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Minutes of Proceedings

44th Parliament, 1st Session
Meeting 87
Tuesday, May 2, 2023, 11:04 a.m. to Tuesday, May 16, 2023, 4:24 p.m.
Televised
Presiding
Peter Fonseca, Chair (Liberal)

• Dan Albas for Marty Morantz (Conservative)
• Sean Casey for Heath MacDonald (Liberal)
• Serge Cormier for Heath MacDonald (Liberal)
• Serge Cormier for Julie Dzerowicz (Liberal)
• Marc Dalton for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Eric Duncan for Marty Morantz (Conservative)
• Hon. Ed Fast for Adam Chambers (Conservative)
• Michelle Ferreri for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Hon. Kerry-Lynne D. Findlay for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Darren Fisher for Julie Dzerowicz (Liberal)
• Peter Fragiskatos for Sophie Chatel (Liberal)
• Cheryl Gallant for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Garnett Genuis for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Damien C. Kurek for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Damien C. Kurek for Adam Chambers (Conservative)
• Damien C. Kurek for Philip Lawrence (Conservative)
• Chris Lewis for Marty Morantz (Conservative)
• Larry Maguire for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Rick Perkins for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Rick Perkins for Adam Chambers (Conservative)
• Terry Sheehan for Julie Dzerowicz (Liberal)
• Mario Simard for Gabriel Ste-Marie (Bloc Québécois)
• Arnold Viersen for Jasraj Singh Hallan (Conservative)
• Brad Vis for Marty Morantz (Conservative)
Library of Parliament
• Brett Capwell, Analyst
• Michaël Lambert-Racine, Analyst
• Joëlle Malo, Analyst
• Hon. Chrystia Freeland, P.C., M.P., Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance
Canada Border Services Agency
• Graeme Hamilton, Director General, Traveller, Commercial and Trade Policy
• Andrew Lawrence, Director General, Travellers Transformation
Department of Citizenship and Immigration
• Salena Brickey, Director, Strategic Planning, Reporting and Risk
• David Chan, Acting Director, Asylum Policy, Performance and Governance Division
• Peter Christensen, Assistant Director, Social and Discretionary Policy and Programs
• Nicole Girard, Director General, Citizenship Policy
• Michelle Mascoll, Director General, Resettlement Policy Branch
Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
• Tom Isaac, Senior Counsel, Negotiations and Northern Affairs Section
• Alain Therriault, Manager, Policy and Governance
Department of Employment and Social Development
• Angelina Barrados, Executive Director, Employment Insurance Strategic Policy, Skills and Employment Branch
• Neil Burron, Manager, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Labour Program
• Stéphanie Brodeur, Acting Director, Policy and Partnerships Division, Integrity Services Branch, Service Canada
• Benoit Cadieux, Director, Policy Analysis and Initiatives, Skills and Employment Branch
• Steven Coté, Executive Director, Employment Insurance, Skills and Employment Branch
• Mona El Bahar, Acting Director General, Individual Payments and On-Demand Services, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Service Canada
• Deanne Field, Executive Director, Employment Insurance Operational Policy and Appeals, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Service Canada
• Robert Lalonde, Director, Individual Payments and On-Demand Services, Benefits and Integrated Services Branch, Service Canada
• Neal LeBlanc, Director, Canada Pension Plan Policy and Legislation, Income Security and Social Development Branch
• Anamika Mona Nandy, Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch
Department of Finance
• Julien Brazeau, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister
• Miodrag Jovanovic, Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch
• Nick Leswick, Associate Deputy Minister
Department of Fisheries and Oceans
• Robert Brooks, Director, Marine Environmental and Hazards Response
Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
• Blair Brimmell, Head of Section, Climate and Security, Security and Defence Relations
• Marie-Josée Langlois, Director General, Strategic Policy Branch
Department of Health
• David K. Lee, Chief Regulatory Officer, Health Products and Food Branch
• Natalie Page, Director General, Natural and Non-Prescription Health Products Directorate
• Ali Ahmed Raouf, Manager, Strategic Policy Division, Consumer and Hazardous Products Safety Directorate
• Lindy VanAmburg, Director General, Policy and Programs, Dental Care Task Force
• Luisa Wang, Director, Strategic Policy Division, Consumer and Hazardous Products Safety Directorate
Department of Industry
• Erin Campbell, Director, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Patent Policy Directorate
• Samir Chhabra, Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch
Department of Public Works and Government Services
• Eugene Gourevitch, Director, Performance and Impact Analysis
Department of the Environment
• Laura Farquharson, Director General, Legislative and Regulatory Affairs, Environmental Protection Branch
• Paola Mellow, Executive Director, Low Carbon Fuels Division
Department of Transport
• Amélie Clément, Director, Multimodal Transportation Performance and Capacity Analysis, Economic Analysis and Reseach
• Christian Dea, Director General, Transportation and Economic Analysis and Chief Economist
• Jeffrey Johnson, Manager and Senior Policy Advisor, Environmental Policy
• Fabien Lefebvre, Acting Executive Director, Oceans Protection Plan Operations
• Jennifer Little, Director General, Oceans Protection Plan Engagement and Policy Development
• Julie Mah, Manager and Senior Policy Advisor, Oceans Protection Plan
• Joanna Manger, Director General, Marine Safety and Security
• François Marier, Director, International Marine Policy
• Vincent Millette, Director, National Air Services Policy
• Tamara Rudge, Director General, Surface Transportation Policy
• Colin Stacey, Director General, Air Policy
National Research Council of Canada
• Marcel Turcot, Director General, Policy, Strategy and Performance
Privy Council Office
• Joël Girouard, Senior Privy Council Officer, Machinery of Government
• Rachel Pereira, Director, Democratic Institutions
Treasury Board Secretariat
• Nicole Thomas, Executive Director, Costing, Charging and Transfer Payments
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, April 20, 2023, the committee resumed its study of subject matter of Bill C‑47, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 28, 2023.

Graeme Hamilton made a statement and, with witnesses, answered questions.

Motion

Terry Beech moved, — That the committee continue its pre-study of Bill C-47, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 28, by:

  1. Inviting witnesses to appear on the contents of Bill C-47 during meetings scheduled the weeks of May 1, May 8, and May 15 2023, and that;

    Members of the committee submit their prioritized witness lists for the study of Bill C-47 to the clerk of the committee by no later than Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023, at 12 p.m., and that these lists be distributed to members of the committee as soon as possible;

  2. Moving to clause-by-clause review of Bill C-47 no later than Thursday, May 25 2023 at 11:00 AM, provided that the bill is referred to the committee on or before Thursday, May 18, 2023, and that;

    i. amendments be submitted to the clerk of the committee in both official languages no later than 4:00 p.m. on Friday, May 19, 2023;

    ii. the clerk of the committee write immediately to each member who is not a member of a caucus represented on the committee and any independent members to inform them of the study of Bill C-47 by the committee and to invite them to prepare and submit any proposed amendments to Bill C-47 which they would suggest that the committee consider during the clause-by-clause study of the Bill;

  3. If Bill C-47 is referred to the committee by the House during the subject matter study of the Bill, all witness testimony, evidence and documentation received in public in relation to its subject matter study of Bill C-47 be deemed received by the committee in the context of its legislative study of Bill C-47;
  4. Subject to the approval of the recognized parties’ whips, and the availability of meeting slots from the House of Commons, the committee hold as many additional meetings as possible with the goal of accomplishing at least 20 hours of study prior to the beginning of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill;
  5. That the Chair of the Committee write, as promptly as possible, to the Chairs of the following standing committees to invite them to study the subject matter of the following provisions of Bill C-47, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 28, 2023:

    i. the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, Part 3, Division 2 and Part 4, divisions 21, 22 23 and 24 of the Bill;

    ii. the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, Part 4, divisions 13, 14, 15, 35 and 38 of the Bill;

    iii. the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, Part 4, divisions 16, 17, 18 and 19 of the Bill;

    iv. the Standing Committee on Health, Part 4, divisions 27, 28 and 29 of the Bill;

    v. the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology, Part 4, divisions 7, 25 and 26 of the Bill;

    vi. the Standing Committee on National Defence, Part 4, Division 11 of the Bill;

    vii. the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, Part 4, Division 12 of the Bill;

    viii. the Standing Committee on Natural Resources, Part 4, Division 20 of the Bill;

    ix. the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology Part 4, Division 32 of the Bill;

    x. Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development Part 4, Division 36 of the Bill;

    xi. Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs Part 4, divisions 31 and 39 of the Bill;

    xii. Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs Part 1, (E) of the Bill; and;

    xiii. Standing Committee on International Trade, Part 4, divisions 4 and 5 of the Bill;

    And that, for the standing committees listed in (e);

  6. recommendations in relation to the provisions considered by them be provided in the form of a letter to the Chair of the Standing Committee on Finance, in both official languages, no later than 12:00 p.m. on Thursday May 18, 2023; and;
  7. if a standing committee listed in (e) chooses not to consider the subject matter of the provisions, it advise the Chair of the committee by letter, in both official languages, no later than 4:00 p.m. on Friday, May 12, 2023.

    Debate arose thereon.

    On motion of Philip Lawrence, it was agreed, — That the committee continue to question witnesses.

    Questioning of the witnesses resumed.

    The debate resumed on the motion of Terry Beech.

    At 2:02 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 3:53 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate resumed on the motion of Terry Beech.

    Amendment

    Daniel Blaikie moved, — That the motion be amended by adding after the words “Friday, May 12, 2023” the following: “h. That the Minister of Finance be invited to appear for two hours on the bill and that this appearance be scheduled on or before May 18th, 2023”.

    Debate arose thereon.

    At 4:58 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 5:15 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate continued.

    Subamendment

    Garnett Genuis moved, — That the amendement be amended by adding after the words "Minister of Finance" the following words "and Minister of Public Safety"; by adding after the words "be invited to" the following word "each"; by adding after the word "appear" the following word "separately"; by replacing the words "this appearance" by the words "these appearances", and by adding after the word "2023" with the following "and that notwithstanding the proposed date, clause by clause not be schedule unless both of these Ministers have each appeard for two hours".

    At 6:16 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 6:25 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate continued.

    At 6:46 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 11:03 a.m., Thursday, May 4, 2023, the sitting resumed.

    The debate continued on the sub-amendment of Garnett Genuis.

    The question was put on the subamendment of Garnett Genuis and it was negatived on the following recorded division:

    YEAS: Adam Chambers, Jasraj Singh Hallan, Philip Lawrence, Marty Morantz — 4;

    NAYS: Yvan Baker, Terry Beech, Daniel Blaikie, Sophie Chatel, Serge Cormier, Julie Dzerowicz, Mario Simard — 7.

    Subamendment

    Philip Lawrence moved, — That the motion be amended by adding after the words “study of the Bill” in section (b) (i) the following paragraph: “iii. the Minister appear before the committee for two hours”.

    RULING BY THE CHAIR

    The chair rules that the subamendment is out of order because the committee has already ruled on the matter.
    Subamendment

    Philip Lawrence moved, — That the amendment be amended by adding after the words “before May 18, 2023” the following: “and clause by clause shall not began until the minister of Finance appears for tow hours”.

    At 12:32 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 12:38 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    RULING BY THE CHAIR

    The Chair ruled the proposed sub-amendment inadmissible as is not substantially different from the sub-amendment that was already voted and defeated.

    Whereupon, Philip Lawrence appealed the decision of the Chair.

    The question: "Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?" was put and the decision was sustained on the following recorded division:

    YEAS: Yvan Baker, Terry Beech, Daniel Blaikie, Sophie Chatel, Serge Cormier, Julie Dzerowicz — 6;

    NAYS: Adam Chambers, Jasraj Singh Hallan, Philip Lawrence, Marty Morantz, Gabriel Ste-Marie — 5.

    At 1:44 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 3:49 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The committee resumed consideration of the amendment of Daniel Blaikie moved on Tuesday, May 2, 2023 which read as follows:

    h. That the Minister of Finance be invited to appear for two hours on the bill and that this appearance be scheduled on or before May 18th, 2023.

    At 6:13 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 6:28 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate resumed on the amendment of Daniel Blaikie.

    Motion

    Rick Perkins moved, — That the committee do now adjourn.

    The question was put on the motion and it was negatived on the following recorded division:

    YEAS: Eric Duncan, Gabriel Ste-Marie — 2;

    NAYS: Yvan Baker, Terry Beech, Daniel Blaikie, Sophie Chatel, Julie Dzerowicz, Kerry-Lynne D. Findlay, Philip Lawrence, Heath MacDonald, Rick Perkins — 9.

    The debate resumed on the amendment of Daniel Blaikie.

    Motion

    Rick Perkins moved, — That the committee do now adjourn.

    The question was put on the motion and it was negatived on the following recorded division:

    YEAS: Eric Duncan, Kerry-Lynne D. Findlay, Philip Lawrence, Rick Perkins, Gabriel Ste-Marie — 5;

    NAYS: Yvan Baker, Terry Beech, Daniel Blaikie, Julie Dzerowicz, Peter Fragiskatos, Heath MacDonald — 6.

    The debate resumed on the amendment of Daniel Blaikie.

    At 8:38 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 11:05 a.m., Tuesday, May 9, 2023, the sitting resumed.

    The committee resumed consideration of the motion of Terry Beech and the amendment of Daniel Blaikie moved on Tuesday, May 2, 2023.

    Subamendment

    Marty Morantz moved, — That the amendment be amended by replacing the words “and that this appearance be scheduled on or before May 18th, 2023.” after the words "on the bill" with the following: on or before May 18th, 2023 provided that, if the Minister of Finance has not appeared by May 18, 2023 amendments to Bill C-47, notwithstanding subparagraph (b)(i), be submitted to the clerk in both official languages no later than 11:00 a.m. ET the business day following the Minister appearing at Finance committee for a duration of no less than 2 hours.

    Debate arose thereon.

    At 11:16 a.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 11:30 a.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate continued.

    At 1:19 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 4:14 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate resumed on the sub-amendment of Marty Morantz.

    Motion

    Rick Perkins moved, — That the committee do now adjourn.

    The question was put on the motion and it was negatived on the following recorded division:

    YEAS: Adam Chambers, Damien C. Kurek, Marty Morantz, Rick Perkins — 4;

    NAYS: Yvan Baker, Terry Beech, Daniel Blaikie, Sophie Chatel, Julie Dzerowicz, Heath MacDonald, Gabriel Ste-Marie — 7.

    At 4:43 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 115(5), it was agreed that the committee continue to sit.

    At 4:54 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 5:30 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate resumed on the subamendment of Marty Morantz.

    At 6:00 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 6:59 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate resumed on the subamendment of Marty Morantz.

    At 8:03 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 9:07 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    The debate resumed on the subamendment of Marty Morantz.

    At 9:59 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 11:04 a.m., Thursday, May 11, 2023, the sitting resumed.

    The debate resumed on the subamendment of Marty Morantz.

    Yvan Baker gave notice of the following motion:

    That the motion be amended by adding after section (b)(ii): “iii. if the Committee has not completed the clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill by 4:30 PM on Friday, May 26th, 2023 all remaining amendments submitted to the Committee shall be deemed moved, the Chair shall put the question, forthwith and successively, without further debate on all remaining clauses and proposed amendments, as well as each and every question necessary to dispose of clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill, as well as all questions necessary to report the Bill to the House and to order the Chair to report the Bill to the House as soon as possible;”

    At 1:14 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 11:00 a.m., Tuesday, May 16, 2023, the sitting resumed.

    The committee proceeded to the consideration of matters related to committee business.

    By unanimous consent, it was agreed, — That, in relation to the study of understanding the 21st century world economy, the proposed budget in the amount of $188,081.93, for the committee’s travel to Paris, France in Summer ‑ Fall 2023, be adopted.

    By unanimous consent, it was agreed, — That, in relation to the study of pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2024 budget, the proposed budget in the amount of $112,529.84, for the committee’s travel to Fredericton, NB, Charlottetown, PE, Halifax, NS, St. John’s, NL in Fall 2023, be adopted.

    By unanimous consent, it was agreed, — That, in relation to the study of pre-budget consultations in advance of the 2024 budget, the proposed budget in the amount of $164,934.24, for the committee’s travel to Québec, QC, Toronto, ON, Winnipeg, MB, Edmonton, AB, Vancouver, BC in Fall 2023, be adopted.

    On motion of Terry Beech, it was agreed, — That, the committee suspend until the appearance of the minister and resumes debate on the subamendement afterwards, and that no other motion can be moved during that time.

    At 11:15 a.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 12:05 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, May 2, 2023, the committee resumed consideration of Bill C-47, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on March 28, 2023.

    The Minister made a statement and answered questions.

    At 1:39 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

    At 3:52 p.m., the sitting resumed.

    On motion of Terry Beech, it was agreed on division, — That the motion be adopted as amended by Terry Beech and that the committee consider both the sub-amendment from Marty Morantz and the amendment from Daniel Blaikie withdrawn.

    The motion, as amended, read as follows:

    That the committee continue its pre-study of Bill C-47, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on Tuesday, March 28, 2023 by:

    1. Inviting witnesses to appear on the contents of Bill C-47 during meetings scheduled the weeks of May 1, May 8, and May 15, 2023, and that;

      Members of the committee submit their prioritized witness lists for the study of Bill C-47 to the clerk of the committee by no later than Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023, at 12:00 p.m., and that these lists be distributed to members of the committee as soon as possible;

    2. Moving to clause-by-clause review of Bill C-47 no later than Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 11:00 a.m., provided that the bill is referred to the committee on or before Thursday, May 18, 2023, and that;

      i. amendments be submitted to the clerk of the committee in both official languages no later than noon on Friday, May 19, 2023;

      ii. the clerk of the committee write immediately to each member who is not a member of a caucus represented on the committee and any independent members to inform them of the study of Bill C-47 by the committee and to invite them to prepare and submit any proposed amendments to Bill C-47 which they would suggest that the committee consider during the clause-by-clause study of the Bill;

      iii. if the Committee has not completed the clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill by 4:30 p.m. on Monday, May 29th, 2023, all remaining amendments submitted to the Committee shall be deemed moved, the Chair shall put the question, forthwith and successively, without further debate on all remaining clauses and proposed amendments, as well as each and every question necessary to dispose of clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill, as well as all questions necessary to report the Bill to the House and to order the Chair to report the Bill to the House as soon as possible;

    3. If Bill C-47 is referred to the committee by the House during the subject matter study of the Bill, all witness testimony, evidence and documentation received in public in relation to its subject matter study of Bill C-47 be deemed received by the committee in the context of its legislative study of Bill C-47;
    4. Subject to the approval of the recognized parties’ whips, and the availability of meeting slots from the House of Commons, the committee hold as many additional meetings as possible with the goal of accomplishing at least 20 hours of study prior to the beginning of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill;
    5. and that the whips of the recognized parties, and the clerks, be empowered to seek as many meetings as possible, with the goal of meeting for 10 hours before the end of this week.

    At 4:24 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.



    Alexandre Roger,
    Alexandre (Sacha) Vassiliev
    Clerks of the committee