LANG Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, February 19, 2003

¹

1540

The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.))

Mr. Douglas Norris (Director General, Census and Demographic Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada)

Ms. Louise Marmen (Chief, Demography and Linguistic Characteristics (Census), Statistics Canada)

¹

1545

¹

1550

¹

1555

The Chair

Ms. Jane Badets (Chief, Immigration and Ethnoculture, Statistics Canada)

º

1600

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ)

º

1605

Ms. Louise Marmen

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Mme Louise Marmen

º

1610

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Ms. Jane Badets

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

Ms. Jane Badets

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

º

1615

The Chair

º

1620

Ms. Louise Marmen

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Louise Marmen

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.)

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

º

1625

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Jane Badets

The Chair

Ms. Jane Badets

The Chair

Ms. Jane Badets

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

Mr. Douglas Norris

The Chair

Mr. Douglas Norris

The Chair

Mr. Douglas Norris

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1630

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Ms. Louise Marmen

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Ms. Louise Marmen

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Ms. Louise Marmen

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Ms. Louise Marmen

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Ms. Louise Marmen

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

º

1635

Ms. Jane Badets

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Ms. Jane Badets

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Ms. Jane Badets

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Ms. Jane Badets

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

The Chair

Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.)

Ms. Jane Badets

Mr. John Bryden

Ms. Louise Marmen

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1640

Mr. John Bryden

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

º

1645

Mr. Douglas Norris

Mr. Eugène Bellemare

Mr. Douglas Norris

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

º

1650

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Ms. Louise Marmen

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

Mrs. Louise Marmen

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral

The Chair

Mr. Douglas Norris

The Chair

Mr. Douglas Norris

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

Ms. Louise Marmen

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

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NUMBER 011

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Wednesday, February 19, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[Translation]

    The Chair (Mr. Mauril Bélanger (Ottawa—Vanier, Lib.)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

    Our witnesses today are from Statistics Canada. Mr. Norris, Ms. Marmen and Ms. Badets will be making a presentation on official language minority communities, particularly as regards the 2001 census. Our meeting today is part of our study of the immigration policy and related practices. We want to make sure that the immigration policy does not run counter to respect for Canada's linguistic duality and its official language minority communities.

    I can confirm for committee members that on Monday, the 24th, the Minister of Immigration will be appearing, and that on the 26th, we will be hearing from members of the advisory committee for Canada's francophone communities, which is part of the Department of Immigration. Its official name is Citizenship and Immigration Canada—Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee.

    We would ask you to take 10 to 15 minutes to make your opening remarks. If you go much over that, we will interrupt you. After that, committee members will ask you questions until they run out of them, or until 5:30 p.m., at the latest.

    If you are starting, Mr. Norris, I will now turn the floor over to you.

    Mr. Douglas Norris (Director General, Census and Demographic Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    We are very pleased to be here today to give you an overview of the results of the 2001 census. In Canada, the census is very rich as regards language matters. There are four questions on language in the census. In 2001, we had a new question on language use at work, as well as a better question, in my view, on the language spoken at home.

[English]

    We released the information from language data on the census in December and just the week before last released information on the use of language at work. So we're here today to present you with a brief overview of the initial analysis we've done. We still have more data to put out in the coming months, and we'll be looking at the matter in much more detail, but we'll present you with the first results we saw in the data.

    With me today are Louise Marmen, the chief of the language section, and Jane Badets, the chief of the immigration section. They're going to split the presentation, using the information we provided to members, and then we'll be happy to answer questions.

    Louise.

[Translation]

    Ms. Louise Marmen (Chief, Demography and Linguistic Characteristics (Census), Statistics Canada): Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank the committee for giving us an opportunity to tell you about our new data.

    More specifically, I am going to be speaking to you about the anglophone and francophone minority communities in this country—that is anglophones in Quebec and francophones outside Quebec. My approach in this presentation is based particularly on the context in which these official language minority communities are developing—namely one in which immigration is the main factor responsible for population growth in Canada.

    As we saw in the 2001 census, the number and the relative share of people with a mother tongue other than English or French is increasing in Canada. Some 5.3 million Canadians reported a mother tongue other than English or French in the 2001 Census data, and they accounted for 18% of the Canadian population.

    Given this context, it may become necessary to change the definition of official language minority communities. The census data allow us to measure the number of official language minority people in three different ways.

    First, we can determine the size of the communities by using the mother tongue data—that is the first language learned at home in childhood and still understood by the respondent at the time of the census. Using these data, the population of Canada may be broken down into three major language groups: francophones, those whose mother tongue is French; anglophones, those whose mother tongue is English; and allophones, who are all individuals whose mother tongue is a language other than French or English.

    We can also use the statistics based on home language, that is the language spoken most often at home by the respondent at the time of the census. Using these statistics, the population of Canada can once again be broken down into three groups: those who speak English at home, those who speak French at home; and those who speak a language other than French or English at home.

    Finally, the census data enable us to use another measurement, namely, the first official language spoken, which is the official language currently spoken which, in most cases, was learned first—for example, French in the case of francophones, or English in the case of anglophones. This is a rather more inclusive way of measuring the size of the community, because we can put the allophones—those whose mother tongue is a language other than French or English—in with the population group whose official language they speak. In this case, the population of Canada is subdivided into four main groups: those whose first official language spoken is French; those for whom it is English; those who speak both, that is either French or English; and those whose first official language spoken is neither French nor English because they have not yet had an opportunity to learn either of Canada's official languages.

    On page 6, we have an overview of the English-language minority in Quebec, which is defined using the three major criteria I just described. If we look at the bars for MT, or mother tongue, we see that the English mother tongue minority in Quebec has become smaller in each census from 1971 to 2001.

    If we look at the estimate for home language, there too, we see a drop in the numbers. However, these numbers are greater than those for mother tongue English, because English does manage to attract members from other language groups in Quebec.

    The last set of bars, which represents the first official language spoken, shows an increase in the numbers over time. In this case, as I was saying, the estimate includes individuals whose mother tongue is a language other than French or English. For example, we see that in 2001, 40% of the people whose mother tongue is a language other than French or English were part of the group whose first official language spoken was English.

    On the next page, we look at the same criteria, but this time for the French-language minority outside of Quebec. As we see, when we use mother tongue, the size of the community is seen to increase gradually between 1971 and 2001. In the case of the home language, we see a drop, with the exception of 1981 in the percentage of individuals whose home language is French. In this case, we see that the estimate is lower than for mother tongue, because a certain percentage of francophones speak English more often at home.

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    With respect to the last criterion, the first official language spoken, we see an increase in the numbers over time, but this estimate is quite comparable to the estimate for French mother tongue, because in the case of the francophone group, there are few allophones who report French as the first official language spoken. In 2001, there were approximately 10% of allophones in this estimate.

    Let us look now at the factors to be considered regarding the English-language minority in Quebec. In the 2001 census in Quebec, 628,000 people reported English as their mother tongue. The significant factors for this group, as for francophones, are as follows: the low fertility of women and the low percentage of children in English-French or English-other couples who have English as their mother tongue. Here too, we see that there is a higher percentage of anglophones with a spouse whose mother tongue is a language other than English than there was in the past. For example, in 2001, 44% of the children of English-French couples had English as their mother tongue, compared to 51% in 1971.

    On page 9, we see another very important factor for the anglophone community in Quebec, namely, moves to other provinces and also the arrival of immigrants from outside Canada. The first set of bars shows that as regards interprovincial migration, the net loss of anglophones from Quebec to other provinces has continued to increase in each census. The second set of bars shows recently arrived immigrants, those who came to this country in the last five years. We see that there has been a drop in the number of immigrants from other countries whose mother tongue is English.

    For example, between 1996 and 2001, there were 7,800 recent immigrants whose mother tongue was English. This is only 13% of the anglophone population of Quebec.

    Page 10 refers to the French-language minority outside of Quebec. Outside of Quebec, three quarters of francophones live in New Brunswick and Ontario, and in these two provinces, they are highly concentrated in some regions. In New Brunswick, they are highly concentrated in the northern and eastern regions, while in Ontario, they are located mainly in the northeast and southeast parts of the province.

    On page 11, for your information, there is a chart showing the francophone population in each province outside Quebec—that is all those who reported French as their mother tongue in the 2001 census.

    Page 12 talks about the factors to be considered regarding the French-language minority outside of Quebec. Once again, the low fertility of women is a factor. When we look at the age distribution within the population, we see that the percentage of the population under age five is dropping from one census to the next. We have seen that more parents pass on French to their children, but also that in the case of francophone parents with an anglophone or allophone spouse, the percentage is quite low.

    For example, in 2001, 22% of children in French-English families had French as their mother tongue compared to 10% in 1971. The francophone population outside Quebec, in each of the provinces, is an aging population. The percentage of people in the 65 and over group is very high. For example, in Saskatchewan, approximately 30% of the francophone population is 65 and over.

    The next page shows the interprovincial migration and international migration of francophones. Interprovincial migration, or moves by francophones from one province to another, from Quebec to other provinces, is very much linked to the economic situation. At certain times, we see that there were losses among francophones; they moved to Quebec. Between 1996 and 2001, there were gains in the other provinces, mainly Ontario and Alberta. These are francophones who had been living in Quebec five years earlier.

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    With respect to recent immigrants, more and more new arrivals whose mother tongue is French are settling in provinces outside Quebec, mainly in Ontario. Between 1996 and 2001, 7,500 new francophone immigrants joined the French-speaking population outside Quebec. However, they only represent 5% of the total number of francophones living in all of the provinces.

    We will now turn to another subject of interest to the francophone population outside Quebec, namely, the language spoken at home. As we could see, in each of the provinces, with the exception of New Brunswick, a large number of francophones speak English most often in the home, and in most provinces, this number is increasing, as was the case between 1996 and 2001.

    However, as Mr. Norris has said, during the 2001 census we were able to add another item relating to the language spoken at home. Besides having information on the language that is used most often at home, we were able to gain information relating to the other languages that were also spoken regularly. Thanks to these statistics, we can determine that in each of the provinces, some francophones who spoke English more often at home nevertheless stated that they also spoke French on a regular basis, whereas, in the past, in cases such as those, it was assumed that the French language had been abandoned because we only had a picture of the language that was used most often. With this new information, we see that in New Brunswick, for example, almost 50% of those respondents make regular use of the French language. In Ontario, about two francophones out of five have stated that they speak French regularly at home.

    In the 2001 census there was a question on the language that was used most often at work. With this new information we were able to determine that among the 566,000 francophone workers outside Quebec who responded that they do not speak French at home, 30% stated that they do speak French at work. This gives us a better idea of the use of French within one's private life, at home, as well as in one's public life, at work.

    Finally, among other factors that must be taken into account when we examine francophone minorities outside Quebec, because the situation is different for each minority according to the province in which they live, we see that the number of French speakers among those who do not report that language as their mother tongue, is increasing outside Quebec. This represents an advantage for the francophone group. First, when a francophone has an anglophone spouse, if the anglophone is bilingual, there is a greater likelihood that French will be spoken in the home. Second, within French-English couples, since both spouses are able to communicate in French, there is a greater propensity to pass the French language on to the children.

    There is one other factor of importance to the francophone community, that is, enrolment in French schools by young people whose mother tongue is not French. These English-speaking children born of a couple where one parent is an anglophone and the other is a francophone are entitled to attend school in French. In some provinces, if we compare young francophones to the number of students enrolled in French schools, we see that the enrolment is higher than the actual number of francophone children.

    That is our picture of the two communities. Ms. Badets now has a few things to say.

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    The Chair: Ms. Badets.

[English]

    Ms. Jane Badets (Chief, Immigration and Ethnoculture, Statistics Canada): Good afternoon. I'm going to present information on immigration and official languages, looking at some recent immigration trends, the linguistic profile of immigrants coming to Canada, and how that's changed over time.

    I'll start with an overview of immigration trends we've observed, the numbers of immigrants coming, where they settle, and their origins. On page 19 it shows the annual number of immigrants admitted to Canada each year from 1901 to 2001. Canada has welcomed more than 13 million immigrants since 1901; 2.2 million came between 1991 and 2000, and that is the most of any decade. The only other time it was comparably high was at the beginning of the century, when we had a fair number of immigrants coming in.

    Page 20 deals with where immigrants settle, and this is by province, looking at the 1981, 1991, and 2001 censuses and where immigrants coming in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s have settled. What we observe is that an increasing proportion of immigrants to Canada are settling in three provinces, Ontario, B.C., and Quebec. In fact, 89% of those who came in the 1990s settled in these three provinces, compared to 81% of those who came in the 1970s. To put that into perspective, where nine in ten of those who came in the 1990s went to these three provinces, 75% of the total population of Canada were in these provinces. As you can see from this graph, Ontario is taking more than half of immigrants, 50% of those who came in the 1970s up to 56% of those who came in the 1990s. B.C. is second, with 17% in the 1970s up to 20% in the 1990s. Quebec is at about the same proportion through those different waves of immigrants. To the far right you can see the decrease of immigrants going to provinces or territories other than the three largest ones.

    The other major trend we've observed in the last 40 or 50 years, as probably most know, is in the changing origins of immigrants to Canada. This is what this graph really shows. Between 1991 and 2001 about 60% of immigrants were from Asian countries, such as the People's Republic of China, India, Philippines, Hong Kong, Sri Lanka. That's up from, for example, those who came before 1961, of whom just 3% were from Asian countries. In contrast, you see that before 1961--in the light blue--those coming from European countries were about 90%, and that's declined to about 20% of those who have come more recently. As well, we see the immigrant population becoming more diverse in recent years, immigrants coming from other parts of the world, such as Africa, the Caribbean, and Central and South America.

    The next shows the mother tongue of the same three waves of immigrants. What we observe from this is that an increasing proportion of new immigrants to Canada are what we call allophones, that is, their mother tongue is neither English nor French. You can see that 49% of those who came in the 1970s had a mother tongue other than English or French, and that increased to 78% of those who came more recently. That just reflects what I showed in the previous slide, the changing origins of immigrants, the diversity of immigrants.

    On page 23, just looking at this for Quebec, you see again the trend is somewhat similar, an increasing proportion of new immigrants settling in Quebec who are allophone, 47% of those who came in the 1970s up to 71% of those who came in the 1990s. Of course, the sources of immigration to Quebec are slightly different, but again, this reflects a similar trend to that we saw for Canada. With those immigrants coming with English as a mother tongue, we see a decrease from 21% of those who came in the 1970s to 7% of those who came in the 1990s. There is a similar trend for those with French as a mother tongue, 29% of those who came in the 1970s versus 21% of those who came in the 1990s.

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    The next series of information we're presenting deals with the knowledge of official languages and how immigrants acquire it over time. This is for Quebec. We see a growing proportion of new immigrants settling in Quebec report a knowledge of both official languages, English and French, about 35% of those who came in the 1970s up to 43% of those who came in the 1990s. Those who reported they had a knowledge of English show a slight decline, from 24% of those who came in the 1970s to 20% of those who came in the 1990s. French-only show a similar pattern.

    On page 25 we looked at what immigrants do after the first 10 years in Canada. What do they do over the longer term in their knowledge of official languages? We've just looked here for Quebec with the 1970s immigrants. What we see is that immigrants to Quebec gain an increasing knowledge of both official languages, whether of English or of French, which I have shown in both of these graphs.

    To turn to immigrants going to areas outside Quebec and their knowledge of official languages, most report a knowledge of English only. That really hasn't changed a lot, whether it's immigrants who came in the 1970s or immigrants who came in the 1990s, around 84%.

    Finally, looking again outside Quebec, in particular with the immigrants who have come more recently, in the 1990s, and where they settled, we see that New Brunswick had the highest proportion of new immigrants with knowledge of French, 26%. We've also given the number just to put it in perspective; it is 1,155. In contrast, when you look at Ontario, with more than half of all immigrants who came in the 1990s, 6.5% had knowledge of French; the number was about 67,000.

    Thank you.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Ms. Dalphond-Guiral, you have seven minutes.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Ms. Marmen, on page 8 of your brief, you said that the low fertility rate of women was a factor to be taken into account for the English-language minority in Quebec. Something came to mind. It seems to me that for some time now, English-speaking women had smaller families compared to francophone women. So the low fertility rate had a lesser effect on the anglophone population than on the francophone one.

    In my day, anglophones had no children. We wondered how they managed to do that. We know that now.

    However, between 1971 and 2001, within a 30-year span, there has been an interesting development in the use of English at home.

    I wondered whether or not this change had something to do—and I think that would be the case—with Bill 101. Do you not think that the impact of this law and all of the announcements surrounding it have caused the French speaker in a mixed language couple to speak more French? A little knowledge goes a long way.

    Would you like to answer that first question?

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    Ms. Louise Marmen: With respect to the fertility rate of English-speaking women, I believe you are correct. The drop in the fertility of English-speaking women was less predominant than the same phenomenon among francophone women. Fifty or sixty years ago, each woman had an average of three or four children, while the number was lower amongst anglophones. So the drop was not as great amongst the English-speaking population. The main factor affecting anglophones in Quebec relates to interprovincial migration. The drop in numbers can be mainly attributed to that phenomenon.

    With respect to teaching English as a mother tongue to one's children, we see that there has been an increase among anglophones. That number had dropped somewhat, and what is happening there is similar to what is being experienced by francophones outside Quebec, namely, an increase in exogamy, meaning the choice of a spouse with a different mother tongue, which in this case would be French. Amongst the anglophones in Quebec, in 2001, 30% of couples had a spouse whose mother tongue was French. While it is true that children are being taught to speak French more frequently than was the case in the past, nevertheless, English is still the language that is spoken most often amongst couples at home. About 10% of anglophones within a couple speak French at home.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: On page 12, amongst the factors to consider for the French-language minority outside Quebec, you allude to the drop in fertility of women. That must have had something to do with it. You also say that more parents are passing French on to their children. The elements are the same, over a 30-year period. We can see an increase in the use of French amongst French-English couples.

    I believe that, once again, Quebec's Bill 101 is responsible. Don't you think this might have spurred people to act? Do you not think that those whose mother tongue is French suddenly realized that they had to make use of the language if they wanted it to do more than simply survive? In other words, Quebec's legislation had an affect outside the province.

    Mme Louise Marmen: Using statistics, I was able to demonstrate that among anglophones who had had the opportunity of taking French immersion or French as a second language courses and who then became bilingual—and the numbers have increased over time—having an anglophone spouse who was bilingual meant that French would be passed on amongst French-English couples. This is an important, observable factor within the French-English couples that we studied. The trend is already quite strong in New Brunswick. In some parts of Ontario, we could see that when an anglophone spouse is bilingual, there is a greater likelihood that the children will learn to speak French as a first language or at least as a second language.

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    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Let's move on to page 21. As a member of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, I have heard a great deal about immigration, from French-speaking countries in particular, and more recently following the publication of the Report of the Commissioner of Official Languages.

    In the chart on page 21, we see that Asia and the Middle East represent the lion's share in terms of percentage of new arrivals to Canada and that very few are from Africa. Its share is indeed larger than it was, but the total is still very low. We know that French is spoken in the Middle East. It would have been interesting to have an idea of the percentage of French-speaking immigrants from the Middle East.

[English]

    Ms. Jane Badets: I don't have that to hand, but you're right, there are immigrants coming from northern Africa, for example, who speak French, and that's certainly part of the immigration to Quebec as well.

[Translation]

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Could you give us an idea of what percentage they would represent? It seems to me that 85% or 90% of those coming from Asia and the Middle East... We know that there are large pools in India and China, where they either speak English, or neither one of the two languages. It might be interesting to know that, since we will be examining these pools. People might arrive here with a knowledge of French, but if they settle elsewhere in Canada, for example, it may be that 25 years later, the use of French as a language has increased, but that might not necessarily be the case. We can cross our fingers, but as far as I am concerned, it is not a sure thing. We should try to break those numbers down a little further. The same applies to Africa. There is French Africa and English Africa. How do you account for that? People from Africa usually speak one of Canada's two official languages.

    Don't tell me that you are cutting me off already! This is my first time here.

    The Chair: You will have enough time to prepare for a second round.

[English]

    Ms. Badets, if you send information, please send it to our clerk, who will make sure every member gets it.

    Ms. Jane Badets: Yes, we can send that.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Mr. Bellemare.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I will be quick. I think that Ms. Dalphond-Guiral made a lot of sense, but we are running out of time.

    An authority in spoken languages explained to me that in a mixed group where English, French and Chinese are spoken, English would tend to dominate because it is easier. If a person happens to be in a mixed group at work, in their family or at home, then the tendency is to use English.

    When statistics are compiled, then the figures may turn out to be a little or even quite inaccurate in response to the question about what language is spoken at home, for example. Or, what is the language spoken at school or at work? At home, if the father or the mother filling out the questionnaire is English-speaking—let's say for example that the father is French-speaking and the children speak English and French— the person answering the question could easily say that English predominates at home. The way in which the question is asked may lead people to give this answer.

    At our last meeting, I saw your questionnaire and I was quite taken aback. I would have liked to have another look at this part of the questionnaire. I didn't photocopy it, I must say that it is not particularly exciting, but it would be quite useful for us today to have the section dealing with languages.

    The reason I'm making these remarks relates to the CRTC. When it grants a radio or television licence, the decision is based on the language spoken in a given market. The language designated for Ottawa is English and not the two official languages. In Gatineau, it is French.

    In the case of the CPAC channel, which broadcasts the proceedings of Parliament, people who live in Ottawa have no choice but to follow the proceedings in English. On the other hand, anglophones who live in Aylmer have to listen to CPAC in French. The National Capital Region is bilingual and is supposed to promote bilingualism.

    Let us assume I am a carpenter. In my workshop there are 15 of us, 3 francophones and 12 anglophones. If someone asks what language we speak at work, we will answer that it is English. That would also be the response of Statistics Canada. The three workers who are in the habit of speaking French among themselves would amount to zero in your statistics.

    In the playground of a French-language school where there are children of various ethnic backgrounds, some of whom are English-speaking and others who are from unilingual English-speaking families—that often occurs in my constituency—when the parents have decided to have their children educated in French, if you listen to what is being said in the playground, you will often hear English. Does that mean that the school should be designated as an English school? According to the CRTC, that would be the case. Statistics Canada, if faced with this situation, would say that English is the language heard and that it is therefore an English school.

    I'm worried about the way you compile your statistics because they have significant repercussions on the decisions taken by other Canadian agencies, particularly with respect to services provided, both to anglophones and bilingual francophones in the Ottawa region, among others.

    In my opinion, the problem of the CRTC, in the case of CPAC, is probably caused by Statistics Canada and the way in which statistics are prepared and later used by CRTC. That is a significant part of the problem.

    The second element of the problem is the CRTC's failure to consider that this is the capital of Canada. We talk about linguistic duality and two official languages. There are anglophones who understand French and who also make use of that language. I have a colleague who is a former journalist with the Globe and Mail; he has written books and he speaks good French. In addition to speaking French well, he is also a francophile which, in my view, is more important than being a francophone. You have to be a francophile, otherwise it won't work. It's just a veneer.

    I'd be interested in knowing what you can do to improve this situation when you conduct your surveys and compile statistics—I'm thinking of Mr. Bellemare here— on the language spoken at home, at school, and at work, when it is not necessarily 100% English or French.

    I have several other questions but I'm afraid that I will meet the same fate as Madeleine. How much time do I have left?

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    The Chair: You have 22 seconds to answer. No, no, go ahead. We'll have another round.

º  (1620)  

    Ms. Louise Marmen: I'll attempt to sum up.

    First of all, we'll send you a copy of the wording of the questions in the census. I think that our new 2001 question will respond to your concerns.

    First of all, with respect to the question on the language spoken at home, we now ask people which language is the most often spoken at home. In a second question, we ask whether the person makes regular use of other languages at home. So, it would not be the 100 per cent you refer to. Our statistics do in fact show that a person who speaks English most of the time at home may also indicate that he or she uses French. So I think that this takes into account the Canadian reality, namely that both English and French may be in use.

    We have exactly the same type of wording for the questions on the language of work. We ask which language is used most often at work and also whether the person makes regular use of other languages. This enables the respondent to give us some background about the language situation as it relates to his or her job.

    You are right when you say that sometimes we look at a question and ask whether it is the right question. Before each census, before we include questions such as this, we conduct quality tests. We try out our questionnaires with people. We sit down with them and we have them fill out the questionnaire. We then review each of the questions and ask them how they interpret it. We do this with anglophones, francophones and groups of immigrants. We want to be sure that the same question is properly understood by different groups within the population of Canada. I can tell you that when people answer, they are able to make a distinction when they say that they make most frequent use of a particular language but they also use the other language fairly frequently.

    In my opinion, these two new questions will enable us to get a fairly good measurement of the situation.

    There is also the question relating to the knowledge of official languages, the purpose of which is to know whether the person is able to conduct a conversation in French and in English. Once again each Canadian has the possibility of indicating his knowledge of the two official languages.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Is that question included in the questionnaire?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Yes, I'll send it to you.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Are people asked whether they are able to conduct a conversation in such and such a language?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Yes, we ask whether the person is able to hold a conversation in French or in English. The possible answers are French only, English only; French and English; neither French nor English.

    Our concern was rather similar to yours. We are interested in knowing whether there is any continuity depending on whether it is the man or the woman of the household who answers. We cannot always be sure that in the household the same person answers our questionnaire each time. In looking at the historical evolution of the results, we note that there does not seem to be any bias towards a particular member of the household answering our questions from one census to the other.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Are there any other colleagues who would like to ask questions?

    Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): I'll pass, this time.

    The Chair: I would like a clarification.

    It concerns pages 14, 15 and 16; I want to be sure that I've understood correctly.

    The statistics on page 15 deal basically with francophones who speak English most often at home, for example in Ontario. The 43% in Ontario reflects the previous page. I'll take the example of New Brunswick. It will be easier because the figures are different.

    On page 15, you say that in New Brunswick, 48% of these people also speak French regularly. Is that correct? Is it 48% of 10%?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: It is 48% of those who speak English most of the time.

    The Chair: In other words, it's 48% of the figure on the previous page, isn't it?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Yes.

º  (1625)  

    The Chair: How does page 16 relate to the two previous pages?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: It is a matter of presenting the information. Up until now, in the census there has been information on the family sphere, on what takes place within families. If the person, for example, does not indicate that he uses French most of the time at home and does not indicate that he speaks it on a regular basis, does this mean that the person does not use his language at all? So, we have attempted to find out what proportion of workers who did not indicate that they made use of French at home, at least regularly, make use of this language at work.

    The Chair: Among this 25% are there also people who belong to the 10% in New Brunswick?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Yes, certainly. I have taken the composite figures so as not to provide too much information.

[English]

    The Chair: I would like to know if you can determine the origins of francophone immigrants and of anglophone immigrants, and even further, if it's possible to determine the origin of francophone immigrants by province. Can we find out where the 66,000 who came into Ontario were from?

    Ms. Jane Badets: Yes we can, and we can provide that information.

    The Chair: I suspect that's something the government might want to use in elaborating strategy.

    I want to make sure I understand page 25. We're dealing strictly with the 1970s immigrants, so that in 1981 34.6% of the 1970s immigrants had learned French and English.

    Ms. Jane Badets: Yes, they had a knowledge of it.

    The Chair: And in 1991, from the same group, the 1970s immigrants, it had moved to 51% and 55%.

    Ms. Jane Badets: That's correct.

    The Chair: And the other one is for

[Translation]

knowledge of French.

[English]

I just wanted to make sure I was clear on what was presented.

[Translation]

    Some time ago I watched a television program on TFO about the history of l'Ordre de Jacques Cartier, known as la Patente. I can tell you we've come a long way since then because one of the big victories of la Patente or the Ordre de Jacques Cartier, in the 1950s, was to obtain a few small questions in the census on this matter of languages. So we have made progress.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: But we do need groups like that.

    The Chair: Yes, and perhaps it isn't only Bill 101. There is also the 1968 Official Languages Act and so forth. It may be that paradoxically, it did have an effect.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: But it didn't have much of an effect in 1971.

    The Chair: I have one last question. Statistics Canada—by the way, please offer our congratulations to the Chief Statistician, Mr. Fellegi, who received one of the first leadership awards from Ms. Adam—often provides services to clients, that is departments and agencies. I'm not referring to the census. Is that correct?

[English]

    Mr. Douglas Norris: Yes.

[Translation]

    The Chair: For example, do you carry out work for Citizenship and Immigration Canada? Do you work on language matters for this department?

    Mr. Douglas Norris: We have done tables for this department, I think that's all. We haven't done any research on the matter, have we, Jane? But we did do tables and it is probably people in the Department of Citizenship and Immigration who did the research, but not necessarily on data from 2001, because it is too recent.

    The Chair: I see. Justice Canada, for example, may have a responsibility in matters of official languages. In addition to the census, does the department also have studies undertaken regularly by Statistics Canada?

    Mr. Douglas Norris: In the case of the Department of Immigration, I don't think we have any surveys relating to language, but it is possible.

º  (1630)  

    The Chair: Have some departments, such as Human Resources Development or Health Canada, asked you for such a survey? Do some of them rely on your knowledge and expertise in order to develop their policies?

    I would like to come back to section 41 of the Official Languages Act. All departments have a responsibility in this respect. Do some turn to Statistics Canada's expertise in drafting their policies?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: We cooperate regularly with the Department of Canadian Heritage in the preparing of certain statistics. We have also been involved in drafting the questionnaire for the new Adult Literacy and Life Skills Survey. I believe this survey is funded to a large extent by Human Resources Development Canada. As part of this survey, we will have an oversampling of francophones outside Quebec and anglophones in Quebec.

    At the time of the last survey, we carried out a study to analyze the situation of francophones in New Brunswick and Ontario, because these two provinces had paid for the oversampling. This time, I think the results will be available in 2003.

    In addition, we will also be doing another analysis. I think that Human Resources Development will be using the results of this survey and our study for policy purposes, because the department has a secretariat for literacy and the official language minority communities.

    The Chair: Thank you. I must now turn the floor over to Ms. Dalphond-Guiral, because my time is up.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: There is a table on page 14 which shows that a significant percentage of francophones outside Quebec speak English most often at home. Do the questions you ask make it possible to determine whether we are heading toward what could be termed—with a few reservations—a process of assimilation favouring English?

    Can you measure whether the assimilation rate of francophone immigrants outside Quebec is higher than the one for francophones who left Quebec?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Among allophone immigrants, those whose mother tongue is a language other than French or English, we have noticed quite a high retention rate of the mother tongue. Clearly, the longer these people stay in the country, the greater the likelihood that they will pick up one of the official languages. In spite of everything, if we look at all of the allophones outside Quebec—and I am speaking here from memory—we see that 40% of them speak their mother tongue most often at home.

    I have had a quick look at the statistics on allophones outside Quebec, and I noticed that very few of them spoke French at home. Only 0.2%  of them reported speaking French at home. That is very low.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: And what about francophone immigrants?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: I did not check specifically for immigrants.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: If you are looking for something to do, you could...

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Yes.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: That could be quite interesting. If you find that the process of assimilation into English is faster among people who already have a good knowledge of French when they arrive in Canada, we might question the appropriateness of the vision of the Commissioner of Official Languages. She maintains that immigrants will save the francophone community.

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Are you interested in francophone immigrants?

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Of course, because it would be significant if they have a greater tendency to use English.

    Ms. Louise Marmen: There is no doubt about that. I do not have the exact figures, but when I looked at the statistics quickly, I noticed that a high percentage of francophone immigrants—I believe it was half—who arrived in Ontario went to Toronto. If I remember correctly, the transfer rate toward English is 60% for francophones living in Toronto. I could try to make a comparison.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: I'm sure that would be interesting. Am I allowed another question?

    The Chair: In other words, you want table 25, but for the other provinces, not Quebec.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: That is correct, for francophone immigrants who chose to go and live elsewhere in Canada.

    The Chair: Table 25, but for provinces other than Quebec.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Most of what you said did not surprise me, but one thing did surprise me a great deal. Ms. Badets, table 23 shows that a very high percentage of new immigrants to Quebec are allophones. We know that for a number of years now, Quebec has been responsible for selecting independent immigrants. I imagine that this very high percentage is linked directly to the family reunification process or to the refugee class. Am I wrong, or is that the explanation? I must confess that I was surprised. If the figure had been 50%, I would have understood, but 71% seems very high to me.

º  (1635)  

[English]

    Ms. Jane Badets: It could be because of who's being chosen to go to Quebec and their background. We would have to look at that. I don't have how they're coming in, how they're being selected in respect of class, so that would have to be looked at. We don't have that in the census.

[Translation]

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Thank you.

    The Chair: Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I would like a clarification. Ms. Badets, I am trying to understand page 27, but I am having difficulty. What is this number we see in the middle: Ontario, 66,720? I'm sure it is quite simple, but I just do not see what it refers to.

[English]

    Ms. Jane Badets: That's the number of immigrants who came in the 1990s to Ontario and had some knowledge of French.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Okay, but in New Brunswick, for instance, you say that there are one thousand--

    Ms. Jane Badets: Yes, 1,155 who settled there.

[Translation]

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: That amounts to 26%.

    Ms. Jane Badets: That is correct. That amounts to 26% of all the immigrants to New Brunswick in 1991.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Thank you very much.

    The Chair: Mr. Bryden.

    Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.): I notice in the chart on page 24 that the total number of people who spoke English only, who spoke both English and French and who spoke neither French nor English increased from the 1980s to the 1990s, while the percentage of immigrants who spoke French only dropped during the same period of time. I am wondering whether this is an example of a fundamental change in the demographic makeup of Quebec. There are many immigrants who do not speak French or who speak French and English, or neither of the two languages. I think that the future of French in Quebec is a serious matter. Do you have a comment on this?

[English]

    Ms. Jane Badets: This is knowledge of official languages; this is what they're reporting on the census, immigrants who've come in every ten years. I guess you were talking about the French-only. Is that it?

    Mr. John Bryden: I'm just struck by the fact that French-only is diminishing, and those with other than French only are increasing significantly, by 15 percentage points or more than that. That's quite a dramatic change.

[Translation]

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Yes. I could mention that in the case of Quebec, we looked more specifically at the situation of immigrant workers. The data showed that among immigrants who arrived since 1986, the percentage who spoke French most of the time at work dropped, while the percentage of those who spoke English most of the time increased. You are right: we have noted a change in the linguistic make-up of the population, at least among allophone immigrant workers. There are far more now than there used to be from countries where the language spoken is Russian, Urdu, Punjabi or Tagalog. All these groups come to Quebec with a knowledge of English only. I think that between 1981 and 1986, they may have accounted for 14% of all allophone immigrant workers, while for the period from 1996 to 2001, they accounted for 30% to 40% of this group. So there has been a strong increase.

    However, I would like to mention that we did an exercise. We looked at the immigrants who arrived between 1960 and 1975, for example. I do not remember exactly what percentage of these immigrants did not know English at the time of the 1981 census. However, when we look at the same cohort of immigrants 10 or 20 years later, we notice that the percentage of those who spoke English only has dropped. We might expect that as they stay in Quebec longer, they will learn the other language, because the percentage of bilinguals is very high among allophone immigrants.

º  (1640)  

    Mr. John Bryden: Thank you.

    The Chair: Mr. Bellemare.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    In my riding, about 60% of people are anglophone and 30% are francophone. The third-largest group speak Chinese, and the fourth Arabic. Many people in my area are surprised when they see these figures.

    There are many mixed marriages in my riding. As I said, 30% of the population is francophone. Has Statistics Canada looked at the issue of mixed marriages and noticed the figure of 30%? Does Statistics Canada realize that this is not a ghetto? If you look at the north of Orleans, for instance, there are only francophones. Do you take the fact that there are many mixed marriages into account?

    My second question is about immersion programs. Do you have any statistics on the trends as regards learning French in immersion programs in my riding, for example? I'm sure you have looked at this for the country as a whole. Have these programs had an upward or downward impact on language issues, specifically French, in my case?

    In the case of immigration, are we seeing roughly the same phenomenon as in the southern United States, where the Spanish have taken revenge and have won back the country they lost three centuries ago? Florida, Texas and California are becoming increasingly Spanish. Despite the efforts made by Anglo-Americans, the cities and towns are becoming more and more Spanish. The language spoken is Spanish. The language of work is Spanish. The language spoken in community centres and medical centres is Spanish. This phenomenon is occurring in the United States.

    For French Canadians, there is no question of winning back their country. With our immigration policy, there are so many allophones, that some day, in 50, 100 or 500 years, we may be a Chinese country, and the official languages will be part of our history, something people talk about at parties. Could this happen?

    Have you studied the trends between 1900 and 2002, and have you made any projections? If the trends continue, will the issue of the official languages some day be out of date? We are already seeing this in the Canadian west, where people wonder why we should not have Chinese or Punjabi schools, rather than French schools. We are seeing more and more of that. I am wondering what will happen to my country in 50 or 500 years.

    What do you think about that?

º  (1645)  

[English]

    Mr. Douglas Norris: I could comment on your last question, and Louise will comment on the other one.

    There are trends in the country in the origins of our migrants, as we saw. However, I think, when you look at the language use, still the overwhelming proportion of our immigrants are speaking either English or French and, as we saw in the case in Quebec, increasing. In fact, they're bilingual over time. So while they are speaking their own language as well--I can think of Chinese immigrants speaking Chinese in Vancouver--the great majority of them are still able to speak and use English at work. Yes, our country is becoming much more diversified, but we don't see in the data yet large increases in the numbers of people not able to speak English or French, and many of those who come into Canada not able to speak them do seem to be picking up knowledge of English or French fairly rapidly. But it's very difficult to project into the future the exact numbers.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare: There's a phenomenon in the southern United States whereby 50 years, 100 years from now you can see Spanish being predominant in at least three main southern states. For example, could we foresee in 50 years B.C. becoming a province where Chinese, for example, or Punjabi would be the main language, with English as a second language?

    Mr. Douglas Norris: I don't think I would want to try to project that far into the future what would happen. It's a hypothetical question and very difficult. We have no basis for giving you any kind of opinion on that.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Ms. Marmen.

    Ms. Louise Marmen: I would like to go back to the previous questions and say that mixed marriages are a phenomenon that we always analyze carefully. We know that there is a very strong correlation between the size of a given group, for example the number of francophones in a region, and the rate of exogamy or the percentage of francophones with a spouse whose mother tongue is English. So when we say that the language transfer or the percentage of francophones who use English more often at home is at such and such a level, we are always looking at the percentage of this group that lives as a couple with an anglophone spouse. We always take this factor into consideration in our analyses.

    As for your question on immersion courses, the Statistics Canada figures that we have right now on immersion or French as a second language are not finalized for that time period, namely 2001. I think that the figures still date back to 1999. We obtained the statistics from various ministries of education. We have seen a slight drop in immersion programs. However, when you study reports such as those produced by Canadian Parents for French, a parent association that advocates immersion courses and French-language instruction for their children, we note that these parents complain about a lack of teachers in the immersion schools. Is this supposed reduction caused by a lack of teachers or by the fact that anglophone parents do not feel it is so necessary to send their children to immersion schools and opt instead to have their children in a program where they learn French as a second language? I cannot answer that question. We are not sufficiently clear about these factors.

    The Chair: Thank you. At any rate, we may have some options for resolving this situation on March 12, when the Prime Minister unveils the Official Languages Action Plan.

º  (1650)  

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: How much money is in the budget?

    The Chair: The floor is yours, Ms. Dalphond-Guiral, unless other committee members have questions they would like to ask. Fine. I will now give the floor to Ms. Dalphond-Guiral, and then I will ask two or three brief questions.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Ms. Marmen, in one of your interventions, you said that the mother tongue retention rate of immigrants whose mother tongue was neither French nor English was very high outside of Quebec. Is this rate higher outside of Quebec than it is within Quebec, or are the rates comparable?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: It's higher in Quebec.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: It's higher in Quebec, right?

    Mrs. Louise Marmen: It's higher in Quebec, yes. In answering your question, I was referring to the situation outside of Quebec, but it is higher in Quebec.

    Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Okay. If that's the case... I live in a region where there is a high percentage of cultural communities, and I have a lot of friends who come from another country. The language spoken by the parents, the grand-parents and the children is very much alive, whether you're talking about Greek, Armenian or Arab. That doesn't prevent them from speaking French, but they speak their language in social settings. At work, there is no choice to be made because you have to speak the language spoken there, but socially, they choose their language. So we're not as bad as all that in Quebec, are we?

    The Chair: Does Statistics Canada make any distinction between first-generation immigrants and their children, namely, people from the second and third generations? Do the children of immigrants learn French or English more often? Do you make this distinction in your statistics?

    Mr. Douglas Norris: We haven't done it up until now, but in the 2001 census, we had a new question pertaining to the birthplace of an individual's parents. This question will enable us to do some analysis to compare the first generation and the second generation. We cannot go back any further, but we do intend to do this type of study on the second generation.

    The Chair: You can see that I did not get the full questionnaire. When can we expect to have these analyses?

    Mr. Douglas Norris: We will probably start working on this analysis during the summer, but I do not know which part of this analysis will focus on the question of language. I think that it will be later on this year. We could examine this issue for the committee.

    The Chair: I know that you are not responsible for that. Don't hesitate to tell me that you will look into the matter, etc. Is the Statistics Canada action plan for the year 2003-2004 drafted, approved and available? I saw the action plan for 2002-2003.

    Ms. Louise Marmen: No, not yet. We usually table our action plan towards the end of May or in mid-June.

    The Chair: For the fiscal year that begins on April 1?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: The document “Achievement Report for 2001-2002 and Action Plan for 2002-2003” was tabled in June 2002.

    The Chair: But that essentially expires in March 2003.

    Ms. Louise Marmen: I believe so, but usually we do an update of our achievements. Here for example we have the document “Achievements Report for 2001-2002”.

    The Chair: You tabled that report with the Department of Canadian Heritage, I believe.

    Ms. Louise Marmen: Yes, that's right.

    The Chair: Could we ask you to send us a copy?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: It would be our pleasure.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    I have one final question, which deals with health. It has been said loud and clear that health is the main concern of official language minority communities, whether they be the anglophones in Quebec or the francophones in the other Canadian provinces. Moreover, this holds true for the rest of Canadians.

    Have you had an opportunity to look at this issue in terms of statistics?

    Ms. Louise Marmen: I would say that we have not yet had an opportunity to analyze the results, but I do believe that, for the first time, the results of the new investigation into the health of Canadian communities, which is one of the largest investigations ever undertaken in the area of health, in which we examined each health region, will be available on Internet, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not absolutely certain about that, but I could get back to you on that. We will have results broken down by mother tongue for the various health problems, etc., and also according to the first official language spoken, the variable I alluded to earlier. This variable is used very often by Quebec's anglophones. So the results will be available and we will try to find time to analyze the findings. I know that this is an area of particular interest to francophones outside of Quebec.

    The Chair: Thank you for appearing today, and thank you for the documents and the information that you provided to us. It was clear. We will certainly use this information in our future recommendations. Thank you for taking the time to come here.

    On Monday, we will be meeting the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration.

    Thank you and have a good weekend.

    The meeting is adjourned.