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37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, February 26, 2002

1535

The Chair (Mr. David Pratt (Nepean--Carleton, Lib.))

Brigadier-General J.J.R. Gagnon (Commandant, Canadian Forces College, Department of National Defence)

1540

1545

1550

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell (Director of Academics, Canadian Forces College)

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Rob Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Anders

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

1555

Mr. Rob Anders

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

Mr. Rob Anders

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

Mr. Rob Anders

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

Mr. Rob Anders

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Rob Anders

The Chair

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

1600

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

1605

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

The Chair

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Bob Wood

1610

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Bob Wood

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Bob Wood

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Bob Wood

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Wood

The Chair

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC/DR)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

1615

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

1620

The Chair

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

1625

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

Mr. Rob Anders

1630

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

Mr. Rob Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

1635

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay--Atikokan, Lib.)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Stan Dromisky

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

1640

Mr. Stan Dromisky

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

Mr. Stan Dromisky

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

1645

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Rob Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Rob Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Mr. Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

1650

Mr. Rob Anders

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton--Victoria--Brock, Lib.)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

1655

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton--Victoria--Brock, Lib.)

The Chair

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

M. Claude Bachand

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

1700

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

1705

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

The Chair

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

1710

The Chair

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon

The Chair

Dr. P.T. Mitchell

The Chair

CANADA

Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

NUMBER 044

1st SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

Tuesday, February 26, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1535)

[English]

The Chair (Mr. David Pratt (Nepean--Carleton, Lib.)): I'd like to call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs.

We are pleased, in connection with our study of operational readiness, to have with us today Brigadier General J.J.R. Gagnon, Commandant of the Canadian Forces College, and Professor P.T. Mitchell, Director of Academics, Canadian Forces College.

Gentlemen, welcome to the SCONDVA committee, as it is affectionately known. We are pleased to have you here. On behalf of all of the members of the committee, I'd like to extend a very warm welcome to you. We're very much looking forward to getting your comments today, so I will give the floor to whichever of you is most anxious to speak first.

[Translation]

Brigadier-General J.J.R. Gagnon (Commandant, Canadian Forces College, Department of National Defence): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and distinguished members of SCONDVA.

First of all, it gives me great pleasure to be with you this afternoon to speak about the Canadian Forces College and its relevance to the development and the operational preparation of the officer corps.

Even though I am offering you my remarks in French, I have to tell you that the notes from which I am going to speak are written in English. So, I am going to offer you my comments in English.

English

I should say that along with me this afternoon is Dr. Paul Mitchell. Paul is my director of academics within the college.

If you'll allow me, Mr. Chair, the first thing I would like to do is describe very briefly what the Canadian Forces College is. In fact, it is a unique institution of its kind within the Canadian Forces. Our mandate is to provide professional military education to senior officers. When I talk about professional military education, it is in fact the body of knowledge that is specific to military art and to military operations, ranging from crisis management to war fighting.

Our program at the college includes six courses accessible to both regular and reserve senior officers. In fact, we have two families of courses. One of them is a staff college level course, which is meant for officers at midpoint in their careers. That's a family of courses. The other one is a war college level course, which is meant for officers about to be promoted to general officers.

You may know that within the NATO community we were the first college to be unified and to provide joint professional military education--joint meaning the three services together. In fact, within NATO and within the ABCA framework, our college has been the example that has been followed by other nations, including most recently the U.K. college.

Our curriculum is based on the officer general specification. I should add, though, that our curriculum is also influenced by deductions we draw from the security environment. It is influenced also by evolving doctrine and by mandated defence policy. The quality of our curriculum is acknowledged by Canadian universities and by the armed forces of our allies. In essence, I would add that the quality of our curriculum is for me the centre of gravity for our college. So this is what the college is about.

Let me say a word about our role, Mr. Chair. Our role is to develop selected officers through staff and war college level courses and to contribute to their professional development through seminars and publications produced by the Centre for National Security Studies. That centre is a component of our college. That's the role.

The key words in our role are “selected officers”. This means that our students are selected for their potential to continue to grow in rank. In other words, they are the future generals of the Canadian Forces. Stated otherwise, our staff college level course is the foundation for unit command--those who will be commanding officers of battalions, ships, and air squadrons. This is the staff college level course. The war college level course is the foundation for command at brigade and divisional level and maritime task group level. It's also the foundation for senior executive responsibilities at the strategic level.

As you can see, we have two families of courses--the midpoint and the senior one. To situate our college in relation with the officer professional development system, I would say that out of the four professional development periods, the college is the centre of excellence for both development period three and period four.

Let me now give you a flavour of our courses with more details. First I will talk about the midpoint courses. These are the development period three courses. We have two of them. One is for regular officers and it is the command and staff course. Its aim is to develop senior officers for key tactical command and operational level staff appointments either in national or multinational joint forces. That one is a ten-month program with emphasis on command, leadership, operations across the spectrum of conflict, operational art, and staff skills. That course is running now, and I have 93 students in-house.

The second one in the DP-3 window is the joint reserve command and staff course. In reality, it is the corresponding course for the specific requirement of the reserve component. That one includes a 60-hour distance delivery module and a two-week residency phase conducted in-house, normally in the summertime. I would add that in development period three, both regular and reserve courses are joint and include an international participation. So that's development period three.

In development period four, the college provides two courses for the more senior officers. One of these courses is a war fighting one and the other one is a strategic one.

The war fighting one is the advanced military studies course, and really it is designed to prepare colonels and naval captains for senior command and staff appointment at the operational level in national and international headquarters. That course, since it is a war fighting course, concentrates on planning and executing deployed operations. To do this, it has to cover theories of conflict, campaign planning, component warfare, issues of use of force, command, leadership and ethics, and also technology. So that's the war fighting one.

The strategic one is called the national security studies course, and the aim is to prepare generals and flag officers and selected colonels and naval captains for strategic leadership responsibilities in the development, direction, and management of national security and defence policy. So really the focus is at the strategic level, and it dwells on security and defence policy, command and leadership, personnel and resource management, and technology.

Those are both courses for those officers about to be generals. The war fighting one is 15 weeks, and the strategic one is 6 months long.

Let me now say a word on the international contacts into which the college operates. Currently our mid-point course includes 16 international students representing 10 foreign countries. The senior one, the national security studies course, currently includes two foreign students representing two countries. The international footprint includes some permanent bilateral exchanges and some non-permanent participation. It includes some NATO countries, it includes some partnership for peace countries, and it includes others as well.

I should point out, under the international footprint, that six members of my staff are foreign officers. So in essence, the international presence provides us with a diversity of perspectives that greatly benefits the officer core, our students.

Another dimension of our international linkage stems from our active participation in the NATO Conference of Commandants, the commandants of the staff college and the war college, which I am part of. This is a standing forum that has existed for more than 30 years. For me, it is the only reference point for benchmarking of course content and delivery, being the only institution of our kind in Canada. That forum is also a fruitful place for me to share ideas and to embark on bilateral projects of mutual benefits, and we do so from time to time. That forum includes some permanent working groups in which we participate selectively.

In my opening remarks, I mentioned that the college's centre of gravity is the quality of our curriculum. We are currently developing a comprehensive evaluation and validation system. I will create a new department within the college as of this coming summer in order to provide me with the right evaluation and validation tools.

I believe we are leading the way within NATO, and some of our allies are closely monitoring our work. I am confident that by next year, in fact we will be the leading college within NATO under evaluation and validation.

¹ (1540)

I also mention in my opening remarks the acknowledgement of our programs by some Canadian universities. I am very proud to mention that our year-long program has just been accredited. Indeed, the Ontario Council on Graduate Studies has found the intellectual rigour of our program to be at the master's degree level in a one-for-one concept, which is a concept that does not require top-up courses at the end of the professional military study year.

Along with that accomplishment, our doctorate-level academic staff will be increased from two to four as of this spring. We also maintain a strong association with the Royal Military College and other universities, mostly from across Canada, but also from the United States and Europe.

Each year, we rely on approximately 200 guest speakers, who complement the expertise not resident within the college. In fact, yesterday my guest speaker was Ambassador Paul Cellucci. Some of our guest lecturers are renowned academics and some are renowned practitioners, and I can say they greatly contribute to the quality of our program.

To support the intellectual dimension of our program, the college possesses a world-class library. In fact, our library is web-based, with access to a host of online systems and inter-library loans throughout North America. We are accessed daily by renowned military and civilian institutions from the United States and Europe, and the feedback flow leaves no doubt in my mind that we own a jewel that is unique in itself. In fact, our library has been rated as the best of its kind by The Wall Street Journal.

Our most recent infrastructure development, which is about to be completed, includes expanding that library we're so proud of, as well as setting up an exercise and simulation centre. Our students have access to our library from their quarters in the college, or from distance locations. So we have embarked into the technology era.

Before concluding, I would like to give you a flavour of my vision of the future as a college, in a few bullets.

First, we would like to improve the Canadian field study trip. We have several trips in our program, and one of them is the Canadian field study trip. I would like to improve it to provide our students with a better perspective on diverse regions of Canada, including the far north. I am quite confident this will happen.

Another project is the expansion of the strategic studies course, for senior colonels who are about to be generals, from a six-month course to a year-long course. In doing so we will include more content on the Asia-Pacific region and add depth to other content, while improving the pace of learning.

We are also seeking to include senior civil servants in the strategic security studies course, in order to create the learning situation with the appropriate contribution of all those who formulate plans at the national strategic level. So I have exchanged correspondence on that, to get senior policy-makers and decision-makers from other departments.

We have plans under way to consider expanding the throughput, to provide staff education to more officers in the development period three, which is the mid-point career officer. We feel the throughput is somewhat limited now, so we have staffed that project to augment it.

We want to have more distance delivery, so we're developing some opportunities with the Royal Military College in Kingston, and hope to deliver more of our programs online. As I said, the reserve force is currently the only one that has a portion online, but we believe we could and should expand.

Another initiative under way is to bridge our research capability within the college with DND and CF requirements. I believe a lot of great opportunities are there waiting for us to tap.

¹ (1545)

In the same vein, our Centre for National Strategic Studies, a component of our college, should be more developed into a centre of excellence to contribute greatly to the body of knowledge on strategic studies.

In conclusion, I would say that our staff college level course is the foundation for unit command, and I am convinced that the test is conclusive, day after day, in Bosnia, in Afghanistan, in the Arabian Sea, and elsewhere around the world. I am convinced that our unit commanding officers can be compared with any allied equivalent. I am convinced that they are at par with, if not better than, any of their NATO counterparts.

I would offer as evidence the fact that some of our principal allies only recognize a few foreign colleges for the development of their officers, our college being one of them. I would also offer as evidence the fact that our allies have sufficient confidence in our education system that they are wiling to place their units under the operational command of Canadian commanders.

In closing, I would say that I am very proud of our college. It's a jewel in terms of professional military education. And perhaps I could quote--and I receive a lot of similar feedback--a United States officer, who said the course he followed in Toronto is a “world-class professional development course”. And he added, “The U.S. Army would be well served to endorse and support future participation with that college”.

I hope these remarks have been useful for you. Thank you very much.

¹ (1550)

The Chair: Thank you very much, General.

Professor Mitchell, do you have any comments you'd like to make?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell (Director of Academics, Canadian Forces College): No. I'm here to support the General's comments and stand ready to answer any questions posed to me.

The Chair: That's great, thank you.

Now it's Mr. Anders on the seven-minute round.

Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Canadian Alliance): Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

You mentioned that there are ten foreign countries with officers in training who are part of our college. Which countries are those?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Some of them are countries with whom we have standing exchanges--the U.K., France, Germany, and Australia. Then we have students from Korea, one from Singapore, the Netherlands, the Barbados, Argentina, as well as Bulgaria.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay, thank you, General.

When you say “Korea”, I take it you mean South Korea.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Yes, of course.

Mr. Rob Anders: All right. Sometimes we provide winter warfare training to the Chinese, we hear, so I'm checking. Okay.

Would it not make more sense to collocate your college at another educational facility, such as the RMC in Kingston? This is just a kind of informational question.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: This issue has been considered many times in the past. What is unique about our college is the war fighting expertise we own. This is provided by serving officers who have had experience in command positions, experience in deployed operations, and so on. This could be done anywhere in any location, I suppose.

But having said this, over the years the college has invested in its infrastructure in Toronto, where we sit right now. Over the years we have ended up with a jewel in itself, and we have the luxury of being situated by an international airport, which is a vital asset for me. I should say that to deliver our program I rely on 200 guest speakers a year, and quite frankly, being beside an international airport gives us access to some very busy speakers who otherwise wouldn't be available.

So to replicate the infrastructure we have would be very costly, and I don't think the payback would be in the short term.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay.

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: If I can just add something here, I think you may be operating under a misinterpretation of what the role of our college is too, because in your initial questions you mentioned “officers under training”. The Canadian Forces College mission is fundamentally different from that of the Royal Military College.

¹ (1555)

Mr. Rob Anders: I had better clarify that. Because you're dealing with foreign officers, I wasn't exactly sure what their rank or situation was.

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: The foreign officers come in with exactly the same sorts of specifications and qualifications the Canadian officers do.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay.

Dr. Mitchell, I understand you're an expert on naval policy and strategy. In that regard, my understanding is that we sent over six ships to the Indian Ocean; we're slipping down to five. How long would you say that the present task group in the Indian Ocean can be sustained at that level of five or six ships?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: I'm afraid that is a question that's completely outside of my area of expertise. I would not be able to offer you any sort of informed comment on that question. Sorry.

Mr. Rob Anders: Okay. I'm going to try another one, and that is, would you say that the lack of more than two support ships is one of the most serious shortcomings in our naval capability?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: I would say that the navy is going to be very hampered in its ability to project force overseas if it is not able to replace the AORs in a timely fashion in the next few years.

Furthermore, I would also offer that having only two AORs means that occasionally, when one of them goes into refit, one of the coasts goes without the support of an AOR and, again, is hampered in its ability to maintain forces for a long duration at sea. Yes, I would agree in those senses.

Mr. Rob Anders: See, that was truthful and diplomatic and it didn't hurt.

The Chair: I would like to remind members of the committee, however, that the witnesses are here today to talk about the educational component of operational readiness, I think.

Please feel free to answer whatever questions you want to answer, that you feel comfortable answering.

Mr. Anders, having said that, I will ask you to continue, please.

Mr. Rob Anders: Thanks for the whip.

The Chair: Any time.

Mr. Rob Anders: I think it was aimed more at the witnesses, Mr. Chairman.

The minister has said there will be a defence review. What issues is it most important that this defence review address? Do you fear the government will use the review as an excuse to scale down defence capabilities even further? That can be addressed by either one of you.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: I am sorry to disappoint you by saying that I'm here today to represent the college and what it does for the officer corps, and the expertise I own is the war fighting expertise. Any others related to security policy, defence policy, and so on, we just don't deliver that within my own staff. We call on experts on subject matters, from universities, from government, from the diplomatic corps, and so on. They are really experts who handle these questions.

As the commandant of the college, I don't have all these kinds of expertise and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on such a question. I'm afraid I will have to disappoint you there.

Mr. Rob Anders: Let's focus on the school, then.

The Chair: Actually, Mr. Anders, I've just noticed that you're over your time.

Perhaps we could continue on with our questioning with Mr. Bachand.

[Translation]

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank Brigadier-General Gagnon for his presentation.

Personally, I still have a lot of questions about the Canadian Forces College. I went to school in one of the military colleges. There was one in my hometown and I know that there is one in Kingston, as well. Am I on the right track when I state that the people who attend the Royal Military College in Kingston are people who want to become officers because they are not yet officers while those people who go to your college are already of officer rank and they are going there for development courses? Often, this is called an educational update for people. It's a bit like what is done in civilian life. Is my understanding, up to this point, correct?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Mr. Bachand, you are right to say the Royal Military College in Kingston is the entry point for officers and that is a role which has nothing to with the college in Toronto which I represent.

Our college's mission is to welcome officers who have been selected, that is, those who have been identified as promising, candidates likely to climb the ranks. In other words, they are the future generals in the Canadian Armed Forces. These students make up the population of our college. Our role is to give them very advanced professional training which touches on various fields such as leadership, command. classic military operations, studies on national security, etc. That is really the mission of our college.

º (1600)

M. Claude Bachand: Very well. Now, you say that the professional development system covers four stages. The first provides officers with basic instruction; it usually includes a program leading to a rank in the Royal Military College. Let us suppose I am an officer who has not gone through the Royal Military College. Some are recruited by the army from universities. How and why would I go to the Royal Military College after being trained at your college, since I am already an officer? Would it be to get a higher rank?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Yes. In fact, as I said, Mr. Bachand, it is the means that serves to give our officers the necessary knowledge for conducting and planning military operations in a very complex world.

When they complete their studies at the Royal Military College, our officers feel relatively at ease in their respective communities, that is , in the navy, the army or the air force. The level of professional training that we give here, in Toronto or at our college, is already joint forces. We go beyond what the navy, the air force and the army provide in their respective domains. We carry out planing for joint and multinational operations. So, the range is really different and it teaches officers a kind of thinking which is located between the tactical and the strategic, what we call the operational art.

The second series of courses leads them to think in true strategic fashion and allows these officers to become players at NDHQ, in defining defense policies, etc.

M. Claude Bachand: Now, can you explain to the committee how the study program is set up for each of the development groups? Who identifies a young officer whom you wish to see climb the ranks and send to the Canadian Forces College? Who prepares the program for each of the four stages?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: It is prepared by the nerve centre of the college. We have a team of planners who are officers. The study program, if you will, is a basic blueprint we call the Officer General Specifications, that is, the professional standard for the officer corps. That's the blueprint. So, all program activities arise from the contents of that blueprint.

Likewise, to define the activities, we add to this analysis the interpretation of the security environment in which we operate today and in which we will be operating in the future. We also add lessons drawn from recent operations and we call upon our experts from various fields. We put their expertise to good use so that they can communicate their comments on the relevance of each of the program activities. So it is an ongoing and laborious process. As I explained earlier, it is subjected to validation criteria so order that we can be certain that the teaching truly corresponds to the needs of the officer corps.

I must say, Mr. Bachand, that when I do benchmarking with the other NATO colleges, I feel completely at ease because I think our college is in the vanguard.

M. Claude Bachand: Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair? A minute and a half. All right.

Mr. Gagnon, can you explain to the committee what happens if an officer... Right now, I am looking at the report that the minister of the day had made to the Prime Minister, in which he strongly recommended that the policies be changed and that a university diploma be required to obtain an officer's commission. Do the officers who attend your college obtain some sort of university course equivalency or credits, whatever, for the course they have completed? Can an officer who has taken and passed the courses at the college qualify for a university diploma thanks to all these credits? In other words, is he only following courses for which we are appreciative or do the courses he has taken allow him to aim for a university degree?

º (1605)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: It's done, Mr. Bachand; it's new this year. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the organization called the Ontario Council on Graduate Studies came to the college last year and, after having studied the contents of our courses and noted the professional and intellectual thoroughness of what we teach, they determined that it was the equivalent of a Masters degree. Therefore, this year our one-year program grants a Masters to students who register for the program.

You will be interested in knowing that 45 of my 93 students are following the Masters program. The program equivalencies are for a year, that is, the contents of the course is sufficient and enjoys such a high degree of intellectual credibility that no additional courses are required at the end of the year. As for those officers who are not among the 45, it is because most of them already had a Masters when they registered for our program.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bachand.

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: Can I add just a little bit more to the general remarks for that matter?

The Chair: Sure.

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: Not only do we offer the master's degree in defence studies program for the officers, which is a professional-based degree versus an academic-based degree, but the Royal Military College also credits the commandant staff course for credits against the master's degree in war studies. There are master's degrees in military arts and sciences as well. Credits are also offered for the two senior level courses that the general mentioned as well.

In effect, an officer can come in and say “Yes, I want to go down the professional route”, or in other words, take a degree like an MBA or an MPA. You can't go any further along the academic path. Or you can do the academic route, get your credits in war studies, say, eventually receive the degree in war studies, and go on and do a PhD if you choose. There are a number of different routes through which officers can enhance their education capability based on the courses we offer at the college.

The Chair: Thank you, Professor.

Mr. Wood.

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

General Gagnon, about five years ago, I guess, in 1997, the policy was changed, as you know, to make a university degree a prerequisite for becoming an officer. I have a couple of questions on that.

First, do you personally think a university degree should be mandatory? Second, has the quality of your graduates, in your mind, increased significantly since that change? Explain to me how, if a university degree should be mandatory, you now work in the commissioned officers who come from the ranks.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: On the first part of your question, I think it is now a goal of the military institution to have a degreed officer corps. One must realize that we have a serving generation of officers that will have to catch up. The key there is that at the entry point we now have a program through which joining officers will get undergraduate degrees at the early stage of their careers.

In the long run--and to me the long run is within a decade--the officer corps in the Canadian Armed Forces will have degrees, master's degrees and so on. In fact, I was chatting with the Honourable John Fraser some months ago and told him, “Mr. Fraser, I believe that within a decade in Canada the officer corps will be better educated than parliamentarians”, and he didn't slap me in the face.

An hon. member: It's not very hard.

The Chair: General, you shouldn't set your standards so low.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: I was simply mentioning that to Mr. Fraser so that we understand that we have made a tremendous amount of progress and that we have a commitment as this military institution to enhance the education of the officer corps. It is not a long-term goal that is difficult to reach; we're almost there.

As I said, now half my class is enrolled in the master's degree program and a lot of them in the other half already have master's degrees. It's changing rapidly and I fully support that.

Mr. Bob Wood: Going back to my commission from the ranks, in your mind is it taking away some incentive for people to go up through the ranks knowing that they should have a degree or that they don't? As you know, they work up through the ranks, as a number of people have. What do you do about those people when they try to move forward?

º (1610)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: This is not the mandate of the college that I represent today. I don't know if you have had by now or will have the occasion to hear from the Canadian Defence Academy, which is about to stand up on April 1. Quite frankly, it will be its mandate to look at the professional development for the other ranks.

My college responds to the requirements of the officer corps.

Mr. Bob Wood: Okay. There's obviously no doubt that more money is needed for national defence. However, most of the witnesses who have appeared before this committee so far have not really provided specific figures on how much more they would need and where it should be spent. How does your college address an issue such as financing? How do you go about asking for more money?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: I should say that I am reasonably well funded to achieve the aims that are imposed upon me. I'm quite satisfied that I have a very high degree of support from the highest ranks within the Canadian Forces. Our college is a jewel for the education of the officer corps. It is recognized as such, and I am adequately funded.

If you asked me if I can absorb more money, the answer would be yes. But I don't think it would be significant for you to pay attention to that. If I need more money, it is manageable within the envelope which is already in the ADM (HR-MIL) group within General Couture's group.

Mr. Bob Wood: With all the cuts that have been taking place in the armed forces, you didn't have to scale back anything.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: No, except that, as I said, one of my projects is to augment the throughputs of the midpoint officer. I think it's important for the officer corps. If this is approved, eventually there will be an additional funding requirement along with that. But, again, it is something that is really manageable within what is existing in ADM (HR-MIL) group.

Mr. Bob Wood: With the focus now on a different kind of battlefield, namely fighting terrorism, how has your college been able to adapt to this new type of strategy?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: I think I would have to say to you that about five years ago the college embarked on a fundamental review of its curriculum. This was badly needed because over the years the curriculum, or some parts of it, was not relevant to the officer general specification. Unfortunately, sometimes to make room for these topics that were imposed on us, we had to get out of the curriculum some war-fighting skills, so we went through a fundamental review. We have refocused our curriculum on the military profession. In order to do so, we have to understand the current and future security environment in which we work.

I think our curriculum before September 11 was therefore already addressing issues of asymmetric threats and so on. So for us, we don't have anything to catch up on. As I said, when I benchmark with NATO-allied colleges, I think we are in the leading pack in terms of curriculum content.

Mr. Bob Wood: Great.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Wood.

Mrs. Wayne.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC/DR): Thank you very much.

Brigadier-General, at Christmastime I had a call from a gentleman who wanted to know why his son, who was... he had his power wings and he could not enlist to become an air force pilot. He was told the reason was that even though he had his commercial pilot's licence, he did not have a university degree. It is a real example of an impact we're having in trying to encourage young people to come into the military. So I want to know, is this a rare case, or are we turning a lot of young people away? I'm really concerned, because the father was very concerned and he was very hurt because his son has been involved with the cadets, the reserves, and so on.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: I would hope, Mrs. Wayne, that it is a rare case. I think what we want to do today is to maximize the resources available to us and we have to look at opportunities. Among those opportunities, we must consider the skills the newcomers have available and can bring to the military institutions.

I think the Canadian Defence Academy we will be setting up as of April 1 will have as one of its four main efforts--it will have a four-track main effort--a need to be innovative and to look at cases like that one. So I would hope that's an isolated case.

º (1615)

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: In December, when the Auditor General brought in her report, the report stated that we had serious issues within our defence department where it has been having trouble staffing 18 of 36 military maintenance occupations.

She also stated they had discovered that 15% of the maintenance personnel did not have the necessary qualifications and that for 38% of the speciality courses they are required to take for the positions they are in, most of them had not taken them. What has happened with that? I ask this because the report focused on the in-service equipment and the problems of securing trades people that is very similar to what's happening in private industry. Certainly, we want people to have their master's degree, but also we want our men and our women to have the equipment they need and to have our people there who can fix that equipment and work on it.

We're very concerned about that. I looked at this, and we know there has not been enough focus on promoting the trades as a good career choice and in turn providing the educational opportunities for our youth for that. Our people seem to have the same problem now in the military as we have in the private sector.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: I understand your question, Mrs. Wayne. It's a very legitimate question, but I'm afraid it's outside of my field of expertise. I don't like to shy away from questions, but I'm afraid I wouldn't be helpful to you, because I wouldn't speak from facts. It's not my domain of work.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Okay.

Canada's military lately is often described--we've all been doing it as well--as being overstretched because of the small number of personnel and the growing number of peacekeeping and other military commitments. When officers take their courses at your college, are they there for a fixed period of time, or can they have their studies interrupted at any time because of overseas deployments they're called on for?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Our officers, Madam, are there on a full-time basis while they attend our program, and they are replaced in their positions. In other words, within the authorized manning at the rank of major, for example, there will be up to 93 additional positions granted to the military institutions so these students can come and join our college and be replaced in their current jobs. So our students cannot be recalled. They can devote their entire year to the study of the military profession, and to the master's degree for those who have enrolled under that program.

Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I see.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. That's fine.

The Chair: Thank you, Mrs. Wayne.

I'd like to get a few questions in as well, gentlemen.

I notice, in terms of reading some of the background information, Professor Mitchell, that you did an article in the winter 1999 edition of the journalArmed Forces and Society on the subject of submarines and peacekeeping. I'd be very interested if you could describe for us conclusions you might have come to.

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: Actually, it was in the University of Calgary's Journal of Military and Strategic Studies, rather than Armed Forces and Society. The article is sort of outside what we're talking about here, and you've already remonstrated with one of your colleagues, so...

The Chair: Let me rephrase the question. Is this a subject that comes up at the defence college, and how would you respond to this issue if one of your students raised it?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: Actually, I wrote the article originally prior to joining the college, because I was responding to some of the environment that was painting the whole issue of ASW--anti-submarine warfare--as a Cold War artifact and not relevant to modern military operations. I was pointing out the impact that submarines might have on naval operations conducted in a peacekeeping-type environment.

As it applies to the college curriculum, yes, it is relevant. The whole issue of naval operations is well addressed by the maritime staff at the college. Submarine issues do come up quite frequently. I don't lecture on those particular issues, because we usually have submariners come in to talk from an operational perspective on that.

º (1620)

The Chair: I have a question for you, General Gagnon, and actually, you could address this as well, Professor. It's on the whole issue of asymmetrical warfare. Maybe you could just give the committee a brief rundown on what direction you're going in on this issue. I imagine there must be a considerable amount of interest in the subject these days. Could you give us a bit of flavour as to what you're saying about the subject these days?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: As I said, Mr. President, I feel that our curriculum was positioned to deal with the future security environment. In the college I have a group of officers who are called the planners. What they do for a living is keep abreast of the most recent literature that relates to military operations. It's a full-time job to keep abreast. In order to be proficient, they participate in very specialized seminars in Canada, the United States, and Europe. They take part in some of the working groups of the NATO Conference of Commandants, and so on.

The purpose of that networking is to pinpoint what the most relevant teaching topics are in relation to the future security environments, which includes asymmetrical warfare. From there, the curriculum is massaged accordingly. They don't deliver all of the curriculum. We will try to get the best experts from around the world to deliver the key aspects, which are emerging technologies or emerging military operations in relation to the future security environments.

As to the level of those guest speakers, on my list I have General Wesley Clark, who led the Kosovo bombing campaigns, and so on. That's really the level of guest speaker we are targeting, and I believe we are successful in doing a good job there.

The Chair: Do you have any comments, Professor Mitchell?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: Yes.

There are a number of different ways, from a curriculum point of view, we can address issues like asymmetrical warfare. I believe the question is really oriented towards the increasing complexity of the international environment in which Canadian forces operate.

One of the ways we are able to deal with this is to increase the critical thinking skills of Canadian officers. A way we can do this is by integrating academics directly into the program, such as we're doing at the Canadian Forces College, either through the four academics who are going to be on site, who will contribute to the program through lectures, seminars, assisting with papers and such, or by bringing in the subject-matter experts.

What we do as academics is raise questions, raise issues, question dogma, and question doctrine to get the students thinking--and thinking in a critical fashion--about the environment they're operating in. This enhances their ability, I feel, to operate in very complex environments such as Afghanistan, or in Bosnia. That's one of the ways we can deal with this.

The other way is through a series of papers that students write on all the courses. The topics of these papers are entirely up to the student to pick. They're not directed by anybody on staff. A number of students have chosen to write on asymmetric warfare this year, including a number of people who are pursuing a master in defence studies degree. The end result of this is we're probably going to have at least three theses that will be specifically devoted to asymmetric warfare and how Canadian forces have to deal with the challenges posed by it.

These are a number of the ways the college deals with the question from an operational point of view.

º (1625)

The Chair: Are the theses that are done publicly available, in terms of the public or people like ourselves having access to the content?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: Yes. You can currently access all student papers through the college library system, which is on the college website. In the near future, the library is undergoing a software upgrade that will make these papers a little more accessible. They'll have a devoted search engine and a directory-style listing so that you will be able to browse through the papers by subject areas. They'll be extremely accessible.

The interesting thing about the papers in the past has been that when we first put them on the web, it was actually “dot-mil”--in other words, U.S. sources--that were requesting these papers the most. The number of hits our library was getting from dot-mil sites looking at our student papers was phenomenal. I think that gives you an indication of the quality of the research our students are producing at the college--that it's recognized by our closest collaborator in military operations.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Anders.

Mr. Rob Anders: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dr. Mitchell, I understand you've been doing some work with regard to Southeast Asia and the navy's strategic vision there.

One of the criticisms I've heard over the years and we were talking about just before we started today, to some extent, is that we've often been accused of focusing on tactics as opposed to strategy, especially for the big-theatre operations--the geopolitical considerations.

My understanding of the situation is you have a massive shipbuilding race going on in Southeast Asia. China is the only country that's actually keeling new nuclear submarines. There's been talk about Canada being the weak link in the ANZUS chain in terms of undersea surveillance. I'm wondering what type of training you provide in terms of that geopolitical perspective.

For example, I think it would be wise for Canada to be maybe dropping trade barriers against India and increasing them against China, vis-à-vis the geopolitical situation there. What type of training is provided on those issues?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: I wouldn't characterize what we do at the college as training; it's education, first of all. That's an important distinction to make, because training is a set of regularized procedures to achieve a specific end, whereas what you're doing with education is trying to form the mind.

Secondly, what we do at the college cannot be described as tactical. We focus on operational level issues at the majors course, the command and staff course, and we focus on strategic level issues with the national securities studies course. So we don't get really into the tactics. That's done at an earlier developmental period in an officer's education.

From a geopolitical perspective, a number of exercises are done throughout the year. In the first term, in the command and staff course, the majors course, a number of formative lectures are given on the basics of international relations and international politics. These provide officers with conceptual ideas in order to help them understand the international environment around them.

Later on there's an exercise known as “global express”, which pairs off various students into syndicates. Each syndicate looks at particular regions of the globe from a geopolitical perspective and from a political risk perspective and makes presentations before a panel of academics who are expert in those particular regions.

Those are two of the ways in which we talk about the whole role of geopolitics and how the Canadian Forces fits into those particular aspects.

Mr. Rob Anders: I know I've requested in the past from the Library of Parliament the texts used at some of those colleges. If you could ever get a list of textbooks used, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

The second question I have is that the army.... Well, first off, I take it that part of what you do is try to inculcate or teach good leadership, or educate on good leadership. Would you say that army commander Lieutenant Mike Jeffery is a fine example of somebody demonstrating courage, clarity, and foresight?

º (1630)

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: That would require me to give a personal opinion as opposed to a professional one, and I would prefer not to answer that question. I don't believe I have the intellectual tools with which to make a valid comment in that matter.

Mr. Rob Anders: Nonetheless, I look forward to his presentation.

The Chair: Mr. Anders, feel free to unload your questions.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Rob Anders: Yes, that's what I'm doing.

Brigadier-General Gagnon, you've been to Montpellier and Camberley, which I think are great places to go and check out. You mentioned field study trips. We do one flight over the Arctic per year right now with an Aurora. I'm excited by the idea that somebody might be interested in doing some Arctic sovereignty issues. If you were to get more money for field study trips, would you hope to spend more of that doing Arctic surveillance or activities up there?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Yes, but what I partly would like to achieve with an additional field study trip is a good understanding among the Canadian officer corps about the different provinces, the territories, and the complexity of the Arctic, the far north. I would like them to have that exposure.

I feel that we do a good job visiting NATO headquarters in Europe and so on. I feel it is a deficiency from a Canadian perspective not to acquaint our officers sufficiently with each of the provinces and the far north. Perhaps we take it for granted that as Canadian officers they have already acquired that diversity of perspective. That's why I would like to include in my program such a trip, and I'm quite confident that we're going to make it happen soon.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Anders.

Monsieur Bachand.

[Translation]

M. Claude Bachand: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a document here that sort of follows up on the official announcement about ethics which was put forward by the Canadian Forces in 1997. I will read you a short passage.

The undergraduate program at the Royal Military College will be reviewed to increase the emphasis on developing values, ethics and leadership skills.

And what follows concerns you:

This will also apply to the curriculum of the Canadian Forces Command and Staff College

And then they give examples of what they want to do.

When I read this passage, it reminds me of a concept that we did a lot of work on last year, an enhanced leadership and ethical model? Am I right, and is it almost the same thing?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Actually, Mr. Bachand, we have effectively reviewed our programs and I can tell you that each of our courses includes modules on leadership and ethics. For us, this is an important dimension that we are now handling in a much more conceptual manner with the officers registered at our college than is done, for example, at the admission level of the Collège militaire de Saint-Jean.

For example, at our college, we study concrete cases. Recently, at the college, we had a team of officers who made a presentation on the Canadian campaign in Somalia from a few years ago, on the lessons we could draw from it, etc. We had as expert lecturers some key players from that time. The goal was precisely to make the officers aware of the ethical dimensions which surround any form of military operation, abroad or in Canada. Therefore, it is something that cannot be dissociated from leadership.

M. Claude Bachand: So, the enhanced leadership and ethical model, you know what that is.

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BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Yes, except it is an entry point for the officers corps, which, in fact, includes leadership, ethics, etc. We cover the same subjects, but in greater different depth and range for the officers we deal with.

M. Claude Bachand: Are you aware, Brigadier-General, that about a year ago, the federal government wanted to concentrate the whole enhanced leadership model at the former Collège militaire de Saint-Jean? In your opinion, does what I just read mean that they are abandoning this idea and that they are going to proceed in some other manner or, in your opinion, is it still a matter of grouping all the officers together in the same location to give them this type of training in leadership and in ethics?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Mr. Bachand, it is difficult to answer your question and one is uneasy when one refuses to answer a question. But, again, this is not in my field of expertise and responsibility. If I were to venture to answer you, I know that I would not take into account all the known facts and I would risk misleading you, at least, in part.

M. Claude Bachand: So, it's a question I should address to General Couture, who is perhaps your hierarchical superior.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Yes, certainly, Mr. Bachand.

M. Claude Bachand: Now, I have a question about the MTAP, the Military Training Assistance Program. I thought I read in your presentation that you were doing some of that, but I also know that at the military base of Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, there was also a Military Training Assistance Program. I would like to know where the contents of that program came from and who decided upon it. Is it you? Was it applied at Saint-Jean?

Maybe I will also ask a supplementary question. Is the Military Training Assistance Program applied elsewhere than at the college in Toronto and the military base at Saint-Jean, at the moment?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Actually, Mr. Bachand, we do not have a program specifically designed to fill this need. Our programs are designed for the professional development of Canadian officers and are grafted on to programs for international participants, as I described it. We have no programs aimed at that particular goal.

On the other hand, I know that there are other establishments elsewhere in Canada which have that mandate, but I would not be able to speak about them knowledgeably.

M. Claude Bachand: But I just want to read the following, so that we understand each other, Brigadier-General:

There was a mention of the participation of international officers in the College's courses. Two programs make that possible: many of them are part of bilateral exchanges, but others are participants in the Military Training Assistance Program.

You say that, right here in your presentation. There are therefore people who are following the courses of the Military Training Assistance Program at your college.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: You're right and I should perhaps rephrase my answer. Our programs are there to meet the needs of the professionals of the Canadian officer corps. Now, among the non-Canadians who come to our college, there are those who are part of bilateral exchanges, but there are also those who come from those countries.

However, they come here to participate in our regular programs that are given in-house. For us, it's clear. If an officer comes from one of those countries or if he comes from one of the NATO countries, it doesn't change anything. That is what I meant in my earlier response.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bachand.

Mr. Dromisky.

Mr. Stan Dromisky (Thunder Bay--Atikokan, Lib.): Thank you very much.

It was an interesting comment you made about your library. Wasn't it The Wall Street Journal that claimed it was one of the best in North America?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: The library is called the War, Peace and Security site. The head librarian sometimes receives awards that are available on the Internet. It's a web-based library and is known as the best of its kind around the world--so said The Wall Street Journal at one point.

Mr. Stan Dromisky: That's interesting, in light of what the United States has at the present time.

However, there are officers and then there are officers, just like there are MPs and then there are MPs. I'm interested in that point of entry into your degree program for officers, especially the ones with masters' who go on and eventually get PhDs. I hope you'll be able to help set up a program in that area and help to deliver it.

What kinds of criteria or strategies or assessment tools or anything like that are used on these candidates at the point of entry? Is it just the fact that they have maybe an undergraduate degree, or the fact that they are officers already? Do you do any personality type indicators? Do you do any psychological assessments or anything of that nature?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Mr. Dromisky, are you talking about the point of entry in our programs at the college with senior officers?

Mr. Stan Dromisky: Yes, that's right.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: These officers are selected from the merit lists. They are selected for their potential to continue to grow in rank, and they go through our program. In addition to our military program, they can enroll in the master's degree program, and that one is managed by the Royal Military College, which has a university charter--

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Mr. Stan Dromisky: So it's the Royal Military College that makes the assessment and puts them on this special list from which you pluck candidates? Is that the way it works?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Yes. They do apply, and they go through a selection process from RMC in Kingston, because they are the agency that has a university charter. Among the criteria, they must have an undergraduate degree. There are several other criteria, which are similar in many universities across the country.

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: I can speak directly to those issues because I sit on the selection board for the master's in defence studies program.

Essentially, as the general says, in order to qualify you have to have a bachelor's degree. It has to be an honours degree, which means a four-year degree; however, RMC is willing to offer provisional status to students who have less than an honours degree. If they're coming in with good marks in a three-year degree program, the Royal Military College will admit officers into the MDS program on a provisional basis. This means they do the complete program at the college, including the thesis, and then upon completion of that they are required to do one to three additional university level courses. At the completion of that, they're awarded the master's in defence studies degree.

Essentially, as the general pointed out, the entrance qualifications for the master's in defence studies program are identical to that of any master's program across the country.

Mr. Stan Dromisky: I'm interested in your administrative model, how that institution is set up. In post-secondary educational institutions like universities and colleges, we have the president, we have a board of governors, we have deans, we have a senate, and so forth. Is yours a pure military model with one superior officer who knows everything and God speaks to him directly and he has the answers to everything?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: It cannot be like that. That is not our desire.

For us what is important is to have credibility in our program, credibility seen from society's perspective, from the institutions within society. One of them is the Ontario Council on Graduate Studies. Our books are open to them and we are subject to verification any time, and there will be verifications any time.

To add the framework around the credibility that I spoke about, which is important for me, I have doubled the numbers of PhDs within the college. I am about to create a board of visitors, which will be made up of renowned academics from across Canada. The aim of that board of visitors will be to provide me with an assessment on the quality of our programs in terms of content and in terms of delivery as well.

We also have to be accountable to the Royal Military College of Kingston, and we have a process in place that allows us to do that. The written deliverables of our students who have enrolled in the master's degree program have to be marked by people who own academic degrees, who own master's or PhD degrees at least.

So the right tools are in place to preserve the integrity of the program, not to jeopardize the reputation of RMC, which is the degree granting institution, and also to achieve what we had in mind: a long-term officer corps with graduate degrees, with master's degrees.

The Chair: Thanks, Mr. Dromisky.

To follow up on Mr. Dromisky's line of questioning, gentlemen, can you give us your website address, which would be the War, Peace and Security site?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: It would be wps.cfc.dnd.ca. That's for the library site. I would point out that the college has a separate site as well, which also has a valuable link, a military news section, and that can be accessed at www.cfc.dnd.ca. And if you go there you'll see “Military News” at the top. It's an unparalleled resource.

The U.S. military has a news service called Early Bird, which is a series of press clippings. This is far and away superior to that, I would argue. I've seen both of them, and this is an excellent site. It's maintained by our college webmaster. It's absolutely brilliant.

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The Chair: You've set some fairly high expectations there for us, but we'll definitely check it out.

Mr. Anders.

Mr. Rob Anders: Brigadier-General Gagnon, in your biography it mentions Montpellier and Camberley, and obviously the training here in Canada. Out of curiosity, where, for example, would the Germans have that type of education?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Mr. Anders, they have their equivalent to our college. They call that an academy. We have a permanent exchange of students with the Germans. From the Germans' perspective, they are very reluctant to send their students, their officers to foreign colleges. We happen to be one of the very few exceptions. This is their approach.

I don't know if that answers your question.

Mr. Rob Anders: What I meant was physically. Where in their country do they do their education?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: It is in Hamburg.

Mr. Rob Anders: Are the courses that are now offered at the Canadian Forces College, such as the advanced military studies course, different from what was offered five years ago?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: These courses did not exist five years ago, in fact. We just finished the AMSC serial 4 at Christmas. So it's been running for four years.

There was a gap in the professional development of the officer corps. We had no in-house courses in Canada on operational art, that level that sits between tactics and strategy.

There has been a gap also for several years after the closure of the National Defence College, which used to be in Kingston, which had the strategic focus course. That course was closed in the mid-1990s and we have replaced it with the national security studies course. It is running in-house and it is serial 4. So it is the fourth year since we have resumed giving professional education at the strategic level.

Having said that, our vision of the future, as I said, is that we want that course to become a year-long course. And I do benchmark it with some United States war colleges and with the Royal College of Defence Studies in London, U.K. These are, in our belief, relevant models that respond well to the requirement of the military profession at the strategic level. We want NSSC to become quite similar.

Mr. Rob Anders: At the college, discussion must happen now and again with regard to these things. What type of discussion is there with regard to the most urgent shortcomings and capabilities of the Canadian navy that need to be addressed today? What is the discussion at the college in terms of the key equipment priorities of the navy for the future?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: We want our students to receive all sides of the coin and all perspectives. We don't want to educate our students in a mould. It would be detrimental to the officer corps. It's not what we want to achieve here. In order to do so, they are exposed to the perspective of all of the key players. More than once a year, the army commander, the navy commander, and the air force commander come and brief our students. They put in front of them the issues they wrestle with on a daily basis.They do it in a privileged platform kind of perspective. They really share with them the realities of life.

To complement it, we have academics who look at the same issues, but from an academic perspective. They come and address the same issues to our students. At the end of the day, the college will never say to the students “this is the right answer” or “that was the right briefing, we don't believe in the other one.” We hope we equip our students intellectually so they can draw their conclusions and exercise their good judgment. It is what we try to accomplish.

º (1650)

Mr. Rob Anders: What would be some of the themes for your presenters with regard to equipment priorities?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Quite frankly, it's for the guest speaker to lay out in front of the students the issues with which they wrestle. I'm afraid it wouldn't be appropriate for me. I would be incapable of replaying what they have said. As I said, I have 200 guest speakers a year.

I can tell you, as an example, yesterday I had Ambassador Paul Cellucci briefing my students. He told them about his perspective on sovereignty issues from a Canadian military perspective, his own perspective, and so on. It led the way to a very interesting and stimulating question and answer period.

I think we expose our students to first-class, top-level guest speakers. We expose them to all trends and also to blunt reality.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Anders.

Mr. O'Reilly, do you have a question?

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton--Victoria--Brock, Lib.): I know you sunk very low one time on your guest speaker list, because you had me there. All of the presenters were not of the highest calibre, I could well say. Anyway, I enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun.

When you're dealing from a privileged platform, it's tough to turn around and talk about questions you were asked and answers you were given. I find you've been quite elusive on it. I'm glad you didn't mention anything that was said to me. It was certainly on a platform that I felt I could be very honest and forthright. The grilling I was given, even from the international students, was pretty heavy-duty, as far as being a member of the government. I don't know. Someone said I was the first civilian they were able to grill there.

Do you intend to have other members of Parliament or this committee come to the college to see what the facilities are and how they operate? Is it in future plans? Do you intend to involve more parliamentarians, such as the opposition members, in your programs so they, too, can learn about some of the advanced studies carried on there?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: It's a dream of mine, Mr. O'Reilly, to be quite frank and open with you. In fact, I sent a letter to the chairman, Mr. Pratt, to invite your committee to visit our national security studies course, which is a strategic one. You will see at play the senior generals of the Canadian Forces.

I believe I've identified the May period. In the May timeframe, there will be an exercise. I will bring along and assess the students here in Ottawa. We will play real strategic exercises.

To have the right scope and the right level of exercises, we hire people to assist us, such as the former Minister of National Defence, the former Clerk of the Privy Council, and those kinds of people. Plus, we will inject in our real exercise, the real players of the day, the Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff and other officers of his group. We paint to our officer corps the most realistic picture in terms of the strategic environment in which they have to deal and in which they have to formulate military options to offer to government.

It's a dream of mine to expose what we're doing to parliamentarians. I guess the first step is to invite SCONDVA. The door is always open to have any of your colleagues from Parliament from any party. Take it, please, as a personal invitation. I really mean what I say.

For me and the students to understand Canada, to understand its governance structure and so on, we have to be in touch not only with academics and subject-matter experts, but with the leaders. They have to be in touch with the elected members of Parliament.

Yes, the door is open, Mr. O'Reilly.

º (1655)

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton--Victoria--Brock, Lib.): Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly.

Mr. Bachand.

[Translation]

M. Claude Bachand: Mr. Chair, we haven't spoken very much about the Reserve Forces or the Militia. I would like to know if they are handled differently or are they on equal footing with any officer who wishes to climb the ranks of the military hierarchy.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Mr. Bachand, first, I would say that all the courses designed at the college are accessible to reservists. However, as these courses are given full-time, to take them and to participate in our programs, the reservists have to obtain leave from their civilian employer to take them.

Having said that, one of the programs is especially designed for reservists. It includes a distance-learning module available on the Internet and a home-teaching module which lasts two weeks during the summer, which corresponds to the time usually available to reservists. This is what we currently have at the college.

When I think of the future, I would like it if the one-year main course could be given in stages on the Internet, which would allow the officer corps, be they reservists or regulars, to enroll in a program like that, even if it takes them two years to finish it. I think this would greatly benefit the officer corps, whether the latter be reservists or regular officers. This is really what I envision for the future.

M. Claude Bachand: Now, could you tell me what the college's annual budget is?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: It's a small budget. The operational budget is $6 million per year, which does not include the salaries of military personnel, which amount to about $14 million.

M. Claude Bachand: I also read in your presentation that there are hotel-like complexes where people can live, sometimes in suites - there are 90 of them - when they are taking courses.

I also see in your presentation that you want to increase the capacity of the college by about 40 percent. I would simply like to know if that would necessarily mean 40 more rooms or, if we go back to what you said earlier regarding the ever-growing importance of more distance-learning, if you are considering increasing your capacity to train people at a distance through modular courses, specific courses they could take through their computers, on the Internet, for example. I imagine that is your vision for the future.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: As a matter of fact, in the notes I distributed to you, the 40 percent applies to officers partway through their career path, to majors. I would especially like to increase that capacity by 40 percent, from 93 to 115 or 120, it doesn't matter, we will eventually agree on an acceptable number.

We could currently provide accommodation within the college. The 90 suites are not all occupied by the students. We still have a good residential capacity. This project is feasible with additional costs which I would describe as minor. That is what I am considering.

Now, if we think about the next step, when we will have a distance-learning version of the main program available on the Internet, there will be no infrastructure problems. People will be able to enroll in these programs from wherever they live. I think there are possibilities in this direction.

This being said, this type of course does not replace courses given in residence. I spoke of the AMSC and NSCC strategic courses, of which we have had four series and for which we have four consecutive years of experience. One of the expressions of appreciation we hear repeated from time to time by our students about this course, is the extraordinary benefits they received by hearing noted lecturers in class which they would not otherwise have had access to and to have been able to have exchanges with them during question periods. There are different ways of learning but that one is one of the most powerful, very effective and very difficult to reproduce on the Internet. So, the Internet, yes, but not to replace courses given in residence.

[English]

The Chair: Anything further questions, Mr. Bachand?

I have a question, General and Professor, in regard to the whole issue of joint and combined operations. Obviously that's pretty important for Canada, given our history of involvement in coalitions, and especially these days given the joint nature of the operation we're conducting in Afghanistan. Can you tell me about the level of instruction and the concentration in terms of the course material on those sorts of issues, and where you see that going in the future?

» (1700)

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: The college is really joint, and the program for the main midpoint officer is split into four terms. Right now, currently, three of the four terms are completely joint. One of them is still a component term. In other words, the air force studies air force warfare together as a group, and the same applies for the army and the navy.

Our vision of the future is to transform that term into a fully joint term. We have engaged discussions with the army, the navy, and the air force, and we believe that we will be able to implement that within two years, I hope. I think then we will be more joint than any comparable college within NATO. The British have adopted our model, but they retained a component term within their model, and I don't believe they are ready to shift that term into a completely joint term.

To us it's the nature of the operations. Canada has a policy of being able to project forces overseas, to intervene where need be in accordance with our values, and no operation in such a context can be a single-service operation. This is the key driver, and this is why our college is joint in everything it does except for that term three, which will be transformed within, I suppose, two years.

The Chair: One of the other issues that comes to mind in terms of the education of officers was raised by General Dallaire when he was here quite a few months ago. He talked about the new situations that peacekeepers are facing, the new challenges they're facing on the ground in terms of understanding what's happening in places like Africa, for instance. He listed a bunch of areas where peacekeepers, senior officers, could probably use training. One of the things he mentioned that stuck out in my mind is anthropology. Is that something you deal with at the college in terms of any of the course material? I think he also mentioned probably philosophy as well and a number of other subjects.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Yes. In fact, in the expansion of our academic footprint within the college we want to have experts in some of these domains, although we cannot afford to have them all, so we will continue to rely on contracting subject-matter experts.

But you're right, the complexity of operations nowadays involves a very good understanding from the military perspective of the legal framework in which you operate, of what are the ethical issues you face on the ground, and that you have the ultimate understanding that a wrong decision at the tactical level may have an impact at the strategic dimension right away. It is a reality that military operations have to deal with, military leaders have to deal with.

I would ask Paul to complement my answer.

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: One of the academics who we just hired is a sociologist. He's not an anthropologist, but we are looking at more of the social sciences, as it were, in that respect in contributing to the program.

In terms of philosophy, we don't go into the political or social philosophy per se. However, there are a number of modules that look at military philosophy and philosophers of military warfare and so on and so forth. So officers study Sun-tzu, Clausewitz, Moltke, a whole series of military thinkers of the past 2,000 years, really, in a particular module of--

The Chair: You hit my next question head on with that, so it's very interesting to know. So senior officers when they finish the courses have some level of familiarity then with those authors?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: That's correct. The command and staff course and the advanced military studies course both cover off the philosophers of military warfare in a fairly in-depth fashion. Occasionally, students do choose to write their papers on them. In fact, this year one of the German students is writing on Moltke and his contributions to operational art.

» (1705)

The Chair: So there's continuing relevance to those old texts.

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: Absolutely. Our military historian is quite a fanatic of Sun-tzu, and so likes to inculcate eastern notions within his students as much as possible. But the operational art is heavily influenced by writers such as von Clausewitz and von Moltke, so these issues are of continuing relevance today.

The Chair: My final question relates to the contact you have with the senior bureaucrats at the college. You made some comments about that earlier, General, in your opening remarks. I'm just wondering if you can provide us with any anecdotal information or observations on the level of understanding of senior bureaucrats with respect to the challenges that are being faced by the military today.

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: What I could offer you is the fact that among the programs we run there's a short two-week strategic studies seminar. It is run once a year and it is a half-and-half audience--half military and half civilian.

The civilian colleagues come from the federal, provincial, and territorial governments, and the other half of the civilian audience comes from the private sector. We try to aim at the decision-makers, policy-makers, and so on.

Last year we resumed running such a seminar, and it was an eye-opener for our civilian colleagues, as they said at the end of the course. They qualified our strategic studies seminar as a huge success, and asked us if we could run two series a year.

Right now my tempo is one series a year. It will take place in May. I have released letters to the provincial and territorial governments and so on, and a lot of major industries across Canada. We have already had a lot of answers back, and will have to select to reduce the list, as we will have more applicants than room available.

So the demand is there, and as I said, when I read their course critique, it was a real eye-opener. But from a military perspective it's an essential requirement, in my mind.

You will recall the naval operation on the ship Katie, about two years ago. From a military perspective it was a low-level military operation, but to carry out that operation took the involvement of several departments of the federal government--the Solicitor General, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and so on. The lesson there is that whenever you plan a strategic military response, you have to interface with other strategic players across multi-departments of government.

So if we intend to educate our officer corps at the strategic level, we need to have our civilian colleagues in the classrooms with us. But you will understand that it takes a significant commitment for other departments to release their senior bureaucrats for a year-long course. Currently it's a six-month course, but it's going to become a year-long course. It takes a huge commitment, but to me this is the way ahead. I think not only the military institution will benefit from that, but other departments as well.

We used to have a National Defence College in Kingston, and that course used to go across Canada visiting each of the provinces. They used to be briefed by the premiers of the provinces. I know if I go across Canada now, premiers won't make themselves available for my NSS course because they see it as being for a purely military audience. But I know once we have our senior bureaucrats in-house with us, we will draw the attention of the provincial premiers, and so on. It will raise the level of the course on all kinds of fronts, as I described to you.

So I'm a firm believer in this, and I have succeeded in securing the support of the Chief of the Defence Staff. We share that vision. I believe he will follow up on it, and hopefully that will happen soon.

» (1710)

The Chair: Are there any other questions from members?

Gentlemen, are there any other comments you would like to make to us, or areas you would like to further elaborate on, in terms of earlier issues?

BGen J.J.R. Gagnon: Mr. Pratt, it has been a bit difficult for me to express myself in English. I have those days when I feel fluent; on other days I feel it's more difficult. What I'd like you to remember today is how proud I am of that Canadian Forces College. If I say so, it's because I mean it. I think our country has a jewel in our military institution, and I have mentioned many times that when I compare notes with NATO colleges, I'm very proud. I really mean what I say. And I encourage you, once you have read my letter, to bring the members of your committee to visit us. You will be pleased, let me assure you.

The Chair: I think your pride in the institution has certainly been transmitted here in very strong terms today. We certainly appreciate the role the Canadian Forces College is playing in the overall structure of our operational readiness and in the need to educate our officers to the very highest levels so that they can work with our allies and friends in terms of general issues of peace and security.

Professor, do you have any further comments?

Dr. P.T. Mitchell: I would just reiterate some of the comments the general has made. Frequently I'm asked by academic counterparts at universities if I would not prefer to be working at a civilian institution. I have to say that I wouldn't. The quality of the staff and the research by students at the Canadian Forces College is of such a level that as an academic it is a true joy to work in that environment, professionally as a teacher but also as somebody who's interested in researching national defence issues. The level of the experience of the officers, both on staff and attending the course, is of such high quality that I am afforded opportunities as a researcher that are simply unavailable to any other academic in a civilian institution across the country.

On top of that, as I said, the level of research being produced by the students at the college is of phenomenal quality as well, and often forms the basis of a lot of the stuff that I later publish. It's a real joy to work there.

I would echo the general's comments that the college is in fact a jewel among the institutions that are supported by the Canadian Forces.

The Chair: Again, gentlemen, on behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank you for being here today. We very much appreciate your comments. I think they've been very helpful in terms of giving us some background as far as what the Canadian Forces is doing in the area of education. Once again, on behalf of all the members of committee, thank you very much for being here today.

The meeting is adjourned.