SINS Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE STUDY OF SPORT IN CANADA OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

SOUS-COMITÉ SUR L'ÉTUDE DU SPORT AU CANADA DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, May 13, 1998

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[English]

The Chairman (Mr. Dennis J. Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.)): I am going to bring the meeting to order, and I want to begin by saying welcome to everyone.

Madame Tremblay is usually here on time, so something must have happened to her, but I believe she said she was sending one of her staff, and the Conservatives were.

Okay. Who will begin? Mr. Filippone. Okay, sir, I will let you take the floor, and for the record, you can introduce the people who are with you and their positions. We will probably hear both briefs and then we'll go to questions and answers. Is that fair?

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Mr. Nick Filippone (Vice-President, Canadian Soccer Association): That's fine.

The Chairman: Okay, terrific.

Mr. Nick Filippone: With me I have the president of the Ontario Soccer Association, Mr. Ed Grenda; secretary general of the Canadian Soccer Association, Mr. Kevan Pipe; and the secretary general of the Ontario Soccer Association, Brian Avey.

Mr. Ed Grenda (President, Ontario Soccer Association): And Joyce Stewart, president of the Eastern Ontario District Soccer Association.

Mr. Nick Filippone: Good afternoon, and thank you for granting me the privilege of appearing before you.

My name is Nick Filippone. I'm the vice-president of the Canadian Soccer Association and I work for the Royal Bank. Let me assure you that I'm not here to request your support for the proposed bank merger—

The Chairman: That's a good thing, because you've come to the wrong place. You've got the wrong members.

Mr. Nick Filippone: —but rather, to recap the salient points of the proposal the Canadian Soccer Association has submitted to you.

First of all, let me express our pride in being Canada's number one participation sport. Our close to 700,000 registered members generate financial benefits of over $ 200 million per year to the Canadian economy. This amount includes direct expenditures by the game's governing bodies as well as operational expenses by the clubs and by individuals. The recipients of these economic advantages span a variety of industries. It includes mainly sports equipment suppliers, but also the transportation, food and beverage, accommodation and entertainment sectors. This injection of funds greatly helps the economy of our country.

[Translation]

Soccer is the most organized sport in the world. At the head of our structure is FIFA, the federation governing our sport at the world level and to which all participants belong.

At the second level are the six continental confederations with direct jurisdiction over more than 200 national associations. Our association is part of CONCACAF. We govern, promote and organize all soccer activities in Canada. My colleague from the Ontario association will give you an overview of the provincial and regional operation after my presentation.

Our association is directly involved in the operation of six national teams, six development teams and 12 national championships. These competitions bring together more than 160 teams of different ages and both genders, and they take place throughout the country.

We work closely with our professional teams to advance their cause. We have only four professional teams in Canada and like our national teams, they do not receive the necessary support.

Our association recognizes that our two greatest challenges in the future are first to increase the number of professional clubs and second, to attract more fans to the games played by these clubs as well as those played by our national teams. It is a vicious circle. We do not have the financial means to set up the necessary programs to improve our product and we are unable to improve our product without greater investment.

We are working very hard to improve the situation but we need both moral and financial assistance.

[English]

During the last ten years we have discovered the importance of television for marketing our sport. We are committed to promoting our sport through this medium. This method provides exposure and visibility for our teams and athletes throughout the entire world. Television stations have recognized that soccer is more and more a key and viable commodity.

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Canada's most known athletes worldwide are our soccer players who play on the European teams. The only reason for this is the exposure they receive through television. Canada must increase television coverage of our sport.

Another obstacle that must be surmounted is the lack of decent facilities in this country for both our indoor and outdoor game. Grassroots programs are being curtailed because of these shortcomings. Holding of international matches for our men's World Cup team is restricted to Varsity Stadium in Toronto or Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton. This simply does not allow us to properly promote the team and create the interest necessary to increase our fan support. This issue cannot remain unattended.

[Translation]

Every four years, the most popular event in the world, with the exception of the Olympic Games, is the World Soccer Cup. This competition attracts more than 4 million fans to the different games, the television broadcasts are watched by billions of people and it generates billions of dollars' worth of financial spinoffs for the groups involved. Our association is giving some thought to applying for the World Cup in the year 2010. In order to be chosen we must demonstrate that we do possess the necessary infrastructure. In Canada we have what it needs except for the appropriate stadiums. We might have the necessary number of stadiums but major renovation work would have to be done for them to be big enough.

If we were to obtain the event, the entire country could benefit. A limited amount of expenditure would enable us to generate enormous spinoffs. We are very much interested in this possibility.

[English]

It has been a pleasure, on behalf of our close to 700,000 registered members, to make this presentation to this committee.

Before concluding, our association would like to make the following important recommendations:

(1) that the Government of Canada recognize the importance and intricacies of our sport and re-establish funding at the level enjoyed in the late 1980s;

(2) that the Government of Canada recognize the diversity, unique multicultural aspect, and gender equity of the most-played sport in this country, because all things considered, soccer should undoubtedly be ranked amongst the top 5 of the 36 recognized sports;

(3) that the Government of Canada strongly encourage our state-owned television networks to increase their coverage of this nation's soccer teams;

(4) that the Government of Canada, in conjunction with provincial and municipal governments, undertake an immediate and elaborate program to improve and increase the number of facilities, which will encourage growth at the grassroots level and allow this country to stage high-level and profitable international events; and

(5) that the Government of Canada establish a subcommittee to study the feasibility of joining the Canadian Soccer Association and the private sector in submitting a serious and timely bid to host the World Cup in 2010.

[Translation]

Thank you for your attention. We are looking forward to the result of your examination.

[English]

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Filippone.

Mr. Kevan Pipe (Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Soccer Association): There is a second presentation on soccer, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman: Fair enough.

Mr. Ed Grenda: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I first want to make sure you have copies of our presentation in front of you.

The Chairman: Yes, we do.

Mr. Ed Grenda: I'll be following that general format. If you could bear with me, my points are very short, and I'll present them as they are presented on paper.

Once again, I would like to thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to present our views in connection with the industry of sport in Canada, particularly soccer, and in particular how it applies to the province of Ontario.

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I would like to point out that I do have with me—and I think they were introduced to you before by our executive director—Ms. Joyce Stewart, president of the Eastern Ontario District Soccer Association, which encompasses an area focusing on Ottawa and surrounding regions in eastern Ontario. It is one of our largest districts in the province of Ontario. I'll elaborate as we proceed just what the significance of these districts is in our operation.

The Ontario Soccer Association represents over 42% of Canada's soccer population, benefiting directly from Canada's soccer success. The Ontario Soccer Association projects over 275,000 registered outdoor players in 1998 and approximately 50,000 indoor players, the latter being one of the fastest growing segments in solidifying soccer's position as a year-round sport.

It's rather interesting to mention in this connection that the indoor game perhaps will be one where Canada can develop a significant international niche. It's rather interesting as well to notice that the winter season is perhaps our longest season, extending for seven months, in comparison to the outdoor season, which has a span of approximately five to six months, generally speaking, particularly throughout the province. It's different on the west coast, where it is a year-round outdoor sport.

With regard to the membership, the Ontario Soccer Association's membership can be translated into names and addresses. I think this is very important. When we mention these figures we are not in any way estimating or guessing as to how many people we have involved. Each one of these figures represents a name and an address. So this is not just speculation or conjecture on our part. That's very important to realize. There's a tendency sometimes to make general estimates in this regard.

Our computerized registration system, right down to the clubs level, encompasses approximately 336,000 members. They're made up as follows: players, 275,000; administrators, close to 40,000; coaches, 16,000; and referees, 5,000.

With regard to the mission statement of the Ontario Soccer Association, it is as follows. It is to provide an opportunity for any person to play organized soccer and to assist participants in reaching their potential through the provision of progress for developing players, coaches, referees, and administrators in the province of Ontario. The key phrase there is “any person”. This was tested and developed by an overhaul of our infrastructure several years ago, which was developed to foster mini-soccer, a scaled-down version for the younger ages, and allowing for more contact with the ball. Mini-soccer now, in our area, represents one-third of our player base, which is quite substantial.

Gender equity.... The Ontario Soccer Association prides itself on providing programs and services to both genders. The Ontario Soccer Association extends the Ontario club championship to all ages for both boys and girls, men and women, in addition to the OSA's high-performance program, which has teams representing it on a provincial level both on the male and female side. This feeds Canada's national program, which services both genders. In total, the female segment of the game represents close to 31% of the total membership of the Ontario Soccer Association.

We come to the area of multiculturalism. As the world game, the sport of soccer has served as the premier introductory activity in Canada for breaking down ethnic barriers and enhancing wide participation in the sport. In the eyes of many, the game is the sport of choice insofar as we promote multiculturalism in Canada. I might point out that for many immigrant groups who come to Canada, particularly in the Toronto area, their initial introduction to Canadian society is through soccer. There are numerous leagues: the Central American league, the Hispanic league, the Goan league. There are all sorts of leagues of this nature operating in the Toronto area. It's a multicultural smorgasbord, if I may phrase it in that fashion. I think it is an interesting way of developing and bringing people into the general context of Canadian society.

With regard to soccer equipment, our membership of over 336,000 spend close to $ 71 million annually on immediate equipment needs just to participate in the sport. That will refer to cleats, shin guards, and what have you. Those are essentially types of equipment that are required. It's quite substantial when one looks at the figures.

With regard to travel, travel to and from practice sessions and games in Ontario tops 4.5 billion kilometres annually, excluding tournaments, a major economic activity of itself. Many of the soccer tournaments that are held throughout the province draw large numbers of people to various cities throughout the province. Not only that, it adds to the tourism dollar for that particular city's coffers. Throughout the summer there are hundreds of these tournaments taking place. They constitute a major tourism dollar for the cities that are directly involved.

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Gasoline: We take this factor into consideration because it does add something quite significant to the general ledger. The level of travel equates to approximately $ 110 million in gasoline expenditures annually, which I think is quite significant and is something that bears taking into consideration.

Snack foods and drink: In any given year, taking into consideration consumption around practices and games only, Ontarians spend over $ 20 million on snacks and drinks.

These are other factors. These are derivative spin-off factors relating to tourism, but I think they are quite significant in terms of how they add to our general economy.

Indoor soccer facilities: As I indicated earlier, and I'd just like to add in parentheses here, this is one of the fastest growing areas of our sport. The Ontario Soccer Association opened its own $ 11.5 million facility in the city of Vaughan on November 1, 1997, and there are 16 smaller-type facilities in Ontario, many more in the consultant stages. Using Ontario's economic impact model for sport events and games developed by the former Ontario Minister of Tourism and Recreation, it is estimated that these indoor facilities will generate over $ 81.4 million over the next 10 years in net federal returns, not to mention over $ 114.8 million in municipal and provincial returns. This is quite a significant economic impact of the sport to the province and to the country as a whole.

Now I come to the area of infrastructure. The Ontario Soccer Association has 20 branch offices staffed and fully computerized, and over 225 community clubs, many of their offices staffed and fully computerized. I should point out that Ontario has divided its province into 20 district branches. There are some large districts—for example, Peel-Halton, in which there are close to 34,000 players registered, which is more than some provinces have registered alone. Even the Eastern Ontario District Soccer Association has close to 22,000 players registered. So these are quite significant blocks of registered athletes in the province, and they do contribute quite measurably to the economic and socio-cultural elements of those particular areas of their province.

With regard to outdoor stadiums, Varsity Stadium is the only what we consider “international stadium” in Ontario with grass. It's currently undergoing rezoning for developmental purposes. Ontario's position as the largest soccer province will be somewhat compromised with the future loss of Varsity Stadium when it comes to staging international games, and these are major economic activities themselves. Hopefully these matters could be re-addressed with plans to hold or stage various international tournaments and the proposed Olympic Games bid and perhaps some other tournaments that will be held within a relatively short time.

World Cup 2010: The Ontario Soccer Association hosted the world under-17 soccer championships in 1987. This event, I might point out, is still regarded as the single most exciting youth and soccer event staged in Ontario in quite some time. Toronto's initiative to present a bid to host the 2008 Olympic Games will appropriately pave the way for Canada's bid to host a 2010 World Cup. The Ontario Soccer Association has been working with its various partners, various cities in the immediate Toronto area and various private developers to see whether we can rectify something in that connection, particularly with regard to stadiums.

That generally concludes what I have to say in connection with the impact of soccer, in particular in one of the Canadian Soccer Association's larger provinces. We do think it's a significant impact, and I do think these are factors that are worth bearing in mind. I thank you for your attention in this particular regard.

I would like to ask my colleague Ms. Joyce Stewart to perhaps add a few words in connection with how soccer affects her area.

Ms. Joyce Stewart (President, Eastern Ontario District Soccer Association): Mr. Chair, I wish to take this opportunity as the local district soccer administrator.

Ed would be pleased to know that our numbers have actually jumped from 22,000 to 28,000 participants in Ottawa-Carleton and the eastern part of the province of Ontario, which includes children from the ages of four right up to those that consider themselves still avid players at the age of 65. So we cover a broad spectrum of age, and of course the gender as well, in the sense that 37% of our membership are females.

I would like to acknowledge my appreciation to the members of this committee for the leadership they have shown in demonstrating their commitment to moving this organization forward as far as industry and sport in Canada. I'm confident that the final outcome will meet the objectives you have established.

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My colleagues on the national and the provincial bodies have provided you with a lot of statistical information. My presence here today is just to address any questions or concerns you would have on a local, grassroots level.

I really don't think I could bring any more value to the table at this time, so I will stop the conversation at this point.

The Chairman: Thank you very much.

Before we do questions on soccer, we'll now hear from our other national sport. Is it a joint national sport? How is it classified?

Mr. Michael Lachapelle (General Manager, Canadian Lacrosse Association): Well, lacrosse is Canada's national summer sport, while hockey is Canada's national winter sport.

The Chairman: Okay, fair enough. We've been describing it accurately.

Mr. Lachapelle.

Mr. Michael Lachapelle: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.

Allow me first of all to express my great appreciation for the opportunity to come and express the views of the lacrosse community. I am currently staffed with the association as the general manager. Joining me here at the table is Mr. William Hutton, who is the chairman of the board of the Canadian Lacrosse Association.

Both of us have been lifelong involvees in lacrosse. In addition to being a staff member of the association, I played from the age of seven through until now: I'm currently still playing at 45. I have experienced everything from professional playing down through the national team. I have, for a long time, taken the opportunity to express, at any opportunity I could, the views of lacrosse on the sport structure in Canada and the importance of sport to Canada.

In that way, I think we find that, again, lacrosse finds itself being somewhat of the square peg. We certainly recognize that one of the major focuses of this committee is the economic determinant of sport in this country and the economic impact of sport in this country. But we certainly perceive that the opportunity is here for this committee to make a much more extensive statement on the role and influence that sport has in our country.

The current document you have in front of you is lacrosse's fifth presentation on our perspective on the nature of sport in this country over the last ten years. We continue to hold very strongly to the importance of the grassroots community level of sport to the structure of sport in this country.

That being said, I would like to take a moment to express my congratulations to the soccer community. In looking at the overall structure of sport in this country, they represent probably the epitome of the sports organized through the communities. It reflects in their success and in the quality of their programs they deliver to the communities.

Here's what we would like to address. I won't get into a reiteration of what we have in our program. I'd like to just focus on the three areas that we talk about in the written presentation.

The first area was the relationship between the sport and culture. We have for a long time within the sport community accepted a very recognized role for sport as part of the culture of Canada. This has a tremendous impact at the community and local levels.

In our document, we cite one very specific anecdote, one very dramatic situation where sport has had an awe-inspiring effect on a community. For those who may not have had the opportunity to read the document prior to coming here, we're referring to the gambling wars that occurred on Akwesasne back in 1994. It was a community that was terribly torn apart by three factions that were fighting for political and financial control. We had divisions within families. It was a terrible situation.

The elders of the community decided that there was really only one way to break down these barriers. They forced the three communities—the traditionalists, gamblers, and warriors—to play lacrosse, to play a sport. To take the political arena out of their lives, they forced members of each of these communities to play on the same team in order to break down the barriers.

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This had a very dramatic effect on the community. The effect was that two years later, or actually it was the next year, a combined team of all of these community people went to British Columbia and won the national masters championship. The year after that, Akwesasne hosted our national championship.

It was an amazing opportunity to bring people from across the country to witness Iroquois traditions, many of whom had never been on native territory in their lives. It was a truly inspiring event. I think that it's a dramatic example of what sport can do to a community. I think that in talking in extremes, you see the true values.

In addition to the aspect of sport as part of our culture, I think another very important aspect is the culture of Canada in our sport. In previous papers we talked about the kinds of determinants of sport and what they were in this country. We kind of grouped them into four areas. First, there are economic determinants. Second, there are political determinants. Third, there are administrative and bureaucratic determinants, which generally can be embodied within Sport Canada's guidelines for the development of funding of sport in this country.

The fourth is the social determinant. We talked very much about the importance of the sport in our culture, and that's where we see it. We see sport as being part of the social determinant. The way we express the social value of sport is in how it raises children to be better citizens of this country and to be better people in total. We express that through our philosophical approach of having a strong mind, strong body, and strong spirit. We want kids to grow up with physically healthy bodies, active minds, and a strong set of morals and values.

Sport has a unique role within our culture. In fact, it takes and teaches all three of those things in one activity. That is an immensely important part of our culture.

Where does culture as part of sport come in? Well, if you look at the sport system in Canada, there are essentially five sports that have grown up in this country that have their roots in this country. Some date back 130 years, as in lacrosse and Canadian football. Other sports that are singularly Canadian in their history are ringette, Canadian football, as I mentioned, hockey, and surprisingly enough—I wasn't aware of this—five-pin bowling.

But what we've discovered over time is that as there has been a growing emphasis on high-performance sport and success internationally, we have found that one of the common characteristics of four of those five sports is that because of our singular Canadian nature we are excluded from the funding process in this country. Because the vast majority of evaluation for funding purposes in this country stems from your international success and your high-performance programs, the four Canadian sports of Canadian football, lacrosse, ringette, and five-pin bowling don't qualify under the sport-funding framework.

We raised this issue with the minister. She has taken what we think are very significant and very positive steps to address this issue of supporting Canadian culture. She created a pilot program called the domestic sport fund, which provided developmental funding for those sports to help ensure that we have resources to develop programs for the delivery of the sport across the country.

That pilot program has now run its course and is up for renewal. We urge the committee to lend its support to the minister to have this fund become an established part of the funding process in Canada. We feel that it's significant for the heritage department, which is responsible for sport, to also take the responsibility for preserving the culture of Canada within the sport system.

We also believe that this is fundamentally in line with government's established policy in the areas of broadcasting, publishing, and in the recording industry, where separate funds have been established to help support the Canadian initiative within the international environment. I think we're asking for essentially the same thing within the sport community.

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I'd like to move now to the second point we bring, and that is looking at the aspect of the balance between domestic and high-performance sport. Recently, with the Olympics, we've seen how much emphasis.... And I know that most of the discussions that have occurred at this committee have focused on the professional aspect of sport, in particular the economic impacts, the NHL and the issues of the balance, the level playing field, the professional teams....

The Chairman: Mr. Lachapelle, could I just interrupt you for a second? Just so you understand, we accept all of the cultural sorts of components and contributions that sport, all sport, make to the community and the country, but this committee has a very tight focus, which is linking sport to the economy. When we talk about that, we need numbers, we need statistics. I know that is part of your presentation, but I want you to know that is the primary concern of this committee at this point in time.

And by the way, we're more interested in the numbers from the amateur realm than we are from the professional realm. We think there's a linkage between the two, but there are a number of us at this committee who have a passionate view that the amateur realm of all sport in this country is a very large contributor to the economic fabric of this country, and it's that part of your sport that we want to hear about.

Mr. Michael Lachapelle: Okay. Let me then move directly to the last point that we raised in our presentation, which was the economic impact of the grassroots level of sports. Certainly in Ontario one of the examples we cite is the overall impact of tournaments on small communities. In Ontario, in April through August last year, there were some 61 tournaments, which involved 230 teams travelling to mostly small communities like Arthur, Ontario, and Owen Sound, Ontario. This has a tremendous impact on those communities in terms of bringing some tourism dollars to them.

We don't have the numbers exactly available to us for the overall impact of this. From a national perspective, the Canadian Lacrosse Association runs seven national championships in our varied disciplines and levels. Last year that involved 470 athletes travelling across this country to communities. The hosting of those events included expenditures of over a quarter of a million dollars in very specific communities. We saw tremendous impacts in communities like Victoria, where the Mann Cup was a galvanizing event. It was a five-game series that sold out the arena every evening.

The numbers that we have also don't include.... There were some 38 teams that travelled. When we speak of a quarter of a million dollar impact of those national championships, we don't have the numbers available because of the structure of our sport and because the travel is not booked within our organization. But all those local teams had to travel and had to spend their dollars in hotels and on the airlines and all those others. I think that also has a tremendous impact.

Being the kind of sport we are, we find that we are not in large venues; we are in small venues. That is a significant impact of our sport as well.

The Chairman: Very good.

Before I go to questions I want to try and make a point. As you know, because there's a recess next week, there are a number of committees right now that are doing clause-by-clause, so we're short of members. But as we've all been listening and analysing over the past six months, we've been focused on these numbers because governments today are looking at economic impact ahead of social impact.

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I'm not saying I agree with that, but a number of us who are passionate about sport.... And that's why we put this committee together, because we see the number of people who have been excluded. We have to assist these organizations in designing an approach to government today, which is totally different from what it was 20 years ago. In other words, 20 years ago you could come to this city, and if you made a case for the social impact on the community or the country, you'd walk away with a cheque.

Today, social impact isn't what opens the door; it's economic impact. You have to show the economic impact, and if you can't show an economic impact you don't get very far. So we're hoping that eventually, as we complete our analysis and we get all of our surveys in, we can sensitize not just our other colleagues in Parliament, but some of the public servants who are down there operating the factories in the various departments, make them aware that sport is a big industry and we had better make sure we do the right things in order to maintain it and enhance it.

I wanted to give you that as background.

Mr. Cannis, you were going to go first?

Mr. John Cannis (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, all of you, to this committee. I don't know where to start, because there were so many wonderful points made.

Ed, the last time we met was at Esther Shiner Stadium last year. I'm sure you know I follow the pitches quite consistently, both indoor and outdoor.

You've made some great points. And it's not that I have a personal passion towards soccer; I love lacrosse going back to high school. As a matter of fact, I believe Ken Clark, a high school mate of mine, is still part of the association.

I'm going to go from one extreme to the other here, Mr. Chairman, because I know we have more time here today.

On the four or five points you made with respect to how we address the development of soccer.... I'm first witness as to the type of dollar that is spent as a parent and as a sponsor: when we go to tournaments, whether we book into motels, the gas we use, the foods we buy, there's no question about that; you're absolutely correct—the numbers are growing every year. I'm the first one to confirm that.

The area of the types of facilities concerns me. I'll start with that point.

Just this past weekend, actually, the high schools had a soccer tournament in various parts of the Greater Toronto area. I happened to be at a facility called Roywood, and I was shocked when I walked on the pitch. I used to play at Withrow, for example, and Stanley Park many years ago. I was shocked at the facilities, that the parks and recreation, or whoever is responsible, couldn't take some soil and fill in the holes that are there.

A week before that there was a young boy, playing on the under-14, who slipped and fell in one of those grooves. He had to go and have a four-hour operation and clips on his elbow. I wasn't there, but my wife was. I was just disgusted with that.

I'm not throwing the blame at you. I'm simply saying, because you were the direct contact with parks and recreation, that is something you have to get to those people. I don't think it takes a lot of money to fill in a pothole and what have you, or cut the grass maybe once during the season.

So when those facilities aren't there, I think the development of a potential national player really gets diminished.

With respect to the coverage, I agree with what you and Nick said. Unless it gets on the tube, it's not going anywhere. But how can it get on the tube?

Today, I can tell you, my children and many other youngsters watch the soccer programs from abroad with a passion, because they see quality games. And I say this constructively and with great sorrow, with the greatest of respect to the coaches who were there in the past; I'm not throwing the blame at anyone. Our brand of soccer is just not there.

So how could one be attracted to watching a game that we can't even beat? Jamaica is an example, and you know the teams we've competed against. Was it the stubbornness of the coach to make some changes?

Certainly other countries don't hesitate to drop the coach or replace the players, no matter how indebted they are. I think we failed miserably there.

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And Kevan, I think you and I have spoken on the phone in the past as well.

So how do we attract an audience? I think we have to upgrade our product. How do we upgrade our product?

I want guidance and maybe some suggestions from you, because you refer often to the grassroots, the community level, and we know—and you mentioned—some of the clubs are there in big numbers.

I want to ask about what programs are there for all this talent out there—and I see it first-hand with these people. Today I was speaking with Basketball Canada and the coaches today, right across the country, are holding camps in order to identify potential talent, and then having training camps, etc.

What programs or what methodology does the association use to identify potential players at the national and international levels? What types of training facilities are offered? I don't know very much about it, but I know there's a lot of talent out there that hasn't been accessed.

When we do bring these young men and women on.... And I've seen some great female soccer players. I hate losing them to United States colleges or universities. A lot of them are going down there and will maybe never return. How do we attract this talent? How do we identify this talent? What programs are available to enhance the development of these potential national team representatives?

Maybe I'll stop there, Mr. Chairman.

Voices: Oh, oh.

The Chairman: Those are all the questions—

Voices: Oh, oh.

Mr. Ed Grenda: I'd like to have the executive director of the Ontario Soccer Association elaborate on the programs that we have in this connection.

Mr. Brian Avey (Executive Director, Ontario Soccer Association): I'll try to answer the questions in the order in which they were asked.

As far as the brand of soccer, we won't get into that, because we'll be here all night, but I will refer to a couple of things that have taken place recently that are addressing that. One is that in Ontario we have addressed the fact that every community club should have a head coach. This has turned into a full-time position. The largest soccer club in Canada, Oakville, has 7,000 players. It now has a full-time coach who spends all of his time working with those 265 coaches in that club to make sure they can project the right leadership to those boys and girls.

In Ontario, we just last weekend approved a coaching philosophy, so that we actually have a style of play that we can say is ours. It is possession soccer. We have been advocating that style of play. And that's not to knock our national team performance. What it says is that there are some great and exciting players coming up, and you'll see some of those on Monday. But just to give you an example of how that possession soccer is now working, last year we sent our under-15 boys' team to Mexico. The year before, we sent the same team and they got demolished. Last year, they won three and tied one. And these are games against the professional reserve teams.

We just came back with our under-18 girls' team. They played four women's teams that had more than eight national team players playing. The margin was over five goals by our team in every game.

So I think we are correcting those issues and I think that in the very near future you will see the types of players that will take Canada to the World Cup on a consistent basis.

As far as U.S. college scholarships go, that's a difficult one to answer when it costs.... I have a daughter in university in western Canada and she's on a partial scholarship, so I'm already familiar with what's going on there.

The Chairman: A Canadian university?

Mr. Brian Avey: Yes, a Canadian university.

The Chairman: I didn't think we gave out scholarships for athletics in Canada.

Mr. John Cannis: It's a fine line.

Mr. Brian Avey: The problem, Mr. Chairman, is in Ontario. It's pretty hard to tell a young boy or girl who's been offered $ 25,000 a year for the next four years that his or her education is paid for when we can't in fact provide that same level of service. We don't have an answer for that one yet.

However, we are working with our professional clubs to encourage them to put trust funds together to at least keep boys and girls in Canadian universities and have their education covered. We have to work on that.

Mr. Ed Grenda: If I may, I'll just respond in part to some of the questions that you raised, Mr. Cannis, in connection with our player development program, particularly in Ontario. We do have an academy or a high performance program in which we do have top-notch coaches dealing with the players and identifying them. We do encourage our districts to identify players and submit their names to the office in Toronto. Of course, we further explore these possibilities as well.

• 1625

I should point out that the very fact we have a large number of players going to the U.S. indicates that we have a high development program in the sense of developing a large number of players. The very fact that they're travelling to the U.S.—because of the reasons that were spelled out with regard to the financial aspects—deals with that particular issue, I think. It's an unfortunate part of it, but as well, it's a fact of life. We have to live with it.

Plus, there are many players from Canada—and I can vouch only for Ontario at this particular point—who are travelling abroad and playing professional soccer at various levels in other countries. There are many players who we are sometimes unaware of who do this on their own hook. They travel over there and secure some type of arrangement or contract with a professional team.

Consequently, we are developing the players. When you're talking about the national team, that's another issue. There are other factors involved there.

With regard to soccer's lack of profile, the Ontario Soccer Association formed a task force entitled “The Image of the Game in Ontario”. We undertook research in this particular regard with respect to all the major media in Ontario in the larger, medium-sized and smaller cities. One of the interesting findings of this report was that soccer was considered to be a recreational game, not a significant sport, because it did not put enough people in the stands for any of the high-profile games or even for the professional games played in the area. This is a problem we've always had to deal with.

There is this element in which there are many people, particularly the more recent immigrants, who think that the game is not good enough compared to what they have experienced. I presume this would be the same thing as us going to another country in Europe and discovering that hockey is just not played quite the same as it is here.

All I'm saying is that those are the findings. And this is why the Ontario Soccer Association has undertaken ventures to actively promote the encouragement of professional soccer and to try to support it in various ways, and believe me, it's a very difficult process. We do have large numbers. When we have teams such as Germany or England playing here, we will get the crowds, but at the local level we just cannot just find those people to occupy those seats in the stands.

Joyce, do you have anything to say about the local level when you try to develop these high-performance programs?

Ms. Joyce Stewart: On the local level.... And you're very right, Mr. Cannis, in the sense of what kind of infrastructure is in place at the district level, where the clubs report to us. We encourage the club head coach concept. We also encourage them by way of verbalizing to ensure that the names of their players who have potential are brought forward. We provide an avenue for those players to be in a high-performance camp where they get the one-on-one.... They are actually given a skills test to show what they are missing and what their strengths are, and we have a follow-up program for that.

In addition to that, we have hired—and I know it's quite common in most districts across this country—technical directors, who can also take the experience they've amassed over the years and teach the coaches. Because we have a large number of grassroots, entry-level participants—your four-year-olds, your five-year-olds—there is talent, both in the coaching aspect and the player aspect. There are avenues, mechanisms and infrastructures in place to identify the players.

The next question is, what do we do with that player? I can only talk about Ottawa-Carleton in the sense that we then take that player and provide him or her with every opportunity, either by inviting our provincial people to come down or by sending the parents and the player down there. Again, it depends on your resources. Funding is an issue. We have to be very sensitive to the financial burden to the parents who are involved. In many cases they are single parents. We need to have a mechanism in order to be able to provide funding for that—

Mr. John Cannis: There's no subsidy for registration, if I'm not.... When I register my young boy or my daughter to play, they tell me it's going to cost me $ 200 to register, to get an outfit, etc. I don't believe there's any subsidy.

• 1630

Ms. Joyce Stewart: All clubs that I know of in my area provide a financial assistance program for every player who has problems.

Mr. John Cannis:

[Inaudible—Editor].

Ms. Joyce Stewart: It would not necessarily be advertised, but it is a rule of thumb. Going back to what our lacrosse people mentioned, it is important. You're developing the minds and the wellness of these children.

I don't know a coach who doesn't dig into their pocket and arrange for some child or player to be registered, and it's okay. When we get into the tournaments, we tap into other resources in the community, because it's all very community-focused in that sense. So it is perchance not a formalized process, but it is actually alive and well in the rank and file.

Mr. Kevan Pipe: I don't want to give you the impression that we're trying to over-answer your questions, but there are a couple of quick stats I want to throw out very quickly so you're aware of what we're trying to accomplish at the national level.

First of all, in terms of player development, with all due respect to hockey, figure skating, and tennis, we are in the world's game, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Nobody else comes close. On any given day, Brazil can be beaten by Bermuda and Bermuda can very easily be beaten by Brazil, as we all know.

Mr. John Cannis:

[Inaudible—Editor].

Mr. Kevan Pipe: I just want to reiterate that.

On an annual basis, the Canadian Soccer Association spends between $ 2 million and $ 3 million to develop and train athletes. That is—and your research staff can check this out—more than any other national sport association in Canada. Those moneys are raised principally through our 14 corporate sponsors; through international television rights—not Canadian television rights, but international television rights—and we receive annually anywhere between $ 600,000 and $ 800,000 from offshore for our TV rights; and also through gate receipts.

Yes, we are very dissatisfied with the number of people who come out to the stadium, because we only average between 7,000 and 10,000 per game. So we're drawing about the same as the Montreal Expos. Sorry; I'm from Montreal too.

On the other hand, no other national sport association in Canada comes close to putting the number of people in the stands that we do right now. On Monday we play the national team of Macedonia, and we'll probably get 6,000, 7,000, or 8,000 people, or maybe we'll even hit 10,000 if it's a nice day. We're not terribly happy with that, but still, in the national sports scene, tell me another sport that is consistently putting 10,000 people in the stands, on a regular basis.

And by the way, as Brian mentioned, please come out to the stadium on Monday. You will see 18 new players and a new coach to respond to the valid criticisms you did make.

What are we doing to try to improve the quality of our players? In terms of developing players, right now the Canadian Soccer Association has established, for example, in Vaughan, a network of five national training centres across Canada—we are opening our fifth in Halifax at the end of 1998—all staffed with new, full-time, permanent CSA head coaches. And we expect, if not by 1999, certainly in 2000, to in fact add a sixth and final training centre in Winnipeg, to give us a network from coast to coast.

The board of directors has received a paper that it's seriously considering right now about these centres actually competing in an under-23 age group league competition that the Canadian Soccer Association and its provincial members would own and operate. These players would compete in a national league owned and operated by our membership.

Is there interest in soccer?

Mr. John Cannis:

[Inaudible—Editor]...starting now in Toronto?

Mr. Kevan Pipe: No, no. This would be Vancouver, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal, and Halifax competing in a national under-23 league owned and operated by Canadian Soccer and its provincial associations, in order to bridge that gap between players playing at the amateur level and players trying to make it professionally, either in North America or in the world.

We have 40 to 50 players right now. If you go into Belgium and ask who is Canada's most internationally recognizable personality, it won't be, with all due respect, our Prime Minister or Wayne Gretzky or...maybe Alanis Morissette, okay?

The Chairman: Céline Dion.

Mr. Kevan Pipe: After Céline Dion it will be Tomasz Radzinski of Canada's national team, the second-highest goal-scorer. If you go to Portugal and ask who is Canada's most recognized personality—and this one will definitely beat Céline Dion—it's Alex Bunbury with FC Maritimo. If you go to England.... I heard on CBC Radio this morning a reception for some of Canada's most notable celebrities in London—Bryan Adams and a couple of other people. Where is Craig Forrest, starting goalkeeper for West Ham United? That would be like Martin Brodeur of the New Jersey Devils. That's the profile Craig Forrest has.

• 1635

In our own TV ratings, if you check with TSN, our TV ratings are amongst the top five sports on TSN, consistently.

The Chairman: Wow.

Mr. Kevan Pipe: And those are viewers per minute, not estimated audience reach. That's viewers per minute. Please check with TSN. They will verify those numbers.

We've already been approached by other networks in terms of our properties for years to come. Ironically enough, we haven't had contact with Canadian Broadcasting Corporation or Radio-Canada for five years. That strikes me as being funny. We see Radio-Canada bidding for properties that very clearly can stand on their own two feet—NHL, Olympic Games, major league baseball, and so on—and yet there are a lot of sports....

I grew up also playing lacrosse in Montreal. I would love to see lacrosse on TV. But we don't see it. Why isn't the CBC fulfilling that national mandate?

I hope I've taken a bit of a nationalistic perspective there too, but certainly in terms of soccer, you're absolutely right. We are responding to the justified criticism that was levelled against us last year in terms of our performance.

Ironically, we don't hear too many people talking about our game versus Mexico, when we came within one minute of defeating Mexico 2-1. Mexico is ranked 12th in the world.

One final comment—and our colleague, Phil Schlote, recognizes what I'm about to say—is that in the world of Sport Canada's ranking system, we could have qualified for World Cup this past year by beating United States; beating Mexico; going 10 wins, 0 losses, 0 ties, 0 draws; scoring 50 goals and having 0 goals against; going to the World Cup in France this year, which has a 35-billion cumulative audience, 3.5 billion for the final itself, and 25 million ticket requests for only 2.5 million tickets; beaten Brazil in our first game; tied England in our second game; lost to Nigeria 1-0 in our third game; finished in 17th spot out of 32; and be ranked as an absolute failure in the eyes of Sport Canada.

We could have also gone there, beaten Brazil, beaten England, beaten Nigeria, lost to Germany on penalty kicks and extra time, finished in 16th place in the World Cup, and still be ranked by Sport Canada as an absolute failure in their eyes because of the ranking system that is going on.

The top-funded sport in Canada gets a top-funded support level of $ 900,000. We are getting $ 420,000. If you add up the $ 900,000 that is going to take one of the sports that you'll see on your list—I don't want to identify one—then you will see tens of thousands of dollars of support per athlete, and in soccer we're lucky if we get a quarter.

The Chairman: Thanks, Ken.

We will now move on to Mr. Coderre and la solution Coderre.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.): Let me start off with a little story. Yesterday my daughter asked me: "Dad, who do you love more, me or Alexandre?". Alexandre is my son's name. I told her "I love both of you, but not in the same way."

I'd like to give you some advice: don't try to pit soccer against hockey or baseball. The last time they tried to do something like that in Montreal, it was with the Montreal Manic and the ended up losing. Saputo, with the Impact, showed that soccer can be popular and there are an increasing number of people going to the Claude-Robillard Centre. I am one of them. So I don't want to hear people claiming that one sport is better than another and that we should try to promote one to the detriment of the other. I think that would be serious mistake.

Montreal is a football city, a hockey city, a baseball city as well as a soccer city. At the present time, the problem is ensuring that soccer is also a sport for French-Canadians. We realize that this new sport was the contribution of several communities when they came, particularly the Italians, the Haitians, the Greeks and others. We learned to appreciate, just like a good Italian wine, this new sport called soccer. This also brought along professional sport, particularly in Montreal.

I agree with Radio-Canada broadcasting soccer matches, just as for lacrosse. It's something they already did in the days of the Fleur-de-Lys. I'm a former lacrosse player and I know Blanchard who used to play for the Fleur-de-Lys. He was one of my teachers. It's been a long time, as you can probably see, that I played lacrosse.

• 1640

I like Mr. Lachapelle's remark about the need for balance. I think this is how we have to look at these sport situations. We have to look at sports from the cultural side and even more as an industry. Whether it's soccer, baseball or hockey, it is the aspiration of a youngster who is starting out to earn his living one day by playing his sport. So far I haven't seen any proof of the contrary. In my opinion, if we kill professional sport, we also do harm to amateur sport. So we have to come up with some kind of balance.

Mr. Chairman, I recommend that we work very hard for Canada to host the World Cup. It's important and even essential because there will be millions of dollars in spinoffs and because we'll also demonstrate that sports is an industry with a very significant impact on the creation of jobs and both direct and indirect spending to boost our industry.

I'd like to ask some questions about lacrosse and then I'll go on to soccer.

You refer to several provinces but you do not talk about Quebec. Why?

[English]

Mr. Michael Lachapelle: In what aspect do you mean, talk about Quebec?

Mr. Denis Coderre: Well, it's not in it.

Mr. Michael Lachapelle: Oh, okay.

Quebec has actually, in certain aspects of our sport, been one of the most innovative. About 12 years ago, Quebec put together a task force to examine the state of lacrosse within the sport. At the time, in Quebec, it was an organization in turmoil. There was a great deal of concern over the violence in the sport, as there was with a number of other sports at the time. Monsieur Néron was involved with the lacrosse community at that time, and led a lot of the discussions about it.

As a direct outcome of that, Quebec began a program called inter-lacrosse, which completely created a new version of the game, which is—

Mr. Denis Coderre: Without violence.

Mr. Michael Lachapelle: Well, they did a very interesting thing. They took an approach to sport wherein rather than trying to define the game in terms of what you're not allowed to do, they created a whole sport that is based upon some very positive social values that they wanted to instil in the children. So they created a version called inter-lacrosse, which is a gymnasium version of the game, and that became their main focus. They now have some 350 schools across the province involved, and they have registrations in the range of 39,000, which makes them the largest lacrosse community in Canada.

With some of the things we didn't talk about, the reason we didn't bring them up here is that strangely enough, they are far ahead of everybody else in the country on that one program.

The inter-lacrosse sector of the sport, which we recognized in 1985 as a full discipline of the game, has not developed the same way in the rest of the country, which has mostly stayed focused on the more traditional forms of the game. It's only within the last five years that we're beginning to see real inroads in the rest of the country to match the kind of competitive structure Quebec has been so successful with.

But because of the nature of this disparity of competition, there are no national championships in the inter-lacrosse program. So what is their prime focus and what has been their biggest success is unique within our own sport. We're only beginning now to see a real development of a competitive stream in Quebec.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: It's another case of the unique society, Mr. Chairman.

There'll be a national tournament in Saskatchewan. I think I must have read something about it. Reference was made to the world inter-cross games. I'd like to know what your involvement is in those games. How do you organize them? When there is a world event for lacrosse, how is your association involved in the process of organizing such games?

[English]

Mr. Michael Lachapelle: The Saskatchewan Lacrosse Association is probably the second leading participant of inter-lacrosse in this country. Two years ago, Quebec hosted the world games for the inter-lacrosse.

• 1645

If I might step aside for just a moment, I would also provide another kudo to our Quebec associates, in that, having been successful inside their own province with the creation of this game, they took it internationally. They went to Europe and promoted inter-lacrosse and they now boast some 43 countries that have participants in inter-lacrosse, and some 17 that are full members of the International Inter-Lacrosse Federation. We also have to recognize it was by their direct intervention that this happened.

Two years ago Quebec hosted it. This past year, in 1997 at the international meetings, Saskatchewan approached the Canadian Lacrosse Association and the Quebec association, la Fédération de Lacrosse du Québec, and discussed the fact that it thought it would be good for the development of inter-lacrosse in its province to host the world games.

So in conjunction with the fédération, which sits as an independent member in the International Inter-Lacrosse Federation, it got together with the CLA and we worked out the details of how it could host and organize the games in Regina. We provided the sanction for it and supported its bid at the international level.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: The reason I'm asking this question is that every world event does have some importance as far as the economic spinoffs are concerned. To take a balanced perspective, as you mentioned at the outset—and I'll come back to soccer later—, every world or national event does have important spinoffs in the region where it takes place. Have you looked into the economic spinoffs of a major event such as the world inter-cross games in Saskatchewan? Do you have any idea? Have you done this kind of study?

[English]

Mr. Michael Lachapelle: No, we have not done an economic impact study at this time. This is the first international event Canada will be hosting in lacrosse since 1986, and it was not heralded as a large organized event. The event itself unfortunately doesn't compare with the International Lacrosse Federation, as the traditional forms of lacrosse tend to have a higher profile and a higher participation base. At this time we have not done a potential impact study.

[Translation]

Mr. Denis Coderre: Signor Filippone.

Mr. Nick Filippone: Yes, sir.

Mr. Denis Coderre: You know that from the very beginning we've received several representatives from the professional sports groups. Previously, we received those from amateur sports. We are also hearing from you. It would appear that as far as soccer is concerned, because of our relations with FIFA... You referred to the four national teams. Reference is made to assistance and support for the World Cup in the year 2010. This always brings up the debate about the need to develop facilities and stadiums. What is your personal opinion on the role of government in professional sports? Do you think that because of the economic spinoffs whose importance you underlined, it is worth making the effort and that governments should invest in facilities, not only to promote the sport, but also to take advantage of the economic spinoffs of a particular event and a particular sport?

Mr. Nick Filippone: To answer your question, I would say that any project must be evaluated by taking into account its ultimate result. In the case of the World Cup, once all the spending has been added up, for the construction or the upgrading of the stadiums and the putting into place of infrastructure, the net profit could easily amount to more than $ 5 million for the national association as well as the international association.

In my view, we just can't let something like the World Cup pass us by. There are different sorts of benefits, for example the dollars spent by tourists. When a country hosts the World Cup, it's not just Canadians who would be attending. There are people who come from everywhere and spend significant amounts of money.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I agree. As a matter of fact, what we've been attempting to demonstrate from the outset, the leitmotif of these discussions, is the fact that sports is an industry. This applies to all sports including soccer. If a government does not make investments, it must at least find the facilities that will help a particular sport survive and advance. In the case of certain events like the Olympics or the World Cup, a government must give very serious consideration to the situation because of the great spinoffs such events have not only for the city and the country but also because of their international scope.

• 1650

Mr. Nick Filippone: In addition, the facilities put in place for such an event remain in use for years and years and it is not possible to host other international-level events.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Still, I feel bound to point out that we are still stuck with the Olympic Stadium.

Mr. Nick Filippone: Yes.

Mr. Denis Coderre: But that's another kettle of fish.

Mr. Nick Filippone: Before you continue, I'd like to say something about a comment you made earlier on.

In Quebec in 1982 we had 35,000 registered players. Now we have more than 100,000. The majority of these 100,000 are French- Canadians. On the women's side, in particular, more than 75% are died-in-the-wool Quebeckers. So soccer has certainly undergone a great expansion among French-Canadians.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Watch out! I'm a Liberal federal member of Parliament. When I hear talk about died-in-the-wool Quebeckers, I can't help reacting.

Mr. Nick Filippone: I was saying...

Mr. Denis Coderre: I am a French-Canadian.

Mr. Nick Filippone: That's fine.

Mr. Denis Coderre: It's important to emphasize because there is this question of how things are perceived.

Mr. Nick Filippone: I understand.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I think we would agree in saying that soccer was not necessarily a national sport. We see that it has expanded and developed with events such as the Manic, even at the amateur level. It is one of the outstanding contributions made by the cultural communities who have helped us appreciate it more. That's why I go to the games so often. I go to see the Impact win.

Now I don't know whether you are also in a position to help us. I am one of those who suggested the tax agreement for professional sports teams because of the problems existing between American and Canadian cities. Impact won its first match 3 to 1 against Atlanta. That leads me to wonder there are the same kinds of problems in the world of professional soccer. In your opinion, is there unfair competition? Are there particular tax problems if we compare Canadian and American cities?

Mr. Nick Filippone: In the case of the Impact team in particular, I would say no. We don't have that particular problem. But Impact would certainly like to receive some financial assistance, I have no doubt about that. If we ever had a team in the major US league, I imagine that the problem would be the same in soccer as for other sports.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Is there any wage ceiling for players?

Mr. Nick Filippone: At what level?

Mr. Denis Coderre: For players. Isn't there a rise in wages?

Mr. Nick Filippone: No, not as far as I know, the American league does have a set budget that it cannot exceed. Even in the case of Impact, we have a set budget and we cannot go over it. There are several teams who do not reach this level. There is significant room for manoeuvre for each team.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I see. Have you made any representations to Radio-Canada and CBC? What was their response to the broadcasting of matches, for example?

Mr. Kevan Pipe: No, because at the present time we do gave an exclusive contract with TSN and the Réseau des sports, but we did have some contact with Radio-Canada and CBC a few years ago. After our qualification matches in 1988, it was the last to have been broadcast by CBC. The reason for the Radio-Canada decision is purely financial. At the time there was no soccer budget in Radio- Canada.

Mr. Denis Coderre: They didn't have enough money to cover the games?

Mr. Kevan Pipe: Yes.

Mr. Denis Coderre: That's exactly what we want.

Mr. Kevan Pipe: That's the way it was in Radio-Canada at the time.

Mr. Denis Coderre: One last question, Mr. Chairman. Let's assume that we are investing in professional sports and we establish a partnership with the professional sports teams, and we decide to conclude this tax agreement. If there were more government involvement, either for taxes or directly, with professional sports teams, would you be favourable to them making a commitment to invest more in amateur sport?

• 1655

I think I know what your answer will be because you are already greatly involved. Do you think that this should be one of the committee's recommendations?

Mr. Nick Filippone: If we take a look at the existing structures in the world and see where there's been the most progress made in sport, it is always where there is a club structure. In these clubs, professional teams are responsible for the development of several teams ranging from reserve teams to minor teams.

Even at the present time in our professional teams we see that Impact is directly involved either with the Canadian federation or the Quebec federation in promoting soccer. We've already started to do this, even if we cannot afford to put specific programs into place. At least all the partners share the same intention, that is to develop sports and to help professional teams. It costs Impact a lot less to get a player from Quebec, Ontario or British Columbia than go look for one in Brazil.

Mr. Denis Coderre: In conclusion, next Tuesday I'll be in Paris where I'll be meeting people from the department of sports. I'll be talking about soccer because there is the World Cup. I'll be doing other studies for the committee and I'll be very happy to say that soccer is in good health in Canada and that the government should be doing more. Thank you.

[English]

Mr. Nick Filiponne: Thanks.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Coderre.

I'd like to push this World Cup 2010 a little bit. Do you have an organizing committee in place?

Mr. Kevan Pipe: Our colleague here just mentioned France '98, which is next week. You have to be at the World Cup to appreciate the size of it. It is more watched than the Summer Olympic Games. It is a huge single event.

The decision for the 2006 World Cup will be made in 2000. There are four countries now going after it, including England, Germany, South Africa and Brazil. The hot front-runners are England and Germany. There's a strong bid that the World Cup return to Europe after it is in Japan and Korea in 2002. If it ultimately is awarded to Europe, then our chances for 2010 skyrocket.

If FIFA decides that the 2006 World Cup goes to Africa or to Brazil in South America, almost certainly the 2010 World Cup will go back to Europe. There's just too much money, too much interest, too much pressure on FIFA not to go back, to wait 12 years, or 16 years, potentially, to return to Europe.

We are internally monitoring the situation. The board of directors of the Canadian Soccer Association, which contains, by the way, the president of every provincial and territorial and professional soccer association in Canada, is monitoring the situation, and in fact will be making that decision once FIFA ultimately makes their decision for 2006.

The Chairman: You're telling me nothing can be done until...?

Mr. Kevan Pipe: In 2000, the four-year race for 2010 begins, because the decision for 2010 will be made in 2004.

So we're into a bit of a holding pattern right now, and we're trying to determine some interest among stadium operators across Canada, among this committee, among our provincial associations, to determine internally what is the potential level of interest.

The Chairman: Mr. Coderre and I think the Prime Minister will be in Paris next week. I don't understand why we wouldn't take advantage of a moment like that to express that we had your association in front of our committee. I mean, why wouldn't we press some nerve?

Mr. Kevan Pipe: Please do so, yes. There is no hesitation whatsoever on that.

• 1700

The Chairman: I think we should formally mandate you, Mr. Coderre, to sort of make an impression there next week when you're at the World Cup.

Mr. Nick Filippone: It certainly doesn't hurt to get started.

The Chairman: Right. Let them know we're keen.

Mr. Kevan Pipe: I understand the Government of Canada is setting up a millennium committee.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Kevan Pipe: We already have placed in front of the group, you might say, some concepts with regard to getting that ball rolling for the 2004 decision bid for 2010. We've already placed some ideas in front of that millennium committee that can bring world attention to Canada in terms of an international sporting event that has a great ability to not only involve the entire country in celebrating the new millennium through soccer, but also bring considerable financial gain to the country, to our association, to all partners involved. So we look forward to possibly working together with the millennium committee in that regard.

The Chairman: I have a short question, and then, unless you have any other questions, we'll adjourn.

Mr. Lachapelle, what network is supporting lacrosse in Canada today? We're discovering and through these hearings we hear a lot of good things about TSN, and we're hearing that CBC English sport is really not stepping up to the plate as much as they should. What has your experience been?

Mr. Michael Lachapelle: The only broadcasting support we have seen over the last two years has been Rogers Cable, who have broadcast into the local community and at the provincial level, and have even begun negotiations with us in terms of looking at the possibility of national championships being broadcast across Rogers Cable.

When the issue of their application for a second programming station was up, we had many discussions with TSN about being a key part of their regional broadcasting. That obviously did not progress any further from there.

We had initial talks with CTV when they had their application forward as well, but that hasn't progressed any further.

So the bottom-line answer is that the broadcasting support we have received in this country has come from Rogers Cable.

The Chairman: Fair enough.

Mr. Hutton.

Mr. William Hutton (Chairman of the Board, Canadian Lacrosse Association): Further to that, one of the problems we do have is we have a format for a national championship that is best out of seven. They wanted us to change to a one-game shoot-out, and we declined.

The Chairman: Sure. Amazing.

John, did you have a question?

Mr. John Cannis: I'd like to comment on the World Cup, and then I want to touch upon something that Joyce said earlier that I think is very significant.

They talked about the World Cup when it was held in the U.S., that it was not going to come off well in such a large country from one end to the other. We all know the success story. I don't think the size of our country should be used as a negative. If anything, economically speaking, it will have a tremendously positive impact on our country as a whole.

I want to pick up on what Joyce talked about, the community and the grassroots and organizations, and what impact it has on an individual young person, helping them to become good citizens, and on sports in general.

One of the greatest experiences I had was a number of years ago when I was in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, at the under-15 championships. That weekend there were tournaments in every different province, with different age groups. I was with the Olympic Flame at that time. The relationships, the bridging that took place that weekend with people from Quebec, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, and Ontario was phenomenal. I agree with you, and I want to highlight that, and if there's something we can do.... What occurs through these organizations is developing good citizenship and keeping the fabric of this country together to be even stronger.

I want to ask, in closing, is the Vaughan facility you talked about run by the organization, or is it run privately? There are other facilities, like Clarelee, as you know, Ed, where everybody pays to enter a team for the winter season, and so on.

Is the facility now available to clubs to go and participate? Do they pay a fee? If they do pay a fee, where does that fee go? Does it go back into the organization, to the development of the athletes, or the sport in general?

• 1705

Mr. Ed Grenda: Yes. The clubs, districts, and leagues operate out of the facility. In point of fact it's open to any sport organization. The fees paid for the use or the rental of the facility go back to the operation and to deal with the facility's expenses to be operated in that fashion for 12 hours a day.

I might point out that the Ontario Soccer Association has its offices there, and we are contemplating installing a soccer hall of fame and museum in that facility as well.

Mr. John Cannis: Is the hangar that's been put together associated with the league at all? There's this new facility called The Hangar.

Mr. Ed Grenda: Yes.

Mr. John Cannis: Is that part of it?

Mr. Ed Grenda: That's a private enterprise. It's completely private.

Mr. John Cannis: Okay.

The Chairman: I realize you have a plane to catch, and we're going to make sure you catch that plane.

I want to end by thanking all of you for coming before our committee. You are assisting us in building the case that the industry of sport is a dominant one in this country. You both have presence all across Canada, and soccer has an extraordinary presence in the community right now in the sense that you have massive numbers of people involved.

I would ask you—and I would say this humbly—to encourage your coaches and your organizers to make sure you sensitize fellow MPs, as we get close to our report, so they look at the recommendations closely. We are all affected by our constituents and the number of people who press our nerve. When I think of the power that especially the Canadian Soccer Association has, I wouldn't want all of the soccer associations in my community or my riding thinking that, as a member, I wasn't paying attention to what's important to the sport realm of this community and country.

So I would urge you to do that. We will pass on the information, but don't you be shy in passing on this information to other members of Parliament, because that will help us in our final deliberations.

Thank you all very much for coming here today.

The meeting is adjourned.