LANG Committee Meeting

    Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this 17th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

    This morning, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), we continue our study of immigration as a development tool in official language minority communities. It is our pleasure to have with us two groups of witnesses.

    This morning we are hearing from Mr. Daniel Cayen, from the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie. Mr. Cayen is Assistant Deputy Minister at the Office of Francophone Affairs, Government of Ontario. Welcome. We also have the Director General, Francophone Affairs Secretariat, of the Government of Manitoba, Mr. Guy Jourdain. Welcome.

    We're going to start with the representatives of the Government of New Brunswick, Ms. Monique Drapeau-Miles, who is Executive Director of Population Support, Population Growth Secretariat, at the Department of Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour of New Brunswick. Welcome. She is accompanied by Mr. Mario Boisvert, who is an Immigration Program Officer at the Population Growth Secretariat.

    Ms. Drapeau-Miles, I invite you to make your opening speech.

    Mr. Chairman, committee members, thank you for this opportunity to present New Brunswick's achievements with regard to immigration as a development tool in official language minority communities.

    As a result of bilingualism and its cultural wealth, New Brunswick is an exceptional place. As it is the only officially bilingual province, special efforts have to be made to maintain the linguistic balance as its population increases. That is why francophone immigration is a priority for New Brunswick.

    I'll start my presentation with an overview of the agreement reached with ACOA, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, and partnerships enabling the Government of New Brunswick to support the vitality of the Acadian and francophone communities. I'll continue with a presentation of the current situation and finish by telling you about future steps.

    The Government of New Brunswick is deploying dynamic strategies to promote francophone immigration. As a result of the Canada-New Brunswick Agreement on Provincial Nominees, we have a mechanism enabling us to increase the economic benefits of immigration. Our recruitment initiatives in francophone countries have produced promising results, but we must step up our promotional and recruitment activities. Much remains to be done.

    We won't be able to take advantage of recent successes if we do not continue recruiting while we build our institutional infrastructure. New Brunswick has designated demographic growth as a cornerstone for our future. The government has introduced a demographic growth strategy and has undertaken to increase the number of immigrants to the province by at least 5,000 a year between now and 2015. It has also made a commitment to preserving New Brunswick's linguistic profile among recruited immigrants.

    To better attract, recruit, integrate and retain francophone newcomers, the provincial government has developed a program based on the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality. The provincial program provides for a number of strategic activities designed to increase the number of francophone immigrants. In September, AOCA signed a $10 million agreement with the Government of New Brunswick to support francophone immigration. This involves approximately $2 million a year over four fiscal years. The agreement signed with ACOA will support and strengthen efforts made to bring francophone immigrants to New Brunswick.

    Taking a larger number of francophone immigrants into the francophone community helps maintain the gains made in those communities, while affording immigrants an opportunity to contribute. To do this, our involvement in the Roadmap is stepping up actions taken to facilitate recruitment and immigration, particularly by supporting francophone immigration to New Brunswick.

    The province's objective is not just to increase the number of francophone immigrants, but also to facilitate their intake and integration into our communities. Our plan takes into consideration all initiatives carried out as well as the status of existing services. The purpose of the plan is thus to better equip the francophone communities to enable them to fully play their immigration role.

    Our settlement framework entails four major long-term objectives: increase the number of francophone immigrants; reinforce the francophone community's ability to attract immigrants; facilitate the economic integration of newcomers into our francophone communities; and, lastly, facilitate newcomers' socio-cultural integration. These objectives will be achieved through specific activities: supporting promotion of the province in francophone markets and enhancing New Brunswick's appeal among francophone immigrants; implementing settlement assistance services in the francophone regions; involving employers and the business community, as well as local economic development agencies; and, lastly, improving promotion and recruitment activities.

    Through greater recruitment efforts, we anticipate an increase in provincial nominees and temporary work permits. Our recruitment and promotion efforts will also target international students attending or considering attending the Université de Moncton and the province's community colleges. A promotional kit will be designed and distributed to international partners, New Brunswick's ambassadors and the Alliance française. Candidates with working holiday visas will be recruited in France, Belgium and Switzerland. New Brunswick wants the francophone regions to have settlement capacity. The objective is to ensure that the communities have the necessary tools to address the issues relating to diversity and multiculturalism in the regions, both rural and urban.

    In regions where there is no settlement assistance service, the communities, through the program, will be able to offer newcomers services similar to those provided by the urban centres. To secure community commitment, it is important, first and foremost, to involve community leaders and stakeholders in establishing a local immigration and multiculturalism committee.

    The provinces are working in cooperation with the municipalities, the regional economic development agencies, the existing community agencies, community leaders and, as necessary, other funding agencies to create local immigration and multiculturalism committees focused on the creation and oversight of immigrant services agencies.

    The goal is to create regional resource centres for immigrants, in partnership with community stakeholders. The agencies in Fredericton, Moncton and St. John will also receive support to improve existing services. Since the Roadmap promotes a joint approach by the various partners and helps consolidate existing networks, the Government of New Brunswick is currently developing an integrated approach.

    The government has also signed a partnership agreement with the Société de l'Acadie du Nouveau-Brunswick to enable it to: encourage its members to take part in local francophone immigration and settlement committees; establish a working group of francophone community immigration stakeholders to consult stakeholders and gather their opinions on francophone immigration; and take part in the francophone immigration and settlement working group chaired by the Demographic Growth Secretariat, consisting of representatives of the SANB and the federal and provincial governments.

    This agreement signed with SANB will enable the government to pursue these strategic objectives: increase the awareness of the Acadian and francophone community of the wealth of the province's cultural diversity and of the opportunities afforded by immigration; the opportunities for newcomers to better grasp the socio-political and cultural context in which they find themselves; and joint action by community stakeholders and the Government of New Brunswick to promote the introduction of settlement and integration activities.

    After the agreement was signed with ACOA, a steering committee was struck by the Demographic Growth Secretariat to oversee the project's direction and progress. It includes other stakeholders concerned by francophone immigration, such as ACOA, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, the Department of Canadian Heritage, Status of Women Canada, Service Canada, Intergovernmental Affairs, the provincial Department of Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour and the Regional Development Corporation.

    The Demographic Growth Secretariat is currently examining proposals for the fiscal year that meet the objectives of the agreement reached with ACOA. Two immigrant reception centres are now open: the Centre de ressources pour les immigrants operated by the Association multiculturelle, Chaleur de Bathurst region, and the Centre d'accueil des nouveaux arrivants de la Péninsule acadienne, in Caraquet.

    The regions of Madawaska—Victoria and Restigouche—Chaleur are establishing their own immigration and multiculturalism committees. They intend to offer immigrant resource centres in those regions soon. As for the Southeast—Kent region, the Secretariat is working with local community leaders to optimize available resources to assist immigrants who have chosen to settle in those regions.

    In the three urban centres of Fredericton, Moncton and St. John, there are funds for existing immigrant services agencies and francophone social services agencies so they can improve their settlement assistance service for francophone newcomers.

    Now let's look at the next steps. The goal isn't just to increase the number of francophone immigrants in the francophone communities, but also to facilitate their intake and integration in those communities. In cooperation with service providers and the federal government, the Government of New Brunswick will be adopting measures to ensure optimum integration of francophone newcomers, while facilitating the implementation of and access to French-language services.

    The government will step up its efforts to recruit francophone immigrants and to promote New Brunswick as a preferred destination. Documentation designed to improve services provided to francophone immigrants will be updated.

    A promotional support program will also be set up to offer a new source of funding in addition to the federal government's program for non-profit organizations, professional associations and other stakeholders so they can pay travel expenses incurred when they represent New Brunswick employers in activities organized outside Canada for the purpose of recruiting francophone immigrants. We will continue to ensure that the francophone regions of New Brunswick have settlement capacity. In addition, we will be assisting immigrant service agencies in improving their program delivery and support for newcomers.

    In conclusion, it is no easy task to reverse declining population. The government cannot do it alone. In addition, special attention must still be given in New Brunswick to maintaining linguistic balance.

    I have just described for you the process designed to step up our efforts to recruit francophone immigrants and to build the necessary infrastructure to promote their social and economic integration. However, to increase francophone immigration, it is essential that all interested parties take part in the process in order to attract and welcome francophone immigrants.

    The role of the government of New Brunswick is to facilitate and coordinate these efforts, but all interested parties must contribute so that those efforts are successful.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Drapeau-Miles.

    We'll continue with Mr. Guy Jourdain.

    Mr. Jourdain, go ahead, please.

    Good morning, ladies and gentlemen members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages. My name is Guy Jourdain. I am the Executive Director of the Government of Manitoba's Francophone Affairs Secretariat and with me is Daniel Cayen, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Government of Ontario's Office of Francophone Affairs.

    Today we are representing the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie—which I will simply call the conference in the rest of my remarks—at the request of our two respective ministers, namely Mr. Greg Selinger, Premier of Manitoba and Minister responsible for Francophone Affairs, and Ms. Madeleine Meilleur, Minister responsible for Francophone Affairs of Ontario. Both, of course, are members of the conference.

    We would like to thank the Standing Committee on Official Languages for the invitation to the conference to delegate representatives to appear before it today. We consider this invitation as an important acknowledgement of the conference's role as a key player in the area of Canadian francophonie.

    Since francophone immigration is a major theme within the Canadian francophonie, the conference is pleased to note that your committee is undertaking a study on immigration as a tool for the development of official language minority communities. The conference has been devoting continuous efforts to the issue of francophone immigration for almost two years. We would like to touch on the following themes with you today: first, the conference's comprehensive vision with respect to the issue of francophone immigration to Canada; second, the need to strengthen intra-governmental and intergovernmental relations with regard to francophone migration; third, the key role of civil society in the area of francophone immigration; and, fourth, the contribution the conference wishes to make to the future of francophone immigration to Canada.

    Before going to the heart of the matter, I'd like to say a few words about the conference. It is an important intergovernmental forum that promotes dialogue and cooperation among the federal, provincial and territorial governments regarding the Canadian francophonie. It consists of the ministers responsible for the Canadian francophonie from all provinces and territories of Canada as well as the federal minister responsible for official languages. I should make clear that we are here today strictly on behalf of the governments of the provinces and territories, with the exception of Alberta, which abstains from taking a position on this matter in the current circumstances.

    The conference ministers work in a concerted way to advance issues affecting the Canadian francophonie and take action to foster its development. To fulfil the conference's mandate, the ministers meet annually to focus on various topics and to take measures conducive to strengthening the Canadian francophonie.

    I would now like to move on to the first theme that I identified earlier, the conference's comprehensive vision on the issue of francophone immigration to Canada. The substance of the conference's actions with regard to francophone immigration draws from the report it produced in 2006 entitled, Canadian Francophonie: Issues, Challenges and Future Directions. I believe a copy of that report was submitted to the clerk. It presents a summary of the principal issues, challenges and future prospects for the Canadian francophonie, based on consultations held throughout the country with provincial and territorial governments, as well as with many francophone organizations at the sectoral, local, provincial-territorial and national levels. The report proposes priorities for action in the immigration sector, among others. The conference believes that francophone immigration is an element essential to the vitality of the French fact in Canada and is of crucial importance to the Canadian francophonie as a whole.

    Francophone immigration has become an essential avenue for the demographic growth of the Canadian francophonie. Governments must, therefore, develop public policy and concrete strategies in this area that focus on the ultimate goal of ensuring the ongoing development of the Canadian francophonie.

    It is important to point out that, in recent years, significant progress has been made throughout the country with respect to francophone immigration. Thus, a number of governments are already supporting numerous initiatives that testify to the importance of francophone immigration. Furthermore, you will have had the opportunity to hear from witnesses from certain provincial and territorial departments responsible for immigration, including the New Brunswick department, this morning.

    Today, the conference wishes to highlight the progress that has been made and emphasize the need to continue efforts that are already underway. To this end, aligning actions among all government players with a stake in this issue is absolutely necessary. It is from this perspective that the conference sets its priorities for action in this area. Lastly, we wish to point out that Quebec, which has a general policy that it will not appear or be represented before federal committees, has a specific agreement with the federal government with respect to immigration.

    Now I would like to address the second theme, the need to strengthen intra-governmental and intergovernmental relations with regard to francophone immigration. At a federal-provincial/territorial meeting held in Vancouver on September 23 and 24, 2009, conference ministers affirmed the importance of the issue of francophone immigration to Canada and pledged to play a strategic role in this area. In one of its actions, the conference encourages increased cooperation between the federal, provincial and territorial governments with respect to francophone immigration. We believe that more concerted action on the part of the various governments on this issue will foster the development of synergy in their efforts.

    During the past year, the conference partnered with the National Metropolis Pre-Conference on Francophone Immigration in Canada to organize an initial meeting of representatives from federal, provincial and territorial governments, francophone communities and the research community to increase dialogue and discussion in this area.

    During the pre-conference, discussion topics included: the roles and responsibilities of the various levels of government working in this area; the roles played by non-governmental organizations and local partners in recruiting, settling and reintegrating francophone newcomers; and, lastly, ways to promote the creation and maintenance of strong francophone networks in Canada.

    In particular, the pre-conference allowed conference members to build stronger ties with public servants from immigration ministries and at a pan-Canadian level. In doing so, the conference positioned itself so that its members can more effectively perform their role of catalyst within their respective governments and promote a strengthening of intra-governmental relations in the area of francophone immigration.

    Similarly, it is important to point out that the Strategic Plan to Foster Immigration to Francophone Minority Communities launched by the federal government in 2006 proposes, among other things, essential elements that favour aligning policies and programs aimed at immigration and francophone communities. The conference generally agrees with the main outlines of the strategic plan and considers it a valuable tool for fostering cooperation among the governments themselves, on one hand, and between governments and civil society, on the other.

    I would now like now to move on to the third theme, the key role of civil society in the area of francophone immigration. As we are speaking of civil society, we must say that, while governments have a crucial role to play, the role of communities occupies just as important a place. Specifically, the contribution of civil society is essential to the development of public policy. Ongoing dialogue with communities as well as among the various governments is crucial in order to develop strategic directions and to advance the issue of francophone immigration. In particular, communities have a strategic role to play at every step in the development of reception, retention and integration structures for recent immigrants. Ongoing dialogue with the community as well as among the various governments is crucial in order to advance the issue of francophone immigration toward orientations and measures that meet real, clearly-defined needs.

    I am now going to move on to the fourth and final theme, the contribution the conference wishes to make to the future of francophone immigration to Canada. In light of the remarks that we have already made, the conference desires increased cooperation between governments, focused on action strategies that aim to better align government efforts in the area of francophone immigration to our country. This is where the conference intends mainly to focus its action.

    The conference has made a contribution in bringing together major players from the francophone immigration sector and in creating a positive dynamic. The conference and the various stakeholders should capitalize on this positive dynamic to achieve progress without delay. The conference intends to exercise a role of leadership and influence in the area of immigration. During their next meeting in Yellowknife on June 22 and 23, conference ministers will continue their reflection with the goal of setting definite directions for action on this issue.

    On behalf of the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie, I would like to thank you, ladies and gentlemen, members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, for having invited the conference and allowing it to share its position with you.

    Thank you very much.

    We thank you for being here.

    We'll begin our first round of questions with Mr. D'Amours.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Thanks to all four of you for being here before us.

    Is it possible that Minister Arseneault is Chair of the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie?

    The Chair of the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie at this time is Minister Yamamoto from British Columbia.

    That's good.

    I'm going to start with Mr. Boisvert and Ms. Drapeau-Miles.

    Ms. Drapeau-Miles, you talked about some issues involving immigrant students and the Université de Moncton and the community colleges. You said your goal was 5,000 persons between now and 2015. Does that mean 5,000 francophone immigrants between now and 2015?

    We were talking about 5,000 immigrants in total.

    Of those 5,000 immigrants, is there a specific percentage of francophones that you would like, or are you just thinking about immigrants in general?

    We're talking about 5,000 immigrants, but we always want to ensure there is a linguistic balance in New Brunswick.

    You mentioned certain places, such as Bathurst and the Acadian Peninsula. I'll come back to Mr. Jourdain and Mr. Cayen in a moment, but we are considering the entire issue of rural francophone immigration. Let's talk about the Carrefour d'immigration rurale in Saint-Léonard. Do you have any ties with them? If I'm not mistaken, these are francophones in a rural area.

    We have ties with the Carrefour d'immigration rurale in Saint-Léonard. I mentioned that when we developed the settlement plan, we took existing services into consideration. Currently, in the Madawaska-Victoria region, that is to say Edmunston and Grand Falls, there a coalition of community stakeholders exploring how to expand services and to work with existing services. There was even a meeting with some 20 stakeholders, I believe, who said how the offices could supplement what the Carrefour d'immigration rurale de Saint-Léonard is offering. There was a meeting this week—I believe it was on Wednesday. Unfortunately, I haven't heard the results of that meeting, but I can send you the information.

    That coalition includes the Université de Moncton, Entreprise Madawaska, Entreprise Région Grand-Sault, the Edmunston Chamber of Commerce, the Edmunston reception committee, the Saint-François-de-Madawaska reception committee and the regional office of the Department of Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour. The towns and various communities are represented. There's a real desire to improve services in that region, not just in the municipalities. We also want to serve the rural regions. It must not be denied that many francophone communities in New Brunswick are first of all rural. The purpose of taking part in the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality is really to target those regions.

    So what you're telling me about is at the provincial level. However, our study concerns immigration in the official language communities. In our case, these are francophones outside Quebec and anglophones in Quebec. In your case, we want to know what the province is planning to do for francophone immigration to New Brunswick.

    I'm going to go a little further. Perhaps Mr. Jourdain and Mr. Cayen can speak. We're talking about a major situation. The same is true in New Brunswick when it comes to francophone immigration. People first go to a place where there are work, services and opportunities for advancement. The rural communities are all experiencing the same thing; this is not just a matter of immigration. In general, people who live in these communities are having trouble with all that. The first choice among immigrants is to target these areas and these needs before deciding where they will settle. They often won't go to small centres, small villages, because something will be lacking, just as something is lacking in the rest of the population.

    We're wondering what the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie is going to do. Is it going to take measures to try to provide more assistance to francophone immigrants outside Quebec in settling in small communities? Will it show that there are employment needs? Will it show that there is a need for resources to be offered in those regions? Will the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie also be working a little in this area?

    I'm going to try to answer your question, Mr. D'Amours. However, I would like to make a few preliminary remarks perhaps to summarize the essential aspects of my presentation.

    With regard to the ministerial conference's role in the immigration issue, I see that somewhat as a three-legged stool. Here I'm borrowing the expression of Hubert Gauthier, whom you no doubt know very well. The three legs of that stool are as follows. There's intergovernmental cooperation, that is to say cooperation between the federal, provincial and territorial governments. There's intra-governmental or interministerial cooperation, that is to say the francophone affairs network, to which Daniel Cayen and I belong, and the immigration departments. The third leg or third element is significant participation by the community agencies of civil society in this matter. We play a role of leadership, influence, as a catalyst and ambassador to encourage our governments to advance and make progress on francophone immigration.

    With respect to your question more specifically—

    Mr. Jourdain, please answer quite quickly because I would like to give all parliamentarians time to speak. However, I can ask you to hold your answer and come back to it later.

    I'm going to give a very brief answer.

    In general, you are absolutely right in saying that francophone immigrants settle in the major centres or metropolitan regions.

    As I said earlier, the conference would be entirely prepared to play a role as ambassador and to encourage stakeholders so that more immigrants settle in the rural areas. However, we don't have any specific measures to recommend in that regard, but we are prepared to work in that direction.

    We'll continue with Mr. Nadeau.

    I read the ministerial conference's summary on the presentation made in 2006. I note two very important points. In it, they note common issues and challenges affecting francophone communities across Canada.

    I'm going to mention those two points to you. Mr. Cayen and Mr. Jourdain, since you are the representatives of that organization today, I'd like to hear your comments on this point. They mention “a precarious and uncertain demographic future, which raises serious concerns”. This is one of the factors appearing in your document. The other is “an increasingly fragile perception of identity and feeling of belonging, along with linguistic erosion”.

    Could you clarify your thinking on those matters?

    Yes, certainly. You're entirely right to say that these are findings by the ministerial conference. We talk about this idea of precariousness or erosion. We've developed a strategy and a set of measures designed to correct these problems and challenges. Major axes have been determined, including the entire youth sector, the issue of building a strong identity among youth and the entire matter of economic development in using the added value of bilingualism in our communities to break into national and international markets. Immigration is, of course, one of the main factors in somehow renewing our communities.

    Mr. Cayen, do you have anything to add on this point?

    No.

    All right. Two factors concern me regarding the exercise you are conducting, a laudable and appreciated exercise. And that is the entire issue of newcomer orientation. You say that people mainly go to Winnipeg, for example, in the case of Manitoba, or that they mainly go to the major centres or to Toronto, in the case of Ontario. In Quebec, 80% of immigrants go to Montreal. I'm from Gatineau. It's the fourth largest urban centre in Quebec. As you can understand, that's roughly 4% of the remaining 20% and it's still the same issue. This is a North American phenomenon. It isn't anything new. You'll understand that the day we manage to attract people to the other regions, we'll have taken a major step and we'll heartily congratulate the person who has found the solution.

    That said, let's talk about schools. One of the factors is the education of children in French. When newcomers come to the country, do you draw the distinction for them between schools for students whose mother tongue is French and immersion schools, which are assimilation schools if French is your first language—so anglophones can learn French, not for francophones to go there and waste their time? Do you inform newcomers of that difference?

    I can't give you an answer for Canada as a whole. I don't know what's going on in the field in each of the provinces and territories. However, I can answer you with regard to Manitoba. I believe the representatives of Francophone Hospitality came and testified before you last week. Francophone Hospitality offers an absolutely fantastic assistance and support service and ensures that the children of immigrants and refugees are registered at francophone schools, not immersion schools.

    So an effort is being made in that area.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

    We'll now move on with Mr. Godin.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to our witnesses from New Brunswick, Manitoba and Ontario.

    Let's hope the reception centre isn't the Moncton casino because francophones are too well received there. For example, if there are four francophones and one anglophone seated at the table, everything happens in English. I had no choice but to mention that. For those who don't know it, that subject has been in the newspapers back home for a week now. The language spoken at the casino is English, and there are no bilingual machines. It's incredible. These people haven't discovered the button that gives you the option for English or French. I had to mention that; it was right on the tip of my tongue, and it came out in French.

    Who is responsible for the $10 million provided under the Roadmap for New Brunswick over the next five years? Is it the province or ACOA? If it's ACOA, how do you go about getting the funds? If it's the province, how are they used? For example, earlier you mentioned Caraquet, Bathurst, various regions in the province. Do they have access to that funding? What is the program?

    I knew the question would be asked so I prepared. You're asking who is responsible for managing those funds. In fact, the Population Growth Secretariat is responsible for the program's day-to-day management. The Société de développement régionale is our banker; that's where the money is deposited.

    So it's at the provincial level?

    Yes, it's at the provincial level.

    However, ACOA has a role to play. There are guidelines for the way the funds are used. So it's not a free for all. A plan has been developed. In fact, a certain amount is allocated to recruitment and promotion. Some amounts are set aside for the opening of regional centres that would not be just in the cities, but in the rural areas as well.

    The Population Growth Secretariat is responsible for managing the program, but there is a steering committee that assists us in supervising and moving files forward. As I mentioned in my address, that committee includes representatives of the federal and provincial governments. The agreement that was signed provides for very specific measures concerning the funding that must be paid.

    You say it isn't a free for all, but ACOA is also taking part in the process.

    Does the province have to submit a project to ACOA, which validates it or not, and which forwards the guidelines? Or is it free to do what it wants to do?

    There is a framework for the guidelines. We have a very specific mandate and the secretariat consults ACOA, where a particular project—

    Do you get the impression it's well shared within the province? In New Brunswick, the north is always against the south.

    You know there's a target francophone population in the northeast and northwest.

    Depending on the settlement framework looked at, we'll essentially enhance services in the three urban centres, that is to say Moncton, St. John and Fredericton.

    They aren't in the three urban centres?

    We're not going to fund what's already there. We'll provide additional funding to improve services offered to francophone immigrants or to immigrants who speak French.

    Mainly, in addition to increased funding for recruitment and promotion—funding will be allocated across the province—we're considering establishing regional centres in the northwest. Services will be established in Restigouche. In Bay of Chaleur, we've already established a centre. There's the Acadian Peninsula. We're also considering the southeast, the Kent region, but we're still considering what services might look like.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Godin.

    We'll now move to the third member from New Brunswick, Ms. Tilly O'Neill-Gordon.

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Welcome to all of you, and a sincere welcome to New Brunswickers.

    Being a New Brunswicker myself, I guess these people deserve an extra-special warm welcome.

    I'm from the Miramichi, and I'm happy to have you here today.

    As a New Brunswicker, I have to say, too, that it was very encouraging to see that our government, through ACOA, assigned $10 million to our province to promote the francophone immigration. As we all know here, New Brunswick is our only bilingual province, across Canada. So our government is happy to work with the province in promoting this objective, and I was happy to hear you tell Mr. Godin that it is being well supervised and monitored for the good of all New Brunswickers.

    My question has to do with New Brunswick being a member of the Citizenship and Immigration Canada francophone minority communities steering committee. What is your assessment of the strategic plan to foster immigration to francophone minority communities?

    To answer that, I really want to build on what my colleague talked about. Immigration is not a stand-alone initiative. Interprovincial, intraprovincial, and federal-provincial-territorial—and let's not forget the community—engagement and collaboration is critical for our success. It's one of these files where we really have to work together to seek success.

    Oh, I started talking and I lost the question here. Please repeat it.

    What is your assessment of the strategic plan? Is it working?

    Oh, yes, I find that the strategic plan is really giving us a good framework to work in collaboratively. We're an active member of that committee and we always welcome the participation of that committee for the exchange of best practices. It's certainly a good way to collaborate and even find out which other regions have experimented or have some significant initiatives.

    I go back to the previous comment; in rural Canada, there are special circumstances. If somebody sees a success, that's a forum in which that experience can be shared. But the framework also gives parameters. It gives some very specific themes and priorities, and we really welcome the opportunity to be part of that forum.

    As we all know, arriving in a new community, one of the main things is to be able to communicate with the people around you. Does the province provide language classes for these immigrants, and if so, could you describe those programs and explain what part French plays in the language training of these immigrants?

    In terms of language training, in addition we talked about this $10 million for participation in Feuille de route. That complements additional funding from Citizenship and Immigration Canada. We can't forget the contribution of that department. They also provide funding through settlement services that provide language training in our immigrant-serving agency.

    Again, the $10 million to Feuille de route is to augment what's in existence, and based on the community need, will develop language training in partnership with the local service delivery agency.

    On this $10 million that is assigned from ACOA, does the province monitor this? Are they in charge of this? Who is in charge of it?

    The daily management of the fund is with the Population Growth Secretariat. It's part of the Department of Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour, but we do have a steering committee that assists more in the monitoring of the progress, because this is all new to the province. Given that we're the only officially bilingual province, I'm sure all other jurisdictions are watching with a really close eye our progress, our success, our indicators.

    I think this multi-level steering committee is very helpful in monitoring this. I mentioned earlier that ACOA is a funding partner and an active member of that steering committee.

    Thank you, Ms. O'Neill-Gordon.

    Now we can start the second round of questions with Ms. Zarac.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning to our witnesses.

    My questions will be for Ms. Drapeau-Miles.

    The target for your province is 5,000 immigrants a year until 2015. Do you believe that's a realistic target for a province where immigrants constitute only 1.5% of the population?

    It's a vision, a target. I can ask my colleague Mario Boisvert to provide more details on that subject, but so far this year, we've reached approximately 2,000. We've recently seen a significant increase.

    The Population Growth Secretariat was established in 2007. We previously had an immigration program, and I'm going to ask Mr. Boisvert to describe it.

    I don't want to address the subject too extensively. I just want to know whether you think it's realistic to achieve that percentage.

    I believe other witnesses mentioned the issue of employment. Economic integration is critical.

    That's what you need. It's to meet needs. I wonder whether it's realistic or not. The percentage of immigrants that go to your provinces is nevertheless very low. So I was wondering if that was realistic.

    You say 5,000 persons. As one-third of the population of your province is francophone, how do you plan to have francophones to maintain that balance and proportion of francophones in your province? What percentage of those 5,000 individuals will be francophone immigrants and what action are you taking in that regard?

    First, I'm going to let Mr. Boisvert talk about the increased efforts on recruitment and promotion. Then I'll talk about the measures we've taken to improve intake. When I talk about intake and settlement, I'm not just talking about socio-cultural integration, but also about economic integration.

    I'd really like you to understand my question. I'm emphasizing the percentage of francophones because our study concerns that issue. In your actions, how are you going to maintain the balance with regard to the 33% francophone population?

    Good morning.

    As regards the percentage of francophones, I'm going to go back a little to talk about our efforts in francophone countries. The province began making its efforts when our programs came under the immigration division of the department responsible for businesses in New Brunswick. Two francophones were hired and assigned to the francophone countries. At that time, we were told to go and find people interested in coming to New Brunswick.

    As we knew more or less where to turn, we checked with other provinces regarding activities that were going on around the world in the francophone countries. So we found a few countries. Now we are regularly in France, Belgium, Romania, Tunisia and Morocco. We're exploring new destinations. We made exploratory visits to Egypt and Cameroon in 2004. The Canadian embassy in Paris is very much involved. We are optimistic about achieving our goals or at least we'll be very close to achieving them.

    What are those objectives?

    Roughly one-third.

    Those are your objectives. All right.

    First, since 2002, New Brunswick has had to make itself known in Canada as a bilingual province where people can speak French. So there has been a lot of awareness in that regard. Francophones are afraid of going out into a world they don't know. So this is taking time to start up. The first figures we had in 2002 were negligible. Now, from year to year, we see the figures and applications constantly doubling.

    Thank you.

    Thank you very much, Ms. Zarac.

    We'll now go to Mr. Nadeau.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Political will is needed. You're talking about things that have been implemented or discussed in the past 10 years or less. I'm painting a general picture, depending on the places or provinces.

    Have specific budgets been allocated to foreign francophone immigration for francophones to settle in the various provinces, or are we talking here about a large provincial general envelope? Is there a political will and is there funding to implement it?

    I entirely agree with you with regard to political will. This is quite a new issue. Efforts have been made since 2002-2003. We've nevertheless seen significant progress over a period of seven or eight years.

    As for budget envelopes, I don't know the details of the situation in every province or territory, but I would say it varies. I'm going to cite the example of Manitoba because it's the situation I know best. The francophone target there is 7%, and funding is directly allocated to that. I suspect, however, that this isn't the case everywhere else in the country.

    Can Mr. Cayen tell us about the situation in Ontario?

    I'm not really mandated to speak on behalf of the Ministry of Civic Affairs and Immigration. However, I could find that information. As far as I know, no funding is set aside at the ministry for francophone immigration.

    All right.

    And in New Brunswick?

    Naturally, a large portion of ACOA funding is currently being allocated to francophone affairs. We previously allocated resources specifically for recruitment and francophone immigration promotion, in particular. However, I can't give you any exact figures in that regard.

    Is it an envelope specifically reserved for the French fact in New Brunswick?

    It's a bilingual province. So we offer services in both official languages. To isolate an amount—

    I understand that. It's a simple question, but if you don't know the answer, that's not a problem. You can tell us whether political will is combined with a budget envelope?

    That's part of the overall budget of the Population Growth Secretariat.

    Thank you.

    The Citizenship and Immigration Canada steering committee met with members of the francophone minority communities on May 10, three days ago. Did you attend that meeting, Mr. Jourdain.

    A member of our network took part, René Boudreau from Saskatchewan. We're represented on the steering committee.

    If I understand correctly, every province is invited. There are also people from the federal government and the communities. It isn't necessarily in that order, but the fact remains that all these people meet. I read that it's a total of 54 persons when everyone attends.

    You say someone from Saskatchewan represented Manitoba?

    I'll try to clarify that.

    The Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie consists of ministers and elected members. In addition, a network of government officials across the country supports the ministerial conference. It's called the Intergovernmental Network on Canadian Francophonie. Mr. Cayen and I belong to it. Our counterpart from Saskatchewan, René Boudreau, represented the network as a whole at the steering committee on May 10.

    What emerged from that meeting? Is there anything the committee should know today in that regard to support the report it will soon be issuing?

    I've heard very positive comments on that meeting.

    I'm talking about concrete matters.

    I can't give you any specific details, but I'm sure Citizenship and Immigration Canada could.

    Ms. Drapeau-Miles, did you attend that meeting?

    No, but three individuals represented us there.

    Have you heard anything about what emerged from that meeting that should be included in our report?

    They talked about three essential priorities for this year. They're closely related to the activities I talked about earlier: reinforcing immigration networks in the provinces and territories, the economic integration of francophone immigrants and promotion and recruitment.

    Thank you very much.

    Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

    We'll continue with Mr. Généreux.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. I'll be speaking to Mr. Jourdain in particular.

    In your opinion, would it be appropriate for the minister of the Canadian francophonie to develop a national model respectful of the provincial jurisdictions, on the basis of which the provinces could build their francophone immigration programs? Could we consider that?

    From that model, for example, employment adaptability programs could be developed. That's like selecting the best aspects of everything that's being done in Canada. I imagine you do that within the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie. Could we see that in a more standardized way nationally, so that even more decisive results could be achieved?

    As I said earlier, one of the three legs on the stool is intergovernmental cooperation. It's one of the main objectives of the ministerial conference on the Canadian francophonie in this matter. The model you refer to is a tool that could tend in that direction. Obviously, the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie has not taken a position on this particular approach, but it would be consistent with the objectives we're pursuing.

    Has the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie already considered these things?

    We haven't considered them, no.

    That's fine.

    Are the plans, priorities and measures taken by the CMFC regarding francophone immigration in harmony with the strategic plan of the Citizenship and Immigration Canada—Francophone Minority Communities Steering Committee launched in 2006?

    Yes. As I indicated in my remarks a little earlier, we support the general orientations of the strategic plan that was announced by the federal government in 2006. We consider it an invaluable tool. We are ready to work in that direction.

    That's fine.

    Ms. Drapeau-Miles, New Brunswick has an extremely rich francophone history, since the province is already officially bilingual. As a result of the history of Acadian society, you are ahead of all the other Canadian provinces with regard to the francophonie.

    When you travel outside the country to promote New Brunswick, is that history an advantage for New Brunswick? We heard that, when the representatives of the provinces promote their provinces outside the country, there is some friendly competition. Representatives are all seated at the same table to recruit potential francophone immigrants. I imagine New Brunswick has an advantage, to a certain degree. Does having such a rich francophone history give you a significant advantage?

    I'm going to answer you, but then I'll hand over to Mario.

    Naturally, the Congrès mondial acadien is the ideal platform for showcasing the wealth of New Brunswick's culture. Even anglophones can't believe it. Quite often, people from the province would like to have an exchange in the province in order to share that cultural wealth. It's so easy to talk about Acadian culture and to sell it by travelling in Canada.

    I'm going to give you an example. I attended the Olympic Games and it was very easy to talk about my culture. What I say is very personal.

    With regard to promotion and recruitment, I'll let Mario talk about Acadia's image in other countries.

    Acadia is quite well known in France and Belgium. However, it is less well known outside those countries. People realize the advantage New Brunswick has in being bilingual. In virtually all francophone countries, people have basic English courses at school, but they never had the opportunity to speak the language in everyday life. When they come to New Brunswick, they are convinced they will learn both languages while living and working in French.

    In France, I would say that we draw the interest of those who aren't familiar with Acadia, and they do a little research. They often come and see.

    Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

    Mr. Godin, it was your birthday yesterday. Go ahead, please.

    Some voices: Oh, oh!

    It happens.

    A voice: That's why he was late.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: No, I was at the French embassy, and I'm wasting speaking time.

    Earlier a question was asked about the targets in New Brunswick. What are the targets? The $10 million isn't intended for anglophone immigration. It's included in the Roadmap for French. The idea is to attract French immigrants to New Brunswick. What are the targets?

    I talked about that in my address.

    Let's talk about it again.

    I'm going to repeat it. The objective is to maintain the province's linguistic balance. That the province's statement.

    All right. That means that, if francophones form one-third of the population in New Brunswick, the target is to maintain that representation.

    We're still talking about the province's linguistic balance.

    What is that balance?

    Mr. Richard Nadeau: Fifty-fifty.

    Mr. Mario Boisvert: It's roughly a third.

    In our strategy, we're not talking about one-third as a figure; we're talking about maintaining the linguistic balance.

    All right, but that can be defined. It isn't simply tossed out like that. We want to maintain the balance. What is the balance? We're talking about targets. When the government gives out money, it asks what the goal is, what the targets are, what that amount is going to be used for.

    We're talking about the linguistic balance in the representation of immigrants as well.

    Mr. Boisvert, you're saying it's a third. Is that correct?

    I haven't consulted the census. I don't have the exact figure, but it's about that.

    All right. Are you taking Manitoba as an example? Nova Scotia is.

    We share a lot of the best practices in Canada. On Tuesday, we talked a lot about cooperation among the provinces. Manitoba has set a target of 7%. I don't think Nova Scotia has determined the target or a comparable percentage, to my knowledge.

    We also share our best practices in another forum, not only on immigration in general, but also on the francophonie. That's the Atlantic round table on population growth, where the four Atlantic provinces share information. We also take recruitment initiatives together.

    With regard to recruitment, we know that Quebec has offices in other francophone countries. New Brunswick doesn't have any. What kind of assistance are you receiving from the federal government to communicate with those countries so that you are in a position to receive francophone immigrants in New Brunswick? I'm sure Quebec's offices—I don't want to offend anyone—don't work to attract immigrants to New Brunswick or Manitoba. What kind of support are you receiving from the federal government? Perhaps the federal government figures that Quebec handles French in foreign countries. What kind of support are you receiving from the federal government in foreign countries to attract immigrants and to enable those countries to communicate with New Brunswick?

    Mr. Boisvert, do you want to talk about Destination Canada?

    Yes. Citizenship and Immigration Canada established a committee to support the promotion and marketing of the Canadian provinces in Paris in I don't know what year.

    That's being done in Paris, but not across Europe. Earlier you talked about France.

    Yes. The embassy in Paris nevertheless works with others, including those in Tunisia and Morocco. So that's one kind of network. The assistance that the federal government gives us isn't necessarily financial, apart from the $10 million already received, but, in the case of Destination Canada, the federal government will cover all the costs to organize that activity to which we are invited.

    I was talking to the vice-president of Air Canada. He travels around the world and he told me it was unfortunate that no one talks about New Brunswick or the Acadians anywhere except in Paris. He told me that Acadia receives no promotion elsewhere in the world, in other countries.

    Acadia and New Brunswick are starting to be known. We've only been doing any regular promotion for eight years. That's only a few years. We're just starting. People elsewhere have only recently realized that there are francophones across Canada.

    Perfect. Thank you very much, Mr. Boisvert and Mr. Godin.

    We'll begin our third round with Mr. Bélanger.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Ladies and gentlemen, first of all, I apologize for being late. I had another meeting. I haven't yet mastered the art of dividing myself in two, but I'm working on it.

    Mr. Jourdain, I want to go back to the conference's role. You have a meeting in Yellowknife in June, I believe. I assume the agenda is already established.

    Yes.

    Can you tell us whether immigration is one of the topics for discussion?

    Yes, it's one of the important topics we'll be addressing.

    Do you know whether the conference might adopt the idea of encouraging its members to set an objective like the one in Manitoba? I moreover congratulate you because I know you took part in it. You mentioned this morning that we're talking about an objective of 7%. This week, the representative of the Government of Nova Scotia appeared here and she said there was no objective and that, if there was one, it would be approximately 4%. I encouraged her to aim higher. The federal government has an objective: it's temporarily 1.9%, and it's aiming for 4.2% or 4.4% by 2020 or 2023, which is clearly insufficient, in my opinion.

    Is this something the conference could seriously consider?

    First, I want to point out that the conference, that is to say the elected members, the ministers, has never considered the specific question of targets or objectives. However, that's definitely something that could be brought to its attention. There could be a discussion, a debate—

    Are you committing to that, Mr. Jourdain?

    Yes, I can make that commitment this morning. We will bring that to the attention of conference members.

    Excellent. I'm not asking for anything more.

    Mr. Cayen, do you think that's possible in Ontario?

    I can't speak on behalf of our Ministry of Civic Affairs and Immigration, but it's no doubt something Ontario would approve if it were brought to the conference's attention.

    Mr. Cayen, If I understand correctly, you are at Ontario's office of Francophone Affairs.

    That's correct.

    So you have a right of review over what goes on at the ministry.

    We have a right of influence over the other departments, and for the board, this is an interesting notion to discuss with our Ministry of Civic Affairs and Immigration.

    Are you telling me you're committing to that as well?

    I haven't made a firm commitment.

    Are you prepared to do so? Are you prepared to discuss it?

    Yes, I would be prepared to discuss it with my colleagues at Civic Affairs and Immigration, who moreover do a lot of things. The department has created an advisory committee on francophone immigration. So our ministry is making efforts.

    I'll come back to you in a minute, if I have any time.

    Ms. Drapeau-Miles, I listened to your exchanges with my colleagues this morning and, if I understood correctly, we're talking about a target of one-third or of maintaining the balance. Does that translate into a specifically determined objective in a ministerial document, a government statement or some kind of administrative memorandum? Has that been made in writing somewhere?

    You're asking me whether there's some sort of figure?

    No, I'm talking about the balance that's been mentioned.

    Yes, that's in our population growth strategy.

    Is there a figure somewhere?

    I'll have to inquire.

    Are you committing to inserting a figure somewhere?

    I can't make a commitment for the government.

    Hon. Mauril Bélanger: Give it a try.

    Ms. Monique Drapeau-Miles: I can do the follow-up and determine whether such a figure is in a specific document and I can send the answer to the clerk. I can make a commitment in that respect.

    We'll await the result of your efforts.

    I'll come back to Ontario, Mr. Cayen, with your permission.

    How much time do I have left, Mr. Chairman?

    You have 30 seconds left.

    If you're willing—and you aren't obliged to answer me, Mr. Cayen, because I'll probably use all 30 seconds—I would be curious to know the Ontario government's intentions with regard to the efforts it wants to make on intake and integration across the province. I'm not just interested in the east, but also in the north, in the slightly more rural regions and, of course, in the major metropolitan area of Toronto. I think that would help us enormously in our work, which, if possible, we want to complete next month.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Thank you, Mr. Bélanger.

    We'll move on with Ms. Glover.

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to all our witnesses who are here this morning.

    Mr. Jourdain, something surprised me when you made your presentation. So I'd like to go back over those important remarks to determine what you were talking about. You said that the statements in your presentation did not reflect the position of the Government of Alberta.

    I'll try to provide some clarification. In my oral remarks, I used slightly different wording. It's important that I repeat it. I said that this morning we were representing the provinces and territories, with the exception of Alberta, which has refrained from taking a position on this matter in the present circumstances. I'll explain to you why Alberta has refrained from giving its point of view.

    Alberta has a general policy that its government does not appear before federal parliamentary committees. I won't give you all the background to the matter, but it's a general policy. Consequently, as a result of that general policy, the Alberta government has decided not to associate with the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie for the purpose of this morning's appearance. However, that does not mean that it is opposed to the remarks we make or that it does not adopt our position. It is simply not taking a position either for or against.

    You also mentioned that the same is true for Quebec. It's doing the same thing as Alberta. Could you explain Quebec's viewpoint so that I can completely understand the situation?

    The Government of Quebec has the same general policy of not appearing before federal parliamentary committees, but it nevertheless agreed to associate with the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie for this morning's appearance.

    So these are two provinces that have similar policies, but that have come to different conclusions.

    Thank you for the clarification.

    Ms. Drapeau-Miles, I'd like to talk about your reception committee. Back home in Manitoba, we have a francophone hospitality service which is able to receive and welcome francophone immigrants at the airport and follow them until they are more properly integrated.

    How does your reception committee work? Do you welcome francophone immigrants at the airport, and where do you go from there?

    Are you talking specifically about francophone immigrants who arrive in New Brunswick?

    Exactly.

    In New Brunswick, that varies from place to place. For example, in the greater Moncton area, there is an agency, the Centre d'accueil des immigrants et immigrantes de Moncton, which right off the bat will go and meet newcomers at the airport and follow them until they are integrated. Their services are enhanced by another agency in the region, AMGM. So it depends on the region you're talking about.

    Our goal is to ensure that there is a common thread across the province, that there is a similarity among services even in the north and mainly rural areas. That's our intake objective.

    Our assumption is that people come looking for work but will stay depending on the community's reception. The immigrant resource centre has a social component.

    Naturally, we hope to adopt the best practices of Saint-Boniface, but the idea is also to ensure economic integration. So these two components should be combined in the communities within a community network. We don't want to replace existing services, but we do want to enhance them.

    With regard to Mr. Godin's question, the Roadmap definitely talks about federal government support. You're the only province receiving $10 million for francophone recruitment and immigration. That's really extraordinary support, isn't it?

    Yes, and we definitely thank the federal government for it. We take the expectations seriously. Naturally, all the other provinces are watching us closely. So we want to be very strategic in the infrastructure we establish. We also have to think about how we can keep these services over the next three years.

    May I interrupt you? I lost a few seconds as a result of the exchange between Monique Guay and Mr. Nadeau.

    You hired two people to go to other countries. From what countries do the largest number of francophone immigrants come to you?

    From Quebec.

    That's not a country; it's in Canada.

    It's currently France.

    And in second place?

    I would dare say Belgium or Romania.

    Thank you very much, Ms. Glover.

    We'll now go to Mr. Nadeau.

    Ms. Glover, I apologize for what happened earlier.

    I am very pleased to see by friend Royal Galipeau proudly wearing the jersey of Marcel Bonin, I assume. I've never seem him play, but I'm sure it brings back nice memories for Mr. Galipeau.

    That said, I would like to talk about retention. Among the people who arrive in your respective provinces, are many on their way to Quebec, to another province or to the United States—which would be surprising, even though we occasionally see that in the case of anglophone immigration? First, perhaps it should be determined whether it's hard to retain new Canadian francophone immigrants and if so, the nature of that challenge.

    I told you earlier that all our efforts began recently, that is to say they go back to 2002-2003. Before we established any infrastructure, there was fairly significant interprovincial migration. Francophone immigrants came and settled in Manitoba. For various reasons, among other things, if they didn't feel comfortable there, they went elsewhere in Canada. Now that we're receiving them properly, establishing infrastructure and making an integration effort, the retention percentage is increasing sharply.

    Having lived in Saskatchewan, I know that a lot of fransaskois or francophones left for Saint-Boniface or Saint-Jean Campus, in Alberta, to study French there. Some went to Quebec. Another focal point was British Columbia. I assume the fact that the province has francophone post-secondary education is a big help.

    I don't know the technical aspects, but I do know there has been a more relaxed attitude on the part of Citizenship and Immigration Canada. People who have a student authorization can then quite easily obtain a work permit and stay in the country, which was not the case five or six years ago.

    Are there any particular things to report in this area in Ontario, Mr. Cayen?

    To my knowledge, there's no retention problem. A lot of effort is being made. However, integration may be one of our biggest challenges. Earlier you mentioned access to French-language schools. In Ontario, there are admissions committees as a result of the issue of rights holders, which is related to section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Ontario is making a planned effort to integrate francophone immigrants in francophone schools. There are 12 francophone school boards in Ontario, and each of them has its own admissions committee. These admissions committees are governed by policies of our Ministry of Education. Their deliberate aim is to encourage these school boards to admit immigrants from francophone immigrant families.

    So the schools play an important role. What about working in French in Manitoba, New Brunswick and Ontario? I know we're talking about a majority anglophone world here, but I'd like to know what you can do about jobs.

    In our communities, one of the important observation is that people can live in French in the francophone community, but knowledge of English is absolutely essential for work purposes. People therefore have to become bilingual if they aren't so already. At the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface, for example, we offer English second-language courses to immigrants, specifically to enable them to have easier access to the job market.

    In Ontario, it depends on the regions. Working in French in Toronto is very rare. You absolutely have to be bilingual, to know English. It's easier in the regions in eastern Canada and in the northeast, as you are no doubt aware. So it depends on the region.

    What about New Brunswick?

    My answer would be similar. Mr. Godin is aware of that. We can function in French in certain regions. However, if you work in the private sector and your customers are American, even if you live on the Peninsula—

    People also have to be able to get a job. I assume that's important for retention purposes.

    One of the settlement objectives of these regional resource centres—

    I'm going to finish, and that will provide food for thought, because I know my time is running out. I'm talking about the credentials issue. We know this is a provincial jurisdiction. The federal government has some responsibility, particularly with regard to doctors. There are pressures. Where do we stand on that subject? We mustn't have any more doctors driving taxis than there are doctors in hospitals. Have any measures been developed in that area?

    I thought you were going to wrap up, Mr. Nadeau.

    This would be worth it; I would only take a minute, Mr. Chairman. I know you'll grant me that.

    I'll give you some of my time.

    Mr. Richard Nadeau: That's kind.

    I know there is a federal agency that deals with the recognition of foreign credentials. We're looking at that issue in Manitoba, in particular. There is an enormous, colossal job to be done.

    Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

    I'm going to continue using my speaking time. I have two questions for the representatives from New Brunswick on the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie.

    Ms. Drapeau-Miles, can you tell me how many immigrants there were in total in New Brunswick in 2008 or 2009?

    Do you want me to send you the exact statistics?

    I would like you to do that.

    In addition, is it possible to know the percentage of francophone immigrants? You mentioned an objective, which was approximately one-third. Where do you stand in relation to your objective?

    Based on the 2006 census, approximately 12.5% of newcomers are francophone.

    That's fine.

    I expect that has increased since then.

    That's fine.

    I'm going to put the same question to the representatives of the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie. Do you compile data on francophone immigration? This really seems to be a new field of interest. The appeal of French Canada was mentioned. Have you started to look at this matter in a systematic way, to compile data on the subject, as a pan-Canadian grouping?

    The Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie doesn't compile data on that subject. However, I believe Citizenship and Immigration Canada does. It would be relatively easy to obtain figures.

    Do you compile any other data on the vitality of the francophone communities? Are you conducting any analyses?

    I can talk about Ontario. We're conducting demographic analyses on the Franco-Ontarian population. In the fall, we'll be publishing some detailed demographic profiles. There will be four of them. We also published one in December on the Ontarian francophonie as a while. We'll have four sectoral profiles, including one on franophone immigration to Ontario. So we'll have the data in the fall. We're doing this work with Statistics Canada.

    Thank you.

    That completes our three rounds. Some committee members may perhaps wish to speak.

    Ms. Glover, go ahead, please.

    I simply wanted to say that Mr. Weston wanted to speak.

    We can proceed with a fourth round if certain committee members so wish. First we'll ensure that all members can question the witnesses.

    Pardon me, but if this is a fourth round—

    Mr. Chairman, I see that Mr. Bélanger probably has the same concern as I do. I don't think we should convene the steering committee when we receive witnesses. I spoke with the chair before the sitting. That won't be done. I want to hear the witnesses as well. Our study has already been quite shortened. That's why I spoke with the chair. I completely agree with you, Mr. Bélanger, that we should hear the witnesses.

    We can discuss this in the steering committee. For the moment, we will continue with a fourth round and we won't shorten our discussions. I believe I have the committee's consent to proceed with a fourth round.

    Mr. Bélanger, do you want to start the fourth round?

    If we have a fourth round, there's no problem in that, but I have a question for you, Mr. Chairman. When do you intend to hold the steering committee meeting?

    Following today's meeting.

    That poses a problem.

    Another round takes us to about 10:45 a.m.

    There are only 10 minutes left till 10:45.

    Then it will be at 10:50.

    We have rules and we try to follow them. If we do a full round, it will be a full round.

    In fact, Mr. Bélanger, we can do a full round if committee members so wish. I believe some committee members would like to speak and have not had the opportunity to question the witnesses.

    Mr. Chairman, I respect the fact that members may wish to speak, but I believe we initially established a procedural rule that we should comply with, didn't we?

    Absolutely.

    If we begin a fourth round, we're going to do it. So there won't be any steering committee meeting. I'm sorry, but I have something else on my schedule at 11:15. So I won't be able to stay.

    All right, let's go for the fourth round.

    We'll start with Mr. Weston. Mr. Weston, go ahead, please.

    I want to thank our witnesses for being here today.

    A lot of parliamentarians come here intending to build a cathedral in a country like Canada, and from time to time, as in any job, it seems to me we only manage to move bricks from one place to another. I believe the same is true in all fields.

    Mr. Jourdain, you informed us that there was a conference or meeting in my home town, Vancouver. It was a short, simple sentence, but when you said it, it seemed to me it was a big deal. It was just before the Olympic and Paralympic Games, one year before the start of the G8 and G20 meetings here in Canada. One century from now, when everyone sees that Canada has top-level liberties in the world, economic leadership, peace and stability, I believe that, in your work, you'll be able to consider building a cathedral.

    If we let you dream a little for the next 50 years, what is your vision for the Canada that relies on the freedoms, economy and bilingualism that we have here in Canada? What is your vision or your dream of a Canada where we can increase the vitality of the official languages in Quebec, New Brunswick and British Columbia?

    I'll try to answer your question from an immigration perspective.

    What I see personally, and I also believe I'm speaking on behalf of the conference, is that francophone immigration is breathing new impetus into our francophone minority communities. So this is an opportunity to renew ourselves and to ensure the survival of the French fact across the country. This reinforces the linguistic duality aspect that is a fundamental value in Canada.

    From an immigration and integration standpoint, in my vision and that of New Brunswick, I believe that, whether it be tomorrow or in 20 years, we will be living in a society where we celebrate our differences, our cultural wealth and our diversity. Everybody will be able to take part in that celebration.

    Thank you. Nothing more to add?

    Then thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Weston.

    Mr. Bélanger, does someone from your party wish to speak?

    Thank you.

    One aspect of the immigration issue in the official language communities has not really been explored here, and that's the language training offered to newcomers. I think that will prove to be very important and complex. I would like to hear the comments of our witnesses on that subject. The evidence we've heard to date clearly indicates that francophone newcomers want to integrate but also want to learn English. However, most of our programs aren't designed to respond to that. In some case, francophone newcomers want to take language training in French and English, which isn't really in our field, from what I know about language training programs.

    Is this an issue that the Ministerial Conference on the Canadian Francophonie has considered, Mr. Jourdain?

    No, it hasn't considered this issue in particular. However, I would like to briefly describe the situation of refugees from francophone countries. As you know, many refugees come from former French colonies in Africa. These are often people with little education who, even though they come from francophone countries, don't speak French. So they have to be offered language training in French, and they need training in English in order to succeed in the labour market. So we're talking about dual language training. The needs are enormous.

    Based on your experience, is that how you operate in Manitoba?

    Yes.

    Who pays the cost?

    For training in English as a second language, there is federal funding from Citizenship and Immigration Canada. As for French training, I couldn't give you an answer. I don't know whether it's provincial or federal funding.

    Funding from the Government of Canada is used to provide francophone immigrants with training in English. Is that what you're telling me?

    The goal is to enable them to give them easier access to the labour market.

    Even if they need language training in French?

    As I said, it's dual training.

    But it isn't paid for by the Canadian government in the case—

    I can send you the answer in writing concerning French training. I don't have it at this time.

    Can you tell me about Ontario, Mr. Cayen?

    I don't have that information. I know that language training is offered in French and in English in Ontario, but I don't have the details on the amounts invested and so on.

    Could you send us information on that subject? Would that be too much to ask you?

    Mr. Boisvert, do you have any information on that subject?

    I could send you figures or specific information, but the fact remains that it varies from one community to the next in New Brunswick. Some need training in French, and others need training in English.

    Does the $10 million that the Government of New Brunswick has received from ACOA include funding for language training?

    Yes.

    Is it in English or in French?

    Under the agreement, it's in accordance with the needs of the community.

    Who determines that: the community or the Government of New Brunswick?

    It's the resource centre. We also have to ensure that the $10 million is used to complement not replace the funding we receive from Citizenship and Immigration Canada. The language training offered is paid for by CIC. I can send you specific information on that point.

    Yes, I would like that, but I'm going to continue exploring the matter in the time I have left. I've tried to obtain information through a question on the Order Paper. However, reference was made to amounts, although the exact amount intended for language training in English and French respectively was not given. This leaves us utterly confused. This information is of some utility, but it isn't what we're trying to find out. I may come back to this later, when witnesses from the Government of Canada appear. What I want to know is what percentage of the funding is allocated to the language training in French offered to francophone immigrants. These cases seem quite rare. If I'm right, recommendations may have to follow. If I'm not right, I would like to know.

    Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the witnesses for volunteering to send us that information. We'll await it with interest.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Bélanger.

    Mr. Godin, go ahead, please.

    Ultimately, what more do you need to support francophone immigration in New Brunswick and elsewhere in Canada?

    A professor from the University of Ottawa said that francophone immigration started in Moncton and ended in Sault-Sainte-Marie. He forgot there is a beautiful francophone culture in Saint-Boniface and British Columbia, as we can see. Now all the francophones from back home are going to Alberta to get work. I don't think a lot of immigrants would come to Caraquet since everyone has to go to Alberta to get work. It doesn't stop in Sault-Sainte-Marie, as some believe.

    Ultimately, what more would you need to increase immigration and help the provinces, Ms. Drapeau-Miles?

    Can my colleagues start answering? I'll come back to it later.

    This is a big question, isn't it?

    Yes, it's a big question.

    I believe that, in the next few years, within two or three years, we'll be able to take a closer look at needs, priorities and so on.

    There was the Action Plan for Official Languages. Now there's the Roadmap for Canada's Linguistic Duality. We very much hope there will be a third, similar plan. Under a new plan, I believe immigration will have to be a central theme. There should be funding attached to it.

    Ffunding is important, but what could the government do to promote francophone immigration?

    There's a family in my region you've perhaps heard about, the Ledieu family. These are immigrants who came as a result of the promotion done for the Province of New Brunswick. They said they might be sent back to France and that their children would not be able to go to school there. Is there any cooperation between the federal and provincial governments to assist families in this kind of situation? This case went on for a number of months, and I had to get involved in it. It was a case from Moncton.

    I'm going to repeat myself. We've just obtained funding to try to improve the situation. I believe we could give you a much clearer answer in six to eight months. We're prepared to create new services. If, in six months, you tell me the situation is still disastrous, I'll be very concerned.

    My vision is based on cooperation between the community, the provincial government and federal government. I believe there is a will, but we have to know how to ensure that we improve what exists to eliminate—

    If I understand correctly, you're doing exploratory work with them to try to establish standards.

    That's correct. We've received a lot of support from the federal government. Now we're prepared to put these programs into effect. In six months, I believe I'll be in a much better position to answer that question.

    Mario, do you want to answer it?

    I'd just like to add that the phenomenon of francophone immigration back home is very recent. We're still in the early stages; we're learning.

    I agree with you. It's true. We remember when the SAANB and a lot of people said we would be better off starting to attract immigrants in our home province. I agree with you; there is work to do.

    We're working with partners. We aren't perfect, but we're really trying. The SAANB sits on our advisory council on population growth. There are a lot of other members, like the Conseil économique du Nouveau-Brunswick and the Association francophone des municipalités du Nouveau-Brunswick. We have strong partners in New Brunswick on the francophone side. There's also the Fédération des jeunes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick, but we still have work to do.

    You asked what the needs are for the next 10 years. Give me six months and I think I can give you a much clearer answer, Mr. Chairman.

    In the meantime, the government could go international and say that Acadia exists.

    Thank you.

    Thank you, Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Nadeau, do you want to add something?

    Yes. Going back to the very first question, earlier we were talking about assimilation and linguistic erosion, which are issues you rightly mentioned in your documents. I want to go back to what I previously said when I was talking about retention and you talked about the integration of newcomers.

    This may be more of a comment than a question because you aren't decision-makers, but you're definitely thinkers. You're also practitioners in the field.

    I think the entire dilemma is that we're inviting francophones to come and live in francophone minority regions while telling them that they will be living their lives in English. This is the entire Canadian dilemma in this area when you move away from Quebec, from Acadia in the northeast and the Ontario region bordering on Quebec. There's this whole difficulty. The message we send them is twofold and contradictory. We tell them that they are francophones and so much the better, but that they'll have to learn English because, otherwise, they won't be able to live in those regions and won't necessarily have jobs.

    I'm aware of the fact that, for example, when we talk about the republic of Madawaska, of Caraquet, the part of the region of eastern Ontario that is closer to Montreal than to Ottawa, since demographics have also changed in that region, the French fact can exist. Perhaps you can have a little job in Hawksbury or Ste-Anne-de-Prescott if you don't speak French, but I'm not sure you get have a job if you don't speak English in Ottawa or even Orleans, which is one of the 11 amalgamated cities in Ottawa today.

    I don't know how you do your promotion, but the contradiction definitely persists. You're telling francophones to come to Canada, that we're happy to have them in our communities, that they can speak French in their homes, but without forgetting that they have to learn English if they want to survive.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: It's like in the Supreme Court.

    Mr. Richard Nadeau: I submit that to you. If you have anything to say on that, I'd like to hear it.

    The entire immigration file has been adopted by the ministerial conference as a national priority. This is a will that was stated in the report entitled, Canadian Francophonie: Issues, Challenges and Future Directions, of which you spoke a while ago. It was reaffirmed at the conference in Vancouver last September.

    That said, we're telling immigrants that they can come and settle in our francophone communities if they want, because there is a significant degree of vitality there. They'll be able to live in French, send their children to French-language school and take part in community activities in French. However, knowledge of English is essential in the labour market. That doesn't prevent French from being very useful in the everyday life of those people or in their professional activities.

    I want to tell my fellow member from British Columbia that I'm sorry for the Canucks. My heart doesn't bleed.

    Thank you very much, Mr. Nadeau.

    That concludes our meeting this morning. I thank the witnesses who have travelled from east and west to come and meet with us.

    We'll now close our meeting. I need to see members of the steering committee briefly once we've said goodbye to the witnesses. Thank you.

    The meeting is adjourned.