AANR Committee Meeting

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Meeting No. 62

Wednesday, April 9, 2003

The Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources met at 3:30 p.m. this day, in Room 362, East Block, the Chair, Raymond Bonin, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Gérard Binet, Raymond Bonin, David Chatters, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Maurice Vellacott.

Acting Members present: Albina Guarnieri for John Godfrey, Derek Lee for Benoît Serré, John Finlay for Benoît Serré.

In attendance: From the Committees Branch: Susan Baldwin, Jeffrey LeBlanc, Legislative Clerks.

In attendance: From the Library of Parliament: Mary Hurley, Analyst.

Witnesses: From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development: Warren Johnson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Trust Services; Andrew Beynon, General Counsel; Paul Salembier, Senior Counsel; Gilles Rochon, Director General, Community Development Branch.

Pursuant to its Order of Reference of Monday, October 7, 2002, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-7, An Act respecting leadership selection, administration and accountability of Indian bands, and to make related amendments to other Acts (See Minutes of Proceedings, Monday, January 27, 2003, Meeting No. 14).

The Committee proceeded to Clause-by-Clause consideration of the Bill.

Pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), consideration of Clause 1 is postponed.

By unanimous consent, Clause 2 was allowed to stand.

On Clause 3

Yvan Loubier moved --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 3, be amended by replacing lines 23 and 24 on page 3 with the following:

“ity, while providing administrative and technical support to assist bands or first nations with their development and implementation.”

At 3:34 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 3:36 p.m., the sitting resumed.

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Albina Guarnieri, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, Derek Lee, David Chatters (9)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 3, be amended by adding after line 24 on page 3 the following:

“(2) Nothing in this Act shall be construed as defining the nature or scope of any right to self-government or as fulfilling the obligations and commitments of the Government of Canada in relation to the negotiation and recognition of self-government agreements. For greater certainty, neither a code adopted by a band pursuant to section 4 nor regulations made under section 32 shall be construed as defining the nature or scope of a right to self-government or as relieving the Government of Canada of its obligations and commitments in relation to the negotiation and recognition of self-government agreements.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: David Chatters, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Albina Guarnieri, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Julian Reed, Derek Lee (7)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 3, be amended by adding after line 24 on page 3 the following:

“(d) to reduce the frequency and nature of departmental and ministerial intrusion into the governance and administrative decisions of First Nations”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (3)

NAYS : Gérard Binet, Stan Dromisky, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, David Chatters (7)

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 3, be amended by adding after line 24 on page 3 the following:

“ABORIGINAL RIGHTS

3.1 For greater certainty, nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.”

It was agreed, by a show of hands – That the speaking time allotted to Pat Martin on the amendment be extended by ten (10) minutes.

YEAS: 5

NAYS: 3

On motion of Pat Martin, it was agreed – That Pat Martin’s speaking time on this amendment be extended by an additional ten (10) minutes and that he be allowed to share his time.

By unanimous consent, the motion on the amendment was allowed to stand.

Debate resumed on the motion of David Chatters, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 3, be amended by adding after line 14 on page 3 the following:

“(a.1) to enable bands to achieve independence in the management of their affairs,
which entails independence from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
and from other umbrella organizations such as tribal councils;”

Charles Hubbard moved – That the amendment be further amended by deleting all of the words after “their affairs” and adding the following:

    “(a.2) to reduce the degree of involvement by the Minister in band affairs”

At 6:38 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

At 7:02 p.m., the sitting resumed.

Debate resumed on the sub-amendment of Charles Hubbard.

The question being put on the sub-amendment, it was agreed to.

The question being put on the amendment, as amended, it was agreed to.

By unanimous consent, debate resumed on the motion of Pat Martin, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 3, be amended by adding after line 24 on page 3 the following:

“ABORIGINAL RIGHTS

3.1 For greater certainty, nothing in this Act shall be construed so as to abrogate or derogate from any existing aboriginal or treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.”

The question being put on the motion, it was agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, carried.

On Clause 4

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 4, be amended by replacing lines 25 and 26 on page 3 with the following:

“4. (1) The council of a band may, at any time before the implementation of a self-government agreement with the Government of Canada, propose any”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 2

NAYS: 7

Pat Martin moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 4, be amended by replacing lines 1 to 7 on page 4 with the following:

“(2) A proposed code is adopted if

(a) it is approved in accordance with an adoption procedure negotiated and agreed to between the band and the Minister; or

(b) in the absence of an agreement referred to in paragraph (a), it is approved in accordance with an adoption procedure agreed to by a majority of eligible voters of the band, if those who vote to approve it constitute more than twenty-five percent of all eligible voters.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 2

NAYS: 8

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 4, be amended by replacing line 7 on page 4 with the following:

“fifty per cent of all eligible voters.”

By unanimous consent, the motion was allowed to stand.

Maurice Vellacott moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 4, be amended by adding after line 7 on page 4 the following:

“(2.1) A proposed code shall not be adopted unless it has been made available to all band members and residents of the reserve for at least 15 days before the vote is conducted.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was agreed to by a show of hands:

YEAS: 6

NAYS: 3

Debate resumed on the motion of Maurice Vellacott, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 4, be amended by replacing line 7 on page 4 with the following:

“fifty per cent of all eligible voters.”

David Chatters moved – That the motion be further amended by deleting the words “fifty per cent” and by substituting the following therefor:

   “thirty per cent”

The question being put on the sub-amendment, it was negatived.

The question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by the following recorded division:

YEAS: David Chatters, Maurice Vellacott (2)

NAYS: Gérard Binet, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, John Finlay, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (8)

Yvan Loubier moved, --

That Bill C-7, in Clause 4, be amended by adding a subsection (4) the following:

“(4) Adoptions of leadership selection, administration of government or financial management and accountability codes as set out in this and related sections:
(a) are interim measures pending the fulfillment by Canada of its commitment to negotiate and implement self-government arrangements with aboriginal peoples;
(b) in no way diminish the Government of Canada’s commitment to negotiate and implement self-government arrangements.”

After debate, the question being put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands.

YEAS: 2

NAYS: 9

Clause 4, as amended, carried on the following recorded division:

YEAS: Gérard Binet, Charles Hubbard, Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Anita Neville, Julian Reed, John Finlay (6)

NAYS: David Chatters, Maurice Vellacott, Yvan Loubier, Pat Martin (4)

David Chatters moved – That the Committee now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was agreed to by a show of hands.

YEAS: 9

NAYS: 1

At 9:22 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Elizabeth B. Kingston

Clerk of the Committee