FAIT Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, April 13, 2000

• 0946

[English]

The Acting Chair (Mr. Gurmant Grewal (Surrey Central, Canadian Alliance)): Good morning. I call the meeting to order.

For the information of the witnesses, we have been studying the file regarding our trip to the South Caucasus and Central Asia.

In the past we have had some discussion on business opportunities. We have very learned witnesses to explain the business situation in the region. Today our topic is human rights, and we have very distinguished witnesses before the committee. Alex Neve is the secretary general of Amnesty International (Canada) and Ria Holcak is the director of central and eastern Europe for the Canadian Human Rights Foundation.

I welcome the witnesses on behalf of the committee and thank you for coming.

Normally in the committee we have about a ten-minute presentation from the witnesses, and then we have questions and answers.

Let me also point out that even though there are few members in the committee, the members will read the testimony, so please feel encouraged.

I ask Alex Neve to go first.

Mr. Alex Neve (Secretary General, Amnesty International (Canada)): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning, committee members.

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today and share with you some of Amnesty International's concerns with respect to human rights protection in the eight countries you are considering.

With eight countries and ten minutes, I cannot afford much time for introductory remarks, but there are—

The Acting Chair (Mr. Gurmant Grewal): We will try to be flexible as well.

Mr. Alex Neve: —two important points I want to make before I begin. First, many of you are probably aware of the fact that Amnesty International has a very specific human rights mandate. We promote understanding of all human rights; however, we research and campaign with respect to violations of a limited number of fundamental rights. We work for the release of prisoners of conscience and for fair trials for all political prisoners. We also campaign against the use of torture, the death penalty, disappearances, and extra-judicial killings. The overview I will provide you therefore focuses on issues arising with respect to those rights.

The fact that Amnesty International does not express its views with regard to the enjoyment of other rights, notably those in the economic, social, and cultural fields, the right to health care, and the right to education, etc., does not of course by any means necessarily mean that those rights are respected in those countries.

I hope perhaps my colleague this morning or others you will hear from will be able to provide you with insights with regard to some of those other rights issues.

• 0950

Second, I must confess that I am not an expert on any of these eight states. Our professional research expertise rests with our international secretariat in London. Within the Canadian section of Amnesty, we take action on the information we receive from London, not just on these countries, but on virtually all parts of the world.

I have, I assure you, sought to immerse myself in a fairly extensive number of reports and appeals we have issued recently on these countries. However, I hope you will understand if I find it necessary, particularly in the question and answer session, to admit occasionally that I am unable to answer a particular question. In that case, I will follow up with our research staff on any matters coming within our mandate.

I will just go through the countries in alphabetical order. First is Armenia.

As a backdrop, as you likely know, in October of last year five armed men opened fire in the Armenian parliament. Eight men were killed, including the prime minister, the speaker, and two of the speaker's deputies. We have followed the aftermath of that incident very closely and have welcomed the commitment of President Kocharian to ensure that the armed men who carried out the attack would face no violence and would be granted a fair trial. Incidents like these are often the true test of a state's ability to uphold human rights in a time of considerable crisis and tension.

Among our concerns in Armenia is the fact that military service laws do not provide an alternative to military service. There are therefore a number of conscientious objectors who find themselves in prison. We consider them to be prisoners of conscience. In at least one case there are allegations that the individual has been severely beaten.

The use of torture in prisons in Armenia continues to be a concern. The United Nations committee against torture was to have reviewed Armenia's record of compliance with the convention against torture in May of this year, but Armenia has just announced that it will not appear before the committee next month. That's of some concern.

In Azerbaijan, an important human rights backdrop to the situation there is the still unresolved dispute with regard to the self-proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh republic. The ceasefire in that region is holding. Azerbaijan does not have de facto control over that area, and hundreds of thousands of people remain displaced from that conflict. Within Nagorno-Karabakh, the death penalty is still used. Again there is no alternative to military service. There is legislation pending that would outlaw illegal religious groups and sects.

Most recently, just about two weeks ago we expressed concern with regard to the arrest of a journalist, Vahram Aghajanian, in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. I actually have a document with me today that I can provide to people, if they'd like a copy.

In Azerbaijan itself, we are working on behalf of a number of prisoners of conscience, including representatives of some Christian groups and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Finally, we have watched with some concern reports from time to time that Azerbaijan will close its borders to refugees from Chechnya. We recognize that the country already carries a heavy burden, in terms of the large numbers of refugees and internally displaced persons from the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. We are concerned, however, that people fleeing the Chechnyan conflict will be denied protection if they require it, and have called on the international community to ensure that Azerbaijan receives the help and assistance it requires in dealing with refugees and the displaced.

In Georgia, among significant recent events is the fact that Georgia officially became a member of the Council of Europe in April 1999. The ruling party in Georgia won elections in October of last year.

Two conflictual areas of the country remain outside control of Georgian authorities. They are Abkhazia and South Ossetia. In both cases there's been little progress in peace talks. The situation in Abkhazia, in particular, is still very tense.

• 0955

There continue to be persistent reports of torture in Georgia. We have just issued a major report—again, I have some copies of it—looking closely at these concerns with regard to the use of torture in the country.

Georgia has, however, recently ratified a number of international human rights treaties. This includes the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. As part of that, in June of 1999 the UN committee responsible for overseeing that treaty looked at Georgia's record of compliance, expressed some concerns, and made some recommendations, including, amongst other things, the need for gender-sensitive training of law enforcement officials in the country.

In Kazakhstan there were, of course, two sets of elections in 1999. The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe expressed serious concerns about both. This includes President Nazarbayev's landslide victory in January of 1999 and then parliamentary elections in October of that year. The OSCE had serious concerns about both elections.

Prison conditions remain a serious human rights issue in Kazakhstan. They have very poor prison conditions. Concerns include lack of medical treatment, grossly inadequate hygiene facilities, and regular reports of arbitrary beatings of prisoners with rubber truncheons.

The death penalty is retained in Kazakhstan. Another recent and quite serious human rights concern is the indication that Kazakh authorities have begun complying with requests from the Government of China to deport ethnic Uyghurs who promote ethnic rights in the Xinjiang area of China. A number have now been deported after seeking asylum in Kazakhstan.

This is a particular concern, because reports are now emerging that those returned face serious risks of torture and even execution in China. We've appealed to the Kazakhs to stop the deportations.

With regard to Kyrgyzstan, in the aftermath of bomb attacks in February of 1999 in neighbouring Uzbekistan, attacks that were blamed on violent Islamic groups there and that had triggered a wave of arrests in Uzbekistan, there was a similar crackdown on extremist—I use the word advisedly—Islamic groups in the southern region of Kyrgyzstan as well, which is home to a large ethnic Uzbek community. That continues to be a serious human rights concern in the country.

There are also ongoing reports that Uzbek authorities frequently come into the country and arbitrarily detain Kyrgyz citizens who are accused of having links to banned Uzbek parties. Scores have been arrested by Kyrgyz authorities, not just the Uzbek authorities, for distributing leaflets for banned Islamist parties.

We have concerns that human rights defenders, local organizations in Kyrgyzstan who seek to promote and defend human rights, are at some risk in their work. In September of 1998, the justice ministry had revoked the registration of the Kyrgyz Committee for Human Rights. That group tried to re-register in March of last year, but in a strange twist of events was told in May of last year that a group of the same name but with a different chairman had just been registered by the government in April. The OSCE took up this case. The international community became quite involved. Finally the organization was re-registered in August of last year.

To us, this is indicative of a real concern that those who seek, on an independent basis, to protect and defend human rights in the country do so with some difficulty.

There are concerns about freedom of the press in Kyrgyzstan. In particular, we've watched with concern as reports have come in that those working with the largest independent daily in the country, Vecherny Bishkek, have been harassed. The editor-in-chief has been regularly threatened with arrest.

• 1000

In Tajikistan, a referendum in September of last year increased the president's powers in the country and allowed religious-based political parties to operate.

There were presidential elections in November. The president, Imomali Rakhmonov, was re-elected with a massive majority. This was immediately followed by strenuous claims from the opposition that there had been fraud.

Two opposition parties are banned in the country, the Agrarian and National Unity parties. Other parties are simply denied registration, and their members are regularly threatened and harassed.

There are numerous restrictions in place on the news media in Tajikistan, and journalists are regularly intimidated, harassed, and attacked.

In general, we're concerned that there is a high level of political violence in the country, including abductions and killings. The death penalty continues to be imposed.

In Turkmenistan, again, there were elections last year. That was actually a fairly common theme in the region. A number of countries did have elections in 1999. This time the OSCE did not even send observers to the election. They felt that the basic level of pluralism necessary to ensure a free and fair election was not present. They did not even deem it necessary to observe the election.

No political activity is allowed in the country. Candidates for the fifty-seat parliament are selected by the president. The president, Saparmurad Niyazov, was made president for life in December of last year.

Human rights monitors and journalists find it very difficult to operate freely and openly in the country. A number were actually deported from the country in 1999, including a member of a Human Rights Watch delegation in February of that year.

Concerns include the repression of religious minorities. Only the Russian Orthodox Church and officially sanctioned Sunni Muslims are able to gain registration from the government after that was made compulsory in early 1997. There was a wave of police raids on Protestant churches in the second half of 1999.

Again, we've just recently issued a report on Turkmenistan, looking at the issue of harassment and imprisonment of religious believers in the country. The report was issued last month.

Finally, there's Uzbekistan. As a backdrop, you are likely familiar with the bomb attacks that took place in Tashkent in February of 1999, where 13 people died and more than 100 were injured. The attacks have been blamed on violent foreign-trained Islamic groups.

That led to a wave of arbitrary arrests of supposed conspirators. The net was cast very widely, and included members of Islamic congregations, followers of independent Islamic leaders, supporters of banned opposition parties, and their families. Heavy custodial sentences have been imposed, including death sentences, after unfair trials.

Parliamentary elections were held in December of 1999, the first since 1991. Again, the OSCE did not even send a team. They felt that the campaign process did not meet basic democratic standards. The two opposition parties, Erk and Birlik, are both banned.

There's been a growing number of reports of torture, particularly of independent Islamic congregations. Hundreds have been sentenced to long terms of imprisonment.

There are reports of prison camps that have been established in remote areas of the country, where most prisoners are said to be members of Islamic congregations and groups. The conditions in these camps are said to be cruel, inhuman, and degrading, with prisoners being denied adequate drinking water and doing forced labour. As well, the camps are located near chemically or biologically contaminated areas.

Finally, in Uzbekistan, again, there are concerns about the ability of human rights defenders and human rights organizations to carry out their work. In particular, we've monitored with concern the treatment of members of the independent human rights organization of Uzbekistan.

• 1005

That provides an overview of the eight countries. I expect you find it a fairly sombre assessment. The concerns in many instances include ongoing reports of torture; the fact that the death penalty is retained in many countries; politically motivated arrests and detention; concerns of conscientious objection and the imprisonment of individuals in that context; religious persecution, including of followers of Islamic congregations, various Christian churches, and Jehova's Witnesses; and as a backdrop, the fact that there are uneasy ceasefires and truces holding in a number of areas of conflict, particularly in Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Tajikistan.

I guess you'll hear from my colleague now, and then I look forward to answering any questions you may have.

Thank you.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Gurmant Grewal): Thank you very much, Mr. Neve.

Before we go to the question period, Madam Holcak, please.

Ms. Ria Holcak (Director, Central and Eastern Europe Program, Canadian Human Rights Foundation): Mr. Chair, members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen,

[Translation]

my name is Ria Holcak and I'm the Director, Central and Eastern Europe Program, for the Canadian Human Rights Foundation. I will be making my presentation in English because regrettably, my French is not very good. Thank you.

[English]

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you today.

In the short time allotted to me I will, in a few words, describe our organization, briefly summarize the situation in Central Asia, give you our perspective on the human rights situation in the region, and make some recommendations that have been shaped by our experience on the ground and with our NGO partners in the region.

The Canadian Human Rights Foundation, or CHRF, is a Montreal-based NGO, created in 1967. It is dedicated to education in human rights. We have a board of 25 and a staff of 15.

Geographically, our activities and programs are carried out in Canada, Asia, francophone Africa, central and eastern Europe, and Central Asia. The cornerstone of our activities is the annual international human rights training program, now in its 21st year. This three-year program, delivered in Montreal, brings together over 110 human rights activists, and since 1998 has brought 10 human rights workers from Central Asia.

In central and eastern Europe and Central Asia, with the general support of CIDA and other funders we have delivered a three-phase training for human rights trainers program. The program started in 1997 and concluded in March of this year. Two of the phases were delivered in Central Asia, one in Uzbekistan and the other in Kazakhstan.

We are also involved in joint programs that target these non-governmental organizations in the region to strengthen their capacity to carry out human rights education activities.

In November of last year, jointly with our local partners, we developed and delivered two Russian-language training programs—in Kazakhstan, human rights training for teachers, and in Uzbekistan, training for trainers of women's NGOs.

Our human rights education programs have been highly evaluated by CIDA, among others, and we have been approached to develop programs by the United Nations, OSCE, and others.

During our visits to the region, my colleagues and I have met with numerous human rights NGOs and international organizations working in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Uzbekistan with groups such as UNDP, OSCE, International Organization for Migration, Soros, and Canadian and American ambassadors in Almaty.

I will now give you a brief account of the situation in Central Asia. During the past decade, Central Asia has lived through a period of political, economic, and social turmoil. The euphoria that followed independence in the early nineties has been replaced by disillusionment, even nostalgia for the old system. There has been an increase in poverty and unemployment and a deterioration in governance and the rule of law.

• 1010

The poor economic conditions and performance of the region contrast very sharply with the richness of its natural resources. Attempts at transition to market economies have been painful, and the adverse effects have been severest for the most vulnerable groups in society: the poor, pensioners, children, refugees, and the internally displaced.

Political and economic difficulties have been compounded by the social upheaval that followed the breakup of the Soviet Union. The relaxation of migration laws, territorial claims, armed conflicts, and ecological devastation created massive population movements both within and across borders. The large number of refugees and internally displaced peoples, even ethnic groups returning to their homeland, such as Kazakhs, face humanitarian problems and discrimination and are vulnerable to all kinds of abuses. The region is also feeling the potentially destabilizing influence of the spread of Islamic fundamentalism.

General deterioration in the standard of living for the vast majority of the population has led to widespread dissatisfaction with the governments of the region. All this provides fertile ground for human rights violations to flourish.

Upon independence, the newly established republics drafted constitutions that guaranteed the protection of human rights. To demonstrate their readiness to join the international community, they also moved quickly to ratify the most important United Nations human rights treaties. All the countries have joined the OSCE and have therefore accepted certain standards. Unfortunately these commitments on paper have not matched the action.

Perhaps the most glaring example of the lack of commitment to democracy, as my colleague from Amnesty already mentioned, is the conduct of elections in the region. While they cling to symbols of democracy—elections and parliaments—the reality is elections remain tightly controlled and the results are in little doubt. The worst offender, as my colleague mentioned, is Turkmenistan, where the President was declared President for life and calls himself Turkmenbashi, the father of Turkmen.

Even in Kyrgyzstan, which likes to think of itself as an island of democracy in the region, the elections in March were followed by public demonstrations in Bishkek and other cities protesting the government's politically motivated arrests of opposition leaders, banning of opposition candidates, and falsifying of election results. As some of you may know, the demonstrations are currently in progress, and there are some people on hunger strikes in Kyrgyzstan.

Linked to the control of elections are the restrictions on freedom of expression and association that are evident throughout the region. Central Asia's leaders don't just obstruct political opposition; they resist political dissent of any kind. The governments in the region attempt to control the media in many ways: distribution of newspaper, ownership of printing houses, etc. The media are also subject to arbitrary taxes and often are fined very heavily if they are too critical. Even where there is more openness, there is a tendency towards self-censorship.

There are laws in most of the countries that restrict peaceful assembly. These are frequently used to ban demonstrations that may be critical of the government.

The work of human rights activists in this environment is difficult, even dangerous, as we have heard from my colleague from Amnesty. This is particularly true if the activities involve criticism of the government.

• 1015

Groups that document and monitor human rights abuses or elections face constant harassment and possible imprisonment. Surveillance by the state security service is common. For example, one of our partners in Kazakhstan reports that they are regularly asked for lists of participants in their programs by agents of the Committee for National Security, which reports directly to the president.

During my trip to Almaty last November, the office of the Kazakhstan International Bureau for Human Rights was burned down. They lost all their files. The police investigation concluded that arson was the cause, but no suspects were identified and charged. Because the bureau has been an outspoken critic of the recent elections, the entire human rights community was shaken by the event.

In Uzbekistan, where the environment is even more restrictive, many human rights activists have been labelled Islamic fundamentalists and subsequently arrested. In fact all countries in the region continue to arrest and detain political prisoners. We have heard more about that from my colleague.

Some of the most effective work in the region is currently being undertaken by women's organizations, which focus much of their energy on addressing the problems of violence and discrimination against women. However, because women's organizations are perceived as less threatening by governments, they have the potential to spread public awareness of human rights issues.

Access to justice for the victims of human rights violations is limited. State institutions, including the judiciary, still operate very much in the Soviet style. In Central Asia it is too early to talk about an independent judiciary. As one human rights activist put it, the judiciary in Kazakhstan is independent: it's independent from the whole world. Corruption in the system often allows individuals to escape accountability for criminal actions that might also constitute violations of human rights.

Recently there has been some progress in the region towards the creation of national human rights institutions. Uzbekistan has created an ombudsman office, and Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan are following suit. While the ombudsman office in Uzbekistan is not yet living up to expectations, there is greater hope that processes under way in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan will produce better results. However, in the absence of an independent judiciary, free media, and an active community of NGOs, these new institutions face an uphill battle. One suspects that the impetus for the creation of such institutions has more to do with appearances in the international community than genuine commitment to human rights at home.

Despite its strategic importance, mineral wealth, and tragic history, Central Asia remains a part of the world that has been largely overlooked by the international community. There is very little public awareness in Canada and elsewhere about events in Central Asia, and even less knowledge about the deteriorating human rights situation and increasingly authoritarian tendencies of the region's leaders.

Under these circumstances, the fledgling human rights organizations in Central Asia look to countries such as Canada for solidarity and assistance. With our rich tradition of democracy and support for human rights at home and abroad, there is no doubt that Canada can offer a lot more than trade and investment in its current engagement in Central Asia. We believe Canada can and should be doing more to support democratic reform and to ensure the protection and promotion of human rights in the region.

• 1020

Having said this, we also recognize that there is no quick fix to the problems in the region. In our view, building a human rights culture in countries where there was no history of democracy and protection of human rights and where human rights is a new term in their vocabulary takes time. It's a long-term process. Trying to do so during a period of tremendous economic and social upheaval is even more difficult. Canada has an important role to play, but we can only be effective if we are willing to increase our investment and involvement and commit to a long-term engagement.

Over the long run, the hope lies in building up democratic institutions and promoting a culture of human rights. Support is needed for strengthening the democratic functioning of parliaments, reinforcing the independence of the judiciary, and establishing independent and effective human rights institutions. Given Canada's particular experience in this field, it makes sense for Canada to support the creation of independent ombudsman offices in the region.

However, strengthening institutions is not enough. No matter how much effort is put into parliaments, the judiciary, or human rights institutions, these energies will be wasted unless a similar effort is put into the emergence of a vibrant civil society capable of mobilizing the public to protect their own interests.

NGOs have a lot to offer. Unfortunately they are often excluded by their governments from international meetings that consider these issues, despite their legitimate interest and expertise. Canada should encourage the inclusion of NGOs in any consultative processes, and Canadians engaged in the region should consult whenever possible with local NGOs. I would encourage the committee to meet with as many representatives of civil society as possible during its trip to the region. I would be happy to provide assistance if you would like to meet with any of our partners.

In the short term, the challenge is to create space necessary for democratic reform. Priority must be given therefore to strategies that tackle restrictions on freedom of association and expression and that create space for independent organizations to operate freely. Until local human rights organizations and the media feel safe to criticize their governments and leaders, it is unlikely we will see any meaningful change in the region. Our experience in Canada and in the rest of the world shows that parliaments, courts, and human rights institutions all need an independent media, active NGOs, and an engaged public to be truly effective.

Canada should use its bilateral and multilateral relations with the countries of the region to express its concerns about human rights and to lift repressive legislation and policies. Canada's membership in the UN Security Council, the UN Commission on Human Rights, the OSCE, and the IMF give it considerable opportunities to exert influence at the multilateral level. Unfortunately our bilateral influence is limited by the low level of diplomatic representation in the region. Nonetheless, when the opportunities arise, Canadian diplomats should urge the governments in the region to take concrete action to remove restrictions on freedom of association and expression and to improve the overall human rights situation.

As mentioned previously, human rights activists work under serious constraints, including a lack of resources, repressive conditions, and isolation from the global human rights community.

• 1025

Canada should work toward building up the capacity of civil society to monitor human rights violations and advocate for change. At the same time, local NGOs need help to build their capacity to do their work effectively. Human rights activists in the region will benefit from increased opportunities for training and sharing experiences with colleagues from the region and other parts of their world. Developing relationships with local NGOs can also help Canada to better understand events in the region and identify appropriate strategies to respond.

One of the most effective ways for Canada to contribute to the democratization process is to support the human rights education initiatives that target schools and state officials. It is particularly important for the long term to target the younger generation by incorporating effective human rights education programs in the schools.

Canada can provide support for training teachers and developing appropriate curriculum materials. In addition to any support provided through ministries of education, Canada should not ignore the important role NGOs are already playing in this area.

Knowledge of human rights principles and the development of human rights values should also be a priority for incorporation into the training of state officials. Given the nature of human rights violations in the region, there is an urgent need to train the police, prison officials, and security forces. While training alone is not going to halt the abuses, experience in other parts of the world has shown that it can have an important impact, particularly when combined with effective monitoring.

In conclusion, there are important strategic, economic and moral reasons for Canada to be concerned about the human rights situation in Central Asia. We believe the committee's attention to these issues is a step in the right direction. The challenge before all of us is to find the most effective ways to encourage a process toward democratization and the full realization of human rights in the region.

In our view, success in this regard requires a greater commitment over the long term on the part of Canada and Canadians. There is a need for our government to speak openly about our concerns in the region, and use its influence to encourage positive changes. At the same time, on behalf of our partners in the region, we urge the Canadian government to increase its support for the activities of independent human rights organizations. Activists in the region have already demonstrated that they are prepared to put in the effort and assume the risks. All they ask of Canadians is that we work with them in providing resources and expertise and sharing experiences.

Thank you very much.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Gurmant Grewal): Thank you very much for the highlights of the sad situation in the region.

We'll go to questions. Mr. Rocheleau.

[Translation]

Mr. Yves Rocheleau (Trois-Rivières, BQ): Thank you very much for meeting with us this morning. Your presentation was very interesting, but very disturbing as well, since we are soon going to be travelling to this part of the world which seems to have its share of problems, while remaining somewhat of an enigma to us.

From a socioeconomic perspective, you speak of poverty and unemployment, on the one hand, and of senior officials and educational institutions on the other hand. A representative of SNC-Lavalin informed us that in this part of the world, the local work force is highly educated. That's hard to understand when at the same time, we hear, from people like yourself, that human rights are either violated or are non-existent.

• 1030

Could you give us some kind of socioeconomic profile of this region and tell us if the situation had improved or worsened since the breakup of the Soviet Union? Has the situation improved any? What role does the State play? What about social programs and environmental concerns? Where do matters stand as far as society is concerned?

We hear a lot about human rights, but how is society actually functioning under the circumstances? Do you understand my question?

[English]

Mr. Alex Neve: I have to admit I actually can't answer your question. It goes back to my earlier comment that I am not an expert on the region. I'm simply not sufficiently steeped in that economic and historical context to be able to give you the answer. I can consult with our researchers to see if they have some views that might be helpful to you on that point, though.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Gurmant Grewal): Can you provide that information as a follow-up later?

Mr. Alex Neve: I can possibly do that, if they have something to add.

The Acting Chair (Mr. Gurmant Grewal): Thanks.

Madam Holcak, do you want to comment?

Ms. Ria Holcak: I'll try to comment from my own observations. I haven't done extensive research on it to give a comprehensive or well-founded overview, but from what I've seen in the region the poverty is very visible. As I mentioned in my presentation, there are also large differences and sharp contrasts. You see Mercedes and BMWs on the roads, yet there is very shabby housing, and poor people try to sell handfuls of seeds to earn some money.

I agree with the comment that the population, in general, is well educated. It's the legacy of the Soviet system, which had a very good school system. However, human rights education was not part of it, so in that regard it's a new area. We were very pleasantly surprised how eager the teachers in Kazakhstan were to embrace these new ideas and incorporate them into their curricula in the schools.

When you travel through the region, please go beyond the capital cities. Go beyond Tashkent and Almaty, where you can see conditions are a little better. In the country it is really sad. I would encourage you to go to local markets to see the level of trade and how they live. It's very eye-opening.

Economic progress, from what I've heard, started quite a while ago, at the beginning of the 1990s, particularly in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan. A lot of investment poured in, but somehow the trend has stopped and they feel there has been a regression. Again, the economic situation is not my area of expertise, but that's what I've heard.

[Translation]

Mr. Yves Rocheleau: Do these countries have social, health care, pension or education programs in place?

[English]

Ms. Ria Holcak: Education is free, although they have some private institutions that were opened after independence. In general, a lack of funding can be seen.

Speaking about pensions, there have been protests by pensioners in Kazakhstan specifically, where they haven't been paid for a very long time. It's sporadic. It's not well put in place. There are certain structures to support social programs, but they are lacking in funding mostly. For example, in Kyrgyzstan, where we work with a group working with children, I know that civil society is trying to help. For example, a lot of children, teenagers, have to work during the day to support their families because the income is so low. They miss a lot of school. They cannot attend classes, so these NGO groups help to set up evening classes for children like that so they can get some education after the business hours.

• 1035

[Translation]

Mr. Yves Rocheleau: Can we assume that the predominant religion in the region is the Muslim faith?

[English]

Ms. Ria Holcak: Again, I only can comment from what I've heard, but yes, the Muslim religion is prevalent in the region. I would say out of the three countries I visited, Kazakhstan, Kyrghyzstan, and Uzbekistan, the most religious people are in Uzbekistan. Islam, the Muslim religion, is most visible and a large portion of the population is Muslim. In Kazakhstan, for example, it's not as strong. There was a very large Russian population during the Soviet era; actually they were in the majority in the country. The Muslim religion has been weakened. I spoke with one person at the monument to a religious hero and he said “During Soviet times we didn't pray. We didn't know how to. We were not used to it. Now we can.”

This is only one example of the situation. As we heard, there are certain pockets in the region where the concentration of Muslim population is denser. For example, in Farghona Valley specifically, those groups are more....

The Chair: Please excuse me for being late. I got trapped. I won't tell you why, but life around here is always crazy. Part of the craziness is our question period.

I'd like to pass to Dr. Patry.

Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): I'll share my time with my colleagues.

Thank you very much for being here this morning with us. I noted in your comments, Mrs. Holcak, on page 2, and I'm going to quote you, “There has been an increase in poverty and unemployment and a deterioration in governance and the rule of law”. Knowing what it was before their independence, I think your comments are very serious. If you're talking of a diminishing in the rule of law, I think it's quite serious and there's a lot of work to be done.

If I understand your comments, you also said that everything is related to the training, training everybody over there now. Knowing that Canada has very little bilateral involvement there and is working with a multilateral one, how can you explain the role of OSCE? Is it really working well, or can it be improved, the OSCE? Which group of NGOs should we really focus on to try to help human rights and everything over there in this area?

Ms. Ria Holcak: As you may know, OSCE missions have different agendas.

Mr. Bernard Patry: It's more security. Yes.

Ms. Ria Holcak: More security and elections, and also human rights education training, but their missions are specific to the countries. Each mission in each country has a specific mandate. We met with the head of OSCE in Almaty, for example, and I've been in contact with the head of OSCE in Tashkent. They are doing some programs in Tashkent for women and in Kazakhstan, in Almaty, on elections. I don't remember what exactly they said. However, their capabilities or their financial resources and resources in general are limited. They cannot possibly do everything. They are working with civil society. They are working with NGOs and they're trying their best, but their strong side in their work is election monitoring.

• 1040

Mr. Bernard Patry: I understand, but my preoccupation is the fact that if the international community wants to put pressure on these countries, it needs to start somewhere, and sometimes NGOs are not enough. You have Amnesty International and OSCE. If you pass through OSCE, they could put a lot of pressure on these countries to improve everything you see with the media and the NGOs.

I feel the future of these countries is scary. They're going to produce oil and be able to sell the oil and gas, but I'm not even sure that the population will benefit from this. I really don't think so. I think it's going to be the opposite; it's going to be worse. If you get more money, it's going to be worse.

Mr. Alex Neve: If I could, I think your point about the importance of making as much use as possible of multilateral institutions is an important one. The OSCE, despite some weaknesses and imperfections and inconsistency from time to time, is obviously one of the most important international bodies that's active in the region and that has the capacity to contribute to the training. And I'd add to that in a general sense that institution building needs to be supported and encouraged in the area.

I would encourage Canada, as a member of the OSCE, to encourage the OSCE to do more and to do better in addressing the kinds of issues you've heard from us this morning, but others that you'll hear as well.

Mr. Bernard Patry: Yes.

Mr. Alex Neve: Another body not to forget is the Council of Europe, which particularly for the states of the south Caucasus is a very important body. I highlighted the fact, for instance, that Georgia has recently joined the Council of Europe. Canada is not a member of the Council of Europe, but we do have observer status within the Council of Europe. We follow it. We're active within it. We have discussions with those states, so that's another body to which we could devote some attention, which is a body that I think can play a very important role in advancing improvements on a lot of these fronts as well.

Mr. Bernard Patry: Thank you.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Paradis (Brome—Missisquoi, Lib.): First of all, I'd like to thank you for your presentation to the committee this morning. Hearing from a variety of witnesses and then visiting the south Caucasus and Central Asia will help us to formulate a valid policy for dealing with matters in the part of the world.

I have two very general questions for Ms. Holcak.

First of all, what can the members of the committee who will be travelling shortly to the south Caucasus and Central Asia do to help matters progress in the area? Earlier, you mentioned international agencies like the OSCE and the Council of Europe, but is there something committee members can do on site to achieve progress on the human rights front?

Secondly, given that these countries have new or emerging economies, how can we reconcile the human rights issue with potential Canadian support of these new or emerging economies?

[English]

The Chair: We're letting you choose. We're watching your eye contact to see which way it's going to go.

Ms. Ria Holcak: Yes, I would like to respond to the first question, on what can the members of the committee do.

Mr. Denis Paradis: Being there.

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Ms. Ria Holcak: Just by going there, talking with people, meeting organizations like OSCE, speaking with people on the ground, meeting with the civil society, with NGOs, I think you will get a better picture about the situation.

For example, I was very sad to find out, when I first started going to the region, that Canadian diplomatic representation in the region is so small. There is a small embassy in Almaty that services four countries. There is no officer who is designated to work on human rights. They are very short-staffed. If we don't have even a representation in the country, how can we have a pretty good foot in the door or on the ground?

So I would like you to look at evaluating our diplomatic representation there and perhaps recommend to put some resources in, etc. However, I've heard that there is going to be a small embassy established—or maybe it has been already—in Uzbekistan, which is a great thing to hear, because it is specifically in Uzbekistan that I think we, Canada, need to have some representation.

Many times it's very difficult to make out about different stories we hear if they are rumours or who is who. There is a lack of transparency many times. I think that diplomatic representation would help.

Mr. Denis Paradis: Thank you.

Mr. Alex Neve: If I could follow up on that, I think, as you say, on the ground, during your time there, there's obviously limited opportunity for you to take dramatic steps. But I think there are probably a number of very real steps you can take. One I would encourage is to take advantage of any opportunities that do come your way to raise these issues with authorities you'll have an opportunity to meet with. And that by no means needs to be in a confrontational manner.

There's a whole host of recommendations that have been made to governments in the area. By ourselves, for instance, in the reports I've referred to, we always conclude with a number of recommendations for reform by United Nations bodies such as the committee against torture.

I think that probably among those recommendations are some very useful ones you could raise if you have an opportunity to have a meeting with officials from the ministry of justice in Kazakhstan or the commissioner of police affairs in Azerbaijan, or whatever the case may be.

The other point, which I think Ms. Holcak has made very eloquently, but which I'd like to underline, is absolutely take advantage of any opportunities you can to meet with, engage with, have dialogue with, and support civil society. There are some incredibly courageous but to a certain degree beleaguered human rights defenders operating in the region, some of whom are doing very important, very credible work, but at considerable risk and cost. An opportunity for you to meet with them, hear their concerns, and initiate a process of dialogue would be very valuable.

Ms. Holcak has offered her advice as to NGO partners you might want to meet with. I could certainly pursue that as well with our research department to provide you similarly with some suggested NGO contacts.

Mr. Denis Paradis: Thank you very much.

The Chair: Before I go to Mr. Grewal, I would like to follow up on the OSCE issue, in which I'll declare my interest. I'm the treasurer of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly, so I sit on the executive of the OSCE parliament. And I see the representatives from these various countries regularly, Turkey, all of them, at the meetings of the OSCE. We've been told by quite a few people who come before us that in many ways, particularly Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan are now really executive-run governments, so maybe the parliamentarians are virtually irrelevant as to what they do.

• 1050

Could you give us a bit of an overview as to how we could tie in our work at the Parliamentary Assembly of the OSCE, where we have an opportunity of dealing with OSCE parliamentarians from all of these countries, with the work we're trying to do?

I don't know the extent to which that's either fruitful or possible. I know it's a big question. It's very speculative. A lot depends on the impact the legislatures have within the systems. The more powerful the legislatures are, the more worth there is in working strongly with the legislative members. If the legislatures have little or no influence, then our work with them becomes relatively less fruitful.

Mr. Alex Neve: I think that's a crucial point. I think we've both highlighted the considerable degree to which that varies across the region, including instances where we now have a president for life in Turkmenistan, with parliaments of fifty parliamentarians chosen by him, with opposition political activity banned.

It would behoove the OSCE and the parliamentary assembly you're discussing to look for the openings. There's probably not one answer that would apply to all of those countries, but—

The Chair: Those parliamentarians come to the parliamentary assembly and sit on the human rights committee, for example, but the human rights committee in the OSCE seems to spend a lot of its time focusing on Turkey. That seems to be the country that's the hot spot. A lot of the northern European countries are focusing on Turkey because of the EU and everything. We don't seem to focus much on the human rights issues in so many of these other countries, perhaps because there's less information available and it's not as high on the CNN radar screen, or whatever.

I feel a sense of personal frustration as to how much benefit one's actually getting in working on these issues. Maybe I'm trying to get some comfort from you to tell me to keep doing it because something may pay off.

Mr. Alex Neve: I can assure you that Amnesty International hasn't given up on the OSCE. We do see—

The Chair: You do know there's a parliamentary assembly as well as the government body, do you?

Mr. Alex Neve: Yes.

The Chair: I sometimes wonder if anybody even knows it exists.

Mr. Alex Neve: We follow it, and we participate in it actively ourselves. I absolutely share your frustrations, though, and have had some concern, as you've expressed it, that the OSCE has not yet put the countries in this region sufficiently on the radar screen. I think if things started to coalesce a bit more within the OSCE on these countries, there is the potential that some good work could start to happen. Don't lose heart.

The Chair: No. Maybe it's that the focus has largely been on election monitoring, and it's just now starting to get into economic and other issues. Maybe there will be greater chances later.

Enough of that rumination. We'll go on to Mr. Grewal, who has been waiting very patiently for his turn.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and congratulations to you for your position. Now we know where to go, because you're the treasurer of the organization.

The Chair: That just means I get to spend the money that you, as a parliamentarian, give to them. That's all. It just means I try to harass our own Parliament to pay our dues on time.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: We should.

I appreciate the testimony. It is very shocking to hear what's happening in the region.

In my view, all these things we listened to—the absence of an independent judiciary, oppression of religion and women's rights, political oppression, human rights, the media—all these situations are very disheartening, coupled with the corruption and fraud in the region and the situation with the prisons: that even drinking water is denied to prisoners, or they're beaten and tortured, and so on. The situation of refugees is also compounding the whole issue. On top of that, there are frequent ceasefires and sporadic violence in the region.

• 1055

I believe we are expecting sort of a civil war or a situation that can erupt at any time, because in modern times it's difficult to oppress the population like that, with their terrible human rights record to the extent that we heard.

Do you agree with my view that we are expecting bigger trouble in the future?

Mr. Alex Neve: I think the potential is certainly there. You're quite right that a number of countries in the region have recently been through civil unrest—we could even say civil war, in some contexts—where the truces and ceasefires that are in place do hold today but in some situations are particularly tenuous, areas of Georgia and Azerbaijan, for instance, where there are regions of the country that are now controlled by forces other than the government.

Certainly what we would urge on governments in the region is that when you disregard and violate human rights, you do so at a peril, the peril that civil unrest only grows, and ultimately, the real risk of more widespread violence, more widespread unrest, and civil war is absolutely there.

So the harsh repressive tactics that are used to suppress opposition parties in some countries, to deal with the perception that Islamist groups are on the rise in some countries and seeking greater power, ultimately do not do anything to further the goals of peace, stability, and human rights protection, and quite the opposite, take us down exactly the contrary path.

It's therefore really crucial to ensure that human rights evolve, that the human rights of all are respected and enjoyed, even groups that may be really challenging the government, may be challenging society.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Okay. What I gather at this moment is that to prevent any future civil unrest or conflict, even to the extent of civil war, this is a time at which the international community must take action. Otherwise, if we don't take timely action, it will be too late.

To do that, I think Canada's role becomes very important. In my view, the first step we should take is to establish a strong diplomatic presence in the region. Of course, the trade and bilateral relations, investment, and those things do help in the long run.

First, would you agree that we must establish an active diplomatic presence in the region?

Secondly, what other factors, based on priority, would you highlight so that the committee members can make some useful, workable recommendations to the government, on which we must take action? What would those recommendations be?

Thirdly, the committee members are going to a volatile region where there's a big difference in culture. Even though we would like to talk about human rights and other aspects related to human rights, in my view, we are going into a country that is as different as day and night from the Americas. So when we go there, what would be appropriate? They will feel offended when we talk about human rights, particularly the politicians, so what should our approach be in tackling this and talking to them?

So what priorities, recommendations, and approach we should have?

The Chair: Maybe I could just say—not to interrupt the question, because this is very helpful—you might reflect on this after you leave and wish you had said this or that. If so, please write and tell us, because these are exactly the types of concrete suggestions we'd like to get. If you miss an opportunity to tell us now, send us something later.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for that information.

Ms. Ria Holcak: My only comment on what you said is that I support wholeheartedly that diplomatic representation in the region be enlarged, strengthened. I think it's a very important step to take.

• 1100

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Thank you.

Mr. Alex Neve: I certainly endorse that. Increased presence—increased diplomatic presence in particular—is obviously giving us a greater capacity to start to take action, to monitor, to engage with the governments around these issues.

In terms of advice as to what approach to use, concerns about human rights violations are always difficult issues to raise with governments. I think we've reached a point where governments are now more and more accustomed to having these issues put on the table. I would recommend that you do take advantage of as many opportunities as possible to raise human rights issues with the government representatives you'll be meeting with, but that you raise those issues in a constructive and positive way.

As I said earlier, there are ample positive recommendations that have been made by a number of bodies, including United Nations bodies, that give you an opportunity to put a human rights issue on the table. It doesn't need to be done in a context of “What about this case? Why did you do that? Why did you do this to that person?” It would be “We see that these various United Nations human rights bodies have made the following recommendations. We'd be interested to discuss those with you and we encourage you to act on those recommendations” and those sorts of things. I think those give you a framework within which concerns can be raised as constructively as possible.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Other than establishing diplomatic missions....

I know I only have 15 seconds left, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: Go ahead.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: What would be the priorities our Canadian government should establish so that we go with a mission to accomplish?

Mr. Alex Neve: Well, there are three that come to mind quite quickly from my perspective. One is to encourage states to allow human rights organizations to operate openly and freely. In some states that means repealing legislation that restricts or bans human rights organizations. In other states it means stopping practices that intimidate, threaten, and harass human rights activists.

A second would be urging states to take concrete measures to curtail impunity for human rights violations. The kinds of concerns we've highlighted for you go on in large part because states do not take measures to punish and penalize individuals who do violate human rights. Again, a lot of recommendations have been made as to very concrete ways in which states can move forward to tackle the climate, the culture of impunity that reigns in so many countries.

The third would be that there are some very concrete recommendations available to you that should be impressed upon states in terms of ending practices of torture. Very concrete steps can be taken around limiting things like incommunicado detention, ensuring investigation of allegations that are made of torture and ill treatment, allowing inspections and investigations of places of detention where allegations of torture are made. Some of those in particular are highlighted in the recent report we've issued on Georgia, which dealt with concerns about torture in Georgia.

Those would be three immediate priorities I think of: human rights defenders, impunity, and torture.

Ms. Ria Holcak: I would add to that. As I mentioned in my presentation, we feel very strongly that independent human rights institutions—independent is the key word—should be put in place in these countries.

Why am I stressing “independent”? For example, Kazakhstan has its commission for human rights under the president, but the report on the human rights situation cannot be released unless the president approves it. What kind of independence is that? Can they freely and truly comment and report on human rights issues and abuses in the country? I would encourage them and perhaps offer assistance in establishing new human rights institutions. As I mentioned, they are working on ombudsman laws in Kazakhstan and Kurdistan at the moment.

• 1105

When I spoke with people, with NGOs, they said, “What's the use? Look at what happened in Uzbekistan. They have an ombudsman and it doesn't make any difference. It's going to be only another institution with no effect.” So I do stress the word “independent” so that there is a hope, there is a channel they can use for protection of human rights.

Mr. Gurmant Grewal: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: Thank you.

[Translation]

I believe Mr. Rocheleau has several questions.

Mr. Yves Rocheleau: I have two questions, Mr. Chairman.

You mentioned the United Nations on two occasions. First of all, does the UN maintain a significant presence in the region and secondly, how do the people of this region feel about the West and westerners?

The Chair: Is that a personal or a general question, Mr. Rocheleau?

Mr. Yves Rocheleau: It's a general question.

The Chair: Undoubtedly, they adore parliamentarians.

[English]

Ms. Ria Holcak: I can only comment on countries I'm familiar with. As far as a UN presence in the region is concerned, there are United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees offices in all three countries I visited. UNDP has a strong presence. So UNDP and UNHCR are assisting governments with various programs. It depends on the country.

[Translation]

Mr. Yves Rocheleau: Have they set up permanent missions in these countries?

[English]

Ms. Ria Holcak: They have permanent missions, yes. Specifically, UNHCR is quite involved with civil society, with NGOs working on complete management on various things, for example. From their reports, the situation is quite tense and should be addressed in terms of refugees and displaced people.

Perhaps you would be interested in knowing the situation in Kazakhstan. I don't know if many people know about it. I found it quite interesting and quite sad when I heard about it. After independence in Kazakhstan, there was a mass movement in population. The ethnic Russians and Germans and the Jewish minority who could leave left. About two million people left.

On the other hand, President Nazarbayev invited all the Kazakhs to come back to their homeland. About 180,000 of them came, but what they found was that they were trapped in a very unhappy situation where they lived in very basic conditions. The assistance they get is very minimal, so most of them live in poverty.

Wherever they lived before—Afghanistan, Mongolia, China—they didn't speak Russian. They came to Kazakhstan hoping they would integrate with the population. They are Kazakhs but they have language limitations. Although Kazakh is the national language, not everybody speaks Kazakh. The official language used is Russian. So those people have obstacles in finding jobs, in assimilating, in incorporating with the population.

• 1110

I met with the head of an international organization for migration in Almaty who told me about the situation, and I found it very sad. There are two million Kazakhs living abroad in other countries on top of that, so that doesn't help the situation. I'm not going to go into details, but they face all kinds of problems and limitations for integration and finding jobs, etc.

The Chair: So they don't provide an economic benefit to Kazakhstan the way the Palestinian diaspora does to Palestine, or other communities that are working abroad and sending money home to help the local economy.

Ms. Ria Holcak: No, not really.

What I heard was that those people who came, for example, from Mongolia sold everything they had in Mongolia and came to Kazakhstan. They were not provided with sufficient means to sustain themselves, so they spent their money and are now living in poverty. They are in the south of Kazakhstan, concentrated in certain areas. It's a very unhappy situation.

Mr. Alex Neve: I'd echo Ms. Holcak's emphasis that the UNHCR has been a very important UN presence in the region for several years. This goes back probably at least five or six years. The UNHCR has paid considerable attention to refugee and displacement issues in all the states of the former Soviet Union. They have special programs and conferences that have given a lot of attention to that issue.

It's unquestionably one of the very important human rights issues in the region. There are a number of countries in which refugee and displacement issues are grave human rights challenges.

Getting back to earlier questions about what might be open to you on the ground during the visit, the opportunity to meet with as many of the UNHCR delegations as possible would, I'm sure, benefit you greatly. I have no doubt that the UNHCR office here would do everything they could to facilitate that.

In terms of how westerners are perceived, I have nothing I can say on that other than that there certainly have been times when we have expressed a concern about human rights violations that have involved not necessarily westerners, but foreigners in the country, including foreign journalists and foreign human rights monitors.

I refer, for instance, to the incident last year in February 1999, when a researcher with Human Rights Watch, a well-known international human rights organization, was deported from Turkmenistan. There have been killings of members of the United Nations observer mission in Tajikistan. So there have been some instances. I don't know that it's a widespread concern, but it's obviously something you'll need to be aware of and get good advice about.

The Chair: Thank you.

Ms. Ria Holcak: For example, I know that in Almaty there is a sizeable community of westerners, diplomats, and various Europeans and North Americans. There are even universities and colleges where the instruction is in English. So westerners are not exactly a novelty any more, and for the most part, as far as I know, they are well perceived and embraced. I can attest that Canadians have a very good reputation there, and we've been very welcome.

The Chair: Thank you.

Ms. Ria Holcak: Thank you.

The Chair: Maybe I can just ask a few very brief questions, and then I think we'll be able to draw this session to a close.

In regard to CIDA programs in the area—maybe you could give this some thought and then you could write us about it—what types of programs are there? I'm getting a flavour from what you're telling us that it would be in human rights and good governance issues that CIDA could play an important role at this time, rather than digging for wells or.... I don't know, maybe it should be education for young women. I'd be interested in your comments as to the types of CIDA activities we might want to encourage in the region based on your experience.

• 1115

Ms. Ria Holcak: From our perspective, the possibilities that we see open to the programs of CIDA could be helpful. As I mentioned, some women's groups are perceived as non-threatening. They don't have a political agenda, and therefore they are supported by the government or left alone. So through those groups there is a good channel to spread human rights education and information. Women's groups could be very effective in conflict prevention and conflict management. The role of women should not be undermined in those areas.

What we see as a very good long-term investment is the education of children in schools. That's where our organization started working, and we are going to develop further programs. We feel it's not something that is going to disappear. The school system and education is going to stay, and the sooner the young generation is exposed to ideas, the better.

The Chair: Good. That's helpful.

Ms. Ria Holcak: I would like to comment just a little bit further. CIDA's programs should not be lopsided. I think there is a place for helping in the technical aspect and in commerce, but not exclusively.

The Chair: We were told by one of the mining company executives who was here earlier that quite often when the corporations are doing investment in the area, they're required by the state to do additional things. One of the mining executives said that they have a bakery, they have a way to employ people, and they do things as part of the agreement they sign with the state. It involves hiring local people, etc. So there's a whole host of associated activities around them. Has that been your experience as well?

Ms. Ria Holcak: I haven't come across any, but I think it's a great idea. As we say, we want to be good corporate citizens at home, but I think we should do the same practice abroad, not to be perceived as exploiters of local resources, but also to give something to the community.

The Chair: Subject to that, would you encourage trade and investment in the area?

Ms. Ria Holcak: Certainly there is a great potential for it.

Mr. Alex Neve: I think the crucial piece from our perspective is that it proceed in a way that is true to human rights principles. Canadian businesses that operate in the region, whether or not they're legislated by national laws to do so, should refrain from doing anything that will contribute to human rights abuses in a region. And secondly, they should do everything at their disposal to be good human rights actors in the region, to be agents for change on the human rights front to the degree possible. There's more and more awareness in the corporate sector of how important that is. Some companies feel a little bit more up to the challenge than others. If it's an issue that's being considered, certainly it should be encouraged to be the mentality that guides investment in the region.

The Chair: Go beyond just not paying bribes and things like that, but actually try to take a positive role.

Mr. Alex Neve: Absolutely.

The Chair: That's interesting.

I have one last question. Do you know if any of the American political parties are active in the region? I know that in the Balkans, for example, NDI, the National Democratic Institute, has offices, and it helped in the last Croatian election to train people. The Republican Party has an institute too. I know that various political parties have these institutes, and they have paid representatives in various countries to help with the formation of parties and the democratic process. Do you know if there is anything like that in any of these countries we're going to be going to?

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Mr. Alex Neve: Not that I know of.

Ms. Ria Holcak: Not that I know of either, but I think it would be a good point for research to find out.

The Chair: We can find out from them. I know that in the Balkans they are very active, but they may not be there. It's a question of resources, as was pointed out.

On behalf of all the committee members, I'd like to thank you very much for coming this morning. I have to personally say, and I'm sure I reflect the committee's view, that the work that Amnesty and the Canadian Human Rights Foundation does is really important for Canadians. I wish more Canadians were aware of the fact that we have people like you who have vast experience in an area of the world where you're helping people and trying to bring up the standard of living. It's fabulous. Thank you for coming this morning and sharing your experiences with us. We appreciate it very much. Maybe when we've finished our trip, if we have more questions, we'll ask you to come back.

Ms. Ria Holcak: It was a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Mr. Alex Neve: Thank you for the opportunity.

The Chair: We're adjourned until Tuesday, May 2. Don't anybody groan with horror at that thought.

Colleagues, between now and then we'll have to try to sort out the business of the trip and who's going to be able to go on it. A lot depends on the opposition members. In terms of the Liberal side, we have more people who want to go than spaces available. But if we can get more opposition, we could get more members going. We're working on that. We'll keep in contact with you. Thank you.

We're adjourned until May 2.