SPOR Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Sub-Committee on the Study of Sport in Canada of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, February 20, 2002

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1755

The Chair (Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto--Danforth, Lib.))

Ms. Joan Duncan (Canadian Representative, Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting Committee on Cooperation through Sport; President, COMMONWEALTH Games Canada)

The Chair

Ms. Joan Duncan

The Chair

¼

1800

Ms. Scherrer

The Chair

Ms. Joan Duncan

Dr. Bruce Kidd (Dean, Faculty of Physical Education and Health, University of Toronto; Chair, Canadian Sport Leadership Corps Committee, COMMONWEALTH Games Canada)

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ)

Dennis Mills

Dr. Bruce Kidd

¼

1805

¼

1810

The Chair

M. Robert Lanctôt

M. Dennis Mills

Mr. Joan Duncan

The Chair

M. Robert Lanctôt

Le président

M. Robert Lanctôt

¼

1815

Mr. Joan Duncan

M. Robert Lanctôt

Ms. Joan Duncan

¼

1820

M. Robert Lanctôt

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

M. Robert Lanctôt

Ms. Joan Duncan

M. Robert Lanctôt

Ms. Joan Duncan

¼

1825

Mr. Lanctôt

The Chair

Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Bras d'Or--Cape Breton, Lib.)

Ms. Diane Huffman (Director, International Sport Development, COMMONWEALTH Games Canada)

Dr. Bruce Kidd

Mr. Rodger Cuzner

Dr. Bruce Kidd

Ms. Joan Duncan

The Chair

Mr. MacKay

¼

1830

Dr. Bruce Kidd

Mr. MacKay

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

Ms. Joan Duncan

¼

1835

The Chair

Ms. Hélène Scherrer

Ms. Joan Duncan

Mme Hélène Scherrer

Ms. Joan Duncan

Ms. Hélène Scherrer

¼

1840

The Chair

Dr. Bruce Kidd

Ms. Joan Duncan

Mr. Dennis Mills

Mr. Marcil

Le président

Mme Hélène Scherrer

Dr. Bruce Kidd

¼

1845

Mr. Dennis Mills

M. Robert Lanctôt

Ms. Joan Duncan

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

Mr. Serge Marcil

¼

1850

Ms. Joan Duncan

Mr. Serge Marcil

Dr. Bruce Kidd

Ms. Joan Duncan

M. Serge Marcil

Dr. Bruce Kidd

¼

1855

M. Serge Marcil

The Chair

M. Robert Lanctôt

Ms. Joan Duncan

½

1900

M. Robert Lanctôt

The Chair

Mme Hélène Scherrer

The Chair

Mme Hélène Scherrer

The Chair

The Chair

Some hon. members

Ms. Joan Duncan

Le président

Mr. Serge Marcil

½

1905

Le président

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

M. Serge Marcil

The Chair

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

½

1910

Mme Scherrer

The Chair

Ms. Joan Duncan

Dr. Bruce Kidd

The Chair

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CANADA

Sub-Committee on the Study of Sport in Canada of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

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NUMBER 003

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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COMMITTEE EVIDENCE

Wednesday, February 20, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

»  (1755)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto--Danforth, Lib.)): Colleagues, it has been a strange day around here, but we're going to proceed.

    I apologize to our witnesses for not being able to begin right at 5:30 p.m. Our committee has a long history of starting on time, but the finance committee unfortunately ran into some challenges today.

    Just before we begin with our witnesses, I have to say to the committee that our last witnesses before Christmas were from Olympic Aid. Last week, I was in Salt Lake City, and I'm happy to report to you that Olympic Aid had a presence at many different venues. Actually, they had a presence at every venue, because they had a commercial on the large screen at every venue. In Medal Plaza, they had a presence. The Salt Lake Organizing Committee gave them tickets to sell, and the proceeds were to go to Olympic Aid. They had a very successful one-day conference on the day after the opening ceremonies, the first Saturday morning of the Olympics. Kofi Annan, Desmond Tutu, and Wayne Gretzky were there, and so was everybody else. Jacques Rogge, the president of the International Olympic Committee, committed that Olympic Aid would be part of the IOC's overall mandate. Madame Copps, Mr. Dhaliwal, Mr. De Villers, Robert, and I were all there, and I think the work of our committee in support of Olympic Aid had a very positive influence.

    Today, we celebrate our guests from COMMONWEALTH Games Canada. I will immediately turn the floor over to Ms. Duncan, and she can properly introduce herself and her colleague witnesses.

    Ms. Joan Duncan (Canadian Representative, Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting Committee on Cooperation through Sport; President, COMMONWEALTH Games Canada): Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have a PowerPoint presentation. It will take a minute or two to set it up.

    The Chair: No problem at all.

    Ms. Joan Duncan: Thank you.

    The Chair: I have to tell you, colleagues, that I wanted to stay in Salt Lake City for another week. Last Saturday, though, I received a call on my cell phone from Dr. Bruce Kidd, who is an extremely positive force in the city I represent. He has done a great deal of good work over the years, and continues to do that with amateur athletes. That's along with all the fine work he does at the University of Toronto. He said to me that it's important that we keep working on this file, so I just said I would come home right away.

    So I must say humbly that the reason we're back on the schedule is you, Bruce. You've always done much right across Canada for amateur sport, and we all appreciate it.

¼  (1800)  

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer (Louis-Hébert, Lib.): Is it possible to have you introduce our guests?

    The Chair: Ms. Duncan is going to introduce everyone.

    Ms. Joan Duncan: Certainly.

[Translation]

    Distinguished MPs and guests, I am Joan Duncan and I am President of COMMONWEALTH Games Canada.

    I would like to present my colleagues, who have a great deal of experience on the national and international scene and who will participate in this presentation: Dr. Bruce Kidd, Chair, Canadian Sport Leadership Corps Committee; Alex Gardiner, Chair, Commonwealth Sport Development Program Management Committee; and Diane Huffman, Director, International Sport Development.

    I would like to thank you for allowing us to make this presentation this evening.

    COMMONWEALTH Games Canada is an organization that uses sport as a development tool for people, communities and nations. We contribute to development through two programs: on the one hand, setting up Canadian teams for the Commonwealth Games; on the other hand, our International Sport Development program.

    The XVII^th Commonwealth Games will be held in Manchester, England, from July 28 to August 4 this year. More than 400 athletes, coaches and officials will represent Canada at these Games. These athletes are excellent ambassadors for sport and for Canada.

    We also have ambassadors who are currently working very hard in our International Sport Development program. It is especially about this program that we would like to talk to you tonight.

    COMMONWEALTH Games Canada has put in place, with many partners, a sport development program that contributes to our excellent reputation on the international scene. Moreover, this program contributes to the development of our young Canadians and allows exchanges with developing countries.

    The use of sport as a development tool by COMMONWEALTH Games Canada is not very well known here, but is very much appreciated by more than 30 countries. Our objective today is to make you aware of Canada's position, through COMMONWEALTH Games Canada, as a proactive leader in international sport development.

    I am asking for your support to get a financial commitment for CGC to continue its support in the development of international sport and to favour a statement by the Prime Minister at the CHOGM meetings from March 2 to March 5.

[English]

    I'd now like to turn the presentation over to Dr. Bruce Kidd, whose leadership role in international development and whose passion for sport and the good that it brings to all, are an inspiration to all of us in the sport community.

    Dr. Bruce Kidd (Dean, Faculty of Physical Education and Health, University of Toronto; Chair, Canadian Sport Leadership Corps Committee, COMMONWEALTH Games Canada): Thank you, Joan.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your very kinds words to me. I greatly appreciate them and the decision you made to meet with us today. I would also like to thank and applaud you and your colleagues on this committee for the leadership you have provided to sport in Canada, and for the hard work you have done to put sport on the agenda of the Government of Canada. The report that you prepared several years ago, Sport in Canada:Everybody's Business, has provided the entire Canadian sports community with a blueprint for the future. We are still working very hard to realize all of the objectives you set out. The programs I'm going to describe today are fully in keeping with the vision you created with this committee.

    Under the banner of the international Commonwealth Sport Development Program of COMMONWEALTH Games Canada, we conduct two closely linked programs: the ten-year old Commonwealth Sport Development Program, which contributes to social development through sport in Africa and the Caribbean; and the more recent Canadian Sport Leadership Corps, which provides outstanding graduates of Canadian university programs in kinesiology and physical education, as well as recently retired Canadian athletes, with the opportunity to give something back by volunteering in disadvantaged countries in order to provide better opportunities for sport and physical activity. Both these programs enhance social development in disadvantaged communities through the enriching challenges of sport and physical activity, and they strengthen Canada and Canadians in the process.

    Our goal in these programs—

    The Chair: Excuse me, Dr. Kidd, but I just want to inform my colleagues that this presentation is also in French.

    Colleagues, we've temporarily lost the feed. If it's suitable to you, though, we can proceed until we regain the feed.

[Translation]

    Do you agree with that?

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ): I have no problem.

    Dennis Mills: OK, let's go.

[English]

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: This program provides assistance at every step of the process of sport delivery, from strategic planning and capacity building, right down to the actual programming on the ground. In fact, more than 80% of the budget for this program goes directly to the programs operated at the grass roots.

    Canadian assistance is entirely needs-based. We don't go into Africa or the Caribbean to deliver a program, but to work with local leaders to create programs that address their specific needs, and we work for local sustainability. Under the difficult conditions that we face in these countries, we try as much as possible to enable them to continue these programs with their own resources. This approach—a uniquely Canadian approach in the area of social development through sport—has won us plaudits all around the world. It's the reason all fourteen countries in zone 6 of the Supreme Council of Sport in Africa have asked us for similar aid: because we respect the priorities and the cultures of the people we work with.

    We are currently working in three African countries, across a range of program areas. I will just briefly mention two of these programs.

    Several years ago, we started an aerobics program for pregnant women in Zimbabwe, in order to combat infant mortality and improve maternal health. That program has now been taken over completely by Zimbabwe's Sport and Recreation Commission, and it has grown by leaps and bounds to address very serious health issues in that country.

    Another program is a sports program for persons with a disability in Africa. It's the first national sports program of its kind ever started for such people.

    As you well know, the needs in these countries are extraordinary. Sport provides an inexpensive way to inspire hope and confidence and to deliver education and health. Sport is an extremely effective and inexpensive way of providing social development.

    Perhaps I can now briefly turn to the Caribbean. We have influenced community development in all of these countries through a range of programs that start with education and health and move right through to sport development. In the area of coaching development, I'm very pleased to tell you that the Caribbean Caucus of National OlympicCommittees recently agreed to assume complete responsibility for a coaching development program. It's modelled on the Canadian 3M National Coaching Certification Program, but is adapted to the Caribbean environment in order to enhance coaching development in those countries. In just ten years, we have moved from starting a program to complete sustainability with our partner.

    For the volunteers involved, it has been a tremendous experience. It provides satisfaction and the pride of making a difference in very needy communities. One volunteer who is currently in the Caribbean attests that it gives both recent university graduates and retired athletes involved—as well as the professionals—the opportunity to acquire skills and knowledge that will stand them in good stead in this increasingly globalized and diversified world. It is a tremendous education for citizenship in the world of the 21st century.

    The success of these programs has attracted many partners both internationally and in Canada. In several of these cases, international agencies have simply invested in what Canada has initiated, thereby extending the reach and impact of the programs. In Canada, we enjoy broad support from a number of other organizations.

¼  (1805)  

    We started these programs because we wanted to make a contribution, and we know from our direct experience that sports can help. My mother always taught me that if there's something I love, I should teach it to a friend. That's why I've stayed in sports all my life. Sports have enriched my life enormously, and they have given me knowledge and skills that have helped me in every challenge I've faced. Those of us who have been involved in these programs have sought to do just that for others around the world, but these programs have also delivered tremendous benefits to Canada. I'd like to take just a minute to point these out.

    The programs have given us international recognition as a progressive, humanitarian leader in the world, and as a leader of international sports. In the countries we have assisted, prime ministers, sports ministers, newspaper editors, readers of newspapers, listeners to radios, and viewers of television stations, know about the Canadian presence through these programs.

    The programs have also been extremely influential in persuading delegates at international sports meetings to support Canadian initiatives. They have been very powerful vote-getters at a time when it's harder to do the traditional lobbying to win international support in international sports organizations. People support us because they know our hearts are in the right place and that we support other countries through a spirit of altruism.

    Thirdly, they enormously strengthen Canadian expertise. I can tell you that my university, the University of Toronto, has stepped up its efforts to provide international learning and internship experiences for graduates of all of our faculties, because we believe that to prepare Canadians for the challenges of this century, they will have to have this international experience. But even with all the resources of the University of Toronto, we cannot provide programs of the richness, of the challenge, and of the variety of these programs. These are invaluable in developing young Canadians for the challenges they will face in the years ahead.

    I'm providing a photograph from a recent meeting of the Commonwealth Games Federation. We know we have the support of most of these men and women for Canadian initiatives, such as the proposal for the 2010 Winter Olympic Games in Vancouver-Whistler. We know the international sport development programs win us friends, and those friendships can translate into votes if we can continue to offer these programs in the years ahead.

    We need to consolidate what we have achieved so far, but we need to do much more work. We now have far more requests from young Canadians to serve overseas, and we can begin to address those. Last year, we sent out 10 volunteers, and we hope to send out 22 this year. We could easily send out more than 100 qualified Canadians to serve in this way if we had the appropriate resources. We have far more requests for internships for Canadians to serve in communities in the disadvantaged world than we have opportunities to provide. There is tremendous scope to increase these programs.

    Currently, we are receiving $2.88 million dollars over a five-year period to conduct these programs; a government contribution that leverages $3.5 million in volunteer support; and another $400,000 in this period from other contributors. We are requesting that we receive $5 million in public funding in the next period, and we're confident that we can leverage another $5 million from the voluntary sector and considerably more from our international partners. The head of UK Sport, for example, has told us that if we can grow the programs, he can increase his budget to support the Canadian programs in Africa and the Caribbean.

    Last year, the Canadian International Development Agency retained an independent consultant to evaluate the program, and as this quotation shows, “The program has proved to be highly cost-effective and represents good value for money.” So here's our pitch, and we're very grateful for your consideration. We seek your influence to ensure a stronger program, with a strong commitment from the Government of Canada for the budgets of this program.

¼  (1810)  

    Secondly—and this, Mr. Chair, is why I was so concerned when we spoke during that hockey game—we seek your good auspices to ensure that our Prime Minister says something about this program in Coolum next month, at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting. He has an opportunity to address the value of sport there, and to gain credit for the tremendous Canadian initiatives that have been taken so far, and for the tremendous Canadian contributions that have been made through the leadership of this program and the partnership between government and the voluntary sector.

    I have been told that Australian Prime Minister John Howard will try to claim credit for these initiatives throughout the Commonwealth, and I fear the Australians will once again take advantage of Canadian initiatives in order to move ahead of us in sport. I don't want to talk about what they've done over the last twenty years on the playing fields, I want to focus my attention on what's happening in the world of sport development. But Canada ought to get the credit it deserves, and we ought to signal to our Canadian partners, through our Prime Minister when he is in Australia next month, that they can count on Canadians for these important initiatives.

    So thank you very much for your time today. I'm here with colleagues directly involved in the programs and with a number of other people who have been involved as supporters. We would be very happy to answer your questions and respond to your comments.

    The Chair: Thank you very much, Dr. Kidd, Ms. Duncan.

[Translation]

    Mr. Lanctôt, do you have any questions

    M. Robert Lanctôt: I don't have many questions because what we are talking about is very similar to the Olympic Aid program, and I am familiar with the issue.

    I believe you are working with Olympic Aid, which is broader in scope than you are; I believe you concentrate on the Commonwealth Games.

    I see a lot of things here in English, but they are probably available in French also. Could you simply send us the same document so that I have the French; I would appreciate it. I simply make the request. If we have it already, everything is fine.

    M. Dennis Mills: We have the translation here.

    Mr. Joan Duncan: The document is available in both languages.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Clerk, could you please distribute the documents? Thank you.

[Translation]

    M. Robert Lanctôt: It is a right, not a priviledge.

    Le président: Absolutely. You are right. Continue.

    M. Robert Lanctôt: Thank you. I have already received it. You have very fast courrier pigeons.

¼  (1815)  

    Mr. Joan Duncan: Perhaps you could speak a little more slowly.

    M. Robert Lanctôt: I will therefore try to speak a little more slowly. I was thanking your courrier pigeon for having brought me the documents, which I have not yet looked at but that appear to be in French.

    You see, the language problem always arises when we try to understand each other, but we get there in the end.

    I would now like to ask about your program's financing. You spoke about CIDA and I think that Sport Canada and other government bodies such as Heritage Canada would probably participate. Do you have other sources? You spoke about the private sector. How important would its support be? I heard about $3.5 million. I also believe you would like a little more from the federal goverrnent , $5 million, and that you would like to get the same amount from the private sector. Is that correct?

[English]

    Ms. Joan Duncan: At this point in time, the matching funds that we're looking at are matched against what we have in volunteer contributions, so they're matching the $5 million that you see. We're hoping we will leverage $1 million from our other partners as well, including UK Sport and our partners in-country. Over this next five-year period, we also hope to look at some fund-raising initiatives in Canada that would also support this program.

¼  (1820)  

[Translation]

    M. Robert Lanctôt: Very well, but I would like precise figures. I may have written them down incorrectly earlier but I believed we were talking about $3.5 million. Is that correct? I understood that your current financing was $3.5 million.

[English]

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: We're currently getting $2.88 million from those two sources for the years 1998 through 2003.

    The Chair: Each year?

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: No, that's the total for the five years. We're asking for $5 million for five years. That's about $600,000 a year in the current five-year plan, and we're asking for $1 million a year in the next cycle.

    The Chair: Is it $1 million on top of the $600,000?

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: No.

    The Chair: Okay, it's a $400,000 increase.

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: That is correct.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Go ahead, Monsieur Lanctôt.

[Translation]

    M. Robert Lanctôt: Do you use exactly the same criteria to choose the countries we saw a while ago, such as Tanzania or other African countries? How do you choose? What are the criteria to help countries that the program wants to help? Who chooses and what are the criteria and objectives to do so?

[English]

    Ms. Joan Duncan: One of the primary criteria for the program is the state of readiness of the particular countries we're going into. One of the things we've learned is that although there is a huge need in many, many countries, if there isn't a base of a certain degree that we can actually work with, then it's very difficult to develop the capacities. That has therefore become the number one criteria, certainly.

    Secondly, we want to ensure that there are partners there who are very willing and wanting to work with us, that there will be resources coming in right from the beginning from those partners we're going to work with—the governments, the national Olympic committees, and other social agencies—and that they will commit in writing, right up front, to particular criteria related to sustainability.

    For example, when we started our program ten years ago, we started both in Africa and in the Caribbean. A Canadian went in and worked for the first five years of the program. In the second five years of the program, we did a transfer to local leadership. But there was not just a transfer to local leadership, there was also a reduction in the amount of funding we were providing to those particular areas. By the end of the five-year period, the local staff is therefore totally sustainable by current commitment. We do that with each of the programs, so we need that kind of commitment and intentionality from the partners we're going to work with.

    Those would be the top three.

[Translation]

    M. Robert Lanctôt: If I understand correctly, the fund is there to help start up a program or do things a certain way in a given country. Then the country takes over and runs it completely so that you don't have to be there permanently. If I understand correctly, that is the fund's purpose.

[English]

    Ms. Joan Duncan: Truly, and it will be totally sustainable by the country itself. As Bruce indicated earlier, any program that we do needs to be driven by the needs and identification of needs by that country. The aerobics program for pregnant women is a perfect example. We went in with that program when it was identified as a need in Zimbabwe. We worked on and started a single program in a single province, and we actually then had the health units come in really believing in this program, which is now being delivered by their nurses and administered through the health units. The program was so successful in one province that it has been replicated not by us, but by local leadership in Zimbabwe in the other ten provinces. It's a program to which we now continue to provide expertise and support, but it truly is a Zimbabwean program.

¼  (1825)  

[Translation]

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Thank you.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Cuzner.

    Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Bras d'Or--Cape Breton, Lib.): I'm just looking through the printed material. I think you'll certainly find concurrence that everybody appreciates that sport is a tremendous vehicle for development. I'm looking at some of the measurement tools you would use to assess just what type of impact your programs have. I see that some of the programs do identify particular numbers, but what are some of the aspects of measurement that you currently apply, and what are some of measurement tools that you apply to deem just how relative the success has been in particular programs?

    Ms. Diane Huffman (Director, International Sport Development, COMMONWEALTH Games Canada): The majority of the evaluation is presently done through participation numbers and the sustainability of the program or the capacity of people to continue it on their own, so that we not only have participants, but train people to be leaders. As we speak right now, a number of training programs are going on, with master trainers training their own people to then be in the community. So we have a number of people who are enabled to do the training, as well as the number of people they're touching from there. Those are the two main ways, but we're also looking at the efficiency, economically, of what it costs us when compared to the number of people we've touched. We're looking at the financial sustainability, as well as participation.

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: In both cases, we use CIDA's measures and CIDA's processes. In the case of the Canadian Sport Leadership Corps, we want to go beyond what CIDA asks and develop methods for long-term benefit. Currently, one of CIDA's measures for youth volunteer internship programs like this is employability. I can tell you that any university in Canada would have been happy to hire the twelve volunteers we sent abroad last September, before they went out, so we're not worried about employability. I'm not worried about the employability of the other hundred or so we turned down either, but that's all CIDA asked us for in that particular program. So with CIDA, we're looking at the development of more ambitious measures to look at the impact of these volunteers over time, but we're not there yet.

    Mr. Rodger Cuzner: I would think a lot of the anecdotal evidence that comes back from those who participate in that program would be truly rich, because at the entry level of the program, you're getting some people who are just starting at ground level. I imagine that would be—

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: I'd love to show you some of their reports. They're just heartwarming. They bring tears to your eyes. What they go through and what they learn in six months is just amazing.

    Ms. Joan Duncan: We also have some wonderful stories from the participants themselves in these various countries. If we had more time, we could bring you videos that have them on tape, talking about the impact of these programs on their lives.

    One of the programs we certainly can't claim credit for creating, but which we partner in, is the Mathare Youth Sports Association program in Kenya. I've been there to visit that program. Truly, you can walk through those slums in Mathare, and by their faces, you can tell which children are involved in the sports programs just by the way they carry themselves and how they feel about themselves. They will tell you about what the program has done for them.

    The Chair: Mr. MacKay.

    Mr. Peter MacKay (Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough, PC/DR): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I want to thank all of you—your executive and your membership—for being here and, more importantly, for the work you've done. We haven't had an opportunity to go through your brief in detail, but the work you have been doing not only enhances our reputation, it is clearly doing a lot of tangible good in other countries.

    With respect to those other countries, have decisions been made, or are there targeted countries that you're considering at this point in terms of expanding your mandate? Also, in terms of setting your working priorities, how are they established? Is a collective decision taken by the board? What factors into your decisions in terms of setting your programming priorities?

¼  (1830)  

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: There are a number of factors, like the ones Joan mentioned earlier on. They have to be candidates for viable programs, and they have to contractually undertake to do the things that will make those programs work. In the case of the Canadian Sport Leadership Corps, they have to undertake to provide a certain level of supervision, risk management, and so on, so that the health and well-being, as well as the education and intercultural experiences of our volunteers, are what we want delivered. We also look at the benefits to Canadian foreign policy and the benefits to Canadian sport policy, and we take those into consideration. Out of those factors, we have established priorities.

    As I said in my opening presentation, a long list of people would like to partner with us, and we want to be able to do that in the next phase. Because the Prime Minister and the Government of Canada have set a goal for contributing to the revitalization of Africa, and particularly southern Africa, we think this is an area to put expanded resources into. We will only do that, though, if we can mount viable programs and get the kind of undertaking from the host countries that would be acceptable.

    Mr. Peter MacKay: The program that you've mentioned or highlighted in your presentation—the aerobics for pregnant women—seems brilliant in its simplicity, if I can put it that way. I'm wondering how these programs originate. What are the sources for these original ideas?

    And as a follow-up question with respect to the health benefits, you have clearly outlined the synergy between sport or involvement in athletic activity and the health benefits that flow from that involvement. I would like to ask you about partnerships, specifically with regard to early intervention with youth at risk and any involvement you might have or intend to have with the law enforcement community. In Canada, I know we're quite active in involving and targeting youth at risk for athletic programs. Is that in the works? Is it part of your overall plan as well?

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: Yes—and I know Joan wanted to answer the first part of your question, so I'll be brief here.

    One of the African programs that we developed in conjunction with our host partners is the YES program, which means Youth Education through Sport. It's directed at youth at risk particularly for HIV/AIDS, but also for other risks. As you have indicated, we believe participation in sport not only produces individual benefits, but also community benefits. One of those community benefits is safer communities.

    The Chair: Ms. Duncan.

    Ms. Joan Duncan: You asked about how the ideas get generated. The beauty of this program is that the ideas are generated by the recipients and the people we're working with. That aerobics program for women came from the women in that community who identified that need. We then took our Canadian expertise, thought about what kinds of things we had, talked to them about those things, and developed the program.

    I'll tell you one of the things we have learned through our time. When we went into the program in our first five years, we had this idea that we were going to do programs, and that when programs were successful, we would replicate them throughout Africa, throughout the Caribbean, etc. The Mathare Youth Sports Association is just an absolutely incredible program. Because we had a lot of exciting programs like it, we wanted to replicate it throughout Africa and take it to the Caribbean. Very quickly though, Tommy Sithole, who is from Zimbabwe, said Zimbabwe is not Kenya, Harare is not Mathare, and those kinds of things. We could see the need for these things that really looked at the youth at risk, but we had to really listen, and what we heard was that they don't want somebody else's program.

    We've really learned now that it's about the principle. What are the principles that made the aerobics program work? What are the underlying principles that we need with youth at risk? If youth at risk are identified as a concern in Harare, we then need to take those principles and talk to the people there about those youth at risk and about those principles.

    The people in Zimbabwe right now would say there are no similarities between their Youth Education through Sport program and the program in place in Mathare. However, if we sat here and presented those two programs to you today, you would see the common threads that run through them. So the youth at risk have probably been the greatest focus of our programs at this point in time, because we are hearing the concern about HIV/AIDS everywhere in Africa.

    In the Caribbean, interestingly, it's not HIV/AIDS, it's drugs. Diane can tell some wonderful stories about the concerns there. It used to be the athletes—and we know the strength of the athletes coming out of the Caribbean. They were the heroes the people wanted as role models. Now it's the drug lords, because drugs are where the money comes from and where they see a way out. It's not sport any longer, it's a different means.

¼  (1835)  

[Translation]

    The Chair: Ms. Scherrer.

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer: Pardon my ignorance, but I would like to know about your links with the Commonwealth Games as an entity. I see here that we are always talking about the Commonwealth Games and this is a sport development program. What is the link between the two organizations? Are the same people in charge? Which came first?

[English]

Which one created the other one?

    Ms. Joan Duncan: COMMONWEALTH Games Canada is the franchise holder or the owner of two programs, including the program of Commonwealth Games teams. We put together and organize teams. When we hold the Commonwealth Games in Canada, we have the teams here.

    In 1991, when the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting declaration was issued with respect to the value of development of sport, Canada took the lead role and was the first country to commit dollars to sport. They came back and were looking for someone to execute programs and someone who knew something about the Commonwealth. They asked us, as an organization, if we would take on this program.

    We did take on the program. To start with, it began as this little project that we gave an office to and that we kind of supported, but it was really there because it had CIDA dollars, etc. But as we saw the program grow and saw the value of the program, our members became incredibly committed to the whole value of sport and sport development. Five years ago, when we were restating our vision and mission, we actually changed the whole vision of the organization to one that said our organization was here to develop individuals, communities, and nations through sport. We do that through two programs: our games program and our international sport program.

    At this point in time, our organization and the members of the organization just can't envision one part of our mandate without the other. The commitment of the athletes who are in our program and who want to be a part of this program is incredible, as is that of the volunteers. They feed off each other and support each other, and it's truly exciting.

[Translation]

    Mme Hélène Scherrer: When the Commonwealth Games are held in Canada, is the budget you ask for reserved exclusively for the development program and have nothing to do with holding the Games here?

[English]

    Ms. Joan Duncan: That's true. This is just for the international program. Our budget for the games team is totally separate from that. It's supported through Sport Canada.

[Translation]

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer: Here is my last question. We are talking about a fairly significant budget. How do you itemize your budget? Is it salary expenses? Administration fees? What is so expensive in this program? If you call on volunteers, on existing equipment and on people who are on site, what is so expensive?

¼  (1840)  

[English]

    The Chair: If these people are volunteers, where does the money go?

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: Sending volunteers to Africa and the Caribbean, training them, giving them a living stipend, bringing them back to Canada, debriefing them, and so on, costs something. They're not getting a salary. Most of them—I hope—will be able to live on what we've given them this year. Some of them may spend a little bit of their own money to live at a slightly higher...but what we're paying is costly.

    In terms of the other programs, we're providing program expenses. We're providing a variety of forms of sport assistance. We have twelve volunteers in the field for $600,000 a year. I think that's considerable.

    Ms. Joan Duncan: If we speak about a couple of examples of the programs that I've told you about, first of all, when we put staff in the field, it depends at what stage that occurs. If you put a Canadian in the field at the beginning of a program—which we would do if we were going into a new country—that includes getting that Canadian to that country, paying for their living expenses, providing their salary, and all of those kinds of things. As we move throughout the program, of course, things are done once they're there.

    All of our programs are doing what I like to look at as seed funding. If we took the aerobics program for women as an example, it involved working with people in Zimbabwe to develop the materials and to train the individuals to be trainers. In the beginning, the majority of the expenses for that would have come from Canadian dollars. In that program initially, the contributions from the recipients included providing the space for us to do it and helping some of their people get to the meetings. They would get them to the meetings, but we would then realize that these people hadn't had anything to eat for x number of days, so that very quickly became a priority for us. If we were bringing people in for two days, we had to make sure they had good meals during that period of time.

    There's the development of the actual materials, or getting them up and running for the first time. As we turn these things over to these countries, hopefully they'll be in such a state that they can continue to replicate them, etc. And for each program, the expenses would be different.

    As Bruce said, there's also a cost because we're bringing expertise in. One of the things the CIDA dollars will not allow us to do.... If we had expertise in Zimbabwe—which we now have—and we wanted to do a program in Botswana, Namibia, or the Caribbean, we could not use CIDA dollars to send those trainers to Botswana, Namibia, or the Caribbean, because the dollars can only be spent on Canadian expertise. That's one of the restrictions we have in the program. One of the reasons for the dollars from the U.K. and Norway, where we're partnering, is that they don't have those restrictions. We partner so that we can use some of their dollars to bring in local expertise.

[Translation]

    Mr. Dennis Mills: Mr. Marcil.

[English]

    Mr. Serge Marcil (Beauharnois--Salaberry, Lib.): I'll come back.

[Translation]

    Le président: Do you have any other questions, Ms. Scherrer?

    Mme Hélène Scherrer: As my colleague mentioned, you resemble Olympic Aid a lot. Have you ever thought about merging with that organization or are thre specific things that Olympic Aid does not have? It seems to me that the two organizations have the same objective and similar financing. Are you really that far apart?

[English]

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: We love Olympic Aid. I certainly work very closely with them. My faculty has contributed to the research that enabled them to operate in the last phase. We have encouraged our undergraduate and graduate students to work with them. I'm full of admiration for their leaders—Johann Olav Koss, Ann Peel,and so on—but we work in different ways and I think we have different long-term objectives. This is a program that aims to enhance Canada as well as the disadvantaged world. Olympic Aid is a terrific program that focuses upon children in refugee camps, but the visibility, the branding, and the exposure are around the Olympic movement.

    I don't apologize for the fact that I'm a proud Canadian. I think there's Canadian expertise here, and I think Canada should get credit for these tremendous investments. I also think we should privilege Canadians in the experience we provide.

    So we have friendly relations, we're supportive, and so on, but we have slightly different projects, both in terms of the larger identifications and in terms of where to work. So, as I say, we exchange and we support, but we're different. Ours is a made-in-Canada program to provide social development assistance abroad, but also to enhance Canada, and we're very proud of that.

¼  (1845)  

[Translation]

    Mr. Dennis Mills: Mr. Lanctôt.

    M. Robert Lanctôt: I still don't see the difference. I asked a question and I didn't really get an answer. I would like you to explain it to me. It's probably that I don't understand very quickly, but I would like to ask my colleagues if they understand the precise difference. Other than the fact that we are working in a refugee camp, I don't see the difference.

[English]

    Ms. Joan Duncan: I think one of the significant differences is that the Olympic Aid program is focused on delivering the programs and providing the opportunities. Those are the end results of our program, but a lot of our time and energy goes into building the local leadership and capacity, and into building the sports systems and structures to support those activities and initiatives. Just because of the systems and structures of the refugee camps, they're not in a similar situation. We've worked with the Sport and Recreation Commission in Zimbabwe in order to strengthen that whole organization so that it has the capacity to better administer and deliver all of its programs throughout the country, a few of which are programs that we've helped them to initiate.

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: And remember, the needs are so great that Olympic Aid could increase its programming by tenfold and we could increase our programming by tenfold, and we still would not begin to address the needs of Africa alone.

    The Chair: Just before we go to Monsieur Marcil, my own view on this is that both programs are equally important and that there are strengths in both of them. If I could dare to put my thoughts forward as an independent chair, I don't think we should do anything to diminish in any way, shape, or form, the commitment, the passion, or the accomplishments of either organization. As parliamentarians—I'm subject to the committee—I think it's our responsibility, when we have special programs like this, to support them with all the energy we can muster. We shouldn't in any way, shape, or form, pit one against the other in terms of one getting less or one getting more. If we can find the good people to do the good work, it's our job to go out there to find the dough.

    Monsieur Marcil.

[Translation]

    Mr. Serge Marcil: I don't know if you have heard of it, but there was a program in Brazil; through soccer, we intervened at the level of street kids and managed to reintegrate them socially.

    The difference between the two organizations is that yours is a Canadian progam whereas Olympic Aid is an international one since a lot of countries intervene and invest in the program per se.

    This program transfers social values that are a little different and we also find Canadian values in this program through this approach.

    I would like to know what criteria you use and what type of volunteers you recruit. Are they people with university backgrounds? Do you recruit in terms of various areas of specialization? How do you train them before sending them out in the field?

¼  (1850)  

[English]

    Ms. Joan Duncan: It is different between the two programs. In the internship program, it's very much recent graduates from university and recently retired athletes. In the broader program, in which we're building the capacity, we're using a broad variety of Canadians. We have university professors who have taken their sabbaticals and have volunteered to spend their time there, at their own expense for living, etc. We may have a particular coach with an expertise that is needed in an area, and we send them.

    We really look at the total Canadian community and sport, and once the need has been identified by the countries and programs we're working in, we do our best at going across Canada to find the best person to match. To date, we've never had an individual say no when we've talked to them about the program and asked them to volunteer their time. Everyone has always said they would be delighted, and they have come back to this program absolutely committed to building the program and telling their colleagues about it.

[Translation]

    Mr. Serge Marcil: There we intervene almost exclusively in Anglophone countries, obviously because of the program's link to the Commonwealth Games. Is there, in terms of the Francophonie, an organization with the same goals?

[English]

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: We're committed to providing placements for francophone interns from all parts of Canada, and to putting them in francophone Africa and other parts of the French-speaking world. In fact, two of our volunteers this year are just winding up their experience in Tanzania, where they are working in refugee camps where the dominant European language is French.

    So although the structure of the Commonwealth Games include only English-speaking countries, we recognize that there are francophone Canadians who want these opportunities, and we're committed to providing opportunities for them.

    Ms. Joan Duncan: Just so you know, given the fact that we are a Commonwealth organization, we had the discussion at our board of directors' table about whether or not we should expand or would expand. It became very clear to us that we can't go into a region, particularly when we're already working in a region, and say we'll only work in Commonwealth countries. Our board has had this discussion, and it is committed to providing our services based on need.

[Translation]

    M. Serge Marcil: I had the priviledge of working in Africa, in Senegal. There are 500,000 children between the ages of 4 and 15 that we call urchins or street kids, and we have developed literacy programs for these children as well as a health program. Obviously there is a lot of volunteer work. We also tried through sport, through soccer in fact, because most... There are no girls on the street. There are only boys. So through soccer we tried to integrate them and teach them to read and write in order to be able to introduce them in neighbourhood teams and so on. Is that an approach that could be presented to you and that you could use in a Francophone country such as Senegal?

[English]

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: Yes, and several of the existing programs that we support or deliver work very much on that idea of linking sport to primary and secondary school, to environmental clean-up, to the inclusion of girls and women. In the Mathare Youth Sports Association soccer league, the teams can win points, but they can't win all their points on the soccer field. They also get points for full attendance at school, for environmental clean-up, for having women's teams, and so on. The excitement of sport is a carrot, I guess, in order to deliver some of these other programs.

    On the point you have made and that your colleague has made, we're just skimming the surface of addressing the needs that are out there. The first world could send 5,000 or 10,000 volunteers like our young Canadians throughout the developing world, and they would not be sitting around with nothing to do. They would still be working pretty well around the clock, seven days a week, to meet these needs. We just didn't stress that in our presentation, because you know this stuff as well as we do. There is an absolutely desperate need out there, and although this won't be the sole response, this can be part of the response to those needs.

    We're starting with the people we know because of the avenues we've forged through the Commonwealth Games. We're starting with the countries we know, but there are many more countries in need. We are committed to branching out and making partnerships in other parts of Africa, in the Caribbean, and so on.

¼  (1855)  

[Translation]

    M. Serge Marcil: Thank you very much.

[English]

    The Chair: Colleagues, we have a few minutes, but we'd like to end the meeting around 7 p.m.

    Robert.

[Translation]

    M. Robert Lanctôt: I see that there is good will. That's not the problem. The problem is always resources.

    You tell us you don't have enough resources. Up to now, you have worked in Anglophone countries and you now want to work also in Francophone countries. The problem is that you don't have enough money to do what you started.

    You have a nice theory but in paractice I am very very confused. It's nice to hear your response to my colleague Mr. Marcil. You say you are going to try to put trainees in Francophone countries, but you are already short of resources. Are those simply words to show once again that it's OK or is that your real aim even though you are short of money?

[English]

    Ms. Joan Duncan: As I said, I think this program did start out of a Commonwealth initiative, and the dollars were dedicated by the government for a Commonwealth initiative. We had two blocks of funding for five-year funding. The first program, as I said, was the Commonwealth initiative. As we went to the second phase, we knew that if we pulled out of those programs now and went to new places, the sustainability of the existing programs would not have happened.

    After ten years in the countries and regions that we've been in, we're now in a position to want to reach out to new countries, as we said. As we do that, we will definitely make it a priority to reach out to francophone countries as well as to anglophone countries.

    Also, there's the Canadian Sport Leadership Corps program, which is in its first year. Right now, the first interns are just coming back. Again, because we've never run an internship program before and we wanted to ensure that our interns had the support they needed while we learned—because we have been learning during this first year—for the most part, we put our interns into countries and related programs in which we had already built the capacity to support them. We feel we're now in a much better position to understand the types of leadership we need inside those countries, and we feel very comfortable.

    We did the extension to Tanzania because we knew we had the resources through the United Nations and through Olympic Aid. But I think we've now learned the kinds of things we need to know, and I can tell you that we've made approaches to Jean Gandubert, in the Secretary of State's office. We know he is very familiar with the francophone countries in Africa, and we hope he can help us to try to identify specific programs—and leaders within those programs—into which we could place interns.

    One of the things about the intern programs is that the applications must be derived from those countries, so we need your assistance. We need the assistance of francophones and the people who are working in francophone countries in order to help us to identify them and encourage the applications for the programs.

½  (1900)  

[Translation]

    M. Robert Lanctôt: The last time we adopted a resolution about Olympic Aid and we will probably do the same in this case. Mr. Chair, why not create something similar to the Commonwealth Games stricly for the Francophonie and both could have one overseer? Then there would be no confusion or infighting. We wouldn't say that we give more to such and such an Anglophone country than to the Francophonie. That would smooth out the situation. We would create another entity to help Francophone countries from a humanitarian point of view.

[English]

    The Chair: Robert, if I could attempt to answer that, the clerk has given me a motion that I'd like to read to the committee. I feel that if the committee accepts this motion, your concern will be addressed.

    The motion reads:

That the Chair be authorized to write to the Prime Minister on behalf of the Sub-Committee to request that the Prime Minister announce Canada’s commitment to the continuation of the Commonwealth Games Association of Canada’s International Sport Development Program at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in March, 2002.

    Of course, we know the Prime Minister would be extremely sensitive to making sure the Francophonie countries, etc., are included in that commitment.

[Translation]

    Mme Hélène Scherrer: Mr. Chair, would it not be pertinent to also include the new Secretary of State for Africa?

[English]

    The Chair: Absolutely.

[Translation]

    Mme Hélène Scherrer: I think it is a nice project for him. I believe he would be very interested in that. It would be a good idea to keep him informed about what is going on in this regard.

[English]

    The Chair: Yes, absolutely. We must remember that it is a CIDA program, but I think our witnesses were absolutely correct in recognizing that the Prime Minister has declared publicly, not only March, but also in August, that South Africa is his special priority. I think giving him more instruments to make sure this vision of his is filled out is only appropriate, so that's not a problem, Madame Scherrer.

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Chair: And $5 million is enough?

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    Ms. Joan Duncan: Never, but we'll start with that.

[Translation]

    Le président: Mr. Marcil.

    Mr. Serge Marcil: This is a good opportunity because the main theme of the G8 summit this summer is Africa. Through the act that was adopted Monday we have already set up the fund for Africa, so there are possibilities.

    I would also like to tell Robert that international aid knows no language. International aid means free gifts from one county or another, free in the sense that nothing is asked for in return. TheCommonwealth Games structure has existed for many yars whereas the first Jeux de la Francophonie were held in Morroco if memory serves. I was an MP in the National Assembly in Quebec at the time.

    So I think there is a way, not to create a new entity, but to integrate or develop a more international approach without distinguishing language, culture and so on. I think we should move towards that instead of multiplying structures.

     I'm sorry, but I wasn't familiar with that organization. I knew about the Commonwealth Games but I didn't know that organization. We met the other organization earlier. I would have preferred to meet our Canadian organization before the other one, but what do you want... I don't think the two are competing. Olympic Aid has more financing because of the involvement of olympic athletes who, for their own country, manage to get money. I am thinking especially about the chair of that committee, who had won four gold medals for Norway in skating. So then it was easier to get the ball rolling and collect a significant amount of money for Norway.

    I believe we should try to integrate the structures instead of multiplying them. I think there is an opportunity to do so because our Secretay of State for the Francophonie is also Secretary of State for Africa and South America. So we can also reach those two countries.

½  (1905)  

    Le président: Mr. Lanctôt.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: I agree with Mr. Marcil, but it's the title that bothers me. It's not that I don't like you calling it the Commonwealth Games Association of Canada, but it looks strange. It's as though it was only Anglophones who are helping. Francophone money also pays for what you are asking but it comes from the Commonwealth Games Association of Canada. Maybe it just needs a name change because it looks a little strange.

    M. Serge Marcil: Most African countries are almost bilingual, just like Canada, who participates in the Commonwalth Games but also in the Jeux de la Francophonie. There are many African countries that participate in both.

[English]

    The Chair: Thank you, gentlemen.

    Bruce, you have time for a short intervention, and then we're going to adjourn. Before we adjourn, though, I'm going to give you a little advice on how we can get this over the line.

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: That would be terrific.

    Just in response to the last exchange, let me first point out that we are not in competition with Olympic Aid or other organizations that are doing this—

    The Chair: We understand.

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: —so moving toward a larger, umbrella-type organization would be something we'd fully support.

    With respect to the Commonwealth Games, another point needs to be mentioned here in terms of our history. The Commonwealth Games became a very important arena in which Canada expressed both its opposition to apartheid and its leadership of the international anti-apartheid campaign. It was the place in the international sports world in which the values of inclusion for all, regardless of pigmentation and so on, became expressed.

    At the end of that long and difficult campaign, our colleagues, our comrades in that campaign, said to us that Canada had been very helpful in bringing apartheid to its knees and overthrowing the apartheid regime, but that's not where they want to leave it. They now want to rebuild their societies. Our colleagues in sports have asked us to please help them rebuild the programs in sport. It was for that reason that COMMONWEALTH Games Canada became the logical place for those people to turn in order to take the next steps. If there had been other organizations available at the time, maybe we would have turned to them, but because COMMONWEALTH Games Canada was so supportive of this worldwide movement to bring about justice to the people of Africa, it was the logical organization to take the next step. I therefore think we should thank them and be proud of their leadership in this. They have represented Canada extremely well.

    The Chair: That's an excellent point, and we do salute you. You can see that the consensus to support the project took less than a half a second, so we will do our part.

    Now, here's what you have to do. You have to help us make sure we get to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, who is a very important player in this decision. We should also make sure we get to the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport.

½  (1910)  

[Translation]

    Mme Hélène Scherrer: And the Minister for International Cooperation.

[English]

    The Chair: Yes, we should get to Madame Whelan as well, since she is responsible for CIDA.

    You can tell them all that our committee supports you. We'll do our part, but I know your reputation is well-known and that you have lots of friends in Parliament and in the cabinet of Canada. Please collaborate with us and do your part in advocating your cause with them as well. Hopefully we'll all be successful at the end of the day.

    Ms. Joan Duncan: Thank you very much.

    Dr. Bruce Kidd: Thank you.

    The Chair: This meeting is adjourned.