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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, May 15, 2003

0945

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian Alliance)

0950

0955

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. John Cummins

Mr. Scott Reid

Mr. John Cummins

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Cummins

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. John Cummins

1000

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

Mr. John Cummins

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

1005

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer)

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. John Cummins

1010

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Cummins

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

The Chair

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

Mr. John Cummins

The Chair

The honourable Stephen Owen (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.)

The Chair

Hon. Stephen Owens

1015

The Chair

Hon. Stephen Owens

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Stephen Owens

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Stephen Owens

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Stephen Owens

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Stephen Owens

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Stephen Owens

Mr. Yvon Godin

1020

Hon. Stephen Owens

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Stephen Owens

The Chair

Hon. Stephen Owens

The Chair

Hon. Stephen Owens

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Scott Reid

Hon. Stephen Owens

The Chair

Hon. Stephen Owens

The Chair

Hon. Stephen Owens

The Chair

The honourable Hedy Fry (Vancouver Centre, Lib.)

1025

1030

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Hedy Fry

1035

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Hon. Hedy Fry

1040

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. André Cyr

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Rick Borotsik

Mr. André Cyr

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Rick Borotsik

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

1045

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

Hon. Hedy Fry

The Chair

CANADA

Subcommittee on Electoral Boundaries Readjustment of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs

NUMBER 009

2nd SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Thursday, May 15, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿ (0945)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): I'll call this meeting to order. We are the subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. We're dealing with electoral boundaries readjustment, and our first guest this morning is John Cummins, who has been before this committee before. He was sent home to do some homework, and now he's back.

Why don't I turn it over to you, John, and you can start your comments.

Mr. John Cummins (Delta—South Richmond, Canadian Alliance): Thank you very much, Chair, and I appreciate the opportunity to be here this morning.

The proposal I have this morning takes into consideration the advice I received from this committee a week ago. I do have a written presentation as well, which I don't intend to read to you, but it's there for your reference after.

Just as a very quick aside, I'm in the tenth year of representing this area, yet these are the third boundary changes that have been proposed in that time. In a sense, it's confusing to the constituents when large changes are made. The reality is, these changes are all about them and not so much about us, so I think the changes should be made with great caution, and that's the sense behind or the basis of the changes I'm suggesting here this morning.

Now, I gave each of you a map, and if you would refer to that map, I'll explain it.

The area outlined in green, the area to the south, is the existing boundary of the riding. As you can see on the west, the boundary is William, and it runs over to No. 3 road, where it drops down to the Steveston Highway, continues over the freeway, down through the tunnel, and then up the river where it pokes up and takes in Annacis Island, and then it runs along 96th Avenue in Surrey and straight down Scott Road.

That boundary includes all of the corporation of Delta, and it includes the Steveston area of Richmond. That riding is a reasonably good fit because it includes the Steveston area. Steveston was the largest commercial fishing port in Canada at one time. It also includes the fishing port at Ladner, which is just directly below Steveston, and it includes the large fishing port of Annieville, which is up in the upper right hand corner near Annacis Island in North Delta.

So there is a community of interest in the riding.

The area in yellow is the proposed boundary, and as you can see, it deviates dramatically from the existing boundary. In the Richmond area, it moves the boundary south from William to the Steveston Highway, over to the No. 3 road, up to Francis, across and up No. 4 road. It takes in that whole east end of Richmond, which currently is part of the Richmond riding. Then it excludes North Delta entirely, so Delta is effectively split in two.

The proposal I would make is one that I think is a natural extension, if you will, of the existing boundaries. It deviates the least from the existing boundaries, and I think it will lead to less confusion in the minds of the voters in terms of who their MP is.

On the way over I was talking with my parliamentary assistant. He said “I live in Ottawa South, but I don't know where the boundaries of that are”. And that's part of the problem in urban ridings--people really don't know where the boundaries are. Once a boundary becomes established in people's minds, it's there, but if you deviate dramatically from it, you create confusion, and I don't think that's good.

What I'm proposing here in Richmond, on the west end, is to move the existing boundary from William up to Francis, and to go across Francis, as you can see, to No. 4 road, and then down to the Steveston Highway, across to the tunnel, then up the river.

The reason for that is it just expands the Steveston portion of the riding. There's no dramatic change there; it's just an extension of the boundary. I think it's easier for people to understand what has happened to them.

In fact, William is an artificial boundary for Steveston anyway, and this is probably as good a boundary as any for the Steveston area of Richmond.

¿ (0950)

Then, when you get into North Delta, what I've done there is I've cut into the Newton--North Delta riding at 96th Avenue, Scott Road, and then down Nordel Way. Nordel Way is a four-lane highway, if you will, that runs from Highway 91, the north-south boundary there, and goes off into Surrey. It is a dramatic split in North Delta. North of Nordel Way, included then in my proposal, are the fishing communities of Annieville and Sunbury, which are two of the oldest fishing communities in Delta. What I'm suggesting then is to go up Nordel Way, which you can see more clearly I think on the map I gave you. It includes this area of Annieville and Sunbury. Those two areas have a natural connection with Ladner and with Steveston. The important point is that it provides a connection between north and south Delta for that MP. You're not completely severing one end of the riding from another or one end of the Delta municipality from another. It forces, if you will, some continuity and it forces someone to look at the big picture of what is affecting Delta as well. I think from a social point of view it's a good move. As I say, the connection is there between those fishing communities, and there is a lot of connection there.

Now, what does it do to the numbers? In the ridings that exist, Delta--Richmond East was going to have 103,045, Richmond 106,000, and Newton--North Delta 111,000. The proposal I'm making, Delta--East Richmond riding--and I would suggest it be referred to as Delta--South Richmond because there's continuity there in maintaining the name and it would reflect the proposal I'm making so that the name wouldn't change--would have, as you can see on the back page of the presentation I gave you, 106,000 people. Richmond would be bumped to 115,000. That's not a large number from Richmond because it's a compact area contained in one municipality. Currently in my riding I have over 120,000 people and it's not a problem. So I don't see that as a problem. It would reduce the Newton--North Delta riding at this point to 98,000.

But I understand you have before you some suggested changes to the Newton--North Delta riding anyway, and it would seem to me that adjustments could be made within Surrey to balance that out without dramatically altering the Surrey ridings. In fact, Surrey is the largest growing municipality in the lower mainland. That wouldn't be harmful at all.

I think this proposal I have is a good bridge between what we have now and what we expect after the next census. In talking to some of the folks, at the next census it's expected that the population of Richmond will warrant two MPs and the population of Surrey will warrant four. That would leave Delta then reverting to a single MP.

The key issue here I guess is that by extending the boundary into North Delta in that Annieville-Surrey area is that it continues the connection between the two communities. I think it's important that no further separation take place, for a variety of reasons, including, as I said, the historical connections. The issues of transportation and whatnot that affect all of Delta will then be recognized, if you will, by the federal boundary. There's going to certainly be an onus on the member then from that Delta--South Richmond riding, as I propose it, to look at the big picture of Delta.

¿ (0955)

That's what's missing in the proposed Delta--Richmond East riding, that inability, if you will, for anyone to look at the big picture of what's going to affect that municipality. I think that is most important. I think the letters of support I had for keeping Delta whole in this proposal, although not possible, is reflected in the proposal I make, and I think it's most important.

Madam Chair, that concludes what I had to say. If there are any questions, I'd be glad to try to respond.

The Chair: Mr. Borotsik, you were so excited to see Mr. Cummins here again. Did you have a question?

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC): Will he be coming back? Is there another proposal? I'm being facetious, John, I'm sorry. I appreciate the redoing of the numbers. What we have to do now, I think, is go back.... Mr. Grewal was here and he had some suggestions and changes to that whole White Rock--South Surrey--North Delta area, so we have to look at those things. I can appreciate you coming back and I can appreciate your passion in incorporating that area of Delta into the Delta--Richmond constituency.

I understand, Madam Chair, thank you.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Reid.

Mr. Scott Reid (Lanark—Carleton, Canadian Alliance): I've jotted down the numbers you give for the three different ridings in your proposal. One of the ridings, Newton--North Delta, is one that would be affected by some proposals made by Gurmant Grewal. I'm just wondering if you've discussed this with him or if you have any idea.... How did the population...? You've given 98,000. Is that under your proposal incorporating the changes he is also making?

Mr. John Cummins: That 98,000 just represents the 12,000-and-some-odd people who are in the Annieville-Sunbury area of Delta that I'm removing from the riding. All I did was just take that number away from the 111,000 and say, well, you're left with 98,147 in Newton--North Delta and you should be able to pick that up, I think, quite easily if you want to bump that up four or five thousand in any rejigging you do in Surrey.

Mr. Scott Reid: Does his proposal push up the population of that riding to take into account...? I realize he didn't do it for this purpose. I'm wondering if his proposal alleviates the problem of that riding having a smaller population or if it actually exacerbates it. You don't know, do you?

Mr. John Cummins: I don't know the answer to that, Mr. Reid.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Madam Chair, I do have one question. Just out of curiosity, why was it that Mr. Cummins, under his proposal, incorporated the line in Francis as opposed to William? William was the old boundary. Why would you make that Francis?

Mr. John Cummins: If I did it at William, it would only add 37,000 people, I think it was. There wouldn't be enough people in the Richmond portion to counterbalance taking out the east end, so I had to bounce it up to Francis to have a sufficient number of people in that Richmond section.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Then I go back to a comment you made with respect to when boundaries are in place, people have a tendency of knowing where those boundaries are. Is that not a contradiction of the comments you made before? The people in Richmond now will have a change of that boundary and they won't be used to where that boundary has been in the previous election.

Mr. John Cummins: Precisely, but the changes I'm proposing are a natural extension of the existing boundary. The existing boundary is in green, and I'm saying, push it up one more major street. There is no major street between William and Francis. It just pushes it up one more major street, and then I extend it east one major street from No. 3 road to No. 4 road, so the impact on Richmond is small. But it's a natural extension. The proposal the commission has made is a complete rewriting of the Richmond riding and it adds a whole different element to it. It changes the whole flavour of that Richmond end. It's a dramatic change, and I don't think it's necessary. That's why I think what I'm proposing here, just bumping up to Francis and moving over to No. 3, has the least impact and allows for people to make the association. They would say, oh well, the boundary has moved. It's not difficult to grasp, but man, you move that whole east Richmond in and people have no idea where they are--none.

À (1000)

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Thank you, Madam Chair.

When the Commission presented its first report, did that include the present proposal? Did the people from Delta--Richmond East have a chance to make presentations? There should have been hearings, so I would like to know if the changes have been made at the very end and whether the people from that region had a chance to make presentations? Did anyone challenge the Commission's proposal in the riding?

[English]

Mr. John Cummins: Yes. Actually, there was considerable concern in Delta municipality about the municipality being split into two. People wanted Delta municipality to remain in one riding. That was a huge concern. I did bring to the committee the last time copies of the letter from the mayor and the two Liberal MLAs from that area who supported keeping Delta whole.

The committee suggested to me last time that it wasn't going to be possible to accommodate that request. That's why I came back with the altered request and extended the boundaries of Delta--Richmond East into North Delta, so somebody is going to have responsibility for both of the areas of the community. And there is a continuity there. Someone is going to be forced to look at the whole picture in Delta.

With regard to Richmond, I talked to the mayor and the councillors in Richmond on this issue. Many of the people I talked to thought the boundary--the way the split had been made--was an unusual one. My suggestion was to make the change I proposed, and people seemed to think that made more sense than the commission's proposal. Richmond's big concern is they feel they ought to have two MPs anyway, because it is a growing community, and next time around I'm sure they will.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Did the mayors or other concerned people make presentations to the Commission?

[English]

Mr. John Cummins: In Delta the mayor did and the two MLAs did. In Richmond I'm not aware of there being presentations by the mayor and the councillors. I did have private conversations. It was more that it was unusual; it wasn't something that particularly upset them. There is no ward system in municipal politics. People are elected at large.

My point of view is that the change should be incremental. There should be a natural extension of the existing boundary. That's what I am proposing, and I think it makes a lot more sense than the commission's proposal.

The Chair: Merci beaucoup, Mr. Godin.

I'll need some support from you, Mr. Cyr.

How many people live between Steveston Highway and Francis Road, in that little quadrant along Highway 99? To me, as I look at the city street map, William and Francis are fine streets. There are some other ones in there. I just think if I was in the constituency office and I wanted to know which road you lived north or south of, north or south of the Steveston Highway seems a more obvious break than that little jog along Francis and No. 4. How many people are in that cube--Steveston as far as Francis, between No. 4 and the water?

À (1005)

Mr. André Cyr (Project Manager, Electoral Geography Division, Register and Geography Directorate, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer): As far east as No. 3, there are 27,000. I'll go to No. 4.

The Chair: There are 27,000? What are they living in?

Mr. Scott Reid: Madam Chair, I think, though, you're trying to get between Francis and William, right? Francis is at the top of the area you're taking.

The Chair: So it's three streets--Francis, William, and Steveston.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes, 27,000, as far east as No. 3 road, and if you go as far east as No. 4 road, there are almost 37,000.

The Chair: Come on! What are the streets?

Mr. John Cummins: It's a fairly high-end neighbourhood. There are a lot of townhouses and that sort of accommodation at the western end, along by the dyke. But it's a compact, urban area.

The Chair: I'll say.

Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Are they normal blocks? From north to south, how far is it?

Mr. André Cyr: It's a kilometre and a half from north to south.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay, and east to west?

Mr. André Cyr: Almost six kilometres east to west, up to No. 4 road.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: That's the size of Aylmer.

The Chair: That's an impressive group of people.

Well, that answers that question. I guess Francis Road looks like a very logical street to pick.

Mr. John Cummins: It's logical because it's the next major street up from William, and going east and west between No. 3 road and No. 4 road, it's the next major thoroughfare. It's a natural boundary.

The Chair: And between No. 4 road and the Fraser-Delta throughway...that little square.

Mr. John Cummins: Yes.

My numbers--and I could be corrected on this. It could be done...if I had extended the Francis line through to the freeway, there would have been 60,530 people in the Richmond section, 45,000 in the South Delta section, and 12,903 in the Annieville-Sunbury area, for a total in the riding then of 118,754.

The Chair: Which would put you above variance.

Mr. John Cummins: And that's a workable number, to be quite honest. That's about what I have now.

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Cyr.

Mr. André Cyr: There are 10,000 in that additional area between No. 4 road and the Delta Highway.

The Chair: So that would put his numbers up to 118,000?

Mr. André Cyr: There have been a lot of numbers thrown out. It might be 125,000--I'm not sure. I'd have to recalculate them.

The Chair: All right, we'll check that.

The only reason I asked that question is it tends to be nicer to go straight across, and as I say, I've had some familiarity with answering the phones, and sometimes it's easier to just be above or below, east or west.

Mr. John Cummins: Absolutely, and I don't have any problem with that.

Sir, the numbers I had were 45,321 in the Ladner-Tsawwassen area in Delta, and then 12,900 in North Delta. I came up with a total of 118,000. That's certainly a doable size in an urban riding, as far as I'm concerned. It's what we deal with now and it's not out of the question at all.

À (1010)

The Chair: Okay.

Mr. Proulx, last question.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you.

Is there a line between No. 4 road and the Fraser-Delta throughway? Would Frances continue there, or does Francis stop at No. 4 road?

Mr. John Cummins: It actually continues.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Right through to the Fraser-Delta?

Mr. John Cummins: Almost.

The Chair: On the city map, just to clarify, it stops at No. 4 road, and the Shell Road runs up between the two of them, as does No. 5 road.

Mr. Scott Reid: Is it just a name change?

The Chair: No, it's actually a dead end. But it looks like there are some condos or something. Francis ends at No. 4 road. It jogs slightly.

Mr. John Cummins: That's right.

The Chair: Whereas Blundell Road goes right through...but you're going to No. 4 road. It would end at No. 4 road.

Mr. John Cummins: Francis does end at No. 4 road, yes.

The Chair: We'll look at the numbers and the different configurations, but I think the spirit of what you're suggesting is fully understood.

Mr. John Cummins: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I do appreciate that.

The Chair: It was nice seeing you again.

We now have Minister Owen, whose riding is Vancouver Quadra.

For those of you who have all of your documentation, the map they originally consulted on is on page 13, and in the book it's on page 48.

Just so you know, Mr. Owen, Mr. Cyr, who is helping you with the maps, is from Elections Canada, so if you're going to propose any different combinations, he can compute them on the computer. There's also a laser pointer you're welcome to use. We just caution you not to blind any of the committee members, especially the chair.

The honourable Stephen Owen (Vancouver Quadra, Lib.): Thank you.

The Chair: Start any time you're ready.

Hon. Stephen Owens: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to meet with you.

I don't have any difficulty with the new boundaries as proposed, but I do think that since they involve both the boundaries of my riding as well as my colleague Hedy Fry's, we may have different things to say about this. They impact both of our ridings.

In terms of the new boundaries as proposed, I'm satisfied with them, because although I lose a portion of the southeast of the riding, that is made up by what I'm gaining in the northeast. My suggestion is that it is a logical adjustment, certainly on the easterly side of the northeast quadrant along Arbutus Street. Arbutus has been a transportation corridor since the 1920s, I think. Going north from 16th Street, it naturally divides east and west, so there's a real logic to this, and I imagine it's what the commission had in mind.

The suggestion I have brought to your committee is that the name not be changed from Vancouver Quadra to Quadra. The difficulty with Quadra itself is there's no geographical street name or whatever, no direct association with Quadra alone in Vancouver. In fact, it's quite confusing for it to be only Quadra because Quadra Island is in the North Vancouver Island riding of John Duncan. If it was Quadra alone, it would just create a lot of confusion. I get confusion from people anyway, who cannot quite understand how it can be Quadra and Vancouver, because they're very distant. One is half way up Vancouver Island.

I think it would be confusing and unfortunate to simply have Quadra. Captain Vancouver and Captain Quadra met in the 1800s at Nootka Sound at the northwest end of Vancouver Island to create a peace treaty, between Spain and Britain at the time, over various claims to the west coast. I don't know if that's the derivation of connecting Vancouver and Quadra; it has some historical interest from that point of view as well, but I think it would serve no purpose to remove Vancouver from the Vancouver Quadra name.

So, Madam Chair, those are my submissions. I do stress the importance of not losing the addition to the northwest of the riding, having lost the portion on the southeast.

À (1015)

The Chair: Okay, certainly I'll express--

Hon. Stephen Owens: If I can assist with the pointer, that portion there is what was lost off the current riding, and this portion here is added. So I'm losing this and gaining that, which I think is a bit of a saw-off.

The Chair: Thank you.

I'll turn to questions, starting with Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Thank you.

I can well understand, Mr. Owen, your reluctance to have just simply Quadra, but why would you not consider something like Vancouver West, which perhaps would have a better geographical location for that particular riding? Even with Quadra, Vancouver Quadra would still be confusing, as you indicated. All four points of the compass seem to be used in that whole area. Have you ever considered something like Vancouver West?

Hon. Stephen Owens: I don't think the constituents of that area would mind Vancouver West, but I can see two problems with it. One, there is a historical attachment to Vancouver Quadra--people understand it, they recognize it, they're attached to it.

The problem with Vancouver West is that, north of Burrard Inlet, we have West Vancouver, so that might confuse things.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: You say you have lost Vancouver South. Was that territory removed from your present riding?

[English]

Hon. Stephen Owens: Yes, this whole piece there is lost from the current riding, and what is added is this piece here. It's a similar population.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Vancouver East.

[English]

Hon. Stephen Owens: Yes, I guess the Vancouver East riding now takes this portion.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: It means that Vancouver East goes down.

[English]

Hon. Stephen Owens: This part I guess becomes....

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Can we see what that would give us now for Vancouver East?

[English]

Hon. Stephen Owens: It's Vancouver South, Vancouver East.... I'm not sure about that. It would affect Burrard, which my colleague Hedy Fry will speak to you about.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: We don't know.

À (1020)

[English]

Hon. Stephen Owens: There are various impacts between Vancouver East and Vancouver--

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: It would rather be Vancouver South.

[English]

Hon. Stephen Owens: Yes, in the southeast it affects them.

The Chair: Can I just confirm something while we're getting those numbers? If the riding was to stay the way it currently is, would you be opposed to that?

Hon. Stephen Owens: No, I wouldn't at all. I'm indifferent between staying as it is now and accepting it as it's been proposed. I'm concerned about losing the portion in the southeast and not gaining the portion in the northeast.

The Chair: But this wouldn't really happen because of the numbers they'd have to make up if you lose that one section. Right now your riding is proposed to be 4% over the provincial average; your current riding right now varies by 5.45%. You're getting a little smaller in terms of population, but it's roughly the same. I believe we're going to hear from several other people in the B.C. area in your neighbourhood.

So if the riding was to stay the way it is right now, that wouldn't be a problem for you?

Hon. Stephen Owens: No, it wouldn't.

The Chair: Mr. Cyr.

Mr. André Cyr: I wasn't looking at the numbers. Monsieur Godin asked for the neighbouring riding of Vancouver South. It moves to the west and loses the area of Burnaby to the east. Ridings with the commission don't seem to be shifting--

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: Is it Burnaby--New Westminster?

[English]

The Chair: Okay.

[Translation]

Are there any other questions?

Mr. Reid.

[English]

Mr. Scott Reid: This may have come up earlier, but other than the island, Quadra Island, which is nowhere near your constituency, what is the connection with Quadra? Officer Quadra and his actions on behalf of the Spanish government took place on Vancouver Island also, and Nootka Sound. Is there any connection, other than an arbitrary choice by a previous boundaries commission to give it the name Quadra?

Hon. Stephen Owens: That may be it. There is a Quadra Street, but it's of no significance particularly. It does have historical attachment to the constituents.

The Chair: Having a riding named after a little peace initiative isn't so bad.

Hon. Stephen Owens: Absolutely. In the past I worked as a professional mediator, so I like the idea of the Vancouver-Quadra meeting; it's good for anecdotes.

The Chair: Is it true that there is a Quadra Street?

Hon. Stephen Owens: There is a Quadra Street somewhere in Vancouver East, but it has no particular attachment to Vancouver Quadra.

The Chair: We're all for peace.

All right, colleagues, thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Owen.

We will now hear from Ms. Fry, the Honourable Doctor Fry, who is currently the member for Vancouver Centre, which I gather they're now proposing be called Burrard.

The maps are on the same pages you already have.

Okay, Dr. Fry.

The honourable Hedy Fry (Vancouver Centre, Lib.): Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I want to thank everyone for having me come and present to you this morning.

I am concerned about two changes: the change of the name Vancouver Centre to Burrard, and a very small sliver of the change in the western boundary, which I think would completely decimate a community of interest.

I have actually been contacted by numerous voters living in that area who believe we're splitting their community of interest. I have also been contacted by three parties in Vancouver Centre--the NDP, the Alliance, and the Progressive Conservative--who also agree with both of my concerns about the change of the name and that little sliver being given on the west side.

I'd like to deal with the name change first. Vancouver Centre has borne the name Vancouver Centre since 1917. It is in fact the centre of the city of Vancouver. All of the financial district, all of the office buildings, all of the centres for NGOs, the downtown campuses of three universities, are there. It's where all the hotels are, all the restaurants. It is where you stay, Madam Chair, when you come into Vancouver. It is the centre of Vancouver. That's the first thing. This historic and factual geography would now be denied by changing the name to Burrard.

More important is the way the names have been changed. We will now have West Vancouver, which is across the inlet and is a completely different municipality not in the city of Vancouver at all. Then they've maintained the name North Vancouver, which is again another municipality not in the city of Vancouver at all, and they've kept the names South Vancouver and East Vancouver, which are south of Vancouver and east of Vancouver.

So if anyone who does not know Vancouver looks at that map, what they will think is that West Vancouver is the west side of Vancouver, North Vancouver is the north part of the city of Vancouver, and then there is East Vancouver and South Vancouver. That would be really misleading, to say the least, because it wouldn't be so. They're totally different municipalities.

To take away the “Centre”, the metropolitan area of Vancouver, to take away its name and call it Burrard would, I think, be an awful mistake, and again, most people are quite appalled at the idea.

Finally, there is one small thing. The provincial riding of Vancouver Burrard is about half the riding of Vancouver Centre, and it would create an enormous amount of confusion for constituents in Vancouver Centre, who wouldn't know where they are because they would look at the provincial boundaries and think they were theirs.

Vancouver Centre has been moved--its western boundary has been moved back and forth--so often within the space of three elections, some people don't even know who their MP is. In 1993 it was moved all the way to Blanca. In 1997 it was moved to Alma, and then in 2000 it stayed the same for one election. Now they're proposing to shift it entirely. We're very concerned about changing the name--at least it's the first concern.

The second concern is this. There were 131,000 voters in Vancouver Centre in 2000. By shifting the boundaries, Vancouver Centre has been cut to 105,000 from 131,000. I don't have any concern about that. I believe Vancouver Centre is very dense and I don't have a problem with this. The original proposal was to move Vancouver Centre's eastern boundary to Main Street.

Now, Libby Davies, my colleague who represents Vancouver East, was very concerned about that move because it divided the community of interest of the downtown east side, and I agreed with her wholeheartedly. I believe, and so did the mayor, that the downtown east side is a very specific community of interest with extraordinary problems. I believe dividing it would do a disservice to the community.

So what happened is everyone on the Electoral Boundaries Commission agreed with not moving it to Main Street, but they continued to leave the western boundary at Arbutus, which is where they had moved it. However, by putting the western boundary in Arbutus, they have divided a community of interest called Kitsilano.

À (1025)

Kitsilano is a small area in Vancouver Centre that is very proud. When you come off the Burrard Street Bridge, you see the sign that says, “Welcome to Kitsilano”. Now what we're doing is we're taking out of Kitsilano, Kitsilano High School, Kitsilano Community Centre, and a big chunk of Kitsilano Beach. So we're asking not for a huge move, but I'm merely asking, on behalf of my voters who have written to me, and with the support of the other three political parties of Vancouver Centre--the NDP, the Progressive Conservatives, and the Alliance--that we shift the western boundary to Trafalgar, which is two large city blocks. That would increase the Vancouver Centre voters list from 105,000 to about an extra 1,500 voters. It would not decimate Mr. Owen's riding at all, but it would keep a community of interest intact. I am asking for that very small change. It's to shift the western boundary, if you see it now--

À (1030)

The Chair: Is Trafalgar after MacDonald?

Hon. Hedy Fry: No, Trafalgar is before MacDonald.

The Chair: So our map isn't showing Trafalgar.

Hon. Hedy Fry: No, because they're very tiny blocks.

The Chair: I'm working with a city map and I don't have Trafalgar.

Hon. Hedy Fry: It's just that they contain very key parts of Kitsilano, which is the Kitsilano High School and the Kitsilano Community Centre.

The Chair: And Trafalgar runs parallel to Arbutus and MacDonald?

Hon. Hedy Fry: It does, yes.

Mr. André Cyr: Five blocks east.

The Chair: I think we should return this map we paid for.

Mr. André Cyr: There are 14,000 in the area between Arbutus and Trafalgar

Hon. Hedy Fry: No, it's 20,000 between Arbutus and Blenheim, which is about another 15 blocks. These are single-family dwellings, a lot of them, so the voters list will not change too substantially at all.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: There's quite a discrepancy between 1,400 and 14,000.

The Chair: So keeping the same southern boundary?

Hon. Hedy Fry: Yes.

The Chair: And how many people do you have in that area?

Mr. André Cyr: You have 14,000.

The Chair: So what would that make her riding altogether?

Hon. Hedy Fry: It should go from 131,000 to 105,000.

The Chair: Hang on, we have the guy with the calculator.

Hon. Hedy Fry: I lost 26,000 voters in my riding with the change.

The Chair: But you're in an urban centre, so we don't mind when you guys are a little over.

Hon. Hedy Fry: This is why I'm not protesting the changes at all, with the exception of having agreed with Ms. Davies about the communities of interest. So my concern here is the community of interest. We're keeping most of Kitsilano, but losing the school and the community centre. I have had letters and calls that show people are quite concerned about this.

The Chair: Are you ready?

Mr. André Cyr: The total is 120,000 for the riding. That's a deviation of 11% above the quotient.

The Chair: What does it do to his riding?

Mr. André Cyr: Quadra is at minus 9%, 99,000.

The Chair: All right. Are there any questions?

Mr. Borotsik.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It's just that I know the area and I won't dispute the name, although Burrard is a major street in that whole sector of Vancouver Centre. Burrard is “the” street, correct?

Hon. Hedy Fry: You know it because you know the area.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I know Burrard. Where you want to shift from Arbutus over that five blocks--is Arbutus not a major thoroughfare? Would you not consider that to be a boundary, if you will, a natural--it's not natural, obviously, it's a man-made boundary between Quadra and Vancouver Centre. I'm already using Vancouver Centre.

Hon. Hedy Fry: Not necessarily, because historically that boundary used to stop at MacDonald. Between MacDonald and Burrard, it was considered to be Kits, that part of Vancouver known as Kits, or Kitsilano.

I think most people are not, and I am not, too worried. I know people are, but I'm not. I am just concerned that we're losing the school and community centre from Kitsilano, which are core areas. A lot of my voters' children go to the school there. A lot of my voters use the community centre. It's been a place where they have met over and over. I have been to townhall meetings there. So there is that concern.

I am not set on necessarily depriving Mr. Owen of a lot of his.... I understand his problem. If we can find a way to incorporate some blocks that would keep the school and would keep the community centre, I would not have a big problem. We need not go up as far as at 16th. In fact, we could do a little jog that cuts off at 12th in the north, so 12th would be the northern boundary, just to go to Trafalgar. Perhaps we can see what that would do.

When we looked at the map, we did not get that large a number of voters as 14,000 at all.

À (1035)

Mr. Rick Borotsik: How did you calculate the 1,400, Mrs. Fry?

Hon. Hedy Fry: It is 1,500.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: How did you calculate 1,500? We have 14,000.

Hon. Hedy Fry: I know you have. We calculated it from looking at the polls.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: The area that's identified in yellow is what you've suggested, up to 12th Avenue, across to Taylor, and then down. It would incorporate the community centre and the school.

Is that correct?

Hon. Hedy Fry: No, sorry.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It would be the area to the north.

Hon. Hedy Fry: It would be the area to the north of that.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Okay. It's the pink area that they've incorporated.

Hon. Hedy Fry: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: What's the population of that, Mr. Cyr? Do you know?

Mr. André Cyr: It's 12,400.

The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Doctor. I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind the changes. I think you're absolutely right, as far as the name is concerned. You can't have a west, a north, an east, and a south without having a centre.

The Chair: Especially when it is one.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Figures show us that in 1991 Vancouver Centre had 102,000. In 2001, as you said, it's up to 131,000.

Are we looking at the exact same riding? Were there any changes in the boundary between 1991 and 2001? Does it mean you have an increase of 29,000 in the same riding?

Hon. Hedy Fry: There have been....

The Chair: Just a second. Since you're using this chart, Mr. Cyr will tell us what this chart is. I know what I think it is, but he'll tell us.

Mr. André Cyr: If you are all looking at the chart with the 1991 and 2001 population, those are the current ridings and the results of the census from Stats Can. Vancouver Centre increased from 102,000 to 131,000.

The Chair: It's the same boundaries joined together.

Mr. André Cyr: Correct.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: In other words, it's the same territory. They've adjusted the 1991 territories to be equal to the 2001 territory.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes, and the population increased by almost 30,000 over a period of ten years.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Is it in the same territory?

Mr. André Cyr: It is the same territory.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Okay. That answers my question.

The Chair: It's the riding of 1996. It's the riding that Dr. Fry ran in 1997 and in 2000. Over ten years, it increased by 29,000 people for that exact same piece.

Hon. Hedy Fry: I would like to point out that the boundaries haven't changed over that period of time.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, this is what he's saying.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Hon. Hedy Fry: But prior to 1996, it had also been moved from Blanca Street to Alma Street.

The Chair: The ridings may have changed, but the piece of paper we have has the same district, called Vancouver Centre, that was created in 1996--what the numbers were in 1991 and what the numbers were in 2001 on the same piece of land.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: To me, it explains why they've played with the territory, if I can call it that. There was too much population to leave it as is.

The Chair: Right.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you.

Hon. Hedy Fry: They have moved the eastern boundary further east, though. The eastern boundary has been Cambie Street for quite a while. If they kept the eastern boundary at Cambie Street and moved to Trafalgar, with the northern boundary being 12th Avenue, the total would drop.

I'm well aware that the density is high. I really am very concerned about the cutting up of Kitsilano because I have had so many calls about it.

Nothing I am saying here is written in stone. I would be quite prepared for the eastern boundary to drop back to Cambie because it has now taken away a piece of Ms. Davies' eastern riding. I don't care one way or the other. If you shift it from Ontario, which is now where the boundary is going to be, back to Cambie, it could cut back some of the increased population that would be taken out.

À (1040)

The Chair: No, that's fine.

Mr. Owen's riding is physically geographically larger than Ms. Fry's. If you look at the FED certification report and compare Burrard to Quadra, one is 23 square kilometres and one is 65 square kilometres. We could argue that her riding might change slightly in the two urban areas, but it would continue to be much denser than his.

Does anyone have any other questions?

Can I ask one? Does Vancouver Burrard make any sense, in terms of a name, or not?

Hon. Hedy Fry: No, it doesn't. The Vancouver Burrard provincial riding is a much smaller circumscribed area with Burrard as its boundary.

The Chair: Right. Okay.

Mr. André Cyr: Would you like to know what the population is in the eastern section?

Hon. Hedy Fry: Yes, between Cambie and Ontario.

Mr. André Cyr: The area is roughly 6,000.

The Chair: According to the FED certification report, Vancouver East is minus 1%. Again, it's 26 kilometres. I don't know why it couldn't be upped a little bit.

Mr. André Cyr: That's right. Almost 6,000 in the area is taken from Vancouver East.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: To make sure, are we saying we would be adding 14,000 for the west section and would then remove 6,000 for the east section, so we'd be back to 113,000 roughly?

The Chair: Yes.

Hon. Hedy Fry: If we drop the northern boundary to 12th Avenue, between Arbutus and whatever, we'd lose another 2,000.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Then we lose our north.

The Chair: We like nice clean lines.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: Yes, exactly.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: Madam Chair, if you recall when Mr. Owen was here, he said he didn't mind losing the southerly portion as long as he gained the northerly portion that was coming from Dr. Fry's riding.

The Chair: Right. Dr. Fry is suggesting a piece of the north, not all of the north.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I appreciate that, but still it's 14,000 people of that piece. Mr. Owen is not gaining anything else.

The Chair: We haven't heard from the Vancouver South person yet.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: It's true. We may be giving some back.

The Chair: I have a feeling we are going to hear from them.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: I only want that noted. It would affect, certainly, Mr. Owen's presentation that he just made.

Hon. Hedy Fry: Mr. Owen also said he wouldn't mind keeping the piece on the southern part that was lost.

The Chair: Mr. Cyr has a point.

Mr. André Cyr: He would gain almost 17,000 from Vancouver South.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: If we gave him back....

Mr. André Cyr: Vancouver Quadra, sorry, would gain 17,000 from Vancouver Centre.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That was already reflected in his numbers. He would effectively lose 14,000.

Mr. André Cyr: Yes.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: That's what he would lose.

Mr. André Cyr: Correct.

Mr. Marcel Proulx: This is not for this particular witness, but we could give back to Vancouver Quadra the section from Vancouver South that he's lost.

Mr. Rick Borotsik: He said he was happy.

The Chair: We'll have to see what the numbers are in Vancouver South and what they are proposing.

Monsieur Godin.

[Translation]

Mr. Yvon Godin: I think that you were going to give a little more to section S, the last section you were talking about. This is already included in Ms. Libby Davies' riding. So, we can imagine that she will not be opposed to this.

[English]

Hon. Hedy Fry: I don't think so, no. Although we did agree on the part that was taken away and has now been given back, the downtown east side, I agreed with her and supported her on that.

The Chair: We can check. Who is Vancouver South?

À (1045)

Hon. Hedy Fry: Mr. Dhaliwal.

The Chair: Which one is Sophia Leung's riding?

Hon. Hedy Fry: Vancouver Kingsway.

The Chair: Okay. We're going to hear from Ms. Leung, but we have not had a request from Mr. Dhaliwal.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Dr. Fry.

We will now go in camera for a couple of minutes, colleagues. We could probably make some decisions about Alberta and some of the B.C. ones so far, hopefully.

[Proceedings continue in camera]