PACC Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES COMPTES PUBLICS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, February 20, 2001

• 1537

[English]

The Clerk of the Committee: Honourable members, I see a quorum.

Your first item of business is to elect a chair of this committee. I'm ready to receive motions to that effect.

Mr. Philip Mayfield (Cariboo—Chilcotin, Canadian Alliance): Madam Clerk, I nominate John Williams.

Mr. Greg Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest, PC): Madam Clerk, I nominate John Bryden from the government side.

For clarification, Madam Clerk, are you talking about chairman or vice-chairmen?

The Clerk: Chair.

Mr. Greg Thompson: I'm nominating John Bryden. Is that out of order?

The Clerk: Yes, you did.

It has been moved by Mr. Mayfield that Mr. John Williams do take the chair of this committee as chair. Is it the pleasure of this committee to adopt the said motion?

Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.): We must have the vote, Madam Clerk. It's such an important post that I think a recorded vote is very important. I know the Canadian Alliance likes this sort of thing.

The Clerk: I repeat, is it the pleasure of this committee to adopt the said motion?

(Motion agreed to)

The Clerk: Mr. Williams is the elected chair of this committee.

The Chair (Mr. John Williams (St. Albert, Canadian Alliance): Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.): I would like to nominate Marlene Jennings and Mac Harb for the two vice-chairs.

The Chair: Okay, one at a time. We'll take Madam Jennings. Moved by Mr. Jackson that Madam Jennings be a vice-chair.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: The next motion is from Mr. Bryden.

Mr. John Bryden: I would like to nominate Mac Harb, one of my own, as vice-chair.

An hon. member: Reluctantly.

Mr. John Bryden: No, absolutely not.

(Motion agreed to)

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The Chair: First of all, on behalf of the two vice-chairs and myself, I thank the committee for their endorsement, and we hope to work collaboratively and effectively on behalf of the Parliament of Canada, indeed all Canadians, to ensure that government is accountable.

I would also like to introduce to the committee our new clerk. Mr. Fournier has been moved on to other responsibilities, and we have Madam Santosh Sirpaul here, who is going to be our clerk on a permanent basis. We welcome you to the committee.

The Clerk: Thank you.

The Chair: The standard motions to get organized.... Has this been circulated?

The Clerk: Yes.

The Chair: It has been circulated. I believe you all have copies of the circulated....

The first one is the establishment of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure, being the steering committee. The motion is that the chair, the two vice-chairs, an additional Liberal member, and a representative of the Bloc Québécois, the New Democratic Party, and the Progressive Conservative Party do compose the subcommittee on agenda and procedure.

Mr. Odina Desrochers (Lotbinière-L'Érable, BQ): I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: Library of Parliament: that the committee retain the services of one or more research officers of the Library of Parliament, as needed, to assist the committee in its work, at the discretion of the chair.

Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: Hearing evidence and the publication of the same when a quorum is not present: that the chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive evidence when a quorum is not present, provided at least five members are present, including three government members and two members of the official opposition.

Mr. Philip Mayfield: I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: Reduced quorum—this is in the finance committee, I understand: that in the absence of a reduced quorum of five members, the chair be authorized to call the meeting to order to hear evidence no sooner than fifteen minutes after the time indicated on the notice, provided that three members are present.

Mr. Mac Harb (Ottawa Centre, Lib.): I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: Allocation of time for questioning—we may have some suggestions on this: that the witnesses be given five minutes to make their opening statement, and if they have additional information, it should be deposited with the clerk of the committee, and that during the questioning of the witnesses there be allocated eight minutes for the first questioner of each party, and that thereafter four minutes be allocated to each subsequent questioner, at the discretion of the chair.

Mr. Odina Desrochers: I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: Witness expenses: that, as established by the Board of Internal Economy and if requested, reasonable travelling, accommodation, and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses who are invited to appear before the committee, up to a maximum of two representatives for any organization.

Mr. Ovid Jackson: I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: Working lunches: that the committee authorize the chair from time to time, as the need arises, to take, in conjunction with the clerk of the committee, the appropriate measures to provide lunches for the committee and its subcommittees for working purposes, and that the cost of the these lunches be charged to the budget of the committee.

Ms. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): May I amend it?

The Chair: You may.

Ms. Marlene Jennings: Provide decent lunches? Digestible lunches? Tasty?

The Chair: We'll take that under advisement, but I don't think it's an amendment.

Mr. Alan Tonks (York South—Weston, Lib.): I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: Your point is noted, Ms. Jennings.

Distribution of documents: that the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute documents received from the public only after they have been translated and made available in both official languages.

Mr. Gilles Perron (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ): I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

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The Chair: The next motion is that the committee schedule a meeting on Thursday, February 22, 2001, at 3:30 p.m., with the Auditor General in attendance, who will discuss priorities for the consideration of the December 2000 report, containing several chapters; and that at 5 p.m. the subcommittee on agenda and procedure meet to plan its future business.

Mr. Mac Harb: I so move.

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: There being no further business before this committee, this meeting will stand adjourned. The next meeting is at 3:30 p.m. on February 22.

Just before I adjourn the meeting, I should mention to you that next Tuesday the Auditor General will be tabling a capstone report in the House of Commons. I understand he intends to do that in routine proceedings at ten o'clock in the morning. I will be asking the steering committee on Thursday afternoon to hold a public accounts committee meeting at 10:30 next Tuesday, rather than our normal time of 3:30 p.m., so that the Auditor General can present his capstone report to the public accounts committee in lieu of a lock-up. I'll be asking that permission from the steering committee. So take note: 10:30 in the Reading Room, I believe it is going to be, next Tuesday morning. I will advise everybody.

Members of the subcommittee would be myself, Mr. Harb, Ms. Jennings, one member from the Bloc Québécois, Monsieur Desrochers, one member from the Progressive Conservatives, Mr. Thompson. We don't have anyone speaking on behalf of the NDP. We need one additional Liberal.

Mr. Mac Harb: Are you open for volunteers?

The Chair: We're open for volunteers. Mr. Shepherd, are you volunteering? Don't all speak at once, please.

John Bryden, will you serve on the steering committee of the public accounts committee?

Mr. John Bryden: Excellent, yes.

The Chair: Okay. Mr. Bryden.

We're missing the NDP. We have Mr. Nystrom for the NDP.

Mr. Murphy.

Mr. Shawn Murphy (Hillsborough, Lib.): Could you tell us what the normal schedule of the committee is? Is it twice a week, once a week, five times a week?

The Chair: Normal committee meetings are held on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, because so many people are not available on Mondays and Fridays. The normal time for the public accounts committee is 3:30 to 5:30. Normally we meet in this room, but sometimes it's in a different room. As you may recall, the week before the election it was a different room.

[Laughter]

An hon. member: We want a public inquiry on that.

The Chair: That is the norm, for the newer members. The basis of the work of the public accounts committee emanates from the reports of the Auditor General.

The steering committee will meet on Thursday and will set out a series of meetings and topics that will be discussed. We then ask the clerk to bring in the witnesses from the senior members of the bureaucracy, deputy ministers and so on. Depending on their availability, the arrangement of the order of the meetings can change a little bit.

We ask that all members read the specific chapter of the Auditor General's report pertaining to that particular meeting before coming to the meeting.

At the end of the table where you are sitting, Mr. Murphy, is where the witnesses sit—the Auditor General on one half, and the department who are defending their position on the other half. It's up to us to ask questions and bring testimony out onto the table. We start, as I said, with the official opposition, the Canadian Alliance, then the Bloc Québécois, then the Liberals. Everybody normally has a chance to ask the questions they want from the testimony from the Auditor General's report and from the opening statements provided.

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Our researchers, Mr. O'Neal and Mr. Dupuis, write a report that comes back to this committee for debate, discussion, and adoption. Assuming it is adopted, it is then presented to Parliament and the government through the House of Commons, and then they have 150 days to respond, saying they agree, disagree, or wish to proceed otherwise with the report.

So that is a general, very quick outline of the process.

There is no requirement that we stay exclusively with the report of the Auditor General, but because so much information is provided to us in terms of background and detail, we have normally stayed with the Auditor General's report.

Before I adjourn the meeting, are there any other questions from members?

The next meeting will be at 3:30 p.m. on Thursday.

The meeting is adjourned.