PACC Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Standing Committee on Public Accounts

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Thursday, February 7, 2002

Mr. Calvin Piggott

The Chair

Mr. Calvin Piggott

The Chair

Mr. Ato Lemma (Auditor General of Ethiopia)

The Chair

Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot, Lib.)

The Chair

CANADA

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

Thursday, February 7, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[English]

    Mr. Calvin Piggott (Senior Development Officer, Horn of Africa, Canadian International Development Agency): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    My name is Calvin Piggott, and I'm on the Ethiopia desk at CIDA.

    Today it is indeed a distinct honour to introduce our delegation from Ethiopia. We have the Auditor General of Ethiopia in the middle here, Ato Lemma. On my immediate right is the Auditor General from the Benishangul-Gumuz National Regional State government, Ato Mussa. On my far right is the Auditor General from the Amhara National Regional State government, Ato Belachew.

    The Chair: We also have Nancy Clifford, a senior development specialist from Graybridge International Consulting, Inc. Welcome.

    Mr. Calvin Piggott: And our colleague from the Auditor General's office is Manfred Kuhnapfel, on the international program, so we're represented across the spectrum here today.

    The Chair: I understand that Ato Lemma, the Auditor General of Ethiopia, would like to address us with a few remarks. Ato Lemma.

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    Mr. Ato Lemma (Auditor General of Ethiopia): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am really honoured to address this august committee. It's a distinct privilege and opportunity for us to be present here and see the work of the public accounts committee. This is our first experience, so if we sound like children on their first school day, please excuse us and guide us in this session.

    In Ethiopia we embarked on the road to federalism only about nine years ago. The experience of Canada is very useful, especially in terms of us, as professional auditors, coming in front of the public accounts committee to learn the important tasks of public accountability and transparency, and how Canadians practise these very important elements of democracy and governance.

    I am assuming there may be some people here who are not really familiar with the Ethiopian situation and Ethiopia. Ethiopia is a very old country in Africa, perhaps the oldest country in Africa, with a history of many centuries. It has a large population, by African standards, of about 65 million people.

    Before the advent of federalism we had a socialist government, which was overthrown in 1991. In its place a federal type of system was introduced, with a national constitution and regional governments with their own autonomy and constitutions. They have been given the important powers and authorities of taxing and spending, as well as other functions.

    The federal system has been working for nine years, and the institutions, although new, are grappling with new federal problems. The most important is the lack of skilled manpower in the systems put in place to carry out the functions of government administration and the important tasks of public accountability and transparency. These really need institutions to be put in place, like our office of the Auditor General.

    Most of the regional governments' resources come from the central federal government--some to the tune of 90%.

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    The federal government has an accountability obligation for the funds it devolves to the regions. Also, the regional offices have to account to the federal government for the funds that have devolved. But they have the power to control the part of their finance they have raised by way of their own taxation.

    My government is in the process of carrying out public sector civil service reform. As part of the switch, the capacity building of external audit and internal audit are supposed to be one, and for these we have solicited assistance. Canada is generously willing to assist us through CIDA, and we have a small project--well, it's not a small project for us, but from the Canadian resources available to us, the Canadian point of view, compared to the commitments, it may be small. For us it's a big one. We are here to discuss with our counterparts how we are supposed to use this assistance.

    We have also been visiting a number of Canadian institutions through this familiarization program. Especially, we have visited the office of the Auditor General, where we had a very generous and detailed briefing. We have also visited some other institutions, professional accountancy institutions, because our concern is also to build the accountancy profession in our country. We want to learn very much from the Canadian experience.

    We have also met and discussed issues with the Canadian institutions that have been doing some developmental works and consultancies and the like. We found our familiarization program a learning experience, and today it is culminating by our coming to this committee to learn more about the public accounts committee in Canada.

    This is what I want to say in a nutshell. Thank you, sir.

    The Chair: Well, thank you very much, Ato Lemma. We do appreciate very much you coming to speak with us this afternoon.

    We are fully aware that your country has gone through some difficult times in the last number of years. We're certainly glad that we in Canada are able to share our experiences with you. We're also glad that our agencies, such as CIDA and the Auditor General's office, are working with you to try to improve the quality of governance, not just in Ethiopia, but elsewhere around the world and here in Canada too, because we need good governance as much as anybody needs good governance.

    I know Mr. John Bosley, a former speaker of the House of Commons, is working through a project funded by CIDA in partnership with the Parliamentary Centre here in Ottawa. He's working on a four-year program in Ethiopia to improve the effectiveness of parliament, which I believe is the objective of that particular program.

     I think it is wonderful to see parliamentarians and auditors general and others who have the responsibility of providing governance to our citizens working together to try to ensure that we deliver the best we can.

    I'm going to open it up for some brief comments. Mr. Bryden, you have something to say.

    Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot, Lib.): Yes, I do.

    I thank you for your presentation, and because the chairman is very modest, I would like to make some observations about the committee you see before you that may be helpful to the type of accounting regime you are trying to put together in Ethiopia.

    One of the things that we as parliamentarians often forget is that this committee, the public accounts committee, is the grandfather, if you will, for the entire accounting regime in government. All the various departments and their accountants, the Auditor General, all ultimately report to this committee, and in so doing, I think it is very important to realize that in our parliamentary system here in Canada, a standing committee like this has enormous power. Rarely do we ever have to exercise that power, but in fact the elected representatives you see before you, both opposition and government members of Parliament, have the power to summon documents from the government, to request testimony from the government, to hold the government to account whenever this committee feels, as a result of what it learns from the Auditor General and the various witnesses, a need to demand answers from the government.

    So whatever system you are putting together in Ethiopia, I would hope that you would take note of the fact that in our particular system, in the end, the power of demanding transparency and good governance actually rests with a committee like this Standing Committee on Public Accounts that you see before you.

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    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Bryden.

    To reinforce that, I understand that the Parliament of Ethiopia is looking at developing a public accounts committee. I'm glad you did point out that we have, as a committee, a tremendous amount of power that we could exercise if necessary, because Parliament is supreme and superior to government. Government is accountable to Parliament, and Parliament is accountable to the people. That is how any democracy has to work: there has to be accountability. And as auditors general, you very much have that responsibility to speak out and defend the principles of democracy, probity, and accuracy in the financial affairs of your nation.

    We hope that your visit to Canada has been productive and that the liaisons you've developed with our CIDA organization and with the Auditor General's office will continue on for the benefit of all of us and the people of Ethiopia as well.

    Are there any other comments?

    We thank you for coming. We know you have had a busy schedule here these last few days.

    They were actually supposed to come to the committee here last week, but they were stuck in Toronto with the snowstorm--which is not normally a reason you can use in Ethiopia.

    So I thank you all for coming, and I will suspend the meeting and we will move in camera.

    [Proceedings continue in camera]