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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, June 5, 2003

0940

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Hon. John Manley (Ottawa South, Lib.)

0945

The Chair

Mr. John Manley

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Rick Borotsik

0950

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. John Manley

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. John Manley

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Manley

0955

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Manley

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. John Manley

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

1000

1005

1010

The Clerk of the Committee

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

1015

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

1020

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

1025

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, Ind.)

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ)

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

1030

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

1035

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Michel Guimond

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Ghislain Lebel

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 016

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, June 5, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0940)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I will call this meeting to order. We are the Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, and we're very pleased to have with us this morning John Manley.

Colleagues, in this book, the map is on page 118 and 119, and in the consultation document it is map 12, on page 19. That's a little easier to see.

Minister.

Hon. John Manley (Ottawa South, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Let me first thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my concerns over some of the proposed changes. What we're dealing with here are boundaries that have been in place through a couple of previous changes going right back prior to the 1988 election, so in talking about some of these polls that are affected by this change, we're talking about polls I've represented since the 1988 election.

I've filed my objection with you in both languages.

[Translation]

I presented them to the committee in both official languages, and both versions are available for your consideration.

[English]

Let me just very quickly explain what's happening here, because if you look at the map, it looks like a really big piece of geography. These are the existing boundaries--the red line--and I'm number 68. We're talking about this yellow territory here that is the south end of Ottawa South. It looks like a lot of space, but most of it is the Ottawa International Airport. The last time I checked, although there is one farm right down at the very bottom corner--which gives me a foothold in the agricultural territory of eastern Ontario, Rick--the majority of the people I'm concerned about live in a couple of neighbourhoods up here at the north end.

Previously, to a great extent, it was housing that belonged to the Department of National Defence when Uplands was a functioning military base, but there are still--I guess we know, André--about 3,000-odd people who live there, and of course a smaller number of those are electors. But the population of that area is about 3,500. I think it's four polls.

As a matter of interest, I'd have to say they're not necessarily my strongest polls from a political point of view, but their sphere of interest of activity is entirely northbound. In other words, the way the city works is that a lot of the recreational activities are in the Hunt Club area, which is to the north there. So all of the shopping, the schools, the recreation are north, whereas you have this big barrier here to the south, which is the airport. So the entire community of interest is north.

Down here you have people living along the river in a lot of different communities. This also parallels the former boundary between the city of Ottawa and the city of Gloucester. Now, with municipal reorganization, it's all one large city, but again the orientation here has historically been to the more rural areas.

If you go down the river where that red line goes, you come to the village of Manotick, which is the orientation of a lot of the people living along the river. But the folks living in Elizabeth Park and Windsor Park Village, who I'm talking about, are all to the north.

When you start to look at the numbers, we actually are certainly well within the 25% of variance, but when you add these numbers, you'd take us to just about 10% over the provincial norm. I know we're right at the cusp of where you've generally felt comfortable. That would bring the Nepean--Carleton constituency down a little bit, but they would be at plus 2% of the provincial norm. It's not a huge adjustment. And if you take those neighbourhoods and put them back into my constituency, the natural boundary of the Rideau River still applies to the western side.

What I'm suggesting here is nobody lives along any of those boundaries, the roads that surround the airport, except for that one guy down in this very bottom corner. It's really not affected at all by the linkages that would normally be there.

¿ (0945)

Whether you are talking about community news services, commercial services, recreational facilities, transportation facilities--these people all use the OC Transpo bus services going north--all of that community of interest is to the north.

That, in as brief a fashion as I can, Madam Chair, is the expression of my concern. For the number of people involved, the communications issues around trying to explain to these people that after all these years they're now in a constituency that lies mainly to the south of the airport does not make a lot of sense to me, and that's why I propose you revisit the issue.

The Chair: Thank you.

Did you appear at the meetings the commission had?

Mr. John Manley: No, I did not. I did write in a submission to them, but the timing of their sessions, despite a lot of effort, never coincided with my availability.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik and then Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): That was one of my questions. The original proposal from the commission also included that portion you're talking about out of the riding. They transposed that onto the final suggestion, which, by the way, is unusual, because normally what they did in the original suggestions was totally changed in the final solution, but at least they gave you a heads-up.

You mentioned Manotick. Is Manotick still outside of that area?

Mr. John Manley: Yes, it's farther south.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: From what I understand, that's an area of growth. There are substantial numbers of people heading into the Manotick area of south Ottawa. Is that correct?

Mr. John Manley: Yes, there is a lot of growth to the south of my constituency. If you go to Manotick, you're going farther down the river. On the map you can see where it comes in.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Another reason for my comment there, Mr. Manley, is that you're now saying that there's an adjustment. You're taking a population base out of Nepean--Carleton, but it's my opinion, and I'd like you to confirm or not confirm, that Nepean--Carleton, over the next five years, will probably have more growth than what you can anticipate, obviously, in that area.

¿ (0950)

Mr. John Manley: Yes, within the boundaries of my constituency we have had some fairly considerable growth, but it's increased density, whereas what you have to the south, which is where I would be taking people from, is you have a lot of room for expansion. In the city of Ottawa a lot of the growth is now proceeding south. If you look at the map of Ottawa, historically it has grown along the Queensway. You have a huge expansion to the west and to the east, and that has been very slow to the south. What's been developing most recently is expansion to the south, so I expect that those ridings that are going to be south of what I'm talking about are where the growth will be.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes, you're taking 3,500 people out. I'm just giving you an argument that those 3,500 people--

Mr. John Manley: I am adopting your argument.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: --will be replaced quite quickly in that area.

Mr. John Manley: They will be replaced probably by next June.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's what I thought. Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): John, is there anything west of Limebank Road between Limebank and the Rideau River?

Mr. John Manley: It's funny you should mention that. If you go over the Heron Road bridge going eastbound and you look to your right, you'll see maybe seven or eight houses that are literally on the side of a cliff. Look to the south.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Do you mean the Hunt Club bridge?

Mr. John Manley: Sorry. Yes, it's the Hunt Club bridge. If you go over that bridge and look down here, you'll see a little cluster of houses literally on the cliff side, and they are in my constituency. How they live under the runway, I don't know, but they do.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: They're not in the constituency now?

Mr. John Manley: No. There is one cluster here. Most of the housing, the bigger subdivisions start here. This is Black Rapids. On this side of the river you get some of the subdivisions on that side, but we just have a little cluster.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Are you taking the squares up?

Mr. John Manley: If you take that square you'll find there are 26 people.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Why wouldn't we square it off, John, at Mitch Owens Road? I don't know if it's called Mitch Owens Road right to the river. That's what I mean.

The Chair: No, it's not Mitch Owens.

Mr. John Manley: I think you'll find there are a lot more people.

The Chair: It's Leitrim. In the map, Mr. Proulx, it's actually Leitrim; it's not all the way down to Mitch--

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): No, this is Leitrim here.

The Chair: Where is Mitch Owens?

Mr. André Cyr: The south area of the current riding is Leitrim Road. It's Leitrim on the west side of Limebank Road as well.

Mr. John Manley: But if you go to the river, you'll find there are more people. There's hardly anyone, probably, in there.

The Chair: So what if you go off down to the river? André.

Mr. André Cyr: Pardon me?

The Chair: I see he's having trouble because Leitrim doesn't go all the way to the river.

Mr. André Cyr: Exactly, and the census block that follows the river is six kilometres long. I have 450 people in there. But we create split census blocks in Statistics Canada to give us the proper population counts.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Would it make sense, John, to give you that corner there, what we're talking about east of the river, that area? Would that make sense to connect that with your riding?

Mr. John Manley: To the river or...?

¿ (0955)

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Right to the river.

Mr. John Manley: Right to the river, you'd have to exactly figure out where the neighbourhood breaks are. The difference there, Marcel, is I have not historically represented those people, so they would wake up one morning and wonder how come their MP is in a different area. That's been part of what used to be Carleton--Gloucester. It was outside the city of Ottawa, so it was always linked to the Gloucester part of this.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Could they have used that argument to connect your small group around the airport and switch it downwards?

Mr. John Manley: For 26 people, they could easily--

Mr. Marcel Proulx: No, the Ottawa International Airport area, which they've assigned to Nepean--Carleton from your riding.

Mr. John Manley: But those are totally disconnected from this. These people use their cars because the bus service is so uncertain out there. They have historically gone to different schools. Their orientation is southbound. For these people up at the top part of the airport, there just is not the community of interest.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I'm trying to understand why the heck they would change that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, but that's what they're trying to do. They're trying to fix it, but somehow they didn't understand the connection between the south and the north not being there.

Mr. John Manley: This has happened in previous redistributions where I've had to come back in and say there's an issue here. Previously they've tried to cut off along Hunt Club Road, and it actually goes in the middle of some condominium developments, for example, so where the city boundary was--

Mr. Marcel Proulx: It would be much more logical to leave that area of yours in your riding.

Mr. John Manley: That's my submission.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chair: Thank you.

I think they did it because they wanted to even out the numbers, because Nepean--Carleton as they propose is 4.77, and Ottawa South is 7.14, so maybe they just thought ten and two wasn't.... Because there's no other commentary in the book, for some reason.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: And the area is bound to grow like crazy.

The Chair: And it's also a larger geographic area.

[Translation]

Are there any other questions? No?

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

[English]

Mr. John Manley: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): I was going to suggest, actually, if you can get the multicoloured map of the ridings that you've been using just with Mr. Manley's presentation, I think that would be the most effective.

Colleagues, my presentation today is in regard to objections to the boundaries of the two proposed new electoral districts of Carleton--Lanark and Lanark--Frontenac--Lennox and Addington. Carleton--Lanark is the grey one here. Lanark--Frontenac is something that is indicated as number 48 here. That's the light-purple colour.

These ridings replace the constituency of Lanark--Carleton, which I currently represent. In the package I've distributed to you you'll find a map at tab A that shows the changes I am proposing to make, and which, as you can see, would result in the shifting of three chunks of territory: the former township of Rideau, now part of the city of Ottawa from Nepean--Carleton to Carleton--Lanark; the town of Mississippi Mills from Carleton--Lanark to Lanark--Frontenac--Lennox and Addington; and the township of South Frontenac from Lanark--Frontenac--Lennox and Addington to Leeds--Grenville. Those three areas are highlighted in yellow.

I'd like to provide you with the reasons, based upon community of interest, for each of the three shifts that I am proposing. Let me start in the east and work my way around the map in a clockwise direction, explaining each of the three in turn. That puts us at Rideau to start with.

Rideau Township I recommend moving from Nepean--Carleton to Carleton--Lanark, and two maps of this area can be found at tab B in your handout. In recommending the re-establishment of a link between the former Rideau Township and the former Goulbourn Township--both of which are now wards of the city of Ottawa--I'm supporting a proposal that was made by David Pratt, who is the MP for Nepean--Carleton, at the boundary commission hearings last November.

He proposed that both the former township of Goulbourn and all parts of the former township of Rideau, other than the village of Manotick, be moved into Carleton--Lanark, or what was the predecessor riding to Carleton--Lanark. Unfortunately, this proposal was only half followed by the commission, thereby splitting a community of interest. Because nobody from the community had anticipated that Goulbourn and Rideau would be placed in different ridings in the second round of hearings, no witnesses had the opportunity to make presentations at hearings of the boundary commission regarding the community of interest that unites these two former townships.

To correct this, I propose that the area that is highlighted in yellow on the map that's at the top of the page at tab B be moved. The map at the bottom of the page, the second map on that page, shows the location of Goulbourn and Rideau Townships and of the town of Manotick. Manotick is indicated with a green dot.

Let me draw your attention to some of the evidence of community of interest between these townships that was never presented to the boundaries commission. Number one, the logical divide between communities of interest, as Mr. Manley observed in his presentation a moment ago, is the Rideau River, which is at the eastern edge of the former Rideau Township.

The river is crossed by only two bridges in this area. One is at Manotick in the north and the other one is a bit farther south at Highway 6. This causes Manotick, but not any other part of the former Rideau Township, to have close links to the former township of Osgoode, which lies on the east bank of the Rideau River.

Number two, the link between Manotick and Osgoode is reflected in the fact that the Manotick newspaper, the Manotick Messenger, circulates more widely in Osgoode than it does in Rideau, so much so that the city councillor for Osgoode ward runs a weekly column in the Manotick Messenger.

Meanwhile, the Goulbourn newspaper, The Stittsville News is the primary newspaper in the rural parts of Rideau and uses the slogan “Serving the rural Southwest of the city of Ottawa”, which of course includes Rideau.

Third, there's a strong urban-rural divide in Rideau Township, with Manotick far more closely linked to Ottawa and Richmond, which is the home of the local agricultural society and the annual Richmond Fair, serving as the hub for the rural parts of Rideau Township. Richmond, as you can see from the bottom map at tab B, is quite centrally located for most of Rideau Township, even though it is outside the boundaries of the former township. I've indicated it on the map with a pink dot.

By contrast, Manotick, which I've indicated with a green dot, is located on an island in the middle of the Rideau River and at the extreme northeast corner of the former township, and it sticks out from the rest of the township like a rhinoceros horn. As the village has been transformed into a bedroom community for the city of Ottawa, it has flowed over onto both sides of the river, with the result that a substantial proportion of the community's residents now live in the former township of Osgoode.

Fourth, school catchment areas reflect the boundaries I'm proposing. South Carleton High School, which I've indicated with a blue dot on the map, serves both Rideau and Goulborn, while North Gower-Marlborough Public School and Kars Public School have catchment areas that exactly reflect the boundary I am proposing. They take in students from all parts of Rideau except the parts immediately surrounding Manotick, which I have suggested should be left within Nepean--Carleton.

À (1000)

You'll also notice that the map I've been using to show all of this is taken from the Ottawa-Carleton Board of Education, which has created a school zone that mirrors the community of interest that exists in Ottawa's rural southwest and closely follows the boundaries I am proposing for this riding.

I turn then to South Frontenac, and I encourage you to move to tab B or tab C on your maps. You can see that South Frontenac is highlighted in yellow.

In the boundaries commission's first set of proposals, South Frontenac was linked to Leeds--Grenville County. Despite the fact that no witnesses suggested attaching it to Lanark County, this was done in the boundaries commission's second set of proposals. This change is not winning rave reviews in the local newspapers.

Here's what South Frontenac Mayor Phil Leonard said last month in The Review Mirror, a newspaper in the town of Westport, following the announcement that his township would be linked to Lanark--Frontenac--Lennox and Addington:

It's crazy, absolutely nuts. We are not tied in with people we have common interests with. Now they have us going too far north.

By contrast, there was very little opposition at the public hearings last October and November to the attachment of the township to Leeds. For example, here's what the president of the Liberal riding association for Hastings--Frontenac--Lennox and Addington, Aline Lamere, stated to the boundaries commission on November 1 last year: “When we talked to some of our members who are in South Frontenac, they had objections, obviously”--that is, to the breakup of the old riding of Hastings--Frontenac--Lennox & Addington. “But they could perceive being part of Leeds--Grenville. That was something they were not as opposed to as many of us.”

Probably the most logical link for South Frontenac would be to attach it to Kingston, but this is not possible for population reasons. Therefore, the next closest community of interest is with Leeds, and particularly with the township of Rideau Lakes in Leeds County.

Let me provide you with some examples of this community of interest. A single tourism association represents both this part of Leeds--Grenville and South Frontenac. As well, the Rideau Canal, which forms the southeastern boundary of South Frontenac, flows into Leeds--Grenville and is the key tourist attraction for both the township of Rideau Lakes and for the township of South Frontenac.

Thirdly, the same local newspapers serve both South Frontenac and Rideau Lakes. The Kingston Whig-Standard is the predominant daily newspaper in both areas, while such weekly newspapers as the Westport Review Mirror and the Frontenac News circulate in both communities.

The removal of any township from a second-tier municipality like a county is always cause for concern, but I think there's less cause to be concerned in the case of South Frontenac than would be the case in most counties. This is because the administrative apparatus of Frontenac County was largely dismantled in 1997 as a result of a unique amalgamation experiment in which the county's many townships were merged into four large townships, which took over the most important county functions, notably roads. Therefore, there would be almost no disruption to service-based community interests in the placement of this township with Leeds--Grenville.

I'll end this part of the presentation by observing that Joe Jordan, who's the MP for Leeds--Grenville, agrees with me that communities of interest are strong between the northwestern part of the constituency he now represents and the township of South Frontenac, and he supports the addition of South Frontenac to the riding of Leeds--Grenville.

Next I turn to Mississippi Mills, which I recommend moving from Carleton--Lanark riding to Lanark--Frontenac--Lennox & Addington. The map at tab C also shows the township highlighted in yellow, while Lanark County as a whole is outlined in pink. On page 10 of their report, the electoral boundaries commissioners offer the following explanation for their decision to separate Mississippi Mills from the rest of Lanark County:

At the public hearings, the mayor of the Town of Mississippi Mills indicated a desire to be united with an Ottawa-based electoral district.

Even if that were accurate, it would be a very weak position, a very weak reason for moving Mississippi Mills into a different riding from the rest of Lanark County, given that not one other presentation to the commission from any part of Lanark or any Lanark resident indicated that breaking up the county would be a good idea. But as I say, it is not an accurate summation of what the mayor of Mississippi Mills, Ron Pettem, actually said.

À (1005)

To set the record straight, I'd like to read to you from the transcript of the hearings. The concluding words in Mr. Pettem's prepared remarks to the commission, which were presented at the commission's November 5 hearing, were the following: “In order not to be completely negative, I thank you for not splitting up Lanark County.”

Mr. Pettem was then questioned by Professor Hiebert of the Electoral Boundaries Commission, and I'd like to quote from their exchange:

Professor Hiebert: But we simply cannot keep the existing Lanark--Carleton district as is. It is far too large. We have to make some splits. So we are wondering where the best split is. If we were to put Mississippi Mills with a Kanata-based district, it would mean splitting the county.

Mr. Pettem: Probably, but we wouldn't appreciate that.

Professor Hiebert: Well, I guess I'm asking you to choose.

Mr. Pettem: My municipality would prefer to stay with the City of Ottawa.

It is this comment that the commission must be citing when it states that the mayor indicated a desire to be united with an Ottawa-based electoral district. But please take note of the fact that before he stepped aside from the microphone, Mayor Pettem once again indicated his opposition to being separated from the rest of Lanark County. He said: “you...heard me state that I would prefer to stay with Kanata, but I would also like Lanark kept as a whole.”

Now, opposition to the separation of Mississippi Mills from the rest of Lanark County is deeply felt both in Mississippi Mills and in the rest of the county. Let me draw your attention to some evidence to this effect.

In April, Mississippi Mills town council passed a resolution requesting that the Electoral Boundaries Commission reconsider its decision to place the town in a separate riding from the rest of the county. Also in April, Lanark County council passed a similar resolution. As well, a scientific poll of 450 MIssissippi Mills residents conducted in April shows that 90% would prefer to be linked with the rest of the county rather than with an Ottawa-based riding. The questions and the detailed results are given in your package at tab D.

Finally, my office circulated response cards in Lanark County to gauge levels of support for keeping all parts of the county in a single riding. I don't know how many responses were received back, because Mr. Hall just brought them in this minute.

Mr. Hall, did you get a chance to count them all?

À (1010)

The Clerk of the Committee: No, because of Bill C-24; but we will count them afterwards, and maybe it can go into the report of the committee.

Mr. Scott Reid: Perhaps you could as well count the yellow and the greens separately. The yellows were sent from Mississippi Mills itself, the greens from other parts of the county. That would give an indication of the level of support. At any rate, as you can see, there are a substantial number of these response cards. A photocopy of the statement made on the response card is included at tab E in your packages.

Finally, I want to draw your attention to one other consideration, which is the deviation from the provincial norm in the populations of the various ridings. At the final tab, tab F, you'll see that the populations of the affected ridings are in each place closer to the provincial quotient under what I'm proposing than they are under the boundaries commission's proposals.

That concludes my presentation, and I'll be happy to take questions.

The Chair: The only question I have is that you have Nepean--Carleton at minus 3.43, so how much more negative will it be if we accept Mr. Manley's suggestion?

Mr. Scott Reid: Mr. Cyr would have to answer that.

Mr. André Cyr: It will take a while, because I have to go back to Mr. Manley's presentation and then include all of Mr. Reid's changes.

The Chair: Okay, you can check into that, and I'll turn to other people for questions.

Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: The riding you represent now, Mr. Reid, would be Carleton—Lanark?

Mr. Scott Reid: Right now it's Lanark—Carleton.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I understand that. But it would be Carleton—Lanark in the new proposal?

Mr. Scott Reid: You're asking which I would run in during an election?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: No, which one do you represent now? I know there's a mishmash going everywhere.

Mr. Scott Reid: If I represent Lanark—Carleton. Basically half of Lanark—Carleton, more or less, is placed into the riding to the west and half to the east, more or less.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So you don't have a real home any longer, then?

Mr. Scott Reid: I'd like to think I have two homes where I am much appreciated and greatly wanted.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well done.

I would also like to say I'm very disappointed in the organization of your arguments.

The Chair: Did you have a problem finding where he was going?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: No, without any facetiousness, I would like to say this is possibly—without question—the best organized presentation ever seen before this committee.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Mr. Reid, this is excellent.

Mr. Scott Reid: I had about 25 teachers.

Mr. Werner Schmidt (Kelowna, Canadian Alliance): It is also the most colourful.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Well, it was excellent, it really was. The only question I have is you mentioned Mr. Jordan, and we're dealing with Mr. Manley at the present time--and I appreciate that this is really an amalgam of a number of existing ridings. Have the other members who are affected by the change in boundaries you've proposed also been in agreement?

Mr. Scott Reid: The key individual is David Pratt. I've taken, on the eastern side, the Rideau Township area. The recommendation actually was his originally.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: All right. So the members this touches upon are all in agreement. There's no one we're going to find who is going to come forward saying—

Mr. Scott Reid: Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is David Pratt scheduled to appear?

The Chair: No.

À (1015)

Mr. Scott Reid: I should mention that both David and Joe offered to write letters of support, and I said it wouldn't be necessary. Would you prefer that I ask them to do that?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I have faith in you. The question has been answered. I certainly know Mr. Pratt and Mr. Jordan and know that if this isn't the case they will approach me; I can assure you of that. That's fine. Thank you.

The Chair: We're just waiting for Mr. Cyr to give us the extra number.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: The Manley proposal—

The Chair: Would make it just a bit less again.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Yes. So we're looking at the numbers.

The Chair: But it's still, of course, that larger geographic area and that big population.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: The growth potential for that south area of Manotick.... I don't know where that argument came from, but it's certainly a sold argument as far as I'm concerned.

The Chair: Brilliant—whoever came up with it.

Mr. Scott Reid: You wouldn't move all of this area over to Carleton--Lanark. What you'd do is go to Century Road; it would form the southern boundary of Nepean--Carleton, and then First Line Road would form the western boundary. The reason for that is simply that these are the built-up areas of Manotick, on this side of the river.

The Chair: What is the grey block in the middle of the yellow?

Mr. André Cyr: I didn't choose those areas.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Oh, so you're manipulating the numbers, is that it? How long has this been going on?

Mr. Scott Reid: That's it; that's the correct boundary. And also, down here, if you still have this area—

Mr. André Cyr: Yes, I have to do that.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Can I ask one question while we're playing with this?

Mr. Reid, did you ever make any presentation to the commission with all of these potential changes?

Mr. Scott Reid: Well, if you take a look at the commission's first set of proposals, they were radically different—so different that the ridings bear almost no resemblance whatsoever. But I did make a presentation. I had polled my constituents....

Actually, Donna, I wonder if you could just bring that box up here.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: No, I'm not reading the contents of that box, Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid: Okay. I'll just show this to you. These are only in English, I'm afraid, simply because I consulted my constituents only in English.

A voice: So you did that with the proposals originally.

Mr. Scott Reid: Well, I had a very different set of proposals.

I tried to make as objective a set of questions as I could. If you open the ballot up, on the inside you'll see a mail-out return ballot that asks people a series of questions as to whether they did or did not approve of the suggested changes.

I divided it into three columns. Recognizing the riding was going to be broken into two parts, which was, given the size of the riding, absolutely inevitable, I didn't ask people whether they thought keeping the riding together was a reasonable option. What I did instead was I asked everybody in the riding to answer whether they thought the ridings were good, and then a series of questions on key components of the boundaries commission's decisions respecting the boundary of the city of Ottawa, for example. The second and third columns were asked respectively to people on the two sides of the new ridings that were being created.

The results of those are all here. I got about 800, 850 back, something of that nature. I made a presentation to the boundaries commission based on those results and pointed out certain things that I thought were particularly important based on the results.

In fact, there were two things I mentioned very strongly, the two strongest responses we got in terms of percentage of people saying they thought it made sense. Number one was that Lanark County be kept whole. That was Lanark County people responding, and it was--I can't remember the exact percentage--86% or 87%, something like that. The second was that Smiths Falls be kept in the same riding as Lanark County. It's a little town where we specifically asked if they would prefer to have the town linked with the riding to its south or to its north. And there we got a response approaching 90% as well, from people preferring to stay with Lanark County, however the riding is divided up.

À (1020)

Mr. Rick Borotsik: If you don't mind, it's 44% here.

Mr. André Cyr: Kenora--Rainy River?

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Oh, that's the one. Sorry, I lost my head. I thought this was on this one.

Mr. André Cyr: No.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: So are you bucking for a position on the next commission, Mr. Reid?

Mr. Scott Reid: I don't think they accept members of Parliament, so I'm hoping I won't be eligible.

The Chair: Mr. Reid, where is your home?

Mr. Scott Reid: I am located in Carleton Place.

The Chair: And where is your constituency office?

Mr. Scott Reid: I have two constituency offices. One is located in Kanata on March Road, and the other one is located in Carleton Place.

The Chair: Mr. Cyr?

Mr. André Cyr: We have Leeds--Grenville, which is south along the St. Lawrence, at 5%; Lanark, the purple area, at 1%; Carleton, which is basically Kanata and the areas we added, Rideau Township, at 0%; and Ottawa--

The Chair: Nepean--Carleton.

Mr. André Cyr: Nepean--Carleton is minus 6%, and Ottawa South is at 10%.

The Chair: Okay. So it just moves, from Mr. Reid's presentation, just that bottom number, if we accept Manley's down to minus 6%, as opposed to minus 3.43%.

Okay, are there any other questions?

Mr. Scott Reid: Just so it will be on the record, I'm going to suggest, Madam Chair, when it comes time to make the decision on both of these two boundaries--the one regarding the two ridings I've presented on and the one regarding Ottawa South--that it be done while I step out of the room.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Scott Reid: Thank you.

The Chair: We can do it in front of you. You just won't participate in the discussion, either way.

Okay, Monsieur Lebel. Now we go over to Quebec.

Actually, Mr. Lebel,

[Translation]

could you wait outside for two minutes?

[English]

Let's just give the direction... Guys, if you just could give directions on those two to John, and then Werner can leave.

Could we just go in camera for a second?

[Editor's Note: Proceedings continue in camera]

À (1025)

The Chair: We're back into public session.

[Editor's Note: Public proceedings resume]

The Chair: Look grave, don't look the witness in the eye.

Monsieur Lebel.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: By the way, Madam Chair, we don't care about your opinion.

The Chair Right, I forgot.

Monsieur Lebel.

[Translation]

Mr. Ghislain Lebel (Chambly, Ind.): I have no objections to the proposals regarding the boundaries. It is strictly the name of my riding that is problematic.

My riding is called Chambly, and this creates a great deal of confusion. I have been the member for Chambly for the past ten years, but the residents of the towns of Beloeil and Saint-Hilaire, important communities in my riding, still think I am the member for the next riding over.

My riding of Chambly includes two entire provincial ridings, the provincial riding of Chambly and the provincial riding of Borduas. Furthermore, the town of Chambly is located in the provincial riding of Chambly; this is a large town in my riding, but it is far from representing the majority of voters or the largest area within the riding.

Therefore, I suggest that my riding be renamed “Chambly-Borduas” so that people in the current Chambly riding who are a bit outside the Chambly town limits feel the name of their federal riding includes them. That is my suggestion. It is not a matter of life or death, but I think it is only right to recognize something for what it really is.

That is the only request I have for this committee. I am prepared to answer any questions.

Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Mr. Lebel, the two provincial ridings are located entirely within your federal riding? No part of the provincial ridings of Chambly or Borduas are located in a neighbouring riding?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: That is incorrect. There is the town of Marieville—

À (1030)

The Chair: What number does this correspond to?

Mr. André Cyr: Chambly is number 39. In terms of the boundary, the map has not been changed at all.

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: On the provincial level, the town of Marieville is included in the Iberville riding, but this is very minor. There is also the town of Chambly, which is here, all around the Chambly Basin. It is a large town, but Beloeil and Saint-Hilaire are also very large towns; in fact, they are bigger than Chambly.

Mr. Michel Guimond: So, if I understand you correctly, people in the communities to the north of your riding do not consider themselves part of the Chambly riding.

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: That is correct, and I see this whenever I meet people in my riding, as all the members here do. I am introduced as Mr. Lebel, the member for the neighbouring riding of Chambly, when it is really their own riding.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Madam Chair, I would like to ask another question, please.

Did you testify before the commission when it went to your region?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Yes.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Did you raise this issue?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: I do not remember exactly, but I believe I did. It was set out in the brief that I tabled and presented. However, my testimony dealt mainly with the redistribution. It was suggested that the town of Saint-Amable be added here, since it is located in this region, although there is no major highway. This part of Saint-Aimable was truly outside the current riding of Chambly. I asked that this change not be made, and my suggestion appears to have been heeded. Now, there is the name.

Mr. Michel Guimond: You asked for the status quo?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Yes.

Mr. Michel Guimond: But you do not remember if your brief—

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: I do not know; I had focussed on the redistribution.

Mr. Michel Guimond: Okay, thank you.

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Last spring, I had already tabled a request to change the name.

Mr. Michel Guimond: You tabled it in the House?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Yes, but I think that, in the end, it was blocked in the Senate. I never heard anything more about it. So, my sole request to this committee concerns the name change, so that my constituents can see themselves reflected in the name.

The towns of Beloeil and Saint-Hilaire, which together are bigger than Chambly, are not included in the name of the riding.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Proulx, do you have any other questions?

Mr. Marcel Proulx: I just want to ensure that I have correctly understood your answer to Michel. The provincial ridings of Chambly and Borduas are completely within your riding and, in addition to these two provincial ridings, there are small sections of—

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: There is one section, called Marieville.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: If I add Chambly and Borduas?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: They are found entirely in my riding.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: They are located entirely within your federal riding. Thank you.

The Chair: When it is over, it is over.

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Okay.

The Chair: There are not many comments in the commission's report, but it is also in Bill C-300.

Are there any other questions?

Why not name the riding “Chambly—Mont-Saint-Hilaire”?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Because, Mont-Saint-Hilaire is a town like Chambly.

The Chair: And Borduas is a region.

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Borduas is a provincial riding.

Mr. Scott Reid: I hear that Mont Saint-Hilaire is one of the best known mountains in the entire region. Is that true?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Yes. The Mont Saint-Hilaire region, which is extremely beautiful, is known for its apples. Mont Saint-Hilaire is a very pretty mountain, but it is not the whole riding.

The town of Saint-Hilaire is located at the foot of Mont Saint-Hilaire, and the town of Beloeil is on the opposite side of the river. This town is quite large with 30,000 residents, while Chambly has only 18,000. However, the federal riding is identified with the town of Chambly rather than with the two ridings of Chambly and Borduas.

À (1035)

Mr. Michel Guimond: But if the riding was named “Chambly—Mont-Saint-Hilaire”, the Beloeil region would be left out.

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: That is correct.

Mr. Michel Guimond: If you are in Beloeil, you are not in the town of Saint-Hilaire.

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: True.

The Chair: I think it is Mr. Proulx's turn.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Where does the name “Borduas” come from?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: From the great painter Borduas, who was from Saint-Hilaire.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: He was born in Saint-Hilaire, and the provincial riding is called “Borduas”.

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Paul-Émile Borduas.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you.

The Chair: If the committee does not make this change, would another change be necessary later in the process, in the House of Commons or the Senate?

Mr. Ghislain Lebel: Why make things difficult, when it can be done now? I do not see anything controversial about my proposal. It seems like the perfect opportunity, so why not?

The Chair: Thank you very much.

My hon. colleagues, I want to call a two-minute break. Thank you very much.

[English]

You are finished?

Can we go back in camera?

[Editor's Note: Proceedings continue in camera]