PACP Committee Meeting

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in a televised session at 8:51 a.m. this day, in Room 237-C, Centre Block, the Chair, David Christopherson, presiding.

Malcolm Allen moved, — That this meeting continue in public.

After debate, the question was put on the motion and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Mathieu Ravignat — 4; NAYS: Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 7.

Gerry Byrne moved, — That, pursuant to S.O. 108(3)(g), the Standing Committee on Public Accounts immediately begin a study of Chapter 2, Replacing Canada’s Fighter Jets, of the Spring 2012 Report of the Auditor General of Canada, and that the witness list include, but not be limited to:

• François Guimont, Deputy Minister of Public Works and Government Services Canada;

• Craig Morris, Deputy Director, F-35 Industrial Participation, Industry Canada;

• Richard Dicerni, Deputy Minister, Industry Canada;

• Johanne Provencher, Director General, Defence and Major Projects Directorate, Public Works and Government Services Canada;

• Tom Ring, Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada;

• Col D.C. Burt, Director, New Generation Fighter Capability, National Defence;

• Michael J. Slack, F-35 Project Manager, Director of Continental Materiel Cooperation, National Defence;

• LGen J.P.A. Deschamps, Chief of the Air Staff, National Defence;

• Dan Ross, Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), National Defence;

• Kevin Page, Parliamentary Budget Officer;

• Michael Ferguson, Auditor General of Canada”; and

That witnesses appear as panels, with no more than two (2) witnesses per panel, and that each panel appear for a minimum of one hour, and that the Committee report its findings to the House of Commons.

Malcolm Allen moved, — That the motion be amended by adding after the words “Auditor General of Canada” the following:

“• Robert Fonberg, Deputy Minister, National Defence;

• Alan Williams, former Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), National Defence;

• P. Lessard, Senior Review Board, Next Generation Fighter Capability Project, National Defence;

• Josée Touchette, Assistant Deputy Minister (Public Affairs), National Defence;

• Winslow Wheeler, Center for Defense Information, Washington, D.C.;

• Philippe Lagassé, University of Ottawa”.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Malcolm Allen and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Mathieu Ravignat — 4; NAYS: Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 7.

After debate, the question was put on the motion and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Mathieu Ravignat — 4; NAYS: Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 7.

Andrew Saxton moved, — That, in relation to the Committee’s study of Chapter 2, Replacing Canada’s Fighter Jets, of the Spring 2012 Report of the Auditor General of Canada, the Committee invite the

• Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services,

• Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence,

• Deputy Minister, Department of Industry,

• Secretary, Treasury Board of Canada

to appear on Thursday, April 26, 2012; and that they bring with them any necessary officials.

Debate arose thereon.

Gerry Byrne moved, — That the motion be amended by adding after the words “any necessary officials” the following:

“That at a later date, the following officials be invited to appear:

• Craig Morris, Deputy Director, F-35 Industrial Participation, Industry Canada;

• Johanne Provencher, Director General, Defence and Major Projects Directorate, Public Works and Government Services Canada;

• Tom Ring, Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Public Works and Government Services Canada;

• Col D.C. Burt, Director, New Generation Fighter Capability, National Defence;

• Michael J. Slack, F-35 Project Manager, Director of Continental Materiel Cooperation, National Defence;

• LGen J.P.A. Deschamps, Chief of the Air Staff, National Defence;

• Dan Ross, Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), National Defence;

That the Auditor General of Canada be invited to appear prior to departmental witnesses; and

That witnesses appear as panels, with no more than two (2) witnesses per panel, and that each panel appear for a minimum of one hour”.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Gerry Byrne and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Mathieu Ravignat — 4; NAYS: Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 7.

Debate resumed on the motion of Andrew Saxton.

Malcolm Allen moved, — That the motion be amended by adding after the words “any necessary officials;” the following: “; and that two additional two-hour meetings be scheduled with the same witnesses, in order to allow each Committee member an opportunity for a round of questioning to each of the witnesses”.

The question was put on the amendment of Malcolm Allen and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Mathieu Ravignat — 4; NAYS: Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 7.

Mathieu Ravignat moved, — That the motion be amended by adding after the words “the Committee invite” the following: “Michael Ferguson, Auditor General of Canada,”; and by adding after the words “any necessary officials” the following: “and that the Auditor General be the first witness to be heard by the Committee”.

The question was put on the amendment of Mathieu Ravignat and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Mathieu Ravignat — 4; NAYS: Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 7.

Debate resumed on the motion of Andrew Saxton.

Malcolm Allen moved, — That the motion be amended by deleting the words following “the Committee invite” and replacing them with the following : “the Auditor General of Canada to appear on Thursday, April 26, 2012; and that the

• Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services,

• Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence,

• Deputy Minister, Department of Industry,

• Secretary, Treasury Board of Canada,

be invited to appear on Tuesday, May 1, 2012;

and that they bring with them any necessary officials” .

Gerry Byrne moved, — That the amendment be amended by adding after the words “necessary officials” the following: “and that witnesses appear as panels, with no more than two (2) witnesses per panel, and that each panel appear for a minimum of one hour”.

The question was put on the subamendment of Gerry Byrne and it was negatived on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Mathieu Ravignat — 4; NAYS: Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 7.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment of Malcolm Allen and it was agreed to on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Mathieu Ravignat, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 11; NAYS: — 0.

After debate, the question was put on the motion, as amended, and it was agreed to on the following recorded division: YEAS: Malcolm Allen, Jay Aspin, Joyce Bateman, Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, Gerry Byrne, Earl Dreeshen, Bryan Hayes, Daryl Kramp, Mathieu Ravignat, Andrew Saxton, Bev Shipley — 11; NAYS: — 0.

The motion, as amended, read as follows:

That, in relation to the Committee’s study of Chapter 2, Replacing Canada’s Fighter Jets, of the Spring 2012 Report of the Auditor General of Canada, the Committee invite the Auditor General of Canada to appear on Thursday, April 26, 2012 and that the

• Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services,

• Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence,

• Deputy Minister, Department of Industry,

• Secretary, Treasury Board of Canada

be invited to appear on Tuesday, May 1, 2012; and that they bring with them any necessary officials.

Andrew Saxton moved, — That the Committee do now adjourn.

The question was put on the motion and it was agreed to, by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 4.

At 10:45 a.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.