:
Good morning everyone. I would like to call to order this 8th meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence.
[English]
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Thursday, March 16, 2010, we will do a brief study and receive a briefing on the rehiring of retired soldiers and staff by the department.
I am very pleased to have with us as witnesses today, from the Department of National Defence, Major General Walter Semianiw, chief of military personnel, and Gail Johnson,
[Translation]
Director General, Civilian Employment Strategies and Programs, Assistant Deputy Minister (Human Resources Civilian), and Colonel Kevin Moher, Director, Land Personnel Management, Army G1, Chief of the Land Staff.
I would like to welcome all our witnesses. Thank you very much for being with us today. You will have
[English]
about ten minutes. After that the members will be able to engage in conversation with you.
Thank you for being here. The floor is yours.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ladies and gentlemen, it is a pleasure to appear before you today to discuss the rehiring of retired personnel by the Canadian Forces.
[English]
Before I begin, let me introduce the other key witnesses present here with me today. First, from the land staff is Colonel Kevin Moher. He is the officer responsible for management for the army of people. Also with me, from the assistant deputy minister, civilian human resources, is Gail Johnson, director general, civilian employment strategies and programs, who is responsible for civilian personnel employment within the Department of National Defence.
My own area of responsibility in the subject of interest today relates to the policy governing the personnel administration of the reserve component of the Canadian Forces in full- and part-time positions. The rules governing the employment of Canadian Forces annuitants are included in this policy. We will begin with a brief overview of the policy to set the scene for the committee.
[Translation]
As you know, the Canadian Forces is a total force comprised of a regular component, made up of personnel who have agreed to serve on a continuing basis, and a reserve component, made up of personnel who have agreed to serve on other than a continuing basis. For a variety of reasons, it is sometimes necessary to employ personnel from one component in units of the other component. Afghanistan is an obvious example of this.
[English]
We have large numbers of reservists serving alongside their regular force counterparts in theatre today and expect to do so as long as we are deployed and have troops abroad.
In addition, because we are a volunteer service, movement between the components, the regular force and the reserve force, based on personal decision and personal circumstances, is allowed and relatively common; indeed, it has been going on since the 1950s. This leads to transfers between components whereby personnel from the reserves become members of the regular force and vice versa. It is not uncommon for military personnel to transfer to the reserve component on retirement from the regular component. This allows them to continue to serve and allows the Canadian Forces to benefit from their expertise.
This is, of course, not the only method available to the Canadian Forces to continue to avail itself of the knowledge and expertise invested in its retiring members during their careers with the regular force component. Depending on personal circumstances and long-term objectives, some choose to continue as public servants. Others make themselves available for temporary employment as employees of contracting firms used by the department and the Government of Canada via the PWGSC standing contracts.
[Translation]
Why do we need these people? Why do we not use personnel from the regular component?
[English]
As you know, the Canadian Forces is expanding its personnel establishment as directed in the Canada First defence strategy. Indeed, I am pleased to announce today that we did meet our targets for last year, not grosso modo seulement, not in overall general terms only, but it has been the best year in many years in recruiting our stress trades.
While we have been very successful in our recruiting efforts, it takes time to train and to develop new personnel to the point at which they can contribute effectively to military operations and to necessary administrative functions. As a result, we have a large number of personnel in the training pipeline who are unavailable for employment in positions calling for a trained, effective person. Right now, we have approximately 4,800 of these positions without qualified personnel in the regular force to fill them. It is these positions, as well as the mission in Afghanistan, that lead to the largest use of reservists on a full-time basis.
[Translation]
I should also point out that relatively few of these positions require a senior officer. The majority do not. For example, there are slightly over 3,000 corporals and an equal number of sergeants from the reserve component employed full-time with the regular component. This is a case of making use of expertise resident in the reserve component—across the entire rank structure—to satisfy a genuine military requirement.
[English]
Let me explain how we go about deciding to use a specific reservist in a specific position.
The first step is to attempt to fill the position with a member of the regular component. Only when it has been determined that this will not be possible do we consider using a reservist. The requirement is then announced, at first locally and then nationwide if required, to all units of the reserve component via an employment opportunity message. This message describes the job to be done, the rank and occupation of the person required, and any other applicable administrative details. There is a minimum period of 30 days within which any reservist who meets the stated requirements may apply for consideration.
[Translation]
Once the 30-day application period has closed, the unit requiring the services of the reservist will review all applications received, conduct interviews as required, and select the individual thus qualified to fill the position.
This is an open, transparent process that is similar to the hiring process used by the public service.
[English]
Recently, to enhance transparency and make the process more efficient, we have introduced a web-based application, which we'll be more than pleased to discuss during the question period. This is an in-house application accessible by all reservists, which replaces paper-based processes used in the past. In addition to making the process more efficient, it also allows for better quality control by higher headquarters, thereby ensuring transparency and fairness. At this time there are two pilots going on, with the new software being trialled in my organization at chief military personnel command, and within the army.
It's also important for you to understand that our current need for reservists will not continue forever. The people now in the training pipeline will become functional. In due course the position now occupied by a reservist will be filled by someone from the regular component. So in time our need for reservists will decline. I doubt it will ever completely disappear, but I'm confident that it will be considerably smaller in the future. In the interim it will continue, and there will be periods from one to three years when we will need qualified personnel from the regular component to support and replace those positions that are vacant.
[Translation]
I would also like you to understand that not all the reservists now employed by the Canadian Forces are also annuitants. Of the 3,000 or so corporals, only 336 are annuitants. In fact, only one in four reservists currently employed on a full-time basis is an annuitant.
[English]
As mentioned earlier, I'm responsible for the policies that govern the personnel administration of the employment of reservists. This policy allows for augmentation of the regular force by reservists in two ways. The first allows for the temporary employment of reservists in administrative or instructional positions. The second allows for employment of reservists in regular force positions or in approved operations.
Embedded within the policy are also rules relating to the employment of reservists who are also Canadian Forces annuitants. These rules apply to both options just described. The Canadian Forces has two options available in which a reservist who is also a Canadian Forces annuitant can be employed on a full-time basis. Those rules and regulations are defined by the Treasury Board of Canada.
Option one limits the period of employment to a maximum of 330 days in any one period of 365 days.
[Translation]
The second option allows for the continuous, full-time employment of the reservist. In option one, the reservist continues to draw his or her annuity. In the second option, the reservist is required to contribute to the Canadian Forces pension fund after 365 days of employment, and the annuity ceases.
[English]
This, in a nutshell, is the policy relevant to today's discussion.
[Translation]
We are now available to respond to your questions and comments. Thank you.
:
Is the question alluding to the new software we've put in place?
Hon. Bryon Wilfert: Yes.
MGen Walter Semianiw: Over the last year we looked at some of these issues at the heart of class B hiring, and one of them was how we could create a monster.ca for reservists. It was done more for the reserves, not for us. That was the idea that drove us this way. We wondered if we could have a site that any reserve soldier or anyone looking for reserve opportunity full-time could go to, to see all the jobs that are available, and that's what we worked toward.
It has existed within my organization since the first of January. I've got about 17,000 men and women in uniform under my command. Anyone who's looking for full-time reserve service in military personnel command goes to one site, so that was the first step. All the jobs are posted. They will also see everyone who's applied for the job. They will also see what all the requirements are for that position, so nothing is hidden, it's all very open--fitness, training requirements for that position. This is the last piece that needs to come into play, which I know will be raised by this committee.
When the individual who hires those folks hires them, that individual knows this process has been open. Getting to the point of hiring, and that's the issue, I don't hire folks in class B; I let those in my command. If someone on this committee were to turn to me and ask why this person was hired, I'd tell you unless it's in my command I can't tell you why, but now I know, because I've got this centralized system. I can tell you that last month I had 70 class B full-time hires in my organization; I put that in place.
My next step is to control that. This is the exciting part. In many cases some of these folks might be better employed in the Canadian Forces somewhere else across the country, not where the job has been given. In the current construct, if you have money, from the lowest level to the highest, you can send out a three-year job bid and hire somebody. How do we ensure openness and transparency, centralized control, having the right people in the right place, and that it's done fairly? As I've said many times at committee before, just because you can doesn't mean you should, and I think you can apply that to everything in the world.
:
Mr. Chairman, first of all, we will provide the information to the Committee.
[English]
We'll give you all of the details posed here, including the number of regular force people who have gone on to become civil servants. The first question posed was perhaps across government, and that's the other thing we will look at and get you data about.
If I could expand on the one point and make sure that we talk about establishment, this piece is now outside my experience, because the establishment of the Canadian Forces is....
[Translation]
It is the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff who is responsible for modifying the Canadian Forces establishment.
[English]
It is the vice-chief who actually owns and manages the establishment, not me. I think I can provide you with an answer, but it's worth posing the question to him.
First, you cannot take, from my understanding and knowledge, a regular forces position and turn it into a class B position. The regular forces established position always stays regular forces established. What you can do, as in this case, is establish a class B reserve job and then have the individual come and occupy the same job. C'est possible, it's possible to do exactly what was described, but the details are not.... That is the way we've done it. You can't change a regular forces position to a class B position. You can create a class B job tomorrow morning. If I wanted to, I could wake up tomorrow and say that I think I need this position, this position, and this position, if I have the money, as I've stated. I can send out, in an open, transparent process, three established positions for short-term, three-year contracts. That's all within the policy.
In short, can this happen? Yes, it can. But at the end of it all, as I said—I don't know this specific case—who is actually doing the hiring? I can tell you my perspective. Within my command, I had 70 positions last year that were class B. The names of those individuals are now openly on the web. I can't speak to that case. But to be fair, could that happen? Yes, it could.
:
First of all, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say this.
[English]
That happens at the lowest level, starting at the unit level. It is not just at the highest level. Majors, lieutenant-colonels, colonels, and generals at any rank level could do that. As long as they are in command of an organization, they can do that with the establishment they own. So yes, it is possible to actually do that.
Just to make sure that we have the right words here, that position in the regular forces will still be there. But he has taken the individual who has taken his retirement and has taken a class B job, and has filled that, which actually has happened. I can't speak to this case, but in every case I know of, it's done on the basis of loss of knowledge, and it's always for the short term--un an, deux ans, trois ans--and it's not full-time.
[Translation]
Mr. Chairman, could you just give me a moment, please.
[English]
I don't want to make this more complex, but this is where is gets more complex. I indulge the committee here.
I didn't mention this, but there are also two types of full-time reserve positions. There are established full-time reserve positions and there are those that are full-time, but only for one, two, or three years. If you look at the structure of the Canadian Forces, there are full-time established positions that will go from now to eternity, because they're in the Canadian Forces. In all of those cases, every one that I know of is a reservist and has been a reservist in those established positions. The case we're talking about here is a one-, two-, or three-year contract that's not forever or actually in the overall establishment as an established full-time position. But it is possible, exactly as was posed here.
:
To answer the last part of the question, yes, at any point in time you have the opportunity to grieve on a particular position if you believe you were not treated fairly.
To answer the first part of the question, which I think becomes the heart of this discussion, currently there is no policy in place that says you will pick this person over that person. It doesn't exist. There is no policy that says you will have this person or that person. It is now based purely on the skills that you bring to the position, and that's it, so when they look at the skills that are required for this position, I would hope the person who is chosen will have the name that's connected to the person with the skills.
I come back to my comment: therein lies the challenge for a reservist, who perhaps has not had the same opportunities as someone who has served full time in either the reserves or the regular forces. I can only assume that is being done, but there is no national policy that says you will prefer anyone over anybody else. That doesn't exist. I own that policy; it doesn't exist.
What is needed is the next step, which you touched on. That's to take a look at it to ensure that not only is the process now transparent, but also that the actual hiring process itself becomes transparent, if that's clear. We've now put it open that here are the skills and here are the people applying for it; now what happens in that selection process? That I can't tell you across the CF, because I don't hire these people.
:
Agreed, but I would say that's not being done, because if you take a look--and I do own this part of the career process--every year we hold merit boards for each rank level. Merit boards are established and then people are promoted. That hasn't changed. Now we're just talking about positions in the regular force.
Most of the positions that we're talking about here have been created, as mentioned in the comments up front, because of the current high demand for individuals, given Afghanistan and the need to expand the Canadian Forces in the longer term, even though we've recruited people up front.
If you take a look at the establishment of the Canadian Forces, it is going to be relooked at. We need a new establishment for the Canadian Forces for regular force, full-time reserves, and part-time reserves. That's what needs to be built, and that's what they're beginning to work on right now to ensure that everyone gets a chance, which I believe they do right now in the reserve force, to continue with their career progression.
However, the challenge becomes this: there are reservists, when you look into it, who are not in permanent reserve positions and who have to recompete every three years for a job. Therein lies the challenge.
:
Every year, when we hold our merit boards--which are words to mean that a group of individuals at the appropriate rank level come into a room and look at the files for every occupation in the Canadian Forces.... That's infantry, armoured, and artillery at every rank level. We have hundreds of these. They run annually, from September until the end of November. They then produce a merit list. That is the list that is used to promote people every year in the Canadian military in the regular force.
In the merit system, producing that list is actually done electronically, to give you a little bit of detail. Files are scored based on a number of factors--on leadership, on education, on official language requirements, and on backgrounds. People are allocated scores, the scores come out, and the people with the highest scores obviously are higher on the list. But at the end of it all, a merit board produces a list that goes from one to the number of people within a trade or occupation across the Canadian Forces.
At the end of November, we take a look at who is leaving the Canadian Forces, who is retiring. Then we contact those on the list and say, for instance, “In all likelihood, you could be promoted this year, because we have three people leaving, and you're numbers one, two, and three on the list.”
It's very open, very transparent, and happens every year in the Canadian Forces. It's probably done nowhere across any government in this detail to ensure that the right people are promoted with the right skills and qualifications for future positions.
We then also ask the chain of command, those who are in charge of the units, to write.... Every year you get a PER, a piece of paper that describes how you did over the last year in a number of areas. As well, the chain of command comments on your future potential.
So when you take a look at career progression, it's based on two components: one is your performance and one is your potential. They come together to produce that list, from which we determine who is promoted.
On the class B side--that's the regular force--the overall career management for class B is still held within the army, the navy, the air force. I don't control that, as the chief of military personnel.
I personally believe...and the Chief of the Defence Staff and I have talked about this. We'd like to move to a more centralized approach on the career management of reservists so that it moves out of the army, navy, air force and is held centrally by the chief of military personnel. I can then apply, as noted in those questions, those same processes and approaches that we have for the regular force today.
You've got to come back to the Canada First defence strategy. The Canada First defence strategy has laid out the targets for the regular force and the reserve force. Within that discussion you then have to look at the issue of what they're speaking to. In most cases in the reserve force, it's part-time reservists, not class B reservists.
The expansion as laid out by the government is to increase the reserve force to a higher number, 3,000; that is, expanding part-time reservists across Canada in the armouries. This expansion is still on track and is not affected in any way by this discussion.
On the reserve side, class B reservist, it's very simple. As I mentioned, we had about 4,000 to 5,000 historically. As the operational tempo goes down, as more people come through the training pipeline and are ready to assume those responsibilities and duties, the number of personnel who are on full-time class B employment will come down. That's the challenge.
I throw this out as an example of something that's worth the committee taking a look at. That is, if somebody decided to leave unannounced tomorrow morning from my organization--a colonel who has been in the organization for 25 years has decided to leave and is gone--how do I fill that, to be clear?
First, I would go to the merit list that we've talked about before, and I'd look at that person on the merit list and say that person is promoted. In some cases, if you have gone too far down the list, you have to ask, how far down do you go? Are we ensuring that individuals have the time behind them, and the experience and the credibility to move into those positions? That's why you might fill that position with someone who may have been around--regular force, one, two, or three years at every rank level, corporal, master corporal, sergeant. I have a sergeant who works for me who was regular force. He is on a three-year contract; he's filling a gap. His contract expires shortly and that's it. It was to fill the gap as someone is moving along who'll be able to fill it as we expand the Canadian Forces.
:
Yes. That's a fair question.
There are two issues. One, I know you actually qualify in this group, because I've looked at your bio.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
MGen Walter Semianiw: You could still enroll: we take people up to 52. We actually have recruits at the recruit school in Saint-Jean who Monsieur Bachand has met who are 50, 51, and 52. They change the dynamic of the recruiting system dramatically.
So you're right, we have people coming through, and that in itself is presenting its own challenges. What you really want as a target audience is 18 to 25, because at the end of it, when you're out there and you're humping a rucksack, it's a young person's game in many cases. It gets tougher when you get as old as I am. I've still got to do it. I did my PT test two weeks ago.
But I come back to the second issue, which is really fundamental to this discussion, and that is the training pipeline. What you speak to is what we call those on the basic training list. That number has expanded over the last number of years because we recruited so many people.
On the one hand, I've had great recruiting success. We recruited this year some 7,700 and some figures, grosso modo. The last time we had to do that successfully from a Canadian Forces perspective was the Korean War. So it's great kudos to the men and women in uniform who've recruited everybody, but then it's that training pipeline. So what are we doing?
As one of the honourable members will tell you, one of the things the air force has done is cut back the training required to train a pilot, because what was required was four years. It speaks to your issue. How do you keep someone motivated who came in wanting to fly for four years to cut that back? That's then challenged with the issue of safety, due diligence, with ensuring that people are trained effectively.
What we are doing--if I can give you some examples to kind of cut that down--is we partnered a year and a half ago with five community colleges across the country to start doing some of our training. We do not have enough people to do the training, which is why we've hired people on class B from the regular forces to come back and do the training for two or three years in many cases.
You'll find them in Saint-Jean, across the country in Wainwright, at any training establishment, because our training capacity is limited. That's where the question is. How are we going to ensure that we reduce the amount of time to an increasing number of folks coming in? We've partnered with five community colleges, and we're expanding the program so they do the training--geomatics training, cooks training--so we push people out.
We have spoken to a number of those in charge at community colleges, extremely happy with the program from our perspective and from theirs. It has actually assisted in the dress and deportment at the community colleges, because we have all of our men and women in uniform go to college in this program dressed in uniform. They actually move around like military soldiers, sailors, airmen, and airwomen. So it's actually added to that program as well.
But it is a critical challenge right now. That number is high, and how do you reduce the training pipeline without sacrificing the standards and the quality? You can always be more efficient, but when you touch effectiveness becomes the real challenge.
To answer your last question, I don't know anyone who's gaming the system. I'll tell you that to start with. I think if you're gaming the system you're not only being unfair to yourself and the Canadian Forces, but also to that position, because you haven't hired the best person for the job and that actually is having a detrimental effect on the Canadian Forces. If it is happening, I have not met anybody who is actually doing it, nor have seen myself someone who's gaming it.
In my organization I have some strict controls to ensure that the person who actually runs the software and runs the program works right next door to me and speaks to me on a daily basis. When things do come up, as I mentioned, there's actually oversight. So as for people gaming it, I can't tell you, but I would say if people are doing that it's to the detriment of a number of folks there.
It comes back to when we talk about the issue of what this is all about. If you take this up to 66,000 feet and look at the larger issue, it's the need towards more of a centralized approach. That's not for us, but it's for reservists so that they have one place to go in the navy, army, or air force if they want to look for a job. That's the first thing we're working on. Second, it's to ensure that the process is transparent and open like it should be. Third, the last piece, is that the selection process is open and transparent, and that's what we're moving towards.
:
Oui. Une bonne question. To add another complexity to this whole issue is that anyone who owns a budget has the authority to actually establish a class B position. Why? Because they have the money to do it.
Clearly they're going to have to show the person they work for that there is a need for the position. Those people who work for me have to show that we need a class B position and then they have to come to the table with the money.
That's part of the issue. It's not just left to those at the top, the generals and the colonels, but everyone who controls a budget. And in most cases, it goes all the way down. There are captains who command units.
[Translation]
There are unit commanders, captains, majors, lieutenant-colonels.
[English]
Anyone who has money, and that's a current construct, has the authority to establish a class B position. Then they have to go through the process, which is an open process, to select the needs for that position.
As I said, that was the issue for me within my command. People were being hired across the country within the organization without a centralized view or a prioritization, which is why we put the software in place. Everyone now has to come to one spot. I know exactly what class B positions are being put out there, and all the call orders.
:
Remember, it comes back to the length of the contract.
[Translation]
Contracts can be one year, two years or three years in length.
[English]
In many cases, the time is driven in part by how much money you have.
[Translation]
If you have enough money for three years, then in that case, you may want a three-year contract.
[English]
If you do a three-year contract, you are committing to the fact that you're going to have that money in your budget.
[Translation]
That is the challenge.
[English]
If you look at how priorities change—and that's what we're starting to see right now, the priorities are changing across the Canadian Forces—people who are in class B are being let go, which is why they're beginning to raise a number of questions: “What happened here? What happened to my job?” Well, there is no more job.
So across my organization, as I change my priorities, the policy guideline I put out is that all contracts will be respected until the end of the contract. At the end of the contract, we'll sit down and take a look at the need and see whether we will continue it.
[Translation]
Did I answer your question?
:
Thanks for that great question.
We actually had three pilots ongoing. The first was a medical pilot, with a trial in B.C. We wanted to reduce the number of medical doctors and physicians needed in the recruiting system. We ran a pilot, and it was successful. We paid a number of doctors in the Vancouver area to conduct the medicals for us.
I would only challenge the idea or notion that you can have your own doctor do it. We want to make sure a third independent party has a chance to look at you, versus your family doctor, to ensure that it's open, honest, and transparent.
We've done the pilot. We're looking at rolling the pilot across the country, where we have civilian doctors who have had some form of training from us and know exactly what they're looking for to speed up the process. That piece is actually done.
The second one was on the issue of fitness, which you didn't touch on. We removed fitness testing from the Canadian Forces recruiting system. I don't know if you were aware of that. We reduced fitness testing. We instead established a fitness company at Saint-Jean. You now arrive at Saint-Jean and do your fitness test on day one. If you pass, you continue with the training. If you don't pass, we make you become fit. We took an old drill hall at Saint-Jean and put in physical fitness training equipment. We have physical trainers.
Last year, because of that approach, we selected 550 Canadians who would otherwise not have been selected. We made them fit. Originally, the idea was that it would take 90 days. Most now leave after 30 days. It has been another way to speed up the process and bring in more people.
The third is the security piece. We are actually partnered with BackCheck. BackCheck does some of that security piece for us. It's a Canadian company. We looked at that. I personally looked at it in the early days to ensure it was a Canadian company. It does some security screening for us. As you mentioned, it can't do everything to ensure that those who have a C7 rifle or ammunition are people who can use it responsibly, but it has helped to speed up the system.
We've done the three pilots. The fitness one has now been training for one year. We're continuing, as you've seen. We've only had one individual join the Canadian Forces to be part of the fitness company and then quit right after. It has been a huge success in the end. It's the same for the BackCheck security work, which has sped up the process to 48 hours. Many companies use BackCheck. The last one is the medical pilot, which we're going to roll out across the country.
:
Monsieur le président, I will just answer different parts of the question.
First, it comes back to the definition of the words “continuing full-time service”, because if you look at continuing full-time service, I come back to
[Translation]
my explanations regarding people who occupy permanent positions in the reserve force.
[English]
That's permanent, full-time positions. One-, two-, three-year contract is not on continuing full-time service. This is what it comes back to. I can tell you this categorically, because I've asked this question.
What goes on now doesn't violate the law. If that's the case, then the law has been broken for the last 30 or 40 years. It comes back to an interpretation of the individual, who at least, I would submit, accepts some of it, and it comes back to one issue, which the individual fails to mention: hiring the person with the best knowledge and the most expertise. It's not mentioned there. What is mentioned is that they're just hiring someone. It comes back to this view that friends are hiring friends and people are hiring people. At the end of the day, that's not what it's about. It's about hiring someone
[Translation]
who basically has the knowledge, who
[English]
the skills to be able to do the job on a short-term basis to fill the need.
This is the issue that I would throw out to the committee. Be very careful when you take a look at all the anecdotal evidence, and yes, I understand that once you get enough anecdotes you can call it research. I understand that, but at the end of the day, you have to ask the question: who is the question being posed by? Is it being posed by...
[Translation]
—and this is very important—
[English]
somebody in the reserves who has been on a continuing three-year engagement, a three-year contract for the last 20 years? There are many; they exist. Are those the people who are unhappy? I don't know if that's who this individual is. Or is this a person who is on class A? I don't know.
There is a danger if we don't understand where the question comes from, because I have had people come and raise the issue to me: “I've been working in the regular force for 15 years”. “What have you been doing?”, I ask. “Class B, full-time reserve, three-year contract after three-year contract after three-year contract.” Remember, that's one of the reasons we put in the new reserve force pension plan, which reservists who are serving full-time can now pay into.
So if it's coming from that angle, I would only say this in a very open and positive way. There is no guarantee that your three-year contract is going to be renewed year after year. There was a view, except for the last three or four years, when things were going well, when the contracts were always being renewed. That's not the case right now. So there are a number of individuals—I've talked to them—who are unhappy, because their contracts are not being renewed because the numbers are coming down. Or they are saying, the flip side, that other people go into these jobs that are being created.