HAFF Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, April 16, 2002

Á

1110

The Chair (Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.))

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon--Souris, PC)

The Chair

Assistant Commissioner Dawson Hovey (Commanding Officer “A” Division, RCMP)

Á

1115

Á

1120

The Chair

Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Canadian Alliance)

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

Mr. Dale Johnston

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

The Chair

Mr. Dale Johnston

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

The Chair

Mr. Joe Jordan (Leeds--Grenville, Lib.)

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

Á

1125

Mr. Joe Jordan

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

The Chair

Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ)

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

Mr. Pierre Brien

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie--Bathurst, NDP)

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Á

1130

A/Commr Dawson Hovey

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Assistant Commissioner Hovey

Mr. Borotsik

Assistant Commissioner Hovey

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

---

CANADA

Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

---

NUMBER 058

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, April 16, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Á  (1110)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Peter Adams (Peterborough, Lib.)): Colleagues, if we could begin, I would ask the mobile media to leave. With regard to the other camera, all members of the committee should know that we did have a request last evening, in accordance with the report of this committee that encourages televising of committees, for a camera to be here. The procedure is the camera has to be here before the meeting. It has to stay there and it covers the proceedings from gavel to gavel.

    You should know for our personal information—already we see technical people working over there—that there is a problem for media in these cases where they decide to cover a particular committee, because often the committee rooms are not set up to give them sound. They're actually working on that at the moment. But that's something we should bear in mind, because we will be returning to the televising of committees in June, as you all know.

    Before I introduce our witnesses and the topic for today, there are a couple of things I would like to say. First of all, as you know, our next meeting, on Thursday, is a meeting of the steering committee. Next Tuesday the standing committee for the legislature of Ontario is visiting Parliament Hill. They have asked to meet with us in some way during that day. They have a fairly elaborate schedule, and they're looking at the sorts of things that we look at. They are our equivalent in the Parliament of Ontario.

    Now, I was wondering whether—and this is something I need a sense of now, before the steering committee meeting—it wouldn't be appropriate to allocate part, at least, or all of next Tuesday's meeting to a formal meeting with this standing committee from Ontario.

    A voice: Can't hurt.

    The Chair: What do you think? I'm looking around.

    A voice: Yes.

    The Chair: Well, colleagues, if we can leave it at that, if you've given me permission to do that, I will. When we have the steering committee report, those of us who are on the steering committee will bear that in mind. I thank you very much for that.

    The order of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), is consideration of security on the Hill. Last week we had the meeting with General Cloutier and his colleague, Mr. Thievierge. Welcome to you both once again.

    We said then that we would follow up. One of the matters that arose, colleagues, was the matter of split jurisdiction in various ways—split jurisdiction here, actually in the Centre Block, but also the jurisdiction between security on the Hill, the Ottawa police, and the RCMP. In particular, we were interested in the security installation at Bank Street. We agreed that today we would conduct this expedition into the remoter parts of Parliament Hill, so that we could go down and see this facility, which is staffed by the RCMP.

    The idea of today's meeting is that there will be a short briefing by our guests. Then we will proceed on this expedition. A fleet—General Cloutier, this is correct—of green buses is waiting for us at the West Block, as we speak.

    A voice: Do we need our passports?

    The Chair: Well, listen, if you haven't brought your passports, you have a problem. You're supposed to be members of Parliament. You should be prepared for expeditions even into remote places like the Bank Street entrance to Parliament Hill.

    I'd like to welcome Rick Borotsik, the new whip of the PCs, to our committee. Rick, you join us as this committee, which normally never travels, is undertaking a very special journey.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon--Souris, PC): I was wondering, Mr. Chair—

    The Chair: A point of order, I hope.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: It is a point of order, Mr. Chairman, and I do thank you for the welcome back as a reconstituted whip. I've been here before. I'm very pleased to be here and look at the faces on both sides of the table. I would like to know, however, as a point of order, whether there was a budget approved for this travel.

    The Chair: The matter of budget was discussed in great detail, Rick. Yes, thank you.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: Colleagues, I'd like to introduce our other witnesses. We have Assistant Commissioner Dawson Hovey.

    Assistant Commissioner, we're grateful to you for coming. We know it has been particularly difficult for you to be here. We understand that. Thank you very much indeed.

    We have Chief Superintendent Line Carbonneau—Line, thank you very much for coming—and Superintendent Roger Brown. Perhaps if and when you speak or when you're introduced, you can give us your responsibilities and so on in the RCMP.

    Assistant Commissioner, we're in your hands.

[Translation]

    Assistant Commissioner Dawson Hovey (Commanding Officer “A” Division, RCMP): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for inviting us here. I'd like to introduce my colleagues, Chief Superintendent Line Carbonneau, who is the officer in charge of Protective Operations in the National Capital Region, and Superintendent Roger Brown, who is the Officer in charge of the Executive-Diplomatic Protection Section as well as a number of others...

[English]

    As you say, I am the commanding officer for “A” Division in the RCMP, which includes the national capital region. My responsibilities are really twofold. On the one hand, we are responsible for criminal operations or investigations under the RCMP's purview in the NCR, and also protective operations. More particularly, since September 11 we have been working very closely with our colleagues in the House of Commons, the Senate, the Ottawa Police Service, as well as all the local police forces in the national capital region, to ensure the appropriate level of security is provided to Parliament Hill.

    I believe you've been well briefed on the committee of working officials as well as the senior officials committee that oversees security on Parliament Hill. Chief Superintendent Carbonneau is my representative on the working level. And the senior committee gets our commissioner, Giuliano Zaccardelli, who represents the force at that level.

    I'm advised there are a number of areas you're particularly interested in. I'll try to address them very quickly.

    In terms of mandate, the force's authority for protecting Parliament Hill is derived from a number of sources, including the RCMP Act, the Security Offences Act, a number of cabinet directives, as well as letters of designation.

    The resources we have in protective operations are normally about 250. At this point we have about 25 additional working in the national capital region.

    We provide security to about 3,000 VIPs, including members of Parliament and senators when they are in the NCR, diplomats—ambassadors and what not—and also about 320 locations. Of course the most important location to Canadians and to the force in the NCR is the Parliament Hill precinct.

    At our Parliament Hill detachment we have15 members, all fluently bilingual. I understand there was some concern raised about that, but I must say that after September 11 I had to bring in an additional 15 members, followed by 50 members from right across the country. The 50 transfers were brought in temporarily to deal with our protective policing pressures. Unfortunately, the majority of these were not bilingual, with the result that at some times we had personnel stationed on Parliament Hill who were not fluent in both official languages. But our objective is to be able to offer the service in both official languages in the national capital region, which is very important to us.

    Some of the other protective policing functions we provide in the national capital region that may be transparent to you as users are things like VIP security, where we provide security to designated protectees—heads of state, different ambassadors, where the threat and the risk assessment justifies that; executive diplomatic protective services, which is Roger Brown's responsibility—this includes the Parliament Hill detachment as well as the Supreme Court; our emergency response team, or ERT; a demonstration team, which handles about 400 demonstrations a year on Parliament Hill; projects; and as well, property security, where we look after a number of properties outside of the parliamentary precinct.

    I understand you had some interest in taxis. At present, taxis entering Parliament Hill are all verified by the force. Upon being checked, they are granted access to Parliament Hill. Some taxis refuse to enter the checkpoint, but they are not refused access once they have been verified.

    Our checks of a number of individuals since we established this procedure have surfaced violations under the Highway Traffic Act and under the Immigration Act, among others. So there is very good reason for our verifying unauthorized persons entering the Parliament Hill area.

Á  (1115)  

    At present, all authorized persons are being granted access to Parliament Hill via the Metcalfe and Bank Street areas, and unauthorized vehicles are being checked at the Bank Street extension point prior to being granted access to the Hill. Our members are also being vigilant in observing pedestrians visiting Parliament Hill, whenever possible.

    A check of a vehicle at the Bank Street check-stop would normally include a visual inspection of the trunk, under the hood, and underneath the car using mirrors, in an attempt to detect explosive devices, as well as to act as a deterrent for anybody who may consider gaining access to the Hill.

    The level of security we provide to Parliament Hill is dictated by the threat and risk assessment process. This process is arrived at by gathering information from a number of sources, both national and international. We work very closely, of course, with our colleagues at CSIS, and our information is shared with security staff at the House of Commons, as well as the Senate, to ensure there is a broader understanding of what we're doing and why we're doing it.

    I believe you are also interested in cameras. A new camera security system is currently being installed on the Hill, and we hope to have it functional by the end of May. Access to the cameras will be to not only the RCMP, of course, but also the House of Commons and the Senate.

    To ensure that the different players in the parliamentary precinct are up to speed on security issues, we have twice-weekly telephone conference calls with the House of Commons, the Senate, the RCMP and the Privy Council Office.

    I understand that issues of employee equity were raised. Our protective operations staff is currently composed of 18% females and 4% visible minorities. These are the people who are directly involved in providing protection to not only Parliament Hill, but all our other protectees in the national capital region.

    The temporary vehicle inspection station at Bank Street was established there—again, the emphasis being on temporary—to ensure that we were able to do adequate vehicle inspections. Another reason was for health and safety reasons, to assist our employees as well as the House of Commons and Senate staff who assist them, during inclement weather. So the facility really helps that quite a bit.

    I understand issues were raised concerning the security of MPs when they were outside the national capital region. This is normally the responsibility of the police of jurisdiction, be they municipal or provincial. In some jurisdictions it is members of the RCMP. If there is a political threat or a political action, the RCMP become involved and take the appropriate action.

    Those are my introductory comments, Mr. Chair. We will be happy to answer any questions you care to pose.

Á  (1120)  

    The Chair: Thank you very much.

    Colleagues, as the people at the checkpoint are waiting for us, perhaps we could have one round of the parties, with one very short question, including one very short response. Are you comfortable with that?

    Okay. Next, from the Canadian Alliance, is Dale Johnston.

    Mr. Dale Johnston (Wetaskiwin, Canadian Alliance): Thank you very much for your presentation.

    Last week, on Thursday, we were told that the risk assessment had not changed and it was considered high. You also said in your presentation today that the normal check of a vehicle would include an inspection under the hood and in the trunk. Yet I know there are people who drive through, and the only question they're asked is whether they have their House of Commons passes. The House of Commons passes are then shown at the checkpoint, and they are waved through.

    I'm wondering if the assessment is different on different vehicles, or if there are different classifications of risk. Just what is going on there? Do you have an explanation for what is happening?

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: You're correct that the threat and risk assessment have not changed. We looked at who we were checking and the amount of time we were spending, to make sure it was consistent with the threat and the risk of the individual vehicles. After a great deal of discussion with our colleagues from the House of Commons and the Senate, we felt there was minimal risk, less risk, from employees of the House of Commons, MPs, and senators who have legitimate business on the Hill and have the care and control of their vehicles, rather than vehicles that do not normally have legitimate business on the Hill.

    So the reason is to facilitate your access, because in our view the threat and risk are quite a bit lower for those who have normal activities on the Hill.

    Mr. Dale Johnston: Can you tell me when that changed? When did that change? It's just been in the last few days that I've heard of that.

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: It started, actually, last week. It commenced two weeks ago Wednesday. We were looking at what we were doing, the resources we had, the value of different kinds of verifications, and we felt at that time... It took several days to discuss with our partners in the House of Commons and the Senate to make sure everybody was in agreement. It was implemented starting last week, last Thursday or Friday.

    The Chair: I think, Dale, we should move on, because I am concerned about the people down there. Is it a one-word answer?

    Mr. Dale Johnston: Yes, it is.

    The Chair: It's a one-word answer.

    Mr. Dale Johnston: Yes. We're talking about people with legitimate business on the Hill, senators, MPs, and their staff.

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: Yes, that's correct, sir.

    The Chair: Joe Jordan and then Pierre Brien.

    Mr. Joe Jordan (Leeds--Grenville, Lib.): MPs are real experts on this, because we ride by it every day. We've seen it evolve.

    Is it safe to say that the facility we're going to see is just a fact of life now? It's not going to be ramped down. The days of cars just driving up are over. We're now dealing with that as a permanent entity. From this point forward, the decision is that vehicles will be checked. For the foreseeable future, that's not going to change, is it?

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: Mr. Chair, the action we take on Parliament Hill is dependent upon the threat and the risk assessment. We constantly review this as we get new information. If there was any reason to reduce it, then we would not require that facility there.

    I wouldn't call it permanent. There will be nobody happier than ourselves when we feel we can justifiably take it away. But it is the threat and the risk assessment that we have to be guided by.

Á  (1125)  

    Mr. Joe Jordan: Is any thought being given to different technologies that may be able to expedite that process?

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: Very much so. I was going to mention those, but in the interest of time—

    The Chair: Colleagues, I assure you we'll have members of the RCMP travelling with us on the expedition and members of the RCMP down there. I realize it won't be on the record, but we'll have simultaneous translation there, followed by questions.

    Also, I have to say--and General Cloutier and I discussed this last time--I'll be recommending to the steering committee that we have at least one more meeting on security.

    I hate to cut things off, but I think we should vote.

    Pierre Brien, then Yvon Godin and Rick Borotsik.

[Translation]

    Mr. Pierre Brien (Témiscamingue, BQ): I've taken note of your comment that all 15 regular members of the Parliament Hill detachment are fluently bilingual, because I've received many complaints in recent weeks concerning bilingualism. I just thought you should know that.

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: That's correct. The 15 regular members assigned to the Parliament Hill detachment are fluently bilingual.

    Mr. Pierre Brien: Perhaps there won't be time to discuss this today, but I do have a concern. I agree that vehicular traffic is tightly controlled. However, just between you and me, although I'm not an explosives expert, if I wanted to do something, I would use a pedestrian, not a vehicle. Pedestrian access to the Hill is not controlled.

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: That's one of the reasons why we have limited our responsibilities with respect to vehicular traffic. We prefer to focus our resources on monitoring pedestrians, as you mentioned.

[English]

    The Chair: Yvon Godin.

[Translation]

    Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie--Bathurst, NDP): First of all, Mr. Chairman, I know that we will be going on an expedition of sorts. It was my understanding that we would then be coming back here and that we could ask the witness some additional questions, for the record. That's important, because I do have a number of questions that I would like to ask.

    The Chair: That's going to be difficult, Yvon. The tour will take at least one hour. We'll certainly hold a full meeting to follow up on this matter.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Fine, but I would like to state something for the record before we head out.

    Regarding the bilingual capability of RCMP members, you stated that it was difficult to find bilingual officers because you had to bring in resources from around the country. That explains in part why these members are English-speaking, if I understand correctly.

    I recall that at the Francophone Summit in Moncton, bilingual members had been brought from across the country. They included francophones and anglophones alike. It's unacceptable, in my view, to encounter this kind of situation here on Parliament Hill in Ottawa, especially since the government represents an official bilingual country. It's totally unacceptable and I don't buy your reasons at all. There is no justification whatsoever for this state of affairs.

    Secondly, a different approach could have been taken. The contact person during a shift should ensure that at least one officer is capable of speaking both languages. We've received complaints that some teams of officers spoke no French at all. The contact person who deals with drivers and the public should be bilingual. Otherwise, francophones cannot understand what that person is saying. It's unacceptable and I would like you to revise this policy immediately.

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: I don't dispute what you are saying. It's very important to us to provide services in both official languages. However, when I received the authorization to find 50 RCMP members from around the country, a number hailed from New Brunswick and were bilingual. However, the majority of those available for a few months' duty were from Western Canada.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't want the committee to think that this is my sole concern in so far as security on the Hill is concerned. There are a number of other very important issues to address and I think the committee needs to pursue the matter further and ask more questions.

    The Chair: I agree, Yvon. We have questions concerning vehicular traffic and we'll certainly be meeting again to discuss this matter.

    Rick Borotsik.

[English]

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: You alluded to it, and I think Mr. Brien mentioned it, with respect to pedestrians. You mentioned “when possible” in your dissertation. Is there a standing order that your officers have?

    As a second question, is the pedestrian traffic that's coming through the responsibility of the House of Commons security more than of the RCMP?

Á  (1130)  

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: Mr. Chair, there is no standing order. Our people are to use their discretion, their judgment, as to whom they will challenge and at which time.

    The responsibility on Parliament Hill is the RCMP's. Inside the buildings, it's the responsibility of the House of Commons.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: The pedestrian traffic coming inside would, then, be the House of Commons’, in that “no man’s land”?

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: That's correct.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: There are no standing orders? You don't have any specifics that you deal with--?

    A/Commr Dawson Hovey: Our people are aware of the threat and the risk assessment and they do regularly check pedestrians carrying backpacks and what not. We are not able to check everybody on the Hill, but they regularly do that.

    Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay, thank you.

    The Chair: Just to remind you, we will have translators with us on the buses, and down there for members who need simultaneous translation. We will be able to question members of the RCMP who will be travelling with us, and the others whom we will see down there.

    I want to thank the assistant commissioner for being here. He had a particularly difficult morning. He has a particularly difficult day. Thank you very much for being here.

    I want to thank now, formally, although they will not be leaving us, Chief Superintendent Line Carbonneau--thank you, Chief Superintendent--and Superintendent Roger Brown. We thank you for being here.

    We want to thank General Cloutier and Michel Thievierge for being here again. And General, as I mentioned, it is my sense that the members want another meeting. I know that in your mind you're comfortable with that. We thank you all for being here.

    Colleagues, this meeting is adjourned. The steering committee meets in this room at 11 o'clock Thursday. We meet again next Tuesday at 11 o'clock. We proceed on the expedition. The meeting is adjourned.