FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, October 21, 1997

• 1617

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Bill Graham (Toronto Centre—Rosedale, Lib.)): Order.

Along with the minister from Colombia today we have with us His Excellency Alfonso Lopez Caballero, the Colombian ambassador to Canada, and our ambassador to Colombia, Mr. Bill Ross.

On behalf of the committee members, I welcome Your Excellency.

[Editor's Note: Chairman speaks in Spanish]

May I suggest, Minister, that you make an opening statement to the members of the committee. Our usual practice here is that we have a statement from our guest, and then members take the chance to ask them questions about issues that interest them in respect to the country.

The Honourable Maria Emma Mejia Velez (Minister of Foreign Relations, Government of Colombia): Thank you very much.

I first want to thank you and all the members of the foreign relations committee for receiving me and for your constant and permanent interest in both the fate and the future of Colombia, of South America, and of course your neighbours in the hemisphere.

We're in a very important time in our relations, the MPs and ambassadors, because we are about to have a hemispheric meeting at the Summit of the Americas in Chile next April 1998 that will define not only the trade and the economic relations between our hemispheres but also the potentiality of the 850 million inhabitants we have in this hemisphere.

The regional integration process has developed so quickly and so importantly in our region, particularly in South America. I refer not only to what you did with NAFTA in terms of Mexico but also what you began in July with NAFTA in terms of Chile, which I understand has given certain initial good results. We also will be there to discuss the ECLAC, and the possibilities for a regional integration.

• 1620

As you know, Colombia was, I would say, one of the most closed of nations in economic and political terms. We had followed this tradition of CEPAL, which is this organization of the UN, this way of developing protectionist trade and economic protectionism. I think we followed that school closely and we were very tied to it.

We've been able in only six years really to open our economy and to integrate our region, which is important. We integrated through the Andean Pact, together with Venezuela, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, and Colombia. We've just signed with MERCOSUR an initiation of negotiations for December 31 of this year, so we will have a South America united: MERCOSUR and the Andean community nations.

We have an agreement, the G-3 trade agreement, that gives us trade with the 100 million people of Mexico, Venezuela, and Colombia. We have strengthened, yet not signed, our relations with CARICOM, the 14 Caribbean nations, and of course the Mercado Común Central Americano, the Central American common market.

We have greatly diversified our relations, particularly with Europe. I think that has given us a different view and perspective on economic regional integration. Europe has now become our second economic partner in the region, with about $6 billion of trade between ourselves. Of course the integration with Canada and the presence of Canada and the Americans towards the closing of our relations in the Summit of the Americas in April would be of great importance.

Politically, you know Colombia has had many difficulties. I'm sure the press, even the Canadian press, has kept you up to date on our difficulties, dear Chairman and dear members of the committee. Colombia has had many difficulties. It's impossible to hide them and it's not our will to hide them. First on the subject of guerrillas, for over 40 years now—we're getting near our fourth decade, really—there has been the presence of guerrilla groups in our country. We have had for over two decades the presence of narcotics trafficking in our country. We have had, of course, the great difficulty of those two merging together, those two very powerful, violent groups getting together.

We are hoping we can initiate what should be a peace process in which we hope your country, this parliament, your committee, can play a role. We know that to initiate peace is maybe the only possible solution to solve the human rights problem, which I know worries this House and many others in the world, not only here in Canada. I have just met with the NGOs and they are worried. They have a serious preoccupation with this situation of human rights, of course. But we won't solve it unless there is peace.

We have initiated what we could call the eighth attempt over the last twelve years to have a peace process, maybe in a methodology different from previous times; that is, a method of not sitting here at this table and solving all the difficulties in a dialogue or negotiation with the guerrillas but more in the style of the Guatemala peace treaty, which was initiated just by a framework, initially, continuing with what can be, after the writing of the.... As you know, this government is only a few months from leaving office. Next May we will go into the presidential elections. There's never any re-election in Colombia. The president can never come back. I hope we don't follow the same track. As ministers we can come back, but maybe not in this period.

• 1625

At any rate, we will have a new government, and maybe it's unrealistic to think we will achieve peace now in these last months, particularly with an election on the road, but we will have to try to continue having proposals of peace—civil proposals.

We have a very important election this coming Sunday, which is the local municipal election. Your government gave its support in a communiqué—it was important for us—saying democracy is at stake. We want to protect and cherish the democratic system in Colombia. The guerrillas are threatening the rights of many to vote. We've had the withdrawal of 9% of the candidates from congress.

We will, of course, make sure the elections take place. If those who cannot now participate in the elections can postpone the voting until no later than the end of this year, we could have a certain initiation of the peace process.

As you know, our country has the third-largest population and the third-largest economy in the continent. We have a large population.

We have had a very orthodox management of our economy over the years, with controlled inflation and foreign investment that has grown considerably over the years. Your country is now the largest foreign investor in Colombia—I don't know if you know that—in gas pipelines, infrastructure and energy. In the area of telecommunications Bell Canada International is number one in cellular communication and in telephone line installation. It's going to install about 700,000 telephone lines.

One would say there is a relation, though our trade is just over $800 million, which is much less than we should have. We do $11 billion of trade with the United States, so why not? Our vocation has been the north. We are not Europeans. We have diversified and now Europe is our second partner, but somehow we should stimulate our political relations through OAS, our hemispheric relations around the Summit of the Americas, and of course our trade and economic prosperity for both countries.

We need to better human rights. We need you to help us in the peace process. We hope that together, with your support, help, and the knowledge of our countries—Canada has been for many years outside Latin America somehow, or far from Latin America—you can play an important role there in our conflicts and in our good parts as well.

With the interest in this house—and I know you have preoccupations with us and your constituents have preoccupations with us—I hope we will be able to sort of merge the two countries: the good, prosperous, economically stable, democratic country, together with that other country that somehow is there—violent, insecure, difficult, and that somehow doesn't want to solve its peace or internal problems.

That is such a quick summary of what we are and the potential we have. Of course we have difficulties and we have the desire to get close to Canada, in the good and in the bad, and try to support one another in the role you could play and you have to play at the end of this century when so many things are to be refined, particularly in 1998.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, MPs.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Minister, for a eloquent and very frank review of the situation in your country.

Before I turn it over to members for questions, I wonder if I might just check something. I understand you have a press interview at five o'clock, or ten after. It's right across the street, so we should look to leaving here no later than five o'clock. So let's just try to keep an eye on the time.

Madame Debien.

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[Translation]

Mrs. Maud Debien (Laval East, BQ): Good afternoon, Madam Minister. Do you understand French?

The Hon. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: I speak the language very poorly and I apologize for that, but I do understand it quite well.

Mrs. Maud Debien: I would like to welcome you to our committee and also to welcome you on behalf of my party, the Bloc Québécois.

In your statement, you alluded to the human rights problem in Columbia. We parliamentarians meet fairly often with Canadian NGOs working in your country. The impression we have of Colombia is of a country beset by violence and we are both saddened and rather disturbed by this situation.

We are told that for the most part, the main problems are caused by paramilitary and guerrilla groups and even by the group known as the conviviras, the rural security force established by the government. According to the NGOs, the conviviras are a new type of paramilitary group. We are told that these are the groups responsible for the problems in your country, in addition, of course, to the drug cartels.

As you know, the United Nations and the Organization of American States have repeatedly asked the Colombian government to demilitarize guerrilla and paramilitary groups and even to repeal the legislation governing the conviviras.

Aside from making speeches and affirming principles, what concrete steps does the Colombian government intend to take to demilitarize all of these groups, particularly on the eve of an election which is scheduled, I believe, to be held in six or seven months' time? The prevailing climate of fear and violence could hinder voter turnout. That's my first question.

Secondly, I would like you to discuss in further detail the situation in the Choc« region. I imagine that you are well-aware of the problems experienced by the aboriginal groups and Afro- Colombians who live in this region and of the protests they have mounted over the environmental devastation of their land. In 1992— I'm not sure if that's the exact date—they set up roadblocks and the government suddenly ordered a stop to the work underway in order to allow talks between OREWA and the Afro-Colombians of the Choc« region to proceed in the hopes that this would lead to an independent environmental assessment.

I would appreciate it if you could tell us a little more about this issue. Those are my two questions.

The Hon. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: With your permission, I will answer your questions in English.

[English]

You have touched on very sensitive issues that it is important for you and all the world to know. These organizations were legally constituted two years ago. They're called the conviviras, which is like a co-operative of security to support the work of the armed forces or the work of the police forces in regions in which we have certain conflict.

• 1635

It is difficult to explain to many why we bring civilians to work to help the military forces. Isn't that what the international community disqualifies because it is involving civilians in the internal conflict of the country? With the complexity of the situation of Colombia it's impossible for civilians not to participate in the search for a solution.

I know the conviviras in certain parts maybe produce more violence than solutions; that is true. But the idea was to have the conviviras supporting with communications, with information. If there is something remote going on in Urabá or in Chocó, they could come and inform those who have the legal power and the legal authority about the solution.

There would be and should be in no longer than a month a resolution by the constitutional court on the several demands by citizens on the constitutionality of this figure: can a civilian participate and help the military or the state in the solution of the internal conflict?

The government meanwhile has stopped the licences of the conviviras so we can review them in the light given to us by the constitutional court. How do we have civilians helping us? We have unfortunately an institution that is only started to be reformed, which is the judicial system. Impunity, as you know better than me, is at risk in Colombia and is questioned because it is difficult to resolve cases. We are trying to see, of course, the reform of.... Justice reform only began in 1991. Still, we have the money, we are getting judges to be more professional now, getting better-paid lawyers, but that takes time to change. There's a consciousness of that need, but of course there is a consciousness that there are too many demands on the conviviras and the government has cancelled the issuing of licences until we evaluate with the court what we could do.

I would lie to you if I said we can stop from this figure now. We cannot stop having a figure like that, because we need the civilians to help us. But of course we can rule how the participation is and we could exercise higher controls, particularly from the civil authorities, who are now out of the project. A governor or a mayor in a province doesn't get the news from a convivira in his neighbourhood or in her area. So we will work on that, Madam Debien, and we will see if we can better the conviviras.

But of course, as you say, the general conflict, how do we demilitarize all the groups, the paramilitaries and the conviviras, the armed forces as well. They're consuming almost 9% of our GDP, so of course it is serious. Justice and defence are consuming a lot of our budget. Can we work on that? Can we really produce peace?

There is something that has changed in Colombia: the things that happened last year with narco-traffic. People are up to here, because really narco-traffic almost decivilized our democracy, corrupted our political parties, almost took down a president of Colombia. It got very near, narco-traffic. We want peace. It spread the worries. It's not only your preoccupation, it's the European Parliament's and the NGOs, and it is a serious preoccupation of the men and women of Colombia. I think that has changed.

There will be a very important vote, as you know, Madam Debien. This Sunday we have the municipal elections. There is a vote: 500 NGOs proposed a vote on a referendum for peace. It's the second time we use the figure of a referendum in our new constitution.

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Can we achieve peace? Can we get a massive vote of three million or four million people voting for peace? That would be a clear message for all of those that you have described, for the violence that has abused the conviviras, for the paramilitaries, for the armed forces as well, that they have to follow a rule of law and a rule of manhood and living. Of course it will be a message for the guerrillas that unfortunately has gone into what it shouldn't.

I'm conscious of the worrisome situation of Choco and the Afro-Colombian community. We just met a few NGOs; some of them expressed the same preoccupation. Unfortunately, part of the country that had never been touched by violence is now a big key centre of violence and they are in the middle. Unfortunately, the civil population is always in the middle.

We're conscious of that, particularly of the displacement of men, but particularly women and children who are displaced from the Afro-Colombian community. We're working strongly on that, and I hope that we can solve a problem that always takes you to the end, which is that finally we have to achieve peace.

We cannot continue this war. We are the last country in this hemisphere with an internal war, sir.

Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Minister, let me also welcome you to our country, and to Ottawa as well.

I listened very carefully to some of the comments you made and how passionately you talked about the need for peace. I was very moved by the way you presented it.

You talked about our country and the need for our country to participate. It's something that we don't often talk about as Canadians, but the rest of the international community praises our initiatives, whether it's the land mines, whether it's peacekeeping efforts in various parts of the world, whether it's pursuing head-strong even with the Helms-Burton Act before us and working with a country such as Cuba.

Our message or part of our signal is that we believe that through economic co-operation we can help countries that need to rise and develop, and the bottom line for all is a win-win situation.

Of course, I'm very pleased to see the much-improved trade between our country and your country—I wish, though, that you could export some better soccer players to Canada; I enjoy your brand of soccer—and also the security that is there with respect to our investments, of course with some of the most recent news from Russia on some of the problems we have.

You talked about the need for peace and a new methodology and you talked about the need for Canada to participate. I was wondering if you could be a little bit more specific as to what role you or your government or your nation has thought of that Canada can play, because Canada has played such a diversified role in peacekeeping initiatives. Was there a specific area you had in mind that we might be made aware of through you?

Having a European background, I know the bloc that is developing there as far as the trade agreements are concerned. You indicated that you have good working and trade relations with Europe. I was wondering, when your country is in the process of working with the European bloc, if you have run into any stumbling blocks when approaching any agreements, any contracts, for example, as sometimes we have found here in North America in dealing with some companies or some countries in Europe—understandably so, since they would want to protect their interests as well.

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: We have had no official talks with the guerrillas since 1991. The first time was when they released five months ago the 70 soldiers they had retained. These boys were doing their military service.

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When that was under negotiation, the government and the guerrillas, the FARC movement, sat down not to discuss peace, but at least to discuss the release of the 70 soldiers. The thing went well; the soldiers went back home. The boys went back to their mothers, and trust somehow was re-established a bit—not much, but a bit.

For the first time, guerrillas asked if they could have international witnesses. I wouldn't call them mediators or negotiators, but people of good will. They came. The guerrillas suggested a few. The church suggested a few. We had 13 people there sort of trying to witness what came about.

It was the first time ever that the international community, by the will of the government.... In particular, the guerrillas always wanted to internationalize the conflict. The government agreed to bring the international community into the solution, more than into the conflict.

We asked for—your country has approved it—OAS participation in these elections. We have observers financed by the U.S. and Norway, I think. We have 33 observers from the OAS now. They have already gone home. We have four countries in which the ministers of foreign relations have signed ECLAC. Countries that have had five people there are Mexico, Spain, Costa Rica, and Venezuela, for different reasons.

They are very keen on the effort. The European Union has sent seven ambassadors to critical places. The most critical conflict areas are Urabá, Chocó, and in Caqueta in the south, where many governors, mayors, or candidates have had to withdraw because of the threats of guerrillas.

So we have an international presence now. We have international political organizations and 50 people there to sort of try to watch the process. The OAS qualifies that not as a service exactly, because what is not in question is the electoral procedure, which in Colombia is very transparent. It is one of the oldest democracies in Latin America. These are called “misións de solidaridad democrática”, which is a sort of terminology that means “missions of democratic solidarity”.

So if we survive well, if we don't have any difficulties in the four days during our election, and if we can in time.... We have parliamentary elections on March 8 and potential elections on May 29. So if we were able to have an atmosphere that would allow this government to initiate writing the menu instead of sitting down and eating the meal, then I think the international community will play an important role.

I think the guerrillas have to understand the clear message that the world will not accept threats to our democracy. Colombia may have many problems and difficulties, such as what we had with terrorism, narcotics traffic, corruption, and the presence of guerrillas, but we have democracy. That is something that we share indeed very much, along with the international community as well.

So I'm sure that in the future, not now, when we talk to the guerrillas in a more formal dialogue—it may not even be with us, but with another government—there should be a co-ordinated presence. That is to say, there should be an agreement between both sides on who should be there and who should be the friends of the process. It's not our own unilateral decision, as the guerrilla movements as well will make a decision on that.

So it's a bit premature now. Your Minister of Foreign Affairs has been clear with me that if needed and when needed, Canada could be there in the way it is needed. In fact, your embassy has supported this peace referendum financially.

We really hope to get a massive vote of three million, four million, or five million. I bet we'll get five million voting for peace. If we are able to achieve something as high as that, it will be a clear message for all the violence coming from wherever it comes. Canada has this ability in our hemisphere. It has been not neutral but has had enough distance to allow it to be somewhat neutral. Canada sometimes is not so much involved that it allows for certain possibilities even better than those from other parts of our hemisphere.

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Thank you, sir.

The Chairman: Thank you.

I just remind members that the minister has about eleven minutes with us, and I have about four people on my list.

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: I'm sorry. I will try to be briefer myself.

The Chairman: Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Svend J. Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): I want to join in welcoming the minister.

The minister has referred to a referendum for peace, and has indicated that it's important that guerrillas have to understand a clear message. But with respect, many of the most profound violations of human rights in Colombia have been addressed by international bodies, including the United Nations and the Organization of American States. Pleas have been made to the Government of Colombia—to your government, Madam Minister—to take action.

We recently received very powerful documentation from a group of Canadian churches and trade unionists. As you know, they recently visited Colombia—in fact that was earlier this month—and the human rights situation they describe is frankly appalling. An average of ten people are killed every day as a result of political violence, human rights abuses and attacks. Next is a figure that I found absolutely extraordinary: Last year alone, 253 trade unionists were killed in your country, Madam Minister. In one year, forty of every hundred trade unionists killed in the world were murdered in Colombia. This is devastating.

Specific requests have been made to your government on these human rights violations. My colleague, Madame Debien, mentioned the conviviras. The United Nations Human Rights Committee has asked your government to rescind the decree that authorized the conviviras, as you know. What you're saying is that you're not going to issue any new decrees. That's not good enough. The human rights committee has not said to not issue any new ones; they have said to stop the conviviras in place now.

So I'd like to ask why your government is ignoring that recommendation. Also, what specific steps is your government, the Government of Colombia, taking to dismantle these paramilitary groups?

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: Thank you, honourable Mr. Robinson.

I acknowledge that situation. I'm not here to put maquillage on it, or to not confront that terrible and difficult reality that my country has. I myself was security adviser for the city of Medellín for three years, and many of the youngsters I used to work with and for are not here with us today. The violence has affected all of us.

I was director of communications for the presidential campaign of President Galán. He was assassinated when we were about to win the presidency in 1989. I was secretary general of the campaign of César Gaviria Trujillo in a very tricky situation, but he had to replace Galán.

We have been near violence. Fortunately, we have survived. Many others have not. I would say that violence has become a structural problem in Colombia. I don't think we've had 253 labour unionists killed in my country just because they're labour unionists.

I met with all the NGOs. I said to them that if there is something Colombia is characterized for, it is that we don't have a strong labour union movement, except the petrol union movement. We don't have many workers who are labour union registered as such, but my country still has civil rights, has protected civil rights of workers, and has allowed civil protests and civil differences.

That is a more complex situation. I was Minister of Education just a year ago, and we had about 53 teachers killed. We have 30,000 people dying violently in Colombia each year. So as you say, when we have a violent death occurring maybe while we're speaking right now, it is not occurring because they are labour unionists because they're syndicated.

• 1655

Of course we are confronting serious steps. As I said to you, it is impossible not to have a common solution, a state solution, a solution that involves us all, myself as a civil servant now, but also in the future when I'm not a civil servant. All civil society has to participate in the peace process. I tell you, if there is an abuse on the conviviras, as it appears is happening, the government has stopped for reviewing, because we cannot now have this organization dismantled.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Why not? The human rights committee has—

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: Because they support and help us achieve peace. The whole paramilitary are not conviviras. Unfortunately, the guerrillas have brought violence to so many and have taken the solution into their own hands instead of leaving it in the hands of the state.

Mr. Svend Robinson: So the UN Human Rights Committee recommendation you're not prepared to implement?

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: No, no. Indeed, we have already. As you know, Mr. Robinson, the government has agreed to open a human rights office in Colombia. It's the first office of the Human Rights High Commissioner that is open in the world. We are not prepared yet. We have to review the conviviras. We have to find a way in which to bring the civil society into agreeing with and fully complying with human rights. In that you're right. And if the constitutional court declares the conviviras unconstitutional, of course the government will follow the obligation of our own constitutional code that we should stop the conviviras and see how we can involve civilians to help us find a peace treaty.

The Chairman: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Reed.

Mr. Julian Reed (Halton, Lib.): Thank you.

Minister, welcome as well. I'd like to thank you for being so frank and candid about some of the very serious problems that confront Colombia at the present time. You mentioned being on a learning curve, and we're all on a learning curve in this situation.

You mentioned the press keeping us informed. The press does keep us informed, but the press doesn't always keep us informed about anything positive that happens. Usually the tragedies are the things that get reported. I have often said that no newspaper would report that a thousand safe take-offs and landings at Toronto airport took place yesterday, but if one plane came in with a mechanical problem, it's suddenly front page news.

I'm not trying to minimize the difficulties your country faces, but I was wondering if you could help put that into perspective, because we do share increasing trade. We do have investment in Colombia. Canadian investors obviously feel that they can go there and participate in that economy, so there must be a positive side to this story too. I wonder if you could....

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: Well, that positive side—

The Chairman: We call that a soft lob in this business. It's good.

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: Yes. Well, that is the other side of Colombia. It is so incredible that two countries can be like Garcia Marquez would describe—you know, it's like magic realism to have two countries so diverse and so complex. Violence is not something that.... It would be easier if we just had the guerrillas and the armed forces...against that. But you know, the violences have sort of gathered together, and unfortunately the financing of the guerrillas has been so strong.

Yet there is foreign investment. As you know, Colombia is now achieving almost 5,000 million dollars of foreign investment, which is a record figure, on the privatizations of telecommunications and infrastructure, and the whole modernization of the state, in which you have an important part and an important role. Colombia's economic figures and qualifications in Standard & Poor's or Moody's are a very good qualification, and we hope that attracts investment and attracts those who are interested in the productive and the good Colombia.

• 1700

There are so very few bad Colombians that somehow one wishes that the press—of course it also has to report on the bad things that occur—could show a bit of the other Colombia, the productive part, the working people, the human resources. Fortunately, we've gained some prestige in allocating people, and we're trying to bring people to better levels and to have less inequality in the developing world.

So we hope that we can make some progress and that next time we meet—honourable Mr. Reed, honourable Mr. Robinson, and honourable Ms. Debien—we can bring you better news, news of a less tricky and less critical situation. Maybe we can initiate a peace process in which your country can help us, as you suggested.

I know it's not easy. I know you have a role to play, honourable Mr. Robinson. I understand that. I do too, and one of my roles is to listen to you and to report home on the preoccupations of the foreign community, the international community.

It hasn't been easy, but we are working on it. Believe me, we're not institutionalizing violence. We may have individual cases of abuse, and I hope we have a better system of justice to really punish those who are guilty. But we are working, and I hope I can really truly bring you better news through my ambassador, through your ambassador, or even through myself in the near future or in the next year, sir.

The Chairman: Thank you, Minister. I think you've got about nine minutes to get to the television studio, so I'm going to have to apologize to Messrs. Grewal and Turp.

On behalf of the committee, I would just like to.... And this is going to just astonish you, how wonderful this is, Minister, and perhaps you might like to share this with some of your colleagues in the congress, because this shows the type of work we do. They are reports we did in the last House. One is about the Arctic, which has perhaps less relevance, and one is about child labour exploitation, which you might find of interest.

And on a personal note, I would like to give you this very small token of our appreciation of your visit—

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: Thank you very much.

The Chairman:—and assure you that while our questions are always direct, they come from a belief that we need to develop our relations and from an anxious desire on our part to help you as much as we possibly can. Thank you very much for joining us.

Ms. Maria Emma Mejia Velez: Thank you very much. I know that is true. I thank you for your frankness, because I think it useful for me to hear and particularly to feel how you in the foreign community feel so I can take that message home.

Thank you, sir, very much.

The Chairman: Thank you, Minister.

We're adjourned.