NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, December 2, 1997

• 1530

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Order, please.

I would first like to welcome everybody to our meeting this afternoon. I also welcome Lieutenant-General Crabbe to our meeting.

One housekeeping duty before we hear the witnesses is the travel budget for our.... Yes?

Mr. John O'Reilly (Victoria—Haliburton, Lib.): I move that the committee adopt the budget of $246,964 for its travels inside Canada and to Bosnia in relation to its study on social and economic challenges facing members of the Canadian Armed Forces, as circulated.

The Chairman: Discussion? Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): There are two things wrong with this. First, it has never been brought to our attention before now. Second, the two motions should be separated. In fact, I would like this motion to be brought back at the next meeting so we've had a chance to discuss it. We'll just vote against them now if they are brought forward like that.

The Chairman: If I understand it correctly, it's item 9, going to Bosnia, you object to.

Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Correct. We don't even have a copy.

Mr. Leon Benoit: All we have is a motion like that.

The Chairman: The budget was sent to your office.

Mr. Art Hanger: When was it sent?

Mr. Leon Benoit: I haven't received it.

Mr. Art Hanger: In view of the fact that a number of the troops are going to be coming home from Bosnia in January, I think there's going to be ample opportunity, if we're going to look at the quality of life over there, to speak to those who have been in the theatre for six months. I question the value of having to travel over there just to talk about quality of life issues. On that basis, I don't think we can support that motion.

Mr. John Richardson (Perth—Middlesex, Lib.): Were you planning to go to Bosnia again after the joint committee trip?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr. John Richardson: Another one.

The Chairman: From what I can understand, John, it won't cost the committee any money, because the military will be taking care of the flight—

Mr. John Richardson: They are going to fly us.

The Chairman: Yes. I think the only thing we pay for is the hotel and the per diem.

Mr. Art Hanger: Mr. Chairman, I still question the need, especially if you're looking at military personnel who have been over there six months, for us to go and question those who are over in the theatre for three or four months. I just don't understand the purpose behind it, especially if you are talking about quality of life.

• 1535

Given the fact that you have all of the destinations lumped into one motion, we're again going to have to vote against it.

The Chairman: Mr. Pratt.

Mr. David Pratt (Nepean—Carleton, Lib.): I'd like to speak in favour of the motion.

I think there are at least a few of us at this table—I don't see Hec Clouthier here—such as Judi and myself, who have never been to a theatre of operations where Canadian soldiers are active. From the standpoint of our knowledge of how the armed forces work and interact with the work we do in the committee here, I think it's an important learning experience for us, so I'm definitely in support.

The Chairman: Judi.

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): I would just echo what Mr. Pratt has said. One of the criticisms we get as parliamentarians is that we don't go and see for ourselves first-hand. I think it's one thing to talk to them after they're back, but it's quite another to actually be there on-site and to see what they're going through. That certainly affects my decision on what their quality of life is.

Mr. John O'Reilly: As the mover of the motion, I had already gone over the budget in detail, and I had no question of Bosnia, although I indicated to you that I'm unable to go.

I feel that parliamentarians are trying to experience the military way of life. I think that going into a submarine, onto a ship, and flying—doing the things that members of the military go through every day—and visiting one of their theatres of operation is vital to this committee in doing its report.

As I said to you, I have no reason to want to go to Bosnia at that particular time. I'm not able to go, so not having that trip in mind, I felt it was incumbent upon the members of Parliament to experience as much of the military life as they could in order to make reasoned and justified findings at these hearings.

The Chairman: Two more short comments. Mr. Benoit and Madame Venne.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Again, we need time to examine this proposal before it's brought forth. If the motion is left on the floor, we'll vote against it, and that's fine if that's the way you want to deal with it. We need time to examine it, and the two should be separate.

I would love to go to Bosnia. I would probably learn something. But I don't believe it justifies this trip. As for saying there's no cost, I think the military budget is just stretched to the limited already, so for us to be spending their money in this way is completely out of line.

A voice: I agree.

The Chairman: Madame Venne.

[Translation]

Ms. Pierrette Venne (Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, BQ): You'll forgive my ignorance, but do we have an Armed Forces base in Yellowknife?

The Chairman: I think we have about 30 military in Yellowknife. By the way, it will be just the researcher and I going to Yellowknife.

Ms. Pierrette Venne: It was indicated here on the list. So I thought we were all going. It's just you going?

The Chairman: Yes.

Ms. Pierrette Venne: Okay, fine.

The Chairman: In my experience, we go to Vancouver and Alberta, but we always forget about the Great North. Though I think one committee has already gone there.

Ms. Pierrette Venne: So you're going to represent us.

[English]

A voice: You're going to Yellowknife?

The Chairman: I'm going to Yellowknife, yes. If anybody else wants to come....

There's a motion on the floor that the committee adopt the budget of $246,964 for its travel inside Canada and to Bosnia in relation to its study on social and economic challenges facing members of the Canadian Forces.

Mr. Art Hanger: Mr. Bertrand, can I have a point of order here? I'd like a recorded vote on this particular motion.

The Chairman: Sure.

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Mr. David Pratt: Just for clarification, is there any particular reason why this vote can't be delayed by a day or two? Is it absolutely imperative?

The Chairman: We could delay until Thursday.

Is everybody agreeable until Thursday?

Some hon. members: Yes.

Mr. David Pratt: Suspend it until Thursday then, if everybody's agreeable.

The Chairman: Okay, that's fine. Until Thursday afternoon at 3.30.

General, it's your turn now.

Lieutenant General R.R. Crabbe (Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs.

I'm very pleased to be here today to speak on a key concern of the Canadian forces, and that is the impact of the quality of life resources provided to our soldiers, sailors, and aviators and their families, particularly as it affects operational capability.

[Translation]

Your agreement to undertake a review of the social and economic challenges facing members of the Canadian Forces is an important step to determine the appropriate level of support that our people deserve.

We think that the quality of life resources provided to our troops and their families has improved in many areas. Unfortunately, there are gaps that remain in the level of support provided that need to be addressed thereby enhancing our operational capability now and in the future.

As the Deputy Chief of the Defence staff, I am directly responsible to the Chief of the Defence staff, for the conduct of Canadian Forces operations. Although just appointed to this position, I have extensive operational experience, most recently in Ex-Yugoslavia.

[English]

Within the Department of National Defence and the Canadian forces, primacy of operations is a fundamental principle. Executing and carrying out the roles assigned by our government on behalf of Canadians is, after all, the raison d'être of the Canadian forces. It follows that programs that affect our operational capability are of major concern and significance to all of us.

Although the assistant deputy minister for personnel, Lieutenant General Kinsman, is responsible for the quality of life programs, I will address the impact of our current programs in support of our troops deployed in operations.

In the next 20 minutes I'll set the scene from an operational perspective to highlight our deployments and the risks faced by our personnel, review our current quality of life programs and assess the impact of these programs on our operational capability, and identify some areas of concern that need to be addressed.

[Translation]

Although Canada is not faced with a direct military threat, the global security situation continues to be unstable and unpredictable; there are civil wars and conflicts between states every day. We have a major interest in the global security situation as, in an unstable, unpredictable world, our values and interests are threatened.

At home, the Department has been challenged by dramatic downsizing—the reduction of 28,000 personnel over a ten year period. To cope effectively with this reality, there has been major re-engineering that has resulted in new structures, particularly headquarters, and base closures.

To date, headquarters have been reduced by 45% and further cuts are planned. The impact of successive budget cuts has been significant as we have strived to maintain and, indeed, improve our operational capability, within a 23% reduction in the Defence budget.

[English]

The global situation, coupled with the impact of our internal changes, has created a climate of uncertainty for our personnel.

Within this challenging environment we must be prepared to carry out the various tasks assigned by the government. To do so, we demand that all of our personnel be available for operations. Our soldiers, sailors, and aviators are required to deploy on short notice for extended periods in high-risk areas anywhere in the world.

The unlimited liability aspect of service to Canada by members of the forces is unique. The demands on our people are also a demand on their families. I'm proud to say that our personnel have clearly met the challenge through their total commitment to the forces and Canada. A brief survey of our recent operations will illustrate this commitment.

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In the last 48 years, Canada has participated in 36 overseas missions, the majority of which were under the UN flag. Since 1989 there has been a considerable increase in both the numbers of missions and the risk factor to our personnel, as experienced during the Gulf War and operations in Africa, Haiti, and the Balkans.

The traditional peacekeeping missions with clear mandates that are respected by all of the involved parties are certainly less prevalent today. Peacemaking and peacekeeping operations have been characterized by complex mandates and rules of engagement in regions where active fighting by belligerents has been the norm. Canadians have been shot at, taken hostage, killed, and wounded through indiscriminate small arms fire, artillery fire, and mines.

As one measure of the increase of the risk of our recent missions, 104 Canadians have died in the service of peace. Since 1992, our deaths from operational deployments have increased to an average of four per year. The uncertainty of the situation faced by our people on deployments into war-torn regions has a significant impact not only on the servicemen and women, but on their families as well. Add to this the emotional and psychological aspects and I believe it's fair to say that Canadian forces members have indeed been subjected to war and devastation of significant proportions.

At the peak in 1993, Canada had 4,641 members from all three environments deployed on overseas operations. As most of our operational tasks are six-month deployments, in effect there were over 9,000 personnel committed to operations that year.

Even more telling is the commitment this decade. Since 1990, over 42,000 sailors, soldiers, and aviators have participated in international operations. For every individual overseas, there is one who is undergoing essential training prior to deployment, to take his or her place, and there is another one who has just returned to the normal routine of training, courses, and taskings within Canada. Furthermore, the behind-the-scenes support in providing the logistic and administrative support has placed additional demands on our air crews, supply ships, and logistics units in Canada.

[Translation]

To cope with this high tempo of operations, we have turned to our reserves to make up for the shortfall. They have done very well but, they, like their regular forces comrades, have had to face horrific situations thus they and their families have been equally affected by these stressful situations.

Last month there were 2,310 personnel committed to fifteen peace support and other missions around the world. With the completion of our mission in Haiti and the return of the CF-18s from Aviano, our deployed numbers will be approximately 1,576 by Christmas, although this is a significant reduction since 1993, it is still a large contribution.

[English]

What about the future? Experience has shown that there has been and always will be a demand for organizations such as the United Nations to intervene in the world's trouble spots. Canada's armed forces will remain at a high state of readiness in order to respond to the next call upon our services by the Government of Canada.

Demanding domestic operations such as aid to the civil authority, civil disasters, humanitarian assistance, support to fisheries, and drug interdiction operations have also contributed to the added stress on both the individual and family through increased time away from home. Let me cite the Oka crises in 1990, the Saguenay floods of 1996, and the southern Manitoba flooding of 1997. Operation Saguenay involved over 500 personnel, including specialist engineers who are in high demand for all of our operations. Operation Assistance in Manitoba involved over 8,500 troops from all three services. This operation has been described as the single largest deployment involving the forces since the Korean War.

Of particular relevance, one unit stopped training to fight the floods in Manitoba and then deployed to Bosnia 40 days later. Another unit heading for Gagetown for training was turned around and redirected to Manitoba.

• 1550

As you can appreciate, the tempo and risk levels of operations have been very high throughout the 1990s. Lengthy family separations for both pre-deployment training and the actual operational deployment have affected virtually every one of the members of the forces. At the same time, Canadian forces members and their families struggle with the same day-to-day problems and stresses dealt with by many Canadians: pay freezes, spousal employment concerns, and affordable care, just to name a few. These concerns are exacerbated in single-parent families. Reservists must cope with even more issues, as their job security is not guaranteed.

Our families also have to cope with frequent moves throughout Canada and overseas, a problem that has been magnified in recent years due to base closures. Next year we plan to reduce moves by 40% to 50%, which will provide a welcome break for many of our families.

[Translation]

How well are we looking after our people in this challenging environment? General Baril talked to you about the a "social contract" between Canada and the Canadian Forces during his presentation to you. One could ask:

Are we providing adequate care to our people who are injured or disabled? Are we providing appropriate support to our families who have to cope with all of the daily stresses alone while their husband or wife is deployed in uncertain, threatening circumstances? Do we have the right programs in place for our reserve personnel? Do our people receive the recognition and compensation they deserve?

[English]

We have tried to address these issues, but we cannot resolve them all internally within the department.

The quality of life programs that provide essential support to both the members and their families are particularly relevant, as they directly affect operational capability. With the demanding, uncertain situations faced by our people, our challenge is to create a worry-free environment—a difficult and admittedly perhaps unachievable task under the best of circumstances.

Our deployed personnel must be focused on the task at hand and cannot afford to be distracted by family concerns or problems that may hamper their effectiveness. Clearing minefields, negotiating, dodging bullets, and dealing with belligerent confrontations are but a few examples of where our personnel need to be completely focused on the task at hand. To achieve this focus, the concerns of the family members must be addressed in a comprehensive, timely manner that minimizes the distractions for the deployed members.

The current quality of life programs fall into three broad areas: support to the deployed personnel, support to the families, and appropriate compensation and recognition for both groups. Let me say a few words about each one.

The level of support to deployed personnel is comprehensive. The major elements of this support, as described by General Kinsman in his presentation to you, are to provide: enhanced unit and administrative welfare and morale; access to unit and specialist officers, such as doctors, social workers, and chaplains; and an active stress management program prior to, during, and after operational deployments.

Publicly funded support varies from mission to mission. However, most have access to Radio Canada International; receive the Foreign Affairs production INFOFLASH as well as the National Defence synopsis of the major news, sports, entertainment, weather, and financial news; and receive newspapers, periodicals, and books, though printed material is invariably long out of date when made available to the troops in theatre.

In addition, entertainment tours, movie videos, and funding to support rest and recreational activities provide the essential break from the long hours, hectic pace, and potentially life-threatening situations faced by our personnel.

Finally, Canadian goods are shipped to the theatre of operations to stock unit canteens with required daily items. Through public funding of about $3.5 million in fiscal year 1996-97, this program has ensured that our servicemen and women see tangible support from home. These amenities are essential elements in maintaining the necessary balance between focused operations and recreation, particularly during extended deployments.

Despite the best screening and preparation possible, inevitably problems will arise that must be dealt with in theatre. The support of officers and non-commissioned officers within the chain of command, as well as the availability of specialists such as those mentioned, results in problems being resolved as promptly and effectively as possible.

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[Translation]

These specialists also play a key role in the stress management program. There have been numerous incidents in our recent operations that have dramatically affected individuals and groups including genocide, massive destruction, refugee camps, deprivation, the breakdown of social structures as we know them, and the death or serious injury of comrades.

Our people are witness to horrific events; they cannot remain unaffected by what they see. And they have been affected. Critical incidents stress counselling deals with specific incidents as they occur. The deployment stress management program deals with the broader implications of pre-deployment family separation concerns, deployment stress issues dealt with both in theatre and at home, and reunion stress on completion of prolonged and dangerous absences.

[English]

We are constantly improving the support provided to our servicemen and women. For example, we recently started the practice of deploying a psychologist to assist commanders in identifying social problems as they develop.

What do we do to look after our families? I would like to examine three components of this important aspect: unit rear parties; military family resource centres; and the mission information line.

Unit rear parties—that is, members of the deploying unit that remain at home—provide vital support and a link to the people in theatre. They also are a source of assistance in dealing with both routine and unexpected events on the home front. Rear parties are very effective in supporting families who remain in the geographic area of the base from which the unit deployed.

In the case, however, of individual augmentees from other bases, or when the family temporarily relocates for the duration of the member's absence, the effectiveness of the rear-party system diminishes greatly.

Support to the family of reservists is more complicated, as their home is often not located with the deployed unit's space location. However, this is achievable through co-operation with the rear party and the reserve unit. From my experience, this particular aspect of our deployments still requires more work.

The military family resource centres located on our bases provide needed information, support, and referral. The centre is a place to turn for help when necessary. Staffed by people who understand the unique circumstances faced by our families, they may either provide direct assistance or refer to a specifically qualified agent in the community. They have assisted in such areas as preventing individual and family breakdowns and have aided individuals or families in distress.

Introduced in 1991, the program recognizes that spouses of CF members contribute to and support all Canadian forces missions. Knowing that such a facility is available to their spouses is important to those deployed on operations.

[Translation]

The mission information line is a toll free line established in 1992. Families anywhere in Canada can call 24 hours a day to receive timely and accurate information about the situation where their loved ones are deployed. Updated routinely (daily or weekly) by the deployed unit, access to the info line has proven to be very popular and useful. Many units recently have established e-mail connections from the theatre to the rear party for family use.

Support to the families of deployed sailors, soldiers, and aviators have improved significantly in the past few years. The programs are effective in reducing the uncertainty faced by loved ones at home and in providing essential assistance in crisis situations while remaining cost effective.

• 1600

[English]

One major irritant that has not been fully resolved to date and is not within the authority of the department to fully rectify is the issue of compensation provided to our personnel for the demands that we have placed on them. Deployment on operations increases the cost of living for our people. Some examples include travel home while on leave during an operational tour, which is often not fully reimbursed. The routine expenses of maintaining the family car and child care for both dual- and single-parent families when one or both are away on operations often increase.

The allowances paid by the United Nations and Canada vary from mission to mission. The payment of $1.28 U.S. per day by the United Nations does not address the financial concerns of our people in a substantive way. In general, those deployed on operations do, however, in fairness, receive much more than this meagre sum.

There are initiatives under way to resolve some of these shortcomings. A home leave travel proposal to fully compensate mid-tour travel home is currently at Treasury Board for approval. Last year, the monthly overseas allowance paid to personnel away for 12 months became entitlements for personnel deployed for six months, thereby eliminating one of the inequities of our compensation package. Staffing of a new child care benefit has commenced and will require Treasury Board approval in due course.

The development and approval of these programs will help us minimize a key contributor to stress, that is, the financial stability of our personnel and their families when a service member is deployed on operations. Eliminating concern that causes stress—basically creating that worry-free environment I referred to—will enhance our operational capability by reducing the distractions that often affect our deployed personnel. The welfare of our members and their families is a critical factor in maintaining our long-term operational capability.

In conclusion, then, have we done enough? We believe more can be done to improve the quality of life of our personnel and their families to cement an acceptable social contract between Canada and members of its forces.

While I do not wish to oversimplify a rather complex issue, I hope I have put in perspective this overarching need for an atmosphere of trust, confidence, and assurance that while performing their operational duties in support of our government and country, service members and their families are provided all the means available to assist them in every way possible. In this way, they can perform their duties with the comfort that their families are being cared for and that in the event of an unfortunate incident they and their families will be well taken care of.

I have introduced some of the quality of life programs that have an impact on our overall operational capability, and while these programs are working well, more needs to be done to support our most critical resource, our people.

[Translation]

As you know, you will be briefed by the Chiefs of the land and air staff as well on this critical subject.

Thank you for the opportunity to meet with you today. I look forward to your questions.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you very much, General.

I think that's all the time we have for you this afternoon. The bells are ringing. Maybe we can ask you to come back at a later date. I'm sure a lot of the members have questions. We can get back to you. How's that?

LGen R.R. Crabbe: Fine, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: We'll invite the general to come back, and I'd like everybody here when we do. We'll do it as soon as we can clear it with their schedule and ours.

The meeting is adjourned.