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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, May 15, 2003

1540

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

The Honourable Anne McLellan (Edmonton West, Lib.)

1545

1550

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

1555

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

1600

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

1605

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

1610

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

1615

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Hon. Anne McLellan

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.)

1620

1625

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

1630

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

1635

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

1640

Mr. Tony Tirabassi

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. James Robertson (Committee Researcher)

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish (Mississauga Centre, Lib.)

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

1645

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

1650

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

1655

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

1700

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.)

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

1705

1710

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

1715

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

1720

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

1725

Mr. Scott Reid

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

1730

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

1735

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Stan Keyes

1740

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Marcel Proulx

1745

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Stan Keyes

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

1750

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

Mr. Stan Keyes

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 010

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, May 15, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹ (1540)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order.

We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment. We are part of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

We're very pleased to have with us today, appearing from the city of Edmonton, the wonderful Minister of Health, Anne McLellan.

Ms. McLellan, tell us what you want to tell us of your objection to what is currently proposed to your riding.

The Honourable Anne McLellan (Edmonton West, Lib.): I will indeed.

Thank you very much,

[Translation]

Madam Chair, and members of the committee.

[English]

for inviting me here this afternoon to say a few words about what the Electoral Boundaries Commission in the province of Alberta proposed, as it relates to the redrawing of electoral districts in the Edmonton region.

As you may be aware, their proposed changes include my electoral district of what is now called Edmonton West. It would be given a new name of Edmonton Centre if the proposals of the commission were accepted.

I wish to have you consider my motion of objection to the report of the commission on the basis that traditional communities of interest and identity will be negatively affected by some of the commission's decisions. While the riding name may be changed easily, the communities of interest and identity are not changed so easily.

I am mindful and wish to advise you that the initial proposal of the Electoral Boundaries Commission for Alberta, with respect to Edmonton area ridings, did reflect the interests and identities of the concerned communities while, in my opinion, their final report does not. I will explain why.

I am of the view that the recommendations of the commission should be revised to ensure that the boundaries for Edmonton Centre include the communities of Riverdale, Boyle Street, and McCauley. Furthermore, the communities of Spruce Avenue and Westwood should be placed within the riding of Edmonton East.

Edmonton has an interesting character that is exhibited throughout the whole region. Dating to 1917, Edmonton has grown, using a community league structure that has influenced the organization of the city. In fact, colleagues, while other cities in other provinces and even our own province, have ways of organizing themselves, Edmonton is the only city in the country that has adopted this particular community league structure. It's one that I think has been quite successful in terms of providing a locus and focus for community member interests and activities.

Through the community league structure, Edmonton has had educational programs delivered and social and recreational programs developed and delivered. The community league structure has been used to represent the member community league's views to the municipal, provincial, and federal levels of government.

In 1999 the Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues embarked upon a revitalization process resulting in the revision of their governing structure. Integral to the process of revitalizing the community leagues of Edmonton was the division of the city of Edmonton into various districts. The districts are eligible to elect one representative to the federation's board of directors.

For your reference, as an appendix to my presentation, I include a copy of the organizational chart and map resulting from this revitalization process. It is the coloured map you have in front of you.

It is of importance for you to know that the initial proposal of the commission was reflective of the Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues' geographic districts E and F. Thereby, it reflected clearly and, in my opinion, appropriately the self-identified community of interest of the Edmonton area community leagues.

The commission's final recommendations fail to recognize the communities of interest and identity in relation to the communities of Riverdale, Boyle Street,and McCauley. My proposal would respect and leave intact the Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues' geographic districts E and F.

For colleagues' consideration, McCauley, Boyle Street, and Riverdale is the little chunk in the far right corner of district F.

In a similar vein, the commission recommends that the communities of Spruce Avenue and Westwood be placed in Edmonton Centre, contrary to the geographic district structure of the Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues.

In district G, at the far east border, you have Westwood and Spruce Avenue. In fact, the commission has recommended that those two community areas be put into Edmonton Centre, whereas all the rest of district G is in Edmonton East. The established geographic districts of the Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues would see, as I've mentioned, the communities of Spruce Avenue and Westwood included within the electoral boundaries of Edmonton East along with the rest of district G.

¹ (1545)

Similarly, Edmonton's business community organizes itself through its business associations, creating what we call in our community business revitalization zones or BRZs. Here too the initial proposal of the Electoral Boundaries Commission for Alberta recognized the self-identified community of business interest.

It is my view that the geographic boundaries of the business associations of Alberta Avenue, the Downtown Business Association, and the 97th Street Area Business Association should be respected. Respecting this unity of interest and identity would therefore be described as follows. Here, bear with me because I'm going to give you avenues and streets. I think you all have the presentation, so it's maybe less important. You can refer to that after my presentation.

But first, the Alberta Avenue Business Association BRZ extends along 118th Avenue from 106th Street to Wayne Gretzky Drive. To respect the boundaries of the Alberta Avenue Business Association, the communities of Westwood and Spruce Avenue would have to be included in the Edmonton East electoral boundaries.

All of the communities in this BRZ would thereby be included in one electoral district, which is east, instead of having it divided into two districts at 97th Street. The Downtown Business Association, BRZ, is found within 95th Street to 111th Street and from 104th Avenue to 97th Avenue. Again, moving the communities of Boyle Street, Riverdale and McCauley into the electoral district of Edmonton Centre would reflect their indigenous communities of interest and identity. Those three areas are clearly included as an integral part of the Downtown Business Association, and I have all the rest of the Downtown Business Association in Edmonton Centre, as proposed under these new boundaries.

By having the eastern boundary of Edmonton Centre set at 97th Street, another business community has its identity and interest negatively impacted. The 97th Street and Area Business Association BRZ includes both sides of 97th Street in addition to an area on 95th Street moving further east. Again, by moving the communities of Boyle Street, McCauley, and Riverdale into the electoral district of Edmonton Centre, this would permit the whole of this business association to fall within a single electoral district, avoiding splitting representation among two federal ridings and two members of Parliament.

Let me say, and I know other cities probably have similar things, that BRZs have become an important part of the structure for the business community of our city, and there is a community of interest. For example, if you look at the 118th Avenue BRZ, the business people there raised $1.5 million as part of a revitalization project for their community, but they all worked together. What this proposal does is split that business district up, which then creates some confusion and divides what is a well-established group of people who have a shared interest and are used to working together, and are used to working together at all three political levels to ensure their voice is heard.

The city of Edmonton's downtown area includes what may be regarded as fringe communities whose interests are not uniquely commercial. That expression “fringe communities” is not mine; it is the official language of the City of Edmonton. These communities would include Boyle Street, McCauley, and Riverdale. Their shared commonality of interests and location should, where possible, and it is possible here, be included in the same electoral district.

The city of Edmonton's own identification of community interests and identity would have these downtown fringe communities of Westmount, Queen Mary, Central, McDougall, McCauley, Oliver, River Valley, Boyle Street, and Riverdale all included within Edmonton Centre. All but the three I've identified are in the centre. It's those three that for whatever reason were broken off.

The changes I propose will maintain established communities of interest intact, and I would say in some cases, such as Boyle, McCauley, and Riverdale, historic communities.

¹ (1550)

I realize that we do need to consider the population of Edmonton Centre with the changes I proposed. My proposals are not out of line with what the commission recommends, as their own report has Edmonton Centre at 12% above the quotient number for Alberta. The quotient for Alberta is 106,243 voters and the commission's proposal would have my new riding of Edmonton Centre at 119,044 voters or 12% above the quotient.

If you take my proposal, the quotient would be 14%, which is well below the permitted deviation of plus or minus 25%. It is clear when one examines the nature of the riding that a core portion of the community is high density, with a significant transient population, as is expected with downtown urban ridings.

Comfort can be taken from a review of other ridings, showing that, for example, Vancouver--Sunshine Coast, is at 15% above the quotient. North Vancouver is at 11, Mississauga—Cooksville at 13.52, and so on and so forth.

One thing I would say is that the potential for growth within this riding, as I've described it, if you're looking 10 years out, is not that great. The growth is going to come only from central core urban infill because it is in the centre of the city. It's not like southwest or east, where in fact you can push the boundaries of the city. That's not possible in Edmonton Centre. Any potential growth will not come from new suburbs and communities being added. It will simply come from infill, which I'm not suggesting could not be significant, but that's the nature of any growth that takes place. We've not seen that much growth historically in the downtown core of Edmonton.

We all understand the need for a member of Parliament to be able to serve the needs of all constituents who find themselves in a particular riding. When determining the boundaries of electoral districts, it is imperative that commonality of interests and history, which provide for a sense of cohesion within communities, be preserved and respected.

I am convinced that the inclusion of the communities of Riverdale, Boyle Street, and McCauley within Edmonton Centre would respect the real linkages and community of identity that exists in Edmonton today and that has been planned for by the city well into the future. This pertains as well to the inclusion of the communities of Spruce Avenue and Westwood within Edmonton East.

As I've mentioned, you will find appended to these remarks a reference map illustrating what the electoral district of Edmonton Centre would look like should you agree that my proposal be accepted. I thank you for letting me come here today and offer my views. Thank you very much. Merci beaucoup.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Madam Minister.

I have questions from Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister.

When I look at the proposition from August, these sections were in Edmonton Centre. In the last report they filed in March, they've been switched. What happened? Did anybody go to the hearings in, what was it, August or September or October? Why did they change them again?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Quite truthfully, I don't know. We went to the original hearings. Now I'm saying I'm sure there are those who do know, but if you're asking me, do I know why they took them off, no, I don't, because in fact we went and made an argument for their original proposal. It made no sense to us to do what they did in relation to these communities.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: When you were talking to the original proposal, you went to the hearings in October and told them they were doing well, as far as what they are proposing.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, and we made our arguments as to why. Then of course they took all those, as you know, and issued this.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding this properly. Fine, thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): That was my question too. You made a presentation to the commission about why the changes afterwards, but the original proposal from the commission did in fact keep Westwood where you suggest it should be.

Hon. Anne McLellan: In the east, and it included these three communities in the centre.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Exactly. That was the proposal that was put in place. You went to them and said, this is wonderful, leave it alone, we really like it because it does fall within the community of interest. And then when they came back with this one, you can see they squared it off, and I guess....

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, they drew a line.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: They did. They drew a line and then....

Hon. Anne McLellan: Unfortunately, they didn't reflect upon either the business or the community or historic interest.

¹ (1555)

Mr. Rick Borotsik: But 97th, for example--you indicated that 97th was the business district. I know 97th. Under your proposal 97th would stay in Edmonton East then.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, Westwood and Spruce Avenue, which are to the west of 97th, would stay in Edmonton East.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: They would do that.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, that's right.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): I'm just trying to follow. I have two maps that you've given me here. This map, which has the proposal as it was in the preliminary August report, with a slight addition down in the southwest corner of the riding, is actually what you are proposing. Is that correct?

Hon. Anne McLellan: No, no. We're talking about up here. I'm not talking about this at all, sorry. We're talking about here.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay. I know you're talking about that, but what I'm getting at is this map that was in your package.

The Chair: Sorry, we don't have that.

Mr. Scott Reid: I guess I'm trying to get at this point. Are you just simply proposing to go back to the August boundaries, or is it something similar to the August boundaries?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Pretty much, no, the August boundaries, and they added this.

Mr. Scott Reid: They added that.

Hon. Anne McLellan: What you see down here, I did not address in my remarks. We didn't talk about this. It was included in the original proposal, which is what we were happy with. In fact, we would be very happy if that were included.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay.

The Chair: That's Elmwood.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, down here. We would be very happy if that were included as in the original proposal. But I wanted to talk to you about these communities up here because here they are, in my opinion, destroying the historic community of interest.

The Chair: Mr. Reid, do you mind, just to clarify, in the original proposal what I think is Elmwood was not included. It came to you in their second round.

Hon. Anne McLellan: I guess the reality is we have no concern with this.

The Chair: But it does complete the corner of E, is all I was trying to--

Hon. Anne McLellan: Okay, fine. Look, we're perfectly happy with that. I identified my concerns; everything else doesn't matter.

Mr. Scott Reid: I should explain why I'm asking these questions. First of all, we actually have to make a recommendation based on knowing exactly where all the lines are. Secondly, we also have to work out the population for the riding, as you're suggesting it, and the populations of all the ridings that will be affected.

I just want to make sure, since your suggestions affect Edmonton East, obviously. This particular suggestion, going one way or the other, would have an impact on the population of Edmonton's Spruce Grove as well, and of course on Edmonton Centre.

Hon. Anne McLellan: This is small down here. But as I say, if you accepted my proposal, which really more or less represents the original proposal of the commission, as I say, the quotient goes from plus 12 to plus 14.

Mr. Scott Reid: Right. I was just looking at it, actually, and it's 119,000, but that's without having Elmwood in, I believe.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes.

Mr. Scott Reid: But what does it do to Edmonton?

The Chair: Mr. Goldring appeared before us and had a number of suggestions. He was concerned about Lago Lindo.

He didn't actually give us this lovely colour-coded map with all the communities. So now we can figure out where Lago Lindo is.

Mr. Cyr, you're getting the numbers for us.

Do you see it up near the top, in the pale yellow at the top of B, Lago Lindo?

º (1600)

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, it's way up here at the city boundary. It's way up north.

The Chair: Mr. Cyr.

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): In the area of Westwood and Spruce Avenue, we have roughly 5,000 persons.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is that north or south?

Mr. André Cyr: As you see on the screen, it's east of the airport.

The Chair: Are we proposing taking Westwood and Spruce Avenue out? Yes. And the Elmwood piece?

We have Mr. Cyr from Elections Canada, who has these wonderful maps with all kinds of bells and whistles and a laser pointer to indicate areas on the map.

Mr. Cyr.

Mr. André Cyr: It's 12,000 people. In the larger area of this area there are 212, but the way the census blocks are made, it follows the river. They're rather large. The area would be around 12,000 people, the downtown area.

Hon. Anne McLellan: McCauley, Boyle, and Riverdale.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What you're asking is, the new section added, south of 112th Avenue and west of 82nd Street....

Hon. Anne McLellan: This is way too technologically advanced for me.

Actually, on 112th Avenue and 82nd Street there is a little smidge that is not included in McCauley, Boyle, and Riverdale. There's a little smidge that's included in district G.

I'm looking at the community league now.

Mr. André Cyr: There's a little bit missing.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes.

The Chair: Minister, we're not from Edmonton, and one of the things we try to think about is what constituency staff are doing. People are going to be saying, “Hi, I'm calling to talk to my member of Parliament”. They'll be asked, “Where do you live? Are you north or south of this, or east or west of that?” But in the community of Edmonton, in addition to that, do people say, “I'm in Mayfield”, or “I'm in Oliver”, so that the constituency staff know exactly where the person is?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes. In fact--

The Chair: So they'd be more inclined to say, “I live in Oliver”, than to say, “I live south of 104th Avenue”?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes.

º (1605)

The Chair: Okay.

Hon. Anne McLellan: In fact, that's why keeping these communities together, as represented by the community leagues, is so important. They identify. There are reasons the community league divided this up. It wasn't haphazard. It was on the basis of historical interest. It was on the basis of communities and families living beside each other for decades, and people sending their kids to school in areas like Oliver for decades.

That's why we were pleased with the original proposal, because it respected the historical reality of our community. In a downtown core, that is even more important. There are lots of forces in downtown communities that work against cohesion, that work against a community of interest. The community leagues and their acceptance by the public help to create one focal point of cohesion for people who live in the downtown core of Edmonton.

The Chair: To be clear, the children of Riverdale go to school either in Riverdale or in Boyle or McCauley. They don't go to school in Forest Heights.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, except for the fact that in the city of Edmonton--and we view this as one of the strengths--you can go to any school you want.

The Chair: Right.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Fortunately, from my point of view, we are not a community where you are necessarily restricted.

Let's face it, these are poorer communities. Riverdale isn't, but McCauley and Boyle Streets are not well-off communities. But the kids there can go to any school in the city—any public school, or within the Catholic system, if they chose. They're bused. So they can go to the best high school, even though they come from Boyle, which is one of the poorest areas in the city of Edmonton.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: We've heard other members seek changes to their proposals. How come this is the first time we've heard about community leagues? How come the other members haven't talked about it? Is it more of an issue in the core area than it would be in the suburbs particularly?

Hon. Anne McLellan: I don't know. Maybe other people have a different focus for their concerns; maybe it's more geographic streets or avenues or something. But I have always believed community leagues are actually one of the things that makes our city unique and provides a sense of cohesion, focus, and identity.

We take our community leagues very seriously. We serve our constituency.

When the chair says people proudly identify...do you know what? Each one of these community leagues has their own little monthly newspaper. The MP, the local MLA, and the councillors can all put messages in those monthly publications. We can put notices of whatever kind. That's again how the community keeps in touch with one another.

So for us, community leagues are the heart and soul of the city of Edmonton, and I think if you talked to most Edmontonians, they would agree with.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: I'm just trying to figure out the community leagues here, from the map. I see the coloured areas are indicated as being community league districts. But are the actual community leagues associated with the individual names, like McCauley?

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes. Oliver, Prince Rupert, Inglewood, Mayfield...they're all community leagues.

Mr. Scott Reid: Right. So when you're talking about them having their own newspapers, and so on, would there be a newspaper for McCauley, for example?

Hon. Anne McLellan: They will have a little monthly one. Some, such as Oliver, have a newspaper in the sense of a newsprint tabloid. McCauley may have something like this, which is four-sided. The sophistication of the publication depends upon the relative wealth of the community league.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay. So has the line actually been drawn, under the current boundaries, through the middle of these things? Is that what's happening? Does that little curved line where Kingsway Avenue meets up with 97th Street kind of cut through these things?

I guess it does.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Where Kingsway...?

Mr. Scott Reid: I'm just looking at the street names, Kingsway Avenue and 97th Street, that curved area, which is the boundary in the latest boundary proposals....

Hon. Anne McLellan: Do you mean between districts F and G, Westwood and Spruce Avenue?

º (1610)

Mr. Scott Reid: I mean 97th Street, which is the eastern boundary of the riding as proposed by the boundaries commission. I'm just trying to figure out if that actually slices through these community league areas.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes.

Mr. Scott Reid: It does. Okay.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Do you see district G, 97th Street? The commission talks about 97th Street. It splits community league district G. What I'm saying is, move the line west to the boundary of district F, which keeps district F whole in Edmonton Centre and keeps district G whole in Edmonton East.

Mr. Scott Reid: Are districts F and G community interests, or are they just things that are put together? These aren't actual community leagues any more; these are groupings of community leagues. What do these mean?

Hon. Anne McLellan: These are districts. This was done after a complete reorganization by the Edmonton Federation of Community Leagues. They worked with each one of these communities to determine which district they thought most appropriate for each of these communities to be placed. It wasn't done haphazardly by them.

Mr. Scott Reid: I see.

The Chair: What does the F stand for and what does the G stand for?

Hon. Anne McLellan: They're just letters.

The Chair: No, but is there a grouping name to that group of community leagues?

Hon. Anne McLellan: No, it's district E, district F, district G--

The Chair: I see.

Hon. Anne McLellan: --and that's how they're organized. We have districts. They all send members to the federation executive. There are community league volunteer events organized by district and then organized throughout the whole city.

An hon. member: And they're Es or Fs?

Ms. Anne McLellan: Yes, that's right.

Mr. Scott Reid: Madam Chair, may I continue?

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Scott Reid: I was wondering here if you wouldn't accomplish the same goal, more or less, by using 101st Street instead of 97th Street as the boundary, because then you'd have McCauley, Boyle Street, and Riverdale all kept together. They'd be kept together in Edmonton East riding, instead of in Edmonton Centre, but the actual community leagues would not be split any more.

Hon. Anne McLellan: But they are not part of F and they are part of a district called F. That's my argument. That was done quite deliberately. When the community leagues determined how they wanted to organize these districts, that was determined as a community of interest. In fact, if you look at Central McDougall and McCauley, which are two inner city areas where I do a great deal of work, those two areas are identical in social need, in the kinds of social and economic challenges they face.

This is the whole point, right? This is why I think the federation got it right: they acknowledged the fact that there's a community of interest. As I say, to me it makes no sense to have McCauley in the east and Central McDougall in the centre, where in fact I know full well I serve most of those people anyway and they share the same kinds of social and economic challenges.

Mr. Scott Reid: Where does the boundary run right now on the eastern boundary of Edmonton Centre?

Hon. Anne McLellan: It's not Edmonton Centre.

Mr. Scott Reid: I'm sorry, I'm not sure what your riding is called, actually, right now.

Hon. Anne McLellan: We have Central McDougall--

Mr. Scott Reid: Right.

Hon. Anne McLellan: --but we do not have Rossdale.

Mr. Scott Reid: All right.

Hon. Anne McLellan: What they've done is they've lopped off, if you like, the west and they have decided that they want one more cohesive--but I take the point it would be relative--central, inner core riding. And my argument is, fine, if that's what you want to do, let's make sure we get most of those communities that have an historic identity.

The other thing is--and we shouldn't forget this either--we focused on the community leagues, but the business alignment, the business district zones, BRZs, are also organized in very much the same way. So there's a business community of interest as well that will be broken up and you'll have parts of BRZs in the centre and east, whereas our proposal would keep them whole--the three main BRZs we have will be kept whole, which is again important.

The Chair: The way it sounds, if you're going to listen to the local community and how they've already worked hard to organize themselves, if you had all of E and F, it would be two cohesive groups.

º (1615)

Hon. Anne McLellan: That would be my position.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik, a final question?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: No, I shouldn't. I was just looking at White Avenue, which is another business--

Hon. Anne McLellan: That's on the south side.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: No, I know that, but that's all in one riding too. It's all in Edmonton—Strathcona.

Hon. Anne McLellan: That's right. That's Mr. Jaffer's riding.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So that would be kept separate as a business.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes. I don't cross the river.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: No, but it would be a business district as well.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, absolutely.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It would be in one constituency, as opposed to split in two. I'm helping you with your argument.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Yes, I know. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, Minister.

Hon. Anne McLellan: My pleasure for being here. It's always fun to come and talk.

The Chair: About districts.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Can we ask questions about SARS?

The Chair: No.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Controlled, contained.

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, and have a good weekend.

Hon. Anne McLellan: Good luck with your job. I don't in any way envy you your task, because it's an important job, but a big job. So thank you very much.

The Chair: We're learning all about communities right across the country.

Thank you.

We'll now switch to Ontario. Colleagues, in this document it's map 12 on page 120.

Anytime you are ready, Mr. Tirabassi.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi (Niagara Centre, Lib.): Madam Chair, members of the committee, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to file my objection with the proposed riding of Welland, as proposed by the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Ontario.

First, I'm recommending that the town of Pelham--also referred to as Fonthill, but formerly the town of Pelham--with a population of 15,275, which is presently part of my riding of Niagara Centre, be also included in the new riding of Welland, for the following reasons.

Pelham has strong ties to the City of Welland in that the Town of Pelham shares its chamber of commerce with the City of Welland, also in the riding of Niagara Centre. Recently the Town of Pelham has partnered with the YMCA, the City of Welland, and Niagara College in Welland to construct a new recreation centre. A significant part of the funding came from the senior levels of government, in Ontario under the SuperBuild program, and of course the federal government's Canada-Ontario infrastructure program. Also Venture Niagara, a federally funded agency of Industry Canada, is located in Welland, but it is specifically mandated to serve the business communities of Welland-Pelham.

Other examples of communities of interest are the shared print media. For example, The Voice of Pelham, which is a weekly, has circulation in Welland, and vice versa, the Welland Tribune, which is a daily, has wide circulation in the town of Pelham.

Policing in the town of Pelham is provided by the Niagara Regional Police.

The physical characteristics of this town, the history of its growth within the Niagara region, the shared services, and the ordinary activities of its citizens have created a community of interest more closely associated with the city of Welland.

I also have here, but was not able to get it translated in time so I did not circulate it, a letter of support on this position from the mayor of the town of Pelham, Mr. Ralph Beamer.

Under the proposal, the town of Pelham is to be included with the riding of Niagara West, which includes part of the city of Stoney Creek, which takes us outside of the region of Niagara. I am proposing that the town of Pelham remain within what is currently Niagara Centre, the proposed city of Welland.

I will say that it's easy to come out and say this town, this particular area, should be part of my riding, or this riding, without recognizing that it creates problems for other areas. For instance, if we're going to add 15,000 to the riding of Welland, which by the way would still keep it within the quotient of 107,000 plus or minus 12%.... Currently the proposed riding of Welland is 109,000. If you take 15,000 on top of that you are at 124,000, approximately. So it would be within the tolerance of the quotient.

If indeed there is a suggestion I could make as to where the population could come from, since I'm suggesting that you remove 15,000 of the population of the town of Pelham from Niagara West, it could possibly come from the town of Dunnville, which has a population of 12,000, is very rural in nature, and would be more closely associated in character with the rural nature and characteristic of west Lincoln, Lincoln, and a significant part of the town of Grimsby above the escarpment.

I know this becomes a domino effect, and I must say, in the original go-round, when we did our first submission before the commission, we did an exhaustive exercise in finding exactly where indeed this might all settle out, this moving over of population. But since the commission has made some readjustments in their second draft, a lot of that no longer applies.

So I would ask, and I know it's not an easy chore, that if indeed the committee were to acknowledge inclusion of the town of Pelham in the riding of Welland, that the commission would have our previous arguments and submissions to go back and find how the population shift would work.

º (1620)

That's the first proposal I'd like to put forward.

On the second one, Madam Chair, with your indulgence and the indulgence and approval of the committee, I received a letter on April 17 from a constituent, which I had discussed. I forwarded this as part of my objection, or at least I thought I had to our clerk, only to find out that it was not included in the original motion.

So what I'm asking is if the committee will allow me to entertain the second one, which is of course the change of name of the riding, and I will refer to that now.

It's part of the handout I passed out.

The commission is recommending that what is currently Niagara Centre be named the new riding of Welland. If you look at the statistical sheet I handed out you will see that the city of Welland, with a population of 48,805 of a proposed riding total of 109,000, is less than 50%, so it doesn't make sense to us to name a riding after one city that has less than 50% of the population.

This is without the town of Pelham. If we were to include the town of Pelham it would add even more substance to my argument, because then the percentage of the city of Welland population would be even less, and it would still be called the city of Welland.

So I'm suggesting that the current name of the riding remain, Niagara Centre, and if you refer to the map, and you can use map number B--in all fairness, we'll exclude the town of Pelham, so I'll refer you to map B. For the following reasons I would recommend or suggest that it remain Niagara Centre.

If you look horizontally--and I know in the handout I put it vertically, but I think it's more horizontally--Thorold, South St. Catharines, Welland, Port Coborne, and Wainfleet line up horizontally in the centre of the Niagara Peninsula.

To give you some orientation, there's Lake Ontario to the north, Lake Erie to the south, the American border to the east, and therefore that dark outlined area horizontally lines up in the centre of the Niagara region, therefore Niagara Centre.

Population-wise, South St. Catharines, Welland, and Thorold comprise 77% of the total population of the proposed riding, again the very centre of the Niagara region. And for the purpose of consistency.... I know there's been some frustration among the constituents in my riding about this, and I'll give you a little history on it. In the last 15 years the core of this riding hasn't changed; that is to say, South St. Catharines, Thorold, and Welland. However, the riding name has been changed from what used to be Welland at one time to St. Catharines—Welland—Thorold, and I suppose that was a little too lengthy, and then they finally changed it to Niagara Centre, which is appropriate. Now they're proposing changing it back to Welland.

Constant name change leads to voter frustration, because people in South St. Catharines certainly don't see themselves as part of Welland, and of course it leads to confusion, which, when we talk about voter apathy, could be part of the problem as well.

So on my second point I'm recommending that what is now being proposed as the riding of Welland be renamed Niagara Centre, which is more fitting to what it is now.

Interestingly enough, the commission has also recognized regional location in naming the riding. They are proposing the adjacent riding be called Niagara West, adjacent to Niagara Centre. So it fits.

Those are my two submissions. If there are any questions, Madam Chair, I'd be glad to respond.

º (1625)

The Chair: We're wondering up here, muttering to ourselves, why there is no historic name that would work, like Brock, or Laura Secord, or something. I'm quite serious.

Mr. Scott Reid: In Quebec, ridings are all named after people.

The Chair: They are?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Mercier and Henri Bourassa....

The Chair: Is there no historic name that would describe the area?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: I'm sure there would be, and that in itself would make for, I'm sure, interesting discussion and competition. There's the Welland Canal, there's Brock, who you mentioned.

An hon. member: We could start now with Tirabassi.

The Chair: Tirabassi, Parent. So there's nothing that springs to mind quite obviously as a region.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: No. And I will tell you that people are quite happy with Niagara Centre, because it doesn't favour any one municipality over the other.

The Chair: Okay.

I wasn't clear on the piece between Merritt Street and the border. I can't tell where it is on your map.

Where are you sending that? In your proposals, are you keeping it?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: We are keeping it, yes. It's only the town of Pelham that I'm referring to.

The Chair: Okay. Where is Pelham?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: It is to the west of Thorold and Welland.

The Chair: It's west of Pelham Road.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Yes.

The Chair: On your map, do we see Pelham Road anywhere?

º (1630)

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: There is a Pelham Road in west St. Catharines.

The Chair: No, I mean in the booklet.

Can someone show him the book we're working with?

The map on page 100 is easier. Could you use the map on page 100?

If you look at the map on page 100, you're proposing to put Pelham in to join it to Thorold and Welland. Are you proposing to give up Wainfleet?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: No.

The Chair: No? Where is it on this map?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Madam Chair, I'm recommending that we accept the boundary commission's latest submission of Thorold, South St. Catharines, Welland, Wainfleet, and Port Colborne, but adding Pelham, which they've taken out.

The Chair: Then it's adding 15,000 people.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Correct.

The Chair: If we were to say that it seems like a lot of people to add, you said we could take a few people from some piece of the riding. Is it like the “W” in Wainfleet?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: No. It's Dunnville. As a matter of fact, I suggested that you might want to look to Dunnville.

The Chair: Where is Dunnville on this map?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: I'm sorry.

The Chair: Look at the map in the book on page 100.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Dunnville is to the south and west of the peninsula in Haldimand—Norfolk.

Mr. Scott Reid: Is Dunnville a separate municipality any more or has it been amalgamated into something?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: It used to be a separated municipality, but it's now part of what they call the region of Haldimand—Norfolk.

The Chair: Sorry, could I finish my question?

On the map, on page 100, if we are going to add Pelham to what is currently listed there as the riding of Welland, and we were to give up what is listed as the riding of Welland, Dunnville isn't marked here.

Is it like the “W” in Wainfleet on this map that you're looking at? Do you see the word "Wainfleet"?

A voice: Yes.

The Chair: Is Dunnville the top little piece?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: No.

The Chair: Where is Dunnville?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Dunnville would be to the south and west of the word “Wainfleet”.

The Chair: It's south and west, all right. It's closer to the “W” in Welland.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Yes.

It is in what is being proposed for the riding of Haldimand—Norfolk.

I'm recommending that you add 15,000 to the town of Pelham within the riding.

The Chair: In order to do that you might have to give up some piece of your riding. If you were to give up some piece of your riding, what piece would that be?

You said Dunnville. I figured Dunnville is currently in your riding and you're pushing it over to Haldimand—Norfolk. Is that correct?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: No.

The Chair: Do you want to take in Dunnville as well?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: No. If we include Pelham, what is now Hamilton West is where Pelham will come from.

The Chair: Yes, number 55. Right.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: It will leave Hamilton West with 15,000 less. That's where I'm suggesting Dunnville may fit.

The Chair: It will leave Haldimand—Norfolk and go into that riding.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Right. I want to be very careful because I know the challenges it creates. You start to get into a domino effect.

The Chair: Right.

Why do we have to keep asking questions? Do we actually understand it? Does anyone else have any questions?

º (1635)

Mr. Scott Reid: I have a strong sense that the population variations this would cause would more or less guarantee that the boundaries commission won't accept it. As an alternative, if Wainfleet was to be moved out of Welland riding and into Niagara West riding, in compensation for Pelham, would that be something you would be willing to consider as a possible alternative?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: It would be a viable alternative because Wainfleet is essentially very rural, as are the adjacent towns of West Lincoln and Lincoln. That would definitely be more of a fit.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay.

The Chair: Mr. Cyr, Hamilton East--Stoney Creek is over by 7.49. Welland is currently listed as being over by 2.85. If we were to take the 15,000, what does it put those two ridings...?

Sorry, Welland is listed as 1.15.

Mr. André Cyr: If we move Pelham to Welland?

The Chair: Yes.

We're all talking about the nicest wine region.

Mr. André Cyr: It was at plus 1% and now it's at plus 15%, at 124,000.

The Chair: Hamilton East--Stoney Creek.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: The new riding is Hamilton West.

Mr. André Cyr: It is Hamilton West—Glanbrook.

The Chair: Oh, sorry, Hamilton West.

Mr. Scott Reid: No. It is Niagara West.

Mr. André Cyr: I'm sorry. It's Niagara West—Glanbrook. Niagara West is minus 22%.

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: What happens if you then take Wainfleet and try balancing that one?

Mr. Scott Reid: Wainfleet.

The Chair: Niagara West—Glanbrook.

Mr. André Cyr: There is a bit more than 6,000 in Wainfleet, moving that into Niagara West.

The Chair: It's with Pelham, assuming that Pelham moved in.

Mr. André Cyr: That puts Niagara West—Glanbrook at minus 16%, 90,000.

The Chair: What does it leave Welland as?

Mr. André Cyr: Welland is plus 10%, 118,000.

The Chair: Okay.

Does anyone have any questions on the name change that has been requested, Niagara Centre?

Monsieur Godin.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Regarding the riding of Niagara Centre, were any complaints made to the Commission or were the people of the region generally receptive to the proposal?

[English]

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: There were no complaints or comments about Niagara Centre. There certainly were, again, from the town of Pelham and various municipalities, whether they were in or out. There were concerns raised when, again, it was suggested that it now be the riding of Welland.

Why are we changing it again? Fine, it is Niagara Centre.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Fine.

[English]

The Chair: Just to clarify, right now the riding of Welland has Port Colborne, Wainfleet, Welland, Thorold, and South St. Catharines?

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: As proposed.

The Chair: Okay.

Merci beaucoup. Thank you.

º (1640)

Mr. Tony Tirabassi: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Now we have Ms. Parrish, and your riding is on page 11 of this document, map 4, on page 104 in the hard book.

Mr. Scott Reid: Can I just ask a favour? It would make it much simpler for me to follow what's going on here.

We have the initial proposals of the commission from August. We have the March proposals, the most recent proposals of the commission. We don't have the status quo.

I wondered, Mr. Cyr, if you could, while the presentation is being made, just show the status quo on your computer. It would have been helpful if we'd had that during Ms. McLellan's presentation.

Mr. André Cyr: The brown lines on the screen are the status quo. Because of the projection of the province--

Mr. James Robertson (Committee Researcher): André, do you have the animated support map, the website one? I think that's the one that--

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish (Mississauga Centre, Lib.): Mr. Reid, can I point out something? The two things I'm doing are really simple. It's not anywhere near as complex as the last two. If you'll let me run through this, if you think you need it then, you can ask me. This one's a piece of cake compared to what you just went through.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay, fair enough.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: By the time we're done, it will be complicated.

The Chair: Yes, that's right. But André is very good. He'll probably do it while you're talking.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: André's probably going to blow my numbers, but what the heck.

The first one...and I don't like calling it an objection. I think it's a positive suggestion, and it's from the mayor of Mississauga, good old Hazel. I'm here presenting on behalf of the five Brampton and Mississauga trustees. It's a simple name change in the first one.

Peel Centre—if you look at the map I've provided, the region of Peel is made up of three areas. One is Mississauga, the second is Brampton, and the third, which is not on this map, is Caledon. The electoral commission rescrambled the egg. They took their original recommendations, which came out for public input, and they had only one MP, two MPPs, and city council object.

They rescrambled the whole thing. You wouldn't recognize it. It's a complete rescrambling. All of us who had no objection, under negative option billing, did not appear. I sent a letter to Mr. Kingsley, and he's acknowledged this is a fault in the system. If you don't object, it means you have a whole pile of MPs who are quite happy with the way it's coming down.

But what they've done, when they rejigged it, they came up with what we call a catch-all riding, which is Peel Centre, because we had an additional riding come into the area. First of all, it's not in the centre of Peel. If it were in the centre of Peel, it would be way up there somewhere.

Second, if you call it Peel Centre, nobody has a clue where it is--no one. So Mrs. McCallion has suggested...and I agree with her, and so do the other MPs in the area. I've highlighted the one sentence, which says that no one, whether a resident of Mississauga or Brampton, will identify with the name Peel Centre. It's geographically incorrect and it bears no resemblance to where it fits.

She would like it renamed Mississauga Centre—Brampton South, to acknowledge that you have a little piece of Brampton in there, and it does sit in the middle of Mississauga. There's no change of boundaries requested, although it is an abomination if you look at it. It is just what was left over when they did all the rest.

It's a simple name change, so when you're identifying it to somebody, they know where it sits.

The Chair: It's nobody's riding currently, but it probably has chunks of your riding.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: It has none of my riding.

º (1645)

The Chair: Okay.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: My riding is mostly in Mississauga—Erindale and Mississauga—Streetsville. It's just been mashed entirely like a stew; it's a mess. I don't think Peel Centre has anything of mine in it, so this is a very simple request.

The Chair: But it has Square One.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Then it must have some of my riding. I can't read maps. Does it have Square One in it, Mr. Cyr?

The Chair: He may not shop.

Mr. André Cyr: I think Elections Canada does not actually have interests in these.

The Chair: Shopping centres? It has Central Parkway, Eglinton, the 403. I'm pretty certain it has Square One.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: I don't think so. Square One is on the corner of Burnhamthorpe and Highway 10. It's in Mississauga—Cooksville, speaking as a real shopper.

So that one is straight. Does anybody have any questions on the straight name change, or to locate it geographically, or to give the balance to Mississauga and Brampton?

The Chair: Does anyone have any questions?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Frankly, it's not one I would die over. Mrs. McCallion is really sincere about this.

They're also trying to eliminate the region she's requested that the province get rid of. She thinks it's awful to have Peel commemorated for the next ten years; she'd like that name right out of there.

The Chair: Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: But as a member of Parliament, you know you have the power to change the name when that happens.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Yes, if I were to run in it. I'm not running in that riding.

Mr. Yvon Godin: You're not running in that riding? It will be a newly created riding.

[Translation]

The Chair: As far as the people are concerned, it's a brand-new riding...

[English]

It is a brand-new riding.

Mr. Yvon Godin: But the people in the community want that name changed?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Oh, yes. Peel has absolutely nothing to do with the majority of those people. It makes no sense.

The one I care very much about is the second one.

The Chair: Mississauga--Erindale?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Yes. Actually, this is an area I've served for 16 years, and hopefully I'll be running in this area. The riding of Mississauga—Erindale should be expanded to include the historic village of Erindale. As it is currently laid out, the historic village of Erindale is not included in the riding at all, a major oversight when considering the community identity of the area. If you're going to call it Erindale, you might as well have Erindale village in it.

Erindale village/Glen Sharon community, when you look at the map I've provided you.... I've just highlighted in yellow what I'm talking about. In the wiggly piece on the left half, there's a line dividing the highlighted yellow part. The left half is Erindale village; the right half is an area called Glen Sharon. The whole area, including the part north of Dundas, is known as Credit Woodlands. It's a very integral community. It goes to one secondary school.

The area called Erindale village--I also have the historical plaque that sits in the village--once went on both sides of Dundas. There's a church called St. Peter's on the hill, which was the first church for Erindale village. It's always gone on both sides of Dundas, so breaking it there is rather artificial.

The community have always considered themselves part of a larger geographical area known as Erindale Woodlands, where they have only one secondary school in their catchment area. Their two major streets continue south and north of Dundas, and I have photographs I'll walk you through in a minute. Credit Woodlands and Cedarglen Gate go across Dundas, and they're fairly major arteries--they go through both sides.

Although a very large land mass, the addition to Mississauga—Erindale includes a wide river valley, a golf course, a large Huron Park recreational complex. It's not as many people as it looks, although I'm absolutely convinced Mr. Cyr is going to give me the real number.

The addition of Erindale village to the riding would add 1,300 households; I know that from literature drops. But I didn't know the exact number of people, so I called the local councillor, and he told me there are between 3,000 and 3,500. I put in 3,000 because it looked better.

There is some room for Mississauga—Erindale to grow. You can see the ridings around it. Cooksville—Mississauga is 122,000; Mississauga South is 119,000; Mississauga—Streetsville is 118,000; and this one that I'm talking about is 114,000. So if you moved 3,000 from Mississauga South to Mississauga—Erindale you have an even better balance there. There's very little growth in either of those areas. We're not supposed to talk about growth at this committee anyway.

As you can see from the attached photographs, the Erindale name is included in many places of worship, recreational and social organizations, and landmarks. It would be a great oversight not to include these sites in a riding named after them. Having lived in the community adjacent to the proposed addition for 28 years and having served it for 16 years at two levels of government, I know the people in the proposed addition would be very pleased to be reunited with the northern half of their community of interest.

I'll just walk you through the pictures quickly. The village of Erindale has an official historical plaque on both sides of the road. The actual village is primarily on the south of Dundas, but people on the north side of Dundas consider themselves part of the same community. You can see how the houses are spread out in the second picture; it's not a tightly packed area of people.

It has Erindale Community Hall, of which I have two pictures. It's the oldest historical building in Mississauga. I'm sure having a riding called Erindale without this in it would be considered rather ludicrous by most of the residents. They have one of the original Lions Clubs there. They have Erindale Presbyterian Church. They have Erindale United Church.

º (1650)

The Chair: Were you out there on Easter Sunday taking these pictures?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: I was, actually, with my daughter.

And they have Erindale Landing.

On the next sheet you can see on the left, or the north side of Dundas, is the Credit Woodlands. On the south side they call it Credit Woodlands Court. It used to be one street, and the delivery people and ambulances got upset, so they changed the southern part of it to “Court”. But it was the Credit Woodlands and it just sliced right across Dundas. The next picture is of the corner of Dundas and Cedarglen Gate. Cedarglen Gate crosses both, and they haven't worried about the street names there.

What I am proposing is that the part in yellow be added into what's called Mississauga—Erindale. It takes a little chunk out of Mississauga South; it puts a little chunk into Mississauga—Erindale. It makes a lot of people very happy, and hopefully I'm going to be running in that riding, but I don't know. That would be the one I would choose, but I'm sure there are other people who will have something to say about it.

The Chair: Just to clarify, when they first consulted, this area on the map on page 4 was united. It may not have been in the same riding, but it was a grouping.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Yes, it was.

The Chair: Is it necessary to include the joggy bits by the Credit River, or is it--

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: The joggy bit by the Credit River, to the left of the line in the middle of that section--

The Chair: Along the Queensway West?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: That is Erindale village. The piece to the right, to the east of the line in the middle of the yellow spot, is called Glen Sharon. The reason I did it was that people in that whole area consider themselves Springfield, in Credit Woodlands area. Also I thought, being a map drawer by nature, continuing the line at the bottom of Mississauga—Cooksville right over to the river was very logical. I think Mr. Cyr could probably tell me the real numbers. I'm doing mine based on houses.

The Chair: Mr. Cyr.

Mr. André Cyr: The rough yellow area on screen, which basically matches yours, has a total of 6,000 people.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Really? But what you've done is go down; you've gone south. That yellow blob south is Mississauga Heights or Mississauga Road. That's not what I'm.... I'm counting it going across.

The Chair: You can use your electronic pointer there.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Oh, no, I can't.

Mr. André Cyr: The problem is that whole census block is one census block from Statistics Canada, and it covers south of the area you want; there are 970 in that area. But most of the streets it includes are in the area you're talking about.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: So if you just continued the Queensway and then followed the river up, you'd take 900 out?

Mr. André Cyr: No, the whole yellow area has 970 people. That's the smallest land area I can obtain with the system.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: So how many people would it be?

The Chair: We think roughly 6,000, which would still not make you that different. It would make Mississauga South 113,000 and your riding 120,000. Arguably, your riding is slightly denser.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: That area has, as I said, a huge park--Huron Recreation Centre. It has a golf course, and it has absolutely no use along the river. The little tail you had on it probably has 900, hasn't it?

Mr. André Cyr: I doubt there are a lot of people there, especially since if you look at Talka Court, Robinson, and Jarvis, all those streets are in the area you want to--

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Yes, they are, but when you go down Mississauga Road, there are quite a few.... Well, there are large houses on big lots. It's in my riding now.

The Chair: Okay, but it's less than or a maximum of 6,000.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Yes, it doesn't throw anything wildly out of whack anyway.

The Chair: Yes, Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: The question I've been asking a lot of witnesses is whether there was any area that could be given in compensation--and I don't know if that would be possible--in order to even up the population. You're right, it's not a big population shift, but I wonder if the boundaries commission would accept a population size of 120,000. It occurs to me there might be some area that could be shifted out of Mississauga—Erindale into Mississauga South in compensation.

º (1655)

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: You know, I would never want to disagree with Mr. Cyr, because he knows what he's doing. It's impossible that there are 9,000 people in there, because I have delivered flyers in there. It's 1,300 houses.

Mr. André Cyr: The finger that goes south of the Queensway?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Yes.

Mr. André Cyr: No, the whole yellow area is 900. If you distributed equally throughout the whole area, maybe there are 100 south of the Queensway in that finger along the river.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: What I'm saying is I find it hard to believe that there are 9,000 people in that--

Mr. André Cyr: No, 900.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: What was the number you gave me for the whole area?

Mr. André Cyr: It was 6,000.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Sorry, 6,000. I still find that a stretch. It's either that or my guys aren't delivering all my flyers, which happens, doesn't it?

That would put Mississauga South at 113,000 and it would put me at 120,000. Well, Mississauga Street fills 118,000. I don't think the world is going to end.

The Chair: Does anybody else have any questions?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: The other thing you could do is change the name of the riding, because you cannot call it Mississauga—Erindale without Erindale village in it. It's just illogical.

But the other thing you're going to have happen is the people south of Dundas in that funny-shaped area and the people north of Dundas along the river consider themselves one community—Erindale—Woodlands.

I'm sorry, Mr. Reid, you were going to ask me what you could give up. I can't imagine what you could give up because you have Halton on the left and Oakville.

The Chair: Mavis Road to the river is huge.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Eglinton is a fairly large barrier. It's a big six-lane road, and Mavis is another very splendid barrier. It's a big traffic road. The rest of this is quite logical. I can say, if you continued the Queensway, it ends at that corner where it starts to follow the river. The Queensway ends there. It's just a very logical thing to do, and I can't imagine what you'd lop off. It would make no sense to take any of it off.

[Translation]

The Chair: Mr. Godin.

Mr. Yvon Godin: In percentage terms, how does this riding compare with neighbouring constituencies?

Mr. André Cyr: If we add another 6,000 people to Mississauga—Erindale?

Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes.

[English]

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: I once served a riding with 350,000 people in it, so another 6,000 is not going to bother me.

[Translation]

Mr. André Cyr: Mississauga-Erindale is plus 12 per cent, and Mississauga South, plus 5 per cent.

The Chair: And Cooksville-Mississauga is larger than these two ridings.

Mr. Yvon Godin: Truthfully, this riding would represent a genuine community of interest.

[English]

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Yes, very much so.

In fairness to the electoral commission, when they rejigged this, they did go more for communities of interest than they did on their first run, because Mississauga South really does get united back the way it should have been. It was split in half. That big chunk of Erindale is very logical. That's all been reunited.

The only oversight, and it's just a small one, is that in this area there are a lot of people living there who have lived there for 35 or 40 years.

The Chair: Which in this part of the world is remarkable.

[Translation]

I believe there are no further questions.

[English]

Just where is the current riding you represent?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: It goes from where the 1 is in Mississauga—Erindale, Erin Mills Parkway, up to Eglinton, and it goes across Eglinton to Highway 10, down Highway 10, and it then follows this jog. I actually don't live in the new riding. I live in my old one. It followed the river further south down to Queen Elizabeth Way. It's been destroyed.

» (1700)

Mr. Scott Reid: Here Mississauga Centre is represented by the purple line up there, essentially. Is that right?

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: Yes. Actually, this doesn't help me. If I decide to run in this riding, I still don't live in it. I live south of the Queensway, slightly, but that's not an important factor to me.

When you look at it as an “L”, the bottom part of that “L”, that's the heart of Mississauga. It's been there for years. It's the oldest part of Mississauga and these people have always been together.

The Chair: Many people join with them on the QEW for hours each day.

Thank you very much, Ms. Parrish, and have a good week.

Mrs. Carolyn Parrish: I don't envy you your job, guys. Wow. When this is all over, you're going to know more than you ever wanted to know about every part of Canada. You just wait until I talk to that local councillor who gave me the numbers. He thinks he knows everything.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Ms. Ur is next, and your riding is on page--

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur (Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, Lib.): Can I just say something before we start, please?

As we were only notified late yesterday afternoon, I was only able to put a speech together in English. No disrespect to my French-speaking colleagues is meant. Would you have a problem if that was distributed, or do you want me to withhold it? I'm at your discretion. Is it okay if everyone gets a copy?

The Chair: I'm trying to figure out what page we're on. What's your current riding?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Lambton—Kent—Middlesex.

The Chair: Page 100. We have to go to the big map in this book and map 2 in the newsprint.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: I have a few maps at the back of my presentation that may help a little bit as well.

The Chair: And might I say that we think it's pretty terrific you were able to pull this together. I'm sure you and your staff have worked very hard. It's very helpful.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: I worked on this until midnight last night. If there are any wrong things, it's because I was working late and trying to get it together because I wanted the opportune time to present.

The Chair: Yes, we really appreciate you coming.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Do you wish me to start, Madam Chair?

The Chair: Yes, thank you.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Good afternoon.

I certainly am pleased to have the opportunity to present my objections regarding the proposed boundary changes to Lambton—Kent—Middlesex.

The Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act directs the commission to divide Ontario into 106 districts on the basis that the population of each electoral district in the province shall correspond as closely as possible to the electoral quota for the province.

As you know, the commission may depart from quota where necessary or desirable to respect:

(i) the community of interest or community of identity in or the historical pattern of an electoral district in the province,

and to maintain

(ii) a manageable geographic size for districts in sparsely populated, rural or northern regions of the province.

That being stated, I believe neither of the above options were taken into consideration with the proposed boundary changes for Lambton—Kent—Middlesex.

The proposed changes will increase the geographic size of my riding from 4,747 square kilometres to 6,038 square kilometres. This increase would make Middlesex—Kent—Lambton, as they wish to name it, larger than Prince Edward Island, which is serviced by four members of Parliament--and I do respect the Constitution.

One of the other considerations that must be taken into account is respect for communities of interest or community of identity in or the historical pattern of an electoral district in the province. Middlesex—Kent—Lambton, the new name for the proposed riding, would remain a rural riding with just a few large towns. The length of the proposed riding does not lend to the shared interest within the boundary. Communities of interest often run east-west, except when there's a major highway to connect towns.

The area of the riding that the commission is preparing to remove and relocate to the riding of Sarnia—Lambton is a rural area. The riding of Sarnia—Lambton represents, for the most part, an urban centre. I believe we need to ensure that communities with the same interests and concerns are kept in the same electoral district. Boundary changes should reflect interests that presently exist in adjacent ridings.

I find it hard to understand how the commission could find the community of interest between the municipality of Lucan Biddulph, which is the northern proposed portion, and southwest to Wallaceburg. These distances do not lend to this kind of environment. I know the distance is too far to share a local community interest.

Many of my constituents feel that the factors such as traditional voting patterns, communities, east-west lines of transportation, communications, shopping, schooling, and the general culture and social links and ties to municipalities and communities in areas within the existing riding should be more thoroughly considered when creating electoral boundaries.

Upon looking at the factors stated above, such as social links and ties to municipalities and communities in areas in the riding, I believe that my proposal shows a strong connecting link that deserves serious consideration. That link is Highway 40, from Wallaceburg to Sarnia. This provides a community of interest, work patterns, social interests, etc.

The issues dealt with in Sarnia—Lambton better suit the issues that are also facing Wallaceburg: for example, customs concerns, Great Lakes issues, and urban issues. Wallaceburg has a population of approximately 12,000. I would leave Petrolia—Enniskillen, Plympton—Wyoming as is because these communities represent the rural part of the riding and therefore have a community of interest with the rest of the current riding of Lambton—Kent—Middlesex.

Therefore I would suggest Wallaceburg, Dover Township, and Walpole Island, which is a native reserve, be part of Sarnia—Lambton, and Petrolia-Enniskillin, Plympton-Wyoming remain in the proposed riding of Middlesex—Kent—Lambton.

The results of this change would have the following benefits. It produces a new riding that is more compact and more manageable. It permits meaningful representation by the MP as travelling time is reduced. It allows for a more focused, meaningful community of interest because it is not so spread out. It creates easier access to constituency offices where the real business of representation is transacted.

Since the area sought to be added to Sarnia—Lambton is on the border and largely urban in nature, it allows the Sarnia—Lambton MP, familiar as he is with matters pertaining to transport and communication problems created by the existence of the border, to provide more immediate representation for the residents of the area who have border concerns. Because of its largely urban character, the residents have a close cultural and economic concern with a truly urban community, the city of Sarnia.

The residents of Walpole Island, who are largely first nations, have a corresponding common culture with the natives who live in Sarnia on Reserve 45.

» (1705)

Now, how do the numbers crunch out?

Our solution produces a new Middlesex—Kent—Lambton riding of approximately 103,766. This area is smaller and the population is only marginally less than the 105,179 the commission had proposed.

Our solution also produces an expanding riding of Sarnia—Lambton, with 105,211. The area is enlarged and the population is only slightly higher than the current population, with 104,556, as indicated by the commission. So the residents of Middlesex—Kent—Lambton and Sarnia—Lambton achieve the best of both worlds.

Lambton—Kent—Middlesex has always served a larger population and area than the surrounding ridings over the years. I believe it's time now to not only look at numbers, but also at the size of the riding, so a member can do a more efficient job of serving his or her constituents.

In the response to the commission's findings, I respectfully submit the following responses.

My first comments pertain to a proposed name change of the riding from Lambton—Kent—Middlesex to Middlesex—Kent—Lambton. This may seem a rather minor concern, but I feel that until the time comes for a change in member representation, the name of Lambton—Kent—Middlesex should remain the same. I'm looking at this solely as a cost-saving factor. A riding name change would mean a change in stationary, documents, business cards, etc. I feel we need to be more frugal in our expenditures, and as such, I request the name remain the same until there's a change in representation.

Further to the commission's findings at the boundary hearings in London, five presentations were given, with four of the briefs being basically the same. The County of Middlesex also presented, as well as the Lambton—Kent—Middlesex riding association, the provincial member of Parliament for Sarnia—Lambton, and the provincial member of Parliament for Lambton—Kent—Middlesex. One was Liberal and one was Conservative, if that means anything.

All four of these presentations generally agreed with the changes I am today sharing with you. The commission rejected the proposal of standing the boundaries for Sarnia—Lambton along the St. Clair River and shores of Lake St. Claire, stating there was no direct evidence that Walpole Island or the City of Chatham-Kent would support the same request. I find that hard to believe, especially when Highway 40 is a connecting link from Wallaceburg to Sarnia.

The commission also felt that while giving 28,703 of the population of the city of Chatham-Kent to Sarnia—Lambton met that riding's quota, it left our riding with too few people. My suggestion was that Wallaceburg, Walpole Island, and Dover Township be added to Sarnia—Lambton, resulting in a population of 16,880, not the 28,703 that the commission had indicated. Therefore, the final result would be both ridings meeting the criteria of the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act.

I thank you for your consideration, and I would be pleased to answer any questions put forth.

I do have maps. Just as a quick addendum here, in the commission's...it says consisting of parts of Lambton and Walpole Island and the city of Chatham-Kent, and it goes on to say the county of Middlesex, except the city of London and the township of Thames Centre. It also misses the three native reserves I have in Middlesex. They're not included in the commission's numbers.

Another statement made by the commission was that they couldn't make the changes I proposed because it would affect the riding of London—Fanshawe. Well, London—Fanshawe has nothing to do with what I'm proposing, because Thames Centre goes to Elgin, not to London—Fanshawe. I'm just a little unclear on that explanation.

On the last page, the breakdown of population for area ridings, I've always served, as I said, the larger territory. If you just look at your map, it speaks for itself. It just seems we're the iceberg in the middle and they chip off what they need; whatever's left, that's your riding.

Thank you.

» (1710)

The Chair: Thank you very much.

On the second map you've provided it shows an additional area to be added to Sarnia—Lambton. That's coming out of your riding.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: That's correct. That indication with the blue line is the Walpole-Wallaceburg-Dover Township section.

The Chair: But didn't you also want Enniskillen—Plympton?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: That's given back to the riding.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Godin.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: For example, if we were to look at the reserves which are not included for the purposes of our calculations, do you have any idea of how many people we're talking about here?

[English]

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: We tried to get those figures and the only figures we could get on reserves was for Walpole Island, which was about 1,500 people. We were never able to get the actual calculation for the three reserves in Middlesex. I don't think they'd be vast numbers, but they would probably...I shouldn't even say, because I'd only be guesstimating. I don't think you're looking at horrendous numbers--between 1,000 and 2,000, maybe.

Mr. André Cyr: For the Walpole Indian Reserve?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: I know it's a little over 1,800 people.

Mr. André Cyr: There are 1,800 people in that one.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Yes, we have that number, but we don't have Muncie-Delaware....

Mr. André Cyr: Okay, they were zero at the last census, because they didn't participate in the census.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: That's correct. But here again we have the Oneida Nation, which is in Southwold, which Elections Canada or the commission always puts in my riding. Southwold is in Elgin. I can't make people understand that Southwold is not in my riding, but we have the reserve. I guess the natives want to be in my riding. I don't know.

[Translation]

The Chair: Do you have any additional questions, Mr. Godin?

Mr. Yvon Godin: No.

[English]

The Chair: I have a question. On the map you proposed, with the hashing to show the changed riding of Sarnia—Lambton, is the line that runs between the “a” and the “m” in Lambton, and through the “K” in Kent, and down to the top of Chatham—Kent Essex, right to the Thames River, some kind of a natural line?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: No, I just made a quick line. The line I would make would be the Dover Township portion of that, because you can see Chatham there, right by Highway 40, and next to it is Camden, and the next is Zone. Those are all townships.

There are four townships: Dover, Chatham, Camden, and Zone. What I propose would be Dover, Wallaceburg, and Walpole Island being connected to Sarnia—Lambton. As you can see, Highway 40 is a really good link from Wallaceburg right up to Sarnia, along the waterway there.

» (1715)

The Chair: So really the hashing should exclude the piece of Kent Township--

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: The Chatham Township.

The Chair: Oh, it's called Chatham Township. What does Kent--

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Kent is the county.

I represent three counties.

The Chair: So you'd take Kent County out of that picture.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: No, Dover Township, in Kent County.

The Chair: Sorry. You'd put Dover, Walpole Island, and the town of Wallaceburg into--

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Sarnia--Lambton....

The Chair: And you'd remove the hashing from the piece that says “Kent”.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: That's correct.

The Chair: Okay.

Yes?

Mr. Scott Reid: Following up on that, when I look at your map and then I look at the one that Elections Canada provides, they don't show these municipal boundaries. Have these municipalities all been amalgamated?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: The four counties, as I've indicated--the townships of Dover, Chatham, Camden, and Zone--are all in the municipality of Chatham-Kent, in the city of Chatham and the county of Kent.

Mr. Scott Reid: Oh, so this is all one--

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: The Thames River separates Kent County in half. Mr. Pickard has Chatham-Kent Essex.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay. Perhaps you don't mind my asking then. What's happened is there's a single-tier municipality there now? Is that right?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: That's correct.

Mr. Scott Reid: And that goes on both sides of the Thames River, including Chatham-Kent Essex, all the areas that Dover.... Okay, I get it. What I'm getting at is, it's a single-tier municipality, but it's already split between two constituencies under the proposal of the boundaries commission.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: That's correct.

Mr. Scott Reid: I think that's significant, because there's a reluctance on the part of the boundaries commission to split first-term municipalities that are not already split. That's my sense of it.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Yes, and you're absolutely right. I have heard that as well, but we also have to reflect that, this being said--

The Chair: They took Leamington.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Leamington is Mr. Pickard's, but this being said, what I'm left with...and Lambton only leaves me, I think, with three or four areas, so it cuts down.... Mind you, there are just two members representing there as well.

I think the factor we have to look at here is, there's no community of interest. As you can see, at the top of the map from Lucan Biddulph down to Walpole Island, at least if you use the link of Highway 40, there's a continuum of community of interest with shopping, schools, etc.

Mr. Scott Reid: Right.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: With no disrespect to my colleague, Roger Gallaway, he's more than capable, I'm sure, because like Sombra and Moore, they are rural sectors within his riding, and he certainly is versed on urban aspects, representing the city of Sarnia.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay, thank you.

The Chair: May I clarify this?

Mr. Cyr, can you confirm that their proposals have a rural riding of what they're calling Middlesex—Lambton, being bigger than what is largely an urban riding of Sarnia—Lambton, population-wise?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: It always has been. Geographics is not a consideration.

The Chair: It is to most of us around this table.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: No, but I'm just saying I think--

The Chair: Generally, we felt that if you're in an urban place, it's easier to service the larger number than if you're in a rural place.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Exactly.

The Chair: That has been our impression on this committee.

Mr. Cyr, are these numbers pretty good?

Mr. André Cyr: The more urban riding of Sarnia—Lambton would be at roughly minus 3%.

The Chair: The rural riding of what is currently Middlesex—Kent—Lambton would be 105. Is that what they're proposing?

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

The Chair: Without the inclusion of the three reserves that they forgot to include.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: That's right.

The Chair: Are they already over?

Mr. André Cyr: No. They're at minus 2%.

The Chair: Okay. They're still under.

Mr. Scott Reid: Is that right now or the report?

The Chair: What they reported.

Mr. Scott Reid: What happens when you make the changes as recommended following the old township lines? If you do that, what do you get as a result for the two ridings?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: I think I have those figures on one of my sheets.

The Chair: Mr. Cyr has it.

Mr. André Cyr: The area roughly includes Wallaceburg, Walpole Island, and Dover Township. And the northern part of the former township of Chatham is 18,500. I'll move those to Sarnia.

» (1720)

The Chair: It's a two-stage process, because then he has to pick up those other counties of Plympton and Enniskillin.

Mr. André Cyr: Sarnia is at 123,000, plus 14%. Now we remove the other areas.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Sarnia is at 123,000?

The Chair: He hasn't removed yet.

Mr. Scott Reid: Does that correspond to the boundaries? It looks like it has some little jogs in it that are not....

Mr. André Cyr: I took a bit more of the area, but they'll all fall in the new riding. The numbers for Sarnia—Lambton are minus 1%, 107,000, and Middlesex—Kent—Lambton is minus 4%.

The Chair: Do we have Mr. Gallaway appearing?

The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Thomas Hall): No, I don't believe he is.

The Chair: Would the riding still be called Sarnia—Lambton?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: No. Then you would have to have Sarnia—Kent—Lambton.

The Chair: Is there any reason why they went from Lambton—Kent—Middlesex to Middlesex—Kent—Lambton?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: The commission tries to rename a riding if you have a larger portion of the riding. Since we have three counties there, they would take the larger population base and would put that county first. It's just the same names, but moved around because of the size of the county.

The Chair: With the change, does it become more Lambton than Middlesex?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: No. It becomes more Middlesex than Lambton.

The Chair: All right.

Are there any other questions? Mr. Reid looks like he's thinking of one...hard. I can see the smoke.

Mr. Scott Reid: No, actually I--

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: As you can see, I need a helicopter. This is a big riding--a big riding for southwestern Ontario. But compared to our northern friends, it certainly isn't. However, water and trees don't vote, people do, and I have people throughout this riding.

The Chair: If you were in Nova Scotia they might.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: I'm not going there.

The Chair: I'm teasing. It's a pleasantry.

Where do you live?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: I live in Strathroy, which is probably where the “m” is in Lambton. I have three offices currently. One is in Wallaceburg, one in Strathroy, and one in Petrolia in Lambton.

The Chair: Petrolia is in the Sarnia-Lambton area.

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: Yes, it is in the Enniskillen area.

The Chair: With the proposal you suggest, would that mean you could just be down to two offices, or would you shift one office?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: I would probably have to readjust offices at this time. My colleague, Paul Steckle, has a riding almost the same length as this and he only has one office. I guess we've spoiled the people in Lambton—Kent—Middlesex all along. At one point, my predecessor had four offices. When we switched to including the county of Kent, I thought that was an opportune time to have one office only in each county and a toll free number. You can't be at everyone's doorstep.

The Chair: Mr. Reid. You see I knew I'd help you get a question.

» (1725)

Mr. Scott Reid: Thanks.

Under the current, unamended proposal, how long would it take to drive from one corner of the riding to the other?

Mrs. Rose-Marie Ur: It would take nearly three hours. That does not seem long, as I said, compared to northern areas, but you are going through towns and villages. The two largest urban areas in my area, Strathroy and Wallaceburg, each have approximately 12,000 population, but there are all the other little towns and villages along the way.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mrs. Ur. Congratulations on having very clear maps, at midnight, and have a good weekend.

Mr. Keyes is next. He will be brief, I'm sure. Mr. Keyes' maps are on page--

Mr. Stan Keyes (Hamilton West, Lib.): It takes three hours for Rose-Marie to drive from one end of her riding to the other. It takes me about eight minutes. I'll try to be accordingly short.

The Chair: We're on page 112 in this book and page 15 in the paper copy--

Mr. Stan Keyes: I'm hoping there's some truth, Madam Chair, in the saying that the best is saved for last.

The chair is probably very familiar with the argument I will be proposing.

The Chair: Some of them.

An hon. member: Have you been doing some lobbying?

Mr. Stan Keyes: No, it's just a case of--

» (1730)

The Chair: We appeared at the same commission.

Mr. Stan Keyes: And now I'm faced with an argument that the chair was faced with last time, the last go-round.

Anyway, I requested to appear before you, members of this committee, to express my profound disappointment, once again, with the decision made by the Electoral Boundaries Commission in the case of Hamilton West, and the splicing off of a community we call Westdale, which is an integral part of our community.

As I indicated in my written submissions to the commission, as well as in my presentation before the commission when it came to Hamilton, Westdale is an essential part of the Hamilton West community. Indeed, historically, socially, and economically, Westdale residents integrate towards Hamilton city centre eastward and not to the west, as referred to by the inclusion of Westdale in the Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot riding, as it is presently called, and would become Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Westdale.

As you can see by the map, we're at the very apex of the golden horseshoe, as it were, at the foot of Lake Ontario. As the map explodes, you see the new riding of Hamilton Centre, which now requires also a name change from the decades-old riding of Hamilton West.

Riding boundaries, as you have probably heard ad nauseam, must reflect the community of interest. Well, I was born and raised in Hamilton West, specifically in the Westdale area, so I can confidently comment on Westdale's place in a community of interest in Hamilton West. The Hamilton city centre and Westdale residents form a community of interest. That can't be said of the relationship of Westdale to Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough. These areas, by their geographical and economic situation, fall outside the immediate city centre. The common interest of Westdale residents have more in common with the city proper, not with the more recent developments that have been going on in the traditional core area of Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough, especially Flamborough.

It's unfortunate we don't have any kind of a 3-D effect on the map. As the chair will tell you from her experience living in the area, the line of the traditional riding, which included Westdale, encompasses a geographical line that follows a waterway in Cootes Paradise and then the base of an escarpment that runs completely along that line to where you see the number 403. I have below the mountain in the city and above the mountain, but it's part of a community called Hamilton and Hamilton West.

Of particular concern to me and the residents of Westdale is the impact these changes will have on McMaster University and its place in the Hamilton community. McMaster is found in that Westdale area where that orange.... I guess I can use this thing.

The Chair: Yes, but don't blind us or yourself.

Mr. Stan Keyes: There is that natural border I was telling you about, and McMaster University is positioned about where the arrow is.

As I articulated in the November submission, McMaster has opened a brand-new centre in downtown Hamilton. So if we're talking of Westdale, the Westdale area, McMaster is there, and right in the core, about a seven-minute drive from McMaster, is the new McMaster Centre. This is a short drive from the main campus. The centre came to fruition through a close collaboration between the university and the City of Hamilton. The commission's proposed changes negate the importance of this institution as a place in Westdale, as well as McMaster's intention to create greater linkages in operational integration with the city centre. By breaking this community into two spheres, the commission may have broken a long-standing contract between McMaster, Westdale residents, and the core of the city of Hamilton.

On the surface, the goal to spread the population of the ridings evenly seems pretty straightforward, but on further examination it's clear that the extraction, the literal hiving off of Westdale from the riding of Hamilton West, is the optimal route in achieving that goal.

It was argued prior to the riding boundary adjustments in 1997 that the community of Aldershot was part of the community of interest of Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough. Today it's deemed that Aldershot truly is part of the Burlington community, not the Flamborough—Dundas—Aldershot community, and I would suggest to you, members of the committee, that should Westdale be separated from Hamilton, in just a few years we'll be pursuing the same discussion to reverse today's proposed change. I'm here to say, with regard to Westdale, as in the past, that the argument will be proven wrong.

I'm not certain if the member for Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot will be appearing--probably not, because he's again very happy with the situation that the Electoral Boundaries Commission has provided for him in hiving off someone else's riding and putting it into his own, as happened the last time around, and then that was adjusted, as I say, with the case of Aldershot this time around.

Yes, and he's a fellow Liberal.

So I can confidently argue that Westdale does not in any way have a community of interest with Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough that would prompt the proposed changes.

Mohawk College and McMaster University, two celebrated institutions, make their homes in Hamilton West. The students are there; they live close by their institutions; they study at them. It's also in Westdale that they do their shopping, banking, and relaxation.

When residents of Westdale want to attend the Bulldogs game or go to the theatre or the art gallery, they all head downtown, which is just a short bus ride away, whether it's at Hamilton Place or the du Maurier Theatre in Hamilton. Westdale residents head to Hamilton for business and for recreation, not out to Ancaster, Dundas, or Flamborough--especially Flamborough.

A look at the numbers demonstrates that the removal of Westdale from Hamilton West is not the ideal solution in balancing the electorate. The golden horseshoe of Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough and, to the east, Grimsby and Binbrook, is where population growth is taking place.

I understand the rules, so I'll put my argument in this fashion. As an urban centre, Hamilton West--you can see the size of it, and as I mentioned, compared to Rose-Marie's three-hour drive, it takes me about eight minutes to go from one end of my riding to the other--has an area of only 35 square kilometres. Its limit for growth is exhausted, giving rise to rapid development in the bedroom communities of Ancaster and Flamborough.

As I say, I understand the rules, and we're not to present projected growth figures as an argument, but I'll turn your attention to Ancaster—Dundas--Flamborough—Aldershot, and now we'll exclude Aldershot: 764 square kilometres versus Hamilton West's 35 square kilometres.

In the last election, the number of registered voters in Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot grew by over 6,000 votes, compared to an average of just over 3,000 in the neighbouring Hamilton ridings. Given the sheer size of Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough, and I dare say, predicted continued strong growth in the area, it's clear that the separation of a community that is an integral part of Hamilton West from its community of interest isn't the ideal solution in accomplishing what is the inevitable growth of its adjacent riding to the west.

» (1735)

A quick look at the riding map and past election results for the riding core of Hamilton ridings will give you a sense of the reality, as well as the valued place, of Westdale in Hamilton West and the Hamilton community.

My constituents have made it very clear to me that they are, and wish to be counted as, Hamiltonians. I implore you not to undertake this change. The electoral commission is doing nothing more than number crunching. To ignore the population growth taking place outside the zoning of the core of the city of Hamilton is to discount the very obvious at the expense of Westdale and the residents of Hamilton West.

It's a given that we have to do our best to ensure that, of course, each vote a Canadian casts is given the same weight as fellow citizens in any other riding. At the same time, ridings are drawn along historical lines. It's true that as many regions have become urbanized, some of the lines have blurred and the old distinctions are blurred somewhat.

That being said, those communities of interest tend to be highlighted at the confluence of the urban and semi-rural areas, as in Westdale in the riding of Hamilton West. In moving the boundaries to the west rather than to the east, the goal of weighing votes equally can be achieved without creating the unnatural divisions within the existing ridings.

That concludes my oral presentation to this committee, Madam Chair, other than to say that there have been suggestions in the past made by my colleagues in the Niagara area.

Do we have the larger map for the golden horseshoe area, the tip of Lake Ontario that includes Niagara?

Hamilton West is one of the tiny dots. The little brown dot is my riding, which turned green.

The Chair: My God, we went to Mars.

Mr. Stan Keyes: It's a very environmentally friendly riding.

Is number 20 Hamilton West? Is this the new or the old boundary?

Mr. André Cyr: The old ones are the brown lines. I'll remove them.

Mr. Stan Keyes: No, don't touch it again.

The Chair: Leave André alone.

Mr. Stan Keyes: We have the old boundary. You can see the natural progression eastward of the ridings and how they were formulated. Under the new boundaries they've crunched everything east at the bottom of Lake Ontario. Everything east is crunched to accommodate Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, if you can imagine that.

All the population, that one chunk of community, is it worth about 8,000? I can't remember how many potential residents there are.

Mr. André Cyr: What town?

Mr. Stan Keyes: Westdale, the Westdale area. It slips my mind.

» (1740)

Mr. André Cyr: It's 16,000.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Okay, it is 16,000. Everything was shifted to accommodate that one little chunk in that one little dot, number 20 on your map. If you can believe it, that is Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough.

Aldershot was hived off and is naturally a part of Burlington. No one is questioning the fact that Aldershot should be a part of Burlington. Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Puslinch would make a far better solution than Westdale.

Mr. Scott Reid: Where is Puslinch? Could you point at it?

Mr. Stan Keyes: Flamborough is up in this area.

Mr. Scott Reid: Am I looking at the little red dot or the little grey dot?

Mr. Stan Keyes: It is number 21, I guess. I don't have my chart. Is that Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough?

The Chair: Puslinch would be by number 28.

Mr. Stan Keyes: It's a little piece. If they added that piece, the community of interest is Hamilton and Westdale.

Mr. Scott Reid: So it's currently in Kitchener—Conestoga? Is that right?

Mr. Stan Keyes: That's right.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Can you go back, André, to that yellow piece you just took out--Westdale? It goes back about four screens.

Mr. Keyes, that's the area that's hived out and now going to Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough.

The reason I wanted that one is you had indicated there was a natural boundary--the water is, obviously. I can see the water there.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Cootes Paradise. And then you climb the escarpment, as I do here.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Do you climb, or is that the base of the escarpment?

Mr. Stan Keyes: This is the waterway. This is the base of the escarpment.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's what I'm saying. So where you have the red dot now is the base of the escarpment. The escarpment goes up from there.

Mr. Stan Keyes: That's right.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So in order for these people in Westdale to have any association across the mountain, so to speak--

Mr. Stan Keyes: They have to drive the 403 highway up into Ancaster, or they have to drive out of Westdale down through a big valley to get into Dundas, or, if you can believe this, the area of Flamborough is this area up in here, so you'd have to go all the way around the lake to get to Flamborough.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So that is, in your opinion, a natural boundary, meaning the community of interest should then go back into Hamilton-West.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Rick, it's a natural boundary of about 100 years.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I know the escarpment, and I know you can't develop on it either.

Where do you live, Mr. Keyes?

Mr. Stan Keyes: I live in Flamborough, right up in here. That's where my wife and I bought a house 23 years ago.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So you're not even in the riding?

Mr. Stan Keyes: No, I couldn't afford to buy one in the riding back when I was first married.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So you're in the Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough riding.

Mr. Stan Keyes: That's right. I'm in Flamborough.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I know Flamborough well. It's expensive too.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Oh, yes. It's growing too, and it continues to grow. All of this area is expanding. If you went up there and saw the housing construction going on there, it's--

The Chair: I know.

Mr. Stan Keyes: It's incredible, the housing construction. I have no growth area--no growth room for 35 kilometres.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: There's also a racetrack in Flamborough. I just thought you should know.

Mr. Stan Keyes: And a casino.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I didn't know that.

The Chair: Racetracks don't vote, and we have a lot of work to do in the next 15 minutes.

Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Very briefly, Stan, you're at 118,000 and that's 9.8% over. If we add the 16,000 from Westdale, you're at 134,000, which is plus 25%.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes, but as I've mentioned--

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What do we remove?

Mr. Stan Keyes: I'm sorry. As I mentioned, when I was doing the easterly trek, all these ridings have been crunched to the effect that one riding has fallen off the map.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: What have they added to your riding? Have they added anything?

Mr. Stan Keyes: Have they added? Oh, yes, considerably. Where I used to have my Hamilton West boundary here, I believe it now stretches all the way over to here. They've added all this area--housing. Sheila Copps is beside me. She used to start here and go to about there; she now starts there and goes all the way through to Stoney Creek downtown. Now you have what was traditionally Hamilton East going into Stoney Creek.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Stan, Hamilton Mountain, which is south of your riding--

» (1745)

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes, sir, that area right here.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It's minus in the calculation. In other words, it's below the average.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is there anything you could sacrifice from your riding?

Mr. André Cyr: Sorry, I gave Mr. Proulx the wrong information.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It's Huron--Bruce that's minus three. What section could we remove from you?

The Chair: Can I just help Mr. Proulx out there?

The section, André, that's between the escarpment and the link and West 5th--

Mr. Stan Keyes: That's this area here.

The Chair: Can you tell us how many people live in that area? Certainly they could be linked to Ancaster, because that is Ancaster—Hamilton Mountain.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes, but the problem is they're already at minus one. We're removing 16,000, so we have to add at least 16,000.

The Chair: Right, if you're going to exchange people. So you just have to find out how many live there. It's pretty dense.

I'm just trying to figure out if they make up the difference of Westdale.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Of Westdale in Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough.

The Chair: Do you guys want to know where I grew up?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Where did you grow up?

The Chair: In Aldershot.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Which used to be in Burlington, but then--

The Chair: Then it got taken out.

Mr. Cyr.

Mr. André Cyr: It's 23,000.

The Chair: It's 23,000. So if you were to take Westdale and put it in Hamilton Centre and take that piece of the mountain and put it in Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough, what would be the riding size of Hamilton Centre and what would be the riding size of the Ancaster one? You'd just take that piece of the mountain and add it to Ancaster.

Mr. Scott Reid: It's not in his riding.

The Chair: No, it's in his riding.

Mr. Scott Reid: Oh, I'm sorry, we're only talking about two ridings.

The Chair: It's in Hamilton Centre.

Mr. Stan Keyes: It's not Hamilton Mountain.

The Chair: It's on the mountain, but it's in his riding.

Mr. Stan Keyes: What is Hamilton East?

The Chair: We're getting these numbers.

If I'm not mistaken, a 5,000 difference would bring Hamilton Centre closer to the quotient and would bring Ancaster up closer to the quotient.

Mr. Stan Keyes: But I'll be honest with you, Madam Chair. The problem we have there is that section of the mountain also considers it to be Hamilton, not Ancaster, because it's north of the link.

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Stan Keyes: All of that community, that's where Mohawk College and all that area is, so they consider themselves more Hamilton. If they started calling themselves part of Ancaster, I'd have the same problem with them as I'm having with Westdale.

The Chair: However, they are linked on the same piece of highway and there is the geographic boundary of the mountain.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes. There was a time when I never had any mountain. I was all lower city. It went to Sherman Avenue, which is about there, instead of over to Ottawa Street. So my riding went from here to about there, because that's where Sherman Avenue would be--this is Ottawa Street--and then I didn't have any of this. So it went from Westdale to Sherman Avenue, and that was all in the lower part of the mountain. Then on the last go-round, when they switched everything, they inverted the horizontal and flipped it and flipped all of them vertically, which caused me to have a chunk of the mountain up here.

Now they've cut back that chunk of the mountain to be included in Hamilton West, but they stretched this border all the way over to Ottawa Street.

The Chair: As I recall from the hearings, they started at the boundary of Canada-U.S. down by Niagara and started coming toward us, in terms of making the ridings by population.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes.

The Chair: So that's where they included those.

Mr. Stan Keyes: You see, my way of thinking was--

The Chair: Wait, can we get the quotient numbers or the numbers on how far variant they are?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Madam Chairman, are you saying they're supposed to be done on population and no community of interest at all? There were no natural boundaries. It was just that these are the numbers and they just moved from--

The Chair: As I recall, they looked at numbers and then they also looked at community of interest. The region of--

Mr. Stan Keyes: Numbers took priority.

The Chair: But unless there's going to be another seat in the province of Ontario or the numbers are going to get bigger in the Mississauga zone, we have an issue here.

» (1750)

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes.

The Chair: Wait.

André, what were the numbers?

Mr. André Cyr: Okay. The riding of Hamilton Centre comes out to 110,000, plus 3%; Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, plus 5%, at 113,000.

The Chair: Okay. There could be some other piece of that. That might be a little more logical, and maybe Mr. Keyes could think about that a little bit. If there's some other piece, in terms of that transportation link that definitely links those people to Ancaster now.... They've changed the road names and everything.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes. I'll be totally blunt with you. You said my current riding was sitting at what?

The Chair: At 9.8% over.

Mr. Stan Keyes: In its current configuration?

The Chair: As what they had proposed.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes. And what is it for Hamilton East?

The Chair: Hamilton East is 7.49% over.

Mr. Stan Keyes: To split the difference on that eastern border to, say, take me to Sherman instead of Ottawa Street would balance out the 9% and the 7%, wouldn't it?

The Chair: But the problem is, Mr. Keyes, if we took Westdale out of your riding, we've left Ancaster—Dundas way low.

We have to find the population to make up Ancaster, so you have to find us.... They're already under by 1.3%. We take out 16,000 and they drop quite significantly, way out of whack, so we have to find some piece for them.

Mr. Stan Keyes: This is where we had the discussion about Puslinch going into Flamborough—Ancaster—Dundas.

The Chair: But Puslinch isn't in the city of Hamilton.

Mr. Stan Keyes: No.

The Chair: Ancaster, Flamborough, and Dundas are in the city of Hamilton. It's going to have to be something closer to the city of Hamilton than another regional municipality, if you're talking about communities of interest, which is why I was looking at the mountain piece, if there's some other bit of the mountain that you can come up with that makes a little more sense and keeps the numbers roughly similar.

We could also look at that Hamilton, Ottawa Street--what's the boundary again--if there was something that jogged them slightly better down there.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Yes. All right. Thank you very much for your time. It's back to the drawing board then.

The Chair: Do you want to come back to us on that front? We asked in B.C. for someone to come back to us with some other possibilities.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Oh, is that right? Okay, I will. Thank you very much.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Borotsik will give you a hard time when you come back.

Mr. Stan Keyes: What's the date again for that one?

The Chair: Monday the 26th or Tuesday the 27th.

Mr. Stan Keyes: So I'll be notified?

The Chair: You could always send a written response, if you would like.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Oh, that would be fine. Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. Then Mr. Borotsik can abuse you.

Mr. Stan Keyes: I don't mind.

The Chair: Ask Mr. Cummins what it's like to come back.

Mr. Stan Keyes: Thank you very much. Have a good week off.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Keyes.

We have a little more work to do before we can leave. Can we have five minutes? We're scheduled until 6 o'clock. I tried to hurry.

A couple of questions. We're going in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]