AAND Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES AUTOCHTONES ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DU GRAND NORD

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, November 4, 1997

• 1820

[Translation]

The Chairman (Mr. Guy Saint-Julien (Abitibi, Lib.)): Good evening. We shall pursue the review of Bill C-8, an Act respecting an accord between the governments of Canada and the Yukon Territory relating to the administration and control of and legislative jurisdiction in respect of oil and gas.

We resume the review of clause 2.

Mr. Patry, you asked to speak.

Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Thank you Mr. Chairman.

[English]

Before we start, I want the minutes of this assembly to say that the government will table two answers to questions asked by our colleague Mr. Konrad, and about the question from Mr. McNally regarding the federal proposal on the devolution of the northern affairs program to the Yukon government. It will be given to all the members of the committee tomorrow.

Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: I have a clarification to make.

I asked all our colleagues if they would agree on five minutes instead of ten to start the discussion. They have agreed. Do you agree on this?

Some hon. members: Yes.

The Chairman: Thank you.

I am going to introduce the first group of witnesses.

[English]

From the Government of Yukon, we have Mr. Maurice Albert, Deputy Minister, Department of Economic Development; and John Masterson, policy adviser; and Réjean Babineau, legislative counsel.

• 1825

[Translation]

We are going to allow you five minutes for introducing yourself.

Mr. Maurice Albert (Deputy Minister, Department of Economic Development, Government of Yukon): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

My name is Maurice Albert. I'm deputy minister with the Department of Economic Development. Today, Mr. Chair, we have a joint presentation between the Yukon government and the Council of Yukon First Nations. The presentation will be made by Victor Mitander. Victor is the chief land claims negotiator for the Council of Yukon First Nations. The second presentation will be made by Chief Ann Bayne. Chief Bayne is the chief for the Liard First Nation.

The Yukon government has been participating jointly with all the first nations in Yukon in developing and addressing a joint regime for the oil and gas devolution in Yukon. As a group, we have participated in the consultation conducted by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and our input has been heard and considered in the preparation of Bill C-8. So our role here as representatives of the Yukon government will be mostly to answer questions, if there are any questions, from the members of the committee after the presentation.

I'd like to ask now, with your approval, Mr. Chair, to have Mr. Mitander make his remarks.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Albert.

Mr. Victor Mitander (Chief Negotiator, Council of Yukon First Nations): Mr. Chairperson, my name is Victor Mitander. I'm the chief land claims negotiator. I have been since September 1985. I have Darryn Lees with me, a legal counsel who has been assisting the council in regard to the oil and gas issues in Yukon.

The Council of Yukon First Nations represents 11 Yukon first nation communities. We don't have representation in the council from the Kaska Nation communities or Kwanlin Dun.

As some of you may know, Yukon first nations have been actively involved in negotiations of a treaty since February 14, 1973—for very many years. Since that time, we have concluded six final and self-government agreements.

Five first nations are currently negotiating with governments and three are expected to be included in the very near future, hopefully by spring. The Council of Yukon First Nations has had an active role in negotiating the agreement in principle as well as the Umbrella Final Agreement, and we have been assisting first nations from time to time and as requested in concluding final and self-government agreements with member first nation communities.

There are a number of other common issues that the Council of Yukon First Nations and Yukon first nations deal with; for example, collective or common issues such as devolution, which is a very high priority issue in Yukon. There are issues dealing with taxation that we have a common table on as well as the inherent rights table, and there are other aspects that will be dealt with in the future as well.

Under the land claims agreement, chapter 23 of the agreement speaks to resource royalty sharing. In that context, the triggering mechanism whereby Yukon first nations would access the resource revenue sharing agreement won't take place until the transfer of, for example, oil and gas is done from Canada to the Yukon government. The resource revenue sharing mechanism would then kick in at that point in time.

The Council of Yukon First Nations and Yukon first nations have historically been opposed to the devolution of lands and resources, and the basic reason is because there are a number of Yukon first nations that have yet to conclude their final and self-government agreements. For those reasons we've asked that devolution should not proceed until we have concluded these agreements, and we've asked that first nations be a party to the devolution issues that would take place.

• 1830

In terms of Canada's approach, we have raised concerns in the past. When Bill C-50, I believe, died on the Order Paper, we raised concerns in the context of protection of first nations lands and resources and the ability to conclude those treaty agreements, as well as self-government agreements.

It has been our view that a first nation ought to take its own responsibilities in protecting its own interests, as opposed to having the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development protect those interests, as we move towards achieving negotiated treaties and self-government agreements.

The Council of Yukon First Nations supports the passage of Bill C-8. The council also supports the passage of the Yukon Oil and Gas Act, as it is being introduced to the Yukon Legislative Assembly soon.

As part of the process in giving effect to the oil and gas issue, the Council of Yukon First Nations, along with the Kaska First Nations and Kwanlin Dun First Nations, have signed off an accord with the Yukon government, a memorandum of agreement dealing with oil and gas, that basically commits the parties to work together in partnership in finalizing and addressing the issues that are outstanding, to give effect to the transfer of oil and gas, and, most importantly, the Yukon Oil and Gas Act itself, as well as the regulations that would support that.

The Yukon government has committed to protecting first nations interests, and in that context where third-party interests are created in our traditional territories, and where there are outstanding final and self-governing agreements, Yukon has agreed not to alienate those lands unless the Yukon first nations consent to those. Therefore they have incorporated those provisions in the Yukon Oil and Gas Act itself.

The Yukon territorial government and first nations, as a result of the memorandum of agreement on oil and gas, established a working group to give effect to the transfer of oil and gas in the Yukon. That would focus on the Yukon Oil and Gas Act, as well as the supporting regulations that would come with that. It provides for an effective and competitive oil and gas regime in the Yukon. It is a government-to-goverment process, and in that context, once we have given effect to the oil and gas act in the Yukon, first nations governments and the Yukon government would provide for early consultations on any disposition of oil and gas lands by first nations governments or the Yukon government.

It also provides for an important aspect to the Yukon people, and that is in regard to the impact benefit agreements, which provide for benefits for first nations peoples and Yukoners in regard to the opportunities that would flow from the oil and gas transfer. Again the ability here is to develop a common regime and ability of where a first nation can opt in or out of that regime in whole or in part. Again the basis of that is to focus on a common regime giving effect to oil and gas issues in the Yukon.

The Yukon oil and gas model that we have been working on sets out a very important process as to how we deal with other transfers of lands and resources from Canada to the Yukon, and from our standpoint it's an important model. It shows ability of first nations and the Government of the Yukon to work in co-operation, in partnership, and we've demonstrated that we can resolve issues to the satisfaction of the parties, which would provide benefits and opportunities for all Yukoners. It demonstrates the ability of a made-in-Yukon solution to issues that affect Yukon people.

Again I would like to take this opportunity to thank the chair and the committee members for allowing me to do this presentation. I would like to proceed at some point to questions and answers based upon that. So I thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Mitander.

[Translation]

It's always fascinating to see you live at the other end of the country, in Yukon. We really appreciated your testimony. I'm wondering if Chief Ann Bayne is going to take the floor?

• 1835

[English]

Chief Ann Bayne (Liard First Nation): Good afternoon. I'm Chief Ann Bayne of the Liard First Nation, and on behalf of my people I am pleased to speak to you today.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with our first nation, Liard First Nation has approximately 800 citizens and is a member of the Kaska Nation. The traditional territory of Liard First Nation extends throughout southeast Yukon, southwest Northwest Territories and northeastern British Columbia.

The traditional territory of Liard First Nation encompasses the Liard Basin. The Liard Basin includes the Kotaneelee Field, currently the only producing oil and gas field in the Yukon. Geologists tell us that the Liard Basin is prospectively the highest-producing oil and gas area in the Yukon. Liard First Nation is also one of the eight Yukon first nations that have not considered their final land claims and self-government agreement.

Given the fact that Liard First Nation has not considered its final agreement and the potential for oil and gas development within the Liard Basin, along with the possible impact of oil and gas development on Liard First Nation and its members, Liard First Nation has followed the passage of the federal Canada-Yukon Oil and Gas Accord Implementation Act and the Yukon Oil and Gas Act very carefully.

I'm pleased to advise you today that Liard First Nation supports the passage of Bill C-8, the Canada-Yukon Oil and Gas Accord Implementation Act, and the related Yukon Oil and Gas Act to be introduced by the Yukon government.

Historically Liard First Nation, like all Yukon first nations, has opposed any federal devolution, including oil and gas, prior to the settlement of our land claims agreements. The main reason for this position was the fear that after devolution, Yukon—which may not share Canada's fiduciary duty to aboriginal people—may proceed to create third-party oil and gas rights in our traditional territory prior to settlement of our land claims agreements.

The Yukon first nations and the Yukon government have found a creative way to address this concern through a memorandum of agreement dealing with oil and gas devolution which was signed back in January 1997. Through the memorandum of agreement, Yukon agreed that it would not grant third-party rights in a traditional territory of a Yukon first nation that has not yet concluded a land claims agreement without that first nation's consent.

Further, Yukon committed to give this understanding the force of law by agreeing to include this restriction in the Yukon Oil and Gas Act.

However, Yukon and the Yukon first nations went even further through the oil and gas memorandum of agreement in what I understand to be a national precedent. Yukon and Yukon first nations also agreed to work together on a government to government basis to develop Yukon legislation dealing with oil and gas. It was recognized that after devolution Yukon first nations and Yukon would each have jurisdiction over significant oil and gas resources and that it would make sense to develop to the greatest extent possible a common legislative regime dealing with oil and gas.

A working group comprised of Yukon and Yukon first nations representatives, including representatives from Liard First Nation, was tasked to review the draft Yukon Oil and Gas Act and to consider how a common regime could be established. As a result of the working group process, a number of significant changes to the Yukon Oil and Gas Act were made to address Yukon first nations' interests.

These changes include: establishing a process to ensure government to government consultation prior to either Yukon first nation or Yukon opening up oil and gas lands for disposition; changes to the regulation-making power in the Yukon Oil and Gas Act to allow for the review of important oil and gas conservation decisions by a panel which includes Yukon first nations nominees; mechanisms to deal with deposits that straddle first nations settlement lands and Yukon land; and very importantly, the establishment and requirement for an impact benefit agreement which ensures that Yukon first nations and other local community people receive employment and contracting and training opportunities associated with oil and gas development.

• 1840

The approach followed in the devolution of oil and gas sets a precedent for other resource sectors to be devolved from Canada to the Yukon. This model and the manner in which Yukon first nations' interests and concerns were addressed must be followed if Yukon first nations are to support the devolution of any other resource sectors in the Yukon.

I trust that we can learn from and build upon the successes achieved through the oil and gas approach to devolution.

I want to thank you again for the opportunity to speak with you today, and I look forward to any questions you may have.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you very much for your presentation Mrs. Bayne. I would like to take two minutes to introduce the members of our committee. This is the first time we do that. We are going to start with you Mr. Konrad. Would you like to introduce yourself to the people from Yukon and tell them which area you represent?

[English]

Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): My name is Derrek Konrad and I represent the riding of Prince Albert. I'm the deputy critic of Indian affairs for the Reform Party.

Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): I'm Grant McNally. I'm from Dewdney—Alouette in B.C., which is about an hour and a half east of Vancouver.

If the bags under my eyes are looking pretty big, it's because I flew out on the red eye last night. I'm fading quickly.

[Translation]

Mr. Ghislain Fournier (Manicouagan, BQ): My name is Ghislain Fournier and I represent the riding of Manicouagan in the North Shore region of Quebec.

[English]

Ms. Louise Hardy (Yukon, NDP): I'm Louise Hardy. It's nice to see familiar faces and to hear your voices.

Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): I'm Gerald Keddy. You all know Louise, but you don't know me. I'm the critic for the Progressive Conservative Party and I'm from the South Shore in Nova Scotia.

Mr. Bernard Patry: My name is Dr. Bernard Patry. I'm the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs. I'm the member of Parliament for Pierrefonds—Dollard, one of the regions of Montreal.

Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): I'm Bryon Wilfert, member from Oak Ridges, Ontario. I'm a Liberal and a former president of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, involved in the establishment of the municipal aboriginal centre for studies dealing with best practices.

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): I'm John Finlay, vice-chair of the committee. I represent Oxford County in southwestern Ontario.

Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): I'm David Pratt. I represent the riding of Nepean—Carleton. I'm standing in this afternoon for David Iftody.

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): I'm Judi Longfield. I come from Whitby—Ajax, which is on the northern shore of Lake Ontario, just east of Metropolitan Toronto.

Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): I'm Nancy Karetak-Lindell. I represent all of the eastern Arctic, the Nunavut riding.

Mr. Larry McCormick (Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, Lib.): Good evening. It's evening here, anyway. My name is Larry McCormick, member for Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, a very rural riding in eastern Ontario. I'm filling in for Lawrence O'Brien.

I just want to say I always enjoy my stays in the Yukon.

To the chief of the catchment area of the Northwest Territories and northern B.C., glad to have you here.

Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): I'm John Bryden. I'm the member for Wentworth—Burlington, which is not very far from Brantford and the Six Nations. I spent several weeks in the summer exploring the Yukon for the first time in my life, in preparation for this committee. I have to tell you, you have a wonderful territory there. It sure ought to be a province.

[Translation]

The Chairman: My name is Guy Saint-Julien and I am the Liberal member for Abitibi, in northern Quebec. I have in my riding people from the Cree and Algonquin Nations as well as Inuit people.

I would like to introduce Mrs. Christine Fisher, clerk of the committee; Mrs. Jill Wherrett and Mrs. Mary Hurley, researchers; and Mr. Charles Bellemare, legislative clerk. Thank you for your attention. We are going to start the question period.

• 1845

Mr. Konrad, you can start. You have five minutes.

[English]

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question for the territorial officials. What's the current state of oil and gas exploration and development activities in the Yukon Territory and adjoining area?

Mr. Maurice Albert: Currently there's no exploration going on in the adjoining area. We have two operating gas wells in the Kotaneelee field in the southeast Yukon, and there's currently an application in the northern Yukon for a company to re-enter some existing wells, some existing licences.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Do you think the transfer of powers will have a significant effect on these activities increasing or decreasing?

Mr. Maurice Albert: Our joint hope is that the activity would increase as a result of the devolution of the authorities. There has been no exploration in Yukon for at least the past 15 to 20 years, and this accord that has been reached between the Yukon government and Yukon first nations was obviously with the view of increasing the oil and gas activity and getting the benefits from employment in the oil and gas industry.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: So it's your view that the current regulations are stifling development and these new ones are going to increase development? The geology of course remains the same.

Mr. Maurice Albert: Yes. We were unable to change the geography through our tough work.

Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

Mr. Maurice Albert: The federal government has not permitted any oil and gas development in the Yukon, pending the resolution of the land claims or of a joint agreement between the first nations and the respective levels of government. This agreement was reached last January through a memorandum of agreement, and we've spent the last eight months developing the Yukon legislation that will complement Bill C-8. That bill was introduced in the Yukon legislature last Monday and probably will begin second reading debates on Thursday of this week.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. McNally.

Mr. Grant McNally: Thanks.

My first question stems from a question that Mr. Finlay asked this morning about oil and gas rights. Of 41,000 square kilometres of land, which we were told about this morning, 21,000 square kilometres belong to I believe first nations groups and 15,000 to the Yukon government. We were talking about how that was divided up—which lands and which areas in that region were determined to be for which level of government or which parties. I'm wondering if you can shed some light on that process for us.

Mr. Maurice Albert: First of all I will ask Victor to clarify. I think the land quanta you were quoting are a bit off, so Victor, can you clarify the amount of land we're referring to here?

Mr. Victor Mitander: Yes, I'll help clarify that question. You mentioned 41,000 square kilometres of land; it's actually 41,439.81 square kilometres. That equates to 16,000 square miles of land, of which 10,000 square miles would include surface and subsurface ownership, and 6,000 of that would just be the surface ownership.

I guess you could say that out of that 10,000 square miles, just over 3,000 square miles is in the north Yukon. The Old Crow Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation has ownership of 3,000 category A lands.

Does that help clarify the question?

Mr. Grant McNally: A bit, yes. I was just wondering about the process of how that was determined. Are all parties happy with the way that was divided up?

Mr. Victor Mitander: Well, under the Umbrella Final Agreement, 16,000 square miles of land was negotiated out between the principals. When we were asked that the Yukon first nations get together and try to come up with an agreement on how we would allocate the 16,000 square miles, we were unable to agree on how that should be undertaken. As a result, the Government of Canada had taken and provided some recommendations on how that would break down on a community-by-community basis.

• 1850

One of the conditions, for example, is that we wanted to move lands amongst first nations, but obviously that was not possible. As a result of that, the breakdown on a community-by-community basis...I could read that out if you'd like.

Mr. Grant McNally: Maybe we could have that tabled. Would that be possible?

We're out of time. Maybe we can get it on the next round.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you Mr. McNally. I will now the floor to Mr. Fournier.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: I said earlier that I represent the riding of Manicouagan, but I omitted to tell you that I am a member of the Bloc Québécois. I am very pleased to be one of the 44 members from Quebec elected under this banner.

In my riding, we also have aboriginal peoples such as the Montagnais with whom we entertain very good relations.

My first question is for Mr. Victor Mitander. I would like to know what is the territorial government position on the disposition of oil and gas leases on lands claimed by Yukon first nations. Are you satisfied with what has been done? Did it meet your expectations?

[English]

Mr. Maurice Albert: The position of the Yukon government was that the first nation would determine which land would be permitted, for those lands where obviously the first nations are controlled under the land claims agreement. The Yukon legislation more or less recognized for category A settlement lands that particular first nations will select which lands are permitted and which lands are put out for development.

[Translation]

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: Also, I would like to know if possible what kind of participation you had in the consultations the government had following the tabling of Bill C-8. How were you consulted and how did you participate?

[English]

Mr. Victor Mitander: This is the opportunity we have to speak before this committee in regard to this new bill, Bill C-8.

Prior to the last election, we made a presentation to the committee on Bill C-50. Basically the concern we had put forward is in the context of how the federal minister would protect first nation lands and resource interest where there are no final and self-government agreements. We thought it was a little bit too cumbersome. Obviously our view is that the devolution of oil and gas ought not to proceed until the remaining Yukon first nations' final and self-government agreements have been concluded.

In that context, we were trying to work with the past Yukon government, and we were unable to advance a position that could be supported by Yukon, meaning Yukon territorial government and the first nation government, dealing with Bill C-50.

• 1855

As has been indicated by Maurice Albert, we have signed a memorandum of agreement dealing with oil and gas, and it has provided certainty to the issues at hand. For example, in the Yukon Oil and Gas Act there are clear provisions, where there are outstanding first nation and final agreements, that they will not alienate the oil and gas lands unless the first nation consents.

We're hoping that over the next year the federal government—and that would mean the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs and the Government of the Yukon—will provide the highest priority in concluding the remaining final and self-governing agreements in Yukon. With that in mind, we are prepared to proceed with that.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Fournier. Thank you, Mr. Mitander. Mrs. Hardy, you have five minutes.

[English]

You have five minutes.

Ms. Louise Hardy: Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Mitander, could you put this in the perspective of this legislation and what it means to self-determination, since it is supported? What does it mean politically for the first nations, as a people, to make their own decisions?

Mr. Victor Mitander: It provides for a land base that will be negotiated as part of the first nation final self-governing agreement. But it provides the ability of first nations to control, manage and determine what should occur on its settlement lands.

At the same time, there is the ability for first nations to participate on a government-to-government basis in dealing with the issues that affect all Yukoners. It also provides the ability of first nation governments and the Government of Yukon to deal with providing a framework for our future base in Yukon to provide for co-operation and partnership on a governance-to-governance basis.

I think the big difference is that the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development will no longer have the kind of say it has had in the past. The treaties and the movement toward the transfer of lands and resources from Canada to Yukon provide the ability of made-in-Yukon solutions in the best interest of Yukon people for today and in the long term.

Ms. Louise Hardy: Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mrs. Hardy.

Mr. Keddy, please.

[English]

Mr. Gerald Keddy: Thank you.

I didn't quite understand Ann Bayne from the Liard First Nation. You talked about the land claims with the Liard that have not been ratified and are still ongoing. You talked about oil and gas lands that potentially show some of the best potential for the Yukon. Can you elaborate on that a bit?

Chief Ann Bayne: Just to elaborate further on it, LFN has not concluded its land claims agreement, but we've been told by geologists the highest potential for oil and gas is in the southeast Yukon and in the area of the Liard First Nation traditional territory. The only oil and gas in existence right now is in the Kotaneelee oil fields, and that's in our traditional territory.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: Thank you very much for your answer there.

I have one final question for Victor Mitander on the revenue sharing agreement and the future of agreements, with the devolution of the federal responsibility. I think most parties at the table understand this is a necessity for progress in the Yukon and all territorial governments in Canada.

• 1900

But my question is a bit for those of us on the panel who are not familiar with the north. You made the statement that it would be government-to-government, the Yukon government dealing directly with the first nations governments. In order for that to proceed, the federal government have to finish their responsibility for the land claims with the existing claims that haven't been settled.

Are you looking at any timeframe in the Yukon in which you think there's some possibility that we may reach an end, that we actually may reach consensus on the remaining land claims? I know it is a tough question, but is there any idea of where we'll be?

Mr. Victor Mitander: I remember that away back in 1973, on February 14, that same question was asked by the Prime Minister, and one of our young lawyers at that point in time said that it ought to take about six to eight months. Unfortunately, that was 25 years ago.

In the context of the remaining Yukon first nations final and self-governing agreements, discussions have been ongoing. As I've indicated, three first nations are expected to conclude their negotiations and then would have to have that package recommended as part of the information, and ultimately the ratification of that agreement.

For example, White River and Beaver Creek and Dawson First Nations will be concluding their agreements here in the next month or so. We expect that the negotiation would be finished, and then the process of information and ratification would take some months, and then a ratification vote, and then all of the stuff that is required to go into the federal system as part of the overall package will have to be completed. We're hoping it will be done as quickly as possible thereafter.

Liard First Nation and Ross River are at the table. Carcross/Tagish First Nation is one of the first nations that's remaining to be concluded, and they have targeted January for a final self-government agreement and April of next year for a final agreement. So the primary focus would be for Kwanlin Dun, which is sort of up in the air at this point in time.

We're concerned about concluding these agreements. I think, based on the discussions we've had with the Government of Yukon and with the federal minister, that there's a willingness to proceed as quickly as possible to conclude these agreements as one of the highest priorities.

So based upon that, there is a lot of work being provided to concluding these remaining first nations final and self-governing agreements.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Messrs. Mitander and Keddy. The floor will be to Mr. Bryden for five minutes and he will be followed by Mr. McNally.

[English]

Mr. John Bryden: I was most interested in hearing the remarks about the co-operation that's going to exist between the territorial government and the Yukon first nations.

Am I to understand from what I heard that this will be an equal partnership in the sense that the territorial government will have a say on the exploitation of Yukon first nations' land and vice versa, that the Yukon first nations will have a say on the territorial government's exploitation of resources on its territory, on its land? I wasn't sure of exactly what I was hearing there.

Mr. Maurice Albert: The regime, the Yukon Oil and Gas Act, which will be the legislation that regulates all oil and gas on Yukon, is designed in co-operation with the first nations and is intended to represent the regulatory regime for all of Yukon's oil and gas lands, Yukon first nations' as well as crown land. There is provision in the bill for a first nation that does not agree with the common regime to pass its own legislation and as such replace the common regime.

• 1905

The intention in the legislation is also, as far as a proprietary regime is concerned, that there would be one common regime. Again, parties can unilaterally decide to pass their own legislation and, as such, opt out of the common regime.

As for the decisional authority, as the owners of the resources on category A settlement land, the first nations will have the authority to make the decisions regarding the oil and gas development. It's the same with the Yukon government; Yukon government will be making the final decisions regarding the oil and gas development on crown land.

The intent, though, is that we would have a co-operative approach in the development of the oil and gas lands, that it would be done through co-operation to the extent possible.

Mr. John Bryden: I gather from this—and it sounds very encouraging, not to say exciting—that what's perceived here is to develop the resources for the people of the Yukon in a very literal sense. As such, presumably the oil and gas agreement will be a model for other resources down the way—for instance, mineral resources.

When I visited the Yukon, I was struck by the fact that anyone can stake a claim for mineral resources, for gold, including non-citizens, people from other countries such as Americans, and apparently this goes back right to the Dawson City and the gold rush days. Then I was told that this is not what occurs in the United States, that you have to be a citizen to stake a claim in the United States.

If the oil and gas accord is a model for what may happen with minerals later, are you giving any thought to restricting the right of staking claims or of exploiting the resources to Canadians or possibly to Yukoners?

Mr. Maurice Albert: You're correct that the oil and gas accord is intended to be a model for the other resources. In fact, currently there is work being conducted on the forestry sector as far as co-operation between first nations and the Yukon government is concerned in developing a common regime for the development of the forest sector.

We're also aware, and it is within our plan, that we would undertake a similar process for the minerals. However, at this point in time, as I'm sure you know, there are a lot of mining companies currently operating in Yukon, and the intent in developing a common regime would obviously have to include existing mining operations.

So the intent is that, yes, we do want to follow up using the common regime approach for all resource bases. We have not, however, undertaken any discussions at this time, nor are we in a position to be able to give any kind of direction as to what would be the outcome of that work to come.

Mr. John Bryden: I'm not sure you really answered my question, at least the core of my question, which was directed to the danger that third parties outside the country may come in and exploit these resources through ownership means, simply because there currently appears to exist a lack of controls on foreign nationals coming in and actually staking claims. I found that a remarkable feature, especially as I was told—and I was only told this, I don't know it absolutely—that other countries such as the United States have definite restrictions on who gets to stake a claim when it comes to resources.

So I will just repeat the question: is this an area you're looking at, or is it an area of concern, if the idea is to develop these resources for the people of the Yukon, be they first nations or be they people other than first nations?

Mr. Maurice Albert: Currently the Yukon government does not have jurisdiction on mining. The Yukon government does not have the legislative powers to be able to legislate the mineral industries. The federal government, through DIAND, has the authority to make all legislation regulating mining.

• 1910

There is currently a devolution process under way that would transfer this particular head of power over minerals, as well as forestry and a number of other areas, to the Yukon government. It is premature at this point in time for anybody to state a position as to what would be the outcome of a review and a development of a common minerals regime.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Messrs. Bryden and Albert.

Mr. Konrad is going to share his allotted time with Mr. McNally. Mr. Konrad, you have five minutes.

[English]

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Thank you.

My question is directed to you, Mr. Mitander. With respect to the first nations that are still negotiating, is it simply land area, or does it also involve powers?

Mr. Victor Mitander: In terms of the process for finalizing the outstanding respective first nations final and self-government agreements, the Umbrella Final Agreement provides the basis for the negotiations of the final agreement. What usually takes place in a final agreement are discussions to deal with the specific provisions that reflect a particular interest or concern on each of the chapters. Those things are negotiated with respect to each of those particular heads.

Then there is a process that would have to be undertaken in concluding a self-government agreement, which is pretty well settled. There are matters that have to be dealt with that are minor in nature.

Then, of course, there is the land selection process, the negotiations of where, and how much, the land would be reflected in a roadblock sense as well as site specifics, such as fishing camps and trappers' cabins, and community lands.

That's generally the process undertaken in concluding the final and self-government agreements.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: So the self-government agreements are finalized in the current form. It's not a living document that's going to be negotiated for further powers. I presume there's enough in there to handle everything that's coming?

Mr. Victor Mitander: I think we've set that in a fairly important process down the road.

One of the things members of the standing committee should be aware of is that the self-government agreements are not Constitution-protected while the land claim agreements are. In that context, that is the issue that's still outstanding—the protection of the self-government agreements that have yet to be negotiated.

We have embarked on a process with the Government of Canada and the Government of Yukon to deal within the context of the inherent right policy. So at some point in time we're hopeful that we can “inherentize” the self-government agreement, sooner than later, we hope.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Mitander. Mr. McNally.

[English]

Mr. Grant McNally: I would like to ask Mr. Albert about the revenue sharing. It's my understanding that it's a 60-40 split between the federal government and the Yukon government. This is information we received this morning. I hope I have all the decimals in the right spot; I know I was a bit off on the land one.

There was a cap of $2 million for the first nations groups—do I have that one right?—with a possible sliding scale up to 80% of revenues going to the federal government as more development increases.

Mr. Maurice Albert: The way the Umbrella Final Agreement is written right now, you're correct, there is a 60-40 split on royalties coming out of oil and gas. The share of royalties goes 60% to Canada, 40% to Yukon. Of the 40% share to Yukon, the first $2 million is shared 50-50 with the first nations and the royalties in excess of $2 million are shared 10% thereafter.

• 1915

Mr. Grant McNally: That's 10% for aboriginal people, first nations people, 90% for Yukon of anything in excess of $2 million?

Mr. Maurice Albert: Ten percent of the Yukon's share. Initially, the Yukon share is going to be—

Mr. Grant McNally: Have I got that right?

Mr. Maurice Albert: The bottom line is that the federal government does not share its royalties with the first nations.

Mr. Grant McNally: No, it comes out of the Yukon share, right?

Mr. Maurice Albert: Yes.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Messrs. Albert and McNally.

Mr. Fournier.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: My question is for Mrs. Ann Bayne.

What is your opinion on the Bill and on its impact on the lands of first nations who have not yet signed an agreement with the federal government about self-government and land claims?

[English]

Chief Ann Bayne: Our opinion on the bill is that we give consent to the bill. We support the bill because of our participation with the working group in developing the common regime. We feel that our concerns are protected in that the Yukon government must seek our consent because we don't have a final agreement if they want to do any development.

[Translation]

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: So Mrs. Bayne, you are satisfied with the guaranties given to you in this respect by the federal government and the Yukon government.

[English]

Chief Ann Bayne: Yes, we are. It's been a long-standing policy with the federal government that they seek consent from the first nation before any development happens. It gives us comfort to know that's going to be passed to the Yukon government. So with that we're feeling sure we'll be protected.

[Translation]

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: This time my question is for Mr. Mitander.

According to what you said tonight, you seem to be satisfied with the final agreement signed by the first nations of Yukon, but I would like to know exactly what benefits your people are going to get from the resource revenue-sharing provisions of this agreement.

[English]

Mr. Victor Mitander: As I mentioned at the beginning of my presentation, the resource revenue-sharing provisions of that particular chapter won't provide resource revenue-sharing moneys to first nation governments until the transfer of oil and gas lands, for example, has taken place from Canada to the Yukon government. It would provide the ability of first nations to access those funds that have been held in trust. Of course, in terms of the resource revenue-sharing chapter, we would certainly like to have the federal government share more of the revenues that are being generated from the oil and gas in Yukon.

• 1920

I think it also provides some certainty in the context of an effective and competitive oil and gas regime, which would provide certainly for all Yukoners. First nations would be part of those developments that may take place in the future.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Keddy.

[English]

Mr. Gerald Keddy: I have one very brief question for someone from the territorial government. I don't care who answers it.

On the resource revenue sharing you've alluded to, how much of the oil and gas revenue coming from the leases in the Yukon goes to the federal government now?

Mr. Maurice Albert: The first $3 million of royalties generated in the year is exempted from sharing. The first $3 million comes to the Yukon government, of which 50% of the first $2 million is shared with the Yukon first nations.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: Do you have that in a percent, how much actually goes to the feds and how much actually stays in the Yukon? I don't care if it's divided between the Yukon first nations and the Yukon territorial government, but how much goes to the federal government and how much stays in Yukon? Do we know that?

Mr. Maurice Albert: The two producing wells right now are not generating in excess of the $3 million of royalties. So 100% of the royalties coming from the two wells in the southeast Yukon are currently staying in the Yukon.

The Chairman: Madame Karetak-Lindell.

Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell: Most of my questions were addressed by Mr. Fournier, but I still have one question. It refers to the government or the IRC area that is currently held by the Inuvialuit in the Northwest Territories.

Would their concerns have been addressed at all through any of your negotiations as the first nations? Were you asked to represent any of their concerns in the negotiations for the oil and gas bill?

Mr. Maurice Albert: Part of the consultation conducted by the federal government included joint consultation between the Inuvialuit and the Yukon government and the federal government. The Yukon government has undertaken in the territorial legislation for oil and gas to maintain the current federal withdrawal orders that are currently withdrawn under the federal statute.

So as such, yes, we feel we have met the requirements of the Inuvialuit as far as withdrawing the lands or maintaining the land withdrawals is concerned.

The Chairman: Monsieur Bryden.

Mr. John Bryden: I have another question in the context of what was being asked. I understand that 10% of 40% of the revenues goes to the first nations. How is that divided? Do all the first nations, the self-governing bodies, in the Yukon share equally in these revenues? What happens if a particular first nation group has no oil and gas resources on its land? Does it get to share in the revenues that are accorded to another self-governing nation that has lots of oil and gas on its land?

Mr. Maurice Albert: Chapter 23 of the land claims final agreement provides for the formula on the cost sharing.

The answer is yes. First nations that do not have oil and gas resources will get to share in the royalties. The percentages of royalties that are shared are assigned in the Umbrella Final Agreement. So there is a chapter of the agreement that stipulates what cost-sharing ratio each first nation will get from the oil and gas royalties.

• 1925

Mr. John Bryden: A final question is: would it be prudent for us on this committee to consider amending the bill in any way that would put guarantees into the bill that Canadians remain in control of the resources we're talking about, following the model of the United States? Is this something we should be looking at as the federal government?

Mr. Maurice Albert: We believe the Yukon government, as well as the first nations, should have the ability and the autonomy to be able to dispose of the resource in a manner that best meets the respective levels of governments' objectives in doing that. So my short answer to your question would be no.

Mr. John Bryden: I wonder. Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Konrad.

[English]

Mr. Derrek Konrad: This is a quick question. I'm sure it won't take long to answer.

You stated earlier that no development has been permitted for the last 15 years while the agreements were negotiated. I wonder if there's any estimate of how much revenue has been lost or delayed getting to the people due to that moratorium.

Mr. Maurice Albert: It is impossible to say. We would like to believe that the revenues have not been lost; they have just been deferred. They're still in the ground.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Still in the ground, not in peoples' banks.

That's all.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Wilfert, one last question.

[English]

Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Mr. Albert, following up on Mr. Bryden's question, I certainly support the transfer.

The concern I have is that the national interest at some point has to be protected, and I'm a little troubled by your comment that in fact the disposal of oil and gas reserves in the Yukon, which are fairly vast, would be made at the discretion of the Government of the Yukon and first nations, and that the national interest, which I think should supersede, would not come into play. I think the notion that non-Canadians would have the ability to dispose of oil and gas revenues, or that the Yukon government and first nations would have that authority, is something I certainly would have concerns over. So your answer to Mr. Bryden was not very comforting.

Mr. Maurice Albert: Our view on the oil and gas is that we would like to have as competitive a regime as possible in order to be able to attract investment in Yukon for the development of the oil and gas. With a high unemployment rate in the Yukon and our traditional reliance on mining, we view the oil and gas industry as a very effective industry to allow for the diversification of the traditional industries, if you wish, in Yukon.

Our aspirations, as the Yukon territory, is obviously to achieve self-sufficiency. We fully recognize that we are not close to self-sufficiency at this particular point in time, but we need to make some beginnings.

The premise of my answer was that we feel that Yukon should have the same authority and autonomy, if you wish, in disposing of oil and gas leases as the provinces have.

The developer of the oil and gas obviously will be companies that are interested in investing in Yukon. Yukon, as well as Canada, will get its share of the revenues through the taxation, through the royalty regime, and obviously the companies will be regulated as well, and in certain cases more strenuously than in the provinces.

• 1930

Mr. Bryon Wilfert: Mr. Chairman, am I to understand from that answer that the provinces have the ability at this time to dispose of oil and gas reserves in leases to non-Canadians? Or did I misunderstand the answer? If that is—

Mr. Maurice Albert: Our understanding is that provinces regulate the disposition of oil and gas leases on shore. So on land, yes, it is within the provincial government's jurisdiction. If it's offshore, it is the federal government's jurisdiction.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Fournier, a short question.

Mr. Ghislain Fournier: I want to say that you share a common point of view with the people of Quebec. I want to distance myself from the members on the other side and tell you that your comment doesn't concern me because the people from my party are satisfied when the central government gives more responsibilities to the provinces.

You said, sir, that the Yukon government should be able to achieve this. In Quebec, we share this point of view. We think you have the ability to determine how and when you are going to take charge of development activities.

You said the Yukon government "should". Can you say that you have the capacity to do it? We think you have this capacity just as the Quebec people have the capacity to manage and develop themselves their natural resources.

[English]

Mr. Maurice Albert: Briefly, the answer is no. The Yukon government does not have the legislative authority to regulate or to dispose of natural resources, whether they are minerals, oil and gas or forestry resources. This particular responsibility for natural resources currently resides with the federal government.

There is a process under way right now which is being negotiated between the Yukon government and Canada for the devolution of these authorities. The passage of Bill C-8 and the concurrent passage of the Yukon oil and gas legislation would effectively transfer or devolve the authority for oil and gas. Bill C-8 is one example of the type of devolution that is currently under way.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Do you have other questions?

Thank you very much on behalf of all the members and the support staff. It was an honour for us all, Messrs. Albert and Mitander and Mrs. Bayne, to speak to you live in Whitehorse, Yukon. Thank you for sharing your expertise. We take this opportunity to wish you an excellent winter and a happy Holiday season, both being just around the corner.

If you want to stay on line, we will be pleased to let you hear our debate on the Bill as we proceed to the clause by clause review.

Thank you very much. We will be pleased to hear from you soon.

Have you got anything else to add in Whitehorse?

[English]

Mr. Maurice Albert: No, Mr. Chairman, except to thank you and the committee for allowing us to participate in this process. We are honoured to have been able to participate and we thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

[Translation]

Thank you very much.

We shall go on with the review of clause 2.

I would like to clarify one point. I want to know if we can proceed with the clause by clause review and if any member has amendments to propose for some clauses of the Bill.

• 1935

We shall start the clause by clause review of the Bill.

(Clauses 2 to 28 inclusively are agreed to)

The Chairman: Have we got agreement on clause 1?

[English]

(Clause 1 agreed to)

[Translation]

The Chairman: Have we got agreement on the preamble?

(Preamble agreed to)

The Chairman: Is the title adopted?

(Title agreed to)

The Chairman: Do you agree to report the Bill to the House?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

[English]

Thank you very much. Surprise!

[Translation]

I want to thank all the officials and all the political advisors who collaborated on this project. I thank you for your expertise. I also wish to thank the interpreters, our support staff and our research service. Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.