AAND Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES AUTOCHTONES ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DU GRAND NORD

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, May 5, 1998

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[Translation]

The Chairman (Mr. Guy Saint-Julien (Abitibi, Lib.)): We apologize for the slight delay. Today, in accordance with Subsection 108(2) of the Rules, we will be looking at native economic development.

We have with us today witnesses from the Inuit Tapirisat Association of Canada. Their spokespersons are their President, Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak and Mr. Alan Braidek. We also have Mr. Ken Drolet, Mr. Don Axford and Mr. Don Allard from Pan Arctic Inuit Logistics.

Ms. Eegeesiak, do you have a statement to make?

[English]

You have ten minutes for your statement.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak (President, Inuit Tapirisat of Canada): Ten minutes? Okay.

[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in her native language]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Congratulations on representing a very proud people, being the Inuit of northern Quebec.

I am the president of Inuit Tapirisat of Canada. I would like to reintroduce some of the people in the background who are also here with ITC. Wenda Watteyne works as a policy adviser for us. Michael McGoldrick works for Makivik Corporation. Terry Forth works for Nunasi Corporation in Iqaluit. Alan Braidek works as my executive director. Ken Drolet works as the executive director for Pan Arctic Inuit Logistics. Don Allard also works for Makivik Corporation.

I'll make my opening remarks and then Ken will take over. We'll answer questions together on behalf of ITC and PAIL.

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Thank you for the invitation for ITC to make a presentation to this committee. We trust our participation and our presentation will assist you in your examination of the ways “by which Aboriginal peoples, the private sector and governments can promote economic development and skills training to create employment and greater opportunities” in the aboriginal communities of Canada.

Speaking personally, I am very pleased to see that you have chosen to focus your attention over the next few weeks on the topic of aboriginal economic development. I am also pleased to be informed that you will be visiting several communities in the north to see firsthand the challenges to economic development in our communities and to hear from local and regional Inuit organizations.

I look forward to seeing your recommendations after you have completed your study, and I appreciate your interest in this important area of federal government policies, programs and funding structures. There is a critical need in the Inuit communities of Canada for further consideration of these issues.

Before I proceed, I will briefly describe the mandate and structure of ITC, for those of you who are not familiar. ITC went through a reorganization last year. ITC is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the needs and aspirations of Canada's Inuit. It was formed in 1971 and represents, through the land claims organizations, more than 41,000 Inuit living in 55 Inuit communities located in the Northwest Territories, Labrador and Quebec.

For your further information, the Inuit refer to the portion of Quebec located above the 55th parallel as the Inuit land claim settlement region of Nunavik. As well, the Inuit have always considered the current Northwest Territories to have four Inuit settlement and cultural regions: the Qiqiktani region, or Baffin; the Kivalliq region, also known as Keewatin; the Kitikmeot; and the Inuvialuit region.

You may know that the Qiqiktani, Kivalliq and Kitikmeot regions make up Nunavut. The communities along the northern coast of Labrador constitute the traditional settlement area of the Labrador Inuit. Taken together, these six regions constitute the Inuit homeland, which is linked by many ties of language, culture and ways of community life.

We brought along an information pamphlet about the Inuit that has a map of the Inuit settlement regions as well as more information on Inuit. This was published by ITC and DIAND. The map is on page 11.

As a further challenge, our Inuit homeland has also subdivided into four separate comprehensive land claim settlement agreement areas. Three of these agreements have now been finalized, while the fourth, related to the Labrador Inuit, is currently under negotiation. I look forward to that land claims agreement and to celebrating it before my term is over.

The four Inuit land claim settlement organizations, which collectively represent all the Inuit of Canada, are represented on the board of ITC in order to effectively coordinate the regional and national perspectives of Inuit. Our international interests are represented through the Inuit Circumpolar Conference, which is accredited by the United Nations and other bodies as an international non-governmental organization.

ITC plays an important role as a national voice for Inuit with regard to domestic policy issues, and the organization addresses many issues of vital importance to the preservation of the Inuit identity, culture and way of life.

ITC is also constantly made aware of the fact that our Inuit homeland has been divided—not by us—into several different provincial and territorial jurisdictions. This has affected the way our aboriginal land claims have been negotiated, settled and implemented, and has also greatly affected the way federal government and provincial-territorial programs have been delivered to the Inuit communities of Canada.

As a general rule, therefore, and to provide a starting point in my comments to you about economic development in the Inuit communities, I would like to emphasize to you as forcefully as I can that Inuit are tired of being compartmentalized and subdivided for jurisdictional and administrative reasons when it comes to federal-provincial-territorial policy frameworks within which we are expected to neatly fit and in relation to the many departmental program structures to which we must inevitably relate.

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We would like instead to work with you, the political representatives of the federal government, together with your administrative officials, to develop a regime of Inuit-specific programs, which will be applicable to Inuit organizations at the national and regional levels and which will be used to provide effective program delivery mechanisms for the Inuit communities.

I'd also like to remind you that Inuit, unlike first nations people on reserves, pay taxes. We pay income taxes. We pay GST. We pay the provincial taxes.

For example, a skidoo purchased in Ottawa may cost $5,000, but by the time that same skidoo is sold in Iqaluit it would likely cost $9,000. In addition, the purchaser must pay the shipping costs. Thus Inuit pay taxes on the $9,000 purchase price and the shipping costs.

That applies to all so-called hidden taxes, like taxes on cigarettes, fuel and liquor. We pay taxes.

To turn more specifically to the questions before this committee, it seems to me that the issues related to aboriginal economic development have been studied fairly exhaustively over the past few years without there being many actual government policy or programming initiatives being undertaken to address Inuit issues. When we look at the reports of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples or of the National Aboriginal Financing Task Force, we can see that many comprehensive studies have been undertaken on these issues and that excellent recommendations for government action have been put forward for consideration.

Similarly, we can see that the federal government's response to RCAP, Gathering Strength: Canada's Aboriginal Action Plan, emphasized that “elements of the action plan will be applied to strengthen northern communities and build a stronger economic base for the North”. They also committed to a new relationship with Inuit.

With those reports and their many specific recommendation in mind, I would like to put forward three priority areas for consideration by your committee in relation to the development and promotion of Inuit economic development. These are just some of the priority areas we'd like you to address.

I'd like to propose that national and regional Inuit organizations undertake a major initiative to work together with you, the representatives of the Government of Canada, to develop the policy frameworks and program delivery mechanisms appropriate to each of the three following priority areas. We see work on these priority areas as the commencement of the government-to-government relationship envisaged by the federal response to the royal commission report as it relates to community economic development. We also see these initiatives as the most effective way to implement federal government policies, programs and funding activities as they apply to Inuit.

The first priority should be to develop mechanisms for the effective delivery of business advisory services in all Inuit communities in the north. Today, these services are delivered in a variety of ways in the different Inuit regions and with varying degrees of effectiveness. We would like to develop a comprehensive program of business advisory services directed at the various Inuit communities of Canada that combines professional expertise with detailed knowledge of the social, cultural and economic realities of living and working in the north. When we deal with government, a lot of times the officials we deal with don't know anything about our situation in the north and we have to deal with them over the phone. These business advisory services should also be delivered by the appropriate regional Inuit organizations, with adequate funding being provided by the senior levels of government.

The second area of priority emphasis should be to develop the knowledge and information base necessary for Inuit entrepreneurs and businesses to effectively access local, regional, national and international markets. Inuit firms are already active in many of these markets in a wide variety of product and service areas, but much more remains to be done in relation to carrying out research studies to identify specific business opportunities and very specialized markets that could be pursued by Inuit companies on a viable commercial basis, especially those business ventures that might have export market potential.

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Also, as an important sub-set of those market access studies, much further research needs to be done on identifying key strategic government procurement initiatives that could be used to assist Inuit firms, possibly in partnering or joint venture relationships with non-Inuit firms, to participate more fully in the various regional economies of the north and in the larger national economic life of Canada. The successful participation of the Inuit in the federal government contract for the operation and maintenance of the North Warning system, Through the creation of PAIL, is an excellent example of the importance that strategic federal government procurement initiatives can play in promoting and developing Inuit economic development and fulfilling aboriginal employment objectives.

As a third area of priority, I propose we look in much more detail at the issue of access to capital. There is an urgent need for further studies and consultations to be undertaken to see how the regional Inuit organizations, applicable government agencies, and the financial services industry can best work together to find creative ways to make financial services available to all the Inuit communities of the north, regardless of their size or remoteness. Mechanisms must be found, in consultation with regional Inuit organizations, to provide readily available sources of equity capital to Inuit businesses and entrepreneurs to meet the needs of all sizes of businesses and in all sectors of the economy. These sources of business capital should be available through all stages of the business cycle, from feasibility studies to start-up financing, to review of additional markets or products, and to expansion, among other things.

In order to initiate serious discussion on these three priority areas, I would further propose a series of collaborative forums be undertaken in the six Inuit regions of Canada that would bring together representatives of the regional Inuit organizations, the regional Inuit development corporations, appropriate government officials, and applicable regional and national financial institutions. The objective of these regional forums would be to develop specific proposals for the implementation of Inuit-specific policies, programs and administrative structures for the development and promotion of Inuit economic development within the region, taking into account the three identified areas.

As a basic principle to be followed in developing any program delivery structures or funding mechanisms to promote Inuit economic development, it will be insisted that the regional Inuit organizations become the primary program delivery bodies. Effective coordinating mechanisms, however, must be developed amongst the regional Inuit organizations, government departments and agencies, and the business structures within the region. The overall objective will be to establish viable Inuit-owned business ventures, capable of pursuing business opportunities either on their own or in partnership and joint venture relationships with non-Inuit companies or with southern business interests.

Funding of the proposed economic development mechanisms to be located within the regional Inuit organizations should also, to the greatest possible extent, be by way of multi-year interdepartmental funding arrangements that take into account the high cost of program delivery in the north.

As you are probably aware, transportation to the Inuit communities of northern Canada is only available on a year-round basis by air, and on a short-seasonal basis by sea-lift. This fact profoundly affects the economic development potential as well as the cost of delivery of all types of services.

There is, however, a new “road” of sorts that is starting to link Inuit to each other and to the outside world. The potential for the Internet to shrink distances and make vast sources of information available in even the smallest and most remote communities has become rapidly apparent to many Inuit and to many people. When this is available and accessible in all our communities, properly structured program delivery mechanisms in support of Inuit economic development could similarly take advantage of this technology to effectively provide business advisory services and other programs to remote northern communities.

In addition, that technology permits the collection and dissemination of information on Inuit firms and the goods and services they provide. This information could be used by other Inuit firms, regional planning bodies, government procurement agencies and non-Inuit businesses interested in pursuing joint venture arrangements with appropriate Inuit companies. These technologies and how they could support effective program delivery mechanisms should be explored by government and the regional Inuit organizations as part of the development of the proposed Inuit-specific economic development policy and program delivery initiatives.

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To summarize, we would like your committee to consider the delivery of business advisory services, accessibility to markets, access to capital and especially fairness in taxation as priorities for Inuit. We look forward to seeing your recommendations on how the federal government policies and programs can be more effectively applied to Inuit and to the development and promotion of local employment opportunities and economic development in Inuit communities.

We also brought with us a paper we submitted to DIAND entitled “Proposed Items for Discussion Leading to an Inuit-specific Action Plan”. The first nations have already developed their own action plan with government. It's already been published and we have yet to start negotiations with the department.

As always, ITC is ready to work with this committee and the government on the development and implementation of Inuit-specific policy and programs.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Madam President, I would also like to congratulate you on your statement.

[English]

Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

[Translation]

The Chairman: I would like to take a minute, in ending up, with Ms. Eegeesiak. I would like to thank you for the brochure you brought us about informing readers about your culture and history. It's very well done and we really appreciate it.

Mr. Bryden.

[English]

Mr. John Bryden: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to move a motion that would change the pattern of questioning we have had at the committee for some time to make it conform to the pattern of questioning that exists at other committees. That motion is that the chair, during the questioning of witnesses, recognize an opposition member and then a government member alternatively, one at a time, rather than the practice that exists now, that all the opposition members get to ask a question before a government member.

I'd like to formally move that motion, and I think the parliamentary secretary will second that motion if I can give it to you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Bryden, are you presenting this motion because members have several Parliamentary Committee meetings and that will allow you to go to other committees? Is it also because you're afraid you won't have a chance to speak if you leave it too late?

[English]

Mr. John Bryden: No, Mr. Chairman. In fact, I'm making the motion to bring the questioning into conformity with the practice at other committees, whereby members on both sides have equal opportunity, regardless of the numbers they have in the House.

Right now, we have a situation where each member of the opposition has an equal opportunity, as a result of his party affiliation, to ask a question to any given Liberal member, and that actually works to the disadvantage of the government members on this committee because you have been previously, Mr. Chairman, systematically going to each opposition member before going to a Liberal member, yet we on this side of the table number have an equal number of people to those the opposition side of the table. Even though the government members are in a majority politically, we've been in a minority in terms of our ability to ask questions at this committee, so I'd like to address that.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Bryden.

Mr. Keddy.

[English]

Mr. Gerald Keddy (South Shore, PC): Just quickly, Mr. Chairman, I think it's fairly obvious that we should put this discussion off until after our committee has left so we have an opportunity to get on with that.

The reason for the voting pattern is because each party has equal opportunity, not each person, to make their presentation. If we go to one opposition member and then one government member, we will run into the problem where your Conservative member, who is me, sitting at the end of the table at the end of the day may not get the question asked. So that's my concern.

I'm willing to discuss this, but I think we should discuss it at another time and defer the vote until we don't have other people here, because I have a lot more I want to say about it.

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[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): As far as I'm concerned, I don't think we should discuss that in front of our guests but we should do so later, if we have time. You can tell me if you want us to discuss it now or later. Do you have a decision to make on that? I would also like to debate it, but I don't think that would be very polite, seeing as how we have guests here.

The Chairman: Mr. McNally.

[English]

Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, Ref.): I would agree with my colleagues here. I'd be willing to discuss, but I think it might be better handled at a different time.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Mr. Patry.

Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[English]

I think Mr. Bryden has a point. It's quite important, too, because we are at a disadvantage. In fact, in looking at what has happened with previous witnesses, our first question sometimes comes an hour after we've started the discussion.

I think the most important thing is to be sure, when the clerk tells our witnesses they have five- or ten-minute preambles, not to go over that time, and be sure, after that when the chair allocates the time for each member, if it's five minutes, it doesn't go to ten or fifteen minutes.

I think it's up to the chair, but I fully agree with the motion of Mr. Bryden. People on our side feel we are very much disadvantaged by the fact that we're not asking any questions sometimes or only asking one question within an hour. I think it's fair for all the members—I try not to ask any questions as a PS, just to be sure I give all the time to the other members.

If the opposition would like to get an agreement from all sides, it's not a question of voting for or against it. Perhaps we could try today to go for five minutes and see if it works or doesn't work, but at least give it a trial. If it suits all the members, I feel we could stick with this.

The Chairman: Mr. Finlay.

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): In deference to our witnesses and what we want to discuss here, I go along with everything that's been said. But if we don't stop this, we won't get to questions.

I move we table the motion and take it up at another time.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Finlay. We did in fact receive a motion but I must tell you that we don't have a quorum so we can't put it to a vote. So we would like to debate that later when we don't have witnesses here, because I think it would be better for us to have a good, open discussion among members.

[English]

The quorum is nine, neuf.

[Translation]

Please excuse me, but we're going to Question Period. You have a statement to make, Mr. Drolet?

[English]

Do you have a statement?

[Translation]

Mr. Ken Drolet (President, Pan Arctic Inuit Logistics Company): Mr. Chairman, members of the Standing Committee, good day. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to tell you about Pan Arctic Inuit Logistics whose acronym is SPLI - PAIL, in English.

First, we'll give some background on the subject. Then, we'll talk about our experience in the area of economic development. We'll talk about issues concerning economic development as it relates to the Inuit and the North. And we will present some recommendations on the way present and future purchasing programs and activities could be improved for the greater good of the Inuit and the Government of Canada.

[English]

PAIL is a unique and very successful business venture representing the collective interests and business strengths of the Inuit of Canada. We are owned equally by the four Inuit groups: the Inuvialuit of the western Arctic; the Inuit of Nunavut; the Inuit of Nunavik, or northern Quebec; and the Inuit of Labrador, as represented by their respective development corporations. PAIL was formed in 1994 to facilitate the significant involvement of Inuit in operations and maintenance of the North Warning System on behalf of the Department of National Defence.

It is of interest to note that 46 of the 47 North Warning System radar sites, located across Canada's Arctic and down the Labrador coast, are within three of the four Inuit land claim settlement areas. Our involvement is in the form of a joint venture with a non-aboriginal Canadian firm, Frontec Corporation of Edmonton. One of the key objectives for PAIL in the current five-year contract is to train qualified Inuit for employment in the North Warning System's workforce, leading to equal participation by Inuit in this pan-Arctic activity.

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Provisions in the applicable comprehensive land claim agreements provide a critical framework for the development of Inuit economy through training, development and participation in projects and activities associated with government-related procurements.

Many of the early teething problems encountered in implementing the spirit and intent of those commitments are being overcome, and Treasury Board has issued directives and guidance to operating departments to make sure that specific provisions are an effective tool for ensuring that qualified aboriginal firms have the opportunity to participate in activities associated with their communities and regions.

In selected cases the strategic use of major government programs can focus significant resources and initiatives to meet critical socio-economic objectives and overcome existing deficiencies. Such was the case for the North Warning System when Parliament made northern and Inuit benefits the major secondary objective for this significant defence program back in 1984. That led to extensive involvement of Inuit business and individuals in the capital phase of the project, particularly in construction, transportation and related logistic activities. More recently the focus has shifted to Inuit involvement in all facets of the ongoing operation, maintenance and support activities for the system, which is located primarily within their settlement areas.

Without the cooperative involvement of all Inuit groups in the North Warning System via a collective arrangement like PAIL, Inuit involvement would have been fragmented and almost certainly relegated to bit roles, which would have done little to enhance Inuit capabilities to fully participate in major development activities or contribute to their economic development.

Not only are Inuit obtaining valuable training in a modern complex system, with many joining the North Warning System workforce on a full-time basis, but they are also developing portable skills and experience that are relevant to many similar business activities within the northern and national economy.

The development of a significant pool of skilled individuals is critical to realizing sustainable economic development for the benefit of all Inuit. Of course, it's not possible to develop such a pool in the many diverse fields associated with complex technical systems in a very short timeframe.

Joint ventures and other forms of strategic alliances with established non-aboriginal firms can provide the mechanism for developing the requisite skills and experience necessary to assume a growing role in such demanding activities. This is precisely what is happening through our joint ventures with Frontec for operation and maintenance of the North Warning System.

The positive experience of cooperative Inuit involvement in the North Warning System through PAIL has led to the use of this alliance in the more general context of Inuit business development. Many of the functions previously assigned to the Canadian Inuit Business Development Council have now been added to PAIL's mandate. Our role includes coordination with ITC and ICC organizations on economic and business development initiatives at the national level for Inuit. For example, PAIL makes use of its Internet web site to highlight information concerning business and employment opportunities of interest to all Inuit. We also hope to work closely with government and various Inuit agencies to implement a comprehensive and effective Inuit business database in the near future.

The PAIL involvement in the North Warning System has been of considerable benefit to Inuit. For example, much of the revenue generated has flowed back to Inuit development corporations, where it's been used to finance a variety of business ventures and economic development activities pertinent to each of those four regions. Our commitment in the existing North Warning System contract was to expend a minimum of $ 6 million channelled into business development, and that objective has already been met. In fact, over 85—and I was using an earlier number—Inuit have now participated in on-the-job training, with the majority of graduates finding gainful employment both within the North Warning System workforce and elsewhere.

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There are, however, a number of impediments to more effective economic development performance that have become very apparent through lessons learned in our North Warning System experience. Overall, progress is being made, but the following is a list of some of the issues that warrant particular attention to make further improvements.

The area of academic background: While the training program for Inuit has been a success, the shortage of Inuit graduates from high school with the requisite capabilities in maths and sciences has limited our ability to fill available training and employment opportunities in so-called high-tech areas, such as electronics technician and facility maintenance technician positions. This is a widespread problem encountered throughout the north and will take the education system some time to rectify.

In the meantime new initiatives, such as an electronics engineering technology program just announced by Aurora College, hold promise for producing some of the candidates needed for jobs with our joint venture and in similar industries in the north. Effective participation in long-range planning is also very important. Developing human capital and appropriate capabilities and capacities to participate in a variety of development activities takes considerable time.

It's crucial that Inuit organization and businesses be engaged in applicable long-range planning activities of the federal government and the private sector to properly position themselves for full and effective participation in future development opportunities.

Information on opportunities and associated business advisory services: In this area, the importance of timely and helpful information in assessing and pursuing business opportunities has already been stressed by my colleague and others. I can only add my endorsement to the importance of simplifying the existing complex and convoluted processes for accessing the wide variety of information and sources necessary to make effective business decisions.

Appropriate consultation on procurements: While the importance of meeting specific requirements associated with comprehensive land claim agreement commitments has been highlighted to operating departments, it's not clear that consultation is always done in a way that ensures Inuit economic development objectives are appropriately considered.

For example, the continued involvement in the North Warning System has been clearly supported by the four regional Inuit leaders on behalf of their respective Inuit groups, yet government officials had proposed to open dialogue for the next contract without consulting those same leaders and their respective development corporations on the consultation process, when the collective Inuit interests had been clearly indicated.

Transportation costs: The importance of cost-effective infrastructure and services to support economic development should be self-evident. The high cost of transportation in the north is a major disincentive to economic development. Air transportation is virtually the only option available for most of the year, and the low volumes of traffic, long distances and limited infrastructure all combine to drive up costs.

The act to commercialize operations of the air navigation system, which was formerly part of Transport Canada, included measures to recognize the special circumstances affecting air transportation in northern and remote locations. Assurances were given that potential cost impacts associated with the cost recovery for ANS services in the north would not be more onerous than elsewhere in Canada.

Notwithstanding those assurances, the initial implementation of user fees and anticipated phase two additions have had a much greater impact on transportation costs in the north, costs that will have to be passed on to all northern residents and businesses that are dependent on this essential service. Economic development will suffer unless measures to redress this inequity are taken soon.

[Translation]

A lot has been done over the last few years to promote Aboriginal participation in economic activities that directly affect the important participation of the Inuit in the economy of the North and of Canada in general. Thanks to ongoing cooperation, good will, improvements in current policies and procedures and innovative ways of increasing long-term Inuit participation in program delivery, the goals set out in the agreements on territorial claims seems attainable.

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PAIL's participation in the Northern Alert System is an excellent example that shows how enlightened policies on purchasing and the cooperation of the Inuit can contribute significantly to economic development for the greater good of the Inuit and Canada. We anticipate still greater participation in the Northern Alert System during the next century so that the Inuit of Canada can realize their full potential.

Thank you for giving us this opportunity to share the lessons we have learned with you.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Drolet.

[Translation]

Thank you, Mr. Drolet. I must congratulate you on your excellent French. We appreciate the fact that you used both languages.

I would like to tell you, Madam President and Gentlemen, that your statement will be on the Internet in a few days in both official languages. So, your statements today will go around the world. Thank you very much.

We're going to Question Period. Mr. McNally.

[English]

Mr. Grant McNally: Thank you for your presentations and for making the effort to come and give us your input at this committee. You're certainly presented with unique challenges in transportation and from the economic factors you mentioned in your reports.

You mentioned that your first priority was setting up an effective business advisory service. Our first witness mentioned some of the problems of having to talk over the phone with people who don't necessarily know the area and the unique challenges that are presented with the area.

I'm wondering if there are some people from your local community with the knowledge, experience, and creativity to be a part of that, maybe at a more higher input level, to help give direction to individuals from outside the area in terms of business and economic development activities.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: I'd like to politely point out to you that when you say “unique”, it is unique for you, but it's an everyday situation for us. The high cost of living—

Mr. Grant McNally: That's what I was trying to get at, but I didn't put it in the exact right words.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: We have been trying to work with DIAND in addressing some of our unique, specific concerns by suggesting, as pointed out in the proposed items for discussion in the action plan, that DIAND restructure itself by having an Inuit-specific division to address Inuit-specific issues and concerns. This is so that the people we deal with when we call DIAND will know our unique situation. It's unique to them. When we call them, we'll have the comfort of knowing who we will talk to specifically.

For the more localized addresses, our regional Inuit associations have taken on a delivery role to address some of the Inuit resource development programs and services, for instance. Our Inuit associations are ready, given the adequate resources, to be the delivery agents.

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Mr. Grant McNally: I guess I wasn't very clear on what I was trying to say. All regions of the country have concerns that aren't always directly articulated when dealing with Ottawa. I've heard the same kind of statement from other individuals dealing with other branches of the federal government. I just want to reassure you that's what I was trying to get at, the fact that so often we don't have individuals in the bureaucracy or in the area here dealing with decisions of other regions of the country who are specifically knowledgeable, as you say, about your everyday experience in that area. It looks like you've made some specific recommendations for that to improve. I hope that is followed up by the department as well.

Thanks.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: I would just add to some of your regional examples. When an individual calls from B.C., that individual knows how to speak English or French and the person at the other end does too, but some of our unilingual Inuktitut-speaking Inuit do not know how to speak English or French, and the person at the other end has no idea what that person is saying.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. McNally. Thank you, madam.

Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Claude Bachand: I would also like to thank Mr. Drolet for his presentation. Your few words in French were appreciated. Your French is excellent. We also appreciated that your document was translated and we thank you for that.

I would like to ask you a few questions, particularly about divisions. I know that the Inuit, like the Indians, consider that the Whites wrongly established borders on their territories. That was perhaps a necessary evil since, basically, we now know that there are provinces and territories.

Madam President, you mentioned a while ago that you represent six regions. I don't want to start a debate on regions, but I know that the Nunavut territories, that we talked about last week, include three of the regions you mentioned, namely Qiqiktani, Kivalliq et Kitikmeot.

Mr. Drolet talked about four regions. It seems that you don't agree on the number of regions and I have some difficulty in seeing how government policies can be applied if we can't agree on the regions. Note that you're not alone on that.

I can give you an example, If you want. In the Quebec government, The Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Culture and various other ministries don't cover the same regions and that makes it very difficult to apply government policies.

So, I would like to hear what you have to say about the division of Inuit territories. Myself, I know about three of them: Inuvialuit, Nunavut and Nunavik, plus the Labrador territories. I always thought there were those four regions.

At the same time, I would also like to ask you a question about NGOs. You are non-government organizations. With the new legislative assemblies starting up in the Far North—Inuvialuit and Nunavut, for example, will get legislative assemblies on April 1, 1999—, what will be the role the Inuit Tapirisat and what exactly will be your function, Mr. Drolet, at Pan Arctic Inuit Logistics? Will you still help coordinate all the work? Won't the regions be asked to take over, so that the new governments will look after all the needs of the Inuit communities?

[English]

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: You're right. ITC used to have on its board presidents representing the six regions, but since restructuring last year Nunavut counts as one region on our board. So really there are four regions on our ITC board, and in the past there were six regions.

With regard to your Nunavut question, I'd like to again politely remind people that Nunavut is not ITC. ITC is not representing just Nunavut. Nunavut government will be representing all the residents of Nunavut, not just Inuit. So Nunavut government will represent all the residents of Nunavut, and Nunavut-Tungavik Incorporated will represent the Inuit of Nunavut who sit on our board.

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Ken, do you want to add to that?

Mr. Ken Drolet: Certainly.

As to the question about the four regions, I believe Okalik has answered that one, but our focus has always been the four land claims settlement areas. It was really the association with the formal framework established by the land claims agreements that drove it to discussions on the basis of four regions or settlement areas.

As for the role of PAIL in the future, the power in PAIL is that it represents all Inuit. It really doesn't matter what the structure is within the Inuit communities. The business interests where the Inuit wish to operate collectively on something that transcends regional or settlement area boundaries can still be handled very effectively through a mechanism like PAIL.

I hope we are around for a long time to come and that we can build on what has been done by bringing this coordinated function of all of the Inuit development corporations together.

I would also like to emphasize that PAIL's activities are for profit. It is a business, and the profits generated hopefully go back into more economic development for the full benefit of all Inuit.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Keddy followed by Ms. Karetak-Lindell.

[English]

Mr. Gerald Keddy: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Your brief begs a few more questions, and I'm just wondering which direction I want to go in here. You don't really get into specifics on the taxation problem. The example you use is that a skidoo purchased in Ottawa at $ 5,000 could cost $9,000 in Iqaluit. We've had specific examples in Canadian history, the Crow rate being one, where we have allowed transportation rates to be addressed.

I'm just wondering, in a practical way, in a realistic way, how specifically we would address that. Do you think we would be looking at transport funding by the federal government, or would you be looking at forgiveness of tax? There are two issues there. Taxation is one issue and a transportation subsidy is a second issue. Do you have specifics on that?

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Mr. Allard can expand on the taxation issue.

Mr. Don Allard (Secretary-Treasurer, Pan-Arctic Inuit Logistics Corporation): I'll do so only very briefly. I think what you'll see as you visit the north—I believe you're going to Kuujjuaq on May 19 and 20, and to Iqaluit. I think each region will bring its own specific problems. For example, in the region of Nunavik, the people not only pay taxes but they also pay the GST and the PST on the provincial side.

In Mr. Bouchard's last budget statement, about a month ago, several important tax changes were put forward by Quebec, including exemptions for students, for example, who were being taxed on their travel; they were being taxed on all of the benefits they were receiving when they went to get an education in the south. A number of initiatives were also taken towards child credits and northern allowances to address certain of the main problems that the Inuit were having in Quebec.

Being in Quebec, of course, they also pay the 15%, the GST and the PST, which is more, for example, than in the territories, where people are only subjected to the GST. So there's an issue of tax fairness that will change from region to region. I don't think there's one plan for all.

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However, there was a group put together last year from Labrador, Quebec, and the territories to create a working group to try to get some discussions going with government on how to address the high levels of taxation in the north. I think what they're talking about here is not so much exemptions as tax fairness.

That will be addressed I think specifically by the regions concerned. I don't think there's going to be one plan for all, but there may be certain elements that will be the same for all. There may be some elements that will also take in not only Inuit but non-Inuit residents of the Territories, and perhaps even the Yukon.

So it is a large issue, but I think the point is that even in designing economic development programs, we have an example. For example, the Department of Indian Affairs has now come through with a program—they're finally delivering this—for marine infrastructure in Nunavut. This is a program for building wharves or piers in each of the Nunavut communities.

Normally, this would have been done by the Government of Canada. The Government of Canada would have done it either through Fisheries and Oceans or Transport Canada.

They are now saying they don't do that any more. They want Makivik to do it. So they're giving us initially $30 million to $40 million to begin the program. Right off the bat, because we are a proponent, 15% of all of those costs will be taxed back. So they're not really giving us $ 30 million, they're taking 15% of it in taxation, so it's no longer a program.

I think there's also this question of aboriginal tax fairness. Some groups pay exceedingly high taxes that are higher than that of other members of society, and some pay none at all. Where do you get a balance? It does affect economic development.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: I understand that, but when we get into taxation, we start to get into some very fuzzy areas. It's the wish of most parliamentarians—I think I can speak for everyone at the table—to try to make the tax system simpler and not more complicated. It's extremely complicated now for everyone.

So say you could take an average base price. We'll use the skidoo example of $ 5,000. Then you'd be looking for possibly forgiveness on HST and PST over the $5,000 because that will be the base price that it would cost anyone in Canada to buy that same thing. There has to be a channel or some type of an avenue and a process to implement it, but I'm not suggesting that it's an easy task. It's possible, but it's not an easy task at all.

The Chairman: Madam Karetak-Lindell, please.

Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell (Nunavut, Lib.): I have two questions. One is a broader question on some of the comments I heard in which you felt that there wasn't enough government consultation. Do you feel that the lack of consultation is in some way going against some of the land claim agreements?

To be more specific, when people signed those land claim agreements, we signed away certain rights in exchange for guarantees. Do you feel that some of those guarantees that were given to the land claim bodies are not being carried forward in good faith by the government not doing its share in full consultation with the people regarding issues that directly affect people's lives?

This is question number two. I feel that the government is trying to have each issue dealt with by the appropriate department. Right now, every issue we had with aboriginals has been dealt with by the Department of Indian Affairs.

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When you talk about “Inuit-specific”, are you talking about the Department of Indian Affairs dealing strictly with every issue that comes out of aboriginal concerns or do you see a better system where, say, an issue dealing with health would go right to the health department, a justice issue would go to the justice department—in other words, go a more direct route—and where we'd phase out the whole umbrella role of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development?

I'm trying to find out exactly how you feel the concerns would be more appropriately dealt with, and in a faster way.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Qujannamiik, Nancy.

If you look at the Inuit booklet, Mr. Bachand—I don't think your earlier question was adequately answered—the map on page 11 breaks the four settlement areas into six regions. The map is a bit clearer than perhaps our answers were.

To your first question, Nancy, the short answer is yes. Ken Drolet has some horror stories about how the department has, without consultation, interpreted sections of land claims agreements and used their interpretation without, again, consulting with PAIL or with the land claims organizations.

Regarding your second question, we have proposed using DIAND as a starting point to research how much access Inuit have to government programs and what programs are there that are geared toward aboriginal peoples but that only first nations access; the criteria and the program do not fit Inuit communities. We've proposed that in this paper.

Again, as I said earlier, we have proposed that DIAND, as a starting department, as the lead organization we have to deal with, restructure itself to have an Inuit-specific division to address our concerns. We are hoping that the government and the departments will be open to having Inuit-specific divisions in every department.

Mrs. Nancy Karetak-Lindell: Thank you.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Alan would like to expand on the answer.

Mr. Alan Braidek (Executive Director, Inuit Tapirisat of Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As an indication of why we see Inuit-specific programs and policies needed, I'll indicate to you where Inuit have to go to get access to, as an example, the Aboriginal Business Canada. For those in Quebec and the Arctic, they have to go to the Montreal office. For those in Labrador, they have to go to the Halifax office. For those in the western Arctic, the Inuvialuit and I believe Kitikmeot regions, they have to go to Edmonton. So to access one program of the government, Inuit have to go to three different locations.

Similarly for the regional offices of Indian and Northern Affairs—they have a Yellowknife office, so those in Inuvialuit and Kitikmeot have to go there. For those in northern Quebec, they have to go through the Quebec City office. For those in Labrador, they go through Amherst.

You can see that without having Inuit-specific programs and policies, without an Inuit-specific approach, Inuit are being forced to go through various different locations and various different offices, and each time we have to educate them about the specific economic conditions in the communities, about the structure of Inuit businesses and Inuit organizations.

So it's this fragmentation that needs to be addressed, and we see Inuit-specific programs as being the way to address that.

Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you.

[Translation]

Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Claude Bachand: In your text, you gave the example of the Skidoo. I've been in the Far North several times, I might say the "frozen North" because it's extremely cold there, and what struck me particularly was the cost of food.

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I found that people earned two times less in the Far North than in the South and that food costs twice as much there. I made that my personal campaign and I denounced the situation to the media. I would really like to go back up there to see the prices, but I have the impression things haven't changed much.

Mr. Braidek, you just mentioned that people should check in various places. You mentioned Edmonton. You mentioned Quebec City. I think there is also the question of cost, in particular, the cost of transportation. If you bring a Skidoo up to Nunavik, it certainly makes more sense to get it in Quebec City than in Edmonton.

That brings me to the question, not of taxation as my colleague was discussing, but of subsidies. I believe that Canada Post subsidises food shipments to the Far North a lot, but I always had doubts about the way food is sent. There can be as many as 21 middlemen before food gets to the consumer. That seems like a major problem to me.

I also wonder a lot about costs. What can a company like First Air, for example, charge for transportation? The company is, I believe, owned by Inuits. You're caught up in a situation where you need subsidies. Is there a possibility of increasing subsidies to bring down the price of food and other goods in the Far North?

Secondly, on your side, do you keep track of First Air's profits? First Air makes profits because it charges quite high rates for food sent to the Far North. How do you control the price of services and particularly of goods? As I see it, that's where the shoe pinches.

When I take a First Air or Canadian plane, I notice that half the airplane is reserved for transporting food to the Far North. Can you control First Air profits to ensure that food costs in the Far North are as low as possible?

[English]

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Can you add to that, Don?

[Translation]

Mr. Don Allard:: Yes, certainly, transportation costs are extremely high. As far as food goes, rates are set in the contract with Canada Post. Nothing can be done about those prices. Everybody pays the price set out in the contract with Canada Post. In any case, profit margins are not high when everything is taken into consideration. I don't know anything about the 21 middlemen you say handle food.

Most of the people I know say it's handled two or three times. Food is very expensive mostly because of transportation costs. In fact, the prices of goods shipped from Montreal or Val-d'Or to Kuujjuaq would be even higher if the same goods were sent up as far as Kangirsuk, for example. Every time, there's an additional cost. Once the goods get to their destination, the Bay or the co-ops make more profit selling it. That's why goods cost so much in the Far North. But, I suppose everybody makes normal profit margins.

As far as First Air profits are concerned, I would like to point out that few airline companies make huge profits. If some companies make profits one year, they might lose money the next. With the cost of fuel and especially the cost of planes, I can assure you that there are no big profits in aviation, contrary to what you might imagine. I don't think there are any airline companies in Canada that make much money, and if they make some this year, it's just because they lost a lot two or three years before.

First Air, which was thinking about being here today, decided to sit at Kuujjuaq. First Air belongs to Inuit from Nunavik, who will be seeing you and who will answer any questions you might have. Moreover, you're going to talk with people from the Kativik Regional Administration that looks after the region for the whole population, for the people of Nunavik, and the Makivik Corporation, which represents the interests of the Inuit. That's pretty much the answer Okalik gave a few minutes ago.

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The Inuit have chosen to be governed by public institutions that are open to everybody, but they still have organizations that represent their interests as native people, through corporations such as Makivik, NTI and the Inuvialuits. There's a big difference. They don't have reserves and their municipal and government institutions are public in nature.

That's another reason why several Indian Affairs programs should look at the Inuit differently. We have been asking for years for programs geared especially to the Inuit since they are not Indians. They are not First Nations. They don't live on reserves, they pay taxes, their needs are different and, most of all, they live in the Far North.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Bachand.

I would like to break in here for a moment. You talk about postal subsidies for the omnibus air service. It's a subsidy of more than 14 million Canadian dollars. The air service operates in two ways: perishable food is shipped North by air from Val-d'Or to Kuujjuaraapik, Kuujjuak and Iqaluit by First Air, and non- perishable food is shipped by sea.

On the air service side, I would like to know if NAV CANADA is currently increasing landing fees. Is that a problem?

Mr. Don Allard: It is in fact a big problem, not only for the Inuit but for everybody in the Far North. Prices keep going up, whether because of insurance, fuel or the cost of airplanes. These are more costs imposed on us. Since there is not a large market and not many airports, costs are much higher in the North than in the South.

When there are only 50,000 people to absorb costs, it's not like when there are 15 or 20 million. Mr. Drolet knows much more about the NAV CANADA issue than I do.

The Chairman: Mr. Drolet, followed by Mr. Keddy and Mr. Bryden.

Mr. Drolet.

[English]

Mr. Ken Drolet: Certainly there are a number of factors associated with the NAV CANADA recovery of fees that are very pertinent. Whereas the costs for the average northerner and Inuit will go up on a per capita basis, some estimate, around $ 150 to $ 200 per person per year as a result of the fees, that same fee structure applied in southern Canada will equate to a few dollars per head. So there's a dramatic difference in the way it hits the north, because of the distances and all the rest.

I'd also like to point out that most of the air freight, the heavy cargo that you see in the front of the aircraft, goes one way. The aircraft comes back generally empty. So in fact you have to amortize those costs in one direction, but in fact the costs hit in both directions.

On the food mail program, the funding is primarily channelled through the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, and Canada Post delivers the service. It acts as the intermediary. But that is part of much of the general funding. DIAND officials are, of course, also worried about the additional costs that would be added on to the program as a result of these new user fees.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Madame Eegeesiak.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: I'd like to add to Mr. Bachand's comments about how northern residents, not just Inuit, may make $50,000 and in the same job down here would make $30,000. But we pay taxes, high taxes, for this $50,000, as well as very high prices for our goods and services. So that same $ 50,000 does not go as far as the $50,000 down here, Mr. Bachand.

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[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Chairman, I would like to clear up a point.

[English]

What I just said is this. What I saw was that you're earning two times less than in the south. That's what I said.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Okay.

Mr. Claude Bachand: I don't think you were earning twice as much as in the south. It's two times less than in the south.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Okay, sorry, I misunderstood.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Keddy.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to go back to a comment you made a bit earlier about the supply of services in Inuktitut. I would think—and you can correct me if I'm wrong here; I'm just trying to see how this will all apply—when Nunavut comes into being on April 1, 1999, obviously there will be a supply of goods and services there that will cover three of the original Inuit regions. Has there been a long-term plan for non-government-owned service to look after the ongoing service for the Inuvialuit, for the—is it Nunavik?—Nunavik, and the Inuit of Labrador? For instance, the Inuit Tapirisat of Canada could be a service supplier there. I'm sure in your government officials' office in Ottawa, your MP's office, there's obviously someone there besides the MP who can speak Inuktitut, so people can get service in their own language.

I'm trying to address that. There should be a positive way that the service can be supplied without creating a bureaucratic nightmare here. Governments tend to do that, and they could tend to do that in Nunavut as well as in Ottawa. Or they could tend to do that in Nova Scotia as well as in the Yukon. It's just a fact of life.

What we're looking at, at the end of the day, is making it a more effective service, more efficient and less expensive, because in the long run, if you cannot correspond with someone or cannot communicate with them, it's going to become more expensive and frustrating.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: I'll try to respond to that, Mr. Keddy.

Right now it's a bureaucratic nightmare, and I hope you are volunteering Nancy's office to be a department of Inuit issues.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: I expect that Nancy's office would handle a lot of problems that would come out of there, because every MP's office does the same thing.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Yes. Nancy could do this as well as I can, but she represents Nunavut.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: I understand that.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: There is another MP for Inuvialuit, another MP for Nunavik, and another MP for Labrador.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: I would expect that they would all have someone in their office who can speak Inuktitut.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: That is, if we are successful in attracting them.

Mr. Gerald Keddy: All right, but that would obviously be a criterion. If you're representing the French shore of Nova Scotia, then you would be bilingual. If you were representing an area in the Yukon, you would expect to represent the indigenous people there.

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Did I answer your question?

Mr. Gerald Keddy: I think so, yes.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Keddy. In closing, I would like to make a comment on what Mr. Keddy said.

We are talking about Nunavik. You know that I represent Nunavik as its member of Parliament. You know that the Abitibi riding covers 802,000 square kilometres and has a population of 93,000 inhabitants. I'm trying to have it called Abitibi—James Bay—Nunavik. In my heart and in the hearts of the Inuit of Nunavik, we think it's time for government and the two Parliaments, that is the National Assembly in Quebec City and Parliament in Ottawa, to recognize that Nunavik must have an Inuit representative.

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I love you very much, but it would be still better if there was one of your people to represent you at the federal level, wouldn't it?

A voice: With an in to the Senators.

The Chairman: I would like to have your comments on that.

[English]

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: I think I'll just go back to my opening comments and again congratulate you for representing a very proud people.

[Translation]

The Chairman: I really think it's time you had an Inuit member to help you with your work.

Mr. Bryden.

[English]

Mr. John Bryden: I would like, if I may, to bring the discussion back to what this is all about, which is economic development in the north in remote communities. Somehow we got lost there.

I take it the high cost of transportation—forget about goods and services in the north—is the major disincentive for developing business opportunities in the remote communities. Am I correct in that?

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: There are a number of different factors, I think. It's access too.

Mr. Ken Drolet: It's not only transportation. It's because the infrastructure is relatively primitive in many cases. It's because we're talking about generally smaller communities, remote from many of the places where it is easy to interact and understand how businesses can collectively pursue business opportunities. When you're dealing with business opportunities at a local level—and we're talking about many communities with much less than 1,000 people—it is difficult to be all things for all people. The costs of providing services there, simply because of the lack of economies of scale, go up.

Mr. John Bryden: I recognize that, but surely the whole business of business is producing a product or service that is marketable. I would have thought the major obstacle to doing that, regardless of whether you have an infrastructure or not, is the high cost of transportation. Is that not so?

Mr. Ken Drolet: It has a very major impact. Certainly the cost of going between even quite adjacent communities is extremely high. The cost of bringing goods and services from the south so value can be added to those services for northerners is very high.

Mr. John Bryden: Then let me put a question to you, because I'm wondering more and more whether government hasn't been off-base for a long time in trying to help the north. What if the government put its principal subsidies, its principal funding, into lowering the costs of transportation?

My feeling about the north is that it's very important for us to maintain healthy remote communities because it's a matter of sovereignty, if nothing else. The Government of Canada has a huge interest in this, but people need to have a purpose and they need to be happy. They can only have that purpose if they're doing constructive things.

As long as the transportation costs are so high, organizations like yours working to develop business in the north are at a great disadvantage. So let me put the question again. Should government not consider focusing its support for the north on reducing the costs of transportation, at least for business enterprises in the various communities?

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Lowering transportation costs would help, but the main message we're trying to get across is that Inuit-specific policy and Inuit-specific programming from government would also help address a lot of our issues, as well as knowledge and sensitivity of the bureaucracy of Inuit communities.

Mr. John Bryden: If you don't mind my saying so, you're changing the answer from the question. I heard that presentation, but let me repeat my question.

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Certainly there can be programs helping the various communities, not just your communities but all the various remote communities and the aboriginal communities. What I want to know is, is it not true—it seems to me so evident—that the reason the communities are having difficulty developing is because of the high cost of transportation? If an aboriginal business, an Inuit business, didn't have to factor in the cost of transporting a raw material from the south and then sending out the finished product, or moving from one community to another developing services, if that cost wasn't there, would you not be able to more effectively develop the very type of businesses that you're trying to develop? Isn't that the very key?

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Yes, but that's not the only issue.

Mr. John Bryden: I didn't say that was the only issue, but government must make choices and priorities. I'd like to spend $ 100 million in reducing your transportation costs if that would give all the remote communities, regardless of who they are, a better opportunity to develop businesses.

People come before this committee and they say “We want to develop businesses”, but they never say what product they're going to bring to market. They have so few products they can bring to market, because they are in remote communities and they can't compete because of the high cost of transportation.

Anyway, thank you. I didn't mean to do a soliloquy here, but nevertheless.... If you have something to add to that, please do.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you. Speaking about transportation costs, same-day return by plane between Ottawa and Kuujjuaq costs $ 1,600. That's a frightful rate. It's $ 1,600 just for a same-day return. Is that right?

Mr. Braidek or Mr. Drolet, you wanted to answer that question?

[English]

Mr. Alan Braidek: If I may, Mr. Chairman, I think that transportation is, as Okalik has said, of prime importance, but in the presentation we also talked about access to capital and access to markets. As you've indicated, people say we need to develop our communities, and then we don't have a market and we don't have a product to sell. Part of our proposal is making a priority access to markets, identifying markets, identifying what goods we have that we can sell, add value to, and build an economy around. I think that is critical.

Access to capital is also critical at every level, not only from enabling someone to start a business that's going to employ 45 people, if that's what he wants to do.... Our president was recently in Makkovik last week and she couldn't get cash because there was no access to a money machine or any services like that. Every level of access to capital, from being able to do your daily exchange to being able to fund a business to get it going, is critical. Simply dealing with transportation I don't think is going to be enough. It's critical and it's probably of prime importance, but all these other issues are also critical.

Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: One last question, Mr. Bryden.

[English]

Mr. John Bryden: I'd like to follow up on that. Thank you for your intervention.

Again, if businesses in these communities, when they're drafting a business plan and looking for lenders, could be guaranteed that their transportation costs would be subsidized by government, would that not make it much easier for them to obtain capital? Would that not help them in getting lending from the banks?

Mr. Alan Braidek: Yes, because it would enable the banks then to provide the services in the location where the people are and they could access the services.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you very much. I would like to thank the witnesses. We are very happy to have you here, in Ottawa. We'll be seeing you again in Nunavik, on your land. I would like to thank the President, Ms. Eegeesiak, as well as Mr. Braidek, Mr. Drolet and Mr. Allard. Goodbye for now.

Do you have something to add?

[English]

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Mr. Bouchard, I think, is aware of the high costs, as you are, of some of our communities. I would like to suggest that you go through a little exercise of saving your grocery stubs and then comparing the prices up north, just to get a feel for it.

Mr. St-Julien, your Inuktitut is pretty good as well.

• 1245

[Translation]

The Chairman: Madam President, at the moment, bread costs about $ 1.10 a loaf here in Ottawa. If I remember correctly, it costs more than $ 3.00 in the North now.

[English]

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: Where I'm from in Iqaluit, it's about $ 3.29, $ 3.49.

[Translation]

The Chairman: To get bread in the North, you have to pay $ 3.20. That's terrible. Thank you very much.

[English]

Ms. Okalik Eegeesiak: That's what we pay locally.

[Translation]

The Chairman: The next meeting is scheduled for tomorrow afternoon. Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.