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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, June 11, 2003

1540

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.)

The Chair

Ms. Raymonde Folco

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Marcel Proulx

1545

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Ms. Raymonde Folco

The Chair

Ms. Raymonde Folco

1550

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Ms. Raymonde Folco

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Ms. Raymonde Folco

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Ms. Raymonde Folco

1555

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Ms. Raymonde Folco

The Chair

Ms. Raymonde Folco

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ)

1600

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

1605

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

1610

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gérard Asselin

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gérard Asselin

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gérard Asselin

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gérard Asselin

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gérard Asselin

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gérard Asselin

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gérard Asselin

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

1615

Mr. Gérard Asselin

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

1620

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Gérard Asselin

The Chair

Mr. Yvan Loubier

The Chair

Mr. Yvan Loubier

The Chair

Mr. Yvan Loubier

1625

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Yvan Loubier

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Yvan Loubier

The Chair

Mr. Yvan Loubier

The Chair

Mr. Yvan Loubier

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Yvan Loubier

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ)

1630

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

1635

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

1640

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

1645

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

1650

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

The Chair

Mr. Mario Laframboise

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. John Wright (Committee Researcher)

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Claude Duplain (Portneuf, Lib.)

The Chair

1655

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Claude Duplain

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Claude Duplain

1700

The Chair

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Claude Duplain

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Claude Duplain

1705

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Claude Duplain

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Chair

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Chair

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

1710

The Chair

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Chair

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Chair

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ)

1715

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

1720

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Odina Desrochers

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. John Wright

The Chair

Mr. John Wright

The Chair

Mr. Odina Desrochers

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

1845

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

1850

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Paul Crête

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand (Bellechasse—Etchemins—Montmagny—L'Islet, Lib.)

1855

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Paul Crête

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Paul Crête

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

1900

Mr. Paul Crête

Hon. Gilbert Normand

Mr. Paul Crête

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

1905

Hon. Gilbert Normand

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Paul Crête

Hon. Gilbert Normand

Mr. Paul Crête

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

1910

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

Hon. Gilbert Normand

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Paul Crête

Mr. Michel Guimond

Hon. Gilbert Normand

Mr. Paul Crête

1915

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Michel Guimond

1920

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Hon. Gilbert Normand

Mr. Paul Crête

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. Michel Guimond

1925

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 021

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Wednesday, June 11, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1540)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I'll call this committee to order.

We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment. We're very pleased to have with us as our first witness today—and we have a ton of witnesses this afternoon—Madame Folco, from Laval-Ouest.

[Translation]

Ms. Folco, you have a few minutes.

Ms. Raymonde Folco (Laval West, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair. When you say I have a few minutes, how many is that exactly : 10, 20?

The Chair: You have five minutes for your presentation, which will be followed by questions.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Thank you for inviting me. I will immediately get to the crux of the matter.

I would first like to say that I read the commission's first report and I easily accept the new geographical boundaries for the former riding of Laval West . Given the demographic aspects and movement of people in Laval West, which is the most populous of the three Laval ridings, I fully understand I had to give up a few pieces of it. I think the division that was made is very prudent, and I thank you for that.

Madam Chair, the reason I asked to appear before your committee was because of the name suggested for the former riding of Laval West, namely Île-Jésus. In the few minutes I have left, I would like to tell you why I would prefer the name Laval-les-Îles, which I suggested in the first brief I presented to the commission.

First of all, l'Île-Jésus, like Laval, represents the entire island of Laval, between rivière des Mille-Îles and rivière des Prairies. We are talking about the entire island. If Île-Jésus were to be called the riding of Laval West, that would merely add to the existing confusion. In fact, Laval West is not only the name of a riding, but also the name of a town there. There is Laval-sur-le-Lac here, as well as Laval West, with the bridge to Saint-Eustache.

Since my election in that riding in 1997—I don't know how things were before then—, I have had a lot of trouble explaining to the people of the village of Laval West that Laval West was more than the village, that it also includes the villages of Sainte-Dorothée, Fabreville, Laval-sur-le-Lac as well as part of Chomedey.

We suggested the name Laval-les-Îles precisely to avoid the confusion that reigned around the name Île-Jésus. In fact, in Laval, nothing in particular refers to the western part of Laval. In my view, we should not opt for Laval West either in order to dispel the confusion which, as I said earlier, is already very widespread in the western part of the island. It is for those reasons that I would like the name Laval-les-Îles to be kept, a name that has already been suggested.

Moreover, with all due respect for traditions and the Quebec culture—I think everyone knows I respect them a great deal—, I must say that I do not think l'Île-Jésus has the same meaning for the people living in the riding of Laval West. The latter population is multi-ethnic; although it is made up mostly of francophones and anglophones, it also has Sheiks, Buddhists, Muslims and people of the Jewish faith. That is why I do not think the name Île-Jésus reflects the people of that part of the island.

I realize the selection criteria for a name must be historical, geographical and cultural. I think that the people themselves must identify with a name, and that is why we suggested the name Laval-les-Îles. As you can clearly see on the map, there are islands to the south and to the west, and there are others here; these other ones are becoming increasingly developed. In fact, just this morning, on a community program, I was saying that the banks and the islands are tourism sites that are attracting an increasing number of tourists from Laval, Montreal and the North Shore.

The name Laval-les-Îles would be one that reflects the people of this riding, which is currently Laval West. Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: Are there any questions?

Monsieur Proulx.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Good afternoon, Ms. Folco. In 2002, the name Chomedey had been suggested for that riding.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Did you appear before the commission in November or December? Did you suggest a name, and if so, which one?

Ms. Raymonde Folco: I personally did not appear, but of course I was involved in the matter, as were several people from the riding. The brief presented before the commission entirely reflected my viewpoint. I had struck a committee made up of several people representing the riding of Laval West. That committee did not favour the name of Chomedey.

Geographically speaking, Chomedey is the area around Boulevard Curé-Labelle, which divides Chomedey in two, one part to the west and one part to the east. The western part is in Laval West and the eastern part is in Laval Centre. Dividing the riding that way is a little odd because the people in that part of the two ridings are mainly of Greek origin.

If you keep Curé-Labelle Boulevard as the dividing line and use the name Chomedey, there may be some confusion regarding the people living to the east of Boulevard Curé-Labelle and who are also in Chomedey.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Excuse me, but my question was the following : did your representative or the group that appeared suggest a name?

¹ (1545)

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Yes, it suggested the name Laval-les-Îles.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Was there an immediate reaction on the part of the commissioners?

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Not to my knowledge, no.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): As you know, a member of Parliament can table a bill in the House of Commons for the purpose of changing a name.

I think the commission would be making a mistake by deciding to keep the name Île-Jésus. I have been to Laval and I liked the islands around it. Besides that, the name Laval would allow Canadians to locate it immediately. That is important. As for the islands, there are islands everywhere in the country : Prince Edward Island and so on.

If the commission decides not to change the name, as a member of Parliament, do you plan to submit the name you want yet again?

Ms. Raymonde Folco: You are asking a delicate question. You know me, Mr. Godin. I always prefer the simplest way to do things. I...[Editor's Note: Inaudible ]...before me.

I am not suggesting the name Les-Îles, but Laval-les-Îles. That way, the people would know it is Laval. The name is neutral enough to avoid confusion with Chomedey and Laval West; that is why we suggested it.

Of course, if the commission objected to our suggestion, I would then have to sit down with representatives from the villages around the riding and decide on the next step.

I was hoping I would not have to go that far, to tell you the truth. The simplest thing would be for the commission to accept the name Laval-les-Îles. If that does not happen, we will have to decide what to do next.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In Quebec, the commission did not want any three-part names. So another name could have been suggested, namely Laval-Ouest-les-Îles.

The Chair: But the name Laval-les-Îles does not pose a problem.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Perhaps the commission thinks using the name Laval might suggest Laval as a whole. Perhaps that is why it wants to change it. The fact is, we are talking about Laval West.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: I would like to remind you that according to the commission, the current riding of Laval Centre would become Laval. So considering the representations I made here this afternoon, there would be, starting from the west, Laval-les-Îles, Laval, François-Berthelot and Marc-Aurèle-Fortin—for the white corner—which would be added to Terrebonne on the north shore. So, in two cases out of three and a half, Laval would be included in the riding's name.

The Chair: Before closing, Mr. Proulx, I would like to point out that other members said—and I am sure you are not here for that reason—that it was not necessary to have three and a half ridings or four in Laval, and that it would be preferable to have three and that there be another riding closer to Charlevoix and this region.

Would it be possible for you to have a few more people in your riding?

Ms. Raymonde Folco: I have no objection to the commission maintaining the riding's current boundaries; I think that is what you are referring to. Right at the beginning of my presentation I said I would also not object to the idea of somewhat reducing the population of my riding. Indeed, Laval West is the most populous area of Laval. Over the past two or three years, subdivisions have been added which have increased the population. There is more construction going on in Laval West than in Laval East, for example, which, as you can see on the map, has remained very rural. I am very familiar with Laval East, since I ran there in the 1993 election. I basically have no objection to that.

When we appeared before the commission in November, there was no question of a fourth riding, which is number 68 on the map, and so we presented positive arguments to explain the fact that despite the Rivière des Mille-Îles, which seems to split the riding in two, there are many cultural, socio-cultural and educational exchanges between the two parts of the riding. So I have no objection.

As I already mentioned, I would prefer to see the current geographical boundaries of Laval West to be kept as they are, but the thing that is most important for me right now is the name. If the commission decided to leave Laval as is, I would have no objection either.

¹ (1550)

The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I have two questions. Are there any islands other than those in your riding in greater Laval?

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Of course. I cannot give you the names of all of the islands, but as you can see on the map, there are several islands in Sainte-Rose.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Ms. Folco, if we accepted and recommended the name Laval-les-Îles, would we run the risk of being told the name is not exactly representative of the western part of île Jésus or of Laval and that it causes confusion, since other areas of Laval also have islands?

Ms. Raymonde Folco: I admit there are indeed other areas that have islands, but I think a choice must be made. We have islands that are currently being developed at great speed. In fact, I spoke about that at length with the mayor, Mr. Vaillancourt. The part you see here, where there is the bridge, and several others, are prime examples thereof.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I see. So there are others.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Yes. Excuse me, Mr. Proulx ...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It is just that we are short of time. You answered my question, and I thank you.

Is the place you call the village of Laval West entirely in your riding?

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: André's just getting us the numbers for those additional sections that have been deleted from the riding. Is that deleted from the riding, or added to the riding?

It's deleted.

[Translation]

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Laval West is here, Mr. Proulx.

[English]

The Chair: I know. I just wanted to get the numbers, because if we're going to end up taking one of the suggestions for the people from yesterday, we have to know.

André.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): We didn't have any of these maps during the earlier hearings.

The Chair: Are you suggesting that because he was away one day...?

Mr. Scott Reid: No, these are great maps, the multi-coloured ones. They're much better than we had before. I'm just wondering if they're new, because we've only had them for about a week.

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): No, it depends on the colour scheme we use.

The Chair: André.

Mr. André Cyr: I did a refresh and lost the population count.

You were looking for the number of persons who were removed from the riding?

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. André Cyr: There are two sections where people were removed. There's the small southern part, which consists of roughly 2,000 people in the south section.

The Chair: Yes. Do you have to re-colour it? These are really dense neighbourhoods if they're each census blocks.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: These are new developments.

¹ (1555)

Mr. André Cyr: If we total up the northern and southern parts, it's about 22,000.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So in the north it's 20,000?

Mr. André Cyr: That's correct.

The Chair: Okay.

[Translation]

There are no other questions for Ms. Folco with regard to the name? Thank you very much, Ms. Folco.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

The Chair: Our next witness is Gérard Asselin, the Member for Charlevoix. Charlevoix is a pretty part of Quebec.

Ms. Raymonde Folco: Laval is as well.

The Chair: Yes, of course.

[English]

For Charlevoix, it looks as though we're going to have to look at map 1, because it becomes divided up on the other ones.

Mr. André Cyr: I made sheets of the area of Saguenay--Côte-Nord and of Saguenay--Lac-Saint-Jean with the various population counts for the different scenarios in the actual ridings.

Mr. Scott Reid: Would you show me the map of what is current, because I don't have a copy of it. I know it's dramatically different.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Are we in sheet 2 or Manicouagan?

Mr. Scott Reid: It's the Charlevoix area, yes.

Mr. André Cyr: One moment.

Mr. Scott Reid: That's currently.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes, currently, and it loses the northern part, and that goes into the Beauport—Montmorency—Orléans riding.

Mr. Scott Reid: Île-d'Orléans winds up being inside it.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): We would have to agree on the definition of “currently” in the proposal.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is the current territory?

A voice: Charlevoix.

Mr. Michel Guimond: There is nothing in Beauport--Montmorency--Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: No, that is not what he is saying.

Mr. Michel Guimond: That is because he answered “currently”.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: He gave a response to the proposal.

[English]

The Chair: Monsieur Asselin.

[Translation]

Mr. Gérard Asselin (Charlevoix, BQ): Madam Chair, members of the committee, I am pleased to take the floor. Every 10 years, the commission travels across Canada to suggest a new map for the electoral boundaries to the Chief Electoral Officer, Mr. Kingsley.

A brief was tabled. People, municipalities, chambers of commerce and native communities were consulted. In the riding of Charlevoix, there was unanimous consent to have part of the riding included in the riding of Manicouagan from now on.

Despite that, we appeared before the commissioners, who had decided to sit in Sept-Îles. However, because of the size of the territory and the travelling that would entail, we convinced them to also sit in Baie-Comeau. The three commissioners therefore travelled by plane between Sept-Îles and Baie-Comeau. As they covered about a third of the territory, they were able to see that the territory was huge. I congratulated the commissioners who came to Baie-Comeau.

As I was saying, we tabled a brief. We tried to convince the commissioners that the further you lived from an urban centre and the bigger the territory, the less voters had access to their member of Parliament.

That applies to the current riding of Charlevoix, because between Baie-Comeau and Petite-Rivière-Saint-François, there are already 350 kilometres and 48 towns, including two Indian reserves.

You need two riding offices. We do not get additional budgets, but we must have two riding offices so that people do not have to travel such great distances. However, right now, in Charlevoix, some people drive up to 200 kilometres to reach the member's office and 200 kilometres back, which means a 400-kilometre round trip.

It would appear that part of Charlevoix will be transferred to the riding of Manicouagan.

Manicouagan is 60 times bigger than Prince Edward Island. Prince Edward Island has a special status. It is represented by four members in the House of Commons. Each member represents a population of approximately 34,000.

The changes to the electoral boundaries of my riding, as you can see pretty much everywhere in Quebec, are purely mathematical. We know that Manicouagan is a major riding. If you change Manicouagan, that will have a domino effect on the other ridings.

Manicouagan is 60 times bigger than Prince Edward Island. There is no access to the northern section. There isn't even any road for 600 kilometres. There isn't even a road between the communities and between the Aboriginal communities. But we have just added part of Charlevoix.

The other part of Charlevoix would be added to Montmorency. As for its specific traits, we all know that Côte-de-Beaupré—Montmorency is a suburb of Quebec City. The economy is not the same as in the region of the upper North Shore, where there is a great deal of unemployment, seasonal work and two Aboriginal reserves. If you add that to Charlevoix along with the Quebec City region, you can see that access to community services will be more difficult because of the size of the territory.

As for regulations and respecting the size of ridings in less populous and rural regions, the commissioners should have taken that into account. I was saying that Manicouagan was already 268,000 square kilometres. With this addition, the riding would have 344,470 square kilometres.

If the member is conscientious, if he wants to do his job, if he wants to meet his constituents, it is difficult for him to do so. Whether it is by boat, by plane, by helicopter or by snowmobile and snowshoe, it is difficult for the member to do his work because besides that, he has to go to Ottawa. If we come to Ottawa and are in the riding, how can we meet the people? The people live in parts of the riding that are not only remote, but also impoverished. There are poor sectors.

One of the three commissioners even told me that I lent a great deal of importance to Anticosti Island, which has a population of only 300. Are we to say we will not serve Anticosti Island because there are only 300 people there? Those people pay the same taxes as the commissioners.

º (1600)

I feel every voter should be well represented. The further away you are, and that is the case for a riding like Manicouagan, the less access you have to government services. In Natashquan, besides Gilles Vigneault's home, there isn't much else. There aren't any Human Resources Development offices, nor any for Immigration Canada or Fisheries and Oceans. From Manicouagan, the people go to Sept-Îles to get all the services. They must travel nearly 600 kilometres just to obtain a service or to see their member of parliament.

When the member must travel in this area—

The Chair: Mr. Asselin, you are here to talk about the riding of Charlevoix and not Manicouagan. We have already heard someone else on that issue.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: You have already heard the Member for Manicouagan. I am trying to draw a picture of the situation in the current riding of Manicouagan. The commissioners are aggravating the situation and reducing access by adding part of my riding to that of Manicouagan. I also mentioned Prince Edward Island.

We are just saying, and I would like to insist, that the voters will lose their services. Local issues will be neglected because people will not have access to the member's office.

People go to their member's office to get passports, to discuss problems with taxes and employment insurance, issues related to child tax credits, old age pensions, immigration, fisheries and so forth. The member's office becomes a funnel.

Right now, Charlevoix and Manicouagan have the same problems. There are 350 kilometres between my riding offices. You eliminate one riding to enlarge two ridings that are already extremely large. People do not necessarily have the means to solve their problems, be they related to old age pensions, employment insurance, immigration or taxation. The member's office becomes a focal point for all federal services.

In my view, the residents of remote areas should have access to the same services as those who live in major centres. Right now, the member's office provides those services. Why risk cutting those services?

The members for Manicouagan and Charlevoix, the mayors of Baie-Comeau and Sept-Îles as well as the presidents of the chambers of commerce are aware of the devastating economic impact of combining of the two municipalities in the riding of Manicouagan. They are all vehemently opposed to the idea of including those two industrial towns in the same federal riding.

I have confidence in this committee. For the commissioners, it is a purely mathematical equation. They did not take into account the huge territory, the client services or the services a member must provide to the people. I think the committee must unanimously recognize the extent of the regional territories and make a recommendation to obtain the status quo for the riding of Manicouagan. It is perhaps not quite so for Charlevoix, where we are willing to accept an adjustment in the western sector. I think that for the riding of Manicouagan, given the size of the territory, the current riding boundaries should remain as they are. I also think the specific nature of the ridings must be taken into account as well as the existence of aboriginal reserves between the communities.

There are already territorial negotiations between the federal and provincial governments and the aboriginal community. You will separate aboriginal communities. For example, you separate the Essipit reserve from the Betsiamites reserve and you put it in one riding, namely Beauport--Montmorency--Côte-de-Beaupré--Île-d'Orléans.

You must also consider the economy of Charlevoix, which is based on seasonal work. There will be problems with people leaving. We have reached the point where we think the ridings have to be made bigger because they are not populated enough. It is because there are fewer and fewer jobs and fewer and fewer services. That leads to an exodus of young people and parents. Since families are small, when the parents retire, they go toward larger centres and there is an exodus of the population.

In closing, Madam Chair, I would ask the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec to review its decision to change the eastern boundaries of the federal riding of Charlevoix by transferring the city of Baie-Comeau, the municipalities of Pointe-Lebel, Pointe-aux-Outardes, Chute-aux-Outardes and Raguenau, and the Betsiamites reserve to the federal riding of Manicouagan. If all that is transferred to the federal riding of Manicouagan, this will cause an injustice to the population, because the community will get fewer and fewer services. I think the recommendation that should be made, that the commissioner and the chief electoral officer should implement, is to grant a special status to Manicouagan and Charlevoix, which already covers 350 kilometres and is served by two riding offices.

º (1605)

I have no additional budget, but to provide service to my constituents, I opened two riding offices. That requires staff. Madam Chair, you are a member of Parliament and you know how much it can cost to have an additional office in your riding.

I am ready to answer questions.

The Chair: Mr. Asselin, we heard you speak a great deal about the eastern part of your riding, but what do the people in the west of your riding think? If I understood you correctly, you want to include Baie-Comeau in your riding. Is that all?

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Right now, the eastern boundary for Manicouagan and Charlevoix is Baie-Comeau. Baie-Comeau stays in the Charlevoix sector toward Petite-Rivière-Saint-François, going west. We suggested to the commission ....

The Chair: If you add the RCM of the Haute-Côte-Nord ...

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Right now, the RCM of La Haute-Côte-Nord is in the riding of Charlevoix.

The Chair: No, that is not in your riding. Yes, I apologize.

º (1610)

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Right now, the RCM of La Haute-Côte-Nord is in the riding of Charlevoix.

The Chair: And a little beyond that.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: The commissioners are proposing to transfer the entire RCM of La Haute-Côte-Nord, from the Betsiamites River, Charlevoix East and Charlevoix West toward the Côte-de-Beaupré. That is what they are proposing.

The Chair: On the west side, you do not want to include Côte-de-Beaupré in your riding?

Mr. Gérard Asselin: I have no problem with that. I request that you recommend a special status for the riding of Manicouagan which would keep the status quo, given all these problems. Secondly, if the boundaries of Manicouagan are not moved, then automatically, the east sector boundary becomes Baie-Comeau, as it has been for the past 30 or 40 years. Baie-Comeau was always the city at the boundary.

Going westward, I have some difficulty in justifying the vastness of the territory. My two riding offices are already 350 kilometres apart, but at least, they are accessible to the villages. If the commission decides to add villages...

The Chair: I understand all that, but I am looking for an answer. If the map is currently like that, do you want to add only the Manicouagan part, which is now excluded? Is that the only thing?

Mr. Gérard Asselin: First of all, I request special status for Manicouagan.

[English]

The Chair: Can you just add, André, what those numbers are and we can—

[Translation]

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Secondly, I request that the Charlevoix riding keeps its current boundaries, eastward from Baie-Comeau. It had been proposed that two or three municipalities on the Côte-de-Beaupré side be added, perhaps Saint-Tite-des-Caps and Saint-Ferréol-les-Neiges.

Before considering an expansion of Charlevoix at the expense of another riding... It is already 350 kilometres long.

[English]

The Chair: André, can you get those numbers?

I also have Mr. Guimond.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Your boundaries were shifted on the west side and on the east side. You want the end boundary to be kept as it is now.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Exactly.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We get your point.

What about the western boundary? Would you be ready to accept an expansion of your riding?

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Yes, I agree that it should be extended westward.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Are you ready to accept their proposition?

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Westward, yes, but I do not want any change in the...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Let us not confuse things. Do you accept their proposal regarding the westward direction?

Mr. Gérard Asselin: No. The boundary is...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: No need to discuss the eastern boundary. The matter is settled.

The Chair: And what about the west?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We agree that the west is on that side.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: It is toward Quebec.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, the west is the same.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: It is toward Quebec. We have settled the eastern boundary. As for the west, as I just said, if they want to expand Charlevoix because of...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That is not what we are requesting. And what do you suggest?

Mr. Gérard Asselin: I propose to the commission and to the committee that if the committee wants to base its recommendation on demographics, it should go westward. It will have to stop at a certain point.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: As we had proposed in the March 2003 report.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Then, my riding would start at Baie-Comeau and extend as far as Beauport. That makes no sense.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That was the question I asked you.

[English]

The Chair: I have Mr. Guimond seeking to speak, but before that, André, can you tell us what will happen if we add that section of Manicouagan?

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: In the area given over to Manicouagan, i.e. Baie-Comeau and the surrounding areas, there are 32,000 people. If you put that back in with Charlevoix, the difference will be +26 per cent. So you have to eliminate some on the west side.

[English]

The Chair: Eliminate la Côte-de-Beaupré and see what happens.

We'll turn to Mr. Guimond.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond: With that proposition, my riding becomes...[Editor's Note: Inaudible]. If that happens, I will go sit over there in another chair, because now there is a gap of +26 per cent.

You must realize that his riding was split up. The town with the largest population in his riding, Baie-Comeau, was taken away to ensure a sufficient population in the Manicouagan riding which, for demographic reasons and because of the fact that the city of Sept-Îles has been losing population for the past 10 years, no longer has a large enough population.

º (1615)

Mr. Gérard Asselin: That includes the surrounding municipalities.

Mr. Michel Guimond: It includes the surrounding municipalities, but mainly the city of Baie-Comeau. Mr. Asselin cannot get the population he needs from the north. If there were a town with 62,000 inhabitants in the north, he would get it from the north, but given that the population of the Quebec North Shore is spread out on a strip along the St. Lawrence River, he has to look to the west. That is how his riding gets split up: one half toward Manicouagan and the other half toward my riding of Beauport--Montmorency--Côte-de-Beaupré--Île-d'Orléans.

Mr. Proulx, if the riding were cut off on the west side at Labelle Street in Beauport, there would be a difference of +26%, but then, there would no longer be any Charlevoix--Montmorency riding.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is that your riding?

Mr. Michel Guimond: Partly. Conversely, because of the domino effect, my riding is also split into two. Half of my riding is merged with Charlevoix--Montmorency, and the other half is merged with a new riding called Beauport.

The domino effect will shift the boundaries of five other ridings in Quebec City. For instance, there are 500,000 voters in the greater Quebec region, more than 50% of which will be in a new riding.

All this stems from the sole fact that special status is being refused to Manicouagan. I will not disclose what we said in our secret talks, but we told Mr. Farrah publicly that we seem to agree on a special status for the riding of Gaspésie--Îles-de-la-Madeleine because of the vastness of the territory. If an exception were made for Manicouagan, we would avoid the domino effect.

Mr. Asselin, let us forget what the commission said. If we do not change the current boundaries of the Charlevoix riding, which extends from Baie-Comeau to Petite-Rivière-Saint-François, what would be the gap between its population and the quotient of 96,000?

The Chair: At this time?

Mr. Michel Guimond: At this time.

The Chair: Now, we have -22.28%.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Thus, it is below -25%. So, there would be no need to change 12 ridings. I stopped at Quebec City, but we can also mention Portneuf. We can go as far as Champlain.

Mr. Yvan Loubier (Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, BQ): No.

[English]

The Chair: Interesting, Mr. Loubier says no.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond: It is because he would lose Baie-Comeau to the east.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: All right. Let us stop right there. Let us presume that they give him back the eastern part of his riding. Besides, the MP from Manicouagan told us that it was not a good idea to give this to Manicouagan, if I remember correctly.

Mr. Michel Guimond: That it was not a good idea to ...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That it was not a good idea to give it to Manicouagan, I agree.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Supposing we take the part that was added on to the west, which is to the left, and give it back to Mr. Asselin's riding. Does this not include some population that need not be transferred to him?

Mr. Michel Guimond: Then, there would be too many people in his riding.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is the size of the population in this square?

[English]

The Chair: It's more than 26%, right, André? Plus 26%?

Mr. André Cyr: If we add everything that is added in the west, it's plus 26%. If we start removing Beauport and Île d'Orléans, we can reduce the percentage, which is currently at minus 22%.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We would get back to minus 22%?

The Chair: No, we wouldn't get right back.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That's what I'm trying to find out.

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: No, municipalities are being added on ...

Mr. Gérard Asselin: I have the population count for each municipality.

[English]

The Chair: If you pick up part of the Beaupré but not all of it.

Colleagues, we've certainly heard what Mr. Asselin has said. We understand what Mr. Asselin said. We're going to have to work some of the numbers out after we listen to the other people. And we are under the gun because of votes this afternoon.

[Translation]

Are there any further questions? No. Thank you very much, Mr. Asselin.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Before you leave, let me ask you for some information.

You have taken under advisement the things said by those who tabled documents in opposition. Are your recommendations meant for the chief electoral officer or for the commissioners?

º (1620)

The Chair: It is almost the same, but the commission studies our report and gives us an answer within 30 days.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: You will certainly make some recommendations.

The Chair: In July.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: In July, we should find out whether or not...

The Chair: At the end of July.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: ...my arguments and your recommendations were noted. I think that you have a very important role to play. As for the commissioners, they did not heed what we told them.

The Chair: Next week, you will see what we had to say. But to find out the commission's opinion, you will have to wait for another 30 days.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: All right.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: Afterward, it can no longer be appealed. The matter is settled.

The Chair: No, and the committee thinks that that is not the best solution.

Mr. Gérard Asselin: May we have a copy of your recommendation before you submit it?

The Chair: Yes, it will be tabled before the House.

Mr. Loubier. It is amusing to see Mr. Loubier on the other side.

Mr. Yvan Loubier: Good afternoon, Madam Chair. How are you?

Madam Chair, this is not complicated and will not take long. Besides, I have to sit on the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs later in to the evening.

In the commissioners' report, the name “Bagot” was removed from the name of the riding which was previously called Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot. Right from the outset, in our dealings with the commissioners and the reeve of the Acton RCM, on the Bagot side, there was never any question of changing the riding's name; we only wanted to change the riding boundaries. The reeve of the RCM and myself presented to the commissioners our view that the boundaries should not be changed. We made our point and we won as far as the boundaries are concerned. The riding remains as it was; the territory has not changed. This was quite logical because there are common interests.

The problem is that in the commissioner's report, it says that pursuant to the 1997 order in council, the riding's name is Saint-Hyacinthe, whereas pursuant to the 1997 order in council, the committee is called Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot. I stood for the 2000 elections with the name Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

Why is it important to keep the name “Bagot”? First, because each time I was introduced as the member of Parliament for Saint-Hyacinthe, the citizens of the Acton RCM, who identify with Bagot, were furious and demanded that the name “Bagot” be added. They told me that I must not forget that I am the member of Parliament for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot and not only for Saint-Hyacinthe.

Secondly, there is a historical reason. The first time that Daniel Johnson senior was elected in a provincial riding, on December 18, 1946, it was in the Bagot riding. Daniel Johnson senior became a very important premier in Quebec history. I have great respect for him, as does the population of the Acton RCM. Thus, we must have that name.

The third reason why we should come back to the name of Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot is that we already have the provincial riding of Saint-Hyacinthe. There are two large provincial ridings within my electoral district, including Saint-Hyacinthe. Since the provincial riding is called Saint-Hyacinthe, there would be some confusion between both names. I would be the Member of Parliament for Saint-Hyacinthe and there would be a second Member of Parliament for Saint-Hyacinthe as well, although things were clear before the commissioners forgot to put “Bagot” in the name. It was Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot and this name referred to Daniel Johnson senior, who was a premier.

The people in the riding insist on having this name. We also have a very strong community of interests with the people in the former riding of Bagot. And as I said, this makes a clear distinction between the provincial riding and the federal riding.

Thus, I insist that you strongly recommend that the name of Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot be kept, for all these reasons : the population, the attachment that the Acton RCM has to “Bagot”, its former name. Thank you for your attention. If you have any questions, I will answer them. My case is not as complicated as the case of Manicouagan or Charlevoix.

The Chair: There is no Bagot on the map. Do you mean the Acton RCM?

Mr. Yvan Loubier: No. The county is currently called Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, but the commissioners suggest removing Bagot from the name. If they do that...

The Chair: I understand, but where is Bagot?

Mr. Yvan Loubier: There are two RCMs in my riding, the Les Maskoutains RCM, which includes Saint-Hyacinthe, and the Acton RCM, whose biggest town is Acton Vale. The Acton RCM is associated with Bagot and the Les Maskoutains RCM is associated with Saint-Hyacinthe. The commissioners decided to drop the name “Bagot”, but I do not know why.

º (1625)

The Chair: Are there any further questions?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Did you mention this to the commission?

Mr. Yvan Loubier: No, because at the time, there was no question of changing the name. I think that this error crept into the report, because it says that pursuant to the 1997 order in council, the riding is called Saint-Hyacinthe, but pursuant to the 1997 order in council, the riding is not called Saint-Hyacinthe, but Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot. Thus, changing the riding's name was never an issue.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mr. Loubier, they proposed the simple name “Saint-Hyacinthe” in August 2002. This is not very important, but I would have liked to see the reaction of the commissioners when you suggested this to them. In any case, I certainly do not object to it.

Mr. Yvan Loubier: Thank you for your comprehension, but, Mr. Proulx, I do not understand. We are talking about the 1997 order in council...

The Chair: No, he said that according to the first proposal, the Acton RCM was not included in the riding.

Mr. Yvan Loubier: That is right. We had removed the Acton RCM and replaced it. Given that this change is no longer being proposed, we must keep the name “Bagot”.

The Chair: You spoke before the commission...

Mr. Yvan Loubier: In Longueuil, I said that the Acton RCM should be kept, in other words, to keep the status quo. In my mind, the status quo includes keeping the name Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: They forgot to change the name.

Mr. Yvan Loubier: They kept the name in their proposition, but they included my arguments with regard to the boundaries.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Are there any further questions?

[English]

Loubier gets a prize for being quick. And why don't you...?

[Translation]

Mr. Laframboise.

[English]

Can you distribute these? Do you mind? Thanks.

[Translation]

The riding will eventually be called Trois-Seigneuries.

Mr. Laframboise, you have the floor.

Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): You asked me to submit a recommendation. I drafted it after discussions with my colleagues in the neighbouring ridings. Let me read my letter out to you, Madam Chair, it will be brief because it is only one page. I also adjusted the accompanying chart.

Members of the subcommittee,

I hereby repeat my request that you keep the Saint-Colomban municipality within the Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel (Trois-Seigneuries) riding because the population is attached to this electoral district. Supporting arguments from my colleague Monique Guay were given to you this morning.

You must have received the supporting documents from Ms. Guay, MP for the Laurentides riding, which will become the Rivière-du-Nord riding.

Further, this municipality was part and parcel of my electoral district when the first map was tabled by Electoral Boundaries Commission in September 2002.

You must understand that no loud protests were heard from Saint-Colomban, only because according to the first proposal, the Saint-Colomban municipality was to remain within my electoral district. It has always been a part of this riding, in fact, since 1933.

Let me also submit to you, while keeping regional attachments and affinities in mind, the possibility of transferring the municipalities of Morin-Heights,Saint-Adolphe-d'Howard, Lac-des-Seize-Îles and Wentworth-Nord into the new riding of Labelle. They have natural affinities with the cities of Sainte-Agathe and Saint-Jovite...

Mont Tremblant is in Saint-Jovite.

...in the Labelle riding. The populations of four municipalities travel to these two cities in the normal course of their business. Moreover, they had been cut away from my riding in the fist electoral map tabled by the Electoral Boundaries Commission in September 2002.

Thus, the municipalities of Morin-Heights, Saint-Adolphe-d'Howard, Lac-des-Seize-Îles and Wentworth-North were already, according to the first map, taken out of my electoral district.

In the same vein and while keeping regional attachments and affinities in mind, I also ask for the transfer of the municipalities of Bowman, Val-des-Bois, Mulgrave-et-Derry and Mayo into the neighbouring electoral district of Pontiac. These municipalities have a natural affinity for this riding and the municipalities of the Vallée de la Lièvre which belong to it. My colleague, Robert Bertrand, the Member for Pontiac, also supports my request.

You asked what would happen if I got back the 7,000 or so inhabitants of Saint-Colomban. I annexed a chart to the document which we could look at later. André will probably be able to calculate the population count.

Attached please find a chart of the population and the percentages of difference before and after my proposition. I must note that the Rivière-du-Nord electoral district is in a zone with a rapidly growing population and for this reason its population count will overtake that of the electoral districts of Argenteuil--Papineau--Mirabel (Trois-Seigneuries), Labelle and Pontiac, all before the next readjustment of the electoral map.

The chart shows that I propose that the Rivière-du-Nord riding should have a smaller population, which means it should lose the population of Saint-Colomban. Further, according to the commission's proposal, the Labelle electoral district would have a population of 96,133. If we added the populations of Saint-Adolphe-d'Howard, Morin-Heights, Lac-des-Seize-Îles and Wentworth-Nord, the count would rise to 103,267. This would only make a difference of -0.38% according to the commission's proposal and +7.01% according to mine.

If I got the Saint-Colomban municipality back, then Rivière-du-Nord which had a gap of -6.3% with a population of 90,419, would have a rating of -14% with a population of 82,933. Let me repeat, we are convinced—and the letter that Ms. Guay sent to you says the same thing—that by the next review of the electoral map, Rivière-du-Nord will already have a larger population than that of its three neighbours.

The Argenteuil---Papineau--Mirabel riding currently has a population of 98,467 and a variance of +2.04%. If we include Saint-Colomban and give it back its other municipalities, it will have a population of 98,819 and a variance of -4.75%.

Together with our colleagues and neighbours we did a joint analysis and we tried to respect the population's affinities. Marcel, you can confirm the fact that Bowman and Val-des-Bois, even if these municipalities are part of the Papineau RCM, do more business with Les Collines-de-l'Outaouais RCM and with Buckingham than with Lachute.

The goal is to have ridings that respect social and economic affinities. By transferring Mayo, Val-des-Bois, Mulgrave-et-Derry and Bowman to the Pontiac riding, we ensure that these municipalities are in a riding that matches their interests. The same applies to the municipalities of Saint-Adolphe-d'Howard, Morin-Heights, Lac-des-Seize-Îles and Wentworth-North, which are more closely related to Sainte-Agathe and that sector, and Saint-Colomban would be included in its natural sector, namely Mille-Îles and Mirabel.

º (1630)

This is our proposal. It is also supported by the neighbouring members, Ms. Guay from the Laurentides riding and Mr. Bertrand from the Pontiac--Gatineau--Labelle riding.

The Chair: André, can you confirm these figures?

Mr. André Cyr: I would like to make sure that the municipalities to be transferred to the constituency of Pontiac are Bowman, Val-des-Bois...

º (1635)

Mr. Mario Laframboise: ...as well as Mayo and Mulgrave-et-Derry.

[English]

Mr. Scott Reid: The first settlers were Irish. In the beginning that side of the river was English and the Ontario side was French.

The Chair: In the beginning of time.

Mr. Scott Reid: Not that far back. Then both sides were aboriginal.

The Chair: The dark brown is where the proposed ridings would be and the single line is what the current ridings are?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

The Chair: We have a lot of chopping going on.

Mr. Scott Reid: It's already the oddest-looking riding boundary.

The Chair: I know. Yes.

Monsieur Proulx.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I would like to know to which RCM the municipalities of Saint-Adolphe-d'Howard, Morin-Heights, Lac-des-Seize-Îles and Wentworth-North belong.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: They are in the RCM of Les Pays-d'en-Haut.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: All that is included in the Les Pays-d'en-Haut RCM!

The Chair: Which RCM?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: To which RCM does Saint-Colomban belong?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Saint-Colomban belongs to La Rivière-du-Nord RCM.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mayo, Val-des-Bois, Mulgrave-et-Derry, Bowman belong to the Papineau RCM. This means that, if your riding should get Saint-Colomban back, which is part of the Rivière-du-Nord RCM that makes up the new Rivière-du-Nord riding, we should remove from your riding the municipalities that belong to the Les Pays-d'en-Haut RCM. There, we find a part of the RCM ...

Mr. Mario Laframboise: These are the only municipalities of the Les Pays-d'en-Haut RCM which are in my riding, because most of them are in the riding of Pontiac--Gatineau--Labelle.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thus, it would be transferred into the riding of Pontiac--Gatineau--Labelle, with the rest of the Les Pays-d'en-Haut RCM.

Most of the territory of the Les Pays-d'en-Haut RCM is in the Pontiac--Gatineau--Labelle, except for the municipalities which are in your riding and which would be transferred to the Pontiac--Gatineau--Labelle riding.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: I have some difficulty in following you, because a part of the Deux-Montagnes RCM is in my riding.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: At the western end of your riding, Mayo and the other municipalities are in the Papineau RCM.

Madam Chair, I am worried. At the commission hearings held in Hull on November 7, Ms. Lalande, from the Papineau RCM, said in her testimony that it was very important for the Papineau RCM to be kept in its entirety within one riding. She insisted strongly on that and that was also the wish of Robert Bertrand, who wanted the new Pontiac riding to include the three RCMs in the Outaouais and that the riding boundary be the one which divides the Les Collines de l'Outaouais RCM from the Papineau RCM. We should explain to Ms. Lalande that we do not agree with her idea.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: I have no problem with that. However, as I said earlier, the analysis which was carried out was based on socio-economic factors. I did it that way so that you could fully understand the situation. In theory, I don't see any problem with it remaining in Papineau. I am trying to make you understand what Saint-Colomban means for the people of Saint-Colomban. I could give you the telephone number of the mayor of Saint-Colomban. The problem that the Saint-Colomban representatives have is that they were not given the opportunity to appear before the commission. Given that Saint-Colomban was an integral part of the riding, they did not appear before the commission to say that they did not wish to leave the riding.

I get the impression that you wish to respect the RCMs. I should point out that Mirabel is not a traditional RCM. Mirabel Airport, expropriation and the creation of the city of Mirabel have created a problem. In the Rivière-du-Nord sector, there is an RCM which reflects the areas socio-economic activity. I understand that you wish to respect RCM boundaries, but I want you to understand what is happening on the socio-economic front.

Marcel, I know why the Papineau RCM does not want this change. It is worried about losing this section of the Collines-de-l'Outaouais RCM. However, in reality, Bowman, Val-des-Bois and Papineauville have more dealings with Buckingham. That's just the way it is. That is the reality of RCMs in Quebec. In my opinion, the Collines-de-l'Outaouais RCM should never have been created. That was the mistake. I know we have to live with it, but when the boundaries of federal ridings are being determined, economic ties should be taken into consideration. My proposal is far more realistic in terms of constituents' needs. I am convinced that the people of Bowman and Val-des-Bois would not be up-in-arms if they were to be removed from Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel. In fact, their reaction would be quite the opposite. They would say that, at last, some brilliant individual has realized that they have more ties with the Outaouais than with Basse-Laurentides. That's just the way it is.

º (1640)

[English]

The Chair: Okay.

Scott.

[Translation]

Mr. Scott Reid: I would like to ask a question about the English-speaking minority in the northeastern region of your riding. It is my understanding that in the region between Mont-Tremblant, in the west, and Saint-Jérôme, in the east, there are some towns where anglophones constitute a significant minority or a narrow majority. Two such examples are Barkmere and Morin-Heights. Other towns also have English-speaking communities. I think that it is in the best interests of minority communities in a given region to belong to the same riding.

Do your proposed changes put the minority communities in the same riding or will they be split between the two ridings?

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No, I don't think so. In my riding, in Mulgrave-et-Derry and in Mayo, there are anglophone communities. They go to one of the Western Quebec school board's English schools in Hull. Hull is not in the riding. The English-speaking schools for the area are in Lachute. Lachute offers English schooling for constituents of several ridings including Rivière-du-Nord and Labelle. It is not just about electoral boundaries. The towns mentioned have economic ties with the Laurentians. Morin-Heights is in the Laurentians. Marcel, you are surely aware that some of the most stunning roads lead to the Laurentians.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, but to follow on from Mr. Reid, I think that we can all only agree that English speakers from Morin-Heights, Saint-Adolphe-d'Howard and elsewhere in the region have more in common with the Lachute English-speaking community than the non-existent Saint-Jérôme English-speaking community.

Mr. Scott Reid: I learned French in Saint-Jérôme. I chose Saint-Jérôme because it is an entirely French-speaking town. There are no English speakers there.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The region's English speakers tend to live in Lachute.

º (1645)

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Not anymore. Nowadays, there are English speakers living in many areas.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Be that as it may, you are not going to include them with Mont-Tremblant.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: They go to Labelle, Marcel. You don't understand, they go to Labelle. They don't go to Rivière-du-Nord, they go to Labelle.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, but it's the same thing. Be it Saint-Jérôme or Labelle, there are no English speakers in that part of Labelle.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: No, but there are in...

[English]

The Chair: Just a second. We have the numbers on those areas, do we not?

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The English-speaking communities have more ties with Lachute.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: It is because of the schools. I am talking about their sense of belonging. They have their own communities. Morin-Heights and Saint-Adolphe-d'Howard have their own communities. You are asking me to say which riding they should belong to. All of the English-speaking communities in all of these ridings have ties with Lachute. That is the difference. Everybody in the Labelle and Rivière-du-Nord region has ties with Lachute because it offers schooling in English. It is similar to the way in which people from Mulgrave-et-Derry have ties with the Outaouais.

The Chair: I think that we have all understood your proposal. We have André's number. When we are writing up the report, we will have to keep in mind the other areas of the province where, to help one of your colleagues, we said that RCMs could not be split. We have to be in agreement on everything that goes into the report.

Mr. Scott Reid: Could somebody please explain to me what an RCM is? Is it the same as a county?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It's a regional county municipality.

Mr. Scott Reid: Is it not the same as the old Québec counties? Did these former counties amalgamate?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The provincial ridings?

Mr. Scott Reid: No, I am not talking about ridings, I am talking about counties.

Mr. Mario Laframboise: RCMs are municipalities which are grouped together for administrative purposes. They are regional county municipalities.

Mr. Scott Reid: In Ontario, municipalities are never split between two ridings. The situation is different in New Brunswick. I do not know which is the most similar to Québec.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Ontario's situation is the most similar to that of Québec. There are independent municipalities grouped together, for administrative purposes, under regional governments referred to as RCMs.

[English]

The Chair: It's what they changed from a couple of years ago.

[Translation]

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Madam Chair, when the commission tabled its report, I tabled a report highlighting the plight of interest communities and socio-economic communities. The first time around, the commission decided not to include the Rivière-du-Nord RCM in my riding and to leave the municipalities with the Rivière-du-Nord RCM. Then, they decided to do the opposite, in other words to divide Rivière-du-Nord. The problem is that the municipality of Saint-Colomban never had the opportunity to appear before the commission. That is serious.

I know that other communities such as Morin-Heights we heard by the commission but the people of Saint-Colomban were not for the simple reason that they were part of the riding when the first map was tabled. If you were to take the time to phone the mayor of Saint-Colomban, you would see that the people of Saint-Colomban are very frustrated with the current situation. It is as simple as that.

Thank you.

[English]

The Chair: We appreciate all the hard work you have put into coming back with a second proposal for us, and I can assure you that we have a lot of things to wrestle with before we make our report.

Mr. Scott Reid: I'm just trying to figure out, Mr. Cyr, on the map you have there now, would the colours you're showing basically reflect Mr. Laframboise's proposal?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Scott Reid: So the two yellow ones are okay.

The Chair: So the beige would be what he wants.

Mr. André Cyr: It's the beige. So we've removed this area, Mulgrave-et-Derry and Mayo, to Pontiac. We've returned Les Pays-d'en-Haut, the whole MRC in the northern riding, and Saint-Colomban is in Argenteuil--Papineau.

The Chair: But wait a second, that doesn't solve what we took out of Rivière-du-Nord. This is all about taking out of Rivière-du-Nord. So now Rivière-du-Nord has to be too small.

º (1650)

Mr. André Cyr: Rivière-du-Nord is now minus 14%.

[Translation]

Mr. Mario Laframboise: I want you to understand that the riding of Rivière-du-Nord will undergo the greatest population growth in the whole region. I want you to understand that.

[English]

The Chair: Yes, it may be growing the most, but we can't include anticipated growth. We can sort of fudge on the issue, but you're asking us to make a very dense area, a very small area, minus 14% from the provincial quotient. Whereas we can justify that for massive areas like Roberval and everywhere else, it's a bit hard to justify in a really tight little neighbourhood and say “Oh, well, they're going to become bigger”.

Mr. Scott Reid: But we might be on the verge of doing something. Was there any contemplation of--

The Chair: Adding something from--

Mr. Scott Reid: --Labelle? Labelle is over by 6% right now.

The Chair: And he just made it over more, right?

Mr. André Cyr: No, it's 6%. It hasn't changed. Right now it's 6.5%.

Mr. Scott Reid: The numbers you have at the bottom are the right ones, right? Labelle is at 6.5%.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

The Chair: Is there something else, Piedmont or somewhere else, that should go into--

Mr. Scott Reid: In practice, it would have to be something from....

You can't take Sainte-Adèle, but one of those little ones down there, or several of them....

[Translation]

Mr. Mario Laframboise: Yes, that could work.

[English]

The Chair: Did you check with...? Who's that?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: There's nobody there, because part of Labelle is from Pontiac riding, and the other part of Labelle is from Laurentides.

Mr. Scott Reid: Who is in Rivière-du-Nord?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Now it's Madame Guay. She's in what's called Laurentides. What we get now is the south tip of Laurentides, and the rest of Laurentides is going into Labelle, with a part of Pontiac.

Mr. Scott Reid: So the real question is--

The Chair: We have to change something on that north part. What's the number there, André?

Mr. André Cyr: If we take Piedmont and Sainte-Anne-des-Lacs, that's 5,000. That reduces it to 10%.

The Chair: Saint-Antoine-des-Lac?

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: But do you have a preference?

[English]

The Chair: Yes, but I'm trying to go up the highway.

Mr. Scott Reid: I'd be interested in seeing that.

The Chair: Which ones did you add again?

Mr. André Cyr: It's just up to Sainte-Adèle, right in there.

The Chair: What if you add Saint-Sauveur?

Mr. André Cyr: Saint-Sauveur might leave this stranded.

The Chair: Add Sainte-Adèle, maybe.

[Translation]

Mr. Mario Laframboise: If you add Saint-Sauveur, we will be quite a bit over the limit.

[English]

The Chair: How many people live in Sainte-Adèle?

[Translation]

Mr. Mario Laframboise: With Saint-Sauveur...

Mr. André Cyr: In Rivière-du-Nord, the difference is -1%.

[English]

Mr. John Wright (Committee Researcher): So if you add in Saint-Sauveur, it goes down to minus 9%?

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: Saint-Sauveur, Saint-Sauveur-des-Monts, Piedmont and Sainte-Anne-des-Lacs.

[English]

The Chair: What are you at, minus what?

Mr. André Cyr: I'm at minus 1%.

The Chair: So it's minus 1%.

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: But Labelle goes down to -6%.

[English]

The Chair: It's a much bigger geographic area, so it's less of a problem.

Okay, merci beaucoup.

It's 20 minutes to the bell, folks. I don't know how we're going to do this.

Mr. Scott Reid: I'd like to ask one more thing.

The Chair: You'll have to ask it from André tomorrow.

Monsieur Lanctôt. Where is Monsieur Lanctôt?

[Translation]

Mr. Duplain, is your problem a small one or a big one?

Mr. Claude Duplain (Portneuf, Lib.): It's a big one, but I will be very brief.

The Chair: Your riding is Portneuf?

[English]

You can use map 1, or you can use...map 1.

º (1655)

Mr. Scott Reid: The map of this is shown on page 55.

The Chair: Right, but then it's harder to.... He brought his own map.

Mr. Scott Reid: They designed these maps to make sure that anybody who contested their riding would have their riding on several maps.

The Chair: So what they consulted on and what they delivered to you is quite different.

[Translation]

The initial proposal was entirely different.

Mr. Claude Duplain: The only thing that I ask is that you keep the two maps that I brought separate from each other. They will help you understand. If you place the maps in front of you and follow my explanations, you will gain a good understanding of the situation.

The Chair: I was saying that what was proposed last summer is very different from what is being proposed now.

Mr. Scott Reid: It is another element of the cascade we were talking about.

[English]

The Chair: He's another cascade, yes.

[Translation]

The floor is yours, Mr. Duplain.

Mr. Claude Duplain: In describing Portneuf, I may well answer your earlier question on RCMs.

Portneuf is a rural riding comprising two towns, Val-Bélair and Saint-Augustin. These two towns have become partially urbanized as a result of being situated right next to Quebec City and of their population having doubled. They are now part of ward 6 in Quebec city. I am referring here to the federal riding of Portneuf.

So, the Portneuf RCM is in the federal riding of Portneuf, Val-Bélair and Saint-Augustin are part of Quebec city, and Sainte-Catherine-de-la-Jacques-Cartier belongs to the Jacques-Cartier RCM.

If you look at the map, you will see that Portneuf is the riding over here on the left-hand side. At the time of the first changes, I lost Val-Bélair, and therefore some 17,000 constituents, and was given an area of Champlain. My riding extended as far as Nunavik. We were accountable, therefore, to people in Nunavik which is a 10-hour drive away and cannot be reached by plane.

Our first brief convinced them that this made no sense and that this area should not be part of the riding. However, they have taken this up again and are now citing communities of interest. Everybody spoke about them in the early briefs, and I suppose they want to respect that. In any case, they took Portneuf, and as I already had Sainte-Catherine-de-la-Jacques-Cartier, which is part of the Jacques-Cartier RCM, they decided to give me all of the Jacques-Cartier RCM.

This means that, at the federal level, Portneuf would comprise the Portneuf RCM and the Jacques-Cartier RCM. That could work, but if you look at this map—and this is why I prepared two maps—you will see Shannon. Shannon is practically on the riding's boundary, on the Quebec side. Saint-Raymond and the riding boundary are here. I have had Shannon, Saint-Gabriel-de-Valcartier, Stoneham and Sainte-Brigitte-de-Laval added to my riding. Here you can see the roads for getting there. If you look here, you will see that my riding starts at the Rivière-à-Pierre and Saint-Casimir and goes as far as Sainte-Brigitte-de-Laval.

To visit my riding, I have to leave Portneuf, cross the new Saint-Maurice--Champlain riding, the new Quebec riding and the new Beauport riding. I have to cross three ridings to get to my riding.

I should also add that it is impossible to visit my riding using the small roads. If you look at the map, you will see Tewkesbury and Saint-Gabriel-de-Valcartier, there is no problem here, because the two go together. However, to go from Quebec to Saint-Raymond—which is the main town in the riding, where our offices are—people go via Shannon. People going from Tewkesbury to Shannon don't go all the way around, it's too long. They take the highway, go into town and come back to Shannon. It's quicker that way.

To go from Saint-Hubert, in my riding, to Quebec city, it takes a minimum of three hours if everything goes well and there is no traffic. Yet there is always traffic on the Quebec approach route. This easily adds an hour, bringing the total journey time to four hours. And people want me to provide service...

My only priority is to serve my constituents well. However, I do not believe that to be possible if I have to travel for three hours and cross two ridings.

» (1700)

Portneuf is a rural riding situated near major cities, but we don't have any services. Do you know who provide services in ridings such as ours? The members do.

Everything is computerized in our offices. I have been a member of Parliament for two years; I opened 625 files in my first year and 675 in my second year. When I talk about files, I don't mean answering a telephone call, I mean opening a file because work is required.

Think how many days are required to open 650 files, and that is just the figure for Portneuf alone. Services are required in the Jacques-Cartier RCM but they are difficult to come by. That is why they often call upon the Member of Parliament for Portneuf.

With 650 files in Portneuf, my budget is spread very thinly. I only have two assistants in my riding and one here in Ottawa. My budget is insufficient for a riding where so many services are required. I cannot envisage opening an office in Portneuf, three hours away. I need an office in La Jacques-Cartier RCM.

The whole situation is completely illogical. What is the root of the problem? The problem lies with the riding of Manicouagan, a large riding which ought to provide services. People were only thinking in terms of numbers; by trying to expand this area, everything was shifted along. In fact, everything was shifted along as far as my riding. I am at the outer point of this process.

You may remember that when the first changes were introduced Portneuf was changed and I was given the Shawinigan area. Why? Because the riding of Champlain was abolished because they needed to get rid of a riding. I was, therefore, given this area and changes were made elsewhere.

Now, with the second round of changes, my boundary on this side, towards Montreal, is no longer being changed. They have recovered their riding, but the changes that were made to all the ridings between here and Manicouagan are being maintained. Why didn't they stay as they were before? The only thing that has been accepted is that Manicouagan be a special riding with less people. It really is a special riding: the member of Parliament has to travel great distances and provide services.

In my case, I was given a riding and told that it would have to be changed because population adjustments were required. However, statistics tell me that the population used to total 91,000, then it was reduced to 87,700 and now it is being reduced to scarcely more than 87,400. This means that I am at -9.7%.

The Chair: But there are currently just under 92,000 constituents in your riding.

Mr. Claude Duplain: That is correct. The figure is -9.70%, which makes it almost impossible for me to provide good service. When those people were linked to Charlesbourg, it was direct.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is your recommendation?

Mr. Claude Duplain: That you leave Portneuf and Manicouagan as they are without asking any questions. Previously everyone was satisfied. The commissioners will have to accept special status for Manicouagan.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: But, Mr. Duplain, that implies that no riding in this territory would be eliminated.

Mr. Claude Duplain: But it would not be eliminated. The one you wanted to eliminate is Champlain. It is on the other side in relation to us.

The Chair: There is some question of doing away with a constituency closer to Montreal.

[English]

You'll lose the Laval riding, that's where you'll lose.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: A constituency would be eliminated in your region because Champlain and Saint-Maurice have been brought together.

The Chair: There are four...

Mr. Claude Duplain: Saint-Maurice--Champlain is next to us. As part of the first readjustment, the Champlain region was given to Portneuf so that this riding could be maintained. I was the one representing it. I proved to them that it was ridiculous. As for the riding of Champlain, it was reorganized.

» (1705)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In other words, you are suggesting that Saint-Maurice--Champlain be kept as it is...

Mr. Claude Duplain: I don't want to concern myself with that. I start from Portneuf...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: No, but...

Mr. Claude Duplain: ...and go as far as Manicouagan...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: As I understand it, you're asking us to maintain in its present form Saint-Maurice--Champlain, to the east of your constituency, and to opt for the status quo with respect to the territory eastward from the boundary between Saint-Maurice--Champlain and the riding of Portneuf. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. Are there any further questions? It is closer to the provincial quota than at present.

We will now hear from Mr. Perron, the member for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles. What is the name shown in the book?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): Under the new proposition, it would be Deux-Montagnes and that is why I am coming to argue with you today.

The Chair: You mean to debate, don't you?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Under the electoral boundaries commission's report for Quebec, the city of Sainte-Thérèse would be taken away from my riding. I cannot accept that. Nor can I swallow the name change; I cannot accept the new designation of the constituency as Deux-Montagnes.

Let me give you some background. In 1997, when the riding was created, it was called Saint-Eustache--Sainte-Thérèse. There was a war between the mayors of the region and they wanted to know why preference was given to Saint-Eustache and Sainte-Thérèse rather than Boisbriand and Deux-Montagnes. In order to satisfy everyone, we consulted people and decided to call the new constituency Rivière-des-Mille-Îles because each city is on the Mille-Îles River. It is also a park for recreation and tourism in the northern periphery of Montreal. The name was satisfactory and everyone agreed on the choice of Rivière-des-Mille-Îles.

They want now to take away Sainte-Thérèse from my constituency and rebaptize it Deux-Montagnes, which brings us back to the original problem of 1997, since Deux-Montagnes is the name of a city and Deux-Montagnes is also the name of a Quebec constituency. Moreover, this change would result in a lot of useless red tape. We should therefore continue to call the constituency Rivière-des-Mille-Îles.

The Chair: Mr. Perron, is Deux-Montagnes the name of an RCM?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: It's the name of a town, an RCM and a provincial riding.

The Chair: Is the municipality of Boisbriand in this RCM?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Boisbriand is located in the Thérèse-De Blainville RCM including the city of Sainte-Thérèse. Demographically speaking, there is no problem at all. I am simply asking that the name Rivière-des-Mille-Îles be kept.

Mr. Scott Reid: Doesn't the name of Deux-Montagnes refer to the Lac des Deux-Montagnes?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: There is the Lac des Deux-Montagnes and also the two mountains themselves.

Mr. Scott Reid: They are not located in your constituency?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: No, they are adjacent. That is where the Mille-Îles River begins. They named the constituency Deux-Montagnes because of the Lac des Deux-Montagnes.

The Chair: The commissioners may have been a bit tired when they chose the name Deux-Montagnes because it is not at all Deux-Montagnes!

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What was the name of Rivière-des-Mille-Îles in the past?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: It was called Sault-aux-Récollets in the 1800s.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In what year was the name Rivière-des-Mille-Îles given to a riding?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: It has had that name for ages now. the Mille-Îles River, north of the Island of Laval, and the des Prairies River, south of the Island of Laval, surround this island.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I am referring to the name of the riding.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Oh, you're asking me for how long the riding of Rivière-des-Mille-Îles has gone under this name? Since 1997.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What was its previous name?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: The constituency was called Saint-Eustache—Sainte-Thérèse and before that Blainville--Deux-Montagnes.

» (1710)

The Chair: Is there another completely different name that is better?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: No.

The Chair: The name of a painter perhaps?

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: Or the name of a poet, a patriot, a wise man, an elder, or Perron, why not! They're all fine with me but I prefer Rivière-des-Mille-Îles. Thank you.

The Chair: We've received your message loud and clear. Thank you.

Mr. Gilles-A. Perron: And your recommendation will be that the riding go under the name Rivière-des-Mille-Îles.

The Chair: You are quicker than Mr. Loubier. Thank you.

We'll now hear from Odina Desrochers.

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière—L'Érable, BQ): I sent you copies, in both official languages, of the brief I am tabling today, which I will quickly sum up.

I am not at all satisfied with the proposed electoral boundaries readjustment and I'll explain why to you.

First of all, some historic background. In 1997, the electoral boundaries for Lotbinière covered the entire territory of the RCM of Lotbinière and the RCM of L'Érable. The other important side was made up of the rural sector of the RCM of Bécancour and other municipalities in the RCM of Arthabaska. At the time when you redrew the boundaries using the 1991 statistics, you took into account very specific criteria, such as that of respecting regional boundaries and developing a sense of belonging.

I would also like to point out that the new constituency proposed for the 1997 election also gave the rural population of Lotbinière the opportunity to resume the demographic weight lost in 1968 when it was annexed to the city of Victoriaville.

The proposed division is not justified. As a result of the proposal to split the present territory of my constituency, both the RCM of Lotbinière and the RCM of L'Érable are afraid that they will once again fall under urban domination. The RCM of Lotbinière would account for only 25% of the population in the event of the creation of the new constituency of Lotbinière--Chutes-de-la-Chaudière. As for the RCM L'Érable, it would account for only 28% of the population of the proposed constituency of Mégantic--L'Érable. Both the RCM Lotbinière and L'Érable would both lose out in terms of demographics if the present proposal were to be implemented.

However, I acknowledge that the deviation of the present constituency of Lotbinière--L'Érable is 28%. A realistic and reasonable approach would mean bringing this deviation down to a level of between 10 and 15%.

In concluding my preliminary remarks, I would like to point out that shifting the boundaries of the constituencies on the south shore toward the west will have an impact on the constituencies of two of my colleagues, who risk losing significant portions of their electoral districts. I am thinking here of Bellechasse--Etchemins--Montmagny--L'Islet and Kamouraska--Rivière-du-Loup--Témiscouata--Les Basques.

Before making two or three suggestions to remedy this situation, I would like to point out that, during the public hearings held on December 6, 2002 in Quebec City, elected officials and representatives of the social and economic sector of the RCM of Lotbinière did not feel it necessary to intervene, as they were satisfied with the commission's initial recommendation. However, following publication of the commission's report, I received numerous telephone calls at my two constituency offices and I have received many comments from citizens who are strongly opposed to the commission's recommendations.

For example, the elected officials of the municipality of Saint-Ferdinand, which borders on the current constituency of Frontenac--Mégantic, have informed me that they have no interest in rejoining the asbestos district, as was the case before 1997.

Why should the existing constituency of Lotbinière--L'Érable be split in two in order to deal with the overpopulation of Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, which has a population of nearly 126,000? In the present situation, the status quo is not possible. Other options must therefore be considered. The constituency should also continue to be known as Lotbinière--L'Érable in keeping with the wishes, among others, of the mayors' council of the RCM L'Érable. In October 2002, it unanimously adopted—I have a copy here—a resolution against dropping L'Érable from the name of the proposed electoral district.

My goal is to ensure the creation of a constituency that allows the two RCMs to maintain their rural character, by joining the three sectors of the new electoral district of Lévis, namely Saint-Nicolas, Saint-Étienne-de-Lauzon and Saint-Rédempteur, which are located on the west side of the Chaudière River. These three former municipalities have been working together for several years to develop tools for economic development such as economic development organizations. One of the results has been the creation of the Bernières industrial park. In addition, hundreds of families originally from Lotbinière have settled in these three former municipalities, taking advantage of the economic boom in this sector. In return, the municipalities of the rural sector of the RCM Bécancour could, as recommended by the commission, be annexed to the new electoral district of Richelieu, which includes the industrial sector of that RCM as well as the six municipalities of the RCM Arthabaska, that would return to the new electoral district of Richmond--Arthabaska.

As for the municipality of Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon, it could remain in the future constituency of Lotbinière--L'Érable. With these changes, the total population of the new constituency would increase from 78,000 to 88,000.

» (1715)

[English]

The Chair: The translator sounds like Bugs Bunny. You don't really sound like Bugs Bunny, it's just going very fast.

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers: The three new sectors of Lotbinière--L'Érable would have populations ranging from 24,000 to 31,000, thus creating an interesting dynamic.

In closing, I would like to ask the members of the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment to reject the recommendation contained in the March 28, 2003 report given that it does not reflect the recommendations expressed by the socio-economic organizations and representatives of Lotbinière--L'Érable, nor the principle of recognition of the agricultural and rural identity of the constituency, as stipulated in section 15 of the Electoral Boundaries Review Act.

By adding this proposal and accepting the one I have just made, the members of the subcommittee would be protecting the only federal electoral district in Quebec that is truly agricultural and rural in identity.

I apologize, Madam Chair, but I knew that a vote was coming up. That is why I speeded up the process.

The Chair: That's very kind of you.

Let's now begin our questions.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Is it clear?

The Chair: Yes, it is clear, but is it possible? That is another matter.

Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: As far as the name goes, we understand your position. Can you sum up in 30 seconds what the effect would be in geographical terms?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: The constituency would include the RCM L'Érable, the RCM Lotbinière as well as three municipalities of the present city of Lévis located west of the Chaudière River.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is the name of the municipalities?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Saint-Nicolas, Saint-Étienne and Saint-Rédempteur.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Saint-Nicolas, Saint-Étienne and Saint-Rédempteur?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you.

The Chair: Any further questions?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes. Have you done the calculations? Do you know what the population of this territory is?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: It has a population of 87,629 and an 9% variance.

[English]

The Chair: But what's left of Mégantic--L'Érable?

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mégantic--L'Érable is the proposed constituency bringing together L'Érable and Mégantic, which is in the present constituency represented by Mr. Binet.

[English]

The Chair: What would be left in terms of a population, André? It's a big riding, right?

Mr. André Cyr: I'll create.... Just a moment.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is your proposal that the part of Lévis that you did not mention would be included in the constituency of Lévis--Bellechasse? There is a part of Lévis--Bellechasse that would go to Lotbinière--Chutes-de-la-Chaudière. You say that you want to take three of the municipalities belonging to it. Since there is a part left, I suppose that it would go to Lévis--Bellechasse.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: The remaining part would go to Lévis--Bellechasse.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Would you put this part back into Lévis--Bellechasse?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Yes. Setting the boundary farther east could solve the problem facing two of my colleagues, but I'll let them explain their position.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Would you mind repeating what you said?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Shifting the boundary east would solve the problem of two of my colleagues, facing similar problems.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I don't understand where you would be shifting the boundary east.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Right now we're talking about Lotbinière--Chutes-de-la-Chaudière.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: We're talking about the entire former RCM of Chutes-de-la-Chaudière. The riding is moved and becomes Lévis--Bellechasse. That means Mr. Normand loses sizeable chunks of his riding.

» (1720)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I see.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: That is what I was referring to when I mentioned the eastern part.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I see, thank you.

The Chair: Are the quotients for Lévis--Bellechasse and Beauce higher than the provincial quotient?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: The provincial riding of Lévis is divided into two constituencies.

The Chair: No. At the present time in Lévis--Bellechasse there is a surplus deviation of 6 per cent and in Beauce, the deviation is also almost 6%. The deviation in Mégantic--L'Érable and Lotbinière--Chutes-de-la-Chaudière is smaller. It will be equal if the change is made.

Mr. André Cyr: In the municipalities of Saint-Nicolas, Saint-Rédempteur and Saint-Étienne, there are 32,000 people. With the RCMs of Lotbinière and l'Érable this would add up to a constituency of almost 88,000 people, as well as a deviation of -9%.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: You also add Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: How many are there in RCM L'Érable and how many in RCM Lotbinière?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: I can give you an answer because I have the figures. RCM Lotbinière has 26,851 people and RCM L'Érable has 24,021 people.

[English]

Mr. André Cyr: The figure 26,851 was for...?

The Chair: That was L'Érable.

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: To that I add Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon, is that correct?

[English]

The Chair: I almost missed the vote yesterday, so we have to pack up.

[Translation]

Mr. Odina Desrochers: With a population of 4,857.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Why Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: It is an adjoining municipality.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I understand that, but it is not part of either RCM L'Érable...

Mr. Odina Desrochers: At the present time it is part of my riding and its inhabitants would like to join the riding of Beauce.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So we would be adding Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon.

The Chair: And a small part of Beauce would join Mégantic--L'Érable?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: It is very complex. It is a municipality that has been bounced around a lot.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What is the population of Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Four thousand eight hundred and fifty-seven.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What would the population of the constituency be then?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: It would be almost 88,000.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So, Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon was already included.

[English]

The Chair: André, as long as you're clear on what's being requested, then we can look at the four and get the numbers on the four.

Mr. André Cyr: If I add the rest of Lévis.

The Chair: To Lévis--

Mr. André Cyr: Lévis, that brings us to 38% above the quotient.

The Chair: A piece of Bellechasse has to come back down to Beauce, and Beauce has to go to Mégantic. Can you just give us exactly what the four ridings would be?

Mr. Odina Desrochers: Mine? The new one?

The Chair: Yes. If you're going to propose--

Mr. John Wright: It's written down.

The Chair: It is written down. We'll figure out a map, we'll check with you if it's the right map, and you'll check here.

Mr. John Wright: His proposal is written down; it's over here.

The Chair: It's written down as a proposal, but if he's going to make a change to the other ones then we have to look at what the four ridings would be now, and André has to give us the numbers on the four.

Mr. John Wright: I understand that. I'm just making sure that what you're asking for is simply on his proposal, to do the numbers on his proposal and do the calculations all around it.

The Chair: Yes, but if his proposal doesn't include what happens with Bellechasse and Beauce and Mégantic, then we have a problem.

Mr. John Wright: That's what I mean by doing the numbers all around it. I'm just saying working on this, with nothing else moving except what he's doing, and then looking to see how it affects everyone.

The Chair: All right.

[Translation]

Thank you.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: I have all the documents if you would like to see them, Madam Chair.

[English]

The Chair: Can we make sure we have all his documents?

Okay, we're adjourned.

» (1724)

¼ (1844)

The Chair: The meeting will resume.

[Translation]

We will first hear Mr. Crête, followed by Mr. Normand and Mr. Lanctôt.

Mr. Paul Crête (Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, BQ): The important element of my proposal assumes that you will agree to accept the riding of Gaspé--Îles-de-la-Madeleine as an exceptional riding, that is a riding with a deficit deviation in excess of the 25% as set out in the act. That is the case for the Îles-de-la-Madeleine constituency in Quebec. Mr. Farrah came to make a presentation to you and you may have perhaps given consideration to this approach.

You will see the maps on the back of my presentation. You will see what exactly my proposal represents. You can also see that it respects the territories of the RCMs. That may be the best way for committee members to follow my presentation.

The purpose is to maintain four ridings in eastern Quebec and to respect the limits of the regional county municipalities. The riding of Îles-de-la-Madeleine is the fourth listing indicated in my objection document. It includes RCMs Avignon, Îles-de-la-Madeleine, Rocher-Percé and Bonaventure, that is a total of 65,629 people as based on the last census. That would make it possible to have three other ridings: a riding including RCMs Côte-de-Gaspé, Haute-Gaspésie, Matane and Matapédia, the riding of Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis and the riding of Kamouraska--Rivière-du-Loup--Témiscouata--Les Basques. The riding that I represent at the present time would remain the same, the riding of Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis would remain the same, the one including the Magdalen Islands would have a deficit deviation in excess of that allowed in the act, and there would be a riding for the Gaspé Peninsula as a whole including Côte-de-Gaspé, Haute-Gaspésie, Matane and Matapédia.

I do not know whether you have been able to follow my points.

The Chair: Now, you are ...[Editor's Note: Inaudible].

Mr. Michel Guimond: Watch out for ... [Editor's Note: Inaudible].

[English]

The Chair: Sorry, I meant to say “purple”.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: Is it the table proposed by the commissioners that we have here?

The Chair: No, it is...

Mr. André Cyr: Yes. The coloured lines represent the proposed boundaries and the brown lines represent the present constituency boundaries. Your constituency is here.

The Chair: That is your present constituency.

Mr. Paul Crête: Yes. Under my proposal, it would remain the same. Likewise for the riding of Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis, it would stay in its present form rather than being adjusted to the commission's proposal. The Gaspé Peninsula would consist of a riding made up of RCMs Côte-de-Gaspé, Haute-Gaspésie, Matane and Matapédia.

The Chair: We understood that. We have already heard representations on this point. Right now you are at the centre. Where do you live?

Mr. Paul Crête: I live in La Pocatière, at the western extremity of RCM Kamouraska and my constituency.

The Chair: For the third constituency, there is another member. That is the problem.

Mr. Paul Crête: In the commissioners' proposal, half of my present constituency is added to the constituency of Rimouski--Témiscouata and the other half would be joined to RCMs Montmagny and L'Islet, which are now part of the riding represented by Mr. Normand. According to the representations made last fall before the commissioners, the purpose was to ensure that there were four ...

¼ (1845)

The Chair: There is Mr. Normand and also Ms. Tremblay. That is the problem.

Mr. Paul Crête: In the fall, a proposal was made that there be four ridings in eastern Quebec. The commissioners gave partial consideration to this proposal; they stretched the fourth riding out as far as RCM Montmagny and L'Islet. My position is that in order to have four ridings in the east, one must be willing to accept at least one exceptional riding, namely the constituency of Gaspésie--Île-de-la-Madeleine, because of the particular nature of the Magdalen Islands. If you need precedents or examples, I would note that it is a recognized exception in Quebec. If you go along with that, then you can have three ridings whose deficit variance will be lower than 25%. That is what I am proposing here.

The Chair: Are there any questions?

Mr. Paul Crête: You all seem quite skeptical.

The Chair: Yes, and rather tired. We've heard a lot about the situation in the Gaspé Peninsula, the Magdalen Islands and Matapédia--Matane. That is one thing. The next two ridings that will be the subject of representations will be Rimouski--Témiscouata and Rivière-du-Loup--Montmagny. You say that if there are four of them, there will be no problem.

Mr. Paul Crête: No, there is no problem if there are four of them but I don't want five. What I want is four ridings but I also want the boundaries of my constituency to be the same as they are at the present time. I don't want it to include two regional county municipalities that are now part of Mr. Normand's riding. In order for us to keep the present riding as well as meet a certain number of criteria, I am suggesting that the riding containing the Îles-de-la-Madeleine be considered an exceptional riding where the deficit variance is in excess of 25%.

Mr. Yvon Godin: [Editor's Note: Inaudible]

Mr. Paul Crête: Well, they are on the table.

[English]

The Chair: He wants the status quo, but a different cut on the four ridings.

The current ridings there are—

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: On the back of my proposal, you will find my breakdown according to RCMs.

[English]

The Chair: Bonaventure-Gaspé-Îles-de-la-Madeleine-Pabok is minus 28.257%. Rimouski right now is minus 25.8%. Your riding, Kamouraska, is minus 10%, so you're not the worst offender. The next one is Bellechasse, at minus 14%.

We certainly heard convincing arguments to let the last two be very small, but we never thought we were going to have to keep rewriting all the way down the coast there.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: No, what I am saying is that for there to be four ridings in the east ending at La Pocatière, then one of them must have a deficit variance higher than 25% and it is my opinion that the Magdalen Islands deserve special treatment. The remainder can be adjusted accordingly while at the same time respecting regional county municipalities. That is my proposal.

The Chair: RCM Les Basques is now split in two.

Mr. Paul Crête: Yes. In the commissioners' proposal, half of the riding that I now represent, that is RCM Les Basques and Témiscouata, would come under Rimouski--Témiscouata and Rivière-du-Loup and Kamouraska would be placed in the riding of Rivière-du-Loup--Montmagny. In the commissioners' initial proposal, there was one fewer constituency in eastern Quebec. After hearing representations, the commissioners decided that they would keep four constituencies in the east but they would extend them as far as Montmagny and L'Islet. I think they have gone some distance but they can go a bit farther by allowing the boundary to be set at La Pocatière and to consider the riding including the Îles-de-la-Madeleine as an exceptional riding.

¼ (1850)

[English]

The Chair: You actually can't see where they've divided the MRCs. According to this map, it looks like the MRCs are all kept together.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: They respected them in their entirety and that is what I would like.

[English]

The Chair: You just want to keep it.... Okay.

Mr. Proulx.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In your presentation on the population, in your last calculation, you came up with a figure of 65,629. Where is the mistake with respect to the municipality of Îles-de-la-Madeleine? Is it 11,320 or 13,201?

Mr. Paul Crête: I am sorry, I have to add this up. It is 11,201 for the Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In that case, for you, it must be 13,201. The first figure is probably too much.

Mr. Paul Crête: Yes, excuse me.

[English]

The Chair: Yes, the population of Burlington just moved to Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: The total is right.

[English]

The Chair: Maybe just in the summer.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: One last argument.

In Quebec there is an administrative region called the Bas-Saint-Laurent ending at La Pocatière and including eight RCMs. As a result of the split made by the commissioners, the riding of Rivière-du-Loup--Montmagny would overlap two different provincial administrative regions and would therefore have to deal with two different offices of Economic Development Canada and two different employment insurance offices when at the present time it is uniform.

The Chair: La Pocatière is just south of the river.

Mr. Paul Crête: La Pocatière is the last municipality on the west side of the Kamouraska RCM. That is where I live.

The Chair: In the first document, it is located in Montmagny.

Mr. Paul Crête: Yes.

The Chair: Are there any other questions?

Mr. Crête, you will now hear Mr. Normand. Perhaps he will have some questions for you.

Hon. Gilbert Normand (Bellechasse—Etchemins—Montmagny—L'Islet, Lib.): My presentation is along the same lines as Mr. Crête's. If everything is to work properly, there must be an exception made for the Gaspésie--Îles-de-la-Madeleine riding, so that the gap is greater than 25%.

As Mr. Crête explained, the commissioners' proposal divide my riding. The current riding, Bellechasse-Etchemins--Montmagny--L'Islet brings together the four RCMs which bear the same name. The commissioners' proposal, the Montmagny and L'Islet RCMs are combined with the Kamouraska and Rivière-du-Loup RCMs, while Bellechasse and Les Etchemins are combined with Lévis.

Since this proposal had not been originally put forward, people from the region had no chance at all to express their views. The commissioners' initial presentation was almost unanimously approved, except by a small group of the Kamouraska-L'Islet Chamber of Commerce, who made a different presentation at Rivière-du-Loup. As Mr. Crête explained, the major problem is that the Lower St. Lawrence region begins at La Pocatière, and that the Chaudière-Appalaches region also ends at La Pocatière.

What we end up with here, then, is a riding that is astride two administrative regions. The federal government—Human Resources Development Canada—does not have the same EI criteria for those two regions. Economic Development Canada does not have the same development criteria for those two regions. Things are even worse at the provincial level, with much greater differences in development criteria among the regions, even with respect to research, education and industrial development.

This would all make it a rather odd, hybrid riding. We all know that governments tend to go for the lowest rather than the highest common denominator, so I asked HRDC and EDC to guarantee that Montmagny--L'Islet would have the same advantages as the Lower St. Lawrence, but nobody wants to make that commitment. And I really do not want to have to fight with the provincial government.

My fear is that the tendency would be to reduce the benefits that Rivière-du-Loup--Kamouraska now has to bring them down to the same level as Montmagny--L'Islet, rather than giving Montmagny--L'Islet a boost to bring it up to the level of Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup. This would all make the riding almost impossible to manage.

As Mr. Crête was saying, the EI office for La Pocatière is in Rivière-du-Loup. The EDC office for La Pocatière is in Rimouski, while the other one is in Quebec City. So half the riding will be with Rimouski and the other half with Quebec City, where the criteria are different. So people will start moving around within the riding to get better benefits.

When we look at the taxation picture, things do not improve. The provincial government will give a 10- year tax exemption to an industry that settles in La Pocatière, but that industry would not get the exemption if it settled in Saint-Jean-Port-Joli or Montmagny. This is absolute nonsense, particularly since people had no opportunity at all to express their views. There would have been an uproar if people had the opportunity to make themselves heard. The whole thing makes no sense.

I know that Mr. Desrochers had made a proposal along the same lines. He agreed to receive a few municipalities from Lévis. I know that Lévis is much too big. The town of Saint-Henri, which is now in the Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière riding, could become part of Lévis-Bellechasse, since Saint-Henri is already part of the Bellechasse RCM. In fact, at present it is the only municipality in the Bellechasse RCM which is not in the riding. I believe that Saint-Henri has a population of 3,800 or 4,000 people.

¼ (1855)

[English]

The Chair: André, can you tell us how many people are in that dark-blue part of the map with the number 22 on it?

[Translation]

Hon. Gilbert Normand: I would like to raise one last point. The Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière riding is in the midst of an election. The people there have absolutely no one to defend them and present their views.

The Chair: They have the whip.

Mr. Paul Crête: Who?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The whip.

Mr. Paul Crête: They have the Bloc's whip, because it is a BQ riding. When a member resigns or leaves, the party whip represents the riding. In Témiscamingue, it's the Speaker of the House.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: The population of the current riding of Bellechasse--Etchemins—

[English]

The Chair: How many people are there?

Mr. André Cyr: It is 39,600.

The Chair: So haven't we just created another riding, because didn't somebody want a piece of this beside it? Didn't someone want to add somebody to make them 38 above?

It was Odina.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: Odina's proposal was along the same lines as ours. If you agree to do what we ask for Gaspésie--Îles-de-la-Madeleine at the other hand, this whole block could remain as it was, and we could avoid the domino effect.

[English]

The Chair: André, so what then would the new riding be that Odina and these guys are suggesting?

Who had Île d'Orléans?

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond: L'île d'Orléans is on the north shore.

Mr. Paul Crête: It has to be on this side, because the bridge is on that side.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, it's a bit long if you have to go around.

[English]

The Chair: Wow, we could probably get a new bridge built. It might be simpler than solving redistribution.

½ (1900)

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: It's already been refused, anyway.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: I would be ready to accept Saint-Henri. I don't think anyone would be against that idea, since Saint-Henri is already part of the Bellechasse RCM.

Mr. Paul Crête: All we would be doing is keeping the RCMs consistent.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: If we put Saint-Henri in Lévis--Bellechasse, everyone would be happy and it would solve my problem. Saint-Henri is not part of metropolitan Lévis.

[English]

The Chair: So then we just cut the riding in a bit. Right?

We have one riding here, and another riding there; it is just a different set of ridings. You take this whole zone and make it into two ridings, but just have different splits.

[Translation]

Who is the member for Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière?

Mr. Paul Crête: There isn't one right now. There will be an election this Monday.

The Chair: And you are the Member for Bellechasse. Mr. Desrochers said that the area just west of Lévis should be a part of Lévis, and that you should have Lévis and a part of Bellechasse. That means there are two RCMs involved, but there is another—

Mr. Paul Crête: If we keep the Lévis-et-Chutes-de la-Chaudière riding more or less as it is today, then this would work.

Mr. Michel Guimond: If we move the town of Saint-Henri, what kind of percentage do we end up with?

[English]

The Chair: The give is down to Mégantic. Who is the member for Mégantic?

[Translation]

Mr. Gilbert Normand: Mr. Binet.

[English]

The Chair: So it's really a question of cycling the four around.

Monsieur Crête, Monsieur Normand, and André, this is like one of the ones Scott proposed.

So you need a little bit of

[Translation]

Lotbinière--Chutes-de-la-Chaudière in Lévis--Bellechasse, a small part of Lévis--Bellechasse in Beauce, and a small part of Beauce in Mégantic--L'Érable.

Mr. André Cyr: But which part? Before the vote, we brought down the percentage in Mégantic--L'Érable, which is just Mégantic now. It is 35% under the threshold.

The Chair: I have a proposition to make.

There are you two, then there is Mr. Desrochers, Mr. Binet and Mr. Drouin; that makes five of you. Talk this over together before we meet tomorrow, and come back to us with the best proposal for those five ridings.

Mr. Paul Crête: Mr. Desrochers' and our two proposals seem acceptable, and would not create a domino effect elsewhere. If we leave my riding, Mr. Normand's and Lévis--Chutes-de-la-Chaudière more or less in the form they are in today, and apply Mr. Desrochers' proposal to Lotbinière, we wouldn't have to change anything in the Beauce.

The Chair: Yes, we could leave Beauce as it is now.

So perhaps you could come up with a proposal for just the three ridings in question.

Mr. Paul Crête: Couldn't we deal with that right now? When we spoke—Mr. Desrochers, Mr. Normand and myself—we all seemed to agree, and our idea would work well with Mr. Desrochers' proposal.

[English]

The Chair: Mégantic-L'Érable doesn't have a problem then.

Mr. André Cyr: It does have a problem. It is minus 35%, because of the changes you made just before the break.

The Chair What did he take out of it?

Oh, he picked up some of L'Érable.

½ (1905)

[Translation]

Hon. Gilbert Normand: Because Mr. Desrochers would get Saint-Nicolas and Saint-Rédempteur.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Saint-Nicolas, Saint-Étienne, Saint-Rédempteur, Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon—

Some honourable members: No, not Saint-Lambert.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, he had it added, and it has a population of 4,857.

The Chair: Mr. Desrochers' proposal affects Mégantic--L'Érable.

Mr. Paul Crête: I don't know that area.

The Chair: You five will have to work together and come up with a better proposal. We have to finish this tomorrow.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Odina suggests that his riding include the L'Érable RCM, the Lotbinière RCM, as well as Saint-Nicolas, Saint-Étienne, Saint-Rédempteur and Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon. This would bring the total population to 87,629, or 9% under the threshold. But to achieve that, he breaks up a part of Gérard Binet's riding.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: No, because those municipalities are in Lévis, not Mégantic. Saint-Nicolas, Saint-Rédempteur and Saint-Étienne are in Lévis.

[English]

The Chair: Guys, let me do this fast in English.

The committee was quite sympathetic to the whole issue of leaving very big exceptions in the Gaspésie—

[Translation]

Hon. Gilbert Normand: Lévis and Chutes-de-la-Chaudière must be at 106,000.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Normand, the committee was very sympathetic on the issue of the Gaspésie; we understood that there's an island, blah, blah, blah.

So if we're going to make a proposition, we can certainly say to the commission that we think there's something here; we think there's this possibility or that possibility. But it's our opinion that they are also going to be pressed for time, so if you can come up with a map for the five—with a little here, and a little there—and we can make the numbers work, we think you then have a better possibility of getting it approved.

If we just tell them to fix it, do this and do that, or look at this and that, you're still not getting the consultation from the people.

So if you have something, and you can bring it to us tomorrow, that would be great.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: My proposal is about the same as yours; we agree that the Magdalen Islands are special and that with our proposals the three other ridings in eastern Quebec can remain as they are. I think we can leave things as they are there, as well as in Mr. Normand's riding, because the changes will come beyond that.

[English]

The Chair: But I think you are going to have to—

[Translation]

Hon. Gilbert Normand: I think Odina played a trick on us.

[English]

The Chair: I think you're going to have to solve the problem that Odina brought and that the others are going to have. You're going to have to get the other four into the right quotient, because they're not in the right quotient now—if we accept your proposals.

[Translation]

Hon. Gilbert Normand: Well, get rid of Lotbinière.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I just want to clarify something....

[Translation]

The Chair: But there are people there.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: If we work with what's on the eastern side, including Lévis, and leave Lotbinière alone, we can solve your problem.

Mr. Paul Crête: I think that would work.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: Including Lévis?

Mr. Paul Crête: By maintaining the status quo in Lévis-et-Chute-de-la-Chaudière, or by accepting the riding proposed by the commissioners?

Hon. Gilbert Normand: What is the population of Lévis-et-Chute-de-la-Chaudière? It's big.

[English]

The Chair: It's 30% above the quotient.

[Translation]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: The current population is 125,848.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: It is 30% above the provincial quotient.

The Chair: Yes, 30 per cent.

Mr. Michel Guimond: So the riding could be cut a bit. Saint-Henri could be brought into Bellechasse, and another part of the riding could be added to Lotbinière. But Saint-Lambert-de-Lauzon should be left alone.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: A part of it could go to Lotbinière without affecting the L'Érable RCM. If we leave the L'Érable RCM alone, then we leave Mégantic--L'Érable—Mr. Binet's riding—alone. Do you see what I mean?

[English]

The Chair: So I'd really like you to get a piece of plastic and redraw this map. We'd like to see it tomorrow, and are very sympathetic to solving your problem. But you have to give us the exact map, which you can do tomorrow morning.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: I'm going to say this one last time. I think we can solve this problem with the five ridings, including Mr. Normand's riding, with the proposal on the Îles-de-la-Madeleine. We don't need anything else. We don't have to discuss anything else with anyone.

½ (1910)

[English]

The Chair: I'm thinking that after Matepédia--Matane, you need to solve from the current riding onward.

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: Here is my proposal.

[English]

The Chair: André, can you show me that map?

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: There are ridings that have a population of 74,000. Rimouski-Neigette-et-la Mitis has a population of 71,600, but small adjustment could be made with Les Basques. My riding has 86,000 people. Only the riding with the Magdalen Islands would derogate excessively from the quotient. The three others would be within 25%, as would Mr. Normand's riding.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: If we added Saint-Henri, I would be at -8 per cent.

Mr. Paul Crête: I would be quite happy to speak to other people, but you know how complicated this is.

The Chair: Yes, it is, but it is very complicated for us as well.

Mr. Paul Crête: With our proposal on the riding that would include the Magdalen Islands, we can go right up to them without a domino effect. And if there is no domino effect...

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Amongst yourselves.

[English]

The Chair: But there is a domino effect, because we already have too big a riding in Lévis....

Monsieur Guimond.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond: To solve the problem of Lévis' high population, Mr. Normand would take part of Saint-Henri-de-Lévis. The people there are not worried about overpopulation in Lévis, or the problem in Lotbinière and Mégantic. There are other stakeholders there. With respect, Madam Chair, you are putting this question to these two members, to Ms. Tremblay, who is ill, to Georges Farrah and Jean-Yves Roy—but they are concerned with Matapédia--Matane, not Lotbinière.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: We can deal with that now.

Mr. Michel Guimond: We should not ask Odina Desrochers and Gérard Binet to take part in their discussions.

Mr. Paul Crête: If you need to see them again to deal with Lévis, they will have to come up with a proposal.

[English]

The Chair: I don't know if you were here or not, but we already had a new redraw on the last two on the Gaspé. They included exceptions, and those two members agreed to the new maps.

So now you're saying that the guy from Matapédia--Matane has already agreed with Georges Farrah on the new thing.

A voice: Yes.

The Chair: No, but he's saying it will affect them.

So I'm saying that after the border of the current Matapédia--Matane, you have to look at the redraw from there on westward.

On Rimouski, we didn't have an objection from Mrs. Tremblay—although I appreciate she is not well.

[Translation]

Mr. Michel Guimond: So for you three—including Ms. Tremblay—to solve your problem, you will have to change the boundaries of Matapédia—Matane.

Mr. Paul Crête: In my proposal, I do change the boundaries of Matapédia—Matane. The goal was to make the Gaspésie--Îles-de-la-Madeleine riding smaller. If we could keep Matapédia—Matane and a smaller riding for the islands, that would work.

Mr. Michel Guimond: But the two members were in agreement when they testified before us. I'm talking about Mr. Farrah and Mr. Roy. They would exchange an RCM. The Avignon RCM would go to Gaspé, and the Sainte-Anne-des-Monts RCM would go the other way.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: Well if those two settled it and it doesn't affect Ms. Tremblay's riding, then it doesn't affect us either.

Mr. Paul Crête: The changes in my proposal reflected what they said. In my proposal, the Haute-Gaspésie RCM goes to Matapédia—Matane. At the other end, the Avignon RCM ends up in Mr. Farrah's riding. In my proposal, it is in his riding. The difference I can see is that my riding would have one additional RCM—the La Côte-de-Gaspé RCM—in Matapédia—Matane. If we transfer the La Côte-de-Gaspé RCM to the Îles-de-la-Madeleine riding...

½ (1915)

Mr. Michel Guimond: But you are interfering in something that does not concern you. Why are you getting involved in a transfer from Matapédia—Matane to Gaspé? That does not concern you.

Mr. Paul Crête: Because we didn't want the quotient gap to exceed 25%. But I'm ready to accept any figures.

Mr. Michel Guimond: She's asking you to come to an agreement. Let's take the proposed boundary for Matapédia—Matane. Let's not forget that Georges Farrah and Jean-Yves Roy have already come to an agreement, which we have accepted.

If we go from the Matapédia—Matane boundary all the way to Lévis, is there a way of getting three ridings there?

The Chair: There's already a half in Matapédia—Matane.

Mr. Paul Crête: With my proposal, this would go to Rimouski.

The Chair: I think you should leave this half in Matapédia—Matane

[English]

and then go from there.

[Translation]

Hon. Gilbert Normand: Is the La Mitis RCM part of Matapédia—Matane?

[English]

The Chair: I am just asking you to try to do it. If you can try to come up with it by tomorrow, then we're very sympathetic.

[Translation]

Hon. Gilbert Normand: I don't want to change this anymore. I am fed up.

The Chair: I don't understand.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: I don't want to go through all those discussions again. Sign some piece of paper that guarantees Montmagny--L'Islet will have the same benefits as Rivière-du-Loup--Kamouraska. Then the problem would be solved and everybody would be happy—there are no taxes on the other side, but we are taxed.

The Chair: Mr. Normand, you don't understand. We are trying to help you. We have made a proposal to you, but you don't agree with it. So come up with something else.

Mr. Paul Crête: Madam Chair, that is what we have done.

The Chair: Other members have also made proposals, and we have come to an agreement with other members. We have to come up with something else, and I think we can do it.

Of course, some of our recommendations could simply be set aside by the commission.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: The fact that you heard other members before you heard us is not sufficient reason for their position to prevail over that of others. If we had been heard first, would the others have changed their positions? That argument does not hold up.

I have put forward a proposal...

The Chair: That is your decision. You have the right to refuse.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: We could take something from New Brunswick.

[English]

The Chair: What are you talking about? We already dealt with New Brunswick.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: I simply wanted to support what you said.

Let's say that you had appeared first, and had been told your proposal was accepted. If somebody else arrived after you and everything was changed without your being informed, you would find it totally unacceptable. We cannot come to any decision, we can only make recommendations. If we accept your proposal and it is not approved, we are no further ahead.

[English]

The Chair: Even if I'd heard the other guys first, I wouldn't—

[Translation]

Mr. Paul Crête: I have put forward a concrete proposal. If there is no agreement tomorrow, at least consider it.

The Chair: Of course.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: I did not notice that the La Mitis RCM was included in the Matapédia—Matane riding.

Mr. Paul Crête: We could not split it in two.

The Chair: We have to look closely at what the book says.

Mr. Paul Crête: My proposal is in line with a request that the ridings not be separated.

The Chair: We will have to look closely at what Mr. Desrochers said, because we have to find a solution.

Mr. Paul Crête: I agree with Mr. Guimond. Mr. Desrochers' case is a different problem, which concerns Lévis and his region. It shouldn't be allowed to affect areas all the way to our region; otherwise, there will never be an end to this.

Mr. Michel Guimond: I want us to deal with the problems east of Lévis. If necessary, we will hear Mr. Desrochers and Mr. Binet again, and then consider the ridings west of Lévis. But first, let's see if we can find the best possible balance for the ridings on the eastern side.

½ (1920)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Tomorrow morning, we will be rested. André will have had two or three cups of coffee and eaten three or four slices of toast.

Mr. Paul Crête: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, and good luck!

Mr. Paul Crête: As we say during elections, you can....[Editor's Note: Inaudible].

[English]

The Chair: Thank you for recognizing that. I wasn't sure that somebody appreciated that.

[Translation]

Mr. Normand, you have the floor.

Hon. Gilbert Normand: I will have the choice of standing against Paul or taking the place of the new Liberal member, who will be elected on Monday.

Mr. Paul Crête: I hope you choose the second option. You may have to stand against a new BQ member. I would prefer to see you go west rather than east.

[English]

The Chair: The next time you're offered, come on Monday.

[Translation]

Mr. Lanctôt.

Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ): My request will be far easier, because it concerns a name change only. In fact, it is not even a name change, but a section added to a name. This will really be very easy.

The Chair: Perfect. Is Châteauguay changing its name?

Mr. Robert Lanctôt: The riding of Châteauguay is now called Châteauguay. In the federal electoral boundaries commission report for Quebec, the commissioners proposed that this remain the same. However, Bill C-300 provided for adding Saint-Constant; the riding would therefore be called Châteauguay--Saint-Constant. When the bill was introduced in the Senate, the new map was proposed. The name change process came to a halt, and we were told to come testify before this committee today.

Do you have the documents involved?

The Chair: What is the new name that is being proposed?

Mr. Robert Lanctôt: The proposed name is Châteauguay--Saint-Constant. This makes sense because the riding has two centres, as it were. At present, Châteauguay is in the western part of the riding and Saint-Constant, a town that is over 250 years old, is in the eastern part. Over 54% of the riding population is in the eastern part. We would of course like to keep the name Châteauguay—there is no question of eliminating it. We would simply like to add the name of a town which is over 250 years old.

Saint-Constant is one of the largest towns in the riding, and certainly the largest in the eastern part of the riding. The name would represent people who live in the eastern part. And I am often called the member for Châteauguay, as if I worked only in the western part of the riding. It is as if there was no member to represent the towns of Saint-constant, Sainte-Catherine and Delson.

Saint-Constant has become very large. There has been a housing boom. As you can see, it is a very important area. The three towns there may eventually merge, but we don't know that yet. There is certainly a population centre there.

Saint-Constant is also home to the Canadian Railway Museum.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: So all you are asking is to have the name Saint-Constant added to the name of the riding of Châteauguay.

Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Yes, that is all.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Saint-Constant is already in your riding.

Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Yes. I am not talking about changing its borders. I am talking about the name.

Mr. Michel Guimond: I would like to remind my colleagues of Mr. Lebel's testimony. Mr. Lebel wanted the name Saint-Hilaire to be added to Chambly. The people of Chambly don't feel any connection with the town of Saint-Hilaire, and vice versa.

The eastern part comprises 54% of the riding's total population. Saint-Constant, with over 22,000 people, is the largest town.

½ (1925)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Those are the two largest cities in the riding, and make up two urban centres. By including them both, everyone will feel represented.

In the past, the town of Saint-Constant went all the way to the boundary.

The Chair: Thank you, we all agree!

The meeting is adjourned.