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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, March 31, 2003

1635

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood —St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.)

1640

The Chair

Mr. John Harvard

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. John Harvard

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. Marcel Proulx

La présidente

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

La présidente

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. John Harvard

The Chair

Mr. John Harvard

1645

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East)

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy (Tobique—Mactaquac, Lib.)

1650

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

1655

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Andy Savoy

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Andy Savoy

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Andy Savoy

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy

1700

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Andy Savoy

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Andy Savoy

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

1710

The Chair

1715

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

M. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Alliance canadienne)

Mr. Yvon Godin

M. Scott Reid

Mr. Yvon Godin

M. Scott Reid

Mr. Yvon Godin

M. Scott Reid

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

1720

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

1725

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.)

1730

The Chair

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Chair

1735

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Michel Guimond

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

La présidente

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Mr. Rick Borotsik

1740

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Charles Hubbard

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Chair

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Charles Hubbard

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

1745

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Charles Hubbard

1750

The Chair

Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC)

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

1800

Mr. John Herron

1805

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

1810

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

1815

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John Herron

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John Herron

Mr. Scott Reid

1820

Mr. John Herron

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Herron

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Herron

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

1825

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Mr. John Herron

The Chair

Ms. Libby Davies

The Chair

1830

Ms. Libby Davies

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 003

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Monday, March 31, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

º (1635)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I'll call this meeting to order.

We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment, part of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Our first witness this afternoon is John Harvard, who will be the last witness on the Manitoba section. Mr. Harvard, we are all ears. That is your riding up on the screen. André is here to help direct.

Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood —St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.): Thank you.

I want to apologize for not being here last week, but I had duties elsewhere. I'm glad that you're able to make time for me today.

Madam Chairman, my plea is quite simple. I would like the Electoral Boundaries Commission to leave well enough alone, and I say that most respectfully. The current name of my riding is Charleswood--St. James--Assiniboia. All three names are reflective of Winnipeg and Manitoba history. In fact, my riding is made up of three former municipalities, one once called Charleswood, one that was called St. James, and one that was called Assiniboia. Those historical names go back a long way. The Electoral Boundaries Commission is suggesting that the name of my riding be shortened to Charleswood--St. James. I know shortening a name has some appeal, but those three names in the riding name have historical significance. I'm not aware of any pressure whatsoever in my riding or elsewhere in the province for a name change. I think this is more or less a gratuitous action on the part of the Electoral Boundaries Commission, and I see no need for it whatsoever. So I would ask this committee simply to endorse my position to leave the name as is.

º (1640)

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Harvard.

Just to clarify, it's strictly a name change.

Mr. John Harvard: Nothing else.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): As you know, members of Parliament on many occasions bring to the House of Commons a change of name themselves, which usually Parliament supports. If they change the name of your riding, will you come and change it back?

Mr. John Harvard: Yes, I will.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you.

Mr. John Harvard: So I'm hoping they will spare us that action and respect not only my wishes, but I hope your wishes as well.

The Chair: Merci beaucoup.

Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Thank you, Madam Chair.

Have they changed the boundaries at all, Mr. Harvard?

Mr. John Harvard: A little bit.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: But not to the point where they've taken Assiniboia out?

Mr. John Harvard: No. You know the city of Winnipeg, Rick. My riding stops pretty well now at Deer Lodge Hospital. They're extending it east to Ferry Road, which is maybe six, eight, or ten blocks, and then there's a little finger over by Assiniboine Park that maybe includes about a hundred homes that now belong to Winnipeg South Centre. The boundary changes are extremely minor.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So they just squared it off, but Assiniboia is still reflective of the name.

Mr. John Harvard: Oh, very much so.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's all I was trying to get at.

Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Did you get any indication why they removed it?

Mr. John Harvard: Absolutely none. When they had their hearing in Winnipeg, they naturally invited me to make a representation. Because of certain obligations here, I couldn't, so I sent them a letter. By chance, I met the chairman of the commission at the Winnipeg airport one day, and we had an amiable chat about it. About a month or so later I hear the decision to remove the name Assiniboia from the riding name. They're sort of like the higher courts, they seem to have the privilege of not having to bring forward a written opinion if that's the way they feel about it.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I know they've been trying to avoid these long names, but in your case it doesn't seem to change very much. It's going to be a little longer, and that's it.

Mr. John Harvard: To me it's a pretty simple name. Yes, it has three elements, but it rolls off the tongue very well. I just see no reason to change it. Once you have your template on your stationery and so on, it's no big deal.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay. Thank you.

[Translation]

La présidente: Mr. Guimond, do you have any questions?

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Usually, I ask questions on what I hear.

La présidente: But you are a member of Parliament. This is not a rule.

Mr. Michel Guimond: I would just like to know how is his health.

[English]

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Harvard, I just have one question. Is Assiniboia in one of the other ridings as well?

Mr. John Harvard: There is an Assiniboia, an area in Saskatchewan, about 300 miles away, but not in our area at all.

The Chair: So if I were in Winnipeg and I said, I want to go to Assiniboia, they'd know exactly where it was in your riding.

Mr. John Harvard: They'd know exactly where you're going. It used to be a separate municipality until about 30 years ago.

º (1645)

The Chair: Thank you.

There being no further questions, thank you very much, Mr. Harvard, for your appearance.

We'll now get in all the New Brunswick people.

Colleagues, there's a fair bit of information being distributed. Perhaps I can just draw your attention to what you have. In the packages that were sent to your offices you have the initial proposals, as well as the revised proposals.

[Translation]

Mr. Guimond, we are talking here about existing ridings.

[English]

You also will have a map of New Brunswick, a highway map, so that when people start whipping off various towns, we can find them. Mr. Savoy and anybody else who is presenting before this committee, if you're going to mention specific towns, can you just give us a chance to locate them on the map? You also have a laser pointer. Try not to blind any of the committee members, or we won't be inclined to agree with you.

In your kit you will have what was initially sent out to the people and what is now being proposed, which is what Mr. Savoy and the others would be objecting to.

Here is our very helpful, although sometimes confusing, computer simulation. In the bottom section you have the districts and their population numbers, English and French breakdowns, and the percentage the total is off from the average. In New Brunswick they're working on an average riding of 72,950 voters. You can see the deviation from that in the last column.

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East): Do you have a print-out of those?

The Chair: That is what is in that brown one.

Mr. Savoy.

Mr. Andy Savoy (Tobique—Mactaquac, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First, I would like to officially, on record, congratulate the electoral boundaries committee in New Brunswick for listening to the constituents in my riding and making the changes from what was initially proposed to a quite radically different riding. The initial riding proposed ran almost to Moncton in the east, to St. John in the southeast, and up to almost where it is now. They realized, from the input of the various witnesses, that was too large to be manageable and separated communities of interest. They've redrawn the map, and I commend them for that. I think they've done a wonderful job, except for a couple of small areas.

Two polls have been given to me that are presently in the Fredericton riding. Look at those two polls right there. That's called Maugerville, and that one is called Northfield. My present boundary lines run right here. They've added one poll from this riding, and the highway runs here. There's very little population in this area. A portion of Maugerville has been added to my riding. There's one poll in Northfield. This is presently in Andy Scott's riding of Fredericton, and it's been moved for I'm not sure what purpose, because there's no community of interest change whatsoever. It's part of the Fredericton community of interest. They've also put Northfield in my riding and added one poll in that area. There are only two polls in these fairly large geographic areas, but they've been added to my riding, I think because this was the actual piece that connected me with southern New Brunswick.

Initially, my riding ran down to this area, in what they had proposed, and the connector was right there, and it was Maugerville and Northfield, those two polls. They brought it most of the way back, but kept those two regions in my riding, and I think it was an oversight more than anything, because they're with Andy Scott now, and there's no reason to change them because of population, community of interest, or community of identity. The historical voting pattern is not an issue, because they have historically voted with the Fredericton riding. I believe you received a letter from Andy Scott as well that says he supports their being put into his new riding, the new riding of Fredericton, because they make sense from a community of interest, community of identity, and historical voting pattern perspective.

That's basically it. There are only two polls. It's an area I think has just been an oversight, one that should have been put into Andy Scott's riding, and instead, was put into my riding.

º (1650)

The Chair: If I can just help colleagues out a little bit, in this book on the first map on page 27 is the existing boundary. In this book near the back is what was initially proposed. Then in this book you'll see the conclusion, which includes those two extra pieces, and this one is on page 82.

Before we turn to questions, if I could get André to move the line to what Mr. Savoy is suggesting, we can just check what the population numbers would be.

Mr. Andy Savoy: There are two polls in total.

The Chair: But he can tell us exactly what the numbers would be.

Mr. Andy Savoy: It's not the entire--

The Chair: It's not that entire piece?

Mr. Andy Savoy: No, it's just the top portion of it.

The Chair: Up here?

Mr. Andy Savoy: The top piece. The other piece.

The Chair: The other yellow.

Mr. Andy Savoy: The other yellow.

The Chair: Sorry, the other green right now.

Mr. Andy Savoy: That one. And the second one is the one beside it, Northfield.

The Chair: If we add that to Fredericton, what happens to Fredericton and what happens to Tobique?

º (1655)

Mr. Andy Savoy: It's 604 people, two polls, I think.

The Chair: Right now Tobique is minus 3.3% and Fredericton is plus 12.9%, so it's 0.2% difference for Fredericton, to 13.1% from 12.9%, and 0.3% on the other side. So those are all the technical considerations.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That brings it to what, then?

The Chair: Plus 13.1%, as opposed to 12.9%, on Fredericton, and minus 3.6%, as opposed to the current minus 3.3%.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: You did say, Mr. Savoy, the Fredericton sitting member said there were no difficulties.

Mr. Andy Savoy: He sent a letter, in fact, saying he would support inclusion into his riding.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Bringing back the 604 he lost.

Mr. Andy Savoy: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: You said it was the largest geographical riding in New Brunswick, and I certainly see from the square kilometres you have that it is. We dealt with one in Manitoba just last week, and I should tell you that you're not terribly hard done by.

Mr. Andy Savoy: Yes, I realize.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay.

Mr. Andy Savoy: That was not a complaint about it.

The Chair: Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: Why do you suggest that it belongs more in Fredericton, other than because you didn't have it before? The 600 people who live there, where would they identify themselves?

Mr. Andy Savoy: Their voting patterns are with Fredericton. The community with which they identify would be either Fredericton or Minto, which is right at the top of the lake here. My riding runs up the Nashwaak River valley towards Miramichi, so my population's concentrated along the Nashwaak River. This area is Fredericton as well, but it's the Nashwaak River valley between Fredericton and a place called Stanley, which is a little further up.

The Chair: Unfortunately, it was not translated, but I do have the letter from Mr. Scott, which, in addition to complimenting the Electoral Boundaries Commission for “taking seriously the concerns that were voiced by the citizens who appeared during the committee's hearings”, says:

I am generally satisfied with the most recent proposed electoral boundaries and believe my constituents feel likewise. I would like to bring two issues to the attention of the subcommittee.

First, I continue to believe that there are small areas on both the north and south sides of the Saint John River and just outside the city of Fredericton, generally known as the Hanwell Road and Douglas, where the communities would prefer to be part of Fredericton.

Are those the communities you're talking about?

Mr. Andy Savoy: That's a separate area. It's in the second point I think he addresses my issue.

» (1700)

The Chair: Okay.

Secondly, the parish of Northfield, adjacent to the community of Chipman, remains a new section of the riding of Tobique--Mactaquac. This area would be more correctly added to the federal riding of Fredericton

[Translation]

Any questions?

Mr. Proulx.

[English]

Mr. Marcel Proulx: People living in these two polls would relate much better to Fredericton than to your riding.

Mr. Andy Savoy: Communities of interest, communities of identity, historical voting patterns, everything points in that direction.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Never mind the voting patterns, where would they go shopping?

Mr. Andy Savoy: Fredericton.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Savoy.

Mr. Andy Savoy: Thank you, and good luck in your deliberations.

The Chair: Thank you.

Now we have Monsieur Godin, who has been substituted by Ms. Davis for this entire New Brunswick section.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Madam Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to appear before the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

I want to mention that I was under no legislative obligation to withdraw from the subcommittee, but I did it in order to avoid all perceived conflict of interest. I think this is best course of conduct.

First, I would like to refer to the map I brought with me.

[English]

The Chair: Okay.

[Translation]

Mr. Godin, John also has some information from Election Canada. Would you like to have it?

Mr. Yvon Godin: At the outset, the commission wanted to rename the riding of Acadie—Bathurst and call it Chaleur—Péninsule. I thank the commission for changing its mind and keeping Acadie—Bathurst, because it is really reflective of the area. Bathurst represents the English-speaking community. Everyone agrees with that. And the Acadians in this area wanted to keep the name Acadie. This name has been kept in the last recommendation of the commission, and we are thankful for that.

Now, let me turn to the changes that have been made in this district. It should be acknowledged that 84% of the population in Acadie—Barthurst is French-speaking. In the Miramichi area, the percentage is about 30%, but it is 19% in the city of Miramichi proper.

We have here the boundaries of the former district of Acadie—Bathurst, which have been set in 1994. In the newer district, the parish of Saumarez, the parish of Allardville and part of the parish of Bathurst have been transferred to the district of Miramichi.

In the Saint-Sauveur and Allardville areas, everybody speaks French. Some are bilingual, but most people are French-speaking and do not know English at all. It is exactly the same thing in the Val-Comeau and Pont-Lafrance areas. We have people there who can speak only French. This is in the parish of Saumarez.

In the Bathurst area, we went as far as Rough Water Street, in Bathurst. After the curve in Rough Water Street, we have an area called Chamberlain Settlement. The remaining part of this street, that is Chamberlain Settlement, is in the Miramichi riding. Obviously, the commission looked at the figures only. It took into consideration the map and the figures and it tried to set the boundaries after the figures.

After that, the commission took the area of South Tetagouche, where we have Rosehill Road, and it moved one side of Rosehill Road in the Miramichi riding. There are only 15 to 20 homes there. The member for Miramichi will have to go from here and go through the Acadie—Bathurst riding right in front of my office just to be able to represent some people in the South Tetagouche area.

People in South Tetagouche, Saint-Sauveur and Allardville all do their shopping and other business in Bathurst. There is a real community of interest. I wanted to explain the changes that have been made.

On top of that, Belledune has been moved into the Miramichi riding. Belledune is in the middle of nowhere, so to speak. The commission, which worries only about numbers and standards, figured it would move the Belledune population into the Miramichi riding. I do not know how the member of this riding will manage. I do not know where-- [Editor's Note: Inaudible] - the reality. It is not for me to stand up for people in Belledune, because they are not part of my riding. This is something the members for Madawaska—Restigouche or Miramichi should do. Just looking at the road map, you can see there is no direct link between Miramichi and Belledune. You have to go through the Acadie—Bathurst riding.

This is not a situation of a city or region where the boundary in is the middle of a street, when all the services are in the city. What they have done in balkanize a rural area.

I just wanted to give an overview of what the commission has done. People in my area have learnt how to co-operate. People in the Acadian Peninsula, or French-speaking people in Beresford and Petit-Rocher have leant how to work with people in the Bathurst area.

Even the city of Bathurst has made representations to keep people in the same riding. In 1997, the city made a policy statement I would like to put on record.

The City of Bathurst recognizes the rights of both its linguistic communities in the provision of services to the public. It undertakes to give groups of both official languages services of the same level of quality in their mother tongue in the most productive and effective way for a reasonable cost.

People have learnt how to get along.

I am from Saint-Sauveur, and I remember that, when I was a kid, we used to go shopping in Bathurst, go to school in Bathurst, go to the hospital in Bathurst. Never in the world people in Saint-Sauveur, in Allardville or in the vicinity would go for services in Miramichi. I will keep coming back with this argument, because I am right. Even people in Val-Comeau go shopping in Tracadie and go to the hospital in Tracadie. Everything is done in Tracadie.

Because of the numbers, because the Acadie—Bathurst riding stood at plus 14% and Miramichi was at minus 21%, the commission figured it would take just these two districts and consider the total difference between them. Fourteen plus 21 makes 35. The total variance was 35. But the electoral quotient should not apply to just two regions. It should apply to a whole province. The electoral quotient allowed for a 25% variance. Even the Supreme Court told us in 1989 that electoral boundaries should not be set by taking into consideration just the numbers, because there are people involved and communities of interest. That is when the court allowed a 25% variance. It went even further and said that in exceptional situations, we could even have a greater variance.

In our riding, we do not even need this exceptional situation argument. We are well within the 25% variance. That is why I am asking this parliamentary committee to make a recommendation to the commission. We will seen what happens after our hearings with people in the area, because I do not know what other people will do.

Here is an example. When the commission had hearings in Caraquet, 18 individuals and groups made representations, like the mayors' forum, mayors individually, associations and individuals. We had 18 representations, and all of them were supportive of the status quo. We just cannot divide this well established community.

The commission even said that it based its decision on economic development considerations. In this region, we have the Brunswick Mine. People who work in the Brunswick Mine are all from the Bathurst area and the Acadian Peninsula. We also have the forest industry and a paper mill, and a shooting range. People in the peninsula are those who worked for the economic development in this area. We have a sawmill on the Miramichi River. All of those who work there are from Acadie—Bathurst. Even from the economic point of view, the commission had it all wrong.

In September 2002, a petition with 2,600 signatures was submitted to the commission. Petitioners said they did not want any changes in their riding. About three weeks ago, during the Canada Games, there was also a meeting in Tracadie-Sheila, with is part of this district. We had a snow storm on that day. As you know, we do have many snow storms in our area. Right now, we just had a 25 centimeters snowfall in our region. But a snow storm did not prevent 400 people from attending the meeting. None of them wanted to be included in Miramichi. Not a single one. The 400 participants were talking loud and clear, and there was lots of applause. They were saying they wanted to stay in the Acadie—Bathurst riding. They decided they should send post cards to the Speaker of the House of Commons. In the last two weeks, 6,000 similar post cards were delivered to the Speaker of the House of Commons, and I asked that they be referred to this committee. Apparently 500 more cards have been sent by other groups this week. People are really expressing their opinion. Since this is important, I will put on the record the text on these post cards:

Following the tabling of the Report of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for New Brunswick in the House of Commons on February 12, 2003, I want to object to the changes being proposed in the Acadie—Bathurst electoral district. These changes do not reflect the opinion of concerned citizens, nor the community of interests principle.

Should you decide to make recommendations to the commission, I would like these post cards to be sent to the commission, since they are reflective of the wishes of people in my area.

» (1710)

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Godin.

Just to keep everybody straight, in this book it is page 9, then what was proposed in this book is map 1, and you can see Chaleur--Péninsule at the top. In this book it is page 82, and the commentary on Acadie--Bathurst is on page 22, the commentary on Miramichi is on page 34.

» (1715)

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Do I have any more time?

[English]

The Chair: Well, we're at 14 minutes.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Okay, just one last comment.

[Translation]

I sent a complaint to the official languages commissioner, and I received her answer last Friday. She writes:

The report of the commission did not convince me it fully took into consideration the impact of its recommendations on the development and growth of official language minority communities in the Acadie—Bathurst riding. I cannot conclude the commission has met its responsibilities under section 41 of the Official Languages Act. My conclusion is that this complaint is justified.

The commissioner therefore recommends that the commission should reconsider its decision. I have handed to you a copy of this decision by the official languages commissioner, and I would like to have it included in the report.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much.

You've told us, Mr. Godin, what your concerns are, but what is your proposal for change? If you could, use the magic pointer and show us where you would suggest writing a new boundary.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I don't need the magic pointer, it's statistical.

[Translation]

The variance of the riding is plus 14%. In this case, it is not possible to change anything. As soon as you make changes, it will be against the recommendation of the official languages commissioner and the community of interest principle in the region, simply because all French-speaking people live near the boundary between Acadie—Bathurst and Miramichi.

[English]

The Chair: Are there any other questions?

Mr. Reid.

[Translation]

M. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Alliance canadienne): I think the change you suggested concerns the city and parish of Bathurst, Allardville and--

Mr. Yvon Godin: Allardville and Saumarez.

M. Scott Reid: Part of Saumarez. Am I right?

Mr. Yvon Godin: Part of Saumarez, and part of Bathurst and Allardville.

M. Scott Reid: Fine. The more distant area from the southern part of Miramichi is the one including the towns of Durham, Colborne and Belledune. Are changes being proposed about this? Even if the changes you are suggesting are made, the member for Miramichi will still have the same problems serving the northern part of his riding.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes, and this member is here tonight. Hopefully, he will raise the fact that transferring Belledune from on riding to the other is unacceptable.

M. Scott Reid: Are people in Belledune as frustrated as other people? No?

Mr. Yvon Godin: I will not tell you publicly why, but I think it is more...

[English]

The Chair: Would it help, colleagues, if we heard from Mr. Hubbard now, because he's from Miramichi, and then asked him both questions? It's your call.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Can we look at the figures?

The Chair: Sure, we can look at the figures, but do you also want to hear from Mr. Hubbard?

Ms. Libby Davies: Will we ask him both questions?

The Chair: Yes. Does that work, Mr. Reid?

Mr. Scott Reid: Yes, good.

The Chair: Okay.

Before we turn to you, Mr. Hubbard, we will ask our techno-wizard, Mr. Cyr, if these are the 1996 data or the 2003 data?

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): These are the 1996 ridings in the matrix at the bottom. The colour pink is the current riding of Acadie--Bathurst. The proposed limit would remove all areas south of the brown line, Allardville and Saumarez.

» (1720)

The Chair: It is Madawaska--Restigouche that's giving up Colborne, Belledune, and Durham, right? Could you tell us what the numbers would be if you added those areas back in? Mr. Godin, you're not asking to keep Belledune, Durham, and Colborne?

Mr. Yvon Godin: It's not for me to make a request on a part of the map in which I am not involved.

The Chair: But you said it's hard to service those areas from Miramichi--

Mr. Yvon Godin: That's right. That's why I said that.

The Chair: Are you proposing to have those added to your constituency as well or not? I'm trying to be clear before we ask him to change the numbers.

Mr. Yvon Godin: If they are added to my riding, it will come to more than 14%, and we're trying to convince them 14% is all right. The only thing is why they took it out of Restigouche. I think the only reason was to try to give numbers to Miramichi; they only looked at numbers and not at what they were doing. As a matter of fact, Belledune works a lot with Bathurst on the economic development and everything, and of the people working in Belledune probably half or more come from Bathurst.

The Chair: What would you propose if we are going to look at changing the numbers in your constituency? Would you include Belledune or not? I'm asking them to change the numbers. I want to know what I'm asking them.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You can try it if you want, but that's not been the request of my presentation.

The Chair: Okay, you just want Gloucester. You want the pink area back, and you don't care necessarily about the purple area.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes, every rock and tree that is in it.

The Chair: If you wouldn't mind, André, cut off Restigouche.

Mr. André Cyr: The present map is the status quo. I will go to the other scenario with the new numbers. That will be faster.

The brown outline is the current riding, and what is left in pink would be the proposed one, at 4.7% above the quotient.

The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: If we take the proposed numbers now, what are they, as a percentage?

The Chair: Can you give us a number for that one plus the beige bit that's in 7? He doesn't want Belledune, Colborne, and Durham.

Mr. André Cyr: That is 5,449.

The Chair: So if you add them to the riding?

» (1725)

Mr. André Cyr: The current riding is at 4.7%, now it will be 11.8%. There are a few census blocks missing. It would bring the total to plus 14%.

The Chair: Is that 14% or 11.8%?

Mr. André Cyr: There are a few blocks missing near the shoreline that I can add.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: In your constituency, Mr. Godin, is there any growth, or is it a constituency that's losing population to other, larger areas, Moncton, Fredericton? Is there a growth in Bathurst, or is there a decline in population?

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: The population is declining. In the future the 14% variance will drop. In the Acadian Peninsula, with the problems in fisheries, people are leaving to go to university, and they do not come back. There are already a number of people in the peninsula and even in the Bathurst area who are leaving.

[English]

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you.

The Chair: Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: I too wanted to clarify the numbers. I think the argument about the community of interest is very strong, particularly given the comments from the Commissioner of Official Languages. But right now Acadie--Bathurst has a 14% variation above the average, so it's still within the 25%. What you're proposing would keep it at what it is now, so you're not suggesting it go above that. Also, you're saying it's not a high-growth area, in fact, if anything, you're losing people, so that number will go down a bit.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Exactly. Also, if you look at the report of the commission on page 24, they say:

Here again, the experience of the spirit as well as the law of official bilingualism was evident as presenters articulated the very important role the City of Bathurst plays as the Anglophone portion and major service centre in the electoral district.

Presenters took issue with the initial boundary changes citing the need to respect communities of interest as well as the historic or cultural connection communities have with each other, especially those primary Francophone communities being transferred to the Miramichi electoral district

The Chair: Thank you.

If you could stay in the chair, I'll turn to Mr. Hubbard, and then we'll come back to see if there are questions for either of the gentlemen.

Mr. Hubbard.

Mr. Charles Hubbard (Miramichi, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair, and good afternoon, everyone.

I just want to make a few brief points. I know the commissioners had a very difficult job in looking at New Brunswick and trying to decide. Their basic philosophy--and I only attended one of their meetings--was that each riding should have the same numbers, so they tried to make 10 divisions of the New Brunswick population, which gave us a significant problem. The first report indicated that Miramichi would have not only what's on the board, but also the 15 or 16 first nations reserves around New Brunswick. In fact, one presenter at the Miramichi compared my job to being on a merry-go-round, where I'd be travelling through every corner of New Brunswick trying to represent our native people. That has been changed.

My main point in being here today is that we seem to be looking at the idea of one person having an equal value of vote, but we're destroying a great number of the significant economic and cultural roles members of Parliament have to play in serving their constituents. Basically, most of our work is being an ombudsman and trying to give service to the people in the riding.

In 1997 I lost to Andy Savoy's riding a part of the county of York on the far westerly side. We lost between 1,200 and 1,500 people when that happened. We had added in the 1997 election an area of Kent County, and we picked up probably 4,000 or 5,000 people. We've been losing population. The base closure was a big factor there. We probably lost between 3,000 and 4,000 people when the base moved from Chatham.

In any case, today, Madam Chair, I want to being to your attention the fact that, as Yvon says, language is a factor. I'm an anglophone. The member of Parliament from our riding for some 15 years of the 20 years before that was a francophone, Maurice Dionne. We have a riding here that is about one-third francophone, whether it's the old way or the new way, about two-thirds anglophone.

The major point we have to make to the committee today is the fact of distances. Boiestown is in the far left-hand corner there of the riding, just about where those lines meet. If I were to go up to the outskirts of Dalhousie, I'd be going through Mr. Godin's riding to get there. It's a very big riding that has been created. We'd be losing parts of Kent County, the part we picked up in 1997.

Yvon, I think you'd have to admit that several of the presenters at the Miramichi meeting indicated that they were quite happy to be part of the Miramichi constituency. The reason for that is the economic activity in the area, which deals with lumbering and forestry activities. Your record will indicate that there were two or three presenters who were in favour of that.

I don't have a strong personal complaint to make today, Madam Chair, it's merely to listen to Mr. Godin and to say to the committee, with the three growth centres in New Brunswick, Fredericton, St. John, and Moncton, the people in the northeast, and probably also the northwest, of New Brunswick have a big geography to meet the criteria of 72,000 or 73,000 people in each riding. I would hope that in your report you will look upon economic activity, social and cultural basis, and try as best you can to make sure we have centres of interest and of community when you define the 10 constituencies in New Brunswick.

» (1730)

The Chair: Thank you.

Just to clarify, in Miramichi you currently have Saint-Charles and Saint-Louis de Kent. They will go to Beauséjour according to this proposal. You get to keep Acadieville?

Mr. Charles Hubbard: Acadieville and Pointe-Sapin, those two areas. They've been with Miramichi ridings since 1968 election, I think. They've been there for some 35 years.

The Chair: Okay.

Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: You've clearly identified the community of interest based on language and culture and history, and it sounds like the commission really focused on trying to straighten out the numbers. From your point of view, the three communities identified by Monsieur Godin, which are, as I understand it, 100% francophone, or very close to, are identified more within the Acadie--Bathurst community, based on the language traditions, the cultural traditions, and so on.

Mr. Charles Hubbard: Perhaps you could check it, but that entire area that was added to Miramichi in the north I think is about 50-50.

The Chair: André is going to give us the language breakdown.

Ms. Libby Davies: I was identifying the three communities Monsieur Godin is saying should remain as part of the status quo.

The Chair: Colborne, Belledune, and Durham.

Ms. Libby Davies: No.

Mr. Charles Hubbard: You could check the other ones too.

The Chair: Oh, Bathurst, Allardville, and Saumarez.

» (1735)

Mr. André Cyr: So we are looking for the population breakdown, French and English, for Allardville and Saumarez?

The Chair: Why don't you do the other one, just in case we get asked about Madawaska--Restigouche?

Mr. André Cyr: Of the three numbers that appear within each municipality, which are the green lines, the first is total population, the second is mother tongue English, the third is mother tongue French. So if I take the parish of Bathurst, there are 2,900 mother tongue English and 2,400 mother tongue French. In Allardville there are 91 persons with mother tongue English and 2,338 mother tongue French.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Allardville is French. That's where I come from.

The Chair: That's what he's saying: 91 English and 2,900 French.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Ninety-one people. I thought he was saying 91%.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Ninety-one English-speaking people.

The Chair: No, it is 91 people.

[English]

Mr. André Cyr: We're dealing with numbers, not percentages.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Sorry, I thought it was percentages.

Mr. André Cyr: In Saumarez there are 139 English-speaking residents and 6,784 French-speaking citizens.

Did you also want the population breakdowns for Colborne, Durham, and Belledune?

The Chair: No.

Ms. Davies, did you have any more questions?

Ms. Libby Davies: No.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Godin, did you want to make some other comment about that?

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes. On page 17 in the commission's report--

La présidente: This is the last report?

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes, on page 17 of the last report, second paragraph--

[English]

The Chair: “Another example...”?

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: -it reads: “The community of Bathurst is the Anglophone portion of an electoral district that is 84 percent Francophone and 15 percent Anglophone.” That is what the report says. I would like a comment to clarify--

[English]

a point that was made. Mr. Hubbard said there were a few who made presentations in Miramichi. There was only one person who made a presentation himself, Claude Boucher, and you have his report, as I gave it to you, and this person wanted to go farther, he wanted to give more. It was Robertville he was ready to give away. There was only one report put in, from a person from Acadie--Bathurst, and he made his report in Miramichi, not in Acadie--Bathurst. Eighteen said completely the opposite. In the report of the commission, at page 24 again, they talk about their decision:

[Translation]

Based on belief in the spirit and letter of the Act and its goal of more effective representation, Commission members remained convinced of the need to rectify the wide variance in population between the Miramichi and Acadie—Bathurst electoral districts--

So, they took into account the figures and not the community of interests principle. I have included in my report to you stories from newspapers on the education of the general public. Some people are not ready to vote at the next election. I want to let you know here what people in my region think.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm trying to piece this together. It seems Monsieur Godin was correct, the areas that are being proposed as going into Miramichi are predominantly French, from a community of interest point of view.

Mr. Charles Hubbard: I was referring also to the area from Restigouche County.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I appreciate that, but that's not where Mr. Godin was coming from, unless you can correct me. You're talking about the area that's now going to Miramichi that used to be in Acadie--Bathurst, not Restigouche. That's a separate issue altogether.

The numbers do get skewed quite badly. If you don't pick up that population from Monsieur Godin, the Miramichi has substantially fewer than what the other numbers are. Is there any area you could say, Mr. Hubbard, has more of a community of interest with Miramichi, where that population base may well be better served by you, as opposed to someone else in the surrounding constituency, other than Mr. Godin's?

» (1740)

Mr. Charles Hubbard: As I pointed out, we're losing part of Kent County. We're losing probably about 5,000 people there with this change.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's why I asked the question. You live in the area, you service the people. Are there areas in your constituency that would be better served by you, perhaps not in Monsieur Godin's, but areas that have more of a community of interest with Miramichi than with where they're going now or where they've been?

Mr. Charles Hubbard: The northern part of Beauséjour was part of our constituency for the last two elections. There is a report from a group in Saint-Louis, which was made in a presentation, I believe, in Shediac, that said that area would prefer to move to Beauséjour. I'm not sure if you have a copy of that submission.

Ms. Libby Davies: Do you know why they suggested that?

Mr. Charles Hubbard: Again, it's basically an argument about language.

The Chair: Are there any other questions?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Would you suggest that part of Beauséjour would be better served by Miramichi, from the point of view of population base and community of interest? You said you had Kent, but you never mentioned anything about that in this presentation. Is that better served by Miramichi?

Mr. Charles Hubbard: Kent is part of Beauséjour riding--

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, I appreciate that.

Mr. Charles Hubbard: I don't plan to make any recommendation, I'm only expressing some concerns. I think the people in the area have to do the speaking, and as members of Parliament, we are their servants. So I really wouldn't want to get into that, Rick.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: I've been looking at the map and the change that occurred in Kent County. I also looked at the numbers before they took the Indian reserves out of your riding. I gather that when the Indian reserves were moved from the riding, your population dropped from being about 10% below the average to 14% below the average. They didn't make any other changes to the boundaries--that's what it looks like to me--between the preliminary report and this report. Is that essentially correct?

Mr. Charles Hubbard: In the changes they added back in the two parishes of Acadieville and the area including Pointe-Sapin and Kouchibouguac, which they had taken out in the first report.

The Chair: You have to look at all three of them.

Mr. Charles Hubbard: It's very complicated.

The Chair: Then you have to figure out how to pronounce them properly.

Mr. Scott Reid: Oh, I see, Acadieville and Carleton, yes.

Saint-Louis and Saint-Charles being French, what about a bit to the west, where there's a place called Huskisson? If you're trying to basically lower Beauséjour's population a bit and raise yours in order to justify a change to the north, would something like that make any sense at all?

Mr. Charles Hubbard: It's a very small population, I believe, in that parish.

Mr. André Cyr: There's a total population of 10.

The Chair: But how many are anglos and how many are francos?

Mr. André Cyr: Half and half.

The Chair: Oh, there you go, that will greatly change the outcome.

Mr. Scott Reid: We probably should split Huskisson and put it in two separate ridings.

The Chair: Okay.

The commissioners went to some length on pages 13 and 14 to talk about the principle of one person, one vote. They even talk about intervenors who suggested that this should be disregarded and that community of interest, community of identity, historical pattern of an electoral district, manageable geographic size for districts should beconsidered. They really believe there is a bigger guiding principle in Canadian law, one person, one vote, and while the other things can be important, you can't jeopardize the equality of vote “by placing more weight on often temporary, difficult to define and sometimes competing communities of interest and concerns.” Do you have anything to say to that, Mr. Godin?

» (1745)

Mr. Yvon Godin: That goes against the court decision of 1989, when the Supreme Court said, no, you cannot do it, and we're going to give you a 25% margin to be able to look at community of interest. If you turn around and say the number comes first, then all communities of interest should come out of the book and not be looked at it any more. The only way that you could respect the community of interest is by looking at those numbers and having that flexibility. I say very openly and publicly the commissions across the country have been wrong, because all across the country they have tried to bring it to around 5%. The Supreme Court said, no, we're going to give you 25%, and in exceptional circumstances you could even go more than 25%.

That's the reason the commission in New Brunswick took Saint-Louis de Kent and put it back in Beauséjour, the community of interest. When I presented myself to the commission and asked why they were doing it to Saint-Louis de Kent, he said, it's because in 1994 you were ready to take us to court for that, and now we're correcting this problem. I said, well, if you're correcting this problem, why do you come into Acadie--Bathurst and create the same problem? Do we have to take you to court too? And he said, no, I'm not looking for that. And now we have the recommendation of the Commissioner of Official Languages that says the 25% exists, and this commission, as far as they're concerned, did not look at the community of interest.

The Chair: The commission, on page 14, identifies a Supreme Court decision from Saskatchewan that says it is more important to look at one person, one vote.

Mr. Yvon Godin: I say the Supreme Court has expressed itself on community of interest. They did not remove the 25%, the rule is still there. Why is it there? If it doesn't mean anything, they should remove it, because then it gives the wrong impression. The 25% is still in the rules, and the only way you can deal with the 25% is if you look at community of interest and you give an importance to it.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Hubbard, did you want to comment?

Mr. Charles Hubbard: It's going to be a problem, but I think in the long run, hopefully, we won't see such drastic changes in constituencies, because people think one way and they try to go to an area to get their services.

Finally, Madam Chair, it's going to be difficult for me or whoever is the member of Parliament for Miramichi to service a very large constituency that doesn't have good roads. Mr. Savoy certainly has one that's two square kilometres bigger than mine, but the roads are a factor, and I would have to go through Yvon's riding to get to parts in mine. So it's going to be awkward, but I guess we have to go by the rules of the wise people who sit around this table and the three who were part of the commission.

» (1750)

The Chair: Okay. Thank you, both, for appearing before us. It's not going to be an easy job we have.

Now I'll ask Mr. Herron to come forward.

Just in case anyone wants to follow along, page 88 is the map in this book, and the commentary is on pages 29 to 32. The current boundaries are on page 17 in this one.

Mr. Herron.

[Translation]

Mr. John Herron (Fundy—Royal, PC): Madam Chairman, later on, I intend to give you my presentation. It was finished half an hour ago, and I am embarrassed to circulate it in English only. If hon. members want to peruse my copy, they may.

[English]

I have a deck people can use, but it's only in one official language.

The Chair: If they want to come and grab it, they can.

Mr. John Herron: The presentation I might want to pick up on, and I had these three slides in here, just a little bit of fun, but it also explains why you're having a daunting task right now in the Province of New Brunswick itself. It's based on the three bears. Miramichi was too small by population and Moncton was too big by population, but Fundy--Royal was just right, within 0.67% of the population itself. So when you went to the presentation you looked at a second ago, an argument could have been had that the commissioners could have just looked at the eastern swath of the province, from Moncton, Beauséjour, and Miramichi, and reallocated population there. Every other riding was clearly within the variance. That could have been the approach of the commission, and we may not have been in the problematic situation we're in right now. However, the commission has a very daunting task in the fact that there's an entitlement by Constitution for New Brunswick to have ten seats in a population of only 750,000 persons, and that has a long history, which makes it even more complicated with historical communities of interest.

I have filed two objections, and I separated them originally, because it is going to be very difficult to reallocate the population, and I wasn't sure at the time of submission about how to approach it. I've got a little bit more clarity to it, but there will be some ambiguity, which we can talk about during the question period. One, I think, is a very linear argument. The town of Rothesay should remain in the riding of Fundy, and we'll talk about Fundy--Royal later on. I've also filed an objection with respect to three specific parishes in the northern part of Kings County, Kars, Springfield, and Studholm. I think I'd like to talk about the Rothesay objection.

The Chair: Just before you go there, Mr. Herron, on the highway map help me find Rothesay.

¼ (1800)

Mr. John Herron: Rothesay is one of two very large towns on the outside of Saint John, known as the Kennebecasis Valley, the other one being Quispamsis.

The presentation I'm making is based on a request, with letters that are in this docket here as well, from the town of Quispamsis and the town of Rothesay, known as the Kennebecasis Valley. During the hearings the commission says on page 30 of the report “Presenters expressed their opposition to the separation of Quispamsis from Rothesay pointing to shared community of interest, geographical proximity as well as working and living patterns.” The commission, however, expresses regret that it cannot satisfy all views presented, in particular the view that Quispamsis and Rothesay should remain in the same electoral district, and they rationalize the decision on the basis of population, in order to keep within population variances. The problem is--and this is where the town of Rothesay got very angry with the process--that there are 69,821 persons in the riding of Saint John today, about 4% variance, there are 69,972 people in the riding of Fundy as proposed, without Rothesay. If one is going to have 81,000 and one is going to have 69,000, shouldn't we put Rothesay where they want to be?

To illustrate how they share similar activities, this is a picture of the Rothesay police station, located in Quispamsis. This is the Kennebecasis Valley library, a shared facility located in Quispamsis. The new fire station for the Kennebecasis Valley is built in Rothesay. They share about everything they do, so that's why they're known as the Kennebecasis Valley itself. Two democratically elected councils passed motions in open session that said, if there are 69,000 people in the riding of Saint John without Rothesay and this proposed riding of Fundy is going to have 69,000 people without Rothesay, if one is going to have 81,000 and one is going to have 69,000, you may as well put Rothesay where they want to be. One of the commissioners, however, after the report they tabled to Parliament, said some people like the idea. I can tell you, on the street that simply wasn't the case. The town of Rothesay took an extraordinary initiative and commissioned a formal poll on this issue. These are very expensive things to do, these are things town councils don't like to spend money on if they don't have to. A mere 6% wanted to be in the riding of Saint John, disconnected from their sister community of Quispamsis, 87% said they'd prefer to be in the same riding as Quispamsis, outside Saint John. I think that information is quite conclusive. So it's not really a debate on population base with this particular objection: one is going to have 81,000, one is going to have 69,000, so you may as well put the people of Rothesay where they want to be.

This particular issue in the southern end of the province has generated an immense amount of media attention, and the principal editorial in the Telegraph Journal rallied around Rothesay's decision to commission the poll and to try to preserve the community of interest in keeping the Kennebecasis Valley intact. That's that objection.

I'd prefer that we move towards the second one, then we can talk about both questions.

The second objection stems from the issue of Kars, Springfield, and Studholm in the northern part of Kings County. As you know, the commission has used parishes quite often in drawing their maps. It does provide them with some flexibility to be able to put different populations in a different area. As you would likely imagine, most people don't know what parish they live in. Chances are they know what county they live in. But these three parishes would now go into a riding that would go all the way down to Saint Stephen, the only three parishes on the east side of the Saint John River, the only three parishes in Kings County that would be taken away from Kings County itself.

Where it becomes really problematic--and I'll show some other pictures here in a few seconds--is with the parish of Studholm. There's a town right here called Sussex, which is really a service centre for almost the entire farming community. To give the commission credit, putting Albert County back into Fundy--Royal makes a lot of sense. But this is where the people who live here go to church, where they go to school, where they shop. This is a farming community, and they're going to be connected to a riding that will go as far as Saint Stephen. The reason the commission went down that track is that the riding of St. Croix is extremely poor in population.

I was a little surprised. It's easy for a council to pass a motion in open session. In the town of Sussex they actually did that, because they recognized that the people who lived just north of them really have an immense community of interest with them. This part of rural New Brunswick, doesn't really have a municipality to defend itself, but they do have an entity known as a local service district. This usually doesn't engage on larger public policy issues, especially on federal issues, but they actually met and wrote me a letter panning this particular issue, the people from the parish of Studholm itself.

To give you some more illustrations about what this means, remember that I said Sussex was the principle hub of that area. Here's the “Welcome to Sussex” sign, which is actually outside the riding if you move that parish of Studholm. There's a community known as Apohaqui, the home of Frank McKenna, I might add, just down the street from where I live. If you look at your roadmap, it's the only community on route 121 that follows the Kennebecasis River. There are homes that were built as early as the 1830s and 1840s--I happen to own one of them. If you go from route 121 all the way from Hampton to Sussex, there's only one village that's been carved out of the riding of Fundy as proposed, and that's the community of Apohaqui. What it comes down to is that if you happen to be on the north side of that river--it's not a big river at that point--half the village is in St. Croix, and the other half in Fundy. You go to church in St. Croix now, but most people would actually live on the other side of the river.

So the proposal I'm suggesting the committee review is that the 5,500 persons who live in Kars, Studholm, and Springfield be added to the riding of Fundy, in addition to Rothesay, which would make it plus 16% on the variance scale. It was 0.67%, right now I'm minus 4%, and I'm proposing to go up to plus 16%.

¼ (1805)

You will notice that there's still a bit of a beige spot on the other side of the river. There'd be two parishes that would be in the riding of St. Croix. They would have a similar problem with community of interest, but not to the same extent as Kings County folks do, because they start to migrate towards Fredericton eventually. That seems to be the line. But there is one short-term community of interest that has merit. The provincial riding of Oromocto--Gagetown already has parts on both sides of the river, so that would almost mirror Oromocto--Gagetown provincially. That's why that's a little bit less of a sin.

The Chair: Can you just review the three you wanted included? There are Studholm, Springfield, and Kars, but they're already in this map.

Mr. John Herron: No, they're not.

The Chair: According to the one I have, they are.

Mr. John Herron: No, we're going to get to that map. That's a dissenting report by one of the commissioners.

The Chair: Well, lo and behold, I didn't notice that. Oh, I do see. Page 82 is the map we're supposed to be looking at.

Mr. John Herron: That's a dissenting report.

The Chair: All right. That makes it clear. I couldn't figure out what the heck you were talking about.

Mr. John Herron: Do you see the three parishes?

The Chair: Yes, we see them.

Mr. John Herron: Now it may make a little more sense to you.

The Chair: So if you have to choose between Rothesay and this one, which one?

Mr. John Herron: I'm going to get to that in a second.

The Chair: Okay, sorry.

Mr. John Herron: Those are the two objections. Adding both of them still only makes me plus 16%.

The Chair: Right. And the other ridings?

Mr. John Herron: Saint John would be minus 4%. The riding of St. Croix is already minus 13%, and it would go to minus 21%.

Here's what I propose as an option for the committee to take a look at. If you look at the riding of St. Croix, it has a unique island-like nature, Grand Manan Island, Campobello Island, and Deer Island. It takes about two hours to get to Grand Manan by ferry. The member of Parliament in our caucus, Greg Thompson, likes to remind us of that quite often. Although that may not be a large riding, especially by western Canadian standards, from a travel time perspective, because of the three islands, it presents unique representation challenges, provincially and federally. As the commission already made it minus 13%, they recognize that to some degree. I'm proposing that it go to minus 21%.

¼ (1810)

The Chair: Because they're harder to service?

Mr. John Herron: It's because one of the three principles under the act is manageable geographical size.

Ms. Libby Davies: What are they now?

Mr. John Herron: They're minus 16%, and the commission was trying to move them to minus 13%.

Ms. Libby Davies: So Kars, Springfield, Studholm, and Rothesay you want back, and that these three islands are difficult to service, relatively speaking, would be an argument for the St. Croix riding being considerably below the variance.

Mr. John Herron: Precisely.

Ms. Libby Davies: And then you would be what, with those communities back in?

Mr. John Herron: That would make me plus 18%.

There is another solution I'm going to refer to here. The Fundy--Royal component of Saint John County has 5,500 persons in it. You can add that to the city of Saint John, and 5,500 people live in Springfield, Kars, and Studholm.

Ms. Libby Davies: You want to put them in Saint John.

Mr. John Herron: They would go into Saint John.

Ms. Libby Davies: What does that do to Saint John, though?

Mr. John Herron: They're minus 4%, and this would probably put them flat even.

The Chair: Is that Simonds and Saint Martins?

Mr. John Herron: Yes. Simonds is where everybody would go to high school now.

The Chair: To clarify, Saint John County is Simonds and Saint Martins?

Mr. John Herron: Yes.

The Chair: So basically, you want to redraw the map in the lower half of New Brunswick.

Mr. John Herron: Remember that map? It's not just me who wants to redraw that map, it's one of the commissioners. There's a dissenting report in this commission. The commission wants to review this again. They've even said this out loud: we did our best as a compromise, we wish we could have done more, we knew we shouldn't have split Rothesay and Quispamsis. I think they're looking for an opportunity to revisit this issue.

¼ (1815)

The Chair: Do you like the map otherwise on page 88?

Mr. John Herron: I can tell you what it does.

The Chair: It doesn't give you Rothesay back.

Mr. John Herron: It's not really what I want, it's what the communities want. The communities want to have Quispamsis and Rothesay together.

The Chair: Right, wherever they go.

Mr. John Herron: Although the poll said they don't want it to be in Saint John, that map does keep Rothesay and Quispamsis together, but it adds them to Saint John. To tell the truth, that's more problematic, and the map I have right now is more problematic in respect of the community of interest, separating the Kennebecasis Valley and sticking these three parishes way out of their traditional community of interest. So that map is better than the two problems I have right now, but I think my solution of letting Greg's riding go small, exchanging the Saint John County portion of Simonds and Saint Martins for Springfield, Kars, and Studholm, and adding Rothesay into Fundy--Royal makes more sense.

The Chair: Just to clarify, Saint Martins parish and Saint Martins are not in the map on page 88.

Mr. John Herron: Right.

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: I have to admit I'm a little bit confused.

Does the dissenting opinion on pages 88 and 89 only affect those three ridings? The areas that are in grey on that map, would they be the same? Could one fiddle around here without affecting them?

Mr. John Herron: To the best of my knowledge, the answer is yes.

Mr. Scott Reid: All right. That was the first thing.

Were you actually advocating essentially what the dissenting commissioner was saying or not?

Mr. John Herron: No. There's a lot of information here, and now we'll make it simpler.

There are three parishes on the east side of the Saint John River that are in Kings County. If those three parishes are added to a riding that goes all the way to Grand Manan and Saint Stephen, and there's not a lot of population right on the county lines of Kings and Queens, they're really kind of stuck there by themselves. In particular, the largest employer in the greater Sussex area is just outside the riding, the Potash Corporation of Saskatchewan. So we'll bring those three in. The only way I can do that--and you can't have everything--is to put Saint Martins and Simonds in Saint John and fix the loss of community interest of Studholm, Kars, and Springfield. That'll give you a population of 81,000.

The Chair: When we come to consider this, we'll have to get the counts on Simonds, Saint Martins, Studholm, Springfield, Kars, Rothesay, and Quispamsis, then figure out three or four different computations.

Mr. Scott Reid: It's like looking at all the different war plans for Iraq. There are all these different contingencies.

Mr. John Herron: I would say to Mr. Reid that one of the reasons it's this problematic is that the commission didn't agree.

Mr. Scott Reid: I agree. This is really different.

Can I ask another question? I was looking at the issue of St. Croix being too small, 21% down, and Fundy going up in population. There are some towns that are on the border. You didn't mention all the rural townships. I'm looking at Kingston, and there's one just to the west of Kingston as well. What if they were to be moved in to compensate?

¼ (1820)

Mr. John Herron: It's one of the oldest communities within European Canada. The Kingston peninsula was slated for St. Croix in the original draft proposal. They rallied en masse. Kingston used to be a shire town, it used to be the capital of Kings County. They really had a huge problem with that issue. There were three presentations made at the hearing on that very point. The Saint John River is the natural line.

Mr. Scott Reid: They prefer being in Fundy.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Thompson didn't put in any opposition to the inclusion of those little communities into his riding. You're suggesting now that they should be taken away from him. He hasn't said he cannot service them, with the Grand Manan, as well as the other areas, he seems to think he can service them. Why do you think he can't service those areas? Has he said to you he can't service them?

Mr. John Herron: Members of Parliament are entitled to their own opinion, this is why we're here. What I've tried to present is what Quispamsis and Rothesay said. I tried to present what Studholm said when their local service district made their presentation as well.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's right and good, Mr. Herron, I appreciate that, but if there are changes made from one boundary to another, it affects another member of Parliament, certainly another constituency.

Mr. John Herron: Let me answer the question this way. Any member of Parliament should be very happy to get new territory and sad to lose territory. I wouldn't think, politically, anybody would make a presentation too often and say, I don't want to have these people.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's funny, you just said you didn't want Saint John.

Mr. John Herron: I was very worried about going on that track. Those two areas, of 5,500 persons, I recognize have a better community of interest connection with Saint John, because people drive into Saint John and work, than in the problem I have with Springfield, Kars, and Studholm. I was trying to do the right thing for these 5,500 persons. When I filed these two objections, I filed them separately. I knew I couldn't get both that easily without having to make a decision, and Saint John County has a community of interest with the city of Saint John. I just think it was the right thing, and the math just happened to work out too.

The Chair: Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: I think I've got this right. You basically agree with a dissenting opinion of the commission accepting that you would keep Rothesay and Quispamsis. You don't want to see them split. They haven't been split under the dissenting opinion, but they've put them in Saint John, right?

Mr. John Herron: The other thing I would say is that because of numbers, nothing west of the Saint John River would go into Fundy either.

Ms. Libby Davies: Okay, but the question I've got is on the argument of not splitting those two communities, Rothesay and Quispamsis. It looks from here that they would fit better with Saint John than with Fundy. I understand about their not being split, but what is your argument as to why they should be in Fundy, as opposed to Saint John?

Mr. John Herron: A poll said 87% of the people want to be part of Quispamsis and Rothesay outside the city of Saint John.

Ms. Libby Davies: They don't see themselves as part of Saint John at all. What is the centre they most identify with?

Mr. John Herron: It's called the Kennebecasis Valley. The Kennebecasis Valley is made up of two entities, Quispamsis and Rothesay. Of course, they have an interest in Saint John, but those 25,000 or 30,000 persons who live in those two towns see themselves as an identifiable block on their own. When they aspire to common sewage, common water, they share police, they share fire, they share emergency services, they share a library, they're one entity.

¼ (1825)

Ms. Libby Davies: But under the dissenting one they're still together, but with Saint John.

Mr. John Herron: To be fair, I don't like that dissenting opinion much, but in preserving community of interest, it does a better job than the proposal.

The Chair: I would just clarify for Ms. Davies that Saint Martins would also go with Saint John. That's what Mr. Herron's proposing.

Ms. Libby Davies: Yes, I understand that.

Mr. John Herron: And for the record, Madam Chair, it's the area with the most picturesque vistas in the whole province.

The Chair: Yes, you did compliment them. He's trying to be nice as he sends them on their way.

What about Waterborough?

Mr. John Herron: Any part of Kings or Queens County.... I haven't touched on the riding name, and I'll do this very quickly. That was a nice segue into it. One of the founding ridings of Canada is the riding of Royal, known as Kings and Queens. I'm making a proposal as well that the riding should not be Fundy, it should be Fundy--Royal, because it's composed of the areas of Kings, Queens, and Albert, named for Prince Albert. So I think it makes an immense amount of sense. Royal is a founding riding of Canada.

The Chair: So on the issue of Waterborough?

Mr. John Herron: The issue of Waterborough being added into Fundy? Let me look at the map.

The Chair: The map is on page 82.

Mr. John Herron: With Waterborough, Brunswick, and Havelock, that's fine. It's already in the existing riding of Fundy--Royal.

The Chair: No, I was going to say, what if Waterborough were joined up with Johnston and Wickham? Do a lot of people live in Waterborough?

Mr. John Herron: Not that many. My proposal is about maintaining county lines. If you're in Saint John County, you're in Saint John riding. If you're in Kings County, you're in Fundy--Royal. If you're in Queens County, if you followed that county line and put it all in St. Croix, that would not be an ill-contrived decision, people would understand that.

The Chair: So adding Brunswick and Waterborough to Johnston and Wickham, that's the line for Queens?

Mr. John Herron: Yes.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. John Herron: That's not a silly comment by any means.

The Chair: Okay. So it would be Fundy, Kings....

Mr. John Herron: It's still named after Prince Albert. If the historical patterns matter, that's a founding riding of Canada.

The Chair: Does anybody else have a question or comment?

Thank you very much for appearing before us, Mr. Herron. I'm glad you were the last one, because our heads are spinning now.

Mr. John Herron: It was a difficult job they had, because of the constitutional entitlement of 10 ridings in a small province.

The Chair: Yes. As my colleague Brent St. Denis likes to point out, his riding is bigger than the entire province of New Brunswick. Of course, Nancy Karetak-Lindell would have other comments.

We need to finish the Manitoba report.

Ms. Libby Davies: There is more to do on New Brunswick.

The Chair: We could have some discussion about New Brunswick as well.

¼ (1830)

Ms. Libby Davies: Do we have other representations on New Brunswick?

The Chair: Just Mr. Thompson, who's not here. We're going to try to figure out when we can hear him.

[Proceedings continue in camera]