SINS Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE STUDY OF SPORT IN CANADA OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

SOUS-COMITÉ SUR L'ÉTUDE DU SPORT AU CANADA DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

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EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, October 29, 1998

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[Translation]

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre (Bourassa, Lib.)): I would like to welcome you to the Subcommittee on the Study of Sport in Canada.

We have with us today representatives from Sports-Québec, the only provincial federation to date to appear before this committee. A number of national federations have already come before us, but this provincial federation will be able to speak to us more specifically about what is going on in Quebec and about federal- provincial relations, including its relation with Sport Canada, especially since I understand that Mr. Ouellet is also president of the federation of provincial federations and that he is therefore wearing two hats today. With Mr. Ouellet is Mr. Claude Pelletier, Director General of Sports-Québec. I would like to welcome you to our committee and I now give you the floor.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet (President, Sports-Québec): Mr. Chairman, I would first like to thank you for allowing us to appear today and ;present the issues of greatest concern to us with respect to our Canadian government's policy on sport.

I will briefly describe Sports-Québec for you; it is a private, non-profit organization that represents 60 sports federations and representatives from regional leisure organizations and municipal, socio-economic and education agencies.

We represent 800,000 people who participate in a federated sport and are affiliated with a federation in Quebec; more than 60,000 people are involved as coaches and instructors.

We are here today because we were asked by the members of Sports-Québec at our annual meeting last May to speak to your subcommittee, chaired by Mr. Mills.

I will quickly give an overview of the situation that sport finds itself in. The implementation and the very existence of some of our programs is compromised or jeopardized by the new approaches taken by the government. There has been less and less public money pumped into sport for at least a decade; in conjunction with this disengagement by the State, private companies have increased their requirements with respect to their return on investment in sports. Sports organizations have to meet increasing demands and needs expressed by both grassroots participants and high-level athletes.

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I will briefly mention how sport is organized in Canada, including the aspect of government and political recognition. The nature of sport is recognized worldwide. It is unique because of its systemic structure, from the local to the international level. Because of this unique character, a number of countries have created a ministry or a corporate entity specifically for sport.

In Canada, placing the sport sector under Heritage Canada clearly represents a step back in relation to the previous model, where fitness and amateur sport had their own ministry. That gave sport real access to the decision-making level of government.

With the present structure, sport is a very minor sector of the department, in which national parks, Canadian symbols and the state broadcasting corporation are very much dominant.

The first recommendation of Sports-Québec is for the Canadian government to create a ministry of sport with its own minister and the administrative and financial tools needed to function. We will come back to this issue in more detail later, Mr. Chairman, if we may.

I will now deal with the structural links in organized sport. There is no real forum for those involved to work together on Canadian sport policy. Organized sports, at the local, provincial and national levels, count on the participation of volunteers within democratic structures. Unfortunately, the government of Canada is doing very little at present to encourage cross-linkages between the groups, as witnessed by the little financial support given and the lack of recognition and integration in consultative and decision-making structures.

For example, the Canadian Council of Provincial and Territorial Sport Federations, which I chair, has no channel for expressing its views, despite our representations to the minister and the department to change the situation.

Our second recommendation would be for the government of Canada to establish formal consultation and joint decision-making mechanisms with those involved in the sport system, with respect to both the setting of sport policy and the implementation of that policy.

In Canada, there is no comprehensive vision for sport. Everything is centred around the performing athlete and his immediate environment, and the other players, structures and resources that have brought him to that level are ignored. Little of substance is done for coaches, whose employment is not secure and whose salaries are out of step with today's realities. There's no attention paid to organizational structures. Moreover, the Coaching Association of Canada is in our view a closed organization without any democratic processes to enable people involved in various areas of sport to be represented and to express their views.

The approach of Sport Canada is to focus on supporting the best performance at the world level; it is therefore too narrow and shows, in our opinion, a complete lack of vision and leadership. I think that we need to go beyond our national policy, which provides assistance only to the 1 000 athletes identified as potential medal winners on the international scene. It is essential that those involved in sport today, who are the athletes of tomorrow, be covered by this policy. Provincial bodies also need to have their say on this policy.

The federal government is responsible for bringing athletes up to the standards required at the international level. At present, there is a total lack of connection between those developing this excellence and those who take over once the athlete has been identified, as well of a lack of support for competition networks where the athletes develop theirs skills. As a direct consequence, our sport system has an incredible gap, where many athletes who are on the verge of reaching international standards are not recognized and are, for all practical purposes, left out in the cold.

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In Quebec, we have suffered as public money has been withdrawn. Our brief demonstrates this and I will not reiterate the figures here. Funding cuts have also been evident in other parts of Canada and our brief gives you examples from Newfoundland, Saskatchewan and Ontario.

At the federal level, there have been cuts. We have not taken into account the $50 million that will be added over five years; instead, we have described the situation as it stood before this injection of new money. Beginning in 1993-94, funding was reduced by approximately 36%. Since only 1.57% of Heritage Canada's budget is earmarked for sport, you can imagine the relative importance given to sport. Funding for the national associations has also dropped; over the same period, it fell from $44 to $28 million. The number of organizations supported by Sport Canada decreased from 122 in 1992-93 to 83 in 1986-87.

This disengagement has had very serious consequences for the sport system in both Quebec and the rest of Canada. Provincial organizations have had to increase the contributions for their national associations; provincial federations and clubs are having to top up the income of Quebec athletes competing at the national and international levels. A number of national associations have closed their offices or cut their services, which increases the work load for provincial organizations.

This disengagement also results in very few ties between the various levels, and almost total lack of dialogue between the national and provincial ministers responsible for sports, and a decrease in investment; these difficulties are a source of concern. Most discussion takes place among bureaucrats. The federal pull-back has an influence on the provinces and there is really no longer a model for the recognition of the importance of sport in our society. There's a very clear domino effect. Leaving responsibility for designing the Canadian vision of sport entirely to officials indicates that there is an unacceptable political inertia and also deprives the major players in sport's development of the right they should have to express their views.

The sports facilities in Canada developed mainly as a result of major events, such as the Olympic Games, the Commonwealth Games, the PanAmerican Games, the Canada Games and the World University Games, and are located primarily in major urban centres. We will touch briefly on that issue here, but we would be pleased to come back to it if you wish.

In eastern Canada, however, there is a clear lack of high- quality facilities for international competitions in summer sports. No major injection of funding has taken place since the 1976 Olympic Games.

A number of cities in western Canada, including Calgary, Victoria, Winnipeg and Edmonton, have benefited or will benefit in a major way from spinoffs from Olympic Games, the 1994 Commonwealth Games, the PanAmerican Games that will take place in 1999 and the World University Games.

We therefore recommend that the government of Canada take its share of the responsibility for providing the necessary funds to upgrade and develop Canadian sport facilities.

Another part of our brief deals with the indirect benefits of the many aspects of sport. On the health front, although sport brings benefits, the situation overall is negative. I will give you a few of the main statistics here that you can read in the brief we submitted to you.

Canadians who have taken part in organized sports when they were in school have a stronger tendency to be active later in life. Between 1981 and 1995, a 16% increase in the number of Canadians who were physically active resulted in 9 billion dollars in savings for health care, health insurance, sick leave, time off work, disability benefits, etc. Young Canadians today are up to 40% less active than their peers 30 years ago. In Canada, from 1981 to 1988, the proportion of obese young people between the ages of 6 and 11 increased by 50%, and by 40% among those 12 to 17.

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Forty percent of children who are obese at the age of 7 and 70% of obese adolescents will continue to have a weight problem as adults and will suffer from the associated illnesses such as high- blood pressure and respiratory and orthopaedic problems.

These statistics are of concern for our society. It is imperative for us to develop a more effective approach to enhance the image among young people of taking part in physical and sports activities.

Governments should do a better job of balancing spending on prevention of health problems and on their cure. The benefits of physical activity are predictable and would lead to a decrease in overall costs while insuring a better quality of life.

There are many reasons why the government should be involved in sport. Sport is an instrument of social cohesion; it brings economic benefits; it has a positive impact on health and social behaviour; it brings people together and empowers them. We could also talk about national unity. Sport is an ideal meeting place for the young and the less young. It gives people an opportunity to get to know one another and acknowledge one another's presence better in our huge country. Sport also generates models for stimulation and emulation. I was saying earlier that the model being projected at present is rather negative and less and less significant. I said that because sport is being given less emphasis because funding for it is continually being cut.

Our fourth recommendation is for the government of Canada to invest more to raise awareness and promote participation in sport, especially among young people. Australia and England have set up programs to foster more sports activity and to lay the bases for a sport system in their countries.

I shall now deal with the economic impact. The socio-economic impact of participation in sports is manifest at three levels: the health benefits, that were briefly described a few minutes ago, the purchase of sports equipment and the creation of jobs in sports supervision. Participation in sports therefore creates jobs and requires the hiring of human resources to supervise participants in schools, municipalities, sports clubs, sports associations, etc.

A word of caution is necessary here: there is no genuine sports culture in Canada and we have to be cautious in making comparisons with the United States. We do not have the same culture; generally, we do not truly support local teams, a tradition that is deeply rooted in Europe and the United States.

With respect to the economic impact, this distinction between the Canadian and foreign models is particularly important in the area of spectator sports. It is obvious that professional sport has an impact on participation in sports. The broad media coverage that is evident in newspapers and on television, and the models that are created no doubt encourage a number of young people to play a sport.

However, a number of qualifications are necessary. Overriding salary issues, performance-enhancing drugs and violence give our youth mixed and questionable messages. Moreover, spectator sports make for passive spectators rivetted to their television sets or seated in stadiums downing drinks and chips. This is not quite the message that we are looking for with respect to physical activity and participation in sports.

In Canada, links between spectator sports and amateur sports are virtually non-existent. While professional hockey may draw many new players from the amateur system, it does not have much financial impact on that system. In our opinion, we should consider the possibility of a restructuring that would allow for better links between professional and amateur sport.

Our fifth recommendation is that government funds be allocated to support sectors that have a beneficial effect on social costs. This is precisely the case of amateur sport, which is completely oriented toward participation in sports at all levels and without discrimination.

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In the area of tax measures, this support is justified on the basis of the total impact of sport and of the obvious needs in this sector. I would like to give you some figures. Looking only at salaries and comparing them to the astronomical amounts paid in professional sports—the average salary of hockey and baseball players is between $1.2 and $1.4 million—the situation of Canadian athletes is deplorable. According to 1995 data, the average personal income of athletes under 21 years of age was $9,361, that of athletes 21 to 24 years of age, $14,316, and that of athletes 25 to 29 years old, $21,094.

Here is our sixth recommendation: it is imperative that the government take vigourous action by adopting tax incentives to encourage individuals and companies to invest in sport and to help the support structures, associations and the athletes.

The burden is particularly heavy for parents of athletes who compete nationally and internationally.

In the area of incentives, sponsorship is also an issue. Times are tough: a major recession, ferocious competition and the spread of a number of private businesses specializing in sport that captured the most lucrative activities have left the federations to support the less profitable sectors. The federated sport system has reached the point of saturation in its quest for alternative funding. The sports world counts largely on the work of volunteers; 95% of its resources are derived from their work. It is worrying to see that volunteers must devote increasingly large amounts of their time to fundraising and less to the actual coordination of their sport. They are discouraged in the present context. We believe that funding sport is not an expense, but rather an investment in our society and in tomorrow's society.

Our seventh recommendation is that Revenue Canada develop tax incentives to stimulate private funding in the sports community. This recommendation is more closely related to sponsorship that the previous one, which focused primarily on individuals who make contributions.

Recommendation number 8 is also addressed to Revenue Canada. Sports-Québec recommends that Revenue Canada mend the federal Income Tax Act to grant provincial sport organizations stature and privileges similar to those of the national associations. At the present time, it is difficult to establish a link between these associations.

In recommendation 9, we propose that the government of Canada allocate a larger share of tax revenues generated by participation in sports in Canada to the Canadian sports system.

Finally, I will deal with the specific francophone issue. I will not speak merely on behalf of Quebeckers. I will speak on behalf of all francophones. It is difficult to forget the incidents surrounding the unilingual English introduction of the Canadian delegation at the Nagano Olympic Games; however, this situation occurs at every major games, as it did at the recent Commonwealth Games.

There are few national associations that provide proper service in French, either in documentation or in program delivery. However, the development of national training centres in cities providing few or no services in French is also a demotivating factor for many francophone stakeholders, who must face exile and language problems or develop similar services at their own expense.

Our recommendation 10 is that the government of Canada ensure the development and delivery of services in French for francophone sports stakeholders and that it also ensure that the national organizations comply with the government's language policies.

On the issue of Quebec representation, Sport Canada's support for sports that are popular in Quebec, but underdeveloped elsewhere in Canada, can also be questioned. We will cite only the cases of handball, weightlifting, and archery, where many of our Quebec athletes meet international standards. However, since these sports are popular in a very limited number of regions, they do not meet Sport Canada's criteria for recognition. For these athletes to be able to carry Canada's colours, Quebec stakeholders are forced to compensate for Sport Canada's lack of judgment by providing the money that makes it possible for them to participate in international competitions.

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Recommendation 11 is that sport recognition and support criteria be revised in the light of geographical and development factors that are specific to certain regions.

Another important aspect is sports broadcasting in French by the national public broadcaster. We are referring to Radio-Canada and the CBC, and not to the French-language private network or specialty channels. We want to be very clear on this point: our comments refer to the public broadcaster.

There is a significant regression in sports broadcasting by the public broadcaster. In spite of its virtually exclusive association with professional sport and its involvement with the Olympic Games, the corporation is conspicuously absent from sport events that are important to Quebec: the Quebec games, the Canada games, and national and international championships that are held in Canada. We perceive Radio-Canada's current attitude towards francophones as discriminatory.

There is a considerable discrepancy between the sport programs carried on the CBC and Radio-Canada with respect to budgeting and scheduling. I will give you an example. At the Commonwealth Games in Kuala Lumpur, CBC had a 60-person team on location that broadcast two hours a day, 8 p.m. to 10 p.m., whereas the four- person Radio-Canada team had eight minutes of air time daily after 11 p.m. I believe that this proves beyond any doubt the unacceptable existence of "two solitudes". The Olympic production draws on a coalition of broadcasters, but such a co-production does not seem to be possible for all of the sports events covered by the CBC and ignored by its French-language counterpart. I believe that this is a serious problem.

This isolation of francophone athletes is highly irregular and deprives them of a forum for the promotion and visibility essential to the development of sport.

Recommendation number 12 is that the government of Canada intervene to correct the situation of discrimination against francophones in television sports broadcasting by their Crown corporation, the Société Radio-Canada, compared to that provided by the CBC for the anglophone community.

Another area that we feel is also very important is the field of research, where sports are very vulnerable. The research and development resources currently available to sports stakeholders are very limited. They are, for all practical purposes, non- existent. The best example of this is Fitness Canada, which had a program to support research linked to physical and sports activity, and which announced, in September 1998, that the program was discontinued due to lack of funds. Therefore, the only tool available to research in the area of physical and sports activity has to all intents and purposes been cancelled. The tap has been turned off.

It is difficult to support our statements on documented scientific research, because we cannot have studies carried out on certain phenomena, such as the perseverance of youth. These are long-term studies that require a human and financial investment, and the funds are lacking.

Research facilities devote very little attention to sport, and we have to compete with areas such as health and so on. You can imagine our priority; we have already raised this. Since there is no envelope dedicated specifically to sports and physical activity, little research is done in this area. It becomes a vicious circle; we never had the data to show the relative importance of sports and the physical and social impact that sport can have on our youth.

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Our recommendation 13 is that the government of Canada invest in specific sport research based on a number of concerns that are stated in our brief. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman and committee members, any review of the total sports picture in Canada must emphasize the role and value of sports in our society. The government must be willing to appoint a genuine leader in this field and give him the means necessary to perform his role adequately, and this is not the case at the present time.

The analysis of the present situation is, curiously, similar to that of our "loonie". It shows that sports are in a free fall, both in terms of funding and the tools available.

The primary objective of the recommendations presented by Sports-Québec is to enable the sport system to optimize its performance in all fields and at all levels of skill, not only those who are at the top of the pyramid. With better structures, sports will be able to maximize the socio-economic advantages of all those in society. That is our message. We are ready to answer your questions.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you, Mr. Ouellet.

I would like to raise a number of points with respect to your statement. We have already heard from Radio-Canada and the CBC concerning their sports coverage. I believe, and Ms. Tremblay will correct me if I'm wrong, that we were unanimous in denouncing the current discrepancy.

Furthermore, we unanimously expressed the hope that Radio- Canada would devote much more attention to amateur sports and that there be a balance in what the CBC and Radio-Canada broadcast in English and French. This will certainly be part of our recommendations. Rest assured that this will be one of the essential and key recommendations of the next report of this committee.

We will now go to questions. Let's start with opposition members. We will hear from Ms. Tremblay.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay (Rimouski—Mitis, BQ): Good afternoon, gentlemen. I read your report before you appeared, but I had to give a speech in the House. So I feel I'm ready to ask you a few questions.

I would like to add one comment about the CBC. I certainly remember what happened when we had people from the world of sports appear before us. The CBC did not get the rights to the Olympics for the next 10 years just so that they could flood the airwaves with these events for two weeks; the CBC also has to introduce us to the people who are going to be winning medals at the Olympics. To do so, they should bring back the amateur sports program that they used to have, which everyone really misses. A major part of our report certainly will deal with that issue. It's very important to us.

Here is my first question for you. In your second recommendation, you talk about collaborating with the stakeholders in the system. I read your brief, and I tried to understand what you're really driving at. Could you please tell me exactly which sports system you are talking about?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Let's start by taking a look at the make-up of the sports system. Generally speaking, it includes multisport organizations that take care of the big picture. For example, the Canadian Olympic Association is a multisport organization whose main purpose is to prepare the Canadian delegation that will be representing our country at the Olympic Games. There are those organizations. There are also organizations for university and college sports, and then there are the organizations I was mentioning a few moments ago, the multisport organizations in each province.

At present, even though there always is some continuity, these organizations are made up of people who were elected at annual general meetings or though all kinds of other mechanisms, and at some point, they are entitled to some say in the development of Canada's sports policy or in dealings with the provinces. There are links within each national association, which are known as "single- sport" associations, such as Hockey Canada, which would have links with Hockey Quebec, for example. There has to be a certain series of links.

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What we're saying is that there currently isn't any mechanism by which... The Canadian Olympic Association certainly can say what it has to say, but we don't have any forum where we can make our views known. For example, a broadly based coalition could discuss a particular policy or application of such a policy with government authorities.

In my view, there is a real vacuum, and we should have some kind of mechanism. At present, government officials define policy and government officials apply policy, and the dealings between the provinces and the federal government are handled by government officials. There are no mechanisms to set up a coalition.

There used to be the Canadian Sport Council, which received funding to organize meetings, develop positions and hold discussions. Its funding was cancelled. So, for all practical purposes, this forum has disappeared.

Yet people don't have the resources to pay for the cost of two or three meetings, even using their own organization's budget. They can't afford to pay someone to bring everything together. Canada is a big country. When a meeting is held, an organization has to spend $1,000 to send a representative. The sports organizations don't have that kind of money.

So, we used to have a number of tools, such as the sports council, but we no longer have them. In my opinion, we have to find some way of letting these people come and express their views to the government. They wouldn't necessarily have to express their views to the government authority that implements the policy. They could speak with a political authority, and express their views on the policy itself. As far as I know, there is no such mechanism in Canada. We have business plans and all kinds of other things, but we have no government policy.

Quebec set up such a mechanism after consultations were held throughout the entire province, in all the regions and with all provincial organizations. Quebec managed to create a government framework that allows stakeholders to intervene in the area of sports and recreation. I don't think such a mechanism exists at the federal level. We have procedures and a framework, but...

We must find a way of allowing the coalitions and the volunteers to make their views known within such a framework so that they can have an influence on it.

That was one example, and I could give you many more. I don't know whether that answers your question, but we think that a vacuum does exist. Some continuity certainly is always needed so as to allow for follow-up. Volunteers can't provide it; they are there, and they donate their time. At present, the people who ensure the follow-up have the whole place to themselves, and there is no room for the other people, who represent the grassroots within the sports system.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: In your first recommendation, you say that Canada should have a minister responsible for sport, because there are no such ministers anywhere in Canada.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Actually, yes, there is such a person.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: No government in Canada has designated—

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Provincial governments? No.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: No, but I believe many other countries have a minister responsible for sports.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes, that's true.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: And their sports policies are awfully well thought out. If you'd like me to give you an example, I could mention England or Australia, which have very coherent sports policies.

Of course we have a number of special features. England has just established its sports policy, which extends all the way down to the schools, and they have a minister who is responsible for the policy. In England, sports are part of physical education, and part of extracurricular activities.

There also is a link with the entire coalition of sports federations, which even goes as far as representation. And they went even further than that. They provided for ways of letting the grassroots manage the policy. Money generated from a lottery was taken and invested in sports. So as you can see, the English aren't just paying lip service to sports. They have provided funding right from the grassroots to the very top.

It's quite different. We certainly can't do the same thing in Canada, since education is a provincial area of jurisdiction, and so on and so forth. We are aware of that, but I do think there is some way of having something.

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Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: For example, we could have greater collaboration.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: We could have a model and useful tools that would allow for integration within federal and provincial areas of jurisdiction.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Thank you very much. We will now move on to Dr. Patry.

Dr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Ouellet and Mr. Pelletier. The brief that you gave us has a great deal of substance.

My first remark has to do with health. I am a physician, and once you're a physician, you're always a physician.

On page 13, you mention the benefits of sports. That's great, and even researchers have recognized these benefits. My first remark is that young people are becoming more and more obese. We are seeing this problem in the United States, here in Canada, and North America is not the only region affected; it's practically a worldwide phenomenon. The statistics you gave us are alarming.

In my opinion, the main explanation for this problem is that young people are not doing physical exercise anymore, and I'm sure it's due to the appearance of computers. Kids park themselves in front of the computer screen. They don't park themselves in front of the television now, they're in front of the computer. This is one of the problems that we're going to have to deal with.

You've quoted Kino-Québec, which I think is the authority in Quebec when it comes to physical activity. Here is my first question for you. I don't know what report you took the pages entitled "Young people and physical activity, reason for concern or alarm?" from. I don't think it's a matter of concern or alarm, it's a matter for both concern and alarm.

Is Kino-Québec making any recommendations, or is it just saying what it should say? You can say that the government should invest more money in sports, that the government should do this or do that, but after all, we have to find some practical, down-to- earth solutions.

I'm asking you this question because we have the same problem with young people smoking. They start smoking at 14 to take on a certain lifestyle, to look like a star, to look cool, all those things. Various social, physiological and psychological factors cause these attitudes.

My question is as follows: Would Kino-Québec or certain national associations be in favour of our drawing a parallel between these two phenomena, and would it be possible to link anti- smoking campaigns with physical activity campaigns so that we wouldn't just be sending out a negative message, but also a positive message? That's my first question. I'll let you answer, and then I have a second question for you.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: That information was taken from a recent publication, which came out in 1998; it is a good piece of work that certainly sets out the problem.

People everywhere in Canada are currently worried about our young people not getting enough physical activity. It starts with what I call the yellow cancers, the school buses. Kids don't walk to school anymore. As we said, they really are less active than 30 years ago.

I think that the problem begins with the parents' influence on their kids, because apparently they are already obese in elementary schools. So the parents have to be made aware of the problem. We have to focus on the parents. The kids aren't the problem, because they want to run around and be active, but we have to give them the opportunity and the context to do so.

The number of hours of physical education in elementary school has been reduced. It's the only time the kids can move around a bit, but this period has been shortened so as to provide more time for... I think that you have received other briefs about that problem.

How bad is the problem going to have to get before we take vigourous measures and get our kids moving again?

I don't know whether you are familiar with Kino-Québec, but it has approximately 30 resource people who are working to get this information out. They are working in the regions, making people aware that regular physical activity really pays off.

Yes, there are a number of possibilities. But we would like to have an influence on program composition, right from early childhood, so that young people will have the opportunities to be more active. We have to make the departments of education aware of this problem, and we have to have an infrastructure. No such infrastructure currently exists, and we have to keep on working on this.

Claude might have something to add.

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Mr. Claude Pelletier (Director General, Sports Quebec): As for resources, an entire campaign is currently underway in Quebec, in each one of the regions, to encourage each and every school and municipality to find some resources to increase sport activities in each and every area. There are meetings underway at the provincial level with the sports federations. There is one coming up soon, and we are going to ask each federation to see what it could do in its own particular discipline to tackle this problem.

Mr. Bernard Patry: Thank you for your answers. I have been president of the Lac Saint-Louis region for the Quebec Games. When you're mayor of a city, you're very familiar with amateur sport. It works very well.

When you talked about sport as entertainment, you expressed a few reservations. I found that quite interesting. You talked about professional hockey. You also referred to the astronomical salaries and things of that nature.

Twenty or twenty-five years ago, there were the Montreal Canadiens and there were the junior Canadiens. At that time, all professional teams were the owners of "amateur hockey clubs". In fact, these were junior teams. Are the majors still owners of such teams or have they completely withdrawn from that and left it up to the province or volunteers?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: You've asked the right person, because I chair the Excellence Development Commission of Hockey Quebec. Hockey is losing ground, somewhat—you looked at the television ratings, and so forth—but it's also losing ground compared to other sports.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): After last night's match, there won't be any more.

Mr. Bernard Patry: They scored goals last night, but not on the right side.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: At one time, what were municipalities building? Arenas and baseball fields. Now we have sport centres. There are other sports being practised. There's been an evolution in sports culture, and young people have many choices before them. Parents have a determining influence over practice. At some point, most fathers had played hockey and their sons therefore also played hockey. That's not the case for some people today. Some fathers take their sons skiing. So that's a very important influence. There are opportunities that never used to exist.

Earlier, I was talking about American culture. It never used to be a problem to get support for major junior hockey teams or teams at any level. There were people in the stands. That was the only game in town. But that's no longer the case. There is television. Why should I travel to get to an arena? On television, I can get hockey on three different channels. Therefore, we are in a different society that means that all these people, whether in major junior hockey or midget hockey, have enormous problems self-financing right now in order to survive in a market which is more competitive for them too. It puts us in a situation where the organizational structures... Wherever I go to practice a sport, I increasingly find a user-pay policy.

So when you're talking about an increase in physical activity, you have to look at things squarely: this is a middle-class phenomenon. Those we try to reach are the underprivileged and we don't get them because of the costs; it is not possible for us to make it accessible to them. The best example is hockey. Hockey is so expensive in terms of equipment, insurance, etc., that at some point, people decide to do something else. So there's this avenue that we haven't managed to get to: to get the poor out of the corner store, the ghetto, to prevent them from dropping out of school, etc.

When we talk about research, we'd have to see what our young people want today, in the decade leading up to the year 2000, and beyond. We don't necessarily have what's needed. We don't have enough tools to respond to their needs because we have not identified those needs at the outset.

I don't know if that answers your question, but it's a very broad issue.

Mr. Bernard Patry: You are quite right, Mr. Ouellet. In one of the towns in my riding, a rather large town, there was a double municipal arena and it was torn down. A more attractive arena was built, with an international ice rink and everything you might want, but the costs are proportional. Instead of insuring lower costs for its citizens, the municipality is partly subsidizing private business, and there are no more problems with blue collars or with anyone else. That is their management style.

• 1640

I have one final question, regarding your recommendation number 8. I would like to have some details regarding the legal status of sports organizations within the context of the amended federal Income Tax Act. You state that national associations can at this time receive contributions and issue tax receipts.

If you are a branch of a national association—because it must necessarily be national associations and branches in Quebec—can the Quebec branch get a share of the money or does the money remain in national hands and does everyone have to fight, as usual, to get their share?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: I will give you a current example from the Canadian Council, where there is a tax number used by most of the organizations. The problem is that with the current Act, direct contributions cannot be made. We cannot say: "Here's $100 that I am giving to Quebec athletes." You can contribute to the association, but you cannot say that this is for the softball association, the Y club or Jean-Yves Proteau, for instance. Of course there is a control mechanism to make sure that the law is respected within that context but managing this in the volunteer sector makes no sense. We can't have traffic policemen directing where the money moves. A contributor in your municipality has to go through the national association and cannot say that it should come back to the municipality. This makes people say: "I don't think I'm really interested."

Mr. Bernard Patry: Can money contributed by someone to the national amateur baseball association that covers all of Canada be redirected 100% to Quebec?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Yes, within certain conditions, but where does the responsibility lie? It still lies with the organization...

Mr. Bernard Patry: The national organization.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: ... holding the tax number that does the monitoring and people don't have the means to monitor whether the money was really directed to its intended purpose.

In the Canadian Council, Revenue Canada even threatened to take it away from us because they had observed rather exceptional cases of organizations using the Canadian Council number. For instance, a Saskatchewan swimming club printed a little pamphlet saying: "If you give us $50, it will come straight back to you." This is against the law. This kind of labelling is not allowed. It creates problems.

For the last 20 years I've been hearing that this or that should be amended or made more flexible, and they are still talking about it. I find this rather distressing because those people have a hard time getting funds, but it is extremely difficult to put the management of these funds into their hands within the present tax Act. We are always skirting the fringe of legality. We met the Revenue Canada people. There is no bad faith on their part, but the current Act is very narrow. We think it should be reviewed and broadened.

Mr. Bernard Patry: Thank you, Mr. Ouellet. Thank you, Mr. Pelletier.

The Chairman: Mr. Bertrand.

Mr. Robert Bertrand (Pontiac—Gatineau—Labelle, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have two brief questions for you, Mr. Ouellet. In your brief, you make a number of recommendations regarding financing, either through the direct injection of funds, or through tax incentives. Have you calculated the cost of all your recommendations? How much are we talking about?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: I do not have a cost figure, but I will give you an example. When we organize the Quebec Games or the Sports-Québec Gala, we have to come up with virtually 100% of the financing. Let me give you a simpler example, our awards gala. Mr. Coderre was present last year. This is a way of recognizing our athletes and our coaches who have done well, to get them better known and increase their profile in society. We said that more importance should be attached to this activity. We try to up the profile of our athletes and coaches. In order to do that, we need $200,000 or $300,000 worth of sponsorships. When we try to finance our activities, we are competing with hospitals and other charities which also seek donations from individuals. Our job might be easier if there were some more attractive alternatives in this regard. That is what we are saying.

• 1645

What does that mean? I don't think we're talking about extraordinary amounts, but they will enable important events and organizations to survive. Otherwise, they won't survive. That is the situation. Those are the facts of life today.

So we have our gala and every year we find ourselves wondering whether to go ahead with it or not. We are asked whether it is on television. It is not on television. People also ask how big it is, whether this is something serious or not. So we never know what is going to happen from one year to the next.

If we had some more attractive options to present, perhaps businesses would be more generous and would work with us more. Ultimately, that is what we are requesting.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Let us go back to what I mentioned earlier. You say in recommendation 6: "It is imperative that the government adopt tax incentives...". Could you give me an example of a tax incentive?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Let's assume my son were a good enough athlete to compete at the national level or was about to be on a swim team... Let me take another example.

Young people in our area have to pay between $2,500 and $5,000—depending on the team—to play in the AAA midget league, which is the best league for 15 and 16-year olds in Quebec. If parents had some tax support to make it possible for their child to play in the AAA midget league, that would be a tax incentive.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: A deduction?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: A deduction. Maybe I didn't explain it very well, but such a measure would make it easier for parents to pay this amount, which increases the higher you get.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): I would like to ask for a clarification. If we're talking about tax incentives, that does not affect the poorest people.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: No.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): You know that. Fine. So, following your logic, there should be a tax policy on sports. Initially, there would be some incentives to encourage the private sector to invest. There could be a higher deduction for representations, for example. Is that correct?

Second, we're talking here about the middle class. If you buy equipment for your child, the cost could be tax deductible up to a certain maximum. Is that in fact what you mean?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: We don't have any measures to suggest, but it is...

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): I'm talking about the principle of the thing.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Yes, yes.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): And third, you say that we should focus on assistance to organizations, and that this might provide a tax incentive for the economically disadvantaged, by providing a charitable organization number to local or provincial groups.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Yes, and that would allow us to help out those people, something which is extremely difficult to do at the moment.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): As you know, Mr. Ouellet, there have been some horror stories involving these charitable organization numbers.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Yes.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): You are aware of that. You also know that Revenue Canada is trying to restrict the use of these charitable organization numbers. Given that, would it not be preferable, rather than talking about national associations—and here we're using big words again—to talk about confederations? Ultimately, the regional associations would be more independent and would run things in the region. You would have a new structure, with a new national leadership, and a working group, but in the end, the region would be much more autonomous. Given that the region knows the area the best, it could assume responsibility for establishing and administering the regulations. However, fair national standards would be laid down for the region, to deal with the national issue of amateur athletes.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: What we have to do is redistribute the funds allocated at the national level to the provincial and local levels.

When we met with the people in charge of this at the time of the tax audit, we found some good ways of achieving some control over these things—namely project presentation and identification, use of funds and the various components that would provide for a control procedure. That could be done relatively easily.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): One final question before I give the floor to Ms. Tremblay, because we are going to end the meeting at 5 p.m., with your permission.

• 1650

There is clearly a leadership problem. You think a political structure must be created, that there should be a Secretary of State in charge of sports, someone who can exert a great deal more pressure. The pressure would start at the top and work down, so that there would be better coordination, or at least better incentives for sports.

Second, there's the whole issue of Sport Canada. We heard some horror stories, and they have been talked about for a long time. However, I would like you to be much more specific about the relationship between Sport Canada and Sports-Québec. Essentially, you seem to get uneasy when you hear the words "public servant". Do you think Sport Canada is a sort of shelf that gathers dust and do you think that ultimately the real problem is that Heritage Canada is too big and that sport accounts for only 2% of the whole department, that the priorities are elsewhere, and that if there were a minister and a name change for the department, that would solve all the problems?

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: There would still be public servants.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Yes, there would still be public servants.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Sport Canada is not the only issue. There's a lack of government policy in this area. If one is established, we will have to equip ourselves... Sport may not be an isolated area. There's the whole issue of health and welfare. I'm thinking of disease prevention, not its cure. So I think it would be advisable to establish a genuine policy designed to make Canadians more active. I think that is essential.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): I am going to stop you there, Mr. Ouellet. The reason I'm asking this question is that we used to have a Minister of Sport. We may have had the same public servants. They may have grown a little older, but was there not a problem of inertia at that time? I do not necessarily disagree with you. What I mean is that the mere fact that we have a department and a minister is not necessarily a panacea. We now have a subcommittee on sports; the last time we had one was in 1969. Is the real problem structural or rather one of political will?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: I think there is both. There must be a political will to enhance sport and physical activity Canada-wide, and there must also be a will to acquire tools and mechanisms. Right now we have on the one hand Physical Fitness, which is at Health Canada, and on the other, Sport Canada. I am not sure whether these people talk to one another much, and I do not think we have an integrated policy. If we have a clear direction, the operational structure that is used, whether it is called Sport Canada or not, will enjoy the leadership needed to apply the policy. At present, they have to establish and apply the policy themselves. That is where the difficulty lies. They are severe because they do not feel there are enough means; secondly, they are very narrow in their outlook; and finally, there is no forum to talk about how it should be modified. As you can see, the impression they create can not be that good. Clearly there is an inconsistency present, and it must change. Otherwise we are going to keep having irritants, and it won't exactly be a picnic.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): You're justifying our job. Soon we will have a standing committee on sports with all this.

Ms. Tremblay.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It's interesting to think about this matter, even though we may be thinking out loud, but we must be careful not to fall into "structuritis". Right now, sport seems to have more weight in the Cabinet with the Heritage Minister. It could be the Heritage Minister, because it's not tied in with the person, but the Heritage Minister is a member of the Cabinet. She goes to all the meetings, which would not be the case if we had a Secretary of State with a representative at the meetings two or three times yearly, reporting to his or her minister. The discussion would be in the hands of the man who saw the man who saw the bear, rather than in the hands of the man who saw the bear. It's not clear. If you put a large amount of money in the structure, it would mean less for athletes, for youth or for things like that. We must be careful not to fall into that trap. I am a little concerned about it. It would not bother me too much to see Canada create such an organization, but we would have to see whether it was really the best solution.

• 1655

However, it might be interesting to adopt a policy and to put someone in charge of implementing it under the Minister's authority.

As for the recommendations you make and most of the things you mention, the Quebec government supports you or does things—

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: We are not a part of the government. Sports-Québec is not like Sport Canada. I am a volunteer.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: What I mean is—

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: I want to explain to you that I am a volunteer. Sports-Québec is a democratic structure.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: Yes, sir, I know that.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: It isn't a public service structure.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I didn't explain myself clearly. I am aware of what you are saying. However, you also said, for example, that:

Sports-Québec feels that the Canadian government must do its part in injecting the funds required to rebuild and develop Canada's sports facilities.

The sports facilities are a municipal responsibility.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Yes.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: You realize that agreements must be made with the provinces in order to be able to put money into this. I would like to suggest something. Suppose that Sport Canada or the Canadian government should decide, with its surpluses, to take $50 million and invest it in sports. Your 13 recommendations—that's an excellent number—what order would you put them in? Where should we invest first? Where does the greatest need lie?

I heard you talk about coaches. The coaches' association came here and told us everything was going well as far as they were concerned. There were no problems anywhere, everything was just great. It was pointed out that they perhaps should have brought some coaches with them, but they forgot. You seem to be saying that there are problems with coaches.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Yes indeed!

I just wish to react to two things, Ms. Tremblay. We are not calling for a structure. We wish to see the value of sports enhanced, and this is done by a policy, a minister or that kind of thing. We are suggesting that, but we are saying primarily that improvements must be made. You say that there is a senior minister, but this is not apparent in the area of sports, because investments keep going down and it is becoming less and less important in the government apparatus.

I am feeling the reverse effect. I have a senior minister, but sports is not a big part of this program, because I am experiencing tax cuts, etc. When I ask him something, I get an answer—

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: No money!

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Either no money or no answer. I don't want to be nasty, and yes we have a senior minister, but is this minister concerned about sports? I don't think so. When it's time to look at sports, I am not sure that it is an important priority among all the other ones.

I do not wish to give the impression that we are looking for a structure. What we want is a mechanism within the government to create a more effective policy. It's not a question of "structuritis" but of getting a more effective mechanism.

You were talking about the physical facilities a while ago. It is not the government that decides whether the Olympic Games will be held in a certain place, but the government does invest significant amounts in the physical facilities because of the games. As I mentioned, there is a lack of balance. I don't know how many millions have been invested in Western Canada since 1976, but we in the east have not had much. I realize that it's a responsibility, but there is nonetheless a lack of balance because of the events. They finance when there are games going on, but not when there are none. Our concerns go beyond that.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: What is your priority?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: My first priority is for the government to adopt a policy to enhance sports and physical fitness among Canadians and to provide more resources than what we have now. We have no choice. Without the resources, even with a policy, it won't go anywhere. We must have the means to back up the policy, but we must have one to begin with. It is up to the government, and I feel it is essential. This will produce the resources we need, and the way in which the policy is to be applied, in co-operation with the various associations and the provinces.

• 1700

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: I would like to ask one final question concerning the two official languages. Everyone knows what happened, and we don't need to dwell on the two unfortunate incidents. Do the francophone athletes from Quebec and the other parts of Canada have difficulty being competitive because they are not as good, or because their language is a barrier? Is it really a language problem? I was very surprised to learn—and I can't wait to see it—that Mr. Boudria is going to make the francophone games a bilingual event. It's kind of funny.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: The Jeux de la francophonie are something else. But in answer to your question, I'd say that it depends on the sport. Sports are governed by politics. Just as an example, let's take a sport we all know well, volleyball. If we decide to build a training centre for the national volleyball team in Winnipeg or Calgary, the little francophone guy or girl from Quebec who will go to study over there and live in another environment where services aren't being offered in French will face problems. Maybe that's the price to pay, but there is one.

We're not talking about discrimination in view of choices, but rather about the services our francophone athletes need. We uproot them from their environment and the problem goes beyond language and culture. They'll land in an environment that isn't propitious and we should be giving them some basic services, but they don't have that presently.

For example, the National Sports Centre in Calgary gets important subsidies from Sport Canada and the Olympic Association. Can a Montreal athlete expect to be offered services in both official languages? You're in Calgary, so!...

If a francophone practices a sport where the training and development context are anglophone, of course he'll have problems. Our demands go even farther than that. We're talking about translation, documents offered in both languages, interface and training. We're talking about all those matters. We're not denying that efforts have been made, but the objectives targeted are not attained. The results we get indicate that our efforts are not enough. Maybe we should be making more specific efforts, but that's where we're at.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Mr. Ouellet, not so long ago I was vice-president of the official languages committee and I learned a lot about the administrative process. In the light of what you're saying today, with the committee's permission, I will present an official complaint to the Commissioner of Official Languages. I will ask him to investigate and make sure that any problem of accessibility is settled whether it has to do with documents, translation or services. In my opinion, the least we can do is to make sure that our francophones are not treated like second-class citizens.

I will apprise you of his answer as soon as I get it. I'm aware that you're the president of the National Multisport Centre in Montreal and that it's important for this message to be sent to you either through this committee or the official languages one. This is a non-partisan matter that deserves our full attention. If I brought Bill Warren before us after the Nagano incidents, I am fully capable of calling any other witness. Ms. Tremblay and all members of the committee who take Canada's bilingualism to heart could do as much. Rest assured that an official complaint will be lodged and we will ask Commissioner Goldbloom to examine this matter and give us an answer as soon as possible.

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: Concerning discrimination, I'd like to point out that we made representations to State television; we opened a docket in 1996 and I personally sent several letters, one of them a month ago to the chairman. I did not make any untoward remarks, but I was trying to find out how we could get through. I understand that the Crown corporation must be at arm's length from the political side. We expect this and that's normal. But we have to go inside and see what importance the CBC grants its programming. I, for one, am still searching and am very concerned, because for our youth it's very important to be visible and to have access to things other than professional sports and newscasts. But that's all we're being allowed for the present.

• 1705

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): They'll probably tell you it's because they had budget cuts and they had to honour certain priority responsibilities. We don't take that too literally. I'm repeating, we asked them clearly, when they appeared, to emphasize that. Ms. Tremblay was there also.

It's not normal that we don't have Les Héros du samedi anymore. It's particularly abnormal, when we have Canadian athletes going to Kuala Lumpur, that we can only follow what they're doing on CBC and not on Radio-Canada. And it's even less normal to have 60 people working for CBC in Kuala Lumpur and only four for Radio- Canada; and on top of that, Radio-Canada only had eight minutes to broadcast the event.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: There's something else, too. It's not normal that the Jeux de l'Acadie are broadcast, and that they're refusing to broadcast the Jeux de l'Ontario or the Jeux du Québec.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): That's also clear.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: It really doesn't make any sense. If the Jeux de l'Acadie are on television, the Jeux du Québec, Jeux de l'Ontario and Jeux de l'Ouest must also be broadcast.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): We have questions on how their priorities are defined. Maybe Mr. Bertrand has a last word for us.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Yes, one last word, Mr. Chairman. Something was said about filing a complaint with the Commissioner for Official Languages. I wonder if, instead of that, we wouldn't be better off asking for an investigation first. I'm a new member on this committee.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): That will be followed up with an investigation, in any case, but we have to lodge the complaint.

Ms. Suzanne Tremblay: You have to lodge a complaint if you want to have an investigation.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Oh, fine!

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): That's procedure.

Mr. Robert Bertrand: Fine.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Is all that okay? Mr. Ouellet, do you want to have the last word?

Mr. Jean-Guy Ouellet: I hope that the slightly provincial view of the Canadian situation that most organizations who came before you spoke of here will lead you to viewing this in a different way.

On our hand, we wanted to share our concerns about the situation of sport in Canada. We tried to do this as professionally as possible, as fully as possible and we hope that all the recommendations that were made will help the members of the committee in their work and with the decisions they will have to make.

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Denis Coderre): Messrs. Ouellet and Pelletier, thank you very much. Thank you for your brevity. Your statements were quite clear and quite instructive.

The meeting stands adjourned.