HERI Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, May 13, 2003

¿

0910

The Chair (Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.))

¿

0925

Mr. Valentin Nikitin (Chairman, Committee on Nationalities) (Interpretation)

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0930

¿

0935

The Chair

¿

0940

Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Canadian Alliance)

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0945

The Chair

¿

0950

Ms. Liza Frulla (Verdun—Saint-Henri—Saint-Paul—Pointe Saint-Charles, Lib.)

¿

0955

Mr. Valentin Nikitin

Mr. Kaadyr-ool Bicheldey (Deputy Chairman, Committee on Nationalities) (Interpretation)

Ms. Liza Frulla

Mr. Kaadyr-ool Bicheldey (Interpretation)

Ms. Liza Frulla

Mr. Sergey Budajapov (Deputy Chairman, Committee on Nationalities) (Interpretation)

À

1000

Mr. Kaadyr-ool Bicheldey (Interpretation)

The Chair

Mr. Valentin Nikitin (Interpretation)

Ms. Liza Frulla

À

1005

Mr. Nikolay Sorokin (Deputy Chairman, Committee on Culture and Tourism) (Interpretation)

The Chair

Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.)

À

1010

À

1015

À

1020

Mr. Nikolay Sorokin (Interpretation)

Ms. Liza Frulla

Ms. Sarmite Bulte

À

1025

Ms. Liza Frulla

Ms. Sarmite Bulte

Ms. Liza Frulla

Ms. Sarmite Bulte

Ms. Liza Frulla

Mr. Valentin Nikitin (Interpretation)

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

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NUMBER 039

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Tuesday, May 13, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¿  (0910)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.)): Good morning. Our colleagues are due any time, but we won't wait any more, we'll get started.

    I first of all want to express my warmest welcome to you on behalf of our committee and to tell you how very pleased we are to be able to exchange ideas with you and to greet you in our national capital.

    I'll just explain to you how our committees work. We call this committee Canadian heritage, and it's basically the committee on culture and anything associated with heritage. It has 16 members, with one chair from the government side and two vice-chairs, one from the official opposition, Mr. Abbott, and one from the government side. There are nine members, including the chair, from the government side and seven from the opposition.

    Now I'll talk about the big issues we have been working on. I know you met with the Department of Canadian Heritage yesterday, so you know what the department we are tied up with does, and I hope you had a very fruitful meeting with them. They might have told you we just finished a two-year study on the state of broadcasting in Canada last week.

    It was a massive study, a review. The last one was done 12 years ago, the legislation was passed 10 years ago, and we are now trying to update the legislation. We looked at broadcasting and the Internet on the private side, the public side, and the community side, the whole spectrum. Our report will come out in early June.

    If you are interested, we'll send you a copy. It's going to be issued in our two official languages, English and French.

¿  (0925)  

    I know you have given us a list of the various subjects you would like to discuss, but before we get into this, I wanted to introduce my colleagues. I think you've met Mr. Jim Abbot, who represents an electoral district in British Columbia. He belongs to a party called the Canadian Alliance, which forms the official opposition. My other colleague here is Liza Frulla, who you've met; she was previously Minister of Culture in the province of Quebec and represents an electoral district in Montreal, one very close to the centre of the city of Montreal.

    I know you have given us a list of many subjects you wanted to discuss, but I would like to turn the meeting over to Mr. Nikitin, the leader of your delegation, to ask him whether there are subjects that are of more interest and how you want to conduct the meeting, by asking us about these subjects or whatever way you want to see this meeting evolve.

    Mr. Valentin Nikitin (Chairman, Committee on Nationalities) (Interpretation): Thank you.

    First of all, I would like to introduce my colleagues as well. We have a joint delegation of two committees of the State Duma, the Committee on Nationalities and the Committee on Culture and Tourism. Sergey Budajapov is the deputy chairman of the Committee on Nationalities. Mr. Kaadyr-ool Bicheldey is also a deputy chairman of the Committee on Nationalities, and he is from the Republic of Tyva. The other members here are Mr. Alexander Burulko from the Krasnodarsky area, Mr. Nagib Gimaev from the Republic of Bashkortostan, Mr. Vladimir Kazakovtsev from the Kirov area, Mr. Anatoly Nikitin from the Ryazan area, and Ms. Raushan Kanapianova, chief of staff.

    Unfortunately, Mr. Gubenko, head of the Committee on Culture and Tourism, won't be able to be here, so this committee is represented by Mr. Nikolay Sorokin, deputy chairman of the committee, from the Rostov area; Mr. Valery Kondratiev, chief of staff; and Ms. Veronika Kalganova, member of the Interparliamentary Relations Department of the State Duma.

    Dear colleagues, I think the best way to start is by discussing the television issue. This matter causes great disputes within the electorate in many areas in Russia, so it is very interesting for us. In fact, relations between the mass media, Russian society, and the different powers in Russia cause very many disputes.

¿  (0930)  

    From our point of view, we may sometimes criticize mass media and journalists too much, but on the other hand, mass media and people from the media sometimes start and initiate very big problems and disputes. Those are perhaps not very interesting or very useful for the public.

    For example, descriptions of relations between peoples within nations of the Russian Federation are sometimes given in a very bad and impolite way in the media. Sometimes the media describe this or that politician or nation from a very impolite and bad angle. This is why, especially with television, we see some things that do not exist. This is the question, this is the main problem.

    The other question is perhaps about preserving the language and culture of small nations. We know Canada is a multicultural nation, as is Russia, and this is why it will be very interesting to learn how you work in this matter.

    So we'd be very grateful if you could start from these two equations, and then maybe during our discussion we'll raise something else.

¿  (0935)  

    The Chair: What I will do is make a very short statement myself about these two points and then turn it over to my colleagues for their comments. Then we can just have an exchange.

    In regard to television here, we have a system where we have a centrepiece piece of legislation called the Broadcasting Act. What happens is that we have a regulator, which is a quasi-judicial body called the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the CRTC, and it regulates licences that are given to our broadcasters.

    We have one national broadcaster, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, that is funded by the Canadian state for both radio and TV. We have private television licences given to private corporations, which are there for a profit. There are a few very large ones in Canada that control all kinds of media, TV, radio, and printed media.

    So you have public radio and TV, private radio and TV, and then there's this third group, you might say, which is smaller. That's all the local, community, non-profit TV and radio and also specialty non-profit radio. There is, for example, VisionTV, which is all religious broadcasting; there's APTN, which is aboriginal broadcasting; and we have aboriginal broadcasting in the north of the country, in the Arctic, as well.

    The big issues we have been looking at in regard to our legislation are the continuing place of the public broadcaster, how we keep on funding it over the years, and the question of ownership. Ownership and control have to be in Canadian hands, and that's a big issue: should we open it up to foreign ownership?

    The third one is convergence of media. If a company gets all the TV, radio, and print together, do they become too powerful and control too much of the media?

    These are the three big areas among the many we've looked at.

¿  (0940)  

    At this point I would like to introduce a colleague who has just joined us, Salmite Bulte. She is a lawyer by profession, is very involved in the cultural sector, and has been parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage. She represents an electoral district in Toronto, in Ontario.

    At this point what I will do is ask my colleagues, starting with Jim Abbott, to make comments as they wish regarding our discussion, and then I will go over to the government side.

    Jim.

    Mr. Jim Abbott (Kootenay—Columbia, Canadian Alliance): Welcome to Canada. We are looking forward to having this discussion and also to our meeting this evening over dinner.

    We, as Mr. Lincoln has very accurately portrayed, are wrestling with the issue of foreign ownership of media and also the issue of cross-media ownership, that is, the connection between broadcasters, be they in radio or television, and the print media.

    We're concerned about the area of foreign ownership, and there are two different opinions in Canada. I represent one and my friends represent the other, which is fine, and it has to do with whether foreign ownership of a broadcaster or a broadcast distribution system, cable or satellite, would actually influence the content of what is seen in the homes of Canadians.

    I'd like to pose a question you could perhaps handle later. I'm just curious, if you had a giant media conglomerate—Murdoch, Fox, someone like that—who was interested in providing broadcast distribution or programming in Russia, what would be the response of the government to that? That would be of great interest to us.

    On the second issue of cross-media ownership, that goes to the question your chairman posed about what is actually seen on the television screens and what is broadcast on radio. There is a concern with cross-media ownership that if you have private owners who have a particular point of view that is a very narrow point of view, that is the way the information will be portrayed. If I understand it, that is the concern you were expressing.

    Given the fact the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is funded by the Canadian taxpayer and answers to Parliament through our heritage minister, there is a very interesting and sensitive tension in Canada as to the potential for there to be state control, which of course is something Canadians would never accept.

¿  (0945)  

    I think I could summarize it this way. Probably the vast majority of Canadians believe that the slightest indication of state influence is just not acceptable. However, it becomes a problem for politicians of all political stripes in Canada that sometimes how we are portrayed is not how we see ourselves.

    To give my colleagues time, I will just conclude with this thought. We as politicians, Russian politicians or Canadian politicians, always have to be careful that if we see an illness, the cure is not worse than the illness.

    The Chair: Before we go any further, I would like to introduce another colleague who has joined us, Alex Shepherd, who is an accountant by profession. He has represented an Ontario riding not too far from Toronto since 1993. He's a member on the government side of our Canadian heritage committee.

    At this stage I'll turn it over to my colleagues on the government side. You might hear a slightly different version from what you heard from Jim.

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    The Chair: I'll ask Liza Frulla to make a comment.

¿  (0950)  

[Translation]

    Ms. Liza Frulla (Verdun—Saint-Henri—Saint-Paul—Pointe Saint-Charles, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Good morning. I would like to welcome you to Canada in French because, as you no doubt know, Canada has two official languages, English and French. French is spoken mainly in Quebec, which is the only French-speaking jurisdiction in North America, but it is also spoken in various provinces where there is a francophone community, as is the case in New Brunswick and Manitoba. Francophones living outside of Quebec are served in their own language.

    You mentioned that you want to preserve your culture first of all, but also the different individual cultures in your country. That is a challenge everywhere, as it is in Canada. We have managed to do this because our public system is there to protect, amongst other things, our two official languages.

    That chairman spoke about a quasi judicial body called the CRTC. This body regulates our public television system, which is made up of two networks—English public television and French public television. Both networks broadcast across the country, thus providing French and English television service to all citizens. This is the foundation of our public television system.

    Obviously, the same can be said about radio. We also have an English public radio network and a French public radio network that broadcast throughout the country.

    I would like to know if you also have a regulatory body, which not only ensures that both networks, English and French, are preserved, but which also regulates, as was mentioned earlier, ownership of the various television and radio services, be they public or private. Do you have such a government regulator?

¿  (0955)  

[English]

    Mr. Valentin Nikitin (Interpretation): Yes, we have such a body. It is called the Ministry of Information, the minister is Mr. Lesin, and this minister is responsible for all these kinds of things.

    Mr. Kaadyr-ool Bicheldey (Deputy Chairman, Committee on Nationalities) (Interpretation): I have a question. Do you have here in Canada companies that broadcast or have radio programs in the languages of native people, aboriginal languages as well as everybody else's?

    Ms. Liza Frulla: Yes.

    Mr. Kaadyr-ool Bicheldey (Interpretation): I would like to add that in the Republic of Tyva within the Russian Federation the programs that are broadcast on the radio in my native language, Tyvan, are given even more time than the federal programs and broadcasts.

    Ms. Liza Frulla: It's in our mandate to make sure the aboriginal community is well served. We have this concern about really serving the aboriginal community as well as, like I said, the French community and the English community. There are also private broadcasters who cater to other nationalities because there's a multinational dimension here in Canada. We try to give this service, but the major service is of course in French and English. We try to service all our other communities but with a special concern for the aboriginal ones.

    Mr. Sergey Budajapov (Deputy Chairman, Committee on Nationalities) (Interpretation): Yesterday we had a very interesting meeting, and we have very many questions. I'm afraid we will not be able to ask them all.

    My question is this. There are here now some deputies from the Russian State Duma, the Russian parliament, from the opposition Communist Party. I wonder, do you have here in Canada some federal restrictions on foreign TV broadcasts or radio programs?

À  (1000)  

    Mr. Kaadyr-ool Bicheldey (Interpretation): There are no such programs in Russia.

    The Chair: What happens is that if somebody wants to broadcast a foreign channel, they ask for permission from the CRTC, the regulator. If the regulator agrees, then that program can be broadcast. They get given a licence.

    For instance, right now there's a request before the CRTC to license Al Jazeera, the Arab network. The CRTC will look at it, decide whether there's enough space among the channels and whether they should or they shouldn't, and once they decide, then it becomes a fact. We have programs broadcast in Spanish and other foreign languages, but they have to be licensed by the CRTC.

    Mr. Valentin Nikitin (Interpretation): There's one little amendment. The question was, can your Canadian companies broadcast material made in foreign countries without any restriction or limitation?

    For example, in Russia, we have our Russian-based channels, which broadcast very many movies and other things made and produced in the United States, for example, and they do it absolutely without any restriction or limitation. What about stations here?

    Ms. Liza Frulla: Let's say we're talking about public broadcasters. We can have a movie made in Russia and subtitled, there's no problem. The only place there is a concern is, is there any interest from the viewers for one program versus another? Often enough we could have a movie--you gave the movie example--in another language, for example, a film that is made elsewhere, maybe in Europe, that is shown on public TV or even on private TV. If the viewers are interested in it, that's how we proceed.

    Now, to have a specific channel--specific--or a foreign channel, then you need a licence. But it's important to know that the regulatory body doesn't answer to the minister; it's completely independent. You can't put any pressure on it from the government side to say, for example, we would like to give one group a licence or not. It's completely independent; that's how we function. There's a big distance between government and what's shown, produced, and bought as far as networks are concerned.

À  (1005)  

    Mr. Nikolay Sorokin (Deputy Chairman, Committee on Culture and Tourism) (Interpretation): Do you have here in Canada any broadcasts that may somehow be immoral, may somehow be pornographic or reflect some unpopular and bad things that should not be viewed by the nation in total? Is there any federal body that controls such programs and stops such information from being put on the screen?

    The Chair: I will ask Ms. Bulte. She asked to make a comment. Maybe she could pick it up and talk about the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council and the rules.

    Meanwhile, I would like to introduce Mr. James Lunney, who is a member of the official opposition, the Canadian Alliance party. He represents a riding on Vancouver Island in British Columbia.

    My colleague Paul Bonwick is a vice-chair of the committee on the government side and represents a riding in Ontario north of Toronto.

    I will turn the meeting over to Ms. Bulte, who will pick up the question and of course make comments of her own as well. Ms. Bulte.

    Ms. Sarmite Bulte (Parkdale—High Park, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

    Let me begin by saying welcome to Canada and welcome to the House of Commons. Dobry den'.

    As you've probably seen by my name, my heritage is Latvian. I happen to be the first person of Baltic or Latvian heritage who has taken a seat in the House of Commons, and that was done in 1997.

    I apologize for my lateness, but I'm also currently chairing the Prime Minister's task force on women entrepreneurs. We are looking at the fact that women are creating businesses at two times the rate of men in Canada, and we're looking at how we can advance the contribution of women to our economy as part of the innovation agenda of our government.

    I'd like to answer Mr. Sorokin's question regarding pornography. We have criminal laws in Canada with respect to pornography. Generally, if something is very pornographic, it can be found to be criminal, but we also have the Canada Broadcast Standards Council, which monitors what is shown on television. We also have channels that are known as “pay per view”. You may need to write it down.

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    Ms. Sarmite Bulte: Now, the question of whether or not something is pornographic is very difficult to decide at times. What constitutes artistic merit and what is pornographic? It's not an easy question to answer.

    There are also many organizations in Canada that monitor what is on television, especially for children, and that will report back to the Broadcast Standards Council or to the broadcaster.

    We also have pay per view television, which is done mostly with satellites, where you can actually purchase whatever you want to watch, but that is blocked off. You have to pay an additional amount to watch that and it's usually placed late at night.

    As relates to our public broadcaster, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, when they try to put on something we find inappropriate, that is also reported here to the committee and to Parliament, so they are ultimately answerable to all of us.

À  (1010)  

    It is a complex process because you have both the freedom of choice and censorship. We have to balance censorship against our different freedoms, and there's the need to protect women and our children, so it is a delicate balance we have to find.

    If I may, I'd like to speak a little about the International Network for Cultural Policy, which was actually founded by our current Minister of Canadian Heritage in 1998 when she brought together approximately 23 culture ministers to Canada to discuss issues of culture.

    It was the first time the ministers of culture had met internationally in such a way. We have finance ministers and foreign affairs ministers who meet all the time, and we felt it was important to have the opportunity to meet ministers from around the world to discuss issues that were common to cultural ministers, for example, promoting their own domestic culture while participating in international trade agreements.

    It was a meeting similar to where in the Council of Europe the ministers of cultural heritage meet on a regular basis. Canada is only an observer at that, but it was formed on the same basis.

    There are approximately 42 member countries that are now part of this network. Under Canada's leadership, from this network has evolved a new international instrument on cultural diversity, a new treaty that would take cultural goods and services outside the World Trade Organization.

    Canada is in a unique position in living next to the United States, wherein everything comes over into Canada by satellite. We live, one would say, next to the world's largest monoculture. The United States sees arts and culture as no different than any other business, but we see it differently. We see it as part of our national identity and part of our sovereignty.

À  (1015)  

    Our position at the World Trade Organization and in bilateral trade agreements is to exempt culture from those trade agreements. We are looking forward to working with other countries to promote this new international instrument or treaty, which is not about protectionism but allows each country to promote its own domestic policy, as our minister stated, reserving spaces for our stories while at the same time opening the door to other countries and other stories. It's ensuring that there is a space for our own stories.

    I would be interested in hearing how you feel about it and what Russia's position is with respect to culture, especially at the World Trade Organization, where we are currently in negotiation on the GATS, the General Agreement on Trade in Services.

    If you are not a member of the International Network for Cultural Policy, I would invite you to consider becoming a member.

À  (1020)  

    Mr. Nikolay Sorokin (Interpretation): I know that you here in Canada fight very strictly against smoking, and you introduced some anti-smoking bylaws. With respect to that, I wonder, do you have on your television any commercials for cigarettes, beer, other alcoholic beverages, and things like that, and on what basis do you have these commercials? Are there quotations, and is the time limited for such commercials?

    Ms. Liza Frulla: The answer is no, and I can answer that because I was in the beer business for nine years.

    Ms. Sarmite Bulte: We do not allow tobacco or alcohol advertising at all, and it is limited for beer. You can't see anybody drinking it, you can just see the bottle.

À  (1025)  

    Ms. Liza Frulla: We can't show smoking, and the decision was taken by the tobacco companies themselves about, I'd say, fifteen years ago. It's the same for alcoholic beverages such as vodka; you can't show them on TV.

    Beer you can, but the advertiser himself prefers having his spots at night, when you have adults seeing them, so it's sort of self-regulating. But there are restrictions on beer. You can see someone pouring beer in a glass, but you can't see people drinking it. What you can see is—

    Ms. Sarmite Bulte: —lots of pretty women.

    Ms. Liza Frulla: Exactly. Lots of pretty women, but there is regulation.

    Ms. Sarmite Bulte: It's a lifestyle thing.

    Ms. Liza Frulla: And the beer companies have to put a certain amount towards an anti-alcoholism campaign, to say to people, the problem is not drinking but drinking too much, or don't drink and drive. They do have to contribute to this campaign to counter the effects of alcoholism.

    Mr. Valentin Nikitin (Interpretation): I would like to thank you.

    Unfortunately, we have to interrupt our meeting because now we have a meeting with Speaker Hays, and I hope that tonight we'll be able to continue our discussion.

    Thank you very much once again, and I would like to present you a gift for you to remember our cultural heritage.

    The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Nikitin.

    I would like to mention two things in passing. First of all, the transcript of this meeting will be available, if you are interested. We can send you the transcript, which will be in English and French, and then you can get it translated as you want. Second, we're going to be seeing each other tonight at dinner at 6 o'clock in the parliamentary restaurant.

    Unfortunately, before this was set up, I had accepted an invitation to chair another dinner with one of your delegations from the Kyrgyz Republic that is visiting here now. Tonight the dinner will be hosted by my colleague Paul Bonwick, and Jim Abbott, the other vice-chair, will also be there. I'll be there for a little while at 6 o'clock, but I'll have to go to this other dinner at seven.

    The Russian delegations who come to our country are many.

    Thank you. Spasibo.

    [Proceedings continue in camera]