possibilities around intellectual property, who are also working in industry. We have to have some synthesis here. I think that's what we're all asking for. Let's have that happen, if possible, to continue the conversation. We now have a very good idea of where you're moving, but we have to find out who the people are who are moving in the direction that we have very major concerns about, and hope we're all going to be able to get it together at the end.

The Chairman: Are there any more questions from the members? If not, I would like to thank you very much, Mr. Parsonage, Mr. Hum,

[Translation]

and Mr. de Tonnancour. What a nice name, Mr. de Tonnancour.

[English]

Thanks very much for coming. When this started I didn't quite know where it was going to lead us. It was sort of fast-moving, like quicksand, but then it became extremely interesting. I found this session extremely enlightening and interesting. I think it has opened a lot of questions in our minds.

Of course, that's the exercise—to try to find out where we can go, and try to answer partly what Mr. Saada said, that maybe there is no answer, but maybe there is. That's what we're trying to find out. I think you helped us. Thanks very much.

Mr. Jacques Saada: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. I did not say there was no answer.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh.

The Chairman: The meeting is adjourned.