NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Monday, April 21, 1998

• 0830

[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.)):

[Editor's Note: Technical difficulties] ...and this morning we're going to be starting off with the Union of National Defence Employees and then we're going to go on with the list of the people who didn't get to speak last night.

I will now call on Margaret Tebbutt, please, to make her presentation.

Ms. Margaret Tebbutt (President, Local 629, Union of National Defence Employees): Thank you. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'm president of Local 629 of the Union of the National Defence Employees. I would like to introduce you to the rest of the executive: Mr. Bob King, second vice-president; Mr. Kevin Foster, our chief shop steward; Mrs. M.C. Cook, secretary; and Ms. Mary Chamberlain, vice-president of Ontario Region. I'm sorry, but Mr. Garry Labelle, our third vice-president, is absent.

On behalf of the executive and members of UNDE Local 629, we would like to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you about the concerns of our members at CFB Petawawa.

When I first sat down to try to think about what we here at Petawawa could tell you that you haven't heard already on your travels, nothing came to mind at first, because all civilians working for National Defence are experiencing the same problems. It is like a flu epidemic. When one base gets the sniffles, it seems to spread to other bases. We all know those famous buzzwords: ASD, downsizing, re-engineering, cutbacks, lay-offs, workforce adjustment, pay equity and collective bargaining, just to name a few.

In a recent local newspaper article, Mr. Hec Clouthier, member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, stated that civilians at CFB Petawawa must control their own destiny. We don't disagree with this statement, but it is very hard to control our own destiny when the higher echelon at NDHQ and the Liberal government will not allow us to do so.

For example, National Defence is the only department that allows for in-house bidding. Last year when the Canadian Forces Housing Authority took over the married quarters, tenders were requested for the maintenance of these PMQs. At CFB Petawawa, two shops in our construction and engineering section put in bids for a contract on the electrical and carpentry work. The carpentry shop placed second in the bidding process and was awarded 20% of the repair work, and the electrical shop came in third.

This year we had more shops interested in putting in bids, but they were not allowed to because they had not bid last year. However, private industry was allowed to bid even though they may not have last year. Does this seem fair? Does it seem like being able to control our own destiny? I think not.

Colonel Mitchell and the union tried, through our chain of command, to get this ruling overturned, but were unsuccessful.

The union has proven that an in-house bid can work for the department. We've had two very successful bids, one at the Pubs depot in Ottawa and the other for Base Foods at CFB Trenton. A difference of over $7 million was saved by Base Foods being awarded the contract. The department would have been more than willing to pay $16 million to the next lowest bidder for getting the same service.

The department keeps stating that CFB Meaford has saved millions. What they do not tell you is how much Meaford cost to operate prior to the contracting out. They also do not publish how many times they have amended their contract. Last we heard, they were on amendment number seven. Is it that the contractor thinks he is being overpaid for his services and wants to renegotiate? Not likely.

We have tried to get these figures but are being told that they are not available. However, we know that Mr. Perrin Beatty was the defence minister at that time and Meaford just happened to be in his riding, and was, after all, the first base to be privatized. Coincidence? I'll let you determine that.

During a recent awareness/dirty laundry campaign, the Union of National Defence Employees sent out flyers. I'll call them “Piggies at the Trough” for a lack of better words. In 5 different flyers, UNDE uncovered approximately 20 senior military officers who have left the department, turned around and found employment with the companies that are taking over major DND contracts or are working as consultants for the department.

Like the average taxpayer, I see this as double-dipping. Some of these high-ranking senior officers have taken off their uniforms one day and marched right back into their old jobs the very next day, wearing civilian attire and making more money, plus receiving large severance packages. Possibly, as Mr. Clouthier said, they must control their own destiny. If any of the members of the committee would like copies of “Piggies at the Trough”, I will be more than pleased to forward them to you.

• 0835

We are all aware that the government must be fiscally responsible, but it seems they are doing it on the backs of the public service, as seen at CFBs Portage La Prairie, Meaford, Moose Jaw, and most recently, Goose Bay. The list is about to grow with the announcement of six more bases.

It was the union who informed base commanders that their base was on the list for ASD review. It was only after base commanders contacting their superiors that any announcement was made through the department.

Fortunately, this time Petawawa was kept off the list. How long before we are on it? It is uncertain.

CFB Petawawa, as you might be aware, is undertaking a large re-engineering project. Prior to the re-engineering, the base commander asked for and received full support from the civilian and military workers, but it has not been without stress, fear, and anxiety, as we never know when our fate will be met.

Colonel Mitchell has not promised that we are all guaranteed jobs. He was hoping that the re-engineering team would be able to identify surplus functions in time for some members to take advantage of the early departure incentives, but this will not happen by June 22, 1998.

We are aware that Treasury Board and the Public Service Alliance of Canada are trying to negotiate a new contract. Again, our fate is in the hands of someone else. We were recently told that if the Public Service Alliance of Canada does not accept the most recent offer, the government will legislate. It does not matter what our union tries to do for us, the government always seems to take the easy way out and legislate instead of bargaining in good faith.

If Petawawa is ever considered for ASD, it will be devastating to the community. The base is one of the largest employers in the county, besides AECL, who themselves are downsizing. Even without an ASD review this base has experienced considerable job losses.

In 1992, when I got involved with the union, we had just over 800 members on the base, one of the largest in the country. Now, in only a few short years, we have just over 400 employees. Where have all these people gone? They have left the area or else they are receiving social assistance, because there are so few other places to work in the community.

We have spoken to a member of the town council in Meaford. If they had only known the full impact of a large corporation like Black & McDonald coming in to take over the base, they would have been more proactive and tried to stop the contracting out. Wages decreased considerably, therefore people left the community to try to find employment elsewhere.

We also do not want what happened in Happy Valley-Goose Bay to happen here in Petawawa. How the government could allow a foreign-based company to come in and treat taxpaying Canadian citizens in a manner legally not allowed in Britain is incomprehensible.

Employees applied for a specific job only to find out they were actually being interviewed for a totally different job. I'm speaking of a secretary who thought she was being interviewed for a secretarial position only to find out she was in fact being considered for a cleaner's position and would only receive half the salary she was making. Because this was considered a reasonable job offer, had she turned down the cleaner position she would not have received any benefit package.

Another issue close to our hearts is pay equity. The battle between Treasury Board and the public service of Canada has been going on for 13 years. Enough is enough. Back when the Conservatives were in power, the Liberals said, “Pay these workers”. Now the tables are turned, and the Liberals have the opportunity to pay us, but they too are stalling. The government has spent more tax dollars on legal fees than the whole settlement is worth. It's time to get this settled once and for all. Our members want what is legally owed to them.

In the last year we've heard in the media that the recent wage adjustments to the military were to bring them in line with the public service. I'd like to tell you that this statement is so far from the truth it is sinful. There may be public servants who make more than the military, but I wish the department would state what level they are talking about, because it is not at the base level.

For example, I am a CR clerk who works side by side with corporals and master corporals, doing the same job, and they make $10,000 to $12,000 a year more than me. When it comes to benefit packages, we are quite similar, except they get five weeks of holiday after only five years of service, whereas I must work 19 years to receive five weeks of leave. They come to work and go home the same time I do every day. You tell me where the wage adjustment should be.

• 0840

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the military is overpaid. I'm saying when the government or the military talks to the media, do not paint us all with the same paint brush. No wonder the average citizen thinks we're all overpaid public servants.

Those in the military just received a wage increase on April 1 and were told they would receive the same wage increase the public service gets. It almost sounds like the MPs gave themselves an increase because of brain drain. Let me tell you our members also have brain drain trying to compensate for staffing cuts we have faced. Again, the unions have asked for the help of conciliators because the government will not and has not bargained in good faith.

The civilians at CFB Petawawa are proud citizens. When the military's called out to help and support in ice storms, floods and UN missions, the civilian workers are there working alongside them in whatever capacity, just to make sure they are ready for deployment. When the military is called out on these missions, who does the government think are doing the work back at the bases? There are still day-to-day operations.

The work of a civilian employee does not stop just because some units are deployed. The military was praised for its participation in the ice storms and floods, but not a word was said to the civilian workers who helped the military deploy.

If you don't take anything else away from this briefing, please remember we're just asking for an opportunity to continue employment with the public service in the Department of National Defence. Some of our members have worked here since graduating from high school, and to have the rug yanked out from beneath them is demoralizing. Unlike the military, most civilians are not usually packed up lock, stock and barrel and relocated to locations unknown. This is what would happen if this base were to be contracted out.

Again, thank you for your time.

The Chairman: Thank you for your presentation.

Mr. Clouthier, I believe you have questions or comments.

Mr. Hec Clouthier (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, Lib.): Thank you, Marg, for being here this morning.

Marg, as you know, I've met with you and members of your executive at my office. The first thing I would have to say is in your opening remarks you said in a local newspaper article that Hec Clouthier, member of Parliament for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, stated civilians of CFB Petawawa must control their own destiny. I believe you then said you don't agree with this statement.

Mrs. Margaret Tebbutt: Sorry, I meant to say we do agree.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: You don't disagree?

Mrs. Margaret Tebbutt: That's okay.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: As you know, in the article I personally, speaking as your local member of Parliament—and I've indicated this, as my colleagues around this table will tell, to other defence committee hearings—am not in favour of ASD coming to this particular base. It's not because I'm being selfish, but because I believe ASD should be carefully reviewed at some of the other bases where it has been implemented, and it should be looked at in a fair and equitable manner. I personally believe this base is doing a tremendous job in the re-engineering, as I've also indicated in this article.

As for guaranteeing the civilians will be allowed to bid in the contracting out, I have spoken personally to the minister as of late, and he has indicated to me he will check into it, because to the best of his knowledge, if ASD should come to any base throughout the country, the civilian employees who are currently working there would have the opportunity to bid.

I quote from this article once again where the by-line says “Hec says no to contracting out”. I am quoted as saying I would want a guarantee that the civilian personnel be allowed to bid on any of the contracting out. That's my stand on the ASD. I have a lot of empathy for the civilian personnel. I have a lot of empathy for the military personnel. There seems to be a great deal of consternation in the military, and in many regards you have very valid rationale for some of your concerns.

Speaking again as a member of this committee, we're here to look, listen and learn. Last night, perhaps some of the people in the audience thought some of the other members were not speaking out. We were all diligently taking notes. That's what we're here to do. We're here to listen to your concerns and bring your concerns to the minister and NDHQ. We cannot guarantee anything, as the base commander has said to you. At the end of the day, sometimes the decisions are made by higher-up authorities, but if we can apply the pressure to them—and rest assured that we will be bringing your concerns, Marg, and those of people such as Bob King, from the civilian personnel and also from the military personnel, to the powers that be—hopefully we can get some of these problems rectified.

• 0845

Ms. Margaret Tebbutt: Well, hopefully you can get an appointment with the defence minister, because the union has tried and has been unsuccessful. So any support you can get from him to meet with our national president would be most appreciated. Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger (Calgary Northeast, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for your presentation. I'm curious about the whole process of ASD when it comes to the involvement of Black & McDonald. Can you tell me a little more about Black & McDonald?

Ms. Margaret Tebbutt: What I'll do is I'll get Mrs. Chamberlain to speak on Black & McDonald, because that's her region and she knows more about it than I do.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. The other question I have—and this has come up quite frequently too—is in reference to senior military officers who have left the department and just turned around and found jobs in the private sector with companies that do a lot of negotiations with DND. You said you had a list.

Ms. Margaret Tebbutt: Yes, we do.

Mr. Art Hanger: Could we get a copy for the committee, and also for me personally?

Ms. Margaret Tebbutt: Yes. That's no problem. Also, as part of the campaign, as I said, we did send these “Piggies at the Trough” posters out to every member of Parliament. But I will get you a copy.

Mr. Art Hanger: I appreciate that.

Okay, Black & McDonald.

Ms. Mary Chamberlain (Vice-President, Ontario Region, Union of National Defence Employees): I really don't have a lot of background information, because of course Meaford was contracted out prior to my tenure. However, what I do know is that they're an American-based company and that there are ex-military on their board of directors in Canada. But I will get you some documents on that and forward them at the same time as the other ones.

Mr. Art Hanger: Is it customary that a lot of organizations outside this country seem to be picking up contracts for DND?

Ms. Mary Chamberlain: First it was Black & McDonald and now of course there's Serco in Goose Bay. Bombardier seems to get a lot of them, and from what we're finding there's a lot of ex-military on the Bombardier payroll also.

Mr. Art Hanger: Right, yes.

Ms. Mary Chamberlain: But Serco and Black & McDonald are the only two out of country that I'm aware of.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay, great. Thanks very much.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Ms. Mary Chamberlain: Thank you.

The Chairman: I would now call on Warrant Officer Raymond James, please.

Warrant Officer Raymond C. James (Individual Presentation): Good morning. The first thing I'll do is warn you that I have a medical condition that might not allow me to finish my presentation, but I've given a copy to the secretary, so she has it in case I'm not able to finish.

Another thing I want to say before I begin is that what I'm about to tell you is my perception of a situation that I'm in personally. Other people may have different views pertaining to my situation, but I'm here to present my views.

You'll have to pardon me for reading from my paper, but that's about the only way I can maintain my composure.

Finger-pointing and name-calling cannot and will not produce positive results. What may produce positive results is the passage of information, information that will allow for the formulating of a strategy that can afford military members with the service they deserve.

First of all I'd like to give you some of my background so you can understand where I'm coming from. I'm a warrant officer, I'm a field engineer, and I have 17 years of service. I've spent time in many different units here in this country and overseas. I was fortunate enough in my early years of service to rise to the senior non-commissioned officer level well before my peers, and I was considered a rising star.

In 1992 my unit was sent to the former Yugoslavia. During this tour I became afflicted with an illness. Upon my return from that tour my professional and private lives began to suffer hardships. Since 1992 my marriage of eight years has evaporated; a three-year common-law relationship has crumbled; my ability to perform at my previous military level has dissipated; I have lost my life savings, an amount in excess of $100,000; and I am for the first time in my life a debtor.

• 0850

I have a mental disorder called post-traumatic stress disorder. I have many ailments related to this disorder, and one of these is an acute fear of failure. My disorder would not allow me to fail at being a soldier. I've had PTSD now for six years—six years in which I've had to live a façade. I've begged my doctors not to put me on medical category. I told them that I had to finish my career.

Well, my fear of failure worked somewhat. I was able to put on a smiling face and do my job at an average level. I was able to complete most of the tasks given to me without difficulty. When I was unable to complete some of them, my bosses were able to cover for me, give me a helping hand, do me a favour. My most immediate supervisors knew I was seeing a psychiatrist and that I had difficulty with some things.

While I was able to work somewhat efficiently on the job, my private life was hell. Simple acts of going to the store, standing in a line-up at a restaurant to eat or driving in traffic were beyond my capability.

I lost all ability to show or feel emotion. I couldn't communicate with anyone—and I'd appreciate your not taking my picture, Sergeant. I lost all my friends. I was unable to interact socially whatsoever. Too much energy was being spent on fulfilling my career commitments.

PTSD is a very complex and mysterious beast. Other than the fact that I'm here reading verbatim from my paper, you would think looking at me, “he seems normal enough”. You can have a conversation with me or even work with me and you'd never know. PTSD manifests itself in many ways. You can have physical reactions, mental reactions, or both.

I told you a little about what I suffer with. But to put it in a context so you can really grasp the situation that I deal with on a day-to-day basis, I'm going to use an analogy you may understand.

Picture yourself in a large auditorium. All the lights are off, and you can't see your hand in front of your face. Next you're told that one of your children is in the room and that if you don't find him within five minutes he'll suffocate to death. Picture, if you will, the mad panic and feeling of helplessness that would go through your mind. It doesn't paint a pretty picture, does it?

Now that you have some idea of a few of the discomforts that I face day to day, I'll stop complaining and take you down the path I have walked and am still walking.

I was told by a boss one evening in December 1993 to go and seek help, because he noticed that I showed signs of PTSD. I began getting professional help in January 1994, almost one and a half years after coming back from my tour of the former Yugoslavia.

I was told right away that I suffered from PTSD. I was given lots of encouragement that I would get better in a few months, and not to worry, and that the way I was thinking and acting was normal for PTSD-afflicted people.

At first I refused to take medication, not wanting to accept the fact that I was mentally troubled. I take medication now. I'm on my eleventh type of prescription. To make a long story a little shorter, I went through every type of drug therapy known to man or medicine. I was constantly told I was seeing one of the best doctors in the field and that I'd be fine in no time.

Well, after five years and very little progress, I came here to Petawawa to see another expert in the field. After a few months and the break-up with my common-law wife, I couldn't accept the consequences of how life was going. I couldn't live through the lies any more.

This time I was told that I was unfit to stay in the military. It seemed as soon as I was not willing to act as a lab rat any more, I wasn't fit for the military. I was also told I would not likely ever get better from my disorder. It's just too bad I wasn't told by one of these experts that I wouldn't get better a few years ago. Six years is a big portion of one's life to be wasted.

• 0855

If I had been told all the options available to me five or six years ago, I would have begun receiving a pension of around $1,000 a month tax-free from Veterans Affairs. Over five years, that amount works out to $60,000 tax-free. What is that in real money? It's about $100,000 in real money. Oh, and at the same time, I could have begun receiving a military pension of 24%—that is, if I had been medically released then. At that pay level, I would have received another $60,000 by now.

The only reason I became educated in any of the ways or options that are available to me was by digging into the system mostly by myself, in either books or magazines or by talking to other people. I definitely was not helped by most of my superiors.

As soon as I was told I was put on permanent category, my boss wanted nothing to do with me. He wanted to put me in an out-of-the-way job that was one rank level below what I had achieved. I had been doing my job at an acceptable level to that point. In fact, the career manager was going to offer me my extension to age 55. For me, that would be an additional fifteen-year extension to my contract.

I then went and talked to my boss's boss about being unhappy about the decision. This only got me chastised in a very diplomatic way. My boss was told I had said I was unhappy with him. I was told, “There are other people in this unit worse off than you.” Until you live my nightmare, the chance of your being able to judge my level of hardship is impossible.

Upon a recommendation by the unit medical officer to see a work rehab councillor, I met with a woman who told me she had been doing this type of job for the military for a number of years now. She is responsible for the job placement of personnel awaiting release and who would benefit medically by being out of the military environment. I was totally surprised that, being a supervisor of personnel, I didn't know they had this option available to them.

Anyway, she told me I should get a job away from the military, and that it would help with my self-esteem. I had to sell myself and the idea to the CO of the unit, and upon his approval, I began working in a civilian company until my release was final.

• 0900

As a note, I was out of pocket an additional $300 a month to work at this company. There needs to be some form of funding available to support people who are in the same situation as I'm in.

I'm very happy with the work placement, and I'm willing to pay this money out of my own pocket to work there. This work placement has and is helping me greatly to develop self-confidence and self-esteem.

I do, however, look at this as a form of medical treatment. Looking at it along those lines, my medical bills should be paid by the military. I told one of my supervisors that I was happy the commanding officer was being so helpful in letting me go from the unit to work at this job placement. He told me that he had no choice.

After I was told I was to be released, I was treated by the military as if I had leprosy. The normal stigmas related to persons with a mental disorder began to kick in. Suddenly I was a square peg that wouldn't fit into a round hole.

I know there are people scared to come forward and receive psychiatric help due to the treatment they will receive at work. They know they will be singled out and treated differently. There are also others who need treatment who refuse to seek it out. If a person had a broken leg and refused to go and get help with their problem, the unit leadership would step in and make that person receive treatment.

Stigmas about medical disabilities are a serious issue when it comes to laymen who try to determine on their own the competence of personnel who are afflicted. Looking at a person and trying to determine the severity of their heart condition is on par with looking at a person and trying to determine their mental competence.

Once I knew I was looking out for myself, with the exception of two junior officers from the unit, I looked into my options. Let's look at some of the problems I found or questions that can't be answered within a reasonable period of time.

First, there's Veterans Affairs. Will I get a pension from them? Why must I fight to get a medical pension from them? I'm being kicked out of the military due to my medical condition and I have to prove to VA that I'm ill.

Okay, then what about SISIP? I've been told all along that SISIP was a great thing to get, inexpensive to have, good coverage, long-term disability, but what will they give me?

I phoned the head office in Ottawa. I found that I wouldn't receive any benefits unless I was unable to do any job that I had training, experience, or education for. That means I won't be able to receive benefits if I can answer a phone or lick envelopes. The military, from the time you join until you're released, and even after release, advocates signing up with SISIP, which is a total rip-off organization.

My next option is my military pension. I will receive 2% for completed years served. I will receive a 34% pension for 17 years of service. After taxes, I think that works out to probably 20% of my wage.

The military also only starts paying you your pension and severance pay six to eight weeks after your release. It doesn't matter if they know the date of release six months beforehand. When you're in debt and have no income, it's going to be very difficult to live for those six to eight weeks.

Here's a small note to take into account. At my present rank and pay level, not counting on any pay raises or promotions, I would receive with my contract extension approximately $800,000 prior to the end of my contract. But at the 34% pension that I will receive, it's $270,000. That's $530,000 less in my pocket. Along with that, if I live a normal lifespan, the difference in pension after age 55 is another $315,000. Taking into account what I should have received, what I didn't get in pay, my reduced pension, the moneys already lost due to my condition, we're looking at over $1.1 million.

• 0905

Let me tell you this: the money means absolutely nothing compared to the peace of mind that mental health can give you.

The next option is an initiative laid out between the military and the public service, which I found by reading the Defence 2000 news bulletin of August 1997. The initiative stated that if you receive an injury while in a special duty area you could be eligible to be put on a list with the public service. You can only be put on this list if you qualify for a job available. In this news bulletin they predict how many people this could affect. They predict that maybe four to six people will qualify for this huge initiative per year. Also, Veterans Affairs has to approve a pension for you and you must be capable of working within two years after your release. When an initiative like this happens, it is an appeasement to the public, not a measure to help out disabled members.

It takes months or even years for Veterans Affairs to make a settlement with its applicants. I submitted my application through the legion's regional representative in Ottawa on February 11, 1998. I received a letter from them on February 23, 1998, stating that they were working on my case. I found out that VA didn't get my file from DND until April 8, 1998. It will take another month or two to get an initial decision. Furthermore, it is the norm to make a number of appeals before you receive what is deemed a reasonable settlement. Many people I have talked to have gone through this process. It is just a little game they play to weed out the weak-willed, a sick and twisted way of saving a few dollars on claims.

Veterans Affairs and the military should work together. There should be no trying to convince VA that you should receive a pension after the military has deemed you unfit. What is VA for? Is it a place to support persons who deserve help due to disabling injuries? What is the responsibility of the military to its members when they get injured? If I worked for a civilian company and I was afflicted with PTSD due to the company's policies, and had to be subjected to the incompetent treatment I had been given, I could sue that company for millions of dollars. Veterans Affairs should be a working component within the military medical system.

I am now on my fifth month of waiting. I have been told by two medical doctors that I will receive a medical release as I am unfit for service. My file has yet to reach the medical review board. I have been told that after they receive my file it will take a few more months before they give out their recommendations. With these months adding up, and the time it takes to complete my release, it may take up to a year before I am out of the military.

It has already been deemed that my condition is made worse by my presence in the military. Why am I still stuck within this system for another year? It was even suggested to me by my MO, medical officer, that if I took my voluntary release my medical category would catch up with me in a few months, thereby making my release happen sooner. To me that means if I ask to get out of the military voluntarily it will happen faster than if you have a medical condition that is complicated by being in the military.

Another option given to me is that I write a memorandum to give my personal side of the situation, maybe making things work faster. I would think the advice of two medical doctors would hold enough weight for my medical release and that its happening faster wouldn't hinge on a field engineer's personal point of view.

I am done begging. I am finished smiling in the face of adversity, and I am not betraying myself any more because of an antiquated military bureaucracy. I will use every option available to me, and speak to whoever it takes to ensure a speedier resolution to this six-year-long problem. I did sign on the dotted line to serve my country and I will do that to the best of my ability. I did, however, sign on the dotted line with the understanding that I could count on being given support in a manner on par with the rest of the Canadian people, whom I have been willing to defend with my life. It is easier to be proud to serve your country when you're proud of your country.

• 0910

One of the greatest benefits that can be afforded to military personnel is ensuring that all of them receive the proper education and information dealing with the medical complications that could affect them. All levels of command must ensure that supervisory-level personnel be given the appropriate information to effectively ensure that their soldiers receive proper treatment and benefits.

Is this a new problem facing the military? Have situations like this never arisen before? No, I don't think so.

I think that the treatment of the individual soldier who is below the rank of general has been, and still is, inadequate. When you ask someone to give up their life for your freedoms and rights, the least you could do is show and give them the same rights and freedoms that they are willing to die for.

Leadership is failing us. The system is failing us. It's time to make a new stand and to write new policies. It's also time to make people at all levels accountable for their failures.

If you look at that sign behind you, it says “Never pass a fault”. It's quite appropriate.

In closing, I would like to challenge all who are present. My challenge is: make the life of a military member a happier and more fulfilling one. People must be empowered with the knowledge of what rights and options are available to them.

I have lost my wife, my house, my life savings and my dignity. All I ask for myself is that the military give me a chance to at least regain my dignity.

Let's have the military give as much as it takes. If there was only thing you could do for the rest of the military members, I'd ask you to be able to ensure that military members are treated with the respect and decency that you would give your own family members.

Thank you for your patience and your time.

On the back page of the copy that was given to the secretary is the breakdown of the numbers that I stated, on where I am going to be deficient $1.1 million.

Are there any questions for me?

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Warrant Officer James, for your presentation.

I think something that has become abundantly clear, from the people who have appeared before the committee before and from you today, is that many of the people who are injured in serving the country and in the Canadian Forces aren't treated well. I think you've made that case very clearly again today. So I would like to thank you for that, and I would like to get your phone number, if I could, before you leave today.

WO Raymond James: I'll give it to you right now. My phone number in Ottawa is 738-8037, and there is an answering machine there.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay, thank you.

WO Raymond James: Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Private J. McKimmie, please.

Private J. McKimmie (Individual Presentation): Good morning. I'm not much of a speaker, so bear with me. I'm a new private to the military, and I have two kids and a wife to support.

I make $1,981 a month before deductions, but after deductions and my rent is paid and a loan for all existing bills is paid, it leaves me with about $330 to feed and clothe my kids. I also have to pay for car insurance, phone, cable, fuel and other monthly bills, like heat and power. If you add up the numbers, that leaves me about $200 to $300 short at the end of the month. I know of a few privates and even corporals who are collecting welfare to help cover costs. My question is, what is being done about this?

• 0915

I have a few other points as well. I live in the PMQs and the way it sits, welfare won't touch this housing. In short, people who don't work and are collecting welfare make more money and live in better housing than the military does.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Pte J. McKimmie: I got into the military for the pride and honour, like a bunch of other people who are in here—and I bet you it's all for the same reasons—as well as the training, but I didn't think we'd have to starve and live from hand to mouth, and sometimes not even that. If something isn't done soon, I will be another person who is on welfare or getting out, because I can't afford to live, never mind support a family.

The government says we should be happy with the raise we got. That raise might help people who make $40,000 or $50,000 a year or even more, but for those of us who make $35,000 and under, it doesn't amount to much. I made $19,000 last year. I received a 1.7% raise. That works out to $6.61 a month. If the government is going to give out raises, they should have a dollar amount on them, not a percentage, because that would make it fair for everyone, not just the fat cats who have the big brass on their shoulders.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Pte J. McKimmie: I was reading a copy of Maclean's magazine that describes our situation to a t. It also describes other problems that should be addressed, such as our uniforms and our housing, as well as the morale of the common soldier.

The military is supposed to be “for the family”, but that's a crock. When I was in Borden, my one-year-old daughter had an accident and knocked herself out. When we took her to the base hospital, they told me they couldn't help because my daughter wasn't military personnel, that I would have to take her to a civilian doctor who was 20 minutes to half an hour away. Now what if my daughter had been seriously hurt and had needed immediate medical attention? By the time I got to the hospital, it would have been too late.

What is going to be done about this? For something like this, I would like to see someone in the defence staff squirm and try to give my wife and me an explanation as to why this would happen when family is supposed to be such a big issue.

In closing, I think that all the persons who can remedy our situation should read this and do something to change it, like more money, better housing and more access to uniform kits.

That's all I have to say.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Master Corporal Bill Paton, Cathy Hamilton, Sergeant Dan Meehan, Millie Evans—these are some of the people who did not get a chance to speak last night.

Millie Evans.

• 0920

Ms. Millie Evans (Individual Presentation): I guess my issues this morning concern the postings of military members and the thought and consideration given to members when they're posted.

I was a military member up until October 1996. I had 15 years in. We were posted here in July 1996. In October 1996, I was basically forced, because of medical reasons concerning my daughter, to take a release.

In 1995 my daughter was diagnosed with Tourette's syndrome. I don't know how much you know about it. It causes a child to be very unstable mentally. She had a lot of teasing from kids and society in general, with people staring at her, teachers ignoring her.

She was 10 years old at the time she was diagnosed. She talked about death and suicide. She wrote poems about death and suicide. It was hard. We didn't know what the problem was until she was diagnosed in 1995.

In late 1995 they came to us and told us that my husband was promoted, which meant a posting. That was fine. It wasn't something we wanted to do, but that's something you live with in the military.

We had all her doctors and everything set up. We were working on the problem. Our unit was aware of the problem. The career managers were aware of the problem. They posted us to Borden, which was good. It was a very good posting, because it kept us on the ground, at home, so we could provide the support she needed.

In November 1995 that was changed to Petawawa. Petawawa has a lot of commitments, UN commitments and exercises. Just see how busy it's been for the last year and a half. People are never home. I was in the military, my husband is in the military. He's on 48-hour notice to move out anywhere.

When we came here we tried to get a position where maybe I could be here and available for my daughter, because she needed us. She needed me. They shipped me straight to the field. That would be fine at any other time, but at that time we needed to be here. I needed to be here for my daughter.

We tried to get a position where I could be here, and they wouldn't help us. That was fine.

When we talked to the career mang...I almost said “mangler”.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Millie Evans: When we talked to the career manager in Gagetown about posting us to the field unit at this time—we just left this place in 1991, and they shipped us back—and I told him the problem we had, he told me to take her to a doctor and get it fixed. It can't be fixed.

At any rate, we came to Petawawa. I went straight to the field and he went straight on his 48-hour notice. Where does that leave your family? Where does that leave my daughter?

Then we came to the “welcome to the battalion” address. We were willing to give it a try. We thought we'd sit back and see what happened.

• 0925

We went to the base theatre for a welcome to the battalion address from the CO of the battalion. After we sat down, his right-hand man came in, and the first thing that he said was....he told us to sit down and shut our F-ing mouths, this was not a question and answer period, shut up and listen. And that was the welcome to the battalion speech.

The CO then came in, and it was basically, “This is my F-ing battalion. I run it the way I F-ing see fit. You're a soldier first, your job comes second, and your family comes last.” He then quoted the QR and Os and the CFAOs for release. He said, “If you can't F-ing handle it”—and those were his words!—“then I'd be happy to sign these papers.” I have a daughter talking about suicide, and this is what he's telling me? I put in for my release. That's exactly what I did. He signed it a month later.

I had 15 years in, but I got no pension. My husband's at 25 years in. They couldn't do anything to help us? I got one of those frozen mukluks, as the CDS called it, right in the face, and it was unnecessary. Now, I have 15 years' experience under my belt, but I can't go down here to get a job at Tim Hortons. There are no jobs here.

It was my choice to get out of the military; however, when these people are put in these positions to decide your career, there's room for thought and consideration in extenuating circumstances. But they don't care. The upper echelon doesn't care about the soldiers any more, or the troops. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who was put in that position in these postings.

When you're told to go, that's fine, you go where they send you. Since 1989, we've bought three houses. This is our third house. That's three postings from 1989 to 1996. There's no thought and consideration at all given to any of us.

And I'm a civvie now, so I can really say what I want to say without retribution.

[Editor's Note: Sustained applause from audience]

Ms. Millie Evans: That's all.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: In regard to the welcome to the regiment speech that the CO gave, was that here?

Ms. Millie Evans: It was here, but not in this building. It was in the theatre.

Mr. Art Hanger: Is this the customary welcome to the regiment speech?

Ms. Millie Evans: Did you get welcomed into your job like that? I don't think so.

• 0930

Mr. Art Hanger: But is it customary for a CO to address the newcomers into the regiment like that?

Ms. Millie Evans: I've never been spoken to like that in 15 years. Never.

Mr. Art Hanger: You weren't alone, I gather.

Ms. Millie Evans: Oh no, there was a whole group. I'm sure there are probably people in here now who were posted at the same time I was, who sat in that transport, who sat through that address.

[Editor's Note: Applause from the audience]

A voice: What unit?

Ms. Millie Evans: Those are the leaders these people have to deal with now, not me. And I'm not the only one who heard it.

Mr. Art Hanger: You were in the military for 15 years. Do you see a widening gap taking place between the officers and non-commissioned?

Ms. Millie Evans: Oh, big time. There's segregation.

Mr. Art Hanger: Pardon? Is it getting worse?

Ms. Millie Evans: There's a segregation, like anything that happens within the military.

I'm really honestly surprised that the troops here, the junior NCOs, have actually been allowed to come in to speak to you. Usually, the junior NCOs can't...

[Editor's Note: Inaudible due to audience applause]. The senior NCOs are caught in the middle. They have to keep everybody happy.

Mr. Art Hanger: Why do you think this division is taking place? What's happening?

Ms. Millie Evans: Because nobody cares.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Millie Evans: Everybody is so worried about themselves that they don't care about the little person, they don't care about the little master corporal who has a sick child at home. All they care about is that their promotion is going to come, that they can get their boss their coffee tomorrow morning so that they can get their promotion, and that's all they care about. They don't care about the troops any more, because everybody is out for themselves. With one pat on the back, that person will pat you on the back some day. Cash in your chips when you need them. That's the way they look at it.

As I said, I'm surprised people are allowed to be here. There were probably a lot of them who were told not to say anything. There's always that in the back of your head: extra duties.

Mr. Art Hanger: Do you think there was any form of intimidation in regard to speaking out at this meeting?

Ms. Millie Evans: I'm sure there was. There wasn't for me, because I don't care any more.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Ms. Millie Evans: The only intimidation for me was my husband telling me not to mention his name. But even that's intimidation from the upper echelons through to him.

So I'm sure there was, but I don't know.

Mr. Art Hanger: I'd like to know if there was.

Is the growing wedge between non-commissioned members and officers, or is it within the junior ranks?

Ms. Millie Evans: What do you mean?

Mr. Art Hanger: Amongst those non-commissioned officers, is there a wedge there too, or is there a dissatisfaction with anyone of rank?

Ms. Millie Evans: I still don't understand your question. I don't understand what you're saying.

• 0935

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. I detect from your conversation that there is unhappiness and certainly a view that there's a wide gap, if you will, between the NCOs and the officer rank—commissioned officers. Is that right? Is that generally the case?

Ms. Millie Evans: Well, there are three levels. There are the non-commissioned members, which I guess are master corporals and below, and then the senior NCOs, which are the sergeants—

Mr. Art Hanger: Upwards.

Ms. Millie Evans: —up to chief warrant officer, yes, and then there are the officers.

The gap is getting wider and wider with the senior NCOs and the junior ranks. I think that's because the senior NCOs, as I said, are caught in the middle. They're caught between the officers and the people they're supposed to help out, or the people that they need to help out, and sometimes that's not possible because they have to keep everybody happy. It's protocol, I guess.

Mr. Art Hanger: Sure. Okay, thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit? All right, there are no more questions.

Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.): I have some.

The Chairman: Oh, do you? Mr. Wood.

Mr. Bob Wood: Never put a Liberal in charge of a Liberal, I guess. I'll never get on here.

Millie, I'm having a hard time understanding how these career managers work. Unbelievable—I can't believe their callous, kind of smart-ass attitude and how they got their jobs. Does this happen all the time?

A voice: Yes.

Mr. Bob Wood: We've travelled around and heard about this, but I just have a hard time believing it. In your case it's kind of unbelievable that they would treat another human being like that, who obviously has family problems. Do these people still exist? I mean, are these people who gave you this runaround still here?

Ms. Millie Evans: I'm sure he's here somewhere. I don't know if he's still a career mangler or not—I don't know.

Mr. Bob Wood: Unbelievable.

Ms. Millie Evans: The understanding that we had when we went to him with our problems, or our daughter's problems...that's what he told me—take her to a doctor and get it fixed. Well, it can't be fixed. So that was all right. Then he said they couldn't send us to Borden; they couldn't put us in Borden because there was a gentleman there who needed a compassionate posting.

Mr. Bob Wood: Where will you go? Did you not apply for a compassionate posting, or could you?

Ms. Millie Evans: No, no, I didn't. I didn't think I would have had to. You would think—

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, you would.

Ms. Millie Evans: Anyway, this gentleman was supposed to go to a compassionate posting. We found out after we were posted here that the individual who took the spot that my husband was supposed to be posted into—it wasn't a compassionate posting. He was in another part of Base Borden. He had been there for the last couple of years. He had a kid who wanted to finish high school in Borden, so they cross-posted him so that he didn't have to leave the area. They gave him our position so that his kid could finish high school, while my kid's at home talking about suicide. You know?

Mr. Bob Wood: No, I don't know. I have a hard time believing all this. But it does happen.

Ms. Millie Evans: I'm sure I'm not the only person who has had this problem with the career managers. I don't know how many people here have kids with problems or families with problems. Not everybody has a perfect family.

Yes, we signed on the dotted line; however, concessions can be made. I mean, 15 years.... I joined out of high school, and now I have nothing—nothing. All they had to do was just something. Somebody could have done something.

Mr. Bob Wood: Yes, they could have.

Ms. Millie Evans: But they didn't.

• 0940

Mr. Bob Wood: Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Corporal Vance Taylor? Nancy Barber? Pat Eglinton?

Master Corporal Pat Eglinton (Individual Presentation): Good morning, Mr. Chairman, council.

Last year, in 1997, in February, I went on what was called a harassment facilitator's course. Based on that, I've instructed most of my regiment, probably between 150 and 200 personnel. Because of that, I speak on behalf of most of my junior ranks who are comfortable to come and talk to me.

A lot of them fear retaliation on a board like this. As an example, people in my troop or in the regiment are told that their opinion isn't worth coming here, and that they're not allowed.

In turn, my commanding officer, who I admire because as far as I'm concerned he's out for the men, looking out for us, said that these members are allowed to come, and it's their right.

In turn, most people here are here because they want to be here, and could be doing it on the onus that they're going to be charged for AWOL. It is unlikely that will come out. But I do have a bunch of points that are going to be brought up on behalf of them.

I'll start off with medical. I was here last night, so I heard quite a bit about the medical. I find in myself, and with other people I've talked to, that they feel like a slab of meat on a conveyer belt when they go through talking to doctors at the MIR, the hospital on base, and that first drug you'll receive is what's called a “soldier's smartie”—a Motrin.

I have a friend who was in an accident. He fell off the back of a truck while dismounting and hit his head on the bumper of the truck behind it. He felt a headache, so he went to our doctor. The doctor said, “Well, it's just a minor headache”. He did an inspection. “No big deal. Here's some Motrin and some Tylenol 3s”.

For a week and a half he still had this headache. He finally decided to come to the battle group medical station and found out that he had post-concussion syndrome. He required a CAT scan, because they wanted to know if any brain damage or any hemorrhaging had occurred. This is how fast you will go through the medical system in a regiment.

I myself have been over to the base hospital for what's called an exercise-induced asthma. They give you a Ventolin puffer or a Flovent, which is a corticosteroid.

I did some research myself and happened to find out that exercise-induced asthma can be taken care of by increasing the oxygen capacity in your lungs. So I've gone back to swimming, and have done my own sort of work to find out how to improve it, and it's worked. I find I no longer need the puffer.

If that's all that's required, why did I go through the medical system? Fifteen minutes in, 15 minutes out, or less than that.

In 1992 I went to Kuwait under UNIKOM, United Nations Iraq-Kuwait Observation Mission. Because of the environment and the insects that we could be subjected to, we were given what's called an anti-malarial drug. It's the same drug that was given to the soldiers in Somalia—mefloquine hydrochloride. I strictly remember seeing on the bottle, “For experimental use only”. And I know the soldier who has the bottle in a safety deposit box at the bank so that it won't get touched, so when it does come out that mefloquine hydrochloride causes instability in mental processes....

• 0945

For example, in Somalia, each company or each different group was given the drug on an opposing day—Sundays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays. The day after, they were unstable, had mental problems, had high stress, were strung out, had diarrhoea—medical problems that are being addressed as the Gulf War syndrome. Those days were nicknamed Manic Mondays, Wacky Wednesdays, and Freaky Fridays.

Until the surgeon general finally dictates that mefloquine hydrochloride does provide these instabilities, none of these soldiers who were given this drug, and who had no right to refuse it.... As you see, now we do, as in the anthrax vaccination that the sergeant had refused to take. Until the surgeon general gets off his duff and says, “Okay, yes, it does cause a problem. Let's see what we can do to reimburse these soldiers”, that's a medical problem that should be addressed.

On to my second thing. I think everybody here is speaking. Hey, I'm a master corporal. I admit I make $38,000 a year. I just moved out of the PMQs because I was appalled at the atrocious living conditions. So I bought a house. I had no down payment for a house, because I was trying to stay afloat in a PMQ. Fortunately I've been investing money into an RRSP for the past five years. I took that. I used that as my down payment.

I got into this house, and now, as I said, my next worry is HEAP. Will it be there when I go to move? I'm to the point where if I do have to get posted, I hope it's a three- or four-year posting to a school, such as the battle group or the Canadian Forces School of Military Engineering. I'm not taking my wife, just because of the fact that I can still own a house. I will not take a $17,000 or a $30,000 cut—and those are some of the numbers I've heard—because of selling my house.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MCpl Pat Eglinton: So $38,000—I have a house. Yes, I can say I have a couple of play toys and I have a vehicle that gets me to and from work. The reason I bought my house? I bought it five minutes' walking distance so my wife can walk to work so I can save money for gas.

I don't have a problem. I know I can make it with my pay. If my wife weren't working, then there would be a problem. Privates and corporals are living well below the poverty line, as far as I'm concerned, and the excuse I get is: free medical, free dental. Well, I just gave you an example of free medical.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MCpl Pat Eglinton: My policy is you don't make a complaint unless you have a suggestion. Soldiers pay income tax and provincial tax. If you want to give us a raise, we work for the Canadian government. I know that in some form of law there's a law that states that all Canadian citizens will pay tax. If you want to give each one of these soldiers a tax cut, fine. Erase the fact that they have to claim income tax. I know for me that means I get an extra $700 a month. So what if I can't claim my RRSP contributions at the end of the year? I make it up in that month.

Still pay UI benefits? Sure. As far as I'm concerned, it should be an unemployment tax, not an insurance, because I should be the one who's able to choose whether I want insurance or not.

So tax cuts: eliminate the provincial tax that I have to pay. I've done tours. I've gone for six months over to Yugoslavia. I've done three tours. I still come back, and I have to pay provincial tax for the whole year.

Income tax: if you eliminate income tax, you're still paying your soldiers $38,000, but now you don't have to worry about a pay raise, because we don't pay income tax. That's a suggestion. I don't know how it would come into effect. I know Canadian law dictates that all Canadian citizens will pay income tax.

A voice: Or a temporary war measure.

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Or a temporary war measure.

• 0950

So that's a suggestion for maybe getting rid of income tax. Any soldier who works for the country.... As I say, I get paid $38,000 a year, and I know the civilian side says we get paid more. As I say, we get paid 24 and 7, but we get paid for an eight-hour day for 40 hours a week. That's what it is. I can be called at 4 a.m. and again at 6 p.m. and be told to come back in. I can be gone weekends; it's like that.

There are other things about pay, like tours and FOA. Right now, Yugoslavia is what they call level 5 danger pay. A soldier makes roughly $1,400, depending on who you are and how long you've been in a foreign country. When I was in Kuwait, I found out that on a UN mission every soldier was paid between $150 to $180 U.S. a day for being there. Military observers are given the full amount, but they're required to pay for their own food and their own lodging wherever they are posted in the operation.

But for us, we're over there, we're subbed in canvas tenting, provided a bed, and maybe a desk to work on, for six months, with a couple of weekends off and a three-week vacation. If you total it up at $150 to $180 a day that works out to about $4,500 or $4,800. Meanwhile, I get $1,400 of that, so where did the other $3,000 go?

The FOA, the field operations allowance, for the field operation unit, at $12 a day, after taxes, works out to about $8 more or less.

Sea duty allowances and air crew allowances are given to their members for a 24-hour period, whether they're inside or outside and doing whatever. It's called “exposed to extreme environmental conditions”.

My brother works on the HMCS Calgary. He gets sea duty allowance every day, whether the ship's in dry dock or at sea. He gets his computer on board. He gets a weight room. He gets the galley. He can do whatever he wants when he's not on ship. That's inside. It's nice and warm on the boat. Granted, yes, he might have to go outside, so he does get paid sea duty allowance.

Air crew allowance is the same. For every 24 hours you're out, you get a specific amount, so the air crew, when they're out, are given their whole month's air crew allowance, whether they're inside or outside. They don't work 24 and 7.

And FOA? It's $12 and we're subjected to the environment for 24 hours a day. Granted, that's our job, but let's see some compensation for it. It's really pathetic when soldiers are going on UN tours to get paid in order to make ends meet—not because they want to go.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MCpl Pat Eglinton: My next point was mentioned last night: lateral progress. I work for the regimental sergeant-major of my regiment. I have to work on a computer and am required to have some organizational skills and other things. None of the computer education was provided to me by the army. I did it all myself.

I help to provide a way of taking the load off what we call “information services”. We have about 90 computers in the regiment and two guys to take care of them. I'm not legally allowed to do it, so I help them. If somebody has a problem and goes to IS, they say, “We're busy, but maybe Egg can help you out.” Egg is my nickname, if you didn't understand.

So I do. Somebody says their computer's slow and I say, this is the problem, you have to do this, you have to do that. I educate them. I try to provide them with something so that they don't have to sit there and wait for somebody to come and help them. That's today's world: you cannot do just the single job you were signed up to do.

When I signed up, I had a little piece of paper that said. “041, field engineer, explosives, bridging and heavy equipment, come and join us!”, and I thought, cool! That means I'm going to get a job at the end. I'm going to work my 20 years, get out and go and work for a blasting company or a construction firm.

When I joined, little did I know—but I found out—that was 042, and you have to do 041 before you can go to your heavy equipment in 042. So I was forced to do 041 for three years.

• 0955

What's the primary role of an engineer? To stop the enemy, to stop his advance, and to render us forward. Our secondary duty is to provide infantry support.

What does a 042 do? He's the heavy equipment side of it. I had to go through all that first before I decided if I wanted to go the 042 side. I made my choice. I live with it. I decided to stick with the 041 side because I enjoy it.

Many times in my career I've said, that's it, I'm sick and tired of it and I'm going to make a leap of faith and get out. Because that's what it is—a leap of faith. Can I get out and find a job that's going to pay the same amount? Am I going to be able to live the same lifestyle I've had? That's the leap of faith.

I can't now. I've just bought a house. I'm stuck until I pay for that house, which I'm doing fast so that I don't have to worry about it. I shouldn't have to.

With regard to lateral progression, if I was paid for every little job I did, you couldn't afford me.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MCpl Pat Eglinton: As I said, I drive the regimental sergeant-major. I drive him, so that's a chauffeur's job, which pays anywhere between $34,000 and $40,000 a year.

I'm also sometimes a bodyguard, on an operation or something like that. I know bodyguards get paid a good $50,000 or $60,000.

I have to clean. When I've gone on course—on my basic course, my threes course, my fives course, my CLC—I've had to do the cleaning jobs. Bent down and over, it looks as though I'm puking into a toilet. No, I'm actually cleaning it with a toothbrush, because that's what the sergeant wants to see. I've lived that.

Cleaners make $25,000 or $30,000.

On top of that, I help out with computers. I know goddam well a computer expert makes a hell of a lot more money than I do now.

On top of that, there's the job I do clearing minefields, bridging, demolition. I get paid $38,000 for that.

I've now come up to a total of almost $130,000. I don't see that.

So lateral progression might be a good thing if you want to look at that, and the amalgamation of trades, but it's a bad thing when you look at it...that I do more than I'm expected to do.

There's been mention of the CFAOs. As far as the CFAOs dictate, treason is still punishable by death. It's still in the CFAOs. Our volumes of orders, regulations, and administrative orders are so old they still say “punishable by death”.

There was mention of a union awhile back. I speak on behalf of probably most of these people here: it could work and it might not work. A union is not what we need.

• 1000

The RCMP has had an association for years now, and I think it's about time the army had an association, at least something that will allow us to voice our opinions or our problems, instead of having to wait for a commanding officer to say, okay, sergeants and higher, leave; so, junior ranks, what are your problems, what's your beef?

I know our commanding officer has voiced his opinion. What happens after that, I don't know. It probably went to the CDS, and the CDS said, well, if they don't like it, they can get out.

So an association somewhere or a committee to which we can voice our opinions, which are going to be directly relayed to Ottawa.... That's why you're here. My opinion is, don't kill the messenger. I'm just voicing my opinion to you so that you can go back with some 105 power behind it.

That's basically about all.

I had a point here about PMQs, but I think that was open last night and was well done.

The Chairman: Mr. Wood, do you have a question?

Mr. Bob Wood: I do. Corporal, you hit on so many excellent subjects, but I want to go back to the tours.

You were mentioning Kuwait and the disparity in money. Can you explain a little bit more to me about it? You were saying you picked up $100 or $150 U.S. a day. Is that for Canadian troops or just for U.S. troops, or how does that work?

MCpl Pat Eglinton: We didn't pick that up. What we were told was that at that time, the Kuwait tour, it was $150 a day to every member of the UN.

Mr. Bob Wood: Of UN forces.

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Of the UN forces.

It's not, for example, IFOR or SFOR. But I have done two tours with the UN, and I've heard both stories, $150 U.S. a day provided to each person or each soldier of a contingent while they were on tour.

Mr. Bob Wood: You said it worked out to a little over $4,000.

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Roughly. I didn't work the figures out myself, but we figure—

Mr. Bob Wood: You only saw $1,400, though.

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Yes, $1,400 out of.... If you take $180 a day, that's 1,810 days. Well, I worked the six, then.

Mr. Bob Wood: And nobody knows where the other $3,000 went?

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Through some of the research I've done, I found that it comes back to Canada. Canada gets their cut out of it for taxes, and then in turn, it sends money back so that rations can be bought and the places that are rented over there for us are provided and paid for.

Mr. Bob Wood: Okay.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: I'm very interested in your comments about the vaccinations, mefloquine....

MCpl Pat Eglinton: That's mefloquine hydrochloride.

Mr. Art Hanger: Right. There hasn't been any determination even south of the border on that particular drug.

MCpl Pat Eglinton: I understand that, sir.

It was a drug that we were given as an anti-malarial. Other than the proven, and FDA—or whatever the Canadian form of it is—approved quinine, which is an anti-malarial, why we were given an experimental drug is beyond my reason. I took it because of the fact that I don't want to end up with malaria, so that was my choice. But the fact that it was an experimental drug, given to members of both the UNIKOM and the Somalia UN mission is a question now of what happened. Why were we given an experimental drug that even in Kuwait was proven to provide an unstable mental ability the day after?

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes, I know it came up in the Somalia inquiry, and there wasn't really a conclusion attached to that particular usage of that drug even in the Somalia inquiry.

But the other thing that seemed to be very evident is that there was a lack of good, sound data that was required actually in the usage of that drug by Canadian personnel. They did not have a good log of who was using it, how much, and for what period of time.

• 1005

MCpl Pat Eglinton: All I know is in Kuwait we were asked to take it once a week. It was the same in Somalia. They just broke it down into three days. Once a week we took the drug, and the very next day we always went to the doc, who asked how we were feeling. I don't know whether any records were taken, but I know every day after, or at least a couple of days after, we were provided some sort of medical advice. We were asked if we were feeling okay, or how we were working.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. Did you have any side effects?

MCpl Pat Eglinton: I have not had any side effects. My wife thinks I have.

Voices: Oh, oh!

MCpl Pat Eglinton: I will admit that when I came back from tour they noticed there was a change. I was quick to the gun and pulling the trigger. I was snappy. I did recognize it myself, and have come to control that urge or ability.

Mr. Art Hanger: I understand there were some army personnel as well as those present on I think it was the HMCS Toronto, who were recipients of the anthrax vaccination. What have you heard about that since?

MCpl Pat Eglinton: The anthrax vaccination had to be taken in two distinct injections. I heard about a sergeant whose first injection nearly put the man in his grave. He refused the second injection and is presently pending charges of insubordination and refusal of orders.

Mr. Art Hanger: I'm aware of that. Do you think that should be the case?

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Based on human rights, no. He should have had a choice whether to take the drug or not.

Mr. Art Hanger: That's kind of a difficult analysis or example to follow. If you're going into a zone where there's that threat, should there not be an order issued the way it was?

MCpl Pat Eglinton: I'll give you an example. We practise what's called NBCW, nuclear biological chemical warfare. We use what's called the bunny suit, which is actually a carbon charcoal filter encased in cloth. For about five years, from when I first joined in 1989, we used a repellent for insects called Nero. In one exercise I happened to be wearing my bunny suit, and on it you put what's called NBCW paper, which can tell you whether you've been subjected to a blistering agent, a neurological agent or a chemical agent. The mosquitoes were so bad—that's why we were wearing it—around the face, I went to put this Nero on. You patch one NBCW paper on your shoulder, one on your wrist and one on your leg. I asked them to spray all around my face, and I sprayed the chemical detector paper on my shoulder. It immediately turned yellow, which was a sign of a blistering agent.

I looked at it and said “Wow”. That was the last time I ever used Nero. It was in the system for five years. I suffered. I actually went out and bought my own Off! Skintastic or whatever. I went out and bought my own insect repellent. I can understand why bugs didn't bug you after that.

I can probably speak about a few people who used Nero and noticed it was a blistering agent.

Mr. Art Hanger: I know the anthrax vaccination was not something our surgeon general really made a ruling on. But I know the Americans had been using such a vaccination, as had the British. But because of the circumstances, Canadian military personnel were vaccinated with that particular drug. Have you heard about any others suffering side effects from the drug?

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Anthrax? No. You have to look at it case by case. Out of one thousand people, you will unforeseeably have one person who will have a violent reaction to something.

Mr. Art Hanger: Possibly, yes.

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Maybe I'm speaking on behalf of him, but now that person is being charged with insubordination, when he knows he can't take it. Does that still make a soldier undeployable? Yes, if you want to look at it one way, because now he can't go into a combat area. But are you telling me that 66,000 troops will be able to defend Canada in a war? It took a million and a half in World War I.

• 1010

So you're looking at that. Sure, we should be practising protecting our country, but in this day and age, when Canadian soldiers have been recognized for their peacekeeping ability, don't call it an armed forces then, call it a peacekeeping force, and direct our work and environment to go to that direction. We're good at that.

We're using 30-year-old kits that we can fix on a dime because we learned how to do it. We use it and we make it work.

I don't know how many times I've been driving an APC and it shut down. I say, okay, and out I get. I don't wait for a mechanic like in American forces. They say they can't fix that so they wait for a mechanic. A mechanic comes up and says they need a part, so they have to wait for the parts guy. The parts guy comes up and gives them the part, the mechanic puts it in, and the guy drives away. You can't do that.

That's what the Canadian soldiers have done. They've gotten to the point where they can go out and say they know how to fix that. A mechanic gets up there and says a shaft is busted on the APC. He asks how they got that out. Well, they used a wrench. All right, he puts it in, and then maybe half an hour later, they're driving down the road, whereas it would be a day for an American soldier to do it. Americans are so dictated in what their job is.

Take, for example, when I was on my course at Fort Lewis. We went down to see a bridging exercise that happened down there. They have one guy whose primary job is to put a nose pin in. He doesn't do anything else. That's what he gets paid for. In the Canadian Forces, each one of the engineers we see here knows how to do every job. What about lateral progression? I'm now doing the job of maybe 16 different soldiers of the American armed forces.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you.

The Chairman: Mr. Clouthier.

Mr. Hec Clouthier: Pat, I'm very impressed with your open and candid remarks, but one thing did concern me, and I guess it's been rather pervasive here last night and again today. Millie indicated and intimated that perhaps there are some who are actually intimidated even coming to the microphone and expressing their concerns.

I just want to make one thing perfectly clear: we in the defence committee were led to believe that anyone who wanted to express their opinion in an open and a transparent manner would be allowed to do so. If there is any one of you who is going to suffer punitive action as a result of your comments or is intimidated, please let anyone on this committee know or write a letter to the defence committee, because that is not what we were led to believe.

We look upon this as a serious breach of professional conduct. In no way, shape, or form—I believe I'm speaking for the entire committee—will we put up with this. This is after after hearing some of the people speaking, especially someone like Millie, who is already out there and saying that she doesn't have to worry about the repercussions.

So I just want to make it perfectly clear to anyone in this auditorium or anyone else that we are here to listen to your concerns.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MCpl Pat Eglinton: Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you very much. Colonel, you have something to say?

Lieutenant-Colonel Walter Natynczyk (Acting Commander, 2CMBG, CFB Petawawa): Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, soldiers of 2 Brigade, my name is Lieutenant-Colonel Walt Natynczyk, commanding officer, Royal Canadian Dragoons. At this point in time, I'm the acting brigade commander; General Hillier is on duty outside the country.

I just want to make sure everyone knows what General Hillier told his old group, including all the RSMs on Friday. He encouraged all the commanding officers to make sure their soldiers have the opportunity to come today. Therefore—this is what the master corporal said—there would be no AWOL charges for anyone being here today. He was absolutely clear about that.

Folks, please come on up here and speak from your hearts. That's what we heard last night. That's what we're hearing today, and it's great. Speak from your heart. Tell the truth. I'm really happy to hear it.

Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

This being said, we have another 17 witnesses to hear, and we have roughly about another 45 minutes, so I would ask the witnesses to please keep their presentations as short and concise as possible. I would ask my colleagues to please keep their questions also as short as possible because we really do want to hear everyone here this morning.

• 1015

The next witness is Sergeant Rod MacDougall.

Sergeant Rod MacDougall (Individual Presentation): Good morning. I'll try to keep it short and sum up as quickly as I can.

I was here last night for approximately four hours waiting for you and the committee to get on with listening to quite a few people who were wanting to speak here. Unfortunately, in the last few months we've been compared quite a lot to the civil service, and the whole civil service attitude of “We got here at 8 o'clock and we want to be leaving by 11 o'clock” doesn't wash with the army. Yesterday morning I came into work at 6 a.m. I was done at 6 p.m. That's a 12-hour day and it's an average for us. We work a 60-hour week around here.

Right now I have my section, who I have a responsibility to ensure are trained properly for Op Palladium rotation three. The thing about everyone being able to come over here is, sure, you're allowed to come over here and you can either do the training and make sure you might not get killed in Yugoslavia or come here and chit-chat with your guys all day. I have a responsibility to them and I believe as elected representatives you have a responsibility to us, every single person in this room, to take what we say and pass it up. You're our chain of command at this point.

I joined the army 17 years ago. I say the army. I'm not in the armed forces; I'm in the combat arms and I'm an army soldier of Canada. In regard to the points I have to make, I'm not here to whine; I'm basically here to tell you that I have a couple of solutions, as I see them, for problems that are somewhat rampant within the forces today.

One of the big ones is pay. Everyone keeps indicating pay, pay, pay, give us more. If you give us more pay and you tax the hell out of us, we don't get anything. No problem there, right? One thing that was mentioned was taxes, but what I see as a benefit that could be basically revenue neutral for you guys to give to us is this. Anyone in Alberta right now pays 0% provincial sales tax. If you're posted in Newfoundland you pay 13%. In the U.S. army if you use base facilities, the commissary, the PX or base rec facilities you don't pay any state sales tax or whatever, it's zero. If you did that for us here, and say you paid the lowest common denominator, which is Alberta, 0% sales tax for any base facility, the CANEX here would be thriving, people would be using the facilities, the base fund would be in the green so far that they'd be able to buy new gym equipment and we wouldn't have to come to the taxpayer to pay for it.

That's well within your realm to do, because there's no reason for it. We're a small army. Our army is 15,000, not 60,000. The army here is 15,000, so to say you couldn't do that for 15,000 people without saying we're meant to be a group here to support an impoverished local economy is bull.

That's not what we're meant to do here. We're stuck in a somewhat isolated area. My wife is a teacher who can't get a job here. She knew that; we're married and she's been with me for 12 years now. It's a long haul. But if you want to make sure that I have enough money on a single-family income, you just do that one thing with the taxes and it will solve a lot of problems. That's a 7% pay increase for everyone here. If any of the civilians want to complain about it downtown, let them join the army, then they can do a 60-hour week.

I'm a bit luckier than most. I spent 11 of my 17 years overseas and I made extra pay because of that. Because of that, I was able to buy a condominium, and so I'm a landlord now as well as having the house I live in. As a landlord, I know that the Ontario Landlord and Tenant Act would allow any of my renters to withhold pay from me. Any of these people who are unfortunate enough to live in the PMQs have their pay garnisheed, basically; it comes right out of their pay before they ever see it, for the most atrocious living conditions you can ever imagine. If every one of these people had the right to say, “I'm going to pay by cheque, and I'm not going to pay you, Mr. Canadian Forces Housing Authority, until you have a guy in my house fixing this problem, this problem, and this problem”, then it would be dealt with.

• 1020

As well, these houses were made in the 1950s. It probably cost $5,000 to build each of them. They now have people paying, on average, about $350 in rent. I think anyone should have the right to see the books showing where the hell that money's going. There's no way the houses cost $350 to upkeep right now, because no one's getting the upkeep done. The taxes on this place are in lieu of, so no one's paying any property taxes either.

I think everyone here should be given a statement from that company or the government showing where their $350 is going every month. Because I'm sure if you took it for one year, you could put $4,000 or $5,000 in repairs to each of their homes and make them liveable. If it's just going to line the pockets of another bureaucrat, that's the wrong message you're sending the people here.

As well, Doug Young, when he was Minister of National Defence a couple of years back, said education was a priority. That came from the three-member panel that was put out here. As it is right now, from my point of view, we have the most educated officer corps of any army in the world. Some people might beg to differ.

Unfortunately, if you look at the U.S. army, most of their senior NCOs have some type of degree or another, all paid for by being a member of the military. For us, it's a cost of $2,500 over the course of our career. You can also get various loans at very low interest, but again, we're in the army. We're on 24 and 7, we're going to Yugoslavia 6 months out of every 18. That's a relatively intense type of job, where you can't just take time off as you will.

As I said before, I'm not a civil servant. I signed on the dotted line and knew what I was doing. I hate being compared with a civil servant. Your title is “Mister”, or in the case of some of you right now, “the Honourable”. My title is “Sergeant”, and I'm proud of that. I'm a soldier, and that's what I want to do with my life.

I want to make sure the information you guys are getting passed on to you isn't utterly useless drivel. I've been in the army long enough to see so many panels come and go that I wonder if you guys are just another panel filling in your time so that you'll have something to do.

I was here last night, and I saw four of you ask questions. Some of you are just sitting there and sitting there and sitting there, taking it all in, getting a photo op. It's disgusts me.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Sgt Rod MacDougall: The thing about sea pay was gone over, as was air pay. We're paid field pay on a daily basis, but as I said, everyone in this room is in the army. To make the pay system much more streamlined there's no reason why we couldn't get told, okay, you're in the army. You're going to get $200 a month every single month. You can budget that in your pay. You don't have to think, well, I was in the field this month for four weeks, but seven months from now, when the pay system gets caught up, you'll see it, or you'll see $92, because you're not exactly sure any more how much you are supposed to be getting.

Lateral progression and the pay system you've also been talking about. Someone was saying last night that they're concerned that a corporal might be making more than a sergeant. Anyone who's making spec 2 pay in a lot of the technical trades is making more than I am anyway, as a corporal. I think that's only right, based on the fact that they have technical ability.

We're going over to Yugoslavia in three months, and we've just been told that the hostility bonus is no longer in effect because they're not shooting at each other. My job is removing landmines from the ground. As I explained to Mr. Hanger last night, we still do that on occasion. On our first tour, we were doing it in the hundreds. A lot of the guys here, the engineers, can attest to that fact.

So if you're not shooting at me, that's just an added bonus, because when I'm taking a landmine out of the ground, that gets me a bit more edgy.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Sgt Rod MacDougall: That's pretty well it. Thanks.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Mr. Price.

Mr. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, PC): Thank you very much.

Actually, this is the first time I am speaking right now, but the whole reason for this whole process is to be here to listen to you. That's what we're doing. If we start doing an awful lot of talking here, then that takes time away from your talking to us. That's the primary reason.

• 1025

The other thing, too, that was mentioned a little earlier about this particular group is that we mustn't forget that this is the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs. It's the first time that it's moved out like this, as a group of MPs coming to the bases and listening to your problems. I would say that we are here to listen. Yes, if we need clarification on certain things, we will ask questions, but actually it's getting across very clearly and there are very few questions to ask. You are being very clear in what you are saying, and that's what we're here for, to listen.

Sgt Rod MacDougall: It just goes to prove the fact that the system is broken. You should be hearing all of our concerns from the chain of command as it goes up to you. The fact that anything we're saying to you is news means that it's not working.

Mr. David Price: I agree totally, 100%. As we started out from one end of the country to the other, we've been surprised by all kinds of things we've been hearing that we never did hear before. The standing committee tends to hear witnesses coming directly to Ottawa. Those witnesses we hear are usually the top brass. We should be hearing the right thing from them. We haven't, obviously. So we're quite happy to hear this. Again, I say, we're here to listen.

Sgt Rod MacDougall: The top brass are the only ones who can afford to live in Ottawa, sir.

Mr. David Price: Or get driven down there.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, David. Leon.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to make two quick points. One is that I agree with you that what should happen with rent is that it should not be deducted from your cheque. I think you're going to get an awful lot better service than getting the PMQs fixed up and maybe put into a reasonable state if you can withhold your rent and go through the normal process—

Sgt Rod MacDougall: The Landlord and Tenant Act of Ontario.

Mr. Leon Benoit: —just like anyone else would. I think it would give you a lot of power. I think that does make sense, especially now that the PMQs have been handed over to an agency that is supposed to be somewhat at arm's length from the government.

The second is just to clarify that last night I asked a question about whether there would be a problem with a lower rank who has the special training getting paid higher than a higher rank. I personally don't have a problem with that. I was just looking for the reaction of the person to whom I was addressing the question.

Sgt Rod MacDougall: So many people keep talking about it. They did the task study back in the early 1990s and said there is going to be concern over it. There are already people in that boat, every single guy is making spec 1 or spec 2 pay. He's already making more. You haven't had mutiny from the senior ranks up to this point. I don't think it will happen in the future.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I think it's a good idea and the way to go. I think it should be done more. Thank you.

The Chairman: Judi.

• 1030

Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): I want to make it perfectly clear I'm not here for a photo op, and when I leave here, I'm not going to sit in a coffee shop and have coffee. I have been travelling with this committee since the early part of January. I have been in almost every military base between Yellowknife and here, and we're not finished yet. And I will be travelling with members of the committee to Bosnia.

I'm here to listen. All of you have made extremely articulate presentations. There is nothing left after you're finished. You've made it very clear. I'm reserving my questions for those members who come from NDHQ, to put them on the spot and to take the concerns you're expressing to me and ask them to justify why they're acting the way in which they are.

Again, as Mr. Price said, the more we speak, the less opportunity we have to hear you. We've come here to hear you because we know your concerns are the critical concerns. Your concerns are the concerns we need to address, and we're going to do it in a very open and public forum. Unlike other committees that have been here, our report doesn't get put on the shelf. Our report is tabled in the House of Commons. It's a public document. You don't have to apply through freedom of information to get a copy of it. You will know exactly what we said. It will be available to all of you.

I thank all of you for coming. I want to hear from as many more people as I possibly can before we have to move on to do other government business. It's not that we're shirking our duties. We start at six o'clock in the morning and we're not finished until midnight either.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Debbie Charlebois. Debbie's not here?

Dale Pitcher.

Master Corporal Dale Pitcher (Individual Presentation): Good morning. I'd like to talk to you about four separate issues. Hopefully they will allow people in the future to have better service.

The first one is about eyeglasses and the corrective procedure of laser keratotomy, for those who choose it, as opposed to supplying glasses for 35 years. The cost savings there are enormous, upwards of $2,500 to $4,000 per person.

The second is accountability. On numerous occasions I have heard it said that this person who does that job isn't accountable, the member is, or this person over here, for instance, at the pay office. If you're being overpaid, it's your responsibility to go back and correct it rather than that of the pay office people to do their job.

The third is the judicial system of the armed forces. First, how does the military justify either a commanding officer or a delegated officer with no legal training hearing a criminal case? Any offence against the National Defence Act is a criminal offence, whether it is tried summarily or by court martial.

Fourth is the pensions. If you get out before 20 years, you get return of contributions. Well, I've done the math, and at the end of 19.99 years, at $100 a month, my pension that I have contributed—and the army matches that—would be worth almost $153,000. If I take my release early and I get out, I get $41,000. Who pockets the other $110,000?

That's all I have.

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: Corporal, would you go over the statement on point number three, I think it was, on the military justice system?

• 1035

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Well, my understanding is if you get charged with a service offence, let's say assault, and if you are tried before a delegated officer who has no legal background—say this is an infantry officer, combat arms officer, maintenance officer, or supply officer—he has the authority to send you to jail.

Mr. Art Hanger: Right. Who would you want to preside?

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Someone with some legal training.

Mr. Art Hanger: A lawyer?

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Perhaps. That's what judges are downtown, are they not? They're ex-lawyers who have some background in the judicial system.

Another point of this is that if you're charged with an offence downtown, the punishments are laid out in black and white before you start, no matter what level of court you're tried in. In the military justice system, as you progress from delegated officer to commanding officer and so on up the chain, the powers of detention and punishment get greater for the same offence.

Mr. Art Hanger: Right. Isn't that appropriate?

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Well, as a Canadian citizen, am I not entitled to the same punishment no matter who charged me?

Mr. Art Hanger: No, you're in the military.

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Well, according to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I'm entitled to a fair and public hearing. I think it's paragraph 11(d) of the charter.

Mr. Art Hanger: Well, that may be in some of the charter arguments, but should they all apply to the military?

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Am I not a Canadian citizen?

Mr. Art Hanger: Sure you are.

MCpl Dale Pitcher: I'm willing to lay my life down for this country.

Mr. Art Hanger: Yes, there's no doubt you are.

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Should I not be treated equally as all other Canadian citizens?

Mr. Art Hanger: Well, I guess herein lies the difference. When you join the military, you give up certain rights, but on the other side of the coin—

MCpl Dale Pitcher: I pay my taxes.

Mr. Art Hanger: —there's a certain responsibility on the part of the political and military leadership to protect you too. I guess another point of debate is over this whole issue of the military justice system.

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Sure.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you.

MCpl Dale Pitcher: Are there any other questions?

The Chairman: No, thank you very much.

Bob.

Mr. Bob Wood: Corporal Pitcher, it's just a fact that we are looking at the judicial system in the forces. I just wanted to make that clear to him. Something is starting to move. I think our first committee meeting on Bill C-25, which is a review of the judicial system, takes place this Wednesday. So some of his concerns might be dealt with when we look again at the bill.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Wood.

Corporal Coppicus. Did I pronounce that right?

Corporal P.G. Coppicus (Individual Presentation): Yes, you did.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak. One of the benefits of waiting this long is that all my questions have been fielded.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Angela Malejczuk.

Ms. Angela Malejczuk (Individual Presentation): Good morning, honourable members and Mr. Chairman.

I think the issue that I wanted to bring to the floor this morning has been exhausted quite extensively, and that was with regard to pay, but I do have a couple of different perspectives on that issue that I would like to bring forward.

Many people have mentioned lateral training and being well versed in many jobs. Well, I'm an army wife, and I think I'm very good at it. We've lived on four bases in six years of marriage, and I've worked at every posting. I've done blue collar work, pink collar work and white collar work.

I can tell you that in the civilian world we're underpaid as well, but the difference lies in some of the incentives that exist in the civilian world that are not open to military members. In what I felt was one of my most challenging jobs, my salary was extremely low, $20,000, but I was paid for my overtime and I got bonuses when I saved company money.

• 1040

In the military, people of equal rank are paid the same amount, regardless of their responsibility and their accountability. A person of rank A who is responsible for lives and millions of dollars of equipment can potentially be paid the same amount of money for someone in charge of the typing pool.

The only thing I can do is get right to my point with a solution. I can't take credit for this idea; it was shared with me last night by a man I feel has true vision and is a good senior officer in this army, and that is the opportunity to have income splitting.

I can't get a job every time we move, and it's getting more and more difficult to do so. If my husband's income could be split between the two of us, we would ultimately pay less tax, and as an added bonus, it would let me have a higher RRSP contribution as well. But don't dock his. It is difficult for me to get a job every time we move.

That's all I have.

The Chairman: Thank you very much for that interesting suggestion.

Sergeant Kevin Byrne.

Sergeant Kevin Byrne (Individual Presentation): Good morning. I just want to say, first of all, that it's not all army in here. I am in the air force.

My name is Sergeant Kevin Byrne. I am an aviation tech serving with 427 Tactical Helicopter Squadron, located here in CFB Petawawa.

For a number of years I've been hearing the term “quality of life” being bandied around. I'd like to know what that means. Is it new paint for our hangar, new boots for our air crew, or is it supposed to mean something deeper and more meaningful?

Quality of life for my wife and I changed drastically when on February 19, 1991, we came face to face with the greatest horror parents can face, and that is the loss of a child. Ian Daniel was two weeks short of his second birthday. He was not sick; he was just a healthy young boy who went to bed and never woke up. We were devastated. We could not eat. We could not think straight. Somehow we got through it with support from family and friends. I wish I could say the military were there to help, but with the exception of a few military personnel—and I mean a few—the military just added to the problems.

If you'll bear with me, I'd like to briefly describe what my life and my family's life has been for the last six years. As for support, it took four months for the RC padre to come and visit my wife and me after our son had died. He was on the base. In a matter of weeks after my son had died, we received a letter from at that time Captain Miller, who was serving over in the Gulf War. He took the time to write us, but the RC padre couldn't take the time to come and visit us.

The Protestant padre—and I am a Catholic, by the way—provided grief counselling for me, and not for my wife. The mess, which I had been a member of for 10 years, did not send a card or flowers. Their comment was, “We don't do that for relatives”. I think my son was more than a relative.

The military family resource centre didn't know where to go to get help for us. We had to do that on our own. In Winnipeg, I called the RC padre personally from Camp Borden to arrange that he say a mass on the anniversary of our son's death, which fell on a Sunday. A fellow Cape Bretoner, he guaranteed me that it would be done. My wife and I, for the first time in years, went back to the church, and he even let us down at this.

The career manager—or as people have been calling them, the career mangler—one month to the day of my son's death, tells me that come hell or high water I am being posted. Prior to that briefing we were told, if you don't accept posting, get out. I tried to explain to him what happened to us, what happened to our son. He relented a bit and said, “Well, we won't send you to Cold Lake or Goose Bay”.

• 1045

In December 1991, we received a screening message for Cold Lake. That was changed to Winnipeg after we reminded the career manager of what he had said. We accepted the posting to Winnipeg, hoping that this would help us out with trying to get on with our lives. It was a mistake. We had left behind all the support and help that had got us through a rough year.

There was very little support in Winnipeg. I became clinically depressed—I guess that's what they call it. I was being treated for depression. I was drinking. A lot happened that shouldn't have, because there just wasn't the support there that my wife and I needed.

We attempted to try to get back to an area where we could gain family support and support from my wife's friends. We kept being told no. No, no, no. I said I would go back to sea. I spent eleven years at Shearwater and served aboard four ships. I had no problem with going to sea.

In 1996, we were asked if we would go to Petawawa. Out of desperation in trying to get back close to where my son is buried, we accepted under one condition: that if an opening at Shearwater came, we would be considered. In the fall I talked with the career manager, and he said that under no circumstances would I be considered for a posting at Shearwater.

My wife, after trying for a year to gain employment in Petawawa as a legal secretary, finally accepted a position at the Department of Justice in Nova Scotia. She and my son are presently living there now.

I tried again to gain a posting back to the maritimes in order to try to straighten out my life and the life of my family, to no avail. We asked if we could be posted in the 1997 budget. No. We asked to be posted under a French course. No. We asked to be posted under a compassionate posting. No.

The career manager finally offered that if my squadron, Tactical Helicopter Squadron, would pay for the move, they would move us. That may work in a Herc squadron or in an Aurora squadron, where cancelling one mission would bring up the money to pay for a move. In a tac-hel squadron, we're lucky if we have the funds to pay for our operations. We even offered to move ourselves, to pay for it on our own. They haven't even come back with an answer on that.

As for my wife's work, my wife is a secretary to a Nova Scotia provincial court judge. He was not only her boss, he was also her friend. The day Ian died, he was the first person there and the last person to leave. We had to leave that friendship behind.

I'm feeling a little emotional here, so please bear with me.

You have probably heard some of these complaints from other service members, but add in grief and the problem magnifies. While at Shearwater, I would visit Ian's grave at every chance. Even now, when we go home to Nova Scotia, Ian's is the first place we stop.

I am not trying to get out of anything. I have done two peacekeeping tours, have served aboard four ships, and carry a 50-pound ruck with the best. All I wanted was to try to improve the quality of life for my family. After 25 years, it appears the military is not willing to even help me with that.

In a recent visit to our mess by the Chief of the Defence Staff, he said that if we can't hack it, we should get out. Well, I guess it's time to get out. I don't want to get out. I enjoy the military. But it is now time to put my family first. I'll leave it with you: if all the good people get out, what are we left with?

[Editor's Note: Applause from the audience]

The Chairman: Mr. Hanger.

Mr. Art Hanger: Sergeant, under what chain of command do the career managers fit?

Sgt Kevin Byrne: I have no idea, sir. I don't even think they know what they're doing.

Mr. Art Hanger: Are they under the command of the base commander?

Sgt Kevin Byrne: No, they serve in Ottawa, sir. As a matter of fact, as a 42-year-old sergeant with 25 years in the Canadian military, I am not allowed to talk personally to my career manager. I have to do that through a third party. You tell me what kind of support they're going to give me when they won't even talk to me.

• 1050

Mr. Art Hanger: This hasn't always been the case, has it, with the career manager so separate?

Sgt Kevin Byrne: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: Always?

Sgt Kevin Byrne: Yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: Okay. Thank you, Sergeant.

The Chairman: Sergeant, with respect to the services that you said you needed during these hard times, were they there but inadequate or were they non-existent?

Sgt Kevin Byrne: They were non-existent. To give you an example, as a crew chief in Winnipeg I had a young French Canadian who served on my crew. His wife was having a hard time living in Winnipeg because she was not living in Quebec. I went out of my way to try to work with him and the social workers to try to get him a compassionate posting. Eventually he did get posted back to Quebec. I thought that my wife and I, with the loss of our son, were a little more in need of compassion, but it was not to be.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Pat Eagar.

Mr. Pat Eagar (Individual Presentation): Mr. Chair, honourable members, you're looking at a dinosaur.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Pat Eagar: I joined the Canadian Armed Forces, the Canadian Army, on September 23, 1957, and what we are doing now is sort of reinventing the wheel. We're talking about lateral pay now when in fact we already had it in the system at that time.

With respect to quality of leadership, I was very fortunate, I suppose, as a young soldier. The majority of the people I went to serve with had served in World War II or in Korea and had a lot of experience. They knew how to handle soldiers. The most important asset to the forces is the soldier, the private, the corporal, the worker.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Mr. Pat Eagar: The officers led, and the reason they were good officers was that they had good platoon warrants or good platoon sergeants. You ask any general who is worth his weight in gold, and he will tell you that he is good as he is today because of his platoon sergeant or his platoon warrant.

With respect to equipment, when I joined, the helmet I was issued was a World War I pattern helmet. The battle dress I was issued was World War II. The rifle I had had the same type of action as the one my uncle took over in World War I, the Lee-Enfield rifle. Today the forces are in almost as bad shape. The equipment we have is worn out, it's time-expired, and there's not enough of it. Finally we are now getting some new armoured fighting vehicles.

Again, about the lateral pay and the fact that as a warrant officer I am making slightly less than some private or corporal because of the person's lateral pay...it was always in the books in the old system. You could have a group three private who would probably be making more than the platoon sergeant, depending on his skills at the time. It was something that disappeared in 1967 when we did integration of the forces.

We did away with that, and as well, we lost a lot of benefits at that time. They came along and asked why a married man should be getting these allowances when the private soldier didn't have them. They said they were going to give the private soldier the allowances, and, they said, “We're now going to tax you on it”.

The point has been brought up, maybe last night, and particularly here on this base...as you're probably aware, it's a very high-intensity base. The amount of UN operations that have been mounted out of here since 1988 has been just phenomenal. The toll on the families has been extremely high. For the period of time that I spent with the Royal Canadian Regiment and the Canadian Airborne Regiment, it was phenomenal. We were just on the move all the time, plus there were postings every two or three years. You had no chance to set down roots. Children did not know their grandparents.

The point about medical pensions has been brought up. I'm drawing a rather substantial medical pension because of injuries I received when I was in the forces. In some cases that could have been eliminated had people used common sense, and had the medical treatment been a little better.

• 1055

Thank you very much.

[Editor's Note: applause from audience]

The Chairman: Laurie Gagnon.

Ms. Laurie Gagnon (Individual Presentation): Good morning. Our points are going to be brief, just in case our little black box goes off.

My first point is on base housing. I know last night things were getting kind of hot with people saying housing is in bad shape. It is in bad shape, but the housing corporation has picked up what was given to them. They've been given a wreck to fix up, which they've only had for a year.

I've been living on this base for almost five years and last summer was the first time I happened to see a roof being shingled, which I never saw even when I was in Cornwallis or Valcartier, Quebec. I never saw a roof shingled, but last year when housing took over, there was a roof shingled. Yes, the PMQs are a mess, but that's what they've been given.

So on their behalf, I have to give them credit where credit is due. They are doing the best they can with what they have and what they were given. Also, I was in the house that they have now. So if anybody wanted to complain, I got moved out and I moved two doors down. They now are in my house.

The big thing, especially on the south side of the PMQs...I considered that when I first moved here. My husband almost cried, because we were moved from Ottawa and he was so embarrassed to say this is where we are going to be living. It looked like a barn. The wood siding had that barn red with the brick half way up; down east that would be considered a barn, because down there we side our barns. It was the attitude of people living there. You're going to act like you're living in a slum if it looks like a slum, and I think that was the main point of attitude. There was lots of dirt. The places were a mess. Yes, there was mould in the windows and they froze up with about two inches thick of ice, and your sheers would stick to the glass and all this stuff.

That's the attitude people would have. If you live in a slum, you're still going to treat it like a slum.

I do believe in the task program. I can use my husband for an example. He is, I consider, a computer expert. He's had no formal training. Most of what he has he learned by himself and he seems to be high above average in his capabilities for doing so. I can only use him for an example because I'm fortunate enough not to be in the regiment. He's at base headquarters.

I can use last year as an example, where you had a sergeant, the master warrant officer and a captain use the example, “You're just a corporal; you can't talk to an officer.” But when he was in the mail room stamping letters—that's a high profile—he was hauled out of there at a moment's notice and asked, can you do slides, can you work this, can you fix this computer? Yet in regard to the little special jobs he really wanted to do, which involved working with the computers, he was told, no, you can't, because you're admin and you're just a corporal. It took him to have a heart attack in January because of the stress in R and D, where you have one or two guys working as six, where they were working 16, almost 18 hours a day.... During posting time it is insane. They work these guys in and out.

• 1100

So when he has his heart attack...to avoid stress he's allowed to do his computer job so he does not get too worked up. Well, that's nice.

Now things are starting again, where you say, “Here's a little something we want”, like the slide presentation you guys saw Monday morning. That was my husband's job; he did that. Again, you see these little things: oh, we have a little job for you. He was asked to come back Sunday night to work for an hour and a half; it was three hours. But you're not supposed to do anything extra because you're a corporal and you're not allowed to look after.... But there's no recognition given.

I think all these guys do 150% in a job with poor equipment, poor uniforms, poor housing, poor salary, and they still walk with pride and their head erect saying yes, I'm here, and I'm doing a damn fine job.

I've heard tax cuts; that's a good thing. As my husband has told you guys before, I have been fortunate enough to be a professional. I have been able to find employment after I've spent thousands of dollars out of my own pocket to get there.

I come from Nova Scotia, with a nursing background, and I'm told by Toronto that I haven't the brains God gave a goose. So I have to spend $2,000 plus—that's just the course; that's not child care on top of it—in order to get employed and then turn around and get posted out four months later to good old Petawawa, and again hope to get a job, again going through courses.

I happened to be fortunate enough that I walked in the door at the right time, when they were looking. I'm fortunate. I am more than fortunate, because I have no idea how I would make it if I were not working and making the kind of money I am.

My third point is, I think the Canadian public, on the civilian side—I don't mean civilian employees, because they're in a realm of their own—should be educated on what the military does and what they have to put up with. I don't think they have any idea what families, husbands, wives, children.... Anyone who lives in the houses knows what goes on. They have no idea how they would even cope if all of a sudden they got a phone call at 2 a.m. saying “bug out”, or whatever is the code they use, and they're flying down the highway. I get paid $70 for that when I get my little “bug out”, but they don't. They're gone, and they're gone for God knows how long. Again, I knock on wood every day, saying thank God I've never had to go through it.

I think the Canadian people as a whole should be educated to know what these men and women do for a living, because they see them as a white elephant. They see that they're not effective, that they're costing them money. When it comes time for cutbacks, they say, “Well, take it off the military, they don't do anything. They get good wages.”

As soon as you go anywhere, they say, “Oh, you're military; you're making all kinds of money.” They have no idea. I think until either these guys get better equipment or people are educated, there won't be a change, because the public are the ones who decide. They elect the government officials and they're the ones deciding who gets the cut and who gets what.

That's all. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Corporal Claude Langlois.

Corporal Claude Langlois (Individual Presentation): Good morning. My point is about non-custodial parents within the forces. Five years ago, when I got separated, I was entitled to leave, to a travel allowance to visit my daughter once a year. Now that I'm remarried, I'm not entitled to it any more. What that tells me, from the government, is that now that I'm remarried, my child is not as important any more.

• 1105

I'd like to see something done to bring back at least LTA. My daughter is all the way in Nova Scotia. I get to see her twice a year. That costs me in excess of $2,500 every year. I think that as the military moved me here to Ontario from Nova Scotia, they should help me pay for the cost of that travel to see my child twice a year.

That's all I have.

The Chairman: Thank you. Good point.

Lieutenant Brad Brodhagen.

Lieutenant (Naval) Brad Brodhagen (Individual Presentation): Good morning. Before I go ahead and make the points I'd like to make, it appears to me that there seems to be some confusion on the committee when it comes to the career managers. You were wondering who is in charge of them, etc.

The main problem, I think, that the people here are trying to express is that the family is not well looked at when it comes to the set of priority listings the career managers have, unfortunately.

As it stands, I believe there are approximately 22 categories that career managers look at when they post people, and the family rates at about number 19 of those 22. That is, I think, one of the reasons why you're hearing all the problems this morning related to the family.

That list is set apparently by ADM(Per), and apparently that list is set by armed forces counsel. Maybe that will give you some idea as to how to pursue some information on that.

The points I wanted to make this morning are more or less again related to pay. The first one I'd like to mention is the injustice that was done with the freezing of the pay incentives. As far as I'm concerned, I submit to this committee that it was clearly discriminatory, unfair, and totally contrary to the pay guide I hold in my hand. This is the pay guide that was put in front of me when I signed the dotted line to join the forces.

I questioned the legality of this actually being able to take place, and I talked to the AJAG. At that time I was told it could be passed by the fact that it had received the Queen's assention and was pushed through Parliament. When I asked about discrimination—whether or not this was discriminatory—I was told that no, it was not, because more or less it did not meet a recognized definition of discrimination such as race, sex, religion, etc.

If it wasn't discrimination, why is it that only the people who were low in their incentive categories were penalized and a great number of people were not affected at all? If you're going to institute something like a pay cut, it should be universal. Nailing one group of people, as far as I'm concerned, is not fair at all.

I personally had to respond to and track grievances on this issue, where they were supported all the way to the CDS's office. However, I believe they were not supported at the CDS level due to the pressure from Treasury Board. Thus, I personally believe the answers received so far have been nothing basically short of hogwash.

I could almost understand this—and I say “almost”—if we had been returned to the incentive levels we should have reached by the end of the pay freeze. As it stands now, those of us who were affected at the beginning of our pay incentives, such as myself, starting at the captain's rank—the overall impact on me is right now I am being paid $300 less a month than what I should be. When I look at the long term, it's $30,000 over the 10-year period before the incentive, and that's assuming no promotion. Then again, that's not that uncommon an assumption today, because more or less a lot of people are taking FRP, and moving upwards has become very limited. So I submit to you that's a $30,000 loss coming out of my pocket, and that doesn't even take into account incentives at all ranks.

I wish someone would finally take care of this matter and resolve it, because as far as I'm concerned, there are a lot of people who are disgruntled over it, and it has never been resolved properly.

The second thing I wanted to mention was in regard to the pay services that were mentioned again with the junior ranks. In fact one of the things I was going to comment on this morning was again possibly talking about a tax-free payment to military members. One thing that hasn't been mentioned as regards this option so far is the possibility of at least looking at the basic tax exemption for military members. If we can't get it tax-free, how about maybe just increasing the tax exemption and putting more money into especially the young corporals' and privates' pockets?

The last point I wanted to make is the fact that Treasury Board acknowledged a pay shortfall to members of the Canadian Forces well over two years ago. Their solution to resolve this issue was to introduce periodic pay raises over a multi-year period to correct the inequity. Well, this is not the solution. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that by the time the shortfall has been corrected, we'll again be behind by about another three years.

• 1110

It was stated at that time that the shortfall of the NCMs was 6.7% and for the officers 14.7%. I don't know how they came up with these numbers, but these are numbers they came up with. This means that the NCMs are still short by 1.2% and the officers by 8.8%, after two years.

Of course the question you have to ask now is how much are we short now, and could we maybe receive it now, where it still might make a difference to our take-home pay? It could have the potential to be the first actual pay increase that hasn't immediately been followed by MQ cost increases, or increases in unemployment insurance premiums or the Canada Pension Plan.

That's all I had to submit. Thank you.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Captain Steve Graham.

Captain Steve Graham (Individual Presentation): Good morning, Mr. Chairman and committee members. My name is Captain Steve Graham, and I'd like to speak to you this morning about pharmacy services in the Canadian Forces.

I am a former pharmacist intern at the base hospital, and I sit on the board of directors for the Canadian pharmacists' association. I was posted to Petawawa in July 1997 as a new pharmacy graduate and pharmacist intern.

During my internship, due to the fact that the other two pharmacists I worked with were loaded on courses, I was ordered to work in the pharmacy for one week without a licensed pharmacist present. This is in direct violation of the regulations governing pharmacy interns in the province of Ontario, where I'm registered. These regulations state, and I quote, “A pharmacist must be physically present in the pharmacy and available for consultation”. When I informed the base surgeon of this fact, she put the order in writing, which I subsequently gave to the Ontario College of Pharmacists.

A voice: Right on.

Capt Steve Graham: The college informed me that I was not to engage in this activity, as it contravened the regulations governing interns. This caused the base surgeon to reconsider, and a replacement pharmacist was obtained from another unit on the base.

When I objected to the order, I was questioned by other pharmacists as to what was wrong. The impression was that I was almost a pharmacist and that the military would cover me if anything went wrong.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Capt Steve Graham: I was also told that this was not a practice that was isolated to me, and that other pharmacists on this base were required to do the same thing during their internship. As I see it, it is fine to be covered by DND if something goes wrong, but the problem is that if something goes wrong or did go wrong, someone could die.

There's not a province in Canada that would allow this practice to continue in a licensed pharmacy.

I also have a draft copy of the delegated medical act framework that allows for the manning of a pharmacy by nursing officers for up to five days in the absence of the pharmacist. This document also outlines conditions under which medics can prescribe certain prescription medications. It states that medics can write a prescription, and when a pharmacist receives a prescription written by a medic, they're supposed to be extra careful to ensure that the cognitive services are provided so that medication errors do not occur.

It also says that while the nursing officer is filling in for the pharmacist, the responsibility for cognitive services is shifted to the medical officer who wrote the prescription.

My question is, what happens when a medic writes the prescription and a nursing officer fills it? No one is responsible for the cognitive services that are added by the pharmacists. Medics write prescriptions and nurses fill them. The medical officer, of course, is ultimately responsible, but this is bad medicine.

I'd also like to add that this does not apply just in the field or in remote locations. It applies in major centres in Canada, such as Ottawa, Edmonton, Halifax or Victoria.

• 1115

As I said, the standards of practice for a military pharmacy are not commensurate with that of our civilian counterparts. I also submit that if a civilian pharmacy left their students and interns alone without the direct supervision of a licensed pharmacist, they would not be in practice very long.

The bottom line is that our patients' health is being put at risk.

Thank you for your attention.

The Chairman: Mr. Benoit, do you have a question?

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes, Captain, just for clarification, are you a pharmacist?

Capt Steve Graham: No, I'm a pharmacy intern. I haven't finished my licensing.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay, but you will be a pharmacist when you're through.

Capt Steve Graham: Not in the military, sir.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Mr. Leon Benoit: Could you just explain what you mean by that?

Capt Steve Graham: When it became obvious to me that they didn't have my professional well-being in mind when they were doing this, I asked to cease training in the military pharmacy training plan in which I was enrolled. Subsequently, I've been posted against my wishes to the medical equipment depot.

Mr. Leon Benoit: If you quit the army, would you be a pharmacist if you interned?

Capt Steve Graham: I could finish my internship and be licensed in approximately another half a year.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So you don't have the full training of a pharmacist?

Capt Steve Graham: No, sir, definitely not.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay, thank you.

The Chairman: Captain, could we have a copy of your presentation?

Capt Steve Graham: Yes, sir, I've got this. Plus I also have some supporting documentation that I referred to.

The Chairman: Maybe you could leave it with one of the clerks. Thank you.

Master Corporal Gaetan St-Amand.

[Translation]

Master Corporal Gaetan St-Amand (Individual Presentation): I wish to thank the members of the committee for giving me the opportunity to address them. I would like to talk about human rights and discrimination in the workplace. Members of the Armed Forces, both men and women, have rights and there should not be any discrimination on grounds of gender.

Men are asked to have short hair, while women can wear their hair any way they wish. If we don't comply with the regulations, we are fined, reprimanded, given extra duties and so on. I see this as a form of discrimination pure and simple. In the Canadian Armed Forces, however, the regulations clearly indicate that no form of discrimination, on the grounds of gender, religion or whatever, should be tolerated.

Can your committee explain to me why this is so, or refer the question to someone who would be prepared to do so? Thank you very much.

The Chairman: It would be rather difficult for us to give you an answer this morning. Rest assured, however, that we will take note of your question and try to follow up on it.

MCpl Gaetan St-Amand: But you agree that this a form of discrimination?

The Chairman: I don't wish to say. I'm not a lawyer and I don't claim to be. You've raised a question that deserves further study.

MCpl Gaetan St-Amand: Thank you very much.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

• 1120

[English]

Corporal Jacques Campbell.

Corporal Jacques Campbell (Individual Presentation): Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I polled my section before I came here so these are not all my questions. There are a few of mine.

We were just talking about leadership a while ago and how the officers are way over there and the NCMs are way down there. Why is the door not open wider for NCMs to become officers? A lot more college students are taken, and they go to university and are educated, compared to the corporals and the master corporals who are doing a fine and dandy job. They've proven that they are in the services and they've proven their responsibility and commitment. And some leadership skills are already proven too. So why is that door not open wider for them? That's my first point.

With respect to field pay, while we were on flood relief, not just myself but a lot of single people, a lot of single mothers, single fathers, and those like me—my wife is military—we were all sent there. Field pay does not even take care of pet care for a single person.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Cpl Jacques Campbell: I have three children. Do you know how much it costs for three children for 24-hour day care? Not even knowing if they're doing their homework, because the day care centres are pretty well full.... That's one of my points. Eight dollars a day after taxes does not pay for too much.

Next, how many people here have 15 years of service or more and are master corporals and below? All these people haven't had a pay raise for about seven years, I would say. Seven years ago they were not as good as they are now; they are much better at their jobs than they were before. You can give them anything and they can do it. But there is no incentive. “Why should I work more?” No incentive. And they tell us, “It's for promotion.”

Voices: Oh, oh!

Cpl Jacques Campbell: There are some 200-odd corporals in my trade. This year there were zero promotions. Last year there were nine. So, basically, whoever gets promoted is working really well or they don't see daylight too often.

Anyway, those are my points, sir, and I thank you for bringing this up.

We just did some quick addition on how much day care costs. It's close to $40 a day—am I right?—for 24-hour day care for one child.

Voices: Yes!

Cpl Jacques Campbell: I have three.

And I was working right beside somebody who was making $85 an hour with overtime. I was making $8 a day.

Thank you, sir.

The Chairman: Anne Harlow.

Ms. Anne Harlow (Individual presentation): Good morning. I was here last night when one of you asked a question about dress not being allowed in town. The soldier told you there are Canadians who do not recognize a Canadian solider when they see one.

I was born in Holland well after the war. It's pretty pathetic that a soldier has to travel across an ocean, 5,000 miles, and be recognized in a country that's not his own country, that he didn't fight for, but which his father or grandfather might have. And he is recognized there. You ask Dutch kids; the grandfather at the end of an Nijmegen parade will say, “Give the flowers to that guy. That's a Canadian soldier. He's the one who liberated Holland.”

• 1125

My husband is in Bosnia at the moment. He's probably going to get a lousy PER because his wife opened her mouth: “Handle her!”

I would like $1,300 back from Mr. Vanier. He screwed me out of $1,300 on the last European tour. We had to take the flights that were offered by the tour company that Mr. Vanier got kickbacks from. It cost me $1,300 more.

If I had done it myself, which my husband was told we couldn't, that the military was doing it all for us—thank you very much; it cost me $1,300 more—I could have flown KLM from Ottawa to Amsterdam and flown back Amsterdam to Ottawa. I was driven to Montreal and I flew to Amsterdam. I came back from Amsterdam to Ottawa, and somebody had forgotten to tell the driver that I was landing in Ottawa, not in Montreal. He was waiting for me in Montreal, not in Ottawa. I could have driven myself, but then I could have had to pay for my car to be stuck in Ottawa. That's very expensive.

So maybe somebody can ask Mr. Vanier for my money back.

The next thing is, we've been told we've gotten a pay increase. Thank you. When? Where? We had an illegal pay freeze. If you cannot strike in this country, you're supposed to be able to get compensation for that. If you cannot raise your voice, you're supposed to get protection for that. If you work for the government, your pay is supposed to be index-linked. We haven't had a pay raise for six years. I'll bet you the index linkage was more than 3.2%.

• 1130

Maybe we can sack a couple of generals. We have too many of them. The forces are decreasing. They don't need ten generals to direct twenty soldiers; we need one general. Maybe you can make some recommendations. Maybe somebody will take voluntary retirement.

I also heard on the radio that there have been tax cuts in Ontario. Maybe you can explain that to me. I didn't see any. I'm paying more income tax than I did last year. Granted, I worked more hours, so I made more money and paid more taxes, didn't I? Yes. I'm getting less back.

Why can't we leave Ontario or leave the military? If you don't like it, get out. Go back to Holland if you don't like it here. I'm keeping my Dutch passport just in case something happens.

I'm keeping my options open, which means, of course, I cannot vote in this country. I vote in Holland. I'm a Dutch citizen, so I'm voting in Holland. I cannot vote in this country so I have no influence here. I cannot tell you what to do except in this moment right here and right now.

I cannot leave Ontario because I have a thirteen-year-old and a six-year-old. I have to stay in this province, which has the lowest educational rate. It's the lowest rate. This is where your capital is, and it has the lowest education rate. I cannot get out of this province because my kid has to finish high school, and otherwise, he's going to be screwed for life. I'm not going to make that decision for him.

You integrated us with the community. Great. Fantastic. Civilians are using our ice. Mr. Clouthier is there. My son is playing hockey. His son is playing hockey. We meet each other. We talk to each other. Great. Fantastic. Except, of course, our kids suffer.

When we get posted from Calgary to Ontario, the kid is great. For a year or so, he can sit back and relax in school because it's all a repeat. If you go from Ontario to Halifax, Calgary, or somewhere else, your kid is screwed. He loses a year.

That's not fair. If you want to integrate us, integrate us properly, integrate the country. Make it a unity. Make it one standard. If you have a country, you have one standard. At least, that's the way it works in most countries.

We heard about the PMQs. I lived in Germany for ten years before I came over to Canada. I met my husband seven years before we came over to Canada. For seven years, I listened to a lot of the wives complaining about the PMQs in Germany. They were pretty atrocious.

Remember the towers in Lahr? The architect won an award. Last year, they were condemned because the walls were separating. If you went down by the elevator, you could see a gap of about a foot on the outside. This was the exterior wall. That's what they were living in.

We came over here and found the PMQs a lot better in Canada. Everything is better in Canada. I took one look and told my husband to turn around and go to the bank. I was not going to live in a clapboard shanty in the middle of a grass parking lot. Thank you very much, but I'm not going to do it. We'll get a loan and buy a house.

We have a very nice house. We paid $90,000 for it. The market was pretty good. We live on a good street. Actually, it's not a street any more; it's going to be a road. In real estate terms, it's more desirable to live on a cul-de-sac than on a street. It's more desirable to live on a street than on a road.

My real estate has dropped because of that. It's a small thing. However, the housing market, since 1993, has dropped by about 15%. That's a big drop.

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In a year's time, according to my municipal taxes, my house is now worth $10,000 more—in a year. I didn't do anything to it. As a matter of fact, I have to replace my ceiling because I have some water coming in. My property has increased in value only on paper, so I pay more taxes for it. That's okay; the taxes I'm paying are going to pay for that atrocious little red thing they put on top of the town hall here because now we're the town of Petawawa so we have to have a tower. Maybe the military can use it as an obstacle course. I'm sure you can climb up on it and vault over it.

So maybe, Mr. Clouthier, you can look into that. Tear that thing down. It's not a tower. It's atrocious. Then maybe we can talk about taxes again. My house hasn't increased in value; it has decreased. My market value has dropped 15%.

If we are forced to move to take a posting, I lose my job and my seniority in my job. My kids lose out, because they go to a different educational system, which is going to screw them, let's face it. Plus, if I'm lucky enough to sell my house, there's no way on earth I'm going to be able to buy another one. I won't have the money. I'm going to take a loss.

That's all I have to say. Thanks.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Corporal Pete O'Neill.

Cpl Pete O'Neill (Individual Presentation: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the panel. My story is not so much of hardship as it is kind of bizarre. I was one of the people who took that leap of faith and got out of the military. I was out for about a year and a half, and I re-signed because I actually like the military way of life.

When I got out of the military, I got a $20,000 return of contributions. What I learned when I got out of the military was that if you work for a civilian company, there's a thing called vesting. That is when I pay into a pension plan and the company pays into the pension plan. After a couple of years, that money they invested in me becomes mine. CFSA, the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act, does not allow that. They have their own little set of rules, so no matter what, our big cash cow stays with the military. So I did not get my vested money that the military puts in.

As well, I did not get any interest on the money I contributed over all those years, whereas if I had put that money into my own fund, I would have made a hell of a lot more money than exactly what I broke in with—unless I invested in Bre-X.

So now I get back in the military and they tell me to pay back my contributions. They said, “Don't pay it back in a lump sum. Just pay back a little bit a month. You don't have to worry about it.” I said, “Well, you know what? I have nine years left. If I pay $200 a month, I can have it all paid by the time I get out.” The people at the pay office tell me “No, that's stupid. Don't do that. Give them $30 a month, and then you'll pay for 130 years and you'll die or whatever and you won't have to pay it all back.”

I thought, well, that's kind of silly. I felt kind of embarrassed about that, so I offered $50 a month. Good go! Last month, in the middle of the month, I didn't get a pay cheque. I said, oh God, what happened here? What happened was, you have to pay back your pension by the time you're 99 years of age—because they figure military guys will live until then. In reality, the minimum I had to pay was $90 a month. I went back and got it straightened out, and it worked out that I only owed them $400, or whatever. They're taking it out of this pay cheque.

I got no interest on the money I put into a fund where I should have got their part of the money as well, plus interest—that only makes sense—and I'm going to pay back $90 a month for 67 years, which adds up to about $76,000 for $20,000. So my question is, if I'm paying interest on money that I took from you, why the hell did I not get interest on money that I put in for all those years? Eleven years I paid in. Why am I not getting it?

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Secondly, I know housing has always been a big pain in the butt for everybody around here.

I've been married 10 years, so when I got back in it was eight years I'd been married. I have a wife, I have a daughter, and I have a dog. They tell me it's going to be two to three months before I can get a PMQ. So I'm living unaccompanied and I'm living free in the shack. Okay, my family is three hours away in Peterborough; maybe it's not such a bad go.

A week later I get a phone call from housing. They found a house for me. Actually it wasn't a house; it was an apartment, which ten years ago was used for single quarters. This is a 600-square-foot apartment. They say it's three bedrooms, but I could take two steps and I can go around the room, and I don't have very long legs.

So I said to them, “It's too small. I've been married a long time and I have a family. There's no way I can put my stuff in this place. I could stack it all in, but it would be like a warehouse and I wouldn't have room to live.” I was told by the civilian lady over at housing, “The military's not there to house your furniture; it's there to house your family. If you don't take it, too bad, you lose your imposed restrictions and you have to pay for your rations and quarters.”

So now I'm paying $300-plus to live and eat here, plus my house in Peterborough. To me this is okay. I don't accept the apartment; I'll wait for a house. So I ended up buying a house because I didn't want my family here.

The question I have is, why is a civilian lady in housing—there's nothing wrong with civilian ladies—dictating to a military person how and where they live if they're going to live on base? I know it comes up as what's available, but how can a person make a decision like that and say, “I'm sorry, but your stuff is not good enough to be here”? They want me to sell my furniture so I can bring my family. I have eight years of memories in the stuff I have. Why should I have to get rid of that? It didn't seem fair to me, but it seemed fair to her. She said, “I don't care. If you don't like it, too bad, you lose your money.” The housing here isn't that good anyway, so I didn't bring them.

Everybody has talked about pay. I look at the MPs sitting over there; they have armbands. I'm a medic. I was afraid to tell people that.

I have a friend who joined the civilian police force at the same time I went into the military. He's making over $50,000 as a city policeman. Peterborough's not exactly the most violent town in Canada. It's not really that bad. He rides a bicycle and gives parking tickets in the summer. I find that kind of funny. “Stop your car, damn it”, he'll say. So he's riding a bicycle. I look at him and he's making over $50,000 a year.

I'm just using the MPs as an example for equivalency. Everybody deserves to be making more for what we do. That's just a prime example of where, my God, if they could get a job outside, they'd be gone.

That's all I have to say about pay.

Thank you very much. Have a nice day.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Corporal, if you could come back to the microphone, I believe Mr. Hanger has a question.

Mr. Art Hanger: One thing that puzzled me is that you left the military and came back.

Cpl Pete O'Neill: Oh, yes.

Mr. Art Hanger: Why?

Cpl Pete O'Neill: I was working too hard outside.

No. I was putting in a lot of hours, and I actually really enjoy the military style of life. I have nothing to say about going to the field or going away. That's not a problem; that's not an issue with me.

I made a conscious decision to leave the military because I wanted to spend more time with my family, and I wanted to watch my daughter grow up. But the fact that I came back was my choice as well. I came back and they said to me, “You have two choices. You have Petawawa or Petawawa.” So I took Petawawa. What's the question about that then? I came back of my free will. I enjoy the military life.

Mr. Art Hanger: Fair enough. You answered my question.

The other one is on the pension. When you pulled your contributions out, you had no interest whatsoever; you were just given the principal.

Cpl Pete O'Neill: You were given exactly the amount of money you put into your pension fund. For me it was over 11 years, but I'm going to pay back for 67.

Mr. Art Hanger: You had paid into that for how many years?

Cpl Pete O'Neill: Eleven years—the entire time I'd been in the military at that time.

Mr. Art Hanger: Now you want to pick up the difference since you've been back—

Cpl Pete O'Neill: I pay it back.

Mr. Art Hanger: You're going to pay it back.

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Cpl Pete O'Neill: What I'm doing is paying back the money I took out. I have to pay that back for 20 years—depending on the rules now, I might have to do 25, but I think I can get away with 20 and skim—and at the end of that 20 years, I get my pension.

Mr. Art Hanger: At what interest rate, may I ask?

Cpl Pete O'Neill: I honestly don't know, but it sounds awful high.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Cpl Pete O'Neill: I didn't get a straight answer to that one, so I really have no idea.

Mr. Art Hanger: What would be the difference? You were given eleven of principal—

Cpl Pete O'Neill: I was given eleven years of my pension, which worked out to about $21,000. I rolled it over and then I bought a house. I used my money my way. The fact is that when I came back in, they said not to pay it back, just to take my time. What I found out is that I got screwed; I got bad advice.

That's the thing about the pay office. It was brought up earlier. If it's their mistake.... It's a “your mistake, my fault” kind of thing.

I'm a corporal. I have a family and a house. Granted, it's my choice that they live in Peterborough. I'm thinking about bringing them up here this year. But I pay a mortgage down there and I have to pay for my rations and quarters here. You have to have some sort of life, you know, which apparently I don't. But they can say to me, “All right, you know what? We just found out there's a mistake here. You owe us a thousand dollars, so you don't get paid.” You just can't do that to the average guy at my level.

If you were to say to some general, “Okay, you're losing a thousand dollars off your pay cheque”, that really doesn't affect him too much. A thousand dollars may not affect everybody, but a thousand dollars is a lot of money to me. It's a heck of a lot of money. And to lose it in one shot? I didn't even get an explanation on my pay cheque. My pay guy just said, “No pay,” so I had no money when I went to the bank. You can't do that to me, because I have to live.

Mr. Art Hanger: Thanks, Corporal.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

We now go to the last witness, Nancy Adams.

Ms. Nancy Adams (Individual Presentation): Members of the committee, first of all, I'd like to say that I wasn't going to mention this before, but when the air force sergeant spoke, I decided to.

My husband and I had a similar experience back in 1991, when we also lost a son. Back then, we received no help from the military, although after calling one Protestant chaplain, he did try to help. However, nothing was available. We had to drive our infant son in his small casket from the airport in Halifax to the funeral home in New Glasgow because we didn't have the money to pay for a hearse and the military wouldn't send a car. On top of that, my husband was asked to go back to work after one week, but he said no. I will say that I know things are now slowly getting better in this regard. I know PEMICO does help families a lot now.

Anyway, back to my original statement. I was at the meeting last evening. After listening to all the speakers, I knew I had to talk about the many topics that were raised that relate directly to my family.

My father was in the military for 31 years. He used to, and still does, quote CFAOs and QR and Os from memory. I feel he was proud to be in the military.

My husband has been in the military for 21 years. He has done tours in Cyprus, Somalia, and Bosnia. He's been posted to Petawawa, Comox, Germany, and Oromocto. He is what I like to call “the old new army”. When he signed on the dotted line, the new 20-40 plan had only started one year earlier. Back then, new young recruits signed their name wherever they were told to sign, being too naive or afraid to ask questions, and in no way thinking what it might mean for them in twenty years. This brings me to my family's present-day situation.

My husband is a sergeant in the armoured corps. He has served with the 8th Canadian Hussars and the Royal Canadian Dragoons. In his nineteenth year of service my husband was able to sign a contract that extended his career for another year after his twenty years were up. After that time, we did not know what would happen to his career, because Ottawa was still trying to decide what to do with all these men who were starting to be affected by the 20-40 plan. My husband's extension is completed this summer, but at the beginning of this year we were told that he was being offered a CE—a continued engagement—for three more years. It is not known what happens after that.

This is just part of our story. My husband was posted to Meaford, Ontario, last summer. We are ready to buy a house, but after seeing what was left on the market, we decided that if my husband had only one year left in the military, it was not worth the money we would be spending for us to get strapped with a house that perhaps we would not be able to sell. Meaford is not where we want to retire.

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Because Meaford does not have any PMQs...the closest are in Gordon, which is an hour to an hour and a half way. We decided to leave our family in Petawawa, where the kids are already settled.

My family is living here on an IR, an imposed restriction. This entitles my husband to room and board in one of the modulars in Meaford and $4 per day, which does not cover the gas money and the $20 cable bill, which at the present time is mandatory.

Anyway, we could only apply for one year IR, because that was all the time my husband had left in the forces. This summer we are applying for another IR, and until then we will go through the entire process again of not knowing whether or not we are moving.

At the present time my husband comes home every other weekend, for holidays, and when he has to use up his leave.

In Meaford my husband is on a Monday-to-Friday schedule, and he is usually able to find a ride to Petawawa. I need our one vehicle to get around Petawawa and Pembroke.

My husband is an instructor in the Armoured Battle School for the armour students, but because of either medical reasons or the fact that one too many sergeants was posted there last summer, he has now had, effective 22 April, an inter-base posting to range control, four days on, four days off, four nights on, four nights off, and so on.

Because of this, if my three children were ever to see their father again, we'd need a second vehicle, which we just bought yesterday. I now say we are driving our house. Besides that, we are not entitled to buy a house in Petawawa while my husband is posted to Meaford or we will lose the separation pay and our IR status.

Last evening the topic of medical treatment was addressed. While my husband was posted here in Petawawa, he hurt his shoulder during morning PT. He knew something wasn't right, but when he went to sick parade, he was told it was nothing. He also complained of having stomach problems, heartburn, etc., but he was told that too was nothing and to just take Diovol.

Since his posting to Meaford eight months ago, my husband has had surgery on his shoulder for a torn flange and he is being scheduled for major surgery on a hiatus hernia, which was only discovered because I told my husband to ask the doctor, who is hired part-time by the military in Meaford, to check this out. I was a working registered nurse until 1989. If left untreated, these hernias can lead to cancer.

My husband was told he was posted to range control because of his medical condition, but as an instructor in Meaford, his job performance was in no way affected by these conditions, which are being rectified.

It basically seems that Meaford and some other remote places are bases for different units and people who the military would like to put out to pasture, and it has been somewhat effective.

I could comment on other topics such as living in PMQs, which I've done most of my life, or question why only warrant officers and above are offered IPSs, indefinite periods of service in the armoury corp, but I'm not going to.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that my husband used to be proud to be in the Canadian Forces, but to me it now seems he has become very disheartened. There is a lot of stress placed on military members and their families. It does not seem as though experience counts for anything. My husband has had weapons aimed at him in Cyprus, rocks thrown at and hitting him in Somalia, and mortar rounds falling around him in Bosnia, but he says this is part of his job.

Yes, we do realize that jobs are not guaranteed on Civilian Street, and right now we are glad he has a job. It would be nice, though, if after all these years of service to Canada, a soldier would not be forgotten.

Thank you.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Nancy.

Ladies and gentlemen, this brings to an end our meeting here in Petawawa. I'd just like to thank each and every one of you for coming up and making presentations. Your comments are much appreciated. I know it's going to help us a lot when we write our report.

On behalf of all the committee members, I would just like to thank Colonels Mitchell and Kinchuk for all the work they have done to make our stay here most enjoyable.

Again, I thank you very much. The meeting is adjourned.