AAND Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS AND NORTHERN DEVELOPMENT

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES AUTOCHTONES ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT DU GRAND NORD

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, April 30, 1998

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[Translation]

The Chairman (Mr. Guy Saint-Julien (Abitibi, Lib.)): I will now call the meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are continuing our study of aboriginal economic development.

Our witnesses today are from the Grand Council of the Crees of Quebec (Eeyou Istchee). They are Mr. Brian Craik, Director of Federal Relations; Mr. Norman Gull, Director of Community Services; Mr. Bill Namagoose, Executive Director; and Mr. Paul Wertman, Advisor to the Oujé-Boagoumou Cree Nation. Mr. Stephen Bearskin, President of Cree Construction Co., was unable to come because of meetings taking place in his village. Thank you all very much.

Do you have an opening statement, Mr. Namagoose?

[English]

Mr. Bill Namagoose (Executive Director, Grand Council of the Crees of Quebec (Eeyou Istchee)): Yes, we have a prepared statement we'd like to present to the standing committee.

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[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in his native language]

Thank you for your invitation to the committee. We are very pleased to be here.

The Grand Council of the Crees, Eeyou Istchee, represents the nine Cree communities and the Cree families occupying the 372 family hunting territories in sub-Arctic Quebec. We occupy the land drained by the rivers flowing from the south and east towards James Bay and Hudson Bay. We call this land Eeyou Istchee. We have occupied this land from time immemorial and have managed the resources so as to allow the continuation of Cree society for many, many generations.

When the European contacted our society, it was primarily for the purposes of trade. For the first 300 years of our relationship, the Crees continued to occupy the land as we had always done. We developed with the Europeans a symbiotic if not always mutually beneficial relationship, which continued until the middle part of this century.

At that time a Cree hunter could make today's equivalent of upwards of $30,000 from selling the furs he harvested from his hunting territory. Also, in the 1950s, certain government services began to be available to the Crees, including limited health services, some educational opportunities, and the old age pension, which led to increasing settlement of the Crees around the former trading posts.

Until that time our society had been organized around the extended family unit and the ochimaw, or family head. This also in the 1950s was supplemented and to some degree supplanted by a system of government based upon the chief and band council.

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, Eeyou Istchee became increasingly targeted by forestry companies, mining companies, and Hydro-Québec. At first, the forestry and mining activities provided some supplementary income to some Crees who combined subsistence hunting with part-time employment in logging activities and sometimes in activities related to mining and mining exploration. These activities also led to increased social tensions in the territory as the people who were the original inhabitants were increasingly treated as squatters in their own land.

The communities of Nemaska, Waswanipi, and Oujé-Boagoumou are prime examples of this. All of these communities were closed as a result of mining or development activities. Those Crees seeking to participate in the wage economy built shack towns on the outskirts of the company communities that grew up around these so-called development activities. The community of Oujé-Boagoumou, for example, while it tried to stay together, was forcibly moved many times to accommodate the wishes of mining developers and was gradually broken up into five satellite communities.

In 1972 the Crees realized that the plans of Hydro-Québec to dam more than a dozen rivers in our territory would spell an end to our way of life. The leaders at the time organized to form the Grand Council of the Crees as a means to fight and protect the Cree rights to the territory. Collectively we filed a court injunction to stop the La Grande project then under construction. After six months of testimony, the Quebec Superior Court ordered the project stopped, as it would damage Cree rights to the territory. Only one week later, the Quebec Court of Appeal overturned this decision, deciding that the continued construction of this project was in the best interest of all Quebeckers and that the interests of the majority were more important than the interests of Cree society.

We appealed to the Supreme Court, but it refused to hear our application, saying we could begin the process of pleading the case on the basis of our rights only in the lower courts. We saw that this would allow the La Grande complex project to be completed. Rather than subject our people to the continued social impacts of unchecked development, we decided to file both our court case and entertain talks with Canada, Quebec, and Hydro-Québec to determine whether any accommodation was possible.

It should be understood that at that time aboriginal rights were not recognized in Canada and that the Canadian custom was to bulldoze the aboriginals out of the way to allow the developers to do what they wanted with the territory. Look at the north shore in Quebec, or Manitoba or British Columbia in the 1960s and the 1970s, for the usual program.

After one year of discussions, in 1974, we believed we had sufficient cause to continue the negotiations and so we signed an agreement in principle. At the end of the second year, on November 11, 1975, the parties signed the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. This agreement was the first and perhaps the only, aside from the Northern Flood Agreement, comprehensive land claim agreement signed in Canada. It includes chapters on land, membership, local government, regional government, compensation, education, health, police and justice, environmental protection, hunting, fishing and trapping, income security for hunters, and community and economic development. The Inuit of northern Quebec signed the same agreement, and in 1978 the Naskapi of Quebec signed a modified version of the agreement. This later agreement is known as the Northeastern Quebec Agreement.

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The James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement was intended to provide the Crees the means to develop their communities and also to become implicated in the economic development of the territory as a whole. At the same time it was intended to protect and provide the option to the Cree people to continue to pursue the traditional way of life, as they always had. At that time, in 1975, hunting, fishing, and trapping was the primary activity of the majority of our people. It was estimated that approximately 1.5 million pounds of fresh meat was annually brought into Cree society through this activity, in addition to approximately $2 million of annual fur revenues.

The hunting, fishing, and trapping regime in section 24 of the agreement spells out the manner in which this activity would be protected in the context of growing sport hunting and tourism activities in Cree territory. There is ongoing involvement of the Inuit, Naskapi, Crees, Canada, and Quebec in this regime.

Section 22 of the agreement guarantees that Cree communities and their economies, as well as the rights under the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, would be protected in possible future development. This chapter gave the Crees the possibility of opposing types of development that they saw as detrimental to either their traditional occupations or their increased involvement in present-day territorial development. This section of the agreement puts a great emphasis on the social and economic impacts, but also emphasizes the environmental impacts of development.

Section 28 of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement provides for the development of the infrastructure of the Cree communities, including sanitary and community infrastructures and dwellings of various types. This chapter also provides for a regime that would open the door to increased Cree involvement in development activities in the territory. Priority was to be given to awarding contracts to the Crees and to Cree employment and development. A special regime for training and for measures to help Cree entrepreneurs was set out in this section.

Since the signing of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement in 1975, we have built up our communities. The special measures under the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement have not, however, been implemented in any manner that represents the commitments of Canada and Quebec set out in the agreement.

In 1982 a special report of the federal government clearly stated it had failed to set up the implementation mechanisms and to provide the budgets necessary for implementing the agreement. Curiously, this review failed to deal with the question of Cree economic development in section 28. Since the publication of the review, the federal government has once again failed to come to terms with the implementation of the agreement. Let me give you an overview of this matter.

Section 22 of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, relating to the social and environmental impact of development, called for special measures to bring Crees into this activity. Neither Canada nor Quebec has passed the regulations, policies, and laws or has set aside the funding required to implement this section. As a result, development on this territory goes ahead without any measures, such as those required by the Nunavut Inuit Impact and Benefit Agreements. There is room in the agreement for such agreements, which would have resulted in increased Cree involvement in development.

Something under 100 Crees are presently involved in the forestry sector on the territory. The land use plans, which were to have taken into account the Cree presence on the territory, and the forest management plans, which were to have been elaborated on the basis of Cree input, have never been developed. As a result, forestry development continues on the territory in a manner that destroys the Crees' ability to practise their traditional activities.

Forestry activity presently produces $1.2 billion in revenues annually for Quebec and supports the employment of over 15,000 people, but few Crees benefit from this activity.

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Hydro development has not turned out as we had thought it would. In 1975 we thought the reservoirs of Hydro-Québec could be used for traditional Cree activity. In fact, the fish in the reservoirs are contaminated with mercury. The shorelines of the reservoirs are not suitable habitat for wildlife. We had been originally led to believe we could establish camps on the reservoirs for winter hunting.

Moreover, hydro development has not provided long-term opportunity for Cree employment. The La Grande project currently employs approximately 750 permanent employees. For the most part, these employees are flown in from southern Quebec and work on the operation and maintenance of the project on a shift that lasts usually a couple of weeks at a time. The number of Cree employees hired by Hydro-Québec has never been more than five people or .007% of those employed at any one time. While the Crees managed to get some employment during the construction phase of these projects, during the operations phase there has been very little access to employment. The primary barriers to this employment are access to union-accredited employment qualification cards, language restrictions that limit bilingual Cree-English speaking employees from working on a project, and educational and training barriers.

Can you imagine a company from Ontario building a large hydro project in front of Quebec City and not hiring any of the local people? Can you imagine such an employer not even putting in place programs to bring locals into full-time employment? This is our situation.

In the mining industry, the Crees up until recently gained some employment through contracts to cut survey lines through the bush for the purposes of staking claims. Such employment has recently diminished as a result of a new computer system for registering claims that has been instituted in Quebec.

Since 1996, Cree employees have gained employment on the Troilus Mine project to the west of the community of Mistissini. In spite of opposition from the Quebec government and the Quebec Mining Association to the agreement that was being negotiated between the proponent Metale Corporation and the Crees, there was a reduced version of the agreement signed. This agreement contained an employment target of 25% Cree employees. The company and Mistissini Band put in place special training programs and employment recruitment programs, as well as special measures to allow Crees to negotiate contracts for the provision of certain services. The results have been remarkable.

Not only does a Cree company provide restaurant services for all of the company employees, but also Cree employees are now working in all sectors of the mining activity. Of the company's salaried employees, 6% are Cree. They are in the human resources and accounting department. Of the employees paid on an hourly basis, 34% are Crees, and 33% of those who are employed on a temporary basis are Crees. The result is that out of 289 employees, 74—or 26%—are Crees.

The Crees continue to make efforts to increase their number employed on a salary basis in the company. The Troilus experience has been satisfactory to both the promoter of the project and the local Cree community. It is an example of demonstrated willingness of aboriginal people to become involved in development activities when the barriers to such involvement are dealt with through special measures.

For the rest of the mining industry in northern Quebec, the regional development agency, the James Bay Development Corporation, which is a non-native entity operated out of Mattagami and Chibougamau, has over the past years been actively discouraged and worked against Cree involvement in the industry. Measures that are considered elsewhere in the world as positive measures to bring underrepresented populations into employment opportunities are seen by the James Bay Development Corporation to be discriminatory and unfairly favouring the Crees.

Now I would like to ask Norman Gull, the director of community services, to continue with the presentation.

Mr. Norman Gull (Director of Community Services, Grand Council of the Crees of Quebec (Eeyou Istchee)): In the area of tourism, the Crees have launched a number of ventures, including fishing camps at Mistissini and Chisasibi; caribou hunting and outfitting camps at Chisasibi; and eco-tourism ventures at Whapmagoostui, Oujé-Boagoumou, and at Waskaganish.

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Such ventures are just beginning. However, in setting up, not only do these companies have the normal problems of setting up operations and establishing markets, but they also operate in the environment of the Radissonie Regional Development Council, which has been hostile to the setting up of the Cree outfitting and tourism association. This association was a promise made by Quebec and Canada in section 28 of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement in 1975, and it was not set up until last year—I should add that it hasn't been fully set up yet.

Both the Government of Canada, under the Federal Office of Regional Development-Québec, and the Quebec government have undertaken efforts to thwart the Cree organization of their involvement in the tourism industry on the territory. Quebec has attempted to control the operations of the Cree Tourism Association by insisting that it be under the non-native Radissonie Tourism Association. The very existence of the Radissonie Regional Development Council is contrary to the spirit and intent of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement.

In the years since the signature of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement in 1975, the Crees have made important advances in setting up local and regional government and in setting up the institutions that go along with this. The Cree Health Board and the Cree School Board are examples of relatively successful efforts to implement chapters of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement.

The result has been that approximately 30% of the Cree workforce are presently employed in some aspect of public government and the delivery of social services. The Cree School Board employs over 300 Cree teachers and support staff. This is a vast improvement from the days when the federal government operated the system and almost nobody, outside of the janitors in the schools, was of Cree ancestry. The Cree Health Board has a similar history. Increasingly, Crees are being attracted into professions that in the past were the realm of non-native employees.

The income security program, which provides an income supplement to those Cree people who pursue traditional activities as their main occupation, had in 1996-97, 1,742 adults enrolled as beneficiaries. This is approximately 38% of the Cree working population. Another approximately 1,500 Crees are employed in full-time jobs, which leaves approximately 30% or 1,300 to 1,400 Crees who do not have employment. Such figures do not take into account a number of people who are currently enrolled in the income security program for hunters who are actively looking for full-time salaried or wage employment.

Moreover, it is estimated that as of 1999, in order to have full employment in the Cree communities, approximately 2,000 new jobs need to be created. The requirement for new jobs is increasing annually by approximately 400 as a result of new entrants into the labour force.

In contrast to the population of Canada, the Cree population is relatively young. With a birth rate of almost 3%, a rate that has remained unchanged since 1975 when the figures began to be collected, today approximately 35% of the population in the Cree communities is under the age of 15. In Canada, approximately 21% are under the age of 15 years. There is therefore a need for the creation of employment opportunities in the Cree communities in Eeyou Istchee and for Crees in the territory covered by the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, Eeyou Istchee, the traditional Cree hunting lands.

One of the lessons to date in the Cree development is that the improvement of social services and the increased employment of Crees in the public sector in general cannot meet the requirement for employment opportunities in the communities. While there is still need for growth in the public sector, particularly in the area of health-related social services—social and psychological counselling and healing circles—and in some areas of regional government, the fact remains that the increase in Crees requiring employment on an annual basis is creating an employment deficit in the communities of crisis proportions.

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One interesting initiative by the Crees has been the efforts of the Oujé-Boagoumou community to address their problems of community development.

[Editor's Note: Witness speaks in his native language]

Mr. Paul Wertman (Adviser, Oujé-Boagoumou Cree Nation, Grand Council of the Crees of Quebec (Eeyou Istchee)): The community of Oujé-Boagoumou, which in the 1950s and 1960s was forcibly relocated on numerous occasions from its village by mining development, eventually managed, working together with the Grand Council of the Crees, to press the Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec for negotiations with respect to the creation of a new village. As a result, in 1991 construction of the village began.

The community obtained funding from the federal and provincial governments for the construction of the village, for the setting up of a special housing fund, and for the creation of a special economic development fund.

The community began by installing a district heating system that would reduce the total energy costs to the community residents. All houses and public buildings are heated by a system of in-ground hot water pipes. This system is supplied with energy by burning waste sawdust from a nearby sawmill near the community of Chapais.

Energy costs in the Cree communities are very high because of their remote locations. The costs of transporting oil to the Cree communities and the costs of heating the houses and public buildings by electricity are also very high. Knowing this, the leaders of Oujé-Boagoumou undertook this special project to limit these costs. Not only has the district heating system reduced the cost to institutions and householders for heat; it has also created some local employment.

In addition to this, the community has also developed a cultural tourism project as well as other local economic development initiatives.

While Oujé-Boagoumou has not yet resolved all of its employment requirements, it has set a good example in defining certain directions for future development.

The community of Oujé-Boagoumou was fortunate in that it was able to develop its district heating plans from the beginning of the village construction. The rest of the communities have not been so fortunate. The communities have grown up through a mix of investments and through housing and infrastructure subsidies, which are only predictable on a year-to-year basis.

As a result of the manner in which the federal government plans for the development of the Cree communities, long-term funding requirements have not been to date factored into the long-term planning of the federal government and its programs. Initiatives, such as efforts to minimize energy costs, that have a 10- and 20-year payback period are difficult to fit into federal and provincial financial planning cycles, which have three-year horizons. The problem is that the long-term financial implications of such short-sighted planning are enormous.

The Crees are presently involved in discussions with the federal government and hope to find a more sustainable basis on which to develop the Cree communities. Long-term financial planning and consideration of community needs are essential to this initiative.

Efforts to take advantage of local situations, such as that presented to the people of Oujé-Boagoumou with the location of a nearby sawmill, provide some opportunity for improving the efficiency of the operation of Cree communities. These are matters that must be considered, on a case-by-case basis, as essential to proper planning.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Mr. Chairman, I will continue.

In addition to the development of communities and community infrastructure, the Crees have undertaken development of a commercial nature. Collectively the Crees own a company called the Cree Regional Economic Enterprises Corporation, or Creeco, which is a holding company for a number of Cree ventures. These include Air Creebec; the Cree Construction and Development Company; Servinor, which is a food wholesaler; and Valpiro, a company that provides services at the airport in Val d'Or.

In 1997 total revenues of these companies was approximately $87 million. Profit margins in that year were relatively limited as a result of losses suffered through Servinor, which is a new company.

The Crees have started to distribute food on a wholesale basis to companies in the Val d'Or area, to Cree communities, and in the eastern high Arctic. These companies employ approximately 25% Crees in their normal operations. During a period of intensified construction activities, the percentage increases because of the number of Crees who are hired on a seasonal basis to work for Cree Construction.

All of these companies presently have their basis of operation in the community of Val d'Or. The Crees make an important economic contribution to this non-native community through their activities in these companies. The Crees also operate Cree Energy, which provides wholesale fuels to some of the Cree communities and to some retailers in the Val-d'Or and Amos areas.

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When looked at in a broad perspective, the Crees must seek sources of revenue that will allow them to support the development of a private sector in the Cree communities and a Cree private sector outside of the Cree communities on the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement territory.

The sharing of the revenues generated by resource development in the agreement territory is an obvious source for such funding. At the present time, resource development in the Cree territory is basically resource development in the north for the south.

Benefits for the Crees tend to be in the form of compensation payments, which are in effect payment for damages, and serve to remove the Crees from development activity rather than to implicate them more within development. Revenue sharing, if instituted, must provide for a long-term funding base as a backbone for development of both Cree communities and economic development in the territory.

In addition to this, the employment of Crees in development activity and the administration of the territory is essential. The communities themselves cannot create employment opportunities at the level of 400 new jobs per year. The thousands of jobs in present development activities in the Cree territory, 99% of which currently go to non-natives, must be more accessible to Crees. It is discriminatory for a population, which over a large part of the territory is in fact the majority, not to be represented in the workforce in the region that in percentage at least reflects the population make-up.

This is particularly of concern when one looks at the fact that the Crees have a constitutionally protected agreement that is specially designed to bring about Cree involvement in employment in the territory. Frankly, the governments of Canada and Quebec have not fulfilled their obligations and commitments to the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement with the seriousness in which they deserve to be undertaken.

Key to this is the impact and assessment process set up in section 22 of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. While the James Bay agreement says that Canada will legislate section 22 if it has problems implementing it, today the Cree review procedure is defunct and not used at all, and Canada uses thin and wrongly construed legal arguments not to implement it. Canada is clearly in violation of its constitutional obligations in this section.

Moreover, if you look at section 28.10.4 of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement, again there are no regulations to set out the Cree employment and contract priorities for development on the territory. These should be set out and they should apply to third parties. This is not done. Once again, Canada is in violation of its legislative responsibilities.

We therefore ask the committee to continue to monitor the implementation by Canada of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement with a view to facilitating the special measures to be undertaken by Canada for the implementation of the agreement in the long term.

We expect that such measures will be developed through the negotiation process currently entered into by the Crees and Canada and headed by Monsieur Vennat and Dr. Ted Moses. We expect that this process could lead to results that would put the Crees and Canada on the track of correcting the situation.

We have a chance to go a long way to make changes called for by the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples. We could also fall into the historical trap of continued marginalization of the Crees and the social and cultural damages caused by this. The future is in our hands. Let's change where it is going.

Thank you very much. Merci bien. Meegwetch.

That ends our presentation, Mr. Chairman.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Meegwetch. Thank you very much. Your statement was very good. We all know that the Crees of James Bay are an example of leadership and a model for all Canadians.

We will now move to the question period. Mr. Konrad.

[English]

Mr. Derrek Konrad (Prince Albert, Ref.): Thank you very much.

Good to see you again today.

I want to clarify a couple of things here. On page 8 of your report you talk about the number of Cree employees hired by Hydro-Québec, that it “has never been more than five people, or .007% of those employed at any one time”. You also talk about “language restrictions that limit bilingual Cree-English speaking employees from working on the project”.

Do you mean to tell me that in Quebec there are Cree who don't speak French?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Yes.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Why would that be?

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Mr. Bill Namagoose: It is because of our history with the federal government. It was the federal government that was in charge of education in the 1940s and 1950s. They made sure that the Crees learned English before French, even though we were living in Quebec.

The Cree school board was created in 1975 by the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement and the Crees are in charge of education. Now, in my community, we enrol over 60% of the students in the French language, which is a very rapid transition from what we were used to. The Crees are in charge of education and now we teach our children French.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: So that is soon not going to be an issue, I take it.

You talk about union activities there. Why is there a union barrier to the Cree being given the union cards they need to work on the projects?

Mr. Brian Craik (Director of Federal Relations, Grand Council of the Crees of Quebec (Eeyou Istchee)): Basically, the collective agreement requires people to have certain qualifications before they can apply for employment, and the people in the Cree communities have difficulty getting access to the training required to be qualified because there aren't any programs set up to bring about that type of training.

The money we have for training right now largely goes into training for the needs in the Cree communities themselves. We don't have a lot of training money. And Hydro-Québec doesn't have any programs to bring people into the workforce.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Okay. You said for needs in the communities, but one of the greatest needs obviously is for employment, which is an area you've targeted. Are you looking for training in the area, or is the Cree community prepared to put up funds to send their people out to wherever training is offered?

Mr. Brian Craik: We don't have extra funding. We are funding right now.... For example, we train people to maintain the sewer and water systems in the communities. We train people to carry out the secretarial and administrative functions in the communities. We train people to operate small businesses, because we're trying to promote growth of the private sector in the communities. So all of our money pretty well is spent on this type of activity.

We would like to set up some programs that would be similar to some of the types of programs that were set up by the people on Walpole Island, I believe, where they actually target certain jobs within a local industry and get the local employers to cooperate with them and when the people graduate from the program they go right into jobs. We would like to do that, but we haven't managed to be able to do that with Hydro-Québec yet.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Is it because Hydro-Québec is not hiring people, or is it because of the language problem? What is the primary reason Hydro-Québec hasn't been able to cooperate with the Cree on this?

Mr. Brian Craik: As you may know, Hydro-Québec and the Crees have disagreed on Hydro-Québec's development plans in the north, so the overall context of the discussions was not very conducive to a lot of cooperation. That's been true in the last five or six years. I would say that before that there still weren't any efforts to try to get Crees into the workforce. We would like to be able to work more cooperatively with Hydro-Québec on that issue.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Perhaps I can add to that.

In 1986 we signed the La Grande 1986 agreement, which added to the existing La Grande complex. In the agreement there was a commitment by Hydro-Québec to train and hire 250 Crees to work for Hydro-Québec. It was their obligation. To date, I think only five of them have been hired, and this is twelve years later. One of the reasons they claim they are unable to hire is that they wanted funding from the federal government to train these people.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: I have another question from page 10 of your report. To quote:

It is an example of the demonstrated willingness of aboriginal people to become involved in development activities when the barriers to such involvement are dealt with through special measures.

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These special measures you talk about here, are you thinking of temporary measures until the Cree economy operates on an ongoing basis, or permanent measures?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: In this case we were talking about the Troilus Mine in the Mistissini area. This company approached the Crees directly when they discovered the deposit and wanted to have some kind of arrangement or agreement whereby development would happen peacefully. The Crees in the Mistissini were open to this, and they entered into discussions on how much employment and service they could provide.

While the Crees and these metal companies from Toronto were under discussion, the company received calls from the Quebec Mining Association and from members of the Quebec government discouraging them from talking to the Crees. The message they got was “We have already taken care of the Crees' concerns in the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. Their rights have already been settled. Their rights have been extinguished to this territory.”

Mr. Derrek Konrad: You didn't answer my question. Are you looking for employment measures for every activity? Now that these people have been involved they know the general way things work, and they would be able to transfer those skills and what not to the next mine without “special measures”—and I don't know what those measures might have been.

Mr. Brian Craik: Basically we're looking for measures that will serve to bring up the Cree population so that they can compete and become fully part of the regional economy. After they're at that point, then we won't need those special measures. But what you find is that you need to build a certain depth in the workforce before you can actually compete.

For example, we'll hire truck drivers at the Troilus Mine. Those people are qualified to do that activity. The Troilus Mine, though, is the only open-pit mine in the area, so they'd have to go far to find another open-pit mine for similar skills to be required. With time, we're hoping to build up that type of depth in the Cree workforce so that they could go and work in some of the mines around Chibougamau or some of the mines farther south. And they'll do that. History demonstrates that Crees have done that, but it's going to take special measures.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: I guess that was the answer I was looking for. Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you. I think it would be a good idea for the committee to go to this location during its northern trip. How far from Chibougamau is the Troilus mine?

[English]

How many miles from Chibougamau to Troilus—100?

[Translation]

Mr. Brian Craik: Two hours by car.

The Chairman: Two hours by car. Merci.

Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): I found your presentation very interesting because it gives a very open, broad overview of all your economic activities.

The Cree Construction Co. is the parent company of a number of Cree companies. You said it includes Air Creebec, the Cree Construction and Development Company, Servinor and Valpiro. Do any other companies come under the Cree Construction Co., or are these the only ones?

[English]

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Those are the only ones.

Mr. Claude Bachand: Those are the only ones. Okay.

[Translation]

I was surprised to see on page 11 of your brief that there is a problem involving the Radissonie, the Quebec government and the Cree Regional Tourism Council. There seem to be some problems. First of all, why was the Radissonie Regional Development Council established if it is contrary to the spirit of the James Bay agreement? What exactly is the problem? I understood that the Quebec government wanted all Cree tourism development to come under the Radissonie Tourism Development Council. Is that the problem?

[English]

Mr. Norman Gull: Definitely.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: I see. Do you know why the Radissonie Regional Development Council was set up last year? Why was it established when it is somewhat contrary to the spirit of the James Bay agreement? Is this the work of the Quebec government, in your view?

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[English]

Mr. Norman Gull: The Cree position has always been that sections 28.4 and 28.6 of the James Bay and North Quebec Agreement guaranteed the Cree their own outfitting and tourism association long before anything in the Radissonie area was created.

Our problem is that we're being asked to join the association régionale touristique, and we see that we're going to be just a minor player in tourism in the region. This is going to be controlled by Radissonie and by Quebec. We're being asked to join that, which is totally contrary to what we perceive as a treaty right in the JBNQA.

Incidentally, Quebec is involved in the creation of the Cree Outfitting and Tourism Association. It's supposed to be tripartite. We have had enormous difficulties in getting Quebec to come and sit and talk to us about the tripartite arrangement as provided for in the agreement.

We've been told that the region is for everybody and that if you want an association it should be open to everybody. But the perception we get is that we're going to be under the control of a regional council and the Cree are just going to be a minor player in that and their association is going to be governed by a regional council. So that's our basic problem.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: As I understand it, section 22 deals with the social and environmental impacts of all projects in Quebec. You state on page 19 that the government of Canada has violated its trust responsibilities, that it has not done its job. As regards section 22 and section 28.10.4, which you mention on page 19, are you now asking that the government of Canada pass legislation? I have not seen the provision in question, but I understood that parties were required to make an effort to implement sections 22 and 28.10.4 and that if these efforts did not suffice, the government of Canada could legislate to ensure that they would be implemented. Are you calling for the passage of legislation to implement sections 22 and 28.10.4?

Mr. Brian Craik: Yes, that is more or less it. Section 22.2.2 sets out a process for passing legislation on the environmental and social impacts of developments in the region. That applies to both acts and regulations. No legislation or regulations have been passed since the James Bay Agreement was signed, and the committees with this responsibility do not have the resources they require to recommend legislation and regulations to the government.

Section 28.10.4 states that Quebec and Canada shall take all reasonable measures, including but not limited to regulations, to establish priority to available and duly qualified local persons or entrepreneurs in respect of contracts and employment created by development in the territory. That obligation applies to Canada and Quebec.

Finally, section 22 states that Canada is required to legislate on this section if there are problems implementing it. Canada is now having trouble implementing the section, because no legislation is in place.

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Mr. Claude Bachand: Why is the government having difficulty implementing section 22? You even say that they have some legal arguments for preventing the implementation of the section. Why is the government behaving in this way?

Mr. Brian Craik: There are some disputes at the moment regarding the interpretation of this section. In the Décary case, at the time of the Eastmain project, the court decided that the implementation was determined by the type of project and not by the type of jurisdiction affected. In our view the jurisdictions are at issue. The judge's comment was not part of his decision. I believe it was just an obiter dictum comment but Canada is using that in its interpretation of this section of the Agreement. Because of that, in a recent project, Canada invited a New Brunswick company to express its opinion about a project on Cree territory, and the Crees on the committee in accordance with this section are not involved in reviewing the project. Consequently, the objectives of the James Bay agreement have been completely disregarded by Canada.

The Chairman: Thank you.

I have a question for you. We often hear about two Inuit, Zebede Nungat from Kengersook, talk about the James Bay Convention, the Crees and the Naskapis. Under the James Bay Agreement, does the territory extend quite far south, as far as Carrière Bay south of Val-d'Or? Many people ask us about the boundaries of the territory.

Mr. Brian Craik: The James Bay territory is described in the Agreement. It includes the communities of Val-d'Or, Senneterre, La Sarre, Amos, Quévillon...

The Chairman: I was expecting that answer. Thank you very much.

[English]

Mr. Earle.

Mr. Gordon Earle (Halifax West, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't want to simplify the issue too much by my remarks in response to the question raised by my colleague in terms of why there's trouble implementing the agreement, but I think a lot of it goes to the heart of what we really feel as human beings in terms of discrimination and prejudice. If we have people with an attitude of wanting to work and respect their fellow human being, then I think we'll find the answers in implementing these agreements.

On page 14 of your brief you talk about the efforts of the Oujé-Boagoumou community, and about that community in the 1950s and 1960s being “forcibly relocated on numerous occasions from their village by development”, and I think you added mining development.

It reminds me of, in Halifax city, the Africville community that was forcibly removed from its homelands under the guise of trying to do something to better the community. In reality, we saw later that ramps for the new bridge and everything went in and development went in. In essence it was a situation where the government was not sensitive to the concerns of the people living in the area, and it was, we could say, racial insensitivity and racial discrimination. We see a lot of that happening in communities.

So I come to my pet question that I ask quite often of people. When it comes to talking about mining development, particularly in the north—and I notice people have been relocated from their villages to accommodate this—is there anything being done now to make sure the people in your communities are going to benefit in a sustainable way from the mining activities, not just spin-off effects of jobs, but sharing in the actual royalties and the resources from these mines? Is anything being done along those lines?

Mr. Paul Wertman: That remains a very problematic issue.

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In the case of the community of Oujé-Boagoumou, which you referred to, that community as yet has not resolved all of its outstanding land and natural resources issues with the Province of Quebec and the Government of Canada and is in the process of preparing itself to undertake negotiations on a complementary agreement to the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement that would have the effect of formally incorporating that community into the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement.

Because of that community's particular history, having been forced to relocate so many times, the impact of the mining activities obviously is of great importance to them. They want to, in the course of those negotiations, try to introduce measures that would ensure that they do benefit from the kind of development that does go on in the region, unlike what has happened in the past.

As for the other Cree communities, they do not in any way benefit financially in a direct way from the development of mining resources on their traditional lands, and that remains problematic for all the communities.

Mr. Gordon Earle: The reason I stressed this point is because it seems to me when I look at what's happening in northern Canada, and I suppose one could say what's happened across the country throughout history, it's that usually the non-aboriginal society is coming in, developing the resources and maintaining real sustainable benefits from that either through the private sector or through government, and the communities where the land is are the ones that do not benefit in any meaningful way and quite often become marginalized as a result of the development activities.

You did mention in your presentation, on pages 9 and 10, one experience where a mining company seemed to move forward in a positive way, particularly with respect to employment, and special initiatives were undertaken there. But even in that case I don't know whether there's any actual sharing of their resources or the sustainable benefit from those activities.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Yes, the Troilus mine. We hold that up as an example. On the area of royalties, I was beginning to answer the question. When we were under negotiation with the Metale company on employment and servicing, the other issue on the table was royalties. The Metale company agreed to pay the Crees a certain share of royalties, which was unprecedented and was a major breakthrough. That's when the Quebec government and the Quebec Mining Association intervened directly with the company and put pressure on them not to include the royalties. The pressure came by way of threatening the subsidy that they were going to give this mining company if it gave the Crees their royalties.

Those are the kinds of barriers that have to be removed, not only instituting special measures, but say accommodating people and having sensitivity to these issues. That's all we ask for, that these barriers be removed. We can more than take care of ourselves in these situations if the barriers are not put up by governments.

Mr. Gordon Earle: I agree with you. I think that's an issue this committee has to seriously consider, that we not just address the surface issues, but we get to the heart of the matter, the real sharing of the resources. I think that's very important, so I appreciate your comments in that regard. Thank you.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Meegwetch.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Earle.

Before giving the floor to Mr. Finlay, I would like to ask you a question. You were speaking about the requirements under the James Bay Agreement. We know there were eight villages at the time the Agreement was signed. Since the federal and provincial governments had certain obligations toward the James Bay Cree, a new village was built. You say the village is based on a well-known world concept. It is an example of a case where the two governments decided that they were indeed required to build a new village.

I would like to know how much the village cost and whether this ninth village was built outside the Agreement.

[English]

Mr. Paul Wertman: If I understand your question correctly, you were asking first about the cost of constructing the village. It was approximately $45 million to construct the new village. You're quite correct; it has received a good deal of international recognition, and some people have referred to Oujé-Boagoumou as a model aboriginal village.

However, there are difficulties having to do with the community's long-term development. When Oujé-Boagoumou was being planned, the community members had a great many workshops and planning sessions to decide how that village was going to be built. The elders of that community told the community leaders that the community and its construction had to follow three basic principles.

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First, the village had to be in harmony with the environment. They didn't want the community to be built in such a way that it would be contrary to the traditional Cree values of conservation and protection of the environment. They said also that the village had to be economic; it had to work financially. There was no point in building a village only to have a welfare enclave. Thirdly, they said it had to have cultural relevance. It had to reflect the Cree culture.

Although these principles were articulated in Cree, taken together what they reflect is really a philosophy of sustainable development. That same philosophy is guiding the community in its efforts to provide for its long-term development.

That's where the difficulty comes in. In order to make sure the community continues to be viable, not only right now but also for the coming generations, the community feels it needs to have access to natural resources in a way that they will be able to rely on those resources for many generations to come, and this they don't have right now. That's a great concern to them, and it will be the subject, an important topic, in the course of the negotiations of a complementary agreement to the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Wertman. Mr. Finlay.

[English]

Mr. John Finlay (Oxford, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll try to keep my remarks and questions to three, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank the gentlemen who are here very much for an excellent presentation. The only thing that is very disappointing to me in it, Mr. Chairman, is that I've heard all these stories before in the last four years and I'm getting a little sick of hearing them.

First, I wish you had given me some figures with respect to total population in this area, both of Cree and non-Cree and so on, just roughly, because this may or may not bear on some of the things you're discussing here. If I'm asking for too much now, maybe you could send it to us, sir, and I won't hold up proceedings now.

I read on page 7 for instance that:

Forestry activity presently produces 1.2 billion dollars of revenues annually for Quebec and supports the employment of over 15,000 people, but few Crees benefit from this activity.

I take it that much of this area is of course treed and forested, and therefore the Crees should benefit from this activity. My first question is that one. Can I have a little more information? You have a lovely map there—mine is not that good. I'm sure I can get a copy of that agreement.

The second question involves something that's mentioned twice in your presentation, and that is the La Grande extension agreement, I'm calling it, of 1986. I may not have the right name, but the purpose of it is fairly clear. What you said, Chief, is that there are 250 jobs and you have five so far.

I don't think we should use lawyers and courts to solve every problem in modern society; in fact, I abhor it. But can you sue Hydro-Québec when they don't seem to be able to do what they're supposed to be doing? It doesn't seem to me it's a terribly difficult problem if you get over the prejudice and the monolithic attitude that Hydro-Québec takes to a lot of things, including Newfoundland and some other things. It might cost you a lot of money; it might not be worth it. I'd rather do it by compromise and agreement, and I'm sure you would too. But I'm not sure that when survival is at stake you can allow this sort of foot dragging.

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I'd like to know, for the Radissonie Regional Development Council, what administrative area is involved. It seems a) to be a duplication and b) to be a sort of false front to make sure Quebec decides what is going to be done and not the Cree. I am delighted with what you tell me, where there have been successes with Air Creebec and so on.

My third question, Mr. Chairman, is right near the end. When I say I have heard all this before, I have heard before from Chief Coon Come that co-management means something to the Cree. It means something to me and it means something I think to the Department of Indian Affairs. But maybe it doesn't mean the same thing somehow to Canada and to the Government of Quebec as it means to the Cree, because quite clearly it isn't working. It wasn't working three years ago and it isn't working right now, and I don't know when we're going to fix it. I will do what little I can.

Mr. Chairman, I'm certainly going to want to know on page 19, section 22, which has to do with environment and social problems.... Canada can legislate it if it cannot get agreement. I take it from what you said, Mr. Craik, that there is some difference of opinion between the Crees and the Government of Canada. Am I being too naive to suggest that there is a considerable difference of agreement between the Government of Quebec and the Cree, and that perhaps the Government of Canada is unwilling in the present political atmosphere to do what maybe it should do? I thought so.

Then we look at section 28.10.4 and it says we should take reasonable measures to ensure adequate representation, if I understand you. I am not familiar with 28.10.4, Mr. Chairman. Before too long we are going to have to have DIAND back here and find out whether in fact they have any intention of dealing with some of these problems.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Go ahead, Mr. Craik.

[English]

Mr. Brian Craik: I will respond to some of these; I will maybe start backwards. The main emphasis of section 22 is social impacts and in getting the Crees into development. That is the main emphasis in that section. The problem is that environment departments are used to worrying more about groundhogs than they are people. So you get a total ignorance of social impacts and people who focus on the environmental impacts to the detriment of the societies in the area. It's not that the Crees are not interested in the environment; they're very interested in the environment.

The section says there will be policies, regulations, and laws to regulate how development occurs in the territory. There aren't any. Why aren't there any? Ask the people who Canada has on the committee. Canada goes line by line over what they are doing on the committee and says, you cannot have a date for that, and yes, you can have a date for that but no background time. So the people on the committee for Canada are completely useless. They haven't any time. They are not paid to do anything outside of just what they have there.

The committee itself has a half-time secretary working for it. The Quebec members of the committee are asked by Quebec to participate on a voluntary unpaid basis.

So where does the work get done? The Crees do as much of the work as they can. We have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years trying to get this committee moving. It is called the James Bay Advisory Committee on the Environment. It doesn't work.

As far as I can see, the departments of environment are actually implementing a strategy to kill the James Bay agreement, because that is one of the core parts of the James Bay agreement.

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The other part of the James Bay agreement that the governments have acted to kill is section 28, which is economic development. If you look at section 28, it's driven by, again, a joint committee. It's a committee on economic development policy.

The committee met about three times in 1978. The Canada members said, “Well, we really don't have a mandate to do anything, but we'll sit here and listen to you.” The Quebec members said, “We can't deal with this committee, because our government has a policy of not sitting directly at a table with the Crees and Canada at the same table. It's a matter of jurisdiction.” The committee is therefore defunct and hasn't met since 1978, so we've missed out on 20 years of policy development for the James Bay territory. There are no special economic development policies for the territory to implement this agreement. This agreement actually calls for those policies.

If you go back to the Radissonie Regional Development Council, in fact the problem is Quebec's.... The understanding the Crees had with Quebec when the project was built was that Radisson would be folded up. They were going to close up the town. There was no real need for it after the project was constructed.

Mr. John Finlay: Which project?

Mr. Brian Craik: The La Grande project.

There are a few local people up there who are trying to establish themselves as part of the local community, but in fact there's no graveyard in Radisson. Nobody considers it their hometown. It's strictly a hotel community, a former construction camp. And yet Quebec has given the Radissonie Regional Development Council the main role in determining what kind of development goes on in that territory.

After Mr. Bouchard met with the Cree chiefs to talk about the opening of the Waswanipi sawmill, which was a good initiative, he turned around and went to Chibougamau and said to the people there, “We have to occupy the territory”. Well, the territory is already occupied. It says in the agreement that the Crees are citizens of Quebec and Canada. What's the problem? Why can't the Crees have a central role in development?

So if you look at the question about suing Hydro-Québec, we have a lot of things we could sue Hydro-Québec and Canada and Quebec on. We have an omnibus court case, which is slowly grinding along and on which we're spending probably $1 million a year developing, to sue Canada and Quebec on the agreement.

As you might know, it's very difficult to get in an agreement a commitment from a company that yes, 150 Crees will be employed on the project, because you have to have qualified people. You have to have certain criteria. You have to make sure these people are actually doing something, other than just being on a pay list. So there's a need for some cooperation. There's a need for some programs. There's a need to work it out.

All of that to say the assessment we have is if we went and sued Hydro-Québec on that commitment, it would be difficult to get a court order that Hydro-Québec now hire 150 people. A court might say, “Well, put in place the programs necessary to employ Crees”, and we think we could do that on a more cooperative basis.

Mr. John Finlay: I thank you for the answer, and I would like to continue on that roll, but you know, it does get a little despairing when this continues.

Voisey's Bay was a great development. I thought maybe, being a large company that I've had a little bit to do with as a parliamentarian, they might know how to do it right. It doesn't seem they've learned very much. Here we have an example where it has been done right. I know you can't suddenly train someone, but that's where planning comes in. The mine is not going to go away. The resource is going to be there. Why not take the time to do it properly?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Mr. Chairman, you brought up the economic benefits from forestry. There's $1.2 billion extracted from Cree territory in forestry.

In the area of hydro development and hydro projects, there are $3.5 billion of sales from hydro projects located on Cree territory. Hydro-Québec generates 50% of their electricity from Cree territory, which is that $3.5 billion. Out of this, the federal government generates about $200 million just in GST alone on these activities, if not more.

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When we approach governments for services and funding our needs, we seem to be the burden. We're a financial burden on them, yet they generate all this revenue on our territory.

You mentioned Voisey's Bay. Somebody already paid $4 billion for Voisey's Bay, but the people living there don't have a village or community or essential sanitation services. Yet somebody already paid $4 billion for that. There's something wrong with that picture.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Finlay.

I have a brief question for Mr. Craik. There are more than 26 airports in the federal constituency of Abitibi. You spoke about the James Bay territory, the Cree and the Inuit. The federal government has introduced a policy to transfer airports, particularly the regional Val-d'Or airport, a large airport worth over $60 million. They are in the process of transferring it to a committee for $1. Given that Air Creebec has its head office in that airport, and given that Val-d'Or is located within the James Bay Agreement territory, are the Cree in favour of acquiring the airport for the cost of $1, in partnership with the regional committee established to look at the future of airports such as Waskaganish, Eastmain, Wemindji, Chisasibi and the airport on the Great Whale River?

My question is more specific. Has Transport Canada contacted Grand Chief Matthew Coon Come in order to find a way of transferring these airports to the James Bay Cree?

Mr. Brian Craik: There has been no contact between Transport Canada and the Grand Chief on these issues. Are we interested? We are very interested in this type of development.

The Chairman: I find it very strange that Transport Canada has not been in touch with you. Thank you.

Mr. Konrad.

[English]

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Boy, it's been just about a year now.

[Translation]

The Chairman: My memory did not fail me, Mr. Konrad. I represent the Cree who live in our area. They are our friends. They are contributing to the Canadian economy. Mr. Konrad.

[English]

Mr. Derrek Konrad: All right. Turning to page 16, it talks about your Cree Regional Economic Enterprises Corporation. By the sound of this, it didn't do very well last year. I'd like to know who the directors are, how they're elected, and to whom they give an account. Please make that short, because I have some follow-up questions. That's just to set the background.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: The Creeco Company is fully owned by the Cree Board of Compensation, which was set up in 1975 to administer the compensation funds we received in the initial signing of the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement. In order for it to conduct some economic activity, they decided to get into these areas, so they created a holding company.

As for the members of the Cree Board of Compensation, there are two representatives elected by general election from each Cree community. They're sort of the shareholders of Creeco. These shareholders then appoint people who they think have the skills and can accept the responsibilities of sitting on the board of directors of Creeco.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Do they submit annual reports to the Cree communities?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Yes. Every year at our annual general assembly, all the companies report to the general assembly of the Cree grand council.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Okay, that answered another question.

In what manner does it use any money it might make?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: There haven't been any substantial profits. Usually, when the one company is doing well, another one will be.... That's the benefit of a holding company: you can apply your profits against the losses of another. That's been the experience. There's very little profit coming from these companies.

Air Creebec started more than 20 years ago. I'd like to point out that Air Creebec was not subsidized by federal funding or Quebec government funding. We're not the regional carriers in the area, like Quebec Air. You may remember Nordair did receive federal government subsidies, but not Air Creebec.

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Mr. Derrek Konrad: How much money is in the enterprise corporation then?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: The Cree Board of Compensation presently administers approximately $136 million of capital. It's not all cash. That includes these companies. We don't know exactly how much each company would be worth.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: That's what I was asking, its net worth rather than its gross worth.

So over $100 million of assets is not performing at all for the Cree.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: The Board of Compensation invests this money and the money is allocated to the Cree communities on a per capita share. There is approximately $15 million of revenue from this money. Approximately 20% is reinvested and the rest is allocated to the Cree communities and to the Grand Council of the Crees to sustain its operations and other entities.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: When I'm looking at how much was put into this Cree Regional Economic Enterprises Corporation, what was put in initially, the entire settlement there or the compensation amount?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Approximately $50 million to $60 million was put into these companies.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: And it's not performing.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: No, the airline business is not doing well. Cree Construction is down. Valpiro was doing well. Servinor isn't doing as well as we had hoped.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Do you think you would be well advised to start investing outside of the area if you're looking at returning funds to the area for any use and then developing the lesser amount within the community?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: A lot of these companies do create Cree jobs, so that is some of the benefit, especially in the Cree Construction and Development Company. It is possible to fold up the companies and create a portfolio at Nesbitt Burns and then collect the revenue, but there are jobs to be lost.

Mr. Derrek Konrad: Of course, you could invest the interest, which is what some people would do.

That's it. Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Konrad.

Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Claude Bachand: I have three brief questions. I have tremendous respect for the great Cree people, who were here long before us. When the Europeans arrived, they tended to establish boundaries, but that did not prevent the Cree from expanding into Ontario and even to Manitoba. Today we have to deal with the boundaries we have.

The Cree from Ontario and Manitoba are somewhat envious of the socioeconomic conditions of the Cree in Quebec. I would like to know, first of all, whether you think the socioeconomic conditions of the Quebec Cree are better than those of the Cree living in Ontario and Manitoba. That's my first question.

My second question is about future economic development. Today we heard about what is going on, but you must have some type of planning for the development of areas you consider promising for the future. I would like to know whether you have already identified these areas of potential economic activity, in order to have some idea about what you will be doing in the next few years.

I come now to the last, but not the least, question. It is about the new policy of the Quebec government. My friends and I agree that we should find political solutions to problems, rather than taking them to the courts. One of the aspects of the new Quebec government policy is to establish a type of bipartite commission made up of the Aboriginal nations and Quebec. The idea would be to discuss problems relating to sections 22 and 28, tourism, which is problematic, and so on. The idea would be to try to find political, rather than legal, solutions to problems. I would like to know what you think about the Quebec government's policy on this and on other matters, such as the $125 million development fund, and the request made to the federal government to contribute $125 million more.

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I would like to have some idea about what you think of this policy. I know that your Grand Chief does not seem to agree with it completely, because I heard on the news that Matthew Coon Come did not agree with the Quebec government's policy. I would like to hear what you think of the policy.

[English]

Mr. Bill Namagoose: The northern Ontario situation and the Manitoba situation versus the Cree Quebec situation—you shouldn't compare those situations to others. We should compare our situation to what is the average Canadian standard of living. Those people in northern Ontario and Manitoba deserve the same standard of living as other Canadians and they should not be in the situation where we say we treat our native people better than they treat yours. That is a totally unacceptable situation.

On the Quebec policy, I know our grand chief has stated publicly for the chiefs of Quebec and through the Quebec government that a policy is a step down from the relationship we have now, whereby the Quebec government promotes a contractual relationship with the native people rather than a constitutional and treaty relationship that we enjoy now.

I prefer to treat our people as contractees or contracts...administering our people in that manner. We are not another Radisson. We are protected by the Constitution of Canada, section 35. That is the reason why it is there. People fought very hard for that constitutional protection. So we will not entertain a policy whereby we give up our constitutional rights to get basic community services we are entitled to anyway. So that's basically the problem with that.

We also understand that the federal government will not or has not committed to their share of the economic community fund that Mr. Chevrette is proposing. Since they have proposed a fund and said that Canada will contribute 50% of this, our understanding is the money is not secure and is not coming.

Mr. Norman Gull: You're talking about partnerships in that. That is one of our problems in the outfitting and tourism association. We have had discussions with Quebec. We've also had discussions with the Radissonie. The Cree are not opposed to partnerships, joint ventures and that. Our difficulty is that we have to do our part under the auspices of the Cree outfitting and tourism association.

We have no problem in doing joint ventures with other nations, be they Inuit or be they the population of Radisson.

That's the difficulty with Quebec. Quebec has a problem with that. They are saying no, we cannot recognize your association and at the same time have an association for Radisson, of which you are a member. We have argued against that for the last three years, on paper and in meetings.

Mr. Claude Bachand: John, I have one question that wasn't answered.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. John Finlay): Yes, sir.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand: In your view, what economic sectors should be developed for the Cree?

Mr. Brian Craik: In the territory at the moment, there are many economic developments in which the Cree aren't very involved. Consequently, the Cree are asking to be involved in the future. They would like development to respect environmental integrity and to allow the Cree to continue their traditional way of life. Consequently, if there is a hydro-electric development project on the territory, it should not be imposed on the Cree. There should be a discussion about each project, and any development should have a minimal impact on the environment.

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The Cree are not interested in the type of mega-projects we've seen in the past, which have major social and environmental impacts. Next, the Cree want to be involved in mining and forestry development, but they are having trouble with forestry development, because at the moment it is not being carried out in a way that minimizes the environmental impact. We think that in 20 or 30 years, even the non-Aboriginal communities that currently depend on forestry development will experience a dramatic drop in business because there is too much harvesting going on in the territory.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Earle.

[English]

Mr. Gordon Earle: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have with me a document called “Partnership, Development and Achievement,” and I must confess that I haven't had a chance to go through this in any great depth. I'm not sure if this is the same document my colleague was referring to when he spoke about the relationship between Quebec and the Cree and working bilaterally. As I skim through this document, I see a lot of talk about a threesome and about tripartite...and still having a role with the federal government.

In my initial reading of this document it strikes me as a lot of fancy words and the same principles as in the federal government's Gathering Strength. I'm looking for what substance there is to it and what it will really do to alleviate some of the conditions you described here today. I don't really see that forthcoming at this point.

I'm just wondering what your views are with respect to the sections in this document on economic development, and second, on taxation and aboriginal people. There seems to be a move now to move away from the special taxation status that aboriginal people have in some areas and to move toward having aboriginal people tax themselves and create revenue in that way. I guess there are pros and cons to that.

So I'm just wondering what your views are on this particular document in terms of what it's really going to do to help you advance economic development.

Mr. Brian Craik: One of the things that document does is say, forget the history. We're going to start new with contracts, and trust us, we'll have a relationship.

The fear the Crees and many aboriginals have is that it can't be trusted; the contracts are going to be changed. In fact it even hints in there that we can maybe put an end to the contracts for certain reasons at times.

Also, it says you have no access to the international protections that are afforded to peoples. If you'll notice, the document carefully avoids the use of the word “peoples”. Canada itself has only recently accepted its usage. It now seems to be in favour of using the word “peoples”, and of admitting certain access by aboriginal peoples in Canada to the international protections. That document carefully avoids that.

So Quebec is 10 or 20 years behind in terms of its understanding of aboriginal rights and of its development in that regard.

The document also talks about the creation of a fund of $250 million. Well, there are about 64 aboriginal communities in Quebec, and it talks about the spending of that funding over five years. So $50 million per year over 64 communities means that we're talking about adding maybe $800,000 a year per community. Anybody who knows the situation in these communities knows that this is a drop in the bucket.

The real problem we have is first, getting the communities to a point where they can begin to think about employment and training and forget about their problems of just living in overcrowded housing without sewer systems, without water systems, and that type of thing. Once people get beyond that point, then they can start to think about educating their kids, accumulating a little wealth, and improving their situation. Most communities are not up to that point. The Crees may be better off than some communities, but the future is very uncertain, because the Crees don't have the means to develop themselves.

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It seems that in Canada we have this formula for development where we say natives no longer have any access to natural resources, although they depended entirely on the natural resources to develop their societies over millennia. We say no longer do you have any access to natural resources; from now on you depend on the federal government. And then everybody resents the fact that natives depend on the federal government and the fact that the cost is great.

The cost is going to be a lot more than $250 million to bring those 64 communities up to a modern standard and into the economies. The funds are inadequate. You may say that's a daunting task, but we have to find sources of revenue. It's why we have to find sources of revenue. We have to put an end eventually to this vicious circle we're in.

Mr. Gordon Earle: Well, that cost factor relates to your last comment, and it relates back to our chairperson's comment about the devolution of the airports to local authorities by Transport Canada.

My understanding is that this program was going well when it first started. Now, however, as the budgets and the economic things got tighter, some airports are having difficulty being turned over, because there's a debt, a cost, that comes with it.

I know, for example, that in the maritimes, in the Halifax area, there are still a lot of problems associated with that airport being put into the hands of a local authority. There are a lot of concerns there with respect to what it will cost the local authority if they take it over to bring it up to scratch, in terms of clean-up, modernizing the facilities, and so forth.

I just throw that out as a word of caution. While that potential for economic development may rest with assuming responsibility for those airports, just be aware of the other side of the coin, too, so you don't find you're caught in that circle of not having the resources to adequately do it.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you.

I would like to ask a question. We hear about the economic development of the James Bay Cree, but when governments and Canadians are involved with the James Bay Agreement, people say: "They get grants; they get this and they get that." What contribution do you make to the Canadian and Quebec economy? When you were given grants a few years ago, there was a return for Quebec and Canadian workers, the companies and all those who helped you build and who worked with you.

It was always said that when you were given a dollar, 97 cents went back into the pockets of white people. Today, we know that you work very hard and that you want to create something in your area with every dollar you receive. What has been your contribution to the economy of Canada and Quebec since the signing of the James Bay Agreement?

[English]

Mr. Bill Namagoose: With respect to the funding that goes to the Cree communities for housing or other infrastructure, all the suppliers we use are from Canada, mostly Quebec. So all the money is returned back to Quebec society, Quebec manufacturers and Quebec service providers.

As for the salaries gained by Crees, we buy our services, goods and services, again, from Quebec companies, namely in the Val d'Or, Chibougamau, Chapais, and Quévillon area. So it's returned to the Quebec economy.

I know the community of Val d'Or has greatly benefited from the presence of Crees with our offices there 10 years ago. In Val d'Or they said Val d'Or had old trees and Crees, and I think it's still the same situation in Val d'Or.

So there is a benefit from that for Quebec society or Canadian society. We don't bring in American workers. We don't buy from American companies. It's all Quebec companies and Canadian companies.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, that was an excellent answer.

Mr. Bryden.

[English]

Mr. John Bryden (Wentworth—Burlington, Lib.): Thank you very much.

I'm sorry I'm late, gentlemen, but I did read through the different texts. I have to tell you that your testimony distresses me quite a lot, because there should have been no question that it should have been a success. The James Bay agreement should have worked. And I still don't quite understand why it doesn't work.

I do know that you're probably caught between provincial political aspirations and your own needs and that this may account for some of the problems. I do note that Newfoundland is another society, shall we say, that got the short end of the stick in the whole James Bay development.

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I don't know where to go on all this, but I can tell you that we're going to look.

But tell me just a little bit of something. Rather than economic development, comment on the raison d'être, the reason for being of the communities that live up there. It's one thing to say we need jobs, but what is it that the people themselves need spiritually, if you will, to want to continue to live in Cree territory? What is missing from the equation that we need to find?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: We thought the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement would provide a large part of the answer. When we signed the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement people were told and believed they had a choice to pursue the traditional way of life or seek a wage economy. And the people had those choices. Just the fact that you have those choices is very important. To be given choices rather than being pushed into a certain area to which they may not be ready or willing to go generates pride and dignity in people.

If you consider the Crees, the Crees have travelled 100 years in the space of 20 years since we signed the James Bay agreement. And we're slowly adapting. So we need time for the land and the people to heal from what's happened at the La Grande complex, where two-fifths of our territory has been greatly impacted.

As I said, we've invested a lot of our compensation moneys, making a lot of efforts to create a wage economy, to create that second option for people. But it's very important to have that option.

The next phase would be to get the Crees, our native people across Canada, involved in resource development. That's where the native people live; it's always in the forestry or mining areas or areas targeted for development. Stop marginalizing the Crees and native people from getting access to the revenues stemming from these lands.

I get figures of $3.5 billion that flow from hydro sales and $1.2 billion of forestry sales. Why don't we have access to those revenues? Then we don't become a burden and we can create our own economies.

We need to not only stay on the communities or reserve; we need to break out of the reserves and get involved in surrounding areas, especially in our case. We don't want to be ghettoized and put on reserve ghettos to be created in our area.

Mr. Paul Wertman: I just wanted to add a couple of points to what Bill said. I think you were quite right in your question of pointing out some of the difficulties, which are strictly local in nature. But I think there are also some very general kinds of issues at play that have to do with the place aboriginal peoples occupy in our Canadian society as a whole. What's happening in the James Bay territory is in some ways very symptomatic of the conditions of aboriginal peoples across the country, what happens when they become marginalized, when they are dispossessed and have no political voice.

That's something that has to be looked at very carefully. We have to find ways of accepting the realities of aboriginal peoples in our civic lives and what that means in terms of their long-term sustainability.

With respect to the specific circumstances of the Crees in James Bay, unlike historic treaties, where it's sometimes problematic to reconstruct what may have been the spirit and intent of those treaties and what the understandings were of the parties to these agreements, the James Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement is a somewhat different case. This is where the spirit and the intent is fairly explicit in the preamble to that agreement.

When they signed that agreement it was very clear to the Crees that what they were signing was a process whereby they would be empowered to become full participants in the economic, social, and political life of that territory. Since that time they've had nothing but difficulties in getting respect from the various parties to that agreement to live up to the explicit commitments in that agreement.

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The preamble to that agreement implies a number of conditions that would be necessary for the Cree communities to develop themselves and to ensure their long-term sustainability. Some of those elements are explicitly defined in the agreement and some aren't. Nonetheless, the spirit and intent is there, and the Crees are having difficulty even getting those explicit sections implemented, much less the larger kind of vision that was contemplated at the time the agreement was signed.

Mr. John Bryden: Thank you. I have another question, if I may.

You made passing reference to education. Can you comment on that? How is education administered? Who administers it? Is it competitive, as far as the students being turned out in terms of the larger society you might want to compete in?

Mr. Brian Craik: I'll reply to that.

Before the James Bay agreement, education was run partially by Quebec and partially by the Department of Indian Affairs. There were no parents' committees. I think there were two Cree teachers. When you sent your kids off to school in the morning, it was like sending them into another world. The community was not part of the school and the school was certainly not part of the community.

Today, since then, all the communities have primary and secondary education school committees. There are something in the neighbourhood of 300 Crees working in the system. I can't remember the exact figure for the number of teachers, but for full teachers it's something like 75 or 80 Cree teachers in the system.

We went from having, in 1973, two people, I think it was, in post-secondary education, to today, where we have over 400. We would like to get more people into university education. We have a lot going into technical colleges and colleges of various sorts. It's coming. We have one person who's going to be a medical doctor and four lawyers right now.

Mr. John Bryden: Who's managing the facilities? Is the Quebec government in charge of education for the Crees now, or have the Crees taken over entirely and are on their own?

Mr. Brian Craik: This is a mistake in the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples. That commission never got to come to terms with what's happening at the Cree School Board.

The Cree School Board is probably the best example in Canada of aboriginal people taking over education. We have a whole team of people who work on curriculum development. By their choice, the communities are introducing Cree as the basic language in the schools. In all communities, it's up to a level of grades 1 and 2. In some of the communities it's now up to grade 3, and we're hoping to go beyond that so it will be the basic language. The everyday language that will be spoken will be Cree.

What they're noticing with the graduates out of the program now is that they have more confidence. People say of those children that they speak Cree like the old people do. They don't hesitate. They have a better vocabulary. They also have more self-confidence.

What we're hoping, and what the school board is telling everybody, is that these kids are finally people who accept themselves as Crees, and with that confidence are able to go on and study other things, like the French language, the English language, science studies, and so on, and they're beginning to do that. It's only in the last five years that we're starting to see these kids come up into secondary education, and we'll see what happens over the next little while.

Mr. John Bryden: Going back to Mr. Namagoose's point earlier, or maybe it was yours, the fact that the projects that are there are not hiring Crees.... You or someone made the observation that the excuse was not having the skills and that kind of thing. If your education system is functioning as well as you say, it ought to be functioning in a way that produces people who can be employed up there. If they're not being employed and they do have the qualifications, what's going wrong?

• 1300

Mr. Brian Craik: Once again, language is still a problem. It probably knocks out half of the graduates at the present time.

Mr. John Bryden: The French language?

Mr. Brian Craik: The fact that their capacity in French isn't strong enough.

We do have graduates who could be employed by the companies, it's obvious, and we do have people with administrative experience and knowledge and so on who could be employed by Hydro-Québec and by the forestry companies. The fact is they're not. Why aren't they? I think it's partially the need to build up the counselling programs at the school level and to gradually get kids into the stream where they're going to have the qualifications to get into development in the territory.

As I say, there are some now who could but who aren't. There's no effort on the part of these companies to go into the Cree communities and look for people. There could be more effort made on the part of the Crees to push these companies into starting to set up some programs and starting to cooperate with us by having career fairs in the communities and things like that, but it just isn't there yet.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you.

Mr. Bryden.

[English]

Mr. John Bryden: I have some very brief comments. I just want to you to know that at least as far as I'm concerned—and I can only speak for myself in this committee—your words are very much being heard here, and I intend to continue to struggle to find answers.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Bryden.

Do you have another question, Mr. Finlay?

[English]

Mr. John Finlay: I just wonder whether Mr. Craik.... I heard the story, for what it's worth, and I'm sure it illustrates something we all have to get over.

Basic reading for every member on this committee should be at least the summary of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, because respect and recognition and what we're talking about when we're talking about co-management or tripartite management.... How you can have a reasonable say when there are three parties at the table, unless you have some more clout or more political interest or more something than that, is very difficult for me to understand.

I merely tell the story that someone told me. Yes, they had a good young aboriginal—I don't say Cree or Inuit—and he went to work at the mill and apparently worked there for a month or two. Then when someone inquired how Joe was doing, they said, “Well, he left.” Why did he leave? Well, he spent a month eating his lunch in a corner of the lunchroom and no one spoke to him, and eventually it got to him.

Humans can be very ignorant of what's required. I guess the only way to deal with it is to try to get somebody at the top, or somebody in human relations, or somebody, to understand that something most Canadians prize.... We talk about it a lot, but in our local communities sometimes we don't put it into effect very well.

I guess prejudice is what I'm talking about.

Mr. Brian Craik: In the case of the Metale discussions on the Troilus project, if it hadn't been for senior management, if it had only been up to middle management, we wouldn't have had an agreement.

Mr. John Finlay: Exactly.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you. There are some issues we did not have time to discuss today, such as sports, which is an economic issue as well. We did not have an opportunity to talk about your young Cree athletes, but there are some leaders coming along there. I would like to talk a little about sports in closing. How are things going in Cree communities as regards hockey, baseball and broomball? Please tell us a little about that.

You are smiling, Mr. Gull.

[English]

Mr. Norman Gull: Well, there is a great deal of activity in recreational sports, and certainly a lot of the native youth and the Cree youth participate in the region on a variety of sports teams. I would say there's good competition between the Cree and the non-Cree. It is something that's been growing very much in the last few years, especially with the.... As I said earlier, over 50% of the population is under the age of 25. So there are lots of sports, hockey, baseball, and all kinds of things.

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[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you very much. Did you have some questions, Mr. Bryden?

[English]

Mr. John Bryden: I have one final question. You alluded to something that I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about.

There is a problem of language in the equation, of English versus French, in the finding of jobs for Crees. Is that what you are saying?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: Yes, there is a language problem. All Hydro-Québec facilities, operations, and equipment are operated in French—in the Le Grande complex.

Mr. John Bryden: So there isn't, as is required elsewhere in the country, a lot of provision for the ability to function in both languages. Hydro-Québec doesn't have a similar policy to allow employees to operate in both languages, even though it's a publicly owned utility.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: When you go to the Le Grande complex, all the signs and everything are in French. Manuals, technical manuals, and technical operations—they're all in the French language.

Mr. John Bryden: They're not provided in English.

Mr. Bill Namagoose: No.

Mr. John Bryden: I see. So the shoe fits on one foot but not on the other.

Mr. Paul Wertman: I think it's fair to say there are two levels of problems. One is the one we just discussed, which is the language problem, and that overlays the problem Mr. Finlay referred to in his earlier comment.

Mr. John Bryden: Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: This is starting to get interesting. Go ahead, Mr. Finlay.

[English]

Mr. John Finlay: I agree with Mr. Bryden, but that situation in Hydro-Québec would be the same in Hydro-Québec in Sept-Iles, Montreal, or anywhere else, would it not?

Mr. Bill Namagoose: It's the same.

Mr. John Finlay: Under the present Quebec language laws—

Mr. John Bryden: That's not the point.

Mr. John Finlay: I just don't want to—

Mr. John Bryden: To pursue the thought a little further, I take it that in the James Bay agreement there was no provision for employment of the Crees or involving the Crees in both languages. Was the James Bay agreement silent about language? Was it just by default that it's French only?

Mr. Brian Craik: At the time it wasn't that big a problem. The project was built partially with Bechtel Corporation, so there was lots of English around. The reality was that under the education section, the Crees got the right to choose whether they were going to educate their kids in Cree, English or French, but after you've been educated in English in the Cree community, your possibility for employment, at least in the public corporations, is minimal.

Mr. John Bryden: Just to finish the point, there was no provision in the agreement for the public employers to offer services or opportunities in both languages.

Mr. Brian Craik: There were provisions for the employers to offer opportunities in Cree, but most of them haven't done it.

Mr. Paul Wertman: Just as an aside to that, there are provisions within the James Bay agreement that exempt the Crees from Bill 101.

Mr. John Bryden: That's very interesting. I think this might be an area of great interest to look at.

Thank you.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Thank you. In closing, I would like to say that I visited almost all the Cree communities in the James Bay region this winter. On your lands, in category I and II communities and so on, when people arrive in your town, they see that you respect the official languages. Signs are in French, English and Cree. Is it right? I saw many signs in English and in Cree—

Mr. Brian Craik: That is further south.

The Chairman: That is further south, is it? I see, thank you.

Committee members, today we have heard from witnesses who explained the economic situation of the James Bay Cree. In my view, the James Bay Cree have always respected the laws of Canada. I am proud of your work and of that of the two James Bay Cree on the future of the Cree and young Cree.

The James Bay Cree have always wanted to negotiate to find solutions with the Canadian or Quebec governments, in accordance with the James Bay Agreement.

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However, when dialogue breaks down or there is an obstacle somewhere, court procedures are the same for the James Bay Cree, for the governments and for Canadians generally. Carry on with your demands. You will have my respect in all your future demands. Meegwetch.

Thank you very much. See you next week.

The meeting is adjourned.