LANG Committee Meeting

    Good morning everyone.

    Welcome to the Standing Committee on Official Languages. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), a study of immigration as a development tool in official language in official language minority communities, we have many witnesses this morning.

    This morning, we have a series of witnesses that I would describe as impressive.

    First of all, we will be hearing from representatives of the Metropolis Project, including the Executive Head, Mr. Howard Duncan.

    Welcome to our committee, Mr. Duncan.

    With him is Ms. Julie Boyer, Deputy Executive Head of the Metropolis Project.

    Welcome to the committee.

    We also have with us the Executive Director of the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, or FANE, Mr. Jean Léger.

    Welcome.

    He is accompanied by Mr. Donald Kenny, as an individual, who is Director of the Halifax campus of the Université Saint-Anne.

    Welcome, Mr. Kenny.

    Also, from the Société de l'Acadie du Nouveau-Brunswick, we welcome the President, Mr. Jean-Marie Nadeau. I am almost tempted to say that he is a regular at this committee. This morning, he is with the Coordinator of Francophone Immigration, Ms. Anne-Lise Blin.

    Welcome one and all.

    Without any further ado,

I would invite Mr. Duncan and Madame Boyer to begin with an opening statement.

    Thank you very much.

    I would like to thank the chair for the kind invitation to the Metropolis Project to appear before the standing committee. It is a pleasure for Julie Boyer and me to be here.

    In our opening remarks, I will begin with a general description of the Metropolis Project. Julie will close with a description of our activities on official language minority communities in Canada.

    Metropolis is a Canada-led international network of academic researchers, government officials, and NGOs who are all dedicated to the enhancement of policy on migration and diversity through the application of empirical scientific research. In Canada, Metropolis supports five university-based research centres headquartered in Halifax, Montreal, Toronto, Edmonton, and Vancouver, which receive funding from 13 government departments to carry out a program of policy research in six areas of priority that were decided by the federal funders.

     These six are: economic and labour market integration; housing and neighbourhoods; citizenship and social, cultural, and civic integration; policing, justice, and security; families, children, and youth; and welcoming communities, within which Metropolis researchers examine official language minority language communities in Canada.

     Twenty Canadian universities are involved as formal partners in the centres. Researchers from most other Canadian universities are less formally involved.

    Each research centre receives approximately $325,000 per year for infrastructure support and research and each leverages an additional roughly $1 million per year for research from other sources. The Metropolis secretariat is responsible for overall stewardship, promotion and network development, and knowledge transfer.

     I would like to emphasize that the secretariat neither conducts research of its own nor develops policy. Through our knowledge transfer work, we inform policy-making within the federal partnership, but we do not have a policy responsibility and therefore do not speak for the government on its policies or its programs, despite the fact that we at the secretariat are all employees of Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

     Funding for Metropolis has been provided since 1996 in five-year increments. Current funding expires on March 31, 2012.

    The International Metropolis Project is an unfunded activity that now encompasses a policy research network from roughly 40 countries in North America, Europe, Asia, and Australasia, with a small number of countries in Africa and Latin America. The international project is managed by the Ottawa secretariat, with some assistance from a branch office at the University of Amsterdam.

    The most public work of the secretariat is to publicize research through our website and our paper publications and to organize conferences and seminars in Canada and abroad. Our annual national and international conferences each attract about 1,000 people and are now considered to be the largest and most important regular immigration and diversity conferences in the world.

     Through these events, we try to lead our network's research and policy thinking towards emerging trends and the societal changes that most need attending to by governments. The degree of attention that is now paid to immigration and diversity has risen as a result of Metropolis' lead. This includes work on official language minority communities, which were little researched until Metropolis began developing a network and organizing discussions on the topic, as Julie Boyer will describe to you momentarily.

    Overall, it is our ambition to play a strong and positive role in supporting evidence-based decision-making by government agencies in Canada and abroad.

    I'll now, if I may, turn the microphone over to my colleague, Julie Boyer.

    Thank you very much, Howard.

    It was in 2007, in Toronto, after the Strategic Plan had been published, that the Metropolis Project first organized a session on Francophone immigration to minority communities. The purposes of that event were to take stock of the research being done and to allow federal government representatives to articulate their research needs directly to researchers and community partners. Only some 40 persons attended; fewer than half of them were researchers studying these issues. From that session, we learned that economic integration is the first step toward retaining French-speaking immigrants but that, outside Quebec, people need to speak English if they want to find work. As a result, French-language settlement organizations are called on not only to provide assistance with English-language economic integration, but also to develop Francophone networks.

    The success of the first pre-conference session and the release of the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality encouraged us to plan a second pre-conference session in 2008 in Moncton. The purpose of that event was to continue the discussion about the challenges of social integration by inviting a number of community organizations and immigrants to share their on-the-ground experiences. The main issues raised had to do with Francophone identity in Canada and immigrants' place within that identity, and with awareness-raising to be done in host communities.

    The third pre-conference session, held in 2009 in Calgary, attracted over 100 participants, one third of whom were researchers. Participants engaged at length in discussions of barriers to integration. The concept emerged of dual or even triple minority status: Francophone immigrants in a majority Anglophone environment, members of a visible minority and, in many cases, refugees having had traumatic experiences prior to the immigration process.

    Researchers and community stakeholders agree that in Francophone minority communities, whether rural or urban, the school is identified as an agent of community liaison that is vital in integrating children and parents as well. Some schools go so far as to offer courses for parents in English as a second language, in addition to Francization courses, to ensure that the family stays in the French-speaking community.

    The fourth pre-conference session was held in 2010, recently, in Montreal, with over 180 persons in attendance. Participants comprised roughly equal numbers of researchers, community representatives and federal, provincial and territorial decision-makers. We invited Citizenship and Immigration Canada, the Department of Canadian Heritage, the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie, and the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada to report not only on progress made, but also on persistent challenges in addressing these issues. For example, a shared definition of “Francophone community”, building a sense of belonging to the Canadian Francophonie as a whole, and not just to a particular French-speaking community, greater clarity about municipalities' role, and stronger partnerships with the private sector were areas that revealed both challenges and concrete objectives for work to be done.

    On that occasion, we developed the best practices manual. This manual, which highlights programs and projects that promote Francophone immigration to minority communities, was designed as a tool for host communities to use, particularly in their efforts to retain newcomers. As well, the current research compendium, which contains 16 recent research capsules, was designed as a tool to provide decision-makers with information on emerging issues in this regard. These two publications have already been sent to members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. Today, we have brought for your attention an issue of the journal entitled Canadian Issues on Immigration and Diversity in Francophone Minority Communities. This issue was produced in 2008 by the Metropolis Project in cooperation with the Association for Canadian Studies. We would also be pleased to share with you a list of researchers in the Metropolis network who are studying these issues, their field of expertise and their contact information, if you wish to invite them to appear before you.

    In conclusion, since the Metropolis Project has created a space for in-depth discussions among researchers, decision-makers and community representatives, we have seen increased interest in issues of Francophone immigration to minority communities. Now, more researchers are taking an interest in these issues and devoting research projects to them. We hope that our contribution to this research will be of use to governments and communities in their efforts to promote official language immigration to minority communities. We shall continue to explore these issues on March 23, 2011, in Vancouver, and we hope to be able to follow up on your recommendations.

    Thank you very much, Ms. Boyer.

    We will move now to Mr. Léger.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I am the Director of the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse. I am accompanied by Donald Kenny, Director of the Halifax campus of the Université Sainte-Anne. We would like to thank you for this opportunity to present our views on Francophone immigration.

    For several years, the population of minority Francophone communities, especially in our province, has been declining. This population decline is the result of several factors: a lower birthrate, an aging population, the rural exodus, among others. Faced with this issue, the community is focussing on immigration as one of the solutions.

    The primary mission of the FANE is to neutralize the assimilation of Francophones in the province and enrich this country's two official languages. Its main goals are: to promote the shared interests of the Francophone population of Nova Scotia; to develop a dialogue between Francophone associations, institutions, agencies and organizations in Nova Scotia; to act as both an interest group and a community development organization; to act as the official spokesperson for the Francophone population of Nova Scotia; and, to ensure the linguistic, cultural, economic, social and political survival, as well as the development, of the Acadian people in Nova Scotia.

    From its beginnings, the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse has contributed to the emergence and development of a number of files, relating to educational, economic, political, and sociocultural issues, as well as to youth, women, seniors, literacy, immigration and communications. The FANE also pressured the provincial government to move forward on adopting the French Services Act in 2004, which is now in effect.

    Since 2006, and thanks to financial support from Citizenship and Immigration Canada, or CIC, and from the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration, the FANE has been providing settlement services to Francophone immigrants through its Francophone immigration program. We now serve approximately 200 Francophone immigrants in Nova Scotia. The goals of the FANE's Francophone immigration project are as follows: to increase the number of newcomers settling in Nova Scotia and retain those who are already here; to foster the integration of newcomers to the province, specifically into the Acadian and Francophone community; and to expand the capacity of the Acadian and Francophone communities in Nova Scotia to receive and integrate newcomers. We have also participated a number of times in international recruitment activities, such as Destination Canada, in cooperation with the province. We are also contributing to the province's repopulation strategy by recommending potential economic Francophone immigrants under the Nova Scotia Nominee Program.

    The Acadian and Francophone community in our province was able to be part of the first provincial immigration strategy beginning in 2005. Since then, we have seen a slow but steady increase in Francophone immigration to Nova Scotia. Furthermore, the Acadian and Francophone community in Nova Scotia enjoys excellent relations with the Office of Immigration, which offers bilingual capacity and is investing $100,000 in the Francophone immigration project. With a view to advancing Francophone immigration in our province, the FANE decided six years ago to establish a provincial steering committee composed of the main community players, including the Université Sainte-Anne, and involving the participation of our main government partners, such as CIC and the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration. Our current activities are guided by a five-year action plan. Increasingly, Francophone community activists are taking an interest, and especially, getting involved in several different areas, including training, employability, health services for immigrants or services for immigrant women. We can also rely on our excellent relations with the Immigration Office and the Department of Citizenship and Immigration Canada, who sit on the committee as observers.

    At the regional level in the Atlantic provinces, the Société Nationale de l'Acadie has also developed a work plan with key stakeholders in the four Atlantic provinces in order to strengthen and bring sharper focus to our work in the area of promotion and advocacy, as well as dialogue and cooperation. We also sit on the CIC Steering Committee - Francophone Minority Communities, which is coordinated by the FCFA. However, despite these plans and a lot of enthusiasm, we are facing some very major challenges, particularly those related to rural immigration. Some communities are faring well, such as Baie Sainte-Marie or the Municipality of Clare, in Southwestern Nova Scotia, thanks to the presence of the Université Sainte-Anne, among other factors.

    However, the Halifax region is a natural magnet for immigrants in general, and a proportion of them are Francophone. Resources for providing equivalent services in French are often unavailable when they arrive. In spite of what the province told you recently at these hearings, to the effect that ISIS—Immigrant Settlement and Integration Services—was providing services in French and was a small organization, you should know that, in actual fact, ISIS offers very few services in French—practically none. Its website is in English only and is huge, compared to available resources in the Francophone community.

    As you can understand, the community would like to provide these services, but it is unable to do so, for lack of means. The governments involved often argue that we cannot receive funding because we don't have the required number of immigrants. Obviously we don't have the required numbers, since no services are available. It's a vicious cycle.

    It was the same situation when we asked for our own Francophone schools; again we had to justify the numbers. It is difficult to get away from that vicious cycle. As you may recall, Supreme Court rulings were needed in order for Francophones to secure their own schools.

    Our fear is that this is working against the community. We have heard comments from immigrants in Nova Scotia to the effect that Francophones have nothing to offer and wondering why they would turn to us. Compared to an institution like ISIS, the community provides few services.

    We are suggesting that the federal government provide more financial support to the provinces for Francophone immigration. We recognize that each of the provinces has official languages clauses, but the fact is they have very little or no funding available—as is the case in our own province—to support Francophone immigration.

    We commend the federal government on its recent initiative in the province of New Brunswick and its decision to invest $10 million via the Roadmap. It could be great if the federal government would also find some money for our province, so as to help the community move forward with respect to Francophone immigration, and particularly the intake and recruitment of immigrants.

    At this point, we would like to undertake a recruitment campaign, but we don't have the necessary funding. So, we are forced to try and move forward with almost nothing—a small website and basically by word of mouth.

    We also have questions about CIC's bilingual capacity in Nova Scotia. Although there is one bilingual officer, the department as a whole provides very few services. We would also like CIC to play more of an interdepartmental role in that regard. Immigration is a societal project, but I believe more federal government departments should be getting involved. I will name just a few: Service Canada, Human Resources Development Canada, the Rural Secretariat or ACOA. In my opinion, CIC should be playing an interdepartmental role and working jointly with these departments to support Francophone immigration.

    As regards refugees, our clientele includes a large number of refugees, but again, we don't have any funding. Basically, all the money goes to ISIS. We have made requests to CIC, but CIC recently replied that all the money had been given to ISIS, that there was none left and that they would see about next year. It's a little frustrating.

    Halifax takes in some Francophone refugees, primarily from the Great Lakes region.

    A pilot project for Francophone refugees is also underway at this time in Manitoba. We would like to see that extended more quickly to the other provinces, and particularly Nova Scotia.

    In closing, we want to make it perfectly clear that the community wants to take full responsibility for the intake, integration and recruitment of Francophone immigrants in Nova Scotia, with adequate resources.

    Thank you, Mr. Léger.

    When you say the Great Lakes, I gather you are talking about the Great Lakes region of Africa, are you not?

    Yes.

    Fine, thank you.

    Mr. Kenny, please.

    Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the parliamentary committee. Thank you for your invitation to appear today to discuss such an important issue for the official language minority communities.

    I would just like to share two success stories with you about the labour market integration of Francophone immigrants in the greater Halifax area. These projects were carried out by the Halifax campus of the Université Sainte-Anne. Both were funded through the Canada—Nova Scotia Labour Market Agreement. The Nova Scotia Office of Immigration acted as manager of part of the immigrant-related funding under that agreement.

    At the end of my presentation, I will be making a number of recommendations that I believe are important in order for the campus and the community to participate fully in the harmonious integration of Francophone immigrants into the greater Halifax region.

    These two projects were made possible through the considerable support provided by the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse and staff from the Grand-Havre Community Board. I want to express my sincere thanks for the exceptional cooperation that occurred and I hope it will be possible in future to continue this unique partnership with Francophone immigrants.

    As I thought about my presentation today, I realized that we have accomplished a great deal in very little time. We have been working in this area for less than three years. I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that all of this was accomplished with one part-time employee and the support of the staff and facilities of the Université Saint-Anne. All the training workshop services were provided by casual employees or volunteers.

    Thus far, we have delivered two projects. They included training and work experience for Francophone immigrants. In particular, we presented workshops to facilitate labour market integration, training in communications and the use of computers, internships, and finally, paid workplace experience.

    The 2009 pilot project, which lasted 12 weeks and was funded by the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration, for a total of $38,000, allowed us to recruit, train and provide two-week internships to seven participants. The pilot project was intended to determine the feasibility of managing this type of project aimed at Francophone immigrants from our base on the campus, and to establish a basis for partnership with Francophone community partners. The aim of the project was to facilitate the transition to the provincial labour market. Participants had no work experience in Canada. All the participants, except for one, benefited from the training and internships. Of the seven participants, two secured employment following this work experience. Indeed, they are still in those jobs.

    As a result of several evaluations of the pilot project, we determined that the project was of inadequate duration and that the two-week internship should be changed in order to better reflect the realities of the provincial labour market. In addition, training in English as a second language appeared to be an essential requirement for most of the project participants.

    Upon completion of the pilot project, we submitted a second request for funding to the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration in the summer of 2009 to deliver a similar project that would last longer. That project began in October, 2009. The 25-week project included 10 weeks of workshops and 6 weeks of paid work. We completed the project in late March, 2010, with the allocated budget of $131,628. We achieved the two main outcomes set for the project, which were that immigrants secure relevant work experience or that this experience encourage them to continue their studies with a view with entering the labour market at a later date. Of the nine participants, five now have permanent jobs, three would like to go back to school in September, and one still does not have a job.

    We submitted a third request for funding to the Office of Immigration in February, 2010 for a 52-week project with a budget of $328,457. That amount will allow us to provide training and work experience throughout fiscal year 2010-2011. Three elements in particular distinguish it from previous proposals: the project is intended to last as much as 52 weeks, paid work experience will last between six and 16 weeks, and twenty weeks of training in English as a second language on campus is also included. We will be using the program funded by Citizenship and Immigration Canada though its Language Instruction for Newcomers to Canada program, or LINC. We are currently in discussions with the Nova Scotia Office of Immigration, and hope to sign an agreement soon.

    As a follow-up to this limited experience with Francophone immigrants, and as a means of pursuing the harmonious integration of these immigrants into our minority community, we are making the following recommendations.

    Authorities responsible for enforcing the Official Languages Act must continue to rigourously monitor the services provided to minority Francophone communities, including services that have been devolved to the provinces.

    Services aimed at integrating Francophone immigrants into our region, including services and training in English as a second language, must be offered on a priority basis by Francophone organizations. It is critical to involve the Francophone community, in order to facilitate the social, cultural and economic integration of these immigrants into our minority community.

    Appropriate and multi-year funding must be available. It must take into consideration our realities as official language minority communities as regards achievement of project outcomes.

    Integration services aimed at Francophone immigrants, including labour market integration services, must be available throughout the year.

    Thank you, and I am now available to take your questions.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Kenny. Before that, however, we are going to move to Northern Nova Scotia, with Mr. Nadeau.

    Mr. Nadeau, please.

    Good morning and thank you for inviting us to make a short presentation. I am going to set aside my written brief so that we can have a frank discussion. As I was “surfing” over what the Commissioner of Official Languages said last week, I thought to myself that it may be time here in Canada for official languages to cease being a burden and start being considered a fundamental value. I have to say I'm very proud of what the Commissioner said, because he is starting to speak the same language as the communities.

    We find ourselves constantly wondering why it is still suspect to aspire to achieve our full growth and development, and how that can still represent a threat to this country. That is the question we ask ourselves. We love this country, but sometimes we would like this country to like us more and like us better, and provide us with the necessary means. As things now stand, we are given enough to “keep our mouths shut”, but we are not given enough to reach the heights we are aiming for. And this is where Francophone immigration comes in. It has become kind of a trend, but it has to be more than that. It also has to translate into concrete facts.

    I would like to introduce Anne-Lise Blin, who is originally from France and was hired two or three weeks ago as the Provincial Francophone Immigration Coordinator. Of course, New Brunswick received $10 million in 2008, but we still don't know whether this is what Mr. Harper has given Bernard Lord to co-chair his election campaign or whether it is the result of brilliant negotiations with Mr. Harper on the part of the Graham government. But we really could not care less. What we do not care about, however, is the fact that it took two years for them to agree on how to invest it. The money was only released this year, through the federal government, its spokesperson and ACOA. Why ACOA is involved, I do not know. The provincial spokesperson on how the funds are to be used is the New Brunswick Population Growth Secretariat.

    The most important thing is for this to be delivered, except that this agreement will end in 2013 and, given the problems involved in negotiations, we would like to see them begin now to negotiate renewal of the agreement in 2013. That way, perhaps there won't be an interruption in our activities in 2013 when we are already hard at work.

    I myself married an immigrant, a woman from France, to whom I was married for 38 years; unfortunately, she died on March 8. I believe she was a role model when it comes to integration. In the case of Anne-Lise, who is also a French immigrant, her parents had been invited to emigrate to Canada. However, it is the daughter that actually came, and she herself will be giving birth in July to a little Acadian boy or girl.

    In fact, the best way for us, Acadians from New Brunswick, to be Canadian is to be fully Acadian; that is our original way of enriching the country. That is why we also are anxious to receive and integrate as many immigrants as possible. Unfortunately, here as elsewhere, we are no longer producing enough babies and thus we need to take in Francophone immigrants—Francophones yes, but not only Francophones. I believe there are some success stories in Quebec where Chileans, Colombians and Latin Americans are seen to be the immigrants that are most easily integrated into Francophone communities. That is why we are trying to recruit immigrants from the Latino community in New Brunswick. I know there is a young Colombian working at the Edmundston campus of the Université of Moncton. He is very well integrated in the community. I believe his name is Pablo, or something similar.

    Even our African friends are coming to us. We like them so much that we no longer call them “Africans”; now we call them “Africadians”. That expression is a reflection of integration. Let's stop talking and start acting. That will also help to improve Canada's image. There has to be more celebration and better recognition of the place of Francophones in Canada.

    That is what concerns me most. It seems to me that if it is truly a fundamental part of our Canadian identity, we're going to have to work a little harder to help it grow. I will actually be attending a work session that Mauril Bélanger is organizing next Monday on behalf of the Liberal Party, as I understand it. We are prepared to meet with the Conservative Party, the NDP and even the Rhinoceros Party, if need be, to make people understand that Acadians want to contribute to this country. The days when Acadians were content to ask for things are over now. We have become contributors.

    We have now achieved a level of education which has created a desire—and the necessary confidence—to bring more and more immigrants into our communities. Indeed, as is the case elsewhere in Canada—and I presume that you have heard this often enough since you've been holding hearings—there is the issue of foreign credential recognition. What is this nonsense? At least Quebec has signed an agreement with France for physicians, so that a French physician can now emigrate to that province and begin to practice medicine almost the day after he arrives. We now have a school of medicine in New Brunswick, where doctors are trained through the University of Sherbrooke, so why could we not be more proactive in situations like that?

    There is a shortage of 200 truckers in New Brunswick, and I can't believe that in France… There are 100,000 unemployed North Africans in Belgium, and I can't believe that we couldn't find 200 truck drivers among them. Sometimes I wonder how it is that some people are rejected by the system. We have certain needs, and it seems to me that there are enough people out there to make a world and a country like Canada. That's why we want to be more proactive. The Acadian community in New Brunswick is somewhat allergic to the concept of a minority. We are not a minority; we are equal. Since the Act was passed in 1982, the two communities have been equal. Indeed, we want to be treated as two equal communities, and fortunately, we are behaving more and more in a way that reflects that reality. Of course we are minority communities, but we are no less valuable. As I get a kick out of saying to my members, a small apple is no less an apple than a large apple. And a people small in number is no less a people than one large in number. Furthermore, the people of New Brunswick are inclined to want to welcome newcomers to their communities.

    And, of course, there has to be recognition of credentials. I may ask Ms. Blin to talk later about the concept of temporary permits, students and permanent permits. It must also be recognized that, in New Brunswick, we Francophones want to bring people in, not to make them part of our minority, but to integrate them into a community that is expanding. We are also recommending that the committee pay close attention to how the first $10 million the federal government so kindly provided to New Brunswick is being used. We know that the work will not be completed in the next three years. While it's a long process, at this point, we should be thinking of renewal of the multi-year plan.

    Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, perhaps because of our own originality in New Brunswick, we are just as anxious to work with the 200 million Francophones around the world as with people of Latin American origin, whom we mustn't forget. In these countries, 40% and 50% of the population is under the age of 20. Do you not think they will be looking for work somewhere, at some point, and do you not agree there is extraordinary potential in Latin America, in terms of also increasing our Francophone population? I strongly believe there is.

    So, I would like to ask Anne-Lise to make some comments in her capacity as an immigrant to this country, and talk a little bit about temporary permits and students.

    Thank you, Jean-Marie.

    Good morning everyone, and thank you for your invitation.

    I fully support all the comments Jean-Marie has made thus far. He went over the recommendations you have in front of you. I would simply like to mention one other aspect related to the mandate of CIC, which does not recognize temporary permits and students. It favours only permanent residents, which unfortunately poses a challenge for the communities, because funding is not available to help temporary residents and students, who are nevertheless individuals with real potential as permanent residents.

    I am an example of that. I came here under the Working Holiday Program, simply to discover the region, and subsequently returned with a work permit. I am currently in the process of securing permanent residency, and soon will obtain citizenship. We believe there is a need to work with the University of Moncton, but Nova Scotia has the same problem. There are a lot of international students—Francophone students. We want to keep them here, but unfortunately, we have nothing to offer them in the way of services, and as a result, we lose them. There is a need to broaden CIC's mandate.

    In New Brunswick, we are lucky that an agreement has been signed with the Population Growth Secretariat providing for a $10 million budget. The Secretariat recognizes temporary immigrants and students. That is an advantage that we have compared to other provinces. So, this is something that should be looked at. That is the point I wanted to add.

    Thank you both very much. I am sure committee members have quite a few questions for you. Without any further ado, we will begin with Mr. D'Amours.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I also would like to thank you all for being here this morning. Mr. Nadeau, you did not read your statement. However, I did take the time to read the documentation we were provided.

    I would like to say one thing that everyone already knows. At the present time, Francophones represent one third of the population of New Brunswick. Francophones, in particular, represent 32.7% of the population, of which 5% are immigrants. You are seeking some balance. Provincial government officials were here several weeks ago to talk about the $10 million, but there is no obligation or clear indication of the percentage of Francophone immigrants that New Brunswick is hoping to attract.

    The goal is apparently 5,000 immigrants, although it's not clear. You mentioned that Francophone immigrants represent 5%. However, if you compare that percentage to the kind of balance you are seeking to achieve—about one third, I imagine—the fact is, we are quite far off the mark when it comes to New Brunswick.

    Yes, very far off the mark.

    If you don't mind, I will just continue, because I know that you are a good talker. I will let you comment afterwards.

    You noticed that, did you?

    I think it will be easier that way, because otherwise, I will have to cut you off.

    A voice: He is from Madawaska.

    Mr. Jean-Claude D'Amours: You are both from Madawaska; now I understand.

    On Tuesday of this week, we heard some heart-rending testimony at the Samuel-Genest Catholic College here in Ottawa. Francophone immigrants, students and teachers explained their reality.

    Whether we're talking about Francophone immigration to French-speaking areas or to English-speaking areas, the biggest problem we're facing is that we can't seem to integrate Francophone immigrants, wherever they decide to settle.

    In terms of employment, social integration or meeting their basic needs, the fact is that we are not even able to meet these needs. We want to bring them here, but we are not capable of looking after them.

    I know that Ms. Boyer mentioned earlier that there are a lot of meetings taking place with researchers. It's great to be asking researchers to observe what is going on, but what is needed is for people to take the trouble to go and see these people, in order to understand what they are going through. In our area, that is what I did through the Carrefour d'immigration rurale de Saint-Léonard which is facing serious issues, partly connected to integration.

    I would like you to address these two issues: the actual percentages, compared to the goal for the province of New Brunswick, and integration. Perhaps you can use the example of New Brunswick this time.

    Certainly, in our discussions with the government, we are aiming for at least 32.7% of total immigrants. If the idea is to attract 5,000, at least 1,500 to 2,000 of them should be Francophone. I believe that should be the government's objective. That's why we are very pleased to finally have funding and to have been able to start bringing the main players together, including the people of Saint-Léonard.

    The Acadian Peninsula has just acquired a coordination centre in Bathurst. There is also the CAIIMM, which is the Centre d'accueil et d'intégration des immigrants et des immigrantes du Moncton métropolitain. This has to be part of the government's plan, but it is not for the time being. In practice, we are nowhere near that, because they are talking about less than 5% at this point.

    The province of New Brunswick is a province that people leave to go elsewhere, not a province that people come from. It is obvious that we will not be able to resolve all the issues on our own. We will have to work closely with the government. The model for integrating Francophone immigrants in Canada is currently the one used in French-speaking Manitoba, because in that province, the people have a symbiotic relationship with their government. I don't know whether that is because a New Democrat government is in office, Mr. Godin, but they do work together. For us, their way of doing things has become a model to be followed in terms of integrating immigrants. That is the way the government and communities should be working together, and it is what we aspire to.

    As I said, there is some turbulence on the provincial scene. The Population Growth Secretariat used to be part of Enterprise New Brunswick. Now it is under the Ministry of Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour, which has more of a general mandate, in my opinion. In terms of diploma equivalencies, that may help. This year in New Brunswick, we have taken a step forward in terms of linguistic duality. At the post-secondary level, French-language community colleges are now grouped together under the name Collège communautaire du Nouveau-Brunswick. So, we will be able to work directly with the colleges and universities. With respect to--

    Thank you very much, Mr. Nadeau.

    Thank you, Mr. D'Amours.

    Holy God!

    It's a good thing I asked my questions.

    Yes.

    We will move to Mr. Nadeau.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Good morning to you all. I am sure you understand that five minutes is not very long.

    Cousin--

    Ah, ah!

    --I happened upon the book L'Acadie possible, which I found very interesting. It talks about societal projects in Acadia and contains information that could be helpful to us. For one thing, it reveals that New Brunswick has the largest Acadian French population, in terms of percentages, in a given province. In Ontario, where I'm from, Francophones pride themselves on the fact that there are a half million of them, except that they are surrounded by 11 million people and scattered all across the province. I'm from Eastern Ontario. Montreal being a suburb of Hawkesbury, we have a lot of influence on that region of the world, as I'm sure you can understand.

    In your book, you say that “interculturalism” should replace multiculturalism, specifically as a means of fostering integration in Acadia. Could you clarify for me the difference between these two avenues and tell me why you think one is a solution, compared to the other?

    In Canada, there is a shift from biculturalism to multiculturalism, in my opinion. I think we have to make it clear to our brothers and sisters from other parts of the world who want to come and live here that we have two official languages. We should be encouraging them to retain their own language, but telling them at the same time that, in order to become properly integrated—and the Chinese population in British Columbia is a good example of that, in my opinion—they must also learn French and English. Ideally, people coming here should set as their own personal goal and challenge—and be told this right from the outset, as soon as they leave Slovenia or Russia—the learning of two languages, which is not necessarily a daunting task. Europeans, in particular, are used to learning several languages. It is we, Canadians, who have trouble learning other languages—especially English-speaking Canadians.

    I do not understand how it's possible that 7% of English-speaking Canadians are bilingual here, whereas in England—which is not a bilingual country to my knowledge—20% of English people speak English and French. That is a contradiction that I just don't understand. And that's why I say we are missing the boat by not focussing more on this country's fundamental values, including the bilingual component.

    So, for me, interculturalism means that, from the very beginning, wherever people come from, they know there are two official languages that define this country. We encourage them to retain their language and its specificities, but they must subscribe to bilingualism. So, we should be promoting biculturalism, rather than multiculturalism, which seems to be what we are doing now.

    I understand. There is another point you make that I found quite interesting. In the book you say: “Urbanization rimes with assimilation.”

    Yes, because even in a city like Moncton—the assimilation rate in New Brunswick is still between 7% and 9%, although people don't realize this—in Greater Moncton, the assimilation rate is 22%. The most bilingual city, in a bilingual province and a bilingual country, has a unilingual casino. People believe that New Brunswick is already a linguistic paradise. I would like to make it one, but I would not claim that the province has already achieved that status. However, it is something we should aspire to and we will achieve it with our English-speaking friends.

    I think we are reaching an interesting level of linguistic and intercultural maturity in New Brunswick. Our English-speaking friends are increasingly open and generous, even though there are still rednecks and some people who want us to return to France. There will always be people like that.

    Do I have any time left, Mr. Chairman?

    You have one whole minute left, Mr. Nadeau.

    That's fantastic. Let's keep going.

    You also say in this book: “Bilingual structures are taking a beating, and we are witnessing the emergence of Acadians, and therefore Francophone organizations [...]” So, bilingualism is something that is pulling us down; and the Francophonie in Acadia, in terms of integrating newcomers—because we want them to be Francophones— pulls us up.

    Can you clarify exactly what that means?

    Bilingual structures are a little like the Tower of Pisa, in that they always lean in the same direction—in the direction of English. Our English-speaking friends have a lot of trouble understanding why we want homogeneous institutions. Furthermore, people tend to talk about Francophones in Acadia. But the Francophone community in Atlantic Canada already has a name: Acadian. And there are Acadians of Brayon origin, like Mr. D'Amours and myself. It's such a great name, why not use it?

    Often, rather than celebrating and dealing with a strong identity such as that one, Canada will tend to trivialize it by francisizing everything, when in fact, I don't think we should be doing that. Instead, we should be “Acadianizing” in Atlantic Canada, francisizing in the rest of Canada and “Quebecizing” in Quebec.

    Thank you.

    I thought you were going to say we should “Acadianize” Canada. But I cut you off just before you said it.

    That would obviously improve its quality.

    I'm sure Mr. Godin would agree with you.

    Go ahead.

    I do agree with you.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to welcome you all.

    You said you held a meeting in Moncton to bring people together. Did you also go to Nova Scotia?

    No.

    Do you intend to go there?

    It's possible. The pre-conference days take place just prior to the national Metropolis conference, which takes place every year. The national Metropolis conference travels to the five different Metropolis centres of excellence, which are located all across Canada. There have been some in Atlantic Canada, which includes the four Atlantic provinces. The last time the national conference took place in the Atlantic provinces, it was held in Moncton. The next time, if our project is renewed in 2012, it may be in another Atlantic province. We would be very pleased to hold it in Nova Scotia.

    Mr. Léger, you talked about the $10 million that New Brunswick has received and the fact that Nova Scotia is jealous.

    It's envy; we are envious.

    As you know, that $10 million amount exists only on paper. We have seen none of it. Why ACOA? What justification has to be given to ACOA? ACOA is the government's economic development agency. What do you think this would bring to Nova Scotia?

    First of all, when we heard about the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality and saw that there was $10 million in there for Francophone immigration, all the provinces were thinking that they have also been working at Francophone immigration. So, they wondered why they didn't receive any money. I think it's more along those lines. It wasn't jealousy; it was envy. We are happy for our Acadian colleagues in New Brunswick. We haven't seen the results yet.

    For Nova Scotia, it would mean that our province could do more. I mentioned in my presentation that there is a federal-provincial agreement on immigration, but there is no official languages funding attached to that agreement. As a result, provincial funding for the community comes exclusively from the province. CIC does give a little money to the community, but the province has no other way of helping the community.

    Ten million dollars—if that were the amount given Nova Scotia—would in fact mean that we could provide better intake and integration services. At this point, reception services are limited to Halifax. In the rural areas, we have very little money for immigration, retention or intake. So, some of the money could be used to enhance services for Francophone immigrants across the province and with the support of the province.

    There are very few Francophones in Grand-Pré, right?

    Yes, but Grand-Pré is not necessarily Francophone. Grand-Pré was Francophone prior to 1755, but it is now more of an English-speaking area. There are areas like la Baie Sainte-Marie, Par-en-Bas, the Argyle region, the Chéticamp region, the l'Isle Madame region, the Sydney region, the South Shore, and so on. There are 10 regions--

    You heard what Mr. Nadeau said. Do you agree with him?

    I agree with him in part. I would say that the Société de l'Acadie du Nouveau-Brunswick is having trouble moving forward when it comes to Francophone immigration. I don't know why that is. I don't know whether it's because the province is not necessarily very well organized. I don't want to get back into what Mr. Nadeau said.

    The myth is that the government is embarrassed about bilingualism.

    Yes.

    Do you agree with that?

    Yes, I do.

    You almost said that you were embarrassed.

    Yes, I am embarrassed to say yes.

    Are you embarrassed to say yes?

    Yes, I am.

    Two weeks ago, Minister Moore stated openly, over the airwaves, that the bill providing for bilingual Supreme Court justices was dividing Canada.

    Yes, I read that.

    Do you think it is dividing Canada?

    No, on the contrary, it is uniting Canada. Linguistic duality in Canada means that the two communities can be strong. They can work together and develop. I think that is healthy for a society. I really don't think that linguistic duality is dividing Canada.

     Mr. Duncan, do you believe that language unites people or divides people?

    I think this is an extraordinarily complex question. Researchers who have been looking at not just the francophone minorities in Canada but also at other linguistic minorities in Canada, especially now that some of them are growing so large, for example, the Chinese and Indian enclaves in Toronto--

     I understand that, but we have two peoples who have built this country, though, right?

    Thank you, Mr. Godin.

    Yes. My point was simply going to be that you're seeing tensions in both ways and trends in both ways: that the bilingualism is working, even in those communities, as both a force of separation and a force of unification. I think what researchers are finding is that it depends on how the communities themselves decide how they want to take advantage of the plurality of language in their city.

    So it seems to me that most researchers would argue that if a community decides it is an advantage to be linguistically diverse, this is something they can take to their advantage. Toronto is an example of a city that has taken diversity--

    But we need leadership--

    Thank you, Mr. Godin. That was even more than what we are allowed.

    Monsieur Généreux.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I would simply like to clarify one thing. The Minister of Canadian Heritage did not say that bilingualism was dividing Canada; rather, he said that your bill, Mr. Godin, was dividing Canada. There is a very big difference.

    Even though I missed their presentation, I have some questions for the witnesses representing the Metropolis Project. In March, Metropolis held a national conference on immigration and a pre-conference session on the specificities of Francophone immigration in Canada, which was intended to be a stock-taking exercise and an opportunity to determine exactly what the current situation is.

    In fact, I would like to commend you for organizing it. This format allowed for extensive exchanges of views between stakeholders from different communities. We have already had some feedback. It was appreciated. Part of the pre-conference session took the form of a forum involving pre-determined questions, including this one: what policy and program changes would improve the community's ability to engage in partnerships which meet the ever-evolving needs of users, who are increasingly diversified? What is the role of non-government organizations when it comes to attracting, integrating and retaining French-speaking newcomers to Canada?

    I would like to know what came of the forum, particularly with respect to that issue, and whether other important points were raised on that occasion. Perhaps you could tell us about that.

    Mr. Chairman, I would just like to refer to the Montreal report, that we would be very pleased to share with the committee. If you would like to have it, I should tell you that it is a report which includes a summary of all the comments that were made, including those in relation to the questions you just asked.

    In terms of the role of the community, we noted, based on studies carried out by researchers associated with the Metropolis Project, that the community plays a critical role in integrating and, especially, retaining immigrants. Once immigrants have been economically integrated into the community, they must feel welcomed by members of that community. That is where community organizations play a very important role. That day, we also concluded that municipalities can play a greater role, and that they often do not have enough information, are not properly trained or prepared, and do not have access to enough resources to handle the arrival of French-speaking immigrants.

    If you don't mind, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to point out that I was the Mayor of a city in my riding in the Kamouraska region. The neighbouring town had welcomed 30 or more Colombian families to work in a hog slaughterhouse. These immigrants included doctors and lawyers. For them, that job was a way of coming to Canada.

    Earlier, you talked about recognizing credentials. However, it is important to understand that, when people do not speak a word of French and only speak Spanish, there must be minimal integration into the community. In our case, they had a lot of trouble, despite that fact that they had jobs. They had a lot of trouble with even minimal integration into the community. Two years later, they all left. They decided not to stay, despite all the efforts made by the municipality.

    I understand that municipalities should be very much involved in facilitating immigrant integration. When we talk about the communities, we are basically talking about local communities that can play a very significant role. I believe strongly in that; there is no doubt that this is important.

    I would like to come back to the forum. There were quite a few people in attendance. Since we have been examining this issue in committee, I have noted two very important things. In terms of integration, we are really talking about employability, meaning that immigrants have to have access to potential jobs and be properly received by the community. These are two extremely important pillars, as well as education—in other words, training people when they arrive in the chosen community.

    These two very important issues—education and employability—came through in our committee hearings. Did these two issues turn out to be as important at your last conference?

    That was especially the case in terms of the research. At the pre-conference sessions, economic integration was identified as a critical component. Our researchers also regularly made the same point. It was also noted that, in order to find a job in a minority community, English is often a requirement. As well, it was mentioned that language acquisition services should be provided by Francophone community organizations. That would afford an opportunity to learn English—albeit, through a Francophone community organization, which could also give rise to new connections with the Francophone community.

    Moreover, when parents realize that economic integration is difficult, they often decide that it would be more beneficial for their children to speak English. At that point, they register them in an English-language school, and that is when they become assimilated into the majority Anglophone community. That's why it is important to encourage them to register their children at French schools.

    Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

    We now start our second round, with Mr. Bélanger.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Mr. Léger, I would like to welcome you to the committee. First of all, I want to extend my sincere thanks for the clarifications—let's describe them that way—that you provided with respect to the efforts made by the provincial government in Nova Scotia, and particularly, the lack of services in French or the non-availability of such services. That may not have been the impression that we were given when we met with certain individuals. So, I appreciate those clarifications, because they will be helpful in preparing our report.

    I also note a desire that you expressed earlier. You said that you would like to see the government refugee initiative—which has been tested in Manitoba—extended to other areas. I do hope this will be featured in our report and our recommendations. That remains to be seen.

    I would like to ask a question about targets. I discussed this in particular with the representative of the Nova Scotian government or agency. I wanted to know whether, like myself, you would like there to be a target. If so, is it your intention to approach government officials to discuss this?

    Yes, we definitely would like the government of Nova Scotia to set a target for Francophone immigration. We have already discussed this with government officials. In fact, this is the right time to make that suggestion, because Nova Scotia is currently reviewing its immigration strategy. We have been in touch, particularly since the Office's intervention. As a result of your question, we contacted the Office with the idea of moving forward on the issue of percentages. They are not sure yet how they will deal with this.

    However, we would like the target to be greater than 4% in Nova Scotia. In Nova Scotia, 4% of the population are mother-tongue French speakers. As far as we are concerned, 4% is woefully inadequate and we would like the target to be between 8% and 10%, at the very least. Obviously, that is a minimum, and not a maximum. At the present time, Mr. Bélanger, we have figures that are not insignificant. We are actually approaching 6%, 7% and even 8%. It has even gone as high as 9% in recent years. What is important is to maintain these percentages and increase them.

    Thank you.

    Ms. Boyer, I am happy to accept your offer to forward the list of researchers, as well as the subjects of their inquiries. I think that would certainly be of interest to committee members, and could possibly be an appendix to our report.

    I would like to know, quickly, if there was anyone doing research aimed at comparing Francophone immigration in rural minority communities to Francophone immigration in urban minority communities?

    I don't think there is a study dealing with that specific issue, but some researchers are looking at integration in both the rural and urban environment.

    Well, I do hope that the Metropolis Project—the minority group component—will give this some thought, because, based on the testimony we have received thus far, there is a significant difference in approach, technique, success and failure, depending on whether it's rural or urban immigration.

    I think we will have to look at this. In my view, no organization is in a better position to do that than Metropolis and its network. So, I hope that will happen.

    There is another aspect I would like to address with you. This has not yet been done, but I don't think it's too late. I think research should be done on the usefulness of immigration targets. I don't know whether that has already been done. In any case, I am passing this on to you, for future consideration.

    Thank you very much for that recommendation. That has not been done yet.

    Is my time up yet?

    Yes, it is, Mr. Bélanger.

    You can't be serious?

    I'm leaving, Mr. Nadeau! Ah, ah!

    I would now like to recognize Ms. Guay.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    How many minutes are you giving me, Mr. Chairman?

    The Chair: You have five minutes.

    Ms. Monique Guay: I actually think that, when immigrants arrive here and have qualifications, it is important that they immediately be able to work in their field, particularly if they are able to speak the language. For example, in my riding, there was an Iranian couple, both of whom were nuclear physicians, which is very rare. They both spoke very good French and English. In fact, I think they spoke four or five different languages. They had to work at the emergency for two years to satisfy current requirements. That is too bad, because it isn't always necessary.

    It was the same situation when we brought nurses here from Belgium, France, and other countries, because of a shortage. So, I think we should look at this very seriously. I even think we may have to make representations in that regard to the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

    As regards immigrant integration, I would just like to tell you about what I see on an ongoing basis in my own riding—which is 99% Francophone—and where immigrants settle and become well integrated. I have not had the same experience as you. We have an organization that looks after them as soon as they arrive—immediately—and puts them in touch with Quebec families. It helps them to find a job, a place to live, provides support and helps the children. In fact, when the parents arrive, they have to take French courses, because they do not necessarily speak French. The children go to school, but the parents are unable to help them do their homework. So, this organization helps the children do their homework. It has a very well structured and well organized system in place. People stay, because they learn to love Quebec and the region. They adjust twice as quickly as would be the case if they were in large urban centres.

    I don't know whether the situation is the same for you in your respective provinces, but I would be interested in hearing your comments on that.

    That is exactly what we aspire to. At one point, the Government of New Brunswick resisted the idea of involving the communities, but it ultimately realized that, without the communities, integration would be extremely difficult.

    In that vein, I would like to tell you about an African family with eight children—this occurred in Prince Edward Island, not in our province. They arrived in PEI, went to Montreal and returned to PEI. Unfortunately, their house burnt down, but by the following morning, they already had another house, because the community supported them. They returned to live in PEI.

    So, that is also our aspiration. We cannot attract 500 Senegalese to the Acadian Peninsula over night, without educating residents. We know that we will have a major challenge on our hands in terms of public awareness and public education.

    It is important not to rely on public education alone. These people also have to be offered services when they come here. If we don't have adequate human resources to receive them when they arrive… They are from another culture and are not yet familiar with Quebec culture. I experienced pretty much the same thing you did. I have a spouse who is from France. He came to Quebec because I was here, and I did not want to live in France.

    It was love.

    Ah, ah! But it wasn't easy for him to adapt to life in Quebec, even though he spoke the language.

    No, it isn't always easy to integrate into the community, even for someone who is French.

    No, it isn't always easy. Now, he is very well adjusted; don't worry. He may even know more Québécois words than I do. It's easier when you are acquainted with the culture, but there must be the appropriate infrastructure in place to provide services to immigrants, so that they can find jobs, and so forth. I would like to know whether you have access to these kinds of services.

    It's like the CAIIMM in Moncton. There is a list of families who are ready to put people up for one, two or three weeks, while they look for a place to live. There are also community services, like the Salvation Army, which are able to help people temporarily. That is exactly what the community is prepared to do. Also, we can bring them together, from time to time, for intercommunity activities.

    And what about government financial assistance?

    We finally succeeded in securing $10 million for Francophone immigration in New Brunswick. We are anxious to get down to work, but we have been delayed for a year and a half because of problems in negotiations between the federal and provincial governments.

    Thank you very much, Ms. Guay.

    We'll now continue with Ms. O'Neill-Gordon.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    I extend a warm welcome to all our witnesses and a special welcome to the New Brunswickers. As a New Brunswicker myself, I have to extend a warm welcome.

    I was happy to hear Mr. Nadeau mention Mr. Bernard Lord's name. As all New Brunswickers know, he was a very strong promoter of the francophone and Acadian culture. He did a lot in that area.

     As well, whether or not he promoted the five-year action plan that we're into now, our government is certainly happy to implement this. It's an historic road map that provides $1.1 billion, as we all know, towards the promotion and protection of both official languages in the communities. This is the most money ever dedicated for this purpose. New Brunswick was very fortunate in receiving more money than any other province, with $10 million going toward this.

    The SANB has put in place a table over which it presides and is a key player on the issue of francophone immigration in New Brunswick. I applaud all of you for that. I've heard that while there has been perhaps a slow start with the present provincial government to get the issue off the ground, things have progressed a bit so far. I'm wondering if you could elaborate on some of the successes you have had and where things could be improved.

    Where immigration is concerned, the urban communities are always ahead of the rural ones, except for the region Mr. D'Amours is from. There have not been many initiatives. Even in the Miramichi area, I don't believe there is an immigrant reception committee. Bathurst and the Acadian Peninsula have begun, and Campbellton will be starting soon.

    St. John is also a real success story. The Anglophone community has a school-community centre where a wonderful lady, Rama Kuresh, of Tunisian origin, is doing a fantastic job with immigrants. Sometimes Canada tends to focus a little too much on wealthy immigrants or immigrants coming to invest. When I was there three or four weeks ago, there was a Congolese carpenter and a Congolese electrician. These occupations are overlooked. We tend to want to attract people from the upper class, when in fact we need increasing numbers of plumbers, truck drivers, and so on, as I was saying earlier.

    So, the SANB's work was put on hold for a year and a half. We waited and were told not to do a thing, because the money would be coming. So, we were a little frustrated, but now that it has gone through, we're happy. Ms. Blin was only hired two or three weeks ago. However, we do have enough people on the ground now to start coordinating work and developing tools together.

    Another success story would be in the field of medicine. The University of Moncton, the CAIIMM and other immigration agencies developed a lexicon for foreign physicians, to help them communicate with Acadians. For example, Acadians call diarrhea cholera. Medically speaking, there is obviously a big difference between the two. A doctor can make a patient sicker if that patient tells him he has cholera. So, it's small scale initiatives such as this that simplify things and allow people to move forward. We want to see more initiatives like that. We're very happy to at last be able to get fully involved in the immigration file.

    I have another comment. I was happy to hear Julie Boyer mention that they were taking steps to help the parents learn English, because when we met at the school the other day, we heard that was one of the main challenges that caused them to move back to their country: they couldn't get integrated into the communities.

     They felt they just didn't belong, so they were going. Because of not having English, they couldn't find jobs. That was the biggest thing. I'm sure all of you have come across that along the way.

    Thank you, Ms. O'Neill-Gordon.

    Mr. Godin has left the room, so we will begin the third round with Ms. Zarac.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I would like to thank all our witnesses for being here today.

    My question is for Mr. Duncan, which is a follow-up to your discussion with Mr. Godin. You mentioned that the community makes decisions about linguistic diversity. But I would like to remind everyone that Canada is a bilingual country. Perhaps you could answer with a simple yes or no, because I have several questions.

    Do you not agree that, in a bilingual country, the decision-making responsibility rests with the government and that it is up to the government to promote linguistic diversity?

    I certainly believe the government has a responsibility for the linguistic duality of the country. As you well know, there are many programs under way for exercising that responsibility.

    But I think we need to understand that in a situation of the sort we're talking about here, the social realities are not entirely determined by government policy. There is only so much that any government in the world, at any level, can do. We need to understand the dynamics, many of which play out in the local community.

    There's a saying in the immigration world, around the world, that integration is local. Yes, national governments can create conditions for success—

    But we can also create ghettos. That's why we have to make sure that we contain in a way that we don't create ghettos: don't you agree with that?

    Absolutely. Nobody likes ghettos--

    But I have other questions.

    I have other questions I would like to explore.

    I made a quick calculation. You are currently receiving more than $1,600,000. That funding comes from 13 different departments. You quickly listed the priority areas you are working in.

    Does each department provide a specific amount? Is it difficult to operate that way? Would it be simpler if the process were different?

    The different ministries provide different amounts, but the set of six priority areas is determined by consensus among all of them.

    So, it's not tied to a specific area. That's great; that gives you more flexibility.

    You also said that you receive an additional $1 million a year from other sources. Could you quickly indicate what those other sources are?

    The other sources could be other government ministries.

    These are the researchers themselves in the universities. They get them from other programs of the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council—

    So, this is money the researchers receive.

    Exactement.

    Or they get them from provincial governments or foundations. There are many sources they can draw from.

    So, that is not funding from the Government of Canada. Fine, thank you.

    I have a question for Mr. Nadeau. I kept it until the end because I realize the answers will have to be a little longer.

    You are the envy of many provinces because you have been given $10 million. However, you mentioned that you only recently began accessing the money. One of the questions I prepared was about what you had been doing with the money thus far. However, I imagine you haven't really had the time to do much.

    Since there isn't much time, and given that you have to prove that a project is effective before it can be accepted again, my question is somewhat different. I would like to know if you will have time to prove that the $10 million will be used effectively and that you need the $10 million to continue your activities.

    I believe so, because even though the agreement was only signed with them in February—we indicated that in our material—they moved ahead. Also, the lady in St. John I talked about earlier is now working thanks to that funding. We were also able to hire Anne-Lise with the money. Some time was wasted, unfortunately, but we are determined to use the money and use it wisely.

    Did anyone tell you why it took so much time to break the logjam?

    Well, it's related to administrative details and petty turf wars. I can't tell you exactly why, but I do know that we lost time as a result.

    Fine, thank you.

    Do I have any time left, Mr. Chairman?

    You have 30 seconds left. Manage them well.

    Mr. Duncan, in the course of our meetings, we have often heard that there is a need for balance. Did you make that recommendation because you are an advisor to the government and are tasked with making recommendations? Is this an idea that came from the researchers, because it's very important if we want to maintain some balance in our minority communities? That means assigning certain percentages. Is that a recommendation that has been made by researchers?

    What do you mean by “balance”?

    For example, the minority community represents 33% of the population in Nova Scotia, and there is a need to ensure that we will keep it at that minimum level, or the same percentage. In other words, we have to ensure that 33% of Francophones emigrate to the province.

    Yes.

    Is that a recommendation that has been made?

    Are you talking about maintaining the demographic weight of the minority communities?

    Yes.

    Yes, that is absolutely true.

    There has also been discussion of recommendations with respect to assigning percentages.

    Metropolis Project researchers are looking less at recruitment and how to attract immigrants than at the need to retain them. The fact is that much of the research shows that there is secondary immigration to Quebec or assimilation. So, they are addressing a lot of these issues, particularly how to retain them.

    Which stakeholders can play a role in that area? And what do immigrants feel are the programs that can support them best in terms of their integration?

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Thank you, Ms. Zarac.

    Ms. Boucher, please.

    Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to our committee. This has been a very interesting discussion. It is especially interesting to be studying immigration, because we learn something new every day.

    As Mr. D'Amours was saying, we had an opportunity this week to visit a school. It gave us a chance to get out of our bubble. We saw things differently, and heard from parents and students. As I am sure you realize, young people can more easily become integrated than people who are a little older.

    Earlier, there was quite a lot of discussion about credential recognition. I am not very comfortable with acronyms, but I would like to read one of the SANB's recommendations:

    

    Basically, recognition of foreign diplomas is a provincial government responsibility. That is unfortunate, and we are anxious to do our share, but each government and each province has its own criteria when it comes to recognizing foreign diplomas. For example, in recent years, Quebec has signed agreements with France for the recognition of certain diplomas and professional credentials, such as for midwives and doctors. That shows that this is something a provincial government can do.

    Could you explain how you perceive the federal government's role in initiatives of this kind?

    I am going to ask Anne-Lise to answer.

    The agreement signed by France and Quebec is a very valuable one. However, the fact that every individual province has to do this on its own doesn't make things any easier, because that only concerns Francophones… It means that the provinces have to approach all the Francophone countries, and this is not necessarily something that a provincial government is interested in doing. Foreign credential recognition is something that has to be negotiated with French-speaking countries.

    At the same time, if there were nation-wide standardization with respect to foreign credential recognition, if only in Canada, the task would be much easier for each province.

    Well, when we try to introduce standardization, often we are told that we are interfering in the provinces' jurisdiction. So we have to be careful.

    Yes, I understand.

    The reality we saw and felt when we visited the school on Tuesday was that this goes well beyond what governments can do. It goes beyond what we are talking about here. To a very large extent, integration occurs through contact with human beings and the community.

    Yes, absolutely.

    The question I asked on Tuesday was whether they maintain ongoing contact with Francophone communities. When immigrants come to Canada from Africa, Turkey, Colombia or Salvador, is there frequent contact between them and your organizations, so that they see what the Francophone community is all about? And is that the case with every organization?

    Yes, it is. There are a number of organizations in New Brunswick that handle community integration. We recognize that one of the main reasons for the successful integration of immigrants there is the warm welcome they receive from Acadians and from the people of New Brunswick. Welcoming them into the community is really very important. Yes, they have to find a job. Without employment, they won't be able to stay, but even with a job, if that community support is not there, people will leave anyway.

    Each organization focuses extensively on community integration. That is why we are in the process of developing more organizations. Also, through my position, we will be trying to coordinate our activities, so that we can talk about best practices and achieve more consistency across the province.

    I have another question. I am going to talk mainly about New Brunswick, because it's the province I am most familiar with, along with Quebec.

    Are there a lot of young immigrants in your province, or are you seeing that it is primarily the parents who are coming to New Brunswick first?

    There is not much time left, Ms. Boucher.

    In school, we often see that young people are a lot better able to become integrated. In fact, the young people reverse roles with the parents, to a certain extent, because the parents have trouble adjusting. Are you seeing the same thing in New Brunswick?

    I don't have any statistics, but there is no doubt we are seeing the same sort of thing. I think it's universal. The Société de l'Acadie du Nouveau-Brunswick has created a director position for new Acadians on the Board and we are encouraging other Francophone organizations to do the same. In fact, Anne-Lise was previously the new Acadian representative on the board of directors.

    So, efforts are being made, and there is no doubt that young people are much better integrated; that is clearly the case everywhere.

    Thank you very much, Ms. Boucher.

    We will now complete the third round with Mr. Nadeau.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    We have been talking about credential and diploma recognition. This is a very complex problem. I did a study on access to post-secondary education in French outside Quebec. This goes back some time, to 1987. The fact remains that there are differences even between universities in the same province. For example, you decide to take courses at the Faculté Saint-Jean at the University of Alberta, which is part of the same institution. However, those courses are not recognized because they were taken in French. The universities claim to be independent, but they are 80% subsidized by governments. That is part of the equation. Imagine what it's like from one province to another.

    I taught in three provinces, and every time, I had to take additional courses to receive the equivalent of what I had in the province I had just left. Imagine what it's like for a newcomer to Canada who doesn't understand how this works! In Canada, we talk about whether an elephant falls within federal or provincial jurisdiction. We debate the issue and end up deciding that, because it's exotic, it must fall within federal jurisdiction. I won't press the point, but that certainly is a problem.

    I would like to talk about Acadia as a whole—the first Acadia as it was when Acadians were deported from Nova Scotia. There are still large communities in the southern part of the province and in Cape Breton. I am aware of that because I worked there for quite some time. There is an interesting feature about Acadia, and it could be a role model. I am talking about the agreements between France and Acadia, for instance. When a student had completed his studies in an institution and been accepted in France, he could go back home and get a job—at least his credentials were recognized.

    Coming back to you now, Mr. Nadeau, you referred in your book to the sovereign states we should be dealing with. For the provinces, this is a major problem in many respects. You cited the example of Martinique. Maybe we should go and visit, particularly since the weather is nice. In Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, it rains more, but there may be things we can do there as well. You talked as well about the CODOFIL, and our friends--

    In Louisiana.

    Our Louisiana friends are the children of the deportation, but they retained an historical connection to us. Personally, I completed my secondary studies in Minnesota, where people would say to me: “Hey, you don't speak English here, you speak American”. At least it sounded similar.

    Is there anything you would like to draw our attention to, in anticipation of our report, with respect to agreements that we might want to sign with specific countries? Earlier we were talking about what is being done in Quebec for nurses and doctors, but we could also mention the fact that young people from France are able to pursue post-secondary studies here as a result of these kinds of agreements. If I'm not mistaken, the SANB and the SNA have done a lot of work in this area.

    I don't think Canada is taking full advantage of Francophonies d'Amérique. Quebec should be commended for acting on this initiative by Benoît Pelletier to create the Francophonies d'Amérique. This will be a tool for the future. Haiti is a country that participates in the Sommet de la Francophonie and with whom we should have a special relationship. This is something that Canada could put on the agenda of the summit—in other words, establishing working groups, within Francophone countries at least, with a view to developing a mechanism whereby diplomas, credentials and experience can be recognized.

    Now I don't know when it comes to plumbing, whether pipes are the same in Belgium, Canada and Quebec. But there is no doubt that, with upgrading courses, it would be possible to move things along more quickly for plumbers, for example. We can only encourage that sort of initiative.

    I don't think Canada is taking full advantage of Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guinea, Haiti, and so on. Quebec should also make this part of its mission.

    Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

    We have just completed our third round. The committee has some business to attend to. So, I would like to propose a forth and final round of three minutes each.

    I have a question for you, Mr. Duncan. Maybe you can answer if have any reports. You've mentioned that we have to understand the social reality and the factor that without a government margin of manoeuvre.... Could you elaborate if you have any documents or papers...?

    First, I'm willing to let the members have the floor.

    At this moment,

we will continue now with Ms. Glover.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I would just like to make a few comments about bilingualism in Canada. We all agree that bilingualism unites us. It is part of our Canadian identity. So, when people ask whether bilingualism divides or unites us, I think we all agree on the fact that it unites us. It's part of our identity.

    Mr. Nadeau, in terms of your question about Manitoba, I think I can help. In 1999, the Conservative government in that province published the Chartier Report. A judge had prepared that report for the then Premier, Gary Filmon. It is that report that influences services in French in our province and that has been used for the last 10 years to ensure that services are provided in French.

    In fact, the province of Manitoba receives a considerable amount of money from the federal government because its situation is such that it needs transfer payments. So, every time 40¢ on the dollar is spent in Manitoba by the provincial government, that 40¢ is coming from the federal government. It shows an extraordinary level of commitment to our province by the federal government. You are not the only one to say that Manitoba is a role model.

    With respect to New Brunswick, the FCFA report clearly states in English:

    That is incredible. And then it continues, noting that since 1991 the French population—the people with their mother tongue being French—has remained mostly constant.

    New Brunswick is also a role model because its population is not suffering the effects of assimilation, and I hope we can learn something from you in that respect.

    I will be sharing the small amount of time allocated to us with Mr. Weston.

    Thank you very much, Shelly.

    Mr. Duncan, you said that bilingualism could be a force for separation or unity. We saw that when we visited the school in Ottawa, thanks to our colleague, Mr. Bélanger. In the wake of that meeting this week, it has become clear to us that, both for the young people we met and their parents, both French and English are needed as languages of integration. What can we do in that area?

    I think that most of the people here believe that the existence, survival and full development of French are better served in one great united country than in small separate parts.

    What can we do to ensure that this continues 50 or 100 years from now? Would you care to answer, Mr. Duncan?

    Briefly, what I would suggest is that communities take seriously their efficacy here: that they're not victims of larger social forces, but that communities can effect change themselves. If one of the changes they want to effect is to bring about a stronger feeling of unity or sense of common belonging in their community, large or small, this is something they can do.

    Now, is there federal help available? Well, there's a myriad of programs to which they could apply for funding, but I think the important point is that even a city as large as Toronto is able to take it upon itself to declare that diversity is its strength and to act on that, and in my view and the view of the researchers at Metropolis, with a lot of success.

    This same sort of attitude could be taken in very small communities just as well. But what is very important for this particular topic is that we all recognize how mobile people are, how many options people have, and how well acquainted they are with those options.

    There is a certain competition here for workers, and urbanization is winning that competition right now. The efficacy that's in communities needs to be accepted, realized, and acted upon.

    Thank you, Mr. Weston.

    We'll now move to Monsieur Bélanger.

    I am going to have myself “Acadianized”, Mr. Nadeau.

    Well, we really like Franco-Ontarians.

    I would like to quickly come back to the question of targets. In your brief, you say that 5% of immigrants to New Brunswick are Francophone, one third of the population is French-speaking.

    What does the SANB intend to do, Mr. Nadeau, to ensure that the current level rises to at least one third? Are you satisfied with one third or do you think it should be a little higher for a certain period of time?

    We really like the approach taken in Nova Scotia, which is to aim higher to be sure to at least achieve the target. What we have really reacted most to is the fact that so far, our government has had no such concern, in terms of targets for Francophones, in its own immigration policies. It looks as though immigration is possibly seen as a threat, whereas we should, on the contrary, see it as an opportunity. So, we are clearly aiming for a rate of 33%, but we are not under any illusion. We will get to work on this, and it may be easier to discuss it three years from now, if we are able to achieve it.

    Mr. Léger and Mr. Nadeau, I would like to hear from both of you.

    As I recall, the plan developed by the community and Immigration and Citizenship Canada currently sets a target of about 1.9%. The idea is to raise that to 4.2% by 2025, that being the percentage of the Francophone population outside Quebec. But in my opinion, that is much too late.

    I realize this is not something that can be accomplished in two or three years, but we're talking about 15 years to reach the current level. I would like to know whether you agree with those targets and whether you were consulted when they were being developed.

    We may have been, but I have been with the SANB for a year and a half and heard nothing about them.

    Jean has been around a lot longer.

    A community member sits on the national committee. The issue was addressed in that forum. When the number came out, however, I was not at all satisfied, Mr. Bélanger. I think it's far too low to stimulate any renewal. In terms of changing it and how it was negotiated in Ottawa at the committee, I really don't know. But to be completely frank, it is inadequate.

    I would like to come back to one point. Immigration in Canada falls under federal jurisdiction, does it not?

    It is an area of shared jurisdiction.

    It's shared, but as I understand it, it is ultimately the federal government's responsibility, according to Canada's Constitution. In that case, why is the Government of Canada letting the communities fight with the provinces to secure minimum percentages? Why, when it signs an agreement with the province, does the federal government not remind it that there is an official languages clause and dictate a specific percentage?

    At present, our small communities are knocking on the province's door, but it is the federal government's responsibility to set the numbers. That is how the recommendation should be made.

    Mr. Léger, thank you very much for that excellent comment. I think the committee should take a closer look at this.

    Yes.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Bélanger.

    Mr. Godin, please.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I want to apologize for having had to leave the room earlier. I was needed in Parliament.

    Mr. Léger, you wrote to Ms. Ambrose requesting support for the Acadian and Francophone community. You said in your letter that you would like to meet with Mr. Ken Swain. According to your letter, he was designated the most senior official in Nova Scotia. You have been trying to meet with him since 2009. Did you ever succeed?

    No, we have never been able to arrange a meeting, nor did we receive a letter from the Minister updating us on the situation. We received an acknowledgement, but no official date for a meeting.

    It's not bad enough that the community has to fight with the province to get numbers. In addition, it has to fight with the federal government to secure a meeting with officials in Nova Scotia.

    I see that as a lack of respect on the part of the federal government for the communities—communities which are recognized by that same federal government. There are official language communities and they are recognized as such. We are funded by Canadian Heritage. We enjoy a certain recognition.

    Be careful: they might cut your funding. Don't say too much.

    It's difficult. It certainly is with Immigration Canada. In Nova Scotia, departmental management is exclusively Anglophone. One person speaks French. Other than that, however, there is minimal capacity within the department.

    It's too divisive.

    Pardon?

    It's too divisive. Bilingualism is too divisive.

    The fact is, though, that the linguistic capacity of many departments, including CIC, in Nova Scotia, and probably in other provinces, is not adequate to really support the community.

    We were talking about support for newcomers earlier. That is very important. We also talked about jobs, and people arriving here without a job. I want to commend you for focusing on that. When you take a taxi to go to the airport in Ottawa, for example, you realize that the taxi drivers are almost all engineers, technicians or that sort of things. It is simply unacceptable that they are still driving taxis. And you have made recommendations that deal with that. As I see it, the credentials and skills of immigrants coming to this country have to be recognized. It's fine to have immigrants come here, but we don't want them to go on welfare once they're here.

    There is another factor that can have an impact. For example, if a Francophone immigrant who is an engineer comes here from Africa, his credentials have to be recognized by the Association of Professional Engineers of Nova Scotia. The association receives all the documents in English and is not able to translate them. So, that is an additional burden for Francophone immigrants. We have experienced this at the provincial level, even in Nova Scotia.

    As a general rule, you will have to ensure that the federal government absorbs the cost of translating these documents.

    At the very least, we should be supporting the professional associations and raising their awareness of the need to provide services in both official languages and to have certain resources in French. Otherwise, this represents an additional burden for immigrants.

    Thank you.

    How does it work in Nova Scotia with people who come here to study in university and decide they want to emigrate to Canada?

    Do some people who go to Nova Scotia to study end up staying afterwards?

    It's surprising, actually. Most immigrants who come to Nova Scotia stay there. They remain Francophone immigrants because within the Halifax Metropolitan community, with a population of 400,000, there are 12,000 Francophones. It's a small community within a community.

    These same immigrants go through the FANE at the intake stage, or through the university, to receive training or participate in internships. We see them after that in the community—at mass, for example. The immigrants come and talk to us and become integrated. I am a very simple person. I always say that if, in the final analysis, they have work and are well treated, they will stay.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Chairman, I would like some clarification. Mr. Léger mentioned that when engineers in Nova Scotia receive documentation in English, this causes them problems.

    I am sorry. I would like to correct that. When Francophone immigrants send their documentation in French, there is a problem because the professional association is not able to translate them.

    Thank you for that clarification.

    We are going to complete our round.

    Mr. Nadeau, would you like to add something?

    Of course.

    Please do.

    Mr. Léger, I think you wanted to answer a question earlier about France and Acadia, student training, and so on. I believe you had some comments to make. Here is your opportunity.

    As regards relations between Acadia and other French-speaking countries, I think that the federal government could support youth mobility programs, for instance. There is also the Working Holiday Program and the France-Acadia Agreement which provides for youth mobility. It seems to me that youth mobility across French-speaking countries would be a very good idea. Those ties should be strengthened.

    At present, the Société nationale de l'Acadie is developing an agreement, with France, through the Office franco-québécois pour la jeunesse to bring French trainees to Acadia. I think this should be supported by the federal government, because when young people come to our region, they discover Canada in addition to discovering Acadia. Sometimes they want to stay in our region. It's a way of recruiting Francophone immigrants, if you like.

    We have living proof of that here, don't we, Mr. Nadeau? Thank you very much.

    It is now my pleasure to thank our witnesses. I would ask you to leave the room and remain outside for a few minutes. I have to keep committee members here because we have a report to adopt. I will give them back to you after that, because I am sure they would like to speak to you personally.

    We will therefore be meeting very briefly in camera. I would ask all committee members to remain in their seats. We will be distributing the documents for the report.

    [The meeting continues in camera.]