SPOR Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Sub-Committee on the Study of Sport in Canada of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, May 22, 2002

¹

1535

The Chair (Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.))

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

¹

1540

¹

1545

¹

1550

The Chair

Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

¹

1555

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ)

º

1600

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

º

1605

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

The Chair

Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, Lib.)

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

º

1610

Mr. Rodger Cuzner

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Rodger Cuzner

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Ms. Hélène Scherrer (Louis-Hébert, Lib.)

º

1615

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Ms. Hélène Scherrer

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Ms. Hélène Scherrer

The Chair

Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP)

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Dick Proctor

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

º

1620

Mr. Dick Proctor

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Dick Proctor

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Dick Proctor

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

º

1625

Mr. Dick Proctor

The Chair

Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.)

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. John Harvard

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. John Harvard

The Chair

Mr. Chuck Strahl

º

1630

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

º

1635

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Chuck Strahl

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

º

1640

The Chair

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Mr. Dick Proctor

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Dick Proctor

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Dick Proctor

º

1645

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Mr. Dick Proctor

The Chair

Mr. Rodger Cuzner

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Ms. Hélène Scherrer

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Ms. Hélène Scherrer

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Ms. Hélène Scherrer

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

Ms. Hélène Scherrer

The Chair

Mr. John Harvard

º

1650

The Chair

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Mr. DeVillers (Simcoe North)

The Chair

Mr. Robert Lanctôt

An hon. member

The Chair

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CANADA

Sub-Committee on the Study of Sport in Canada of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage

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NUMBER 004

l

1st SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Wednesday, May 22, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1535)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Dennis Mills (Toronto—Danforth, Lib.)): Minister, welcome to the sport committee of the House of Commons. This is a bit of a historic day for us. First of all, it's your first formal appearance in front of the committee, and you're here bringing us good news. For first time in many years, the sport community of Canada will have a piece of legislation that we can debate, promote, and put through the House of Commons, hopefully before the summer recess.

    I turn the floor over to you.

    Hon. Paul DeVillers (Secretary of State (Amateur Sport)): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be here for, as you say, the first time.

    Basically, what we have before us is Bill C-54, which is the draft bill that has been produced after much consultation. I know you're aware of that, Mr. Chair, having chaired the subcommittee that led to a lot of the changes that we've had in our sporting community. We acknowledge that contribution made by you and the sporting community.

    That brings us to the question of why we would replace the present legislation, the Fitness and Amateur Sport Act. As you know, that legislation dated back to 1961. It was therefore time for a review, and we decided to repeal that bill and replace it with the present legislation. This was done to position physical activity as a crucial determinant of health. Much of the research has indicated that there are direct results from physical activity, and that it leads to health benefits. This was therefore one of the main motivators.

    We're also responding to the expectations of the sporting community. After all of the consultation that was done through this process, we determined that the sporting community was obviously seeking modernized and harmonized legislation. This had been the case and has been done in other countries, so I think it's time Canada advances along that line.

    It's also an opportunity to entrench the government's objectives on sport and physical activity. The other main component of the bill, as you'll be aware, is the introduction of alternative dispute resolutions in sport centres. This bill creates the Sport Dispute Resolution Centre of Canada.

[Translation]

    First of all, federal commitments are in response to the Mills Report of 1998 to which I alluded. After the report was released, the position of Secretary of State for Amateur Sport was created. My predecessor, Mr. Coderre, was appointed in 1998. Pan-Canadian consultations on sport were also held between 1998 and 2000. The Speech from the Throne in 2001 alluded to new government policies in the area of sport and fitness. The year 2001 also saw the National Summit on Sport which brought together the sport community. The Summit was chaired by the Prime Minister.

[English]

    One of the key changes being introduced is the new title, which I'll refer to in a moment. We're removing the reference to “fitness”, referring instead to “physical activity”. Physical activity is the process, whereas fitness is the result. We've also removed the qualifier “amateur” in referring to sport.

    We have also included a preamble that contains four key messages. We further describe the government's policies for physical activity and sport, in clauses 3 and 4, I believe. There's a refining of the mandate of the minister responsible for sport. It includes some of the tasks that were outlined in the previous act, but adds new ones to that in clause 5. And as I said earlier, it provides for the creation of the Sport Dispute Resolution Centre of Canada.

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[Translation]

     As I mentioned, the title of the legislation has been changed to the Physical Activity and Sport Act. The notion of fitness is replaced by that of physical activity. Furthermore, the expression “amateur sport” is replaced by the word “sport”.

    The world has changed considerably since 1961 and professional athletes are now competing in the Olympics. Elite athletes receive compensation for competing in events, even if they have not officially turned professional. Moreover, until now, the burden of being a professional rested squarely on the shoulders of athletes. For example, persons like the Zamboni driver devote their entire life to sport in arenas across the country, but they are not labelled professionals or amateurs. No other country distinguishes between amateurs and professionals.

[English]

    In the preamble, we're recognizing the importance of physical activity and sport in Canadian society and culture. There is an increased awareness of the benefits of physical activity and the practice of sport, as I indicated earlier. One of the goals of the legislation and of the government is to try to encourage greater participation by individuals in both physical activity and in sports. We are also attempting to encourage cooperation among levels of government.

[Translation]

    As noted already, the aim of the government's physical activity policy is to promote physical activity, encourage Canadians to improve their health by making physical activity a part of their daily lives and reduce barriers preventing Canadians from being active.

    The aim of the sport policy is to increase participation in sport, support excellence, build capacity and encourage cooperation among the various levels of government. Emphasis is put on such basic principles as high ethical standards and values and a fair, equitable and transparent ADR system.

[English]

    We're refining the ministerial mandate. As I indicated, some of the items contained in clause 5 were in the previous legislation. However, the clause also expands that mandate to incorporate the principles for the new Canadian sports policy and action plan, and the new emphasis on encouraging the promotion of physical activity. We thus encourage the promotion of sport as a tool for individual and social development in Canada and other countries.

    In that regard, sport is an important tool. The World Conference on Women and Sport took place just last weekend in Montreal. I was able to have several bilateral meetings with ministers of sport from African countries and South America. We are exploring the possibility of using sport as a tool for development in other countries.

    We'll encourage the private sector to contribute financially to sport. That's another component of the Canadian sports policy. The action plan is to encourage innovative ways of getting the private sector to contribute to financing in sport and physical activity.

    The bill facilitates the participation of under-represented groups in the Canadian sports system. You'll see in the legislation that reference is made to encouraging under-represented groups without listing. I think that's an issue that has created some controversy; however, when one endeavours just to list groups, there is always the danger of leaving someone off the list. It was therefore thought best just to refer to “all Canadians” and “under-represented Canadians” in order to make sure we are inclusive and include everyone.

    The bill will encourage the provincial and territorial governments to promote and develop sport, and there's a provision in it to allow bilateral agreements and pilot projects with various provinces as they come forward. As a matter of fact, we have already received a couple of proposals from different provinces in areas of provincial jurisdiction. They're requesting involvement on our level in terms of financing assistance, etc.

    We coordinate federal initiatives and efforts regarding the Canada Games, which are specifically referred to. They're the only games referred to in the act. Because of the traditional importance of the Canada Games, it was felt advisable to put them specifically into the act.

    And we encourage and support dispute resolution for sport.

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[Translation]

    Why create a Dispute Resolution Centre? We've observed that the number of disputed cases is on the increase. Current mechanisms alone cannot do the job. At present, when a dispute arises, the parties must go before the courts. This is a costly, time-consuming process. Often, sporting events or games are scheduled for a particular date. An athlete may want to be put on a team for a given event, but his case may drag on in the courts for two or three years. The courts serve no useful purpose in such cases. The athletes that we talked to were quite clear in wanting a centre like this to be established.

[English]

    The mission and structure of the centre will be to provide a national ADR service to the sport community, as well as expertise and assistance in the area. There will be a research component to the centre as well. The board of directors will manage the affairs and business of the centre. The bill provides for no more than twelve directors, including the executive director. The executive director will ensure responsibility for the direction and management of the day-to-day operations of the centre. The centre will contain the dispute resolution secretariat and the resource centre, which would be the research branch.

[Translation]

    With respect to the centre's arm's length relationship with the government, I should point out that the centre is neither an agent of Her Majesty, nor a departmental corporation or Crown corporation. Arbitrators and mediators are not employees of the centre. Care is taken to ensure that the centre maintains a proper arm's length relationship with the government.

[English]

    At the same time, we have to arrive at the balance between the control and accountability measures of the centre. It needs to be seen to be independent from the government, but it is also accountable because we're dealing with taxpayers' dollars. The executive director of the centre, the board of directors, and the chairperson are appointed by the minister after consultation. It's very clearly specified that there will be consultation, and there are guidelines and criteria to be followed in appointing various persons throughout the system.

    There will be a requirement for an audit committee of the board of directors. Audited reports and financial reports are also required. The corporate plan and the annual report will both need to be filed with the minister, and they will be made public thereafter. There is also a requirement for an annual public meeting of the centre. In the event that the centre is deemed to be out of control, there's provision for the dissolution of the centre by the minister, under certain terms.

    So those are the accountability aspects of the centre, when I say we try to arrive at a balance between the independence necessary for the credibility of the centre and accountability for tax dollars.

    I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair, and I look forward to committee members' questions.

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    The Chair: Thank you very much, Minister.

    Mr. Strahl, welcome to the committee. It's nice to see you here. Would you like to begin questions?

    Mr. Chuck Strahl (Fraser Valley, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's good to be here. I have just a couple of questions to start it off.

    There are several purposes and a lot of words about promotion and so on in terms on the fitness side. What portion of the funding do you anticipate would go toward countering Canada's obesity problems and lack-of-fitness problems, and what portion would go toward what Canadians may see as the elite athlete programs and so on? Do you have any kind of breakdown?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: At this point, we haven't reached the budgetary side of it. Sport Canada presently operates under a budget. I can say that we have recently had confirmation that there will be increases in our budgetary process. We don't have specific figures at this point, but we do have a commitment that there will be an increase in the budget. The estimate on the total cost of the ADR centre is $1 million, so that will be something that will be contributed for the benefit of the sports community at large and for athletes specifically.

    As far as the breakdown between participation, physical activity, and the elite athlete is concerned, that's a matter of programming. Those decisions will be made on a case-by-case basis as proposals come forward. Presently, there are three general envelopes in Sport Canada. Money is paid directly to carded athletes under the athlete assistance program; money is paid to the national sports organizations and they divide it between supporting elite athletes and their participation programs; and money is provided for the international hosting program. That's the breakdown now, and the hosting varies from year to year, depending on what Canada happens to be hosting. That funding depends on whether those games qualify for or meet the criteria for the program.

    So it's very difficult to say exactly at this point, but the sports policy doesn't say it's one over the other. These are four equal planks. Increased participation and improved excellence are equal in their prioritization in the policy.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: I'm just wondering how that will be determined, because as we've seen again this morning in the newspaper, folks are saying there should be an increased emphasis on gender equity, for example. Some people—Diane Francis, for one—would argue that we spend too much on the Games of la Francophonie and don't provide enough support for Olympic athletes. In other words, there are priorities. Everyone has a different priority. I assume you have your own as well, Minister. I'd just like to know if…. Is it $190 million? I don't know what your budget's going to be ...

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: I'll settle for that.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: Okay, but I'm not sure what portion of it…like you say, it's covered in several programs right now. Whatever it is, I'm just wondering how you determine where you spend those rare dollars. The Olympic athletes say they need more, and the Games of la Francophonie gobble up a pile of it. I don't know if those are under your....

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: No, that money is from Official Languages. It's out of another department of Canadian Heritage, not from Sport Canada.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: And the Canadian Medical Association would say we need something to target kids who are getting too fat. So how do you determine what gets the most?

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    Mr. Paul DeVillers: As I've already said, these are equal priorities in the sports policy. On the physical activity side, I've already had discussions with the Minister of Health. One of her priorities is to increase the fitness level of Canadians as a way of preventing higher health costs down the road. We know that if we have a more fit population, savings can be made on the side of health care costs.

    Our officials are also presently reviewing the ParticipACTION program. It still exists, but it has been relatively low-funded recently and hasn't been terribly active. Reviving either that or a similar program would assist in accomplishing the goal of encouraging Canadians to become fit and more physically active.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: I just have one last question. I assume that when you say “facilitate the participation of under-represented groups in the Canadian sport system”, you're talking about the amateur or fitness level as opposed to the elite level, because the elite level is self-selecting. You can promote, you can encourage, you can recruit—and all those things should be done—but at the elite level, there comes a time when the person doing the 100 metres in a certain time is going to....

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: One of the groups referred to in the sports policy is the handicapped. The Paralympics do get some elite funding through the Paralympic program—

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: Well, certainly.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: —so that covers athletes who have disabilities. In the sports policy, however, the reference is to people who have some physical handicap. For some of those same people, there's a bit of a crossover. But generally, the reference to under-represented groups refers more to the participation level.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: Thank you.

    The Chair: Very good.

[Translation]

    Mr. Lanctôt.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt (Châteauguay, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    It's now 4 p.m. and we have an hour and a half left to fully explore this subject and to put questions to our new Secretary of State for Amateur Sport. I'm looking forward to this opportunity.

    First of all, I want to congratulate the government for consulting with the sport community, whether it be athletes or coaches, as well as with other levels of government. I think these consultations were necessary - I even took part in several of the meetings - and I just wanted to congratulate the government on taking this initiative.

    However, some facts have still not been brought to light and this is unfortunate for the entire sport community. It was clear from these consultations that everyone was hoping for a separate Department of Sport. Although I am a relative newcomer to the House of Commons, I do know that it's difficult to secure horizontal funding. I was certain some pressure would have been exerted on your government. That doesn't appear to have happened.

    I for one am extremely disappointed. Yes, we need to change legislation first introduced in 1961, but this bill merely reproduces a number of general provisions and changes some wording. For instance, the expression “amateur sport” is replaced by the word “sport”. I'm not convinced that this is where the real problem lies.

    When you talk to athletes and coaches across the country, everyone agrees that there are problems with sports. Although Canada's medal haul at the Olympic Games was impressive, most of the medals were won as the Games were drawing to a close and mostly because of the efforts of a single individual. For the better part of the Games, people were complaining that our performances weren't up to par. Yet, because of the number of medals won by certain athletes, we're bragging about their overall performance.

    I deplore this serious weakness in the system. However, it seems we have to live with it. I hope the new Secretary of State for Amateur Sport will continue the work undertaken by his predecessor, Mr. Coderre. I hope he too is extremely disappointed with this state of affairs. I realize that he won't be able to use his influence in the same way, but I'm hoping that the new Secretary of State will have the Prime Minister's ear in Cabinet. Let's stop talking and stop producing useless reports. What the sport community really needs is funding and resources. I don't want to repeat what Mr. Strahl said, but this situation is ridiculous really. When it was announced during the consultations that $10 million was being allocated, the Quebec government was also announcing a $10 million investment of its own. That's one single province. When was funding last increased substantially? We all know that there have been deep funding cuts.

    We have an hour and a half to ask questions and make comments. This is a period for questions and comments, Mr. Chairman, unless I'm mistaken.

º  (1600)  

    The Chair: Do you have any questions for the minister?

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: I will certainly have many questions for him.

    We still have a hour and a half. Do you want to proceed in a particular order,or do you simply want us to put our questions?

    The Chair: We have 30 minutes, but there are four committee members who wish to ask questions.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: I understand. However, if my time is up, I'll put my questions to the minister later.

    The Chair: Do you have some questions for him?

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Sports-Québec and Mr. Côté had proposed a decent level of funding for sport. Currently, it sits at .06 per cent of GDP and the call was for funding to increase to between .1 per cent and .3 per cent by 2008. We're told that in France, sport funding accounts for 1 per cent of GDP. What steps to you plan to take to obtain the kind of funding that all athletes, coaches and managers are demanding?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: I can tell you that a decision has been made to increase funding levels. I can't give you exact figures, because this is part of the budget process, but it's a done deal. As Secretary of State for Amateur Sport, I will endeavour to convince my colleagues in Cabinet, the Finance Minister, the Finance Committee and so forth, that the time has come to invest more in sport. Even though I can't give you the exact figures at this time, I can tell you that funding levels will be increased.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Is this the end of the dream of having a Department of Sport, instead of 10 different departments that deal with sport?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: I realize that one of the recommendations in the Mills Report called for the creation of a separate Department of Sport. The majority of the sub-committee members endorsed this particular recommendation. I support the idea, but it's not up to me to decide.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Will you be taking steps to secure additional funding?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: I will be expressing my views on the matter, but I can't give you any guarantees.

    The Chair: Do you have any further questions?

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Yes, but I'll give my colleagues the opportunity to have their turn and I'll wait until later.

    The Chair: Go ahead.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Moving on to another topic, you talked about the importance of having a preamble in the bill. This bill is so general, in my view, that the preamble will reveal the contents of the legislation. There are two aspects of the preamble that I hope we will take a closer look at when the sub-committee does its clause-by-clause study. I also hope that sub-committee members will be able to agree on the changes that need to be made to the bill to ensure compliance with the Official Languages Act. It's important to mention this clearly in the preamble. It's not enough simply to mention this in the regulations, as currently provided.

    We'll get to this when we do our clause-by-clause study, but we need to make it clear to the minister responsible for official languages, Minister Dion, both in the preamble and in the body of the bill, that in the world of sport, compliance with the Official Languages Act is very important. Equally as important is complying with all of the recommendations issued by the Commissioner of Official Languages. Right now, the situation borders on the ridiculous.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Currently, we have section 41 of the Official Languages Act. However, the government is responsible for ensuring that all of its institutions and all of its...

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: This should be incorporated into the preamble.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: I disagree. According to our research, there's only one other instance where the preamble to an act contains a reference to official languages, and that's the case of the Multiculturalism Act. Official languages are mentioned because the legislation deals with languages other than English and French and responsibilities in the area of official languages must be clearly spelled out. No other legislation contains a similar reference because section 41 imposes certain obligations for official languages on all government departments and institutions.

º  (1605)  

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Mr. Secretary of State, I agree with you that we do have legislation on the books, but it has been disregarded for a number of years. I think it's a matter of your stating that as far as you're concerned...

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: You're talking about something different. Whether departments comply with the legislation is an entirely different matter. The question here is whether it's necessary to incorporate this into the preamble. We're saying it's not because we have the legislation.

    : Compliance or non-compliance with the legislation is another matter. In the case of the centre, mention is made on four separate occasions that services will be available in both official languages.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Are you talking about the Sport Dispute Resolution Centre?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: The act does not apply to the centre.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: You refer to the Dispute Resolution Centre. Elsewhere, you refer to the dispute resolution process and that care will be taken to ensure compliance with official languages. Why not state this fact clearly in the preamble? Stop telling me it's because the legal drafter or experts maintain the act is already in place. As you yourself said, other acts contain a similar reference.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers:One other act does.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt:Yes, but that's not as important as incorporating it into this particular piece of legislation. It lacks balance.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Yes, but if we incorporate this into this bill, and not into the next one, what are we in fact saying? We're minimizing the value of the next bill. Do we really want to put this into each and every bill? That's not necessary. It's already spelled out in section 1 of the Official Languages Act.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt:This isn't an auspicious beginning.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Cuzner.

[English]

    Mr. Rodger Cuzner (Bras d'Or—Cape Breton, Lib.): I'd like to express my welcome to the minister, and congratulate him on his appointment. Being a colleague of his in the hockey caucus, I can assure those at the table that his appointment certainly had nothing to do with his performance on the Liberal hockey team.

    I want to go to a point that was brought up by Mr. Lanctôt. Certainly, the bill respects the jurisdiction of the provinces. One aspect of the bill that I do like is the ability to knock off bilateral agreements with the provinces. I certainly respect and understand the fact that each province is at a different stage developmentally with its sports, and each province has different needs. But how much latitude do we have? How deep are we going to be able to go as a federal government? How open are we going to be with the provinces when they come forward with their plans?

    Just let me point to Nova Scotia. As Chuck said, it's somewhat scary when we look at the obesity rates in young people. I know a move is afoot in Nova Scotia because our physical education programs are underfunded. If we're looking at developing elite athletes, as well as at trying to address problems with obesity in young people, we obviously see the school system as a potential delivery vehicle. Will the bilateral agreements have that much latitude to address those opportunities?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: As I indicated earlier, the bill contains the authority to enter into bilaterals. In fact, I've already had discussions with three provinces about potential bilaterals. One is a project dealing with aboriginal people in developing sports as part of their social services. A second is with one of the provinces on active school communities, so it involves the traditional provincial jurisdiction of education, and they're saying they're interested in jointly funding one of these programs. And the other one is in your home province, where there is leadership. Nova Scotia is asking us to entertain a pilot project in which we would put sports leaders into various communities as the people on the ground, in order to involve the community and get people to be more active.

    So those are just three examples already, and the bill has not even passed yet. They're discussions that I've had with ministers in the various provincial jurisdictions, and they're exactly what we're looking for. I'm hoping to work cooperatively with our own Minister of Health in some of these areas because of the health impacts and the interest that she has already shown in regard to the health benefits of physical activity.

º  (1610)  

    Mr. Rodger Cuzner: Maybe you can even expand on that a little bit more, minister. Obviously there's such a high correlation between the sport and the benefits to health. Certainly there must be some opportunities that you're looking at pursuing through the health envelope?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Yes.

    Mr. Rodger Cuzner: And Health certainly has a fairly sizable envelope.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Apparently not in physical activity. They have many other resources, but it’s for them to manage those.

    I think the health minister has shown a real openness. We've had discussions. One thing our officials are already discussing is the whole issue of ParticipACTION or a similar type of program that we can partner on. We can use that to get people to be physically active and to encourage them. That was basically what ParticipACTION did. It was a promotional vehicle. So that's one thing.

[Translation]

    I understand that Kino-Québec is already doing something all these lines. We don't intend to cover the same ground, but to complement this initiative, if at all possible.

    The Chair: Ms. Scherrer.

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer (Louis-Hébert, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. DeVillers, I can' tell you how delighted I am with this change of title and with the switch from the designation“fitness” to “physical activity”. I view this as a major shift in meaning in that “fitness” is really associated with height, weight and cholesterol levels, whereas “physical activity” implies the idea of movement in the broader sense of the word. When we look at current statistics on sedentary lifestyles, we see that Quebec tops the list in terms of the number of beer drinkers, young smokers, obesity levels and sedentary lifestyles. I really think we need to focus on physical activity per se. Therefore, I'm very pleased with the name change, further to our consultations with the public and with various federations that also want to see more elite athletes develop. That doesn't happen overnight. It requires some effort and it all starts with people who enjoy getting involved in sport and other physical pursuits. They are our future elite athletes.

    Like Mr. Lanctôt, I too was a little disappointed to learn that a separate department would not be created, because it could have brought together under one roof everything other departments do. To my colleague Robert, let me just say that most of the problems often seem to be tied to motivation or to political awareness. That's the clear message we always get from the entire sport community, from all of the federations, often from schools and from persons involved with sport.

    I truly believe we have a responsibility to promote this concept at the political level. Even if Mr. DeVillers were to stand naked on the sidewalk in attempt to promote the idea of a separate department, I think his efforts would be doomed to failure. Until now, this is where we've had the most difficulty getting people to understand that sport isn't just a matter of training and promoting elite athletes, it's also a matter of focus on health issues. All we have to do is look at recent statistics to understand that physical activity and sport are directly tied to health issues. I just wanted to make that clear to everyone.

    Now then, I'd like to ask my first question. Over the weekend, I had the pleasure of attending - as you did, Minister, and as did Robert, a conference on women and sport. Let me say right away that I am not especially fond of women's issues, because the designation always gives the impression that women are marginalized in some way. However, I met a number of exceptional women who are deeply committed to their community. At every roundtable, virtually everyone agreed that it wasn't too difficult to recruit women athletes. There are sports for women and there's no trouble filling the quota. The main problem brought to light by Mr. Strahl and by the CAAWS, which was also in attendance, is with the coaches and officials, with the people who hold the power and who make decisions. Is it too much to hope that beyond pious wishes such as saying there will be more women in under-represented groups, we are going to have a well-articulated policy to ensure that women, who are extremely competent as you may have noticed, are in a position to make decisions? When this happens, there will be far fewer problems.

º  (1615)  

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: We're in the process of entrenching the policy on sport in the bill. No concrete provisions per se are contained in the bill, but the policy is laid out in programs and actions. You mentioned the conference that was held with the financial assistance of Sport Canada. Hamilton is also scheduled to play host to a national conference on women in sport the aim of which is to encourage women to consider coaching or managerial duties. We work in partnership with Health Canada and we're investing in the development of a strategy to raise the level of participation by women in sport, not only at the athlete level but at the management and coaching level as well. Concrete steps have already been taken to achieve the aims set out in the proposed legislation.

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer: In a similar vein, what is your reaction to this morning's newspaper article in which an argument was made for funding men and women athletes equally?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: I support this argument in principle. From a what I read, women should be...However, I noted in my presentation that we felt it was ill-advised to draw up a list of persons who are under-represented in the system. We want the policy to apply to all Canadians.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Proctor is next. Before he begins, though, I just want to say that we have lots of time to amend this legislation. If we can come to a consensus, we may just amend the legislation and put it to the House that we should have a full department and that we want a full minister.

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer: We should.

    The Chair: Yes, we should put it to the House and see who votes against it.

    Mr. Proctor.

    Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP): Minister, I want to confine my questions to clause 5, which deals with objects and mandate. There are a lot of platitudes here, but I don't say that in a pejorative way. I would just like to try to understand this a little bit better.

    You touched on this in your earlier answer, but let me start with paragraph 5(m), “facilitate the participation of under-represented groups in the Canadian sport system”. When my wife and I go to see our children participate in sports events in and around Regina, we make a point of looking to see, generally speaking, how few aboriginal athletes are participating in a team sport. That's certainly not representative of the community of Regina, so what is here is laudable. You did mention that you've already talked to three provinces, and you did mention aboriginals. I don't know whether or not Saskatchewan is the province—

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: It’s B.C.

    Mr. Dick Proctor: It’s B.C.

    When you say “facilitate the participation”, could you just elaborate on what you mean by that?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: That's in conformity with the Canadian sports policy, and that action plan is one of the specific action plans endorsed by all fourteen jurisdictions in Iqaluit about a month ago.

    What it says is exactly what it means: “any means possible” to increase the participation of under-represented groups in our Canadian sport system. That usually means financial assistance. That's the most obvious thing. But there might be other ways of accomplishing that facilitation other than financial ones, in order to create opportunities for under-represented aboriginals. Aboriginals, women, and the handicapped are specifically referred to, but it could be any representation, anyone who is under-represented.

    I was recently at a dinner for the Huronia regional swimming association, which is part of Swim Ontario, which is I turn part of Swimming/Natation Canada. Someone stood up from one of the local cooperative housing areas and said parents in her community can't afford the fees for their kids to play minor hockey, etc. So there's another example of a group: poor children or children from families that can't.... So we need to look at everything we can do to increase that.

    Another point in the Canadian sports policy, in the action plan, is to develop a policy for the hosting of the North American Indigenous Games. It has been ad hoc until now, so that's something that has specifically been earmarked within the action plan. All fourteen jurisdictions will develop a policy and action plan that can facilitate the hosting of those games for aboriginal people. I think that's one way we can try to make sure under-represented groups are better represented.

º  (1620)  

    Mr. Dick Proctor: Thank you for that.

    Where you say, “encouraging provincial and territorial governments to promote and develop sport”, again, what is meant by “encourage”? Is it to encourage financially, or to encourage working together?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Bilateral agreements are the first example that I can think of. As I said, the bill hasn't passed yet but various provinces are already approaching us. They usually mean financial participation, but they will most likely usually be in areas of provincial jurisdiction. The provinces will therefore have the lead, and the Government of Canada will then be there to participate financially. There may be services that can be rendered as part of that agreement. So it will depend on a case-by-case basis.

    The Chair: Does that include facilities?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: It includes facilities if there is access to federal facilities. I'm also thinking of military bases, etc. There are all kinds of possibilities.

    Mr. Dick Proctor: This is my last question, if I may, at least to this point, Mr. Chair.

    One of the objectives is to “encourage the private sector to contribute financially to the development of sport”. I think we would all agree that in terms of participating or contributing, there are some areas in which the private sector will be much more interested than it is in other areas. I just would like a little bit of elaboration from you on that point. Do you agree with that kind of analysis? Will additional moneys be focused on areas in which we're less likely to have private-sector contributions?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Right across the spectrum, there's a place for private-sector investment. It will often involve advertising. The private sector usually wants to get involved when something comes back to it in the form of exposure, publicity, etc. But like the sports policy says, we have to find innovative ways. We have to get outside the box and look at different ways of doing it. I don't think there should be any restrictions on what we look at. We should be open to receiving all proposals.

    Mr. Dick Proctor: I wasn't suggesting that. I was just suggesting that, if you're televising the final game of the Olympic hockey tournament, you're going to have a lot of interest in that. There will be more interest than what you would have in a number of other sports that are just not being watched but which are important for the development of our young people.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Yes, but if revenues come from, say, selling advertising at…the Olympics are a bad example, because most of that money goes to the International Olympic Committee, with some of it going to the hosting committee. But in other national finals or whatever, if we can sell advertising, then that money will be distributed throughout the entire system, through the national sports organization. If it's hockey, soccer, or whatever, that money will hopefully find its way right through the entire system.

º  (1625)  

    Mr. Dick Proctor: Fair enough.

    The Chair: Mr. Harvard.

    Mr. John Harvard (Charleswood St. James—Assiniboia, Lib.): I'll try to perhaps build on what Mr. Proctor has already raised. At some point, I'm sure the minister will have an opportunity to say something about the North American Indigenous Games…which will take place where, Mr. Minister?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: In Winnipeg.

    Mr. John Harvard: In Winnipeg, yes. And some of those games, the actual contests or competitions, will take place in my riding, so I'm sure you can wax eloquent about that in a moment.

    Following on what Mr. Proctor was raising about under-representation, Mr. Minister, I suppose there are a number of reasons for why there is under-representation. I'm just wondering whether you feel some new language should be put into the bill in order to prevent certain kinds of discrimination. You've heard concerns about certain opportunities not being available to girls and women and certain resources not being available to girls and women. Would you consider changing the language in the act—perhaps clauses 3, 4, and 6—to include, as prohibited grounds, things like sex, economic status, race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, or mental or physical disability?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: My difficulty with that right now is that I think we have everything covered by saying “all”. Once we start listing, we can sit here until the cows come home and prepare a list—

    Mr. John Harvard: So it's better to make it—

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: —but somebody somewhere will say we forgot this one or that one.

    Mr. John Harvard: So it's implicit, as it were.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: When it says, “all Canadians”, it means all Canadians.

    That's the safest way to do it, because there's always the possibility of leaving someone off who should have been included when you start listing.

    Mr. John Harvard: All right, I accept that. What about the benefits that flow from the government—that is, the federal government—to the provinces and the territories, though? You may be non-discriminating in your policies, and they may be written right in the federal act. But once the money crosses the line, as it were, and goes into the pockets of the provinces and the territories, would those rules hold? Would you somehow demand of those jurisdictions the same kind of treatment so that they—and I don't want to say this pejoratively toward them—would not in any way discriminate on those grounds?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Those conditions would be set through the vehicle of the bilateral agreements. Presently, Sport Canada funding has those requirements for NSOs, for national sports organizations, when they receive funding. They have to be non-profit organizations, they have to deliver services without discrimination, they have to supply services in both languages, etc. I would therefore see similar types of conditions being put into those bilaterals, and they would be given for specific purposes. The money wouldn't simply be transferred without identification of what use is to be made of the money.

    Mr. John Harvard: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Harvard.

    Just before Mr. Strahl asks a question, members, I think we should have short preambles to your questions. Because we end in half an hour, we should leave a little time for the committee to discuss a strategy on how we will proceed with witnesses, and what party views are in terms of how much time we want to take to process the bill through to its final stage.

    Go ahead, Mr. Strahl.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: One of the difficulties that I think we're going to have in this initial stage is that we haven't gone through the budgetary process. It all comes down to money and where it's being spent. Throughout the bill, I've highlighted all of the occurrences of the words “promote”, “encourage”, “distribute information”, and “encourage promotion”. They all look great, but they almost mean nothing until we know what the spending envelopes are. It's easy to agree to the bill in the broad sense of wanting to promote physical activity. It's difficult to know whether or not this is going to be done properly, though, until we see the budgetary process.

    For my own edification, when the government…. We've had all this fuss in the House about contracts going to sporting events or quasi-sporting events. When the Government of Canada puts a flag in the Molson Centre and pays money to have it there as promotion, is that encouraging a sporting event, is that encouraging a cultural event, is it encouraging promotion of the federal government, or is it encouraging hockey teams? Where is that coming from?

º  (1630)  

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Well, I think we're straying from what—

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: No. Is it going to come out of your—

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: No, it doesn't. It comes out of the Public Works budget. They have a specific program on sponsorship. A lot of that money ends up in sporting events, but it's not spent under the auspices of Sport Canada or through this budget.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: So they're promoting sport in a different way.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: They're sponsoring sport.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: And that's not promoting?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Well, it may be—

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: I think the problem we're going to find as we work through this—and I admit to being a rookie on this act and on this committee—is that of trying to ferret out where the money is coming from and where it's being spent. At the last Games of la Francophonie—to use them as an example—CMHC gave money to house athletes. That's promoting sport, and the money came out of the CMHC budget. You mentioned that the official bilingualism office promotes the same games, so money comes out of that. And Public Works gives money to promote professional hockey teams.

    You're going to have some amount of money, but nobody knows how much. It's hard to know whether or not this money is being well spent, because it just seems to be pretty ad hoc. It seems to go wherever the political…. Let's be kind and put it this way: There's a risk that whatever is most politically advantageous will find its way into that spending envelope.

    I agree with this theory of promoting, preparing, distributing, and encouraging, but—

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Currently, there are three very clear envelopes in Sport Canada, and I've described them to you. What we're dealing with here is enabling legislation. You're saying you're not going to know the success of it until you see the dollars. I'll go a step further. I'll say you're not going to see the success of it until you see how the dollars are spent and how they're used. Simply spending money doesn't necessarily get you results. Money has to be spent in programs that accomplish the goals that are set out here.

    I hear what you're saying, but I don't see an easy answer to it, other than to say that the government will have to get whatever moneys come through this budget. We will have to look at programs and we'll have to try to enter into bilaterals with the provinces and with other programming that will encourage Canadians to become more active and participate in sports. We'll encourage our elite athletes to increase their performances, as well.

    You have to do the programs, and then you measure the results. I don't think you can measure them before you do them.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: No, I agree. I think you're going to find general agreement—from me anyway, since I can't speak for anyone else—that the act is going in the right direction. It's talking about the right kinds of things and has the right kind of language in it. But the proof will be in the pudding—

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Exactly.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: —which is the budgetary process. We almost have to through that and even the pre-budget consultation before we know whether or not what's said here is going to manifest itself.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: And I'm sure every member of this committee will be there—

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: Right on.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: —supporting increased spending for sport.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: Judicious spending, at least.

    If I could just go on another tangent perhaps, some have argued that under the elite program in Australia, for example, the money—and maybe more money—is better spent because of the way in which they've targeted their elite athletes. They seem to get a better bang for their buck. They have a better program. I don't want to emphasize just the Olympics, but that's how people gauge things. It's not just the physical activity, but whether or not you are successful. You have to do both. You have to do the physical activity and help us to shine on the international stage. Is there any attempt in here to either set a direction or to help to set a direction for the elite athletes' programs, whether they're for the Commonwealth Games, the Olympic Games, or any of those?

º  (1635)  

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: As I've indicated, increasing participation is one plank and improved excellence of performance is another.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: But how do you do that?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: One feeds the other. They're of equal importance in terms of priority. If we broaden our base of participants, we're going to have a pyramid effect. We're going to have more people reaching the elite level. The more people accomplish and the more they win medals, etc., the more they will provide the inspiration to broaden the base. So I think it's a continuum that's compatible. It's not an either/or situation.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: I don't disagree. I guess I'm perhaps picking up on some of Mr. Lanctôt's remarks.

    Is the secret more money for that? Is it targeting people at a younger age? Is it having a more elite coaching staff?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: The answer to that is, yes.

    Mr. Chuck Strahl: The answer to all of the above is, yes. Well, I think we're just fishing. Until we see what's involved money-wise, we can all just say, “Why don't we have gold medals? All those in favour…? There, we've done it. We're all going to get gold.” Until we see the dollars…. I support what you're doing, but it's going to be hard to be gung-ho until we see what your budgetary envelopes are.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Have you a question, Mr. Lanctôt?

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: I have a three-part question and I'd like a clear answer on the funding issue. I mentioned among other things that in France, the funding level represents almost 1% of GDP. We're asking for a level amounting to .2% in 2003, .3 per cent in 2005 and .5% in 2008. Despite the fact that a separate department is not being created, shouldn't a minimal level of funding at least be provided?

    Achieving a level of funding equal to .5 per cent of GDP by 2008 is not that outlandish a goal. We need to end the talking and spring into action. Denis Coderre worked very hard to obtain the funding and his efforts were unsuccessful. What do you think our chances are of reaching this very modest goal?

    As far as jurisdictions are concerned, I hope co-operation is not the sole objective. The preamble to the bill mentions co-operation. There was evidence of co-operation at the regional conference and at the national level as well. The preamble should also include a reference to compliance with respective government jurisdictions. That's important. It's not just a matter of co-operating, because co-operation doesn't necessarily imply compliance with jurisdictions. At the level of sub-committee and in sport in general in Canada and in Quebec, it's critically important that promotion of sport not involve encroachment into someone else's jurisdiction, as we have seen happen in the past. In my view, the conference was an attempt to show that this would not happen. I trust this reference will be incorporated into the bill, specifically into the preamble, as I've proposed.

    I don't wish to focus again on the funding issue, since I've already talked to you about that, but kudos to you on the establishment of the Dispute Resolution Centre. Of course, this is only a first draft and there is room for improvement. For example, the bill does not specify whether the mediation or arbitration agreement must be in writing. No details are provided. I hope that mediation will be chosen because both parties requested this option, not because they were forced to take this route. I'm a lawyer, and a mediator as well. That's not how mediation works. Decisions must be in writing, to allow for appeals.

    Assuming a competition is scheduled to take place in two weeks, the parties go into mediation. The decision rendered will either allow the athlete to compete or will ban him from competing. The athlete must have the option of appealing the decision because his entire future as an athlete, as well as that of his coach and everyone involved, may be at stake. Often, millions of dollars may be on the line.

    Therefore, there are many details that need to be ironed out. I hope I can be of service to the sub-committee. The drafters will surely be taking note of my comments.

º  (1640)  

[English]

    The Chair: I'd like a short answer, Minister.

[Translation]

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: You asked three questions.

    First of all, on the question of funding, I did not look at percentages of GDP. All I can say is that funding levels are set to increase. I can't tell you anything more right now. I haven't looked into whether we've reached the level of .5 per cent of GDP.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: Could you provide us with an answer at a later date?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: I will do everything in my power to increase funding as much as possible.

    Secondly, with respect to jurisdictions, it all depends on your perspective. When I get up in the morning, I don't write a note to remind myself not to steal from my neighbour today, because I have no intention of doing that. I don't need to write notes every day to remind myself that...

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: No, but we have many examples of that.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: That's not my intention.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: We need more examples.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Therefore, it's not necessary to state in the bill, either in the preamble or elsewhere, that we have no intention of encroaching on provincial areas of jurisdiction, because that's not our intention. There's nothing in the bill telling us to do that.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: [Editor's note: inaudible].

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Exactly. Your third question had to do with...

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: ...amending some of the bill's provisions respecting the Dispute Resolution Centre.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: That's right. The working group is in the process of drafting the mediation code. These details will be attended to by the centre's directors once the centre has been established. The bill is not the appropriate place for laying out details of this nature.

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: What about the right of appeal?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: The code will provide for the right of appeal.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Proctor, you have time for a short question. We'll then move to some short questions from the government side, and then we'll have our discussion.

    Mr. Dick Proctor: I have two questions, and I'll just put them both out. The first picks up on Mr. Strahl's point.

    Paragraph 5(j) in the objects and mandate part of the bill states: “provide bursaries and fellowships to assist individuals in pursuing excellence in sport”. Canada has been providing bursaries and fellowships for a long time, and there has been a lot of criticism of late that those bursaries and fellowships are not sufficient for our carded athletes. Again, it comes back to the whole question of the moneys that are going to be available, so could you just elaborate on that subject? Do you, as the minister, recognize that we have fallen behind and that, as a result, we have let down some of our elite athletes in this area?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: My understanding is that the cuts made through the process of program review were made more at the participation level. There had been an increase in the level of funding under the athlete assistance program, although that's not to say you're living high on the hog with $1,100 a month. So there's always room to do more.

    I've indicated on several occasions now that there will be an increase in funding. That increase will come through the budgeting process. Once the amounts are known, we'll be able to see, because, as part of the goal of the Canadian Olympic Association—now the COC, the Canadian Olympic Committee—their objective is to be number one in the world in winter Olympic sports by 2010, and number six, I believe, in the summer games. That means measures are going to have to be taken.

    I know they're putting more emphasis on high performance, so we will be there to hopefully work with them, to do more of the relief that will have to come if their emphasis is going to be more on...but if we similarly adopt the goals that they have, we're going to have to make efforts at both levels—high performance as well as participation.

    Mr. Dick Proctor: And just very quickly, on clause 12, when you were going through that—it says, “The affairs and business of the Centre shall be managed by a board of directors”—you said that would be after consultations, but you neglected to say with whom.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: With the sporting community.

    Mr. Dick Proctor: With the sporting community?

º  (1645)  

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Yes, that's what the bill provides for. In one case, it's consultation with the directors. When the minister names the executive director, it will be after consultation with the directors. When the minister names the directors, it will be in accordance with the guidelines, in consultation with the sporting community.

    Mr. Dick Proctor: Thank you.

    The Chair: Mr. Cuzner.

    Mr. Rodger Cuzner: I just have a comment first.

    I'm really encouraged with the sense amongst the committee members at the table, Mr. Minister, in that I think we all see the connection you make in your own comments between the elite athletes and successful athletes, and participation numbers. Just from my own hockey background, I saw in the 1980s how numbers dropped off in hockey not because of anything negative, but because we had such a strong, powerful role model in basketball in Michael Jordan. He was beginning his career, so many young people drifted to basketball or decided to take up basketball.

    I don't think it's going to be any coincidence that we will get increases in female participation because of the tremendous performance by our women's hockey team or by Becky Scott in cross-country skiing. I think those things will go a long way toward increasing participation in women's sports.

    I think it's a positive thing that we all see an investment in our elite athletes as money well spent. Your comment was that you believe the legislation will enable the potential for more money to get into their hands and support those athletes throughout their training. I think that's reassuring.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Thank you.

[Translation]

    The Chair: Ms. Scherrer.

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer: Thank you.

    Recently, I met with the director of Baseball Canada who informed that his sport was in free fall owing to declining participation. I told him that undoubtedly soccer had become the sport of choice. However, I was very surprised to hear him say that golf was the culprit. The one person who has made a difference to the sport of golf is Tiger Woods. We often hear that people play soccer because it's an inexpensive sport. Well, if there's one sport that very expensive to play, it has to be golf. However, young people today are taking up the sport. This goes to show the kind of influence a talented, good-looking and well-spoken athlete can have. I think all parents would love to develop their own little Tiger. It's not necessarily a question of money.

    Getting back to the Dispute Resolution Centre and to the issues raised by Mr. Proctor, I'm somewhat disturbed by the fact that the Centre's executive director is appointed by the minister, further to consultations with the other directors. Quite frankly, I would have preferred to see the executive director appointed by the board of directors.

    You mentioned in your presentation that the executive director will be appointed by the minister, not by the Secretary of State. Was this merely a slip, because you are now the minister, or is the minister in this instance in fact the Minister of Canadian Heritage?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: According to the bill, “Minister”means the person designated for the purposes of this act by the Prime Minister. Once the bill is enacted, a minister, either the Minister of Health or the Minister...

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer: And that person could be the Secretary of State?

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: I don't really know, but perhaps Roger can help us out.

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer: Could the minister in this case be the Secretary of State?

    Mr. Roger Farley (Director, Legislation and Interdepartmental Coordination, Department of Canadian Heritage): The act does not identify a particular minister. It simply stipulates that the Minister will be designated for the purposes of the act by the Governor in Council. Therefore, the appointment would be by order in council. Right now, it would be the Minister of Heritage along with the Secretary of State. It would all depend on whether the Heritage Minister delegates this authority to the Secretary of State.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Mr. Charland tells me that according to clause 2 of the bill, the minister must be a member of Privy Council. The Secretary of State is a Privy Councillor. Therefore, he could be designated.

    Ms. Hélène Scherrer: Fine then.

[English]

    The Chair: Mr. Harvard, did you have a last question?

    Mr. John Harvard: I have no more questions.

º  (1650)  

    The Chair: Okay.

    Minister, just before you leave us, I want to say congratulations. This was one of the rare committees in which we had a consensus document on the importance of sport in Canada. All parties believe that nothing contributes more to national unity than sport, and that nothing reduces health care costs more quickly than physical activity. As we discuss things in this committee over the next little while, I'm hoping we can create a consensus to put something forward on the floor of the House of Commons when we go to the next stage of the bill. I'm hoping we can pressure the executive branch of this government to reach for that target of 1% of GDP, because it's not wasted money, it's money that creates a reduction in costs to the total treasury.

    Thank you very much for coming.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: If I may, might I just add something for clarification? For budgetary purposes, I'll give you the budget of Sport Canada for 2001-02. For the athlete assistance program—the money that went directly to carded athletes—it was $16 million. For national sports organizations for single sports, it was $30 million in transfers right to those associations. For the multi-sport organizations, it was $8 million. For national sport centres—there are six of them throughout the country—it was $3.4 million. For hosting—and this is the one that varies from year to year, depending on events—it was $30.8 million. And “other” was $4.5 million. So that just gives you an idea of the current budget.

    The Chair: Maybe you could have your colleagues circulate that to the members.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Sure.

    The Chair: Thank you very much for coming today, Minister.

    Mr. Paul DeVillers: Thank you very much. It has been a pleasure. I look forward to the results of your work.

    The Chair: Colleagues, I now defer to you. We're going to talk about the strategy for processing the bill. Do you want to do this in public or do you want to go in camera? Does it matter?

[Translation]

    Mr. Robert Lanctôt: We need to go in camera.

[English]

    An hon. member: In camera.

    The Chair: Okay, then I'll ask everybody to please clear the room.

    [Proceedings continue in camera]