NDVA Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL DEFENCE AND VETERANS AFFAIRS

COMITÉ PERMANENT DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES ANCIENS COMBATTANTS

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Monday, June 1, 1998

• 1405

[English]

Colonel William Reid (Commander, Training Schools, Canadian Forces Base Borden): Ladies and gentlemen, mesdames et messieurs, welcome to this afternoon's session of SCONDVA.

[Translation]

I urge Francophones to ask their questions in their mother tongue.

[English]

I urge you this afternoon, if you have questions or whatever, to speak out. I'll tell you from this morning's session on the round table, the team here is understanding and knowledgeable of the problem and I believe they can do something for you.

Am I right?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood (Nipissing, Lib.)): You are.

Col William Reid: So without any further ado, I'd like to introduce the chairman of the SCONDVA committee, the member from Nipissing, member of Parliament, Bob Wood.

Bob, it's all out to you. The hour seminar is gone. It's an open forum. Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you, Colonel, and thank you for your hospitality since we've been here.

As the colonel was saying, we had an excellent morning today, and I'd like to welcome everyone here this afternoon.

Don't be too intimidated by the surroundings. As the colonel has said, everything will be in both official languages. Translation is available; there are translation devices available if you need them. All this stuff you see behind us is to record and to send directly back to Ottawa. Also, we have research staff with us this afternoon.

We have a speakers list of around seven people to start with. If you would like to appear before us and have some comments that you would like to make, we would encourage you to register before you come up, so that we know who you are so that we can have it for our official records.

We will be here until 5 p.m., and we will be back again tonight until 7 p.m.

I would like to introduce my political colleague from the Reform Party, Mr. Leon Benoit. Leon and I have had an opportunity to travel throughout the country. Mr. Benoit is just recently back from the SCONDVA hearings in Bosnia. We've been at this right from the start.

Some of our other colleagues couldn't join us today, but we have everybody that we need. We have the opposition, the government, and the research people, so we're ready to go.

We'd like to call our first gentleman, George Collins. Mr. Collins, the floor is yours.

Mr. George A. Collins (Individual Presentation): I've made a written submission under my heading, my résumé, and also my wife's, and it includes some documents of interest to the commission.

My full documentation on this problem with the Department of Veterans Affairs exceeds 300 millimetres—I measured it the other day—a stack just under a metre of documentation going on from the year 1944-45, through a period of 21 years, from 1977, when my health started deteriorating very quickly.

I didn't recognize that I had been exposed in a fire in a Lancaster bomber going into Schweinfurt. The three tons on board were on fire, and we were smelling the sickening nerve gas of phosphorus-burning firebombs.

When I left the aircraft, it was like a cork in a bottle. The front entry would not pass the military chute on my chest, and I sat in the slipstream and lost my boots at a wind speed of over 100 knots, estimated, and a freezing temperature. My feet were totally frozen when I hit the ground with bare feet. The British military flying boots were nice lambskin, but they had no retention on the feet in any windstream.

• 1410

I broke my back and I injured my feet, and I have documents to prove both.

In 1947 I applied for a pension on the basis of the feet, and I was literally told in writing that the injuries were pre-enlistment. That's the greatest insult you can give to a veteran who has war wounds. These were documents from the Department of Veterans Affairs. The medical doctors and specialists in the city of Hamilton were completely.... They couldn't even record.... I have documents now from people who say that every vein in my feet is terminally clotted from the freezing.

Now the back and feet injuries were evaluated at zero and zero for a pension; I finally got zero and 1%. That was an insult as well, as I got a $300 military settlement for my feet injuries.

Then I went down to Charlottetown to sit in front of the chief advocate general's office. It was at my own expense, and it cost $2,000. My wife went down there. I went down there as a 73-year-old man. He said that I shouldn't get excited. He said I should go home and that he would see what he could do for me. I got a 5% and 5% pension for my military wounds.

I have no sensitivity in the bottom of my feet whatsoever. They're cold. In the winter, they're frozen. I have massive cramps three nights out of five in own bed because of the lack of circulation in my feet. I can tell you that I have the documents to prove these facts.

Let's go on. I actually went to Ottawa to get compensation. I stood in the office of the Department of Veterans Affairs. I was there at 8 a.m., and at 9.30 a lady comes in. She asked me who I wanted to see. I said that I wanted to show her my war wounds. I took off my shoes and socks, and showed her my war wounds. Within 24 hours, I was placed in a psychiatric hospital in Ottawa as a 74-year-old veteran.

I was placed there by two municipal policemen, the biggest guys I ever saw in my life. These guys were Mafia; they said they were Mafia. The day before, they drove me over to the university, so I wasn't crazy. They knew I wasn't crazy. They drove me over to the department of journalism and dropped me off at the university.

This lady—you can see this in the document you see here—confined me. I have the confinement orders here. It's on the pages of the document. This woman is crazy. They called me crazy in her office. She had just had a grandchild the day before, and she was worried. She was speaking in the other official language. She wasn't even speaking English, but she swore out this warrant for me to go to the insane asylum.

I was confined in the hospital in Ottawa with all the alcoholics and dope addicts on the same floor, but I wasn't going insane. I was never given the right documentation. I was actually inspected by an intern. Three days later, a doctor saw me, which was strictly illegal, and said that I needed treatment. Treatment? Jesus, if I had ever been taken in a POW camp, I would have gotten out through the channel.

Back to this whole thing, I have a letter in here about how the pensions are cut up. They're cut up like a loaf of bread, and if there's enough cuts in the damn thing, there's no bread left.

This is what happened. I have an evader's compensation here. I was down behind the enemy lines in civilian clothes with the French resistance and the Croix de Lorraine on my arm. My brains would have come out my forehead if the Germans had caught me, and everybody in the village would have gone that way. So here I am, with no evader's pension, because I don't have 90 days behind enemy lines. This is a reasonable solution?

I walked to Switzerland. I find out that the commander there, a wing commander, had been caught in his pyjamas in North Africa. He kept on saying to me over and over again that if I escaped from Switzerland, he would court martial me when I returned to England. I said to him, “up yours”. I said I was going back to France after I recovered for three months.

I did recover. I got no time in the French resistance on the south of France in civilian clothes for my evader's pension. So they cut the cake so small that you don't get get anything. So there's the compensation available....

• 1415

My five minutes may be over, but I think I can just go through these letters.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Take your time. We have a lot of time.

Mr. George Collins: Thank you.

From the Canadian Pension Commission, which declined the pension:

As the commission's decision is not favourable, you may contact your representative to decide if you wish to appeal.

Appeals in the Hamilton office are impossible. Actually, they have a guy there who is very helpful—I'm not mentioning names, but you can find out—and he is a defrocked Anglican priest. He's running the office down there. He told me, over his shoulder, “I'm a priest.” So what?

The next is a letter from the minister: “Thank you for your letter dated.... Careful review of the file indicates....”. This thing started in 1977, and he simply says there's no way I can get a pension on the basis of the documentation I gave him. But the thing is, I wrote a letter....

And I want to give you these documents to show how the bureaucracy works and to show the time scale. The letter was transmitted by courier to the minister, Mr. Mifflin, on October 16, 1997. I get a letter from the dear lady in the office on November 17—that looks like about a month—who says “The minister will consider your letter at a future date.” On November 23 he stamps the letter that he's writing to me. I have three questions in the letter and I get no answers to any of the questions.

I asked the minister about one thing that's seriously worrying me as a Canadian citizen: that 74-year-old veterans will never be seized by policemen and thrown on the floor! If I hadn't gone down to the floor with that hold on my wrist, I would have broken my arm. I was thrown on the floor of the minister's office by two guys who knew I wasn't insane because they had taken me over to Mr. Johansen's office in the communications department of Carleton University the day before and we were joking all the way over.

Mr. Mifflin doesn't answer the questions from October 16 to November 23. The department is completely useless for communications.

For example, I've contacted Hamilton and asked the people in the department, “Who is above you? Who can I go to?” They say they don't know. I contacted a lady who is the head of communications, in Kirkland Lake, at the regional office. If you want her name I'll give it to you, but I'm not going public with it. She said she doesn't even know there's a structure above her head.

That's gross mismanagement! Man! You should take me on as a consultant in management for the department.

I phoned Ottawa. The chief of communications doesn't know where my lawyers could send a brief. We want a settlement—and we want it fast—equal to one year's consulting with the department. I can solve.... The only way to solve these problems.... The other day, I understand, the ladies got an ombudsman service with a decent Canadian at the head of it and a structure equal to knowledge, to solve these problems—before we're all dead!

Thank you for listening.

Voices: Hear, hear.

Mr. George Collins: By the way, Rio Algom and Algoma.... It's a riding, the riding where $250 million was made out of uranium, which is now all around the world. And who is the head of it? You know the Liberal member from Algoma, from northern Ontario. I'm a mining geologist and I know what they made. And that was on one mine; they had 12 mines they made profits on.

Thank you very much. I'll answer questions now, sir.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you very much, Mr. Collins. We appreciate your testimony. I believe we do have some questions for you, if you don't mind.

Mr. George Collins: Any time. I actually have part of the documents, which are yours when you want them.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Great. We'll be glad to pick them up.

Mr. Benoit.

• 1420

Mr. Leon E. Benoit (Lakeland, Ref.): Mr. Collins, I'll get the documentation and look at it, but I just want to ask a couple of questions. First, have you ever had a doctor who acknowledged the injury, your broken back and so on?

Mr. George Collins: Yes. I went up to Downsview to see the aerospace people. See? I have some brains. I don't use my family doctor to examine my back and my feet. I went up there and I sat down on his chesterfield. He's in charge of all the aerospace medicine up there. I have his name. I'll give you the documents if you want. He will not commit himself in writing: he has a pension coming up. He told me there are a thousand matelots in the Canadian Armed Forces, the navy, who can't even get pensions for the hearing loss from living inside with the turbines of the atomic submarines. They're deaf, stone deaf—and he's deaf too.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Mr. George Collins: But he's telling me pension, he doesn't go for DVA. The matelots are deaf. So he told me.... That's where I got the idea of the frozen feet. I was never told my feet were frozen. It's like chickens when you put them in a wind; it's the old business of the department of meteorology, which always tell you the wind-chill factor. The wind-chill at 180 knots at 20 degrees of frost is absolute: you freeze in three seconds.

Does that answer your question?

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay. Yes.

Mr. George Collins: I have his word for it, and I'll go into a court of law for it, because other doctors.... A psychiatrist who examined me found terminal clotting in my feet—a psychiatrist! Why don't these other doctors find it? They don't want to find it.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay, thank you.

Mr. George Collins: Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Mr. Collins, you're still on a pension of 5% and 5%, are you not?

Mr. George Collins: No, I have 50% for mental stress—

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes?

Mr. George Collins: That's just what loses you your driver's licence, by the way. If anybody grabs you for a slight accident, boy, you've had it.

And I'm going for 100% mental stress. It's post-traumatic stress disorder or something. It's Yankee; it's come across the border now. I can get 90% stress disorder, 5% hearing loss, and this 5% and 5%. I'll have to lose 5%, because I'm over the 100%.

That's still going through the system. I have two letters dated within the last week from the department in Hamilton saying that I have to get more documents about my feet. I have those documents in my file.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Okay. You also talked about a settlement—

Mr. George Collins: I get 65% then.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Okay. What did you have in mind? You said the settlement—

Mr. George Collins: The 100% pension—

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Okay.

Mr. George Collins: —backdated three years. But I would like to serve as a consultant for a dollar a year plus some reasonable expenses, because I can identify 5,000 cases of people who can't apply for pensions. And you ask why? I'll tell you later.

I have an organization that's called Saint George. It operates in the interests of people across Canada who cannot fight for themselves. I've had people phone me from British Columbia and Nova Scotia requesting my assistance. I say “Go to the minister's office and take your shoes off.”

Voices: Oh, oh.

Mr. George Collins: That's the only way to get attention in this country—and make sure you don't wash for a month before you go to the office.

Voices: Hear, hear.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you very much, Mr. Collins.

Mr. George Collins: Is that it? Thank you for your consideration. I'd like to get the consulting, because I have knowledge that you'll never find out about veterans in Canada, combat veterans.

Can I say one thing? This ombudsman's important, but why not get 75 years of age for every combat veteran...? I'm talking about combat veterans: give them a full $2,000 pension. That's the lowest pension the Canadian government offers, you know, the DVA—the lowest pension, that's all you'll get.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you.

Next is Alan Matthew Prusila.

Corporal Alan Matthew Prusila (Individual Presentation): I'd like to thank the chairman and the committee for allowing me to appear before you today.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): We have your documentation, I think.

Cpl Alan Matthew Prusila: Yes, sir, you do.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Okay.

Cpl Alan Matthew Prusila: I'd like to thank the committee for allowing me to appear before you today.

The first briefing I prepared for you would take an hour and a half to go through. The clerk of the committee suggested that I shorten it to about five minutes or be charged with cruel and unusual punishment with respect to the committee and the audience.

• 1425

Voices: Oh, oh.

Cpl Alan Prusila: I'm a corporal with 2 Intelligence Company in Toronto. I've been a member of the Canadian Forces since 1984.

In the fall of 1995, I sought medical assistance for depression. After my superior learned of this, I was harassed and a false performance report was concocted. After I complained to my commanding officer, my complaint was ignored and a false security clearance report was concocted, which claimed that I was mentally unstable; a confessed thief; indebted; having family problems; a liar; and that I had possibly committed security violations. My security clearance has since been returned to me.

There are two key points in regard to this report: one claiming that I'm a confessed thief and the other dealing with my family problems. The subparagraph in the report details allegations of theft. I will now read the subparagraph into the record,

Theft: on three occasions, since October, 1995, varying sums of money have been stolen from the Chief Clerk's petty cash box as well as the canteen fund. Corporal Prusila has verbally admitted to two of these and is suspected in the third, although he has not been confronted with it.

If this document were factual, then it would indicate negligence on behalf of the commanding officer, the unit security officer and the assistant unit security officer, in that they failed to act sooner in submitting a change-of-circumstance report and failed to charge and deal with me in accordance with the code of service discipline.

Also, if this document were factual, one would have to question the actions of the director of security clearances at National Defence headquarters in that he did not revoke or object to lifting the restrictions on my level 3, top secret security clearance, despite the alleged and numerous character flaws. Another possibility is that this is a false document.

As to the subparagraph regarding my family problems, to compare my family to the “makings of a soap opera”, whether it was meant to be facetious or not, is a contemptuous statement designed to exploit the personal tragedy of a subordinate.

For the record, I wish to inform the committee that my father, Mr. George Prusila, is not an abusive alcoholic, nor has he ever been an abusive alcoholic. This subparagraph is such a perverted distortion of reality it is beyond my comprehension. I find this report distasteful and unacceptable.

I complained to the unit harassment officer. He did not act on my complaint. Instead, a request for a career review board medical was made because it was claimed that I was mentally unfit for service. I have since been found psychologically fit for unrestricted duty.

If there is anyone who has doubts in regard to allegations that the Canadian Forces attempts to destroy the careers of soldiers who seek medical assistance, they should read my commanding officer's request for a career review board. I will now read the first sentence of paragraph 6 into the record:

This request for a career review board medical stems from the fact that Corporal Prusila has sought and received the care of mental health professionals, both civilian and military.

It would appear that the Canadian Forces are attempting to review my career because I sought medical attention.

A formal unit investigation was conducted in September 1996 which found no wrongdoing. Nor did it address the issues I brought forward. Brigade re-investigated this matter in May 1997. The second investigation contradicted the first in many issues of fact and found that “harassing language” occurred. The investigation did not address the issues I brought forward.

In June 1997, I submitted a third complaint to the area commander. In my complaint, I presented to the area commander the unpalatable choice of determining whether officers under his command were being negligent or were falsifying documents. I feel that this is the reason the area commander refused to act on my complaint in accordance with Canadian Forces administrative order 19-39, “Harassment”.

• 1430

After three months without a written acknowledgement and inaction, in September 1997 I requested that this matter be forwarded to the chief of land staff or the commander of the army. After 30 days and a request for acknowledgement, I had not received the reply from the chief of land staff.

I requested that this matter be forwarded to the Chief of the Defence Staff. In December 1997 I received a letter from the Judge Advocate General on behalf of the CDS, informing me that they acknowledge my “very serious allegations of wrongdoing in relation to negligence, fraud, and disgraceful conduct”. This letter goes on to inform me that an investigation will not take place and that I should resubmit my complaint as a redress of grievance and that this matter is not open for further discussion.

It is my understanding that the Judge Advocate General has two key roles. The first role is to act as the legal adviser to the Minister of National Defence and the chain of command. The other role is to administer military justice. It's also my understanding that the role of the Canadian Forces is to prepare for war and to carry out the direction of the Canadian government in events of emergency. The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces have no business administering justice.

The question I now ask the committee is: If a corporal makes allegations against members of the chain of command, will the Judge Advocate General administer military justice, or act as the adviser to the accused? In my situation, it would appear that the Judge Advocate General has no interest in bringing my superiors to justice.

In January 1998 I wrote a letter of concern to the Minister of National Defence regarding this situation. It would appear that he did not act on my concerns.

In February 1998 I was found psychologically fit for unrestricted duties, thus resolving a requirement for career review board. In March 1998 a career review board was ordered nevertheless, based on the false allegation that I made a crank phone call to one of the minister's staff at a very unreasonable hour.

My unit continued to commit acts of reprisals against me, which forced me to travel on a regular basis to Toronto from Sudbury without proper compensation; unfairly denied me my employment insurance benefits; disclosed confidential medical information to potential employers; concocted false reports regarding my security clearance; ordered my assisting officer in regard to this situation to be stood down; and committed other acts of reprisal.

Ever since I brought myself forward for medical treatment in October 1995 I have become entangled in a Kafkaesque nightmare. At first I thought it was my immediate superior who was harassing me. When I complained, I was ignored and slandered in confidential documents I wasn't aware of. The harassment continued. When I complained in a formal manner, a self-serving investigation declared that nothing was wrong, although it indicated that my commanding officer and the unit harassment officer were being negligent in the performance of their duties.

At this time I thought the brigade commander would deal with this matter. The brigade commander ordered a second investigation, which, although it contradicted the first investigation in many of the facts, was just as self-serving. My situation was not corrected. I was harassed out of my job, and didn't have it back.

The area commander had a reputation of being firm with military discipline. I had faith that he would deal with my situation fairly and justly. After three months, the area commander couldn't even be bothered to send me a written acknowledgement. I felt I had no choice but to bring this to the next level and inform the army commander.

The army commander and now the Chief of the Defence Staff portrays himself as the soldier of soldiers. If there was anyone who was willing to deal with a few bad apples, I thought it would be the new Chief of the Defence Staff. I was mistaken.

I figured the Minister of National Defence would do something, perhaps direct my superiors to take my allegations seriously and investigate my allegations. Once again I was mistaken.

I am a corporal in the reserves. That makes me one of the lowest ranks in the Canadian Forces. I sought medical treatment. Because of this I was discriminated against, harassed, had lies concocted against me and my family, and now I have the full weight of the Canadian Forces bearing down on me, trying to remove me from the system. And I understand why.

• 1435

The CDS is quoted as saying to this committee: “You never poke at the enemy; you hit the son of a bitch with your fist”. It is now apparent to me that the chain of command looks upon me, a faithful and loyal soldier who is a citizen of Canada, who has served the crown and Canada for 14 years, as the enemy and they are hitting me with everything they have.

If the standing committee is genuinely concerned with morale in the Canadian Forces, carefully examine the statements, actions, or in a lot of the cases the inaction of the senior command and the military justice system. The most cost-effective way to increase morale is to offer equal justice to all by making senior commanders truly accountable for their actions and inactions, reforming the military justice system so that it is transparent and seen to be just and by establishing an independent inspector general.

I have three sets of recommendations I would like to tell the committee. The first set of recommendations is to resolve the shortcomings in the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces so that no other soldier would have to go through the ordeal I have. The second set of recommendations I would like to pass on to you to pass on to the Minister of National Defence on how to resolve my personal situation. The third set of recommendations is for the soldiers who feel they need help.

I have the following recommendations to the standing committee. I recommend that the office of the Judge Advocate General be broken into two separate entities: one entity that acts as the legal adviser to the minister and the chain of command; the other entity, which is completely separate, responsible for the administration of military justice within the Canadian Forces. I also recommend that the office of the Judge Advocate General remain a part of the Department of National Defence for administrative and budgetary reasons; however, the Judge Advocate General should report to and be responsible to the Solicitor General while submitting annual reports to the Minister of National Defence and to Parliament. I further recommend that an independent inspector general's office be created for the Canadian Forces.

The role of the inspector general is to review and investigate reports of shortcomings within the Canadian Forces regarding leadership, morale and discipline. The inspector general's office should be totally separate from the chain of command and be accessible to any member through a 1-800 telephone number. The inspector general would report directly to the minister and submit annual reports to Parliament. I recommend that a policy be created whereby if a subordinate alleged wrongdoings that would be in contradiction of the National Defence Act or in violation of any other law, and a redress of grievance or any other complaint, the matter be forwarded immediately to the provost marshal for investigation and that the office of the inspector general be notified. Failure to bring forward allegations of wrongdoing to the provost marshal or the inspector general's office would be considered as and treated as obstruction of justice, with the offender being treated accordingly.

I have the following recommendations to the Minister of National Defence. In regard to my personal situation, I request that the Minister of National Defence follow one of the two sets of recommendations I present to him through this committee. As the committee has heard, serious acts of wrongdoing have occurred, and I have taken the full brunt of these acts. I just want my life back. I plead with the minister and this committee to deal with me in a fair, just and honourable manner. In March 1998 I forwarded an offer of settlement to the senior political adviser to the minister. This offer still stands. I wish to resolve this matter within the military family.

I can assure the committee that a settlement at this time would be the most honourable and cost-effective solution for the Canadian Forces to this most regrettable situation. The following is what I would want to resolve this matter at this time: (a) my job back, retroactively to April 1, 1996; (b) my legal fees paid in full; (c) all questionable documents expunged from my personnel files; (d) all records regarding poor performance and discipline between September 1, 1995, and the date of settlement be quashed and expunged from the record; (e) a senior commander of the Canadian Forces issues a letter of apology or a letter of regret to me with assurances that the Canadian Forces will not misuse its authority; (f) financial compensation for the unnecessary pain and suffering the Canadian Forces has inflicted upon me.

• 1440

In return, I would offer Canadian Forces the following: a nondisclosure agreement—moot, now, I guess; a statement that the matter has been resolved to the department's and to my satisfaction; I will resign and leave the Canadian Forces within a year of settlement, at a time of my choosing; and I will release the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence of all other actions, legal or otherwise.

If the minister is unwilling to resolve this matter in this fashion at this time, then I request that I be given a class B contract immediately, until the conclusion of an investigation into my allegations, and be suspended with pay. This will prevent any reprisals towards me.

I also request that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police be called in to investigate the allegations of wrongdoing that I have brought to the attention of the committee today.

My recommendation to the soldier: If you feel depressed or suicidal, get help. You are a lover, a husband or a wife. You are a son or daughter, a brother or sister, a mother or father. You are loved, wanted and needed. You are not alone. Whatever you are going through will ultimately pass. Have faith in the future.

If you feel that you cannot trust your superiors, or even your doctor, then don't. No one can demand your trust or loyalty. It must be earned on a daily basis. If need be, seek help outside of the military system. Although what I suggest is against official policy, I feel that it is more important that you get the help you need, regardless of from whom.

I wish I could support the chain of command, but until I see changes and attitude and actions of the Canadian Forces, I will continue to tell you to trust your instincts, and seek help from whoever you feel comfortable with.

The Canadian Forces shouldn't worry about soldiers who seek help. It's the soldier who doesn't who we all have to worry about.

I would like to thank the committee for allowing me to present my concerns. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me, right now or at your convenience.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I believe we have some questions.

Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you for your presentation, Corporal. You have a lot in there, and I appreciate especially your recommendations, not just dealing with your personal case but for changes that will help others deal with their case.

We will have a copy of the report you've just made, in the committee's Hansard. It will be recorded so I can have a look at that. It seems to summarize things that's a little bit easier to work with than the one here, so I appreciate that.

I want to ask you a question as to whether you've heard of others who have found themselves in similar circumstances. As you've been going through this yourself, have you had others come to you or have you talked to others who have found themselves being dealt with by the military justice system in a similar fashion?

Cpl Alan Prusila: Only anecdotally. I have no firm evidence of it. I've spoken to parents of people who have left the military.

One thing about the system is it is designed to be a single individual against the system. When you put in a reverse of grievance, it only deals with yourself, and it appears to me that the system is designed with procedural biases against the individual. I have to go to all the witnesses; I have to have them sign written statements, which puts them into an uncomfortable position because they fear reprisals.

I have spoken to a few journalists who have informed me that my situation is not unusual and that other people have pursued it as far as I have.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes, I've heard from others as well.

One of the things you recommended as a way to help improve this system is establishing the office of an independent inspector general, which was recommended in the Somalia inquiry.

I think it has been acknowledged to some extent, and not nearly enough, that the military justice system, as it is, isn't working that well. There is some legislation that has been presented, Bill C-25. Are you familiar with the legislation?

• 1445

Cpl Alan Prusila: I've had only a cursory look at it. I've haven't read the legislation itself, so I can't really comment on it. I wouldn't feel comfortable commenting on Bill C-25.

Mr. Leon Benoit: If you have a chance to go through and examine it, I would be very interested in your comments on it. It acknowledges the problems. I don't think it does very much to deal with them. That's my opinion. It certainly doesn't establish any independent body you could go to when you're in a situation such as the one you're in.

Cpl Alan Prusila: Back in May the committee heard from a colonel who was with the Judge Advocate General's office. I read it on the Internet. He recommended that the inspector general be appointed as an officer within the Canadian Forces, and someone brought that to issue.

I do not believe the Judge Advocate General needs to be an officer within the Canadian Forces. As a matter of fact, I feel that would be detrimental to the process of justice. When someone commits wrongdoing, be it code of service discipline or against the Criminal Code, it is in writing. You do not have to be an officer to look at the charges and allegations and the crime committed.

National Defence Headquarters is an integrated headquarters where we have senior bureaucrats in lofty positions, taking positions that were at one time held by senior staff officers. There's no reason why a judge advocate general could not be rotated or loaned to the department from the federal Department of Justice.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I'm not really asking you questions on your personal case. I've had a look at it and now have some information from you appearing here that I can go through as well. But do you acknowledge there is a need for an internal justice system to deal with a lot of issues that come up?

Cpl Alan Prusila: Definitely. I can recall a few years ago someone was portrayed as a whistle-blower because they went to the media. I can recall the Chief of Defence Staff commenting it was a pity this person didn't try to resolve the problem within the system.

I have attempted to resolve this matter within the system, all the way up to and including the Minister of National Defence. I've had quite a bit of correspondence from the Judge Advocate General's office, and each time I receive a letter from the JAG, it would appear he's speaking on behalf of the chain of command and has no interest in justice.

Once again, I've brought forward very serious allegations of wrongdoing to my superiors. If I were the person being accused of this, I would immediately rush to the military police and demand an investigation to clear my name. That hasn't occurred. No board of inquiry I know of has occurred, and no summary investigation into my allegations has occurred. I just what to know why.

Mr. Leon Benoit: From what you've said, though, the system has failed you in this case and it's failed others. But do you recognize that there is a need within the military for a system to deal with a lot of the disciplinary situations that arise?

Cpl Alan Prusila: When you say discipline, are you referring to a person chewing gum in uniform? I think the senior NCOs are capable of handling that. Unfortunately, I don't feel qualified to answer that question.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay. Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Corporal, were you ever charged with anything?

Cpl Alan Prusila: Do you mean in regard to the allegations of theft?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes.

Cpl Alan Prusila: No, I was not.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Are you still under medical treatment now? What's your status now?

Cpl Alan Prusila: I haven't been under medical treatment since June 1996.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): So you're cured of depression.

• 1450

Cpl Alan Prusila: I am cured of depression. As a matter of fact, annex O is the consultant's report from the psychiatrist at Petawawa, dated April 1998. I'll read you the second paragraph from the second page, just so you can get an idea of what's going on here:

He did show me extensive written notes that he submitted to higher authorities. There is nothing in them to suggest paranoia or inappropriate mental state at the time of writing. In fact he has produced documents that would require an explanation or perhaps an investigation. For example, he showed me two performance evaluations written on him by his unit that covered the same timeframe and came to entirely different conclusions. He says one of the documents have been falsified. He also tells me that one of the individuals at his unit was found guilty of falsification of documents. His ideas then, would certainly not be far-fetched.

This came from the military psychiatrist.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): In your mind, what brought on the depression? You've been a member of the reserves since 1984—

Cpl Alan Prusila: That's correct, sir.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): —and in 1985 you sought help for depression. Do you think this was brought on because you were in the armed forces—

Cpl Alan Prusila: Not necessarily.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): —or because of your personal life?

Cpl Alan Prusila: There was a combination of things within the military and within my personal life. My parents separated that year. The family homestead was sold off. Compounding that, I was on a leadership course on which I wasn't successful. There were a lot of things on the go at that time.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Are you still in the reserves now?

Cpl Alan Prusila: Yes, sir, I am. I'm currently—

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Do you have an outside job?

Cpl Alan Prusila: Yes, sir. I work at Business Depot as a computer consultant in Sudbury on a part-time basis.

In regard to my service, I'm still facing a career review board, ironically because I'm failing to follow proper procedure and I'm harassing the chain of command.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Wait till they find out you're here.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Cpl Alan Prusila: All I ask is that they look into my allegations. If they had done that, I guess I wouldn't be here right now.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): No, you wouldn't. Thank you. I appreciate it very much.

Cpl Alan Prusila: Thank you, sir.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Master Warrant Officer Earle Butt.

Master Warrant Officer Earle Butt (Individual Presentation): Members, fellow service members, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. My name is Master Warrant Officer Earle Butt. I'm a field engineer in the army.

I'm currently posted to Toronto, and I have been in the Canadian Forces for 21 years. For the most part, these 21 years have been exciting and extremely satisfying. I've had six different postings in four different Canadian provinces, West Germany, and two tours with United Nations forces.

I've been extremely fortunate with regard to promotions, soldiers I have worked for, and soldiers who have worked for me. I believe that we have some of the best men and women in the services in the world. With the exception of these last three years, I've been very proud to have served Canada.

A few years ago, I would never have considered standing here and speaking to you. It goes against everything that I feel and believe in with the military.

So what has changed? A few years ago, I had absolute faith in the military system and its leaders to look after and support its men and women and their families. Today, I no longer have that trust in the system, and I have a profound mistrust in the people at the top. I hesitate to use the term “leaders” because most of them now resemble politicians and bureaucrats rather than leaders—

Voices: Hear, hear!

MWO Earle Butt: —and seem to be too busy ensuring that their noses are kept clean to properly lead troops.

I believe that the change in my attitude began with the Somalia inquiry, when I observed NCOs and junior officers get on the stand and testify to what they saw or did not see, followed by a parade of senior officers who quickly coined the phrase “I don't recall” after glancing at their lawyers to see whether or not they should answer the question.

• 1455

This was capped off by our Chief of Defence Staff laying the blame on his subordinates and then resigning. Then, as the inquiry was about to delve into the world of our leaders, it was quickly shut down. But don't despair; we sent a corporal, a sergeant, and a major to jail. Surely we've punished all those responsible.

Shortly after that, the phrase “quality of life” was coined, and we were given renewed hope. I've yet to see one concrete example of a quality-of-life initiative affecting the soldier on the ground.

Maybe “quality of life” means having our soldiers, on return from a UN operation, turn in their clothing and equipment so the soldier going over can wear it, or cutting down on the number of uniforms but not asking the soldier which one they would rather keep. I would have worn my dress uniform today, but I'm waiting to be issued my shirt.

Recently I read an article in our new newspaper, The Maple Leaf, with regard to the Clothe the Soldier program. It talked about all that is happening with regard to new clothing and equipment, what is in the works, and what has already been issued. The majority of items that the soldier on the ground really needs were in the research and development phase, several years away. Some items were even close to going to contract, which means they're only a few years away. The only item that had already been issued is a new Gerber multi-tool, but by now most Canadians have picked one up at Canadian Tire for $50.

As I stated earlier, I am currently posted to Toronto, where we have a number of quality-of-life initiatives ongoing. For instance, the Department of National Defence has decided that the property that we currently live on is going to be sold to a developer for a housing project and we will be relocated. We are, however, being consulted and told that we may get new housing somewhere else on the old base property, but if not, it certainly won't be more than an hour's commute, maybe, and the new rent prices will better reflect those of the local economy—around $1,000 to $1,200 per month. That is double what the majority of us are paying now, and approximately a fourfold increase for a soldier who would be posted in from a base such as Petawawa.

A few years ago the base in Toronto closed, and at that time a memo was circulated, with a general's signature, telling us that there would be no reduction in services. Since then, we have lost our CANEX, our gymnasium, our curling club, our auto hobby club, our wood hobby club, the ceramics club, and numerous other services. For 18 months we did not even have gym facilities for our soldiers to keep fit, with the exception of the personnel posted to the area headquarters staff on Yonge Street and the Command and Staff College.

We now have gym facilities for our soldiers, but nothing for our families. A few months ago some of us tried to start up a wood hobby shop, and we were told we would first have to produce a profitable business plan. It's sad when this is what the military has come to, that the soldiers have to produce a business plan.

Today, the building I work in is being sprayed for ants and silverfish, and traps are being set to deal with the mice problem that we have. Yet our headquarters for the area is located in a modern apartment building on Yonge Street, to which we have to travel for all our administrative functions, normally about a 20-minute drive one way, and then parking fees.

Ladies and gentlemen, I wish very much that you could take the time to drive the 60 minutes to the base in Toronto.

Last month I received a phone call from a friend telling me that a corporal who had been with us in Yugoslavia had killed himself in the basement of his house in Valcartier. For a few minutes we talked about the other three soldiers we have known who had been in Yugoslavia who have killed themselves in the past couple of years.

All of the information that I read and the people that I talk to tell me that our suicide rate is no higher than the rest of the country. My trade probably has less than 900 NCOs in it. Four suicides in 900 seems a little high to me. Are we doing all we can do to help our soldiers? I don't know.

• 1500

I believe our soldiers are burnt out. When a commanding officer takes over a unit—and I speak now strictly from an army point of view, a field unit—he has two years to make his mark and that two years will probably decide his future. In that time, he strives to fit in as much as he can, and then he is off to a staff position somewhere. Meanwhile, a new commanding officer comes in and the cycle starts all over again. Add to that the drastic increase in the number of deployments over the past few years and the fact that we have now added nearly five months of pre-training to each deployment, and it doesn't make for a healthy situation.

A few years ago I read a book called Tarnished Brass, and read a section about a lady in NDHQ who had taken her staff to a retreat and hired a guru from California to teach them to play the bongos as a means of relieving stress from the Gulf War. Around the time she was being taught bongo playing at the crown's expense, I was picking what was left of a good friend of mine out of a truck that had run over a mine in Yugoslavia. A few days later, I was carrying a young kid who had lost two legs and an arm when he stepped on a mine as he was leading me into a minefield. For stress relief that afternoon, I had to go back into the minefield and pick up his legs, or what was left of them. But I felt justified, because when we left Yugoslavia our commanding officer was given a medal.

So what do we do? I certainly don't have all the answers, but I hope that as a result of what you are doing right now there will be some improvement. Maybe we should get our headquarters staff out of their office towers in downtown Ottawa and Yonge Street in Toronto and bring them a little closer to the people they command.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MWO Earle Butt: Maybe we should have all of our senior officers review the principles of leadership and review the definitions of accountability, responsibility, and what can be delegated.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MWO Earle Butt: Maybe we should try to convince the politicians that if they want us to go to hell-holes all over the world, then give us the resources to do the job and look after those who are left behind.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MWOEarle Butt: Maybe we should try something simple, like providing good, affordable housing and levelling out the rents so our families can go from base to base without having their pay cheques cut in half. Whatever we do, let's look after the people at the coal face first.

I must honestly tell you I do not have a lot of faith in SCONDVA. I guess in the military we have seen too many committees and inquiries over the past few years with little or no results. We heard too many terms like right-sizing, down-sizing, re-engineering and quality of life. I really hope I'm wrong.

Thank you very much for your time.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thanks very much, Warrant Officer.

You asked, what do we do? You suggested good, affordable housing, but you must have some other thoughts, too; you look like a very credible gentleman. You made an excellent presentation. I just want to pick your brains here for a second. What do you think? You must have thought about it.

MWO Earle Butt: I don't mean to sound bitter and frustrated.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): No. I mean, that's why we're here. We want to hear your thoughts.

MWO Earle Butt: It's a very frustrating time to be in the military. I believe we need to revamp the military justice system, that we don't need to be judged by people who are part of the system. That's one thing.

• 1505

Following the Somalia incident, we had a corporal go to jail. We had a sergeant go to jail. The sergeant got out of jail. Then, as part of the appeal by the crown, it was decided to send him back to jail; he hadn't done enough time.

A few years later we had a major go to jail. It almost seemed like a token. We sent two NCOs to jail, maybe we should send an officer to jail, too. But, you know, those people aren't the people who are responsible for the situation. Yeah, they may have committed a crime. However, in order for them to get to that point, there is an inherent problem with the leadership. The leadership in the Canadian Forces today is at fault. The leadership is not responsible. They are not accountable. And in some cases, it has run amok. We have a headquarters in Ottawa that is bigger than any of our brigades. I mean, what is the aim of the Canadian Forces? Is it to train managers at NDHQ, or to train soldiers, sailors, and airmen and women on the ground?

The frustrations today...like quality of life. I believe in quality-of-life initiatives, except that I haven't seen any. I've heard lots of talk. I see lots of new publications coming out. But take a look at Toronto, for instance. We've lost every single non-public-fund club we had. To try to get anything turned back on is just a headache. Nobody has the time. People barely have the time today to do their jobs. For the most part, you only pay lip service to the task at hand and then there's another task upon you. For the most part, it's crisis management.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I know this is probably a very touchy subject for you, but you can comment on it if you want. If you'd like to pass, I'll understand.

You mentioned the high suicide rate, and that's true. How do you think we could tackle that problem? Is it because when people come back from a tasking or come back from Yugoslavia, they're just left alone, the support system is not there for them? Is that one of the problems, or...?

MWO Earle Butt: I—

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): You don't have to answer this if it's difficult.

MWO Earle Butt: I don't mind, sir.

I really don't believe the follow-up support system is there. I think we pay lip service to it. You know, we have some briefings on return and now we brief the families before they go over and that sort of thing, but I don't think there's any follow-up.

I came out of Yugoslavia after seven months. I was attached to a unit in Germany. When I came out of Yugoslavia, I flew back to Lahr. The next morning I went to work and they said “Thanks very much. Thanks for coming out.” And then I was off to Canada. There were no debriefings, nothing. I arrived in Canada. There was a posting message on my desk and I had to be at my new base in seven days. I arrived at my new base, at that time a base where nobody had ever been to Yugoslavia. It was hard to associate. It's hard to even talk about it with somebody who hasn't been there.

I make a pretty good wage. The four people I knew in Yugo who committed suicide were all corporals. Some of them had three tours in Yugoslavia. It's not because they volunteer; it's because we don't have the resources. In the engineer trade today, we're the people who pick up the minefields. And in the engineering trade, it's just one rotation after another.

Right now in Petawawa, 2 CER has a squadron in Yugoslavia that will come out in the June-July timeframe and be replaced by another squadron in Yugoslavia, or another squadron from 2 CER from the same unit. They'll do their thing for a year. The next unit down the road will do it. We only have three units we can rotate through there. In the meantime, some of the young kids will be posted from one unit to the next and may be back on a rotation in 12 to 18 months.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Are you a family man?

MWO Earle Butt: I am divorced. I have two children.

• 1510

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Those postings obviously affected your family life, did they? What I'm getting at is.... Is there also support for families? It must be very hard on children and wives or significant others or whatever.

MWO Earle Butt: At nine o'clock last night, my neighbour, whose husband is in England right now on a course, came to me and told me her daughter was sick and her youngest daughter was sleeping and asked me if I could look after her. I went over and babysat while she took her oldest daughter to the hospital.

She had to wait four and a half hours at the Jane-Finch hospital in Toronto to see a doctor, and at two o'clock this morning I had to drive out and find a 24-hour drugstore so I could pick up her prescription for her.

You post somebody to Toronto, a young kid to Toronto; it's a high-cost area.

Yes, support for family life is important, and I don't believe that support is there now. It's one of the things that has fallen off with all of the downsizing. We have family resource centres and things like that set up, but they're not filling the gap between what we have now and what we used to have.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): We were in Petawawa—and I guess you're probably more familiar with this than I am—and one of the services they set up is a “rear party” that took care of or looked after the wives and the families.

MWO Earle Butt: I think on a larger base like Petawawa, Edmonton, Valcartier, and Gagetown, the larger army bases—and I certainly can't speak for the air forces or naval bases—each of the regiments or units that go will have a rear party. They attempt to look after the people who are left behind, provide support systems, and if people don't have driver's licences, drive them to get groceries. Yes, that's done.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): You also mentioned that you didn't think you had very much faith in committees and you've seen a lot of these committees. I hope we're going to prove you wrong.

MWO Earle Butt: I hope you do.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I think everybody who sits on this committee, regardless of what political party they belong to—and this is just my own opinion—really has the desire to do something. I think we've certainly caught the attention of not only the minister but various other government officials, plus the people, the hierarchy in the Canadian Armed Forces. I know they're working on some recommendations at the present time. So I certainly hope we get an opportunity to prove you wrong.

MWO Earle Butt: I hope you do.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I think Mr. Benoit has some questions.

Mr. Leon Benoit: First of all, thank you very much, Master Warrant Officer, for your presentation. I think it's an excellent presentation, and you've presented it well. I don't have a lot of questions, because you did make your points well.

I want to start by asking you what year you were in the former Yugoslavia.

MWO Earle Butt: I was there from March 1992 to October 1992.

Mr. Leon Benoit: The committee was just over there a week or so ago, and at one of the meetings we had with the men and women serving there, I noticed that a couple of people had come up complaining about not being able to get uniforms that fit, or having uniforms that were worn out and really beyond use. So I asked the question of the people there, and it's quite a large group, how many personally had problems getting uniforms—and we're talking the very most basic of equipment—that would fit. A majority of the people there put their hands up. Something that basic hasn't been dealt with yet, after all this time.

MWO Earle Butt: It's a horrible situation. We have very few of some of the new environmental clothing in the system—that is, the Gore-Tex jackets, the Gore-Tex boots, that sort of thing. It has been talked about for a number of years. So when somebody comes back from Yugoslavia now, or another tour—that is, Haiti or some place like that—they immediately have to come in, turn in all of their specialized kit or environmental clothing so it can be given to the next people going over. I don't understand why, in a country like Canada, this has to happen. It's part of the military system. We seem to research and develop everything to death.

• 1515

I came to Toronto four years ago. There's an establishment in Toronto called DCIEM, Defence and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine, and when I arrived in Toronto, they were trialling a rucksack. They're still trialling the damn rucksack. I could go down to Mountain Equipment Co-op and select a rucksack in a few minutes that would satisfy 95% of the soldiers in the forces.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MWO Earle Butt: So why the hell are we involved in research and development? Let the civilian sector do the research and development and let us get on with soldiering.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes, that issue of the rucksacks actually came up and was talked about as well. It is, as you say, hard to understand how it can possibly take that long. A $500 million program, Clothe the Soldier, is aimed at properly outfitting our men and women who are going overseas to serve. After $500 million and two years now, from what we heard in Bosnia, it hasn't been done yet.

MWO Earle Butt: Oh, yes, our soldiers now are allowed to purchase their own boots and wear them, if they feel they want a better quality boot than the one we have, until the Clothe the Soldier program manages to provide each soldier with a pair of new environmental boots.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes, well, if you're allowed to go out and buy them, then why is it taking the military so long to get them?

MWO Earle Butt: I don't know.

Mr. Leon Benoit: It's a question.

I had one more question. Again, you presented your case well. Your comment on SCONDVA and past committees is understandable, because really not a lot has been done from past committees of various types that have been struck and that have gone around to get information.

I do agree with the chair that the members of this committee, I believe every one, are really concerned about what we've heard and really want to do something about it. I do also believe the report we submit will reflect that. In fact I know it will, because if the main report doesn't reflect that, then we will submit, as an opposition party, a minority report. But I'm hoping we won't have to do that, and I don't believe we'll have to do that, because I think the committee is fully behind the changes.

So we'll put a good report in, I think. But ultimately it is up to the government of the day to decide what they're going to do with the report. And I can't tell you what they'll do.

I do believe, though, that this committee and what's happened are different from anything we've had happen in the past, because we've been hearing from a lot of people. What we hear is coming from real, identifiable people, and that's the kind of thing the media pay attention to. We need the media, especially as an opposition party, but even government MPs, to help get the message out to the general public, and through that mechanism, to put pressure on the government to finally act.

So I do have some faith that our report at least will be acted on to some extent. As for how much, I guess we'll know in two or three years.

Thank you very much for your presentation.

MWO Earle Butt: Thank you.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Next is PO Rick Fisher.

• 1550

Rick, the floor is yours.

Petty Officer Rick Fisher (Individual Presentation): Thank you, sir.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Petty Officer Rick Fisher and I've been in the Canadian Armed Forces for 15 years. During that time my family has endured my being away from home approximately eight months of every year and numerous transfers. At no time has my family ever complained, because they knew my going away was all part of being in the military.

During our last posting in Victoria, British Columbia, our children, Amanda and Jacob, were at the beginning of their school years. We were living in the military housing in Victoria, and a school located on the base offered a French immersion program. We believed, as we do now, that this would be a great opportunity for them to learn French, so we enrolled them and they worked very hard. My son, who is the oldest, at nine, is almost completely bilingual, and my daughter, at seven years of age, can speak, read, and write French quite well.

One year ago my family and I were transferred to CFB Borden. Once we received our posting message, I contacted the Borden school on base to pre-register our children in French immersion for the upcoming year. To my surprise, there was no French immersion available on base, nor was there French immersion in the entire Simcoe County school district.

We found out there were only three schools on base: English, French, and Catholic. I contacted the French school and found out that either my wife or I had to be bilingual or one of us had to have been born in Quebec to have our children enrolled in a French program. The Catholic school did not offer any French until later in the children's schooling.

We ended up contacting all the school boards in the area, including private schools, and there were no French immersion programs available for our children. In fact the closest schools we could find that offered French immersion were 90 kilometres away, in Bolton, just north of Toronto, and the other in Markdale, which is located south of Owen Sound.

Once we had located proper schooling, I talked to the administrative office in Victoria to see if we could live that far away from the base. I was told yes, as long as I put in the proper request, and that I may be entitled to travelling assistance. I contacted my superior in Borden, who also believed I would be entitled to some assistance.

My wife and I then spent many hours redoing our budget to ensure we could afford to survive with the extra expenses of higher rent and having to buy a second vehicle. All in all, the extra cost, compared to living in military housing in Borden, was approximately $800 per month. We knew it would be almost impossible to survive without the financial help that the travelling assistance would provide, which would be approximately $200 per month.

I then checked the regulations, and they stated, and I quote:

A member is expected to educate a child at the place of duty in the language of instruction consistent with the official language used in the member's home.

I also found another paragraph that stated that my children were entitled to the same education they were accustomed to.

So again I went back to my administration department, and a warrant officer there assisted me in writing my request for permission to live outside the geographical area of Borden and for travelling assistance. I then sent the request off to Borden. A few weeks later I received an answer, which only stated, “REQ at ref approved”, and since REQ is a short form for “request”, and according to military writing, it means either plural or singular, I assumed that both my requests had been granted. I again checked with the warrant officer in Victoria and my superior in Borden, and they both agreed that my request to live so far away from the base and for travelling assistance was approved.

My family and I located a home in a small village in Priceville, approximately 45 minutes from Owen Sound and 90 kilometres from Borden, which was considerably cheaper than living just outside Toronto. We then came from Victoria on our house-hunting trip, and I stopped in at my new office and reconfirmed with my superior that there were no reservations or problems associated with my request. He informed me there were none.

However, I learned in March of this year that the commandant of the unit I was transferred to had many reservations with regard to my receiving travelling assistance. This information was not passed on to me, as I said previously, until March of this year.

So we signed our one-year lease and I moved my family to Priceville, secure in the knowledge that although the considerable extra expense would be hard to handle, we would be able to manage. We then registered our children in a local French immersion program and I bought a used vehicle for my two-hour daily commute.

After getting the family settled, I arrived at work and soon found out that my request for travelling assistance had after all been refused. The one rule about my children being entitled to the same education they were accustomed to only applied to those transferred outside the country, and I was told that educating my children in French immersion was “a privilege and not a right”.

• 1525

It is astonishing to me that I can have my children educated in French in one part of the country and then turn around and have to endure unusual financial hardships so we can educate them in another part of the country.

As a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, I am critically aware of the importance of the French language. Our children are always looked upon as the future of our country. Without the ability to be proficient in both of our country's official languages, they will never be able to, if they so desire, work in the civil service sector, become a police officer, rise above the rank major in the Canadian Armed Forces, or do any number of jobs that you well know will require the ability to be bilingual.

The opportunity to learn both of our official languages was not easily available to my generation, but it is now much more so to my children's generation. I can only imagine that the Canadian Forces rules and regulations governing how I and others choose to have our children educated must have been written prior to French immersion schooling being available in the majority of communities across Canada. Therefore, this rule must be looked at and changed to help my family and the countless others who are either going through the same situation as we are or who will encounter it in the future.

Since arriving in Borden, my family and I have received virtually no support. I am continuing a year-long fight for compensation, in the form of a redress of grievance, which is now on its way to the ADM Personnel in Ottawa. My commandant and the commander of Training Systems Borden have commended me on wanting to provide my children with a bilingual education; however, they continue to state that the CF is not indebted to bear the cost of my decision.

The Canadian government and the CF preach the virtues of bilingualism. As well, the Canadian Forces often refers to the Canadian Forces member as its most valuable asset and suggests that improving the quality of life for the CF member and their dependants is top priority. Since my family and I have found ourselves in this situation, these statements truly seem to lack sincerity.

Before I finish, I would like to leave you with one final note. Our son has a poster in his room that was produced by the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages of Canada. On this poster it says: “In 56 countries, people speak to the world in English. In 33 countries, people speak to the world in French. Canadians have the best of both worlds.”

We are Canadians and we would like our children to have the best of both worlds, as the Commissioner of Official Languages of Canada states.

The one and only reason we are living where we are is so our children can continue with the French-language education they started on the Canadian Forces base in Victoria. Hopefully my speaking to you today will ensure that regulations are changed and additional support will be given to those families in the future who undoubtedly will encounter the same situation that my family has.

Thank you very much.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you, Mr. Fisher. I believe Mr. Benoit has some questions for you.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Actually, I have just one question. I think you stated your case well.

My question is, how did your commanding officer, or someone else who changed their position on this, explain their change in position on the travel allowance?

PO Rick Fisher: What they stated to me was that since the request, that reference approved was just allowing me to live outside the geographical area, and no commitment for travelling assistance was given to me. That was it.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So they were saying that what they had assured you of was something entirely different from what you had understood?

PO Rick Fisher: Yes.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Do you think there's any chance that there was just a misunderstanding?

PO Rick Fisher: I believe there was a lot of misunderstanding, but the Minister of National Defence, the CDS, and ADM Personnel have stated, in one of their CANFORGENs, that no military member will suffer due to the poor advice of administrative staff, either from their command or from NDHQ.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So you feel that you had that issue clarified?

PO Rick Fisher: Yes, I did, and I put in every one of my redresses, sir. What both my commandant and the commandant of CTS stated was they went by the regulations. They said this was the regulation and they owed me nothing, and they would not acknowledge that I had gone through the chain of command, talked to my superior. Everything I have done so far, in that fact, came back and said yes, it's approved. I have memos stating that, in fact, from my sergeant-major and from the administrative office in Victoria.

Mr. Leon Benoit: How confident are you that the position will be reversed so that you will receive a travel allowance?

PO Rick Fisher: When General Dallaire gets my next statement, hopefully he'll pay attention to that one.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay, thank you.

PO Rick Fisher: Certainly.

• 1530

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Mr. Fisher, do you think that this has turned into a provincial problem? Maybe not in all places, but in Ontario didn't the Canadian Forces turn the schools over and they're now run by the province?

PO Rick Fisher: They are in all military bases now.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Throughout the—

PO Rick Fisher: Yes, they are, sir, as far as I know, which was a major mistake. You can see that by the cleanliness around the school and the way our children are educated now.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): It's hard to believe that there's no French immersion in this particular area.

PO Rick Fisher: I was shocked when I found it. We didn't even look into it until May. I got my posting message in February. I think it was in March, actually, when we checked into it to register them, that we found out—and I received no support.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I'm sorry about that.

PO Rick Fisher: The main problem is that while my sergeant major and my major are very supportive, they've written their memos and everything else, but when it gets to the people who make the decisions, they look at their pocketbooks and would rather put lamp-posts outside the base than help out their members.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Obviously you've had some response back from your grievances.

PO Rick Fisher: It's been going on for a year, sir.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you.

PO Rick Fisher: Anything else, sir?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Unless you'd like to leave us with your brief.

PO Rick Fisher: I already have, sir.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you very much.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Next is PO Ronald Raymond.

Petty Officer Ronald Raymond (Individual Presentation): Good afternoon. I'm Petty Officer Raymond from CSL here in Borden.

First of all, I would like to thank the committee for coming here today in Borden. I would like to address you today to provide an overview concerning the loss of a significant sum of money on the sale of my house in Eastern Passage, Nova Scotia, when I was posted from Halifax to Borden in 1996. My story may sound familiar to many because it is very much like the story of Master Seaman Couture in a recent Maclean's article, which we have heard so much about. That was the incident where a posting from Halifax to Victoria in 1996 caused him and his family to lose $14,000 on the sale of their house in Eastern Passage, Nova Scotia.

As mentioned just a minute ago, I was posted from Halifax to Borden in 1996, when I was promoted to my current rank. I bought a house in Eastern Passage in 1994 and sold it in 1996. I lost $9,000 in the transaction. I had to borrow over $9,000 from the bank upon arriving here to pay off my mortgage in Eastern Passage, following a denial from NDHQ regarding my HEA application.

I did two requests for their consideration. These were done based on the recommendation of authorities here in Borden. Neither one resulted in any positive outcome. Just recently I have submitted a redress in the hope that with all the details very carefully spelled out and the appropriate agency investigated I will receive some satisfaction.

Needless to say, my family and I have been hit very hard with the loss of this money. When I was promoted in 1996, I thought that after 14 years in the CF I could start enjoying life, as I was going to get a raise and I had accumulated a bit of money. With the $9,000 loss, my life savings were gone. To be honest, I regret being promoted, as that is what brought about my posting.

Without going into the details and percentages of my loss and why I and others feel that I should be entitled to HEA assistance, it is NDHQ that has not seemed willing to recognize the reality surrounding my case. The fact is that some CF personnel can lose significant sums of money and then they and their families are taxed into a state of financial hardship. I'm not trying to get any more than what I feel is rightfully mine, but I'm trying to restore my life savings and get my family of a wife and two children back on the road to financial stability.

I'm not sure how much time I have left in the CF. I must start now to recover from this loss. I cannot really start until I offload this debt I am carrying, which came about due to the loss of money due to my posting in 1996.

• 1535

I would like to thank the committee again for taking the time to come to Borden and listen to the serious problems within our system. I'm confident that our testimonies have not fallen on deaf ears.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Mr. Benoit.

Mr. Leon Benoit: The committee has heard, I couldn't tell you how many times before, about losses on the sale of a house. Some are large like yours, and some are smaller but very significant to the families that are taking the losses. I believe $35,000 on the sale of a house was the largest loss we've heard about. Again, that was the loss of their life savings, probably more than their life savings. It's a problem that of course the program that was meant to deal with it takes care of in some cases, but we're finding that an awful lot of the cases just fall through the cracks; they don't qualify for some reason or another.

Yours probably was before the time that the program was actually in place. Would it not have been? Why did yours not qualify for the...? I forget the name of the program just now.

PO Ronald Raymond: I went under the guaranteed home sales plan with the military and lost $9,000 on that program when I bought the house. But at the same time, in Eastern Passage you had new houses being built, and if you bought a new house in Eastern Passage you'd get your GST and PST back, which people use as their down payment—so why would somebody by a second-hand used house? And then CFB Shearwater was downsizing at the time and I was told by NDHQ that there was no decline in the market in Eastern Passage at that time. To qualify for HEA you must have 10% decline in the area. And I have a letter from my real estate agent stating that there was no house bought and sold in the same timeframe as mine in this area, so DND had to go out of the area to compare.

Mr. Leon Benoit: So did you have more than one appraisal done on the house?

PO Ronald Raymond: There were three appraisals done.

Mr. Leon Benoit: There were three appraisals done, but they had to do them from outside the area, so you feel they weren't valid appraisals?

PO Ronald Raymond: Correct.

Mr. Leon Benoit: We've heard of this same problem actually occurring quite frequently in Petawawa. The appraisals just don't seem to match what the market is, for one reason or another, so people incur losses when they feel that in fact if the appraisals were accurate they would qualify under the program and take much less of a loss.

So the reason for it is the appraisal, pretty well?

PO Ronald Raymond: Yes, sir.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you very much, Mr. Raymond; I appreciate you being here. Thank you.

PO Ronald Raymond: Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): George Myatte.

Mr. George Myatte (Individual Presentation): I don't have a big fancy speech because I wasn't too sure what this was going to be about. But after listening to a few people here I do have a few points I'd like to bring up.

One of my first points is what George mentioned himself about the veterans. I think it is absolutely disgraceful the way this country has looked after the men and women who have fought these wars. Considering we can afford to take 250,000 immigrants in a year, I'm sure we can afford to look after our veterans.

One of the other points I'd like to make, or ask you gentlemen up here about, is once this is all finished and is all said and done and we've spent another umpteen million dollars of the taxpayers' money, when are we actually going to have some answers? When are things going to change? It seems to me that every point that everybody has brought up here, including the sergeant major who was up here talking a little while ago, Sergeant Major Butt, are all legitimate problems that each and every one of us feels. Yet nothing is done about it; nothing ever changes. No matter how many committees, no matter how many talks we have, it always stays the same. What I'm really concerned about is when it's going to change. What are you going to be able to do about it when you get back to Ottawa? That's my question to you.

Voices: Hear, hear!

• 1540

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I can tell you that I know we'll wrap up our hearings in the next couple of weeks. Over the summer, the report will be written. I believe it will be presented to the House of Commons in the first couple of weeks in September 1998.

Hopefully, we won't drag our feet too long on this particular issue because, as Mr. Benoit said, it's very important especially to members of the committee. I think there's enough will in the committee and in the opposition parties to make sure that the government will do something. I think we all want to do something.

Mr. George Collins: There's an election coming up.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): That's not for another three or four years.

I think we will have something concrete. I know we've had discussions with various political officials, and I know that they are also keeping track of what's going on. They have a basic idea of what we're going to be recommending.

So I think there's a will, not only in our committee, but also, I would hope, within the military itself that something would happen in the late fall of this year.

Mr. Benoit, you might want to comment on that.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes.

Of course I can't tell you when this will be acted on, as that's up to the government. But as a member of the opposition, it is our responsibility, particularly as the official opposition, to push the government in every way we can to act and do so as soon as possible. We have been doing that, and we will continue to do that. We will, as this report is written, increase our effort.

These types of issues, again, as I explained before, are very personal issues. They're the kind that the media and public can grab onto and understand. That's important, because the media plays an extremely important role in forcing government into action on issues like this.

We will do everything we can.

Mr. George Myatte: I hate to cut in, but I think the problem, like a lot of the problems that frustrate us, is that they involve common sense.

It's things like the rucksack. Here we have an establishment that's spending multi-millions of dollars. Look at our uniforms. Just a little while ago, we gave away our work dress. We went from our work dress, and we had different CFs. We can't afford to buy combat gear, but you can afford to buy fancy dress uniforms. We have two or three of them. Two months later, they take the badges off, they put the badges back on, and they give us a different uniform. It's ridiculous, and everybody in this room knows it, yet nothing ever changes.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Mr. Leon Benoit: I agree.

Mr. George Myatte: Maybe while I have the microphone, I'd just like to take your time just to bring up another point. I wasn't really prepared for this, but consider our career managers. I don't know if you heard about these before, but this affects everybody in the room.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Oh, we heard lots about them.

Mr. George Myatte: It's ridiculous. We think that they're up in Ottawa to protect us and look after us.

I'm an admin clerk now. I've been to several briefings where they told us that we are our best career manager. They said it I don't know how many times. I assume that means I should talk to the individual who is responsible for looking after my career. That makes sense to me anyway.

I e-mailed the lady there the other day in Ottawa. I told her what I would like and said that maybe she could help me out. I understand the position in the forces right now. There's a freeze on postings. I understand that. I asked whether they could help me out with a posting to London, Ontario. I asked her to get back to me and let me have a little information.

She writes back to the person who is responsible for me on the base. The way I assume that she sent the information back to me was through a boss of mine so that he could basically, as we say in the military, shit on me for going directly to her.

She didn't give me any information at all. She didn't tell me that there were so many positions in London or anything like that.

What she did, to be quite honest with you, was insult my intelligence, because I already knew what she told me. I was looking for a little information and to see if she could help me out. I can guarantee you that probably everybody in this room has the same story with career managers. It really frustrates us when we go to those people who are supposed to be looking after us and they give us that kind of garbage.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I'll respond to that, but I want to first of all, finish my response to your question about when is something going to happen as a result of this report. I can tell you that you're not going to see all the changes that are obvious and that make sense quickly. We know that. It's going to take some time.

But I do think it's critical—really critical—that some action is taken on some of the key issues very quickly just for the reason you stated, which was that you have no faith that anything is going to happen.

• 1545

Morale isn't good in the forces right now, and if in a year members of our forces see no significant action as a result of this report, then we in fact will have done more harm than good.

Mr. George Myatte: But I think the problem and what leaves people very frustrated is how much money it's costing. With the money people are spending in Ottawa for these things, you could afford to buy us the uniforms that we need to be going operational. Think of the money on the programs that you guys do studying and researching. It's enough to make the taxpayer sick to his stomach, it really is. No offence to you, but when I think of how much money is taken off my paycheque every year in taxes and how you're spending it—it's not you particularly, but the government—and how they're not accountable for that money they're spending, it absolutely makes me sick. It really does.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I want to ask a question to follow up on that. Have you had a committee that has travelled to your base before asking you—

Mr. George Myatte: Don't get me wrong, what you're doing is very admirable, and I don't want you to think that I'm saying anything different, but I just mean this as a whole, in general, not you particularly. What you're doing is a pressure relief for a lot of us to come down here and talk to you. It's a very good thing, so don't take me the wrong way there. I'm just talking about Ottawa, these studies, and the military in general.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay. Now as for career managers, we heard from someone this morning in our briefings who said exactly what you said. He said that the men and women in the forces are their own best career managers.

Mr. George Myatte: Right.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Second, their commanding officers are the next most important link in managing a career.

The career managers really are only there to accommodate when they can when there are conflicting positions with the commanding officer who has asked to have a person fill the position that they need filled. Sometimes the commanding officer from a base will ask for an individual by name or sometimes may just say they need this filled quickly. Then on the base that this person is currently posted, you may have the commanding officer saying they need him here. They say they don't want to lose this person, or this person doesn't want to go to that new posting. So on the one hand you have the commanding officer on another base as the one who wants someone saying that they want this particular person or they want this position filled quickly, and then on the other hand, the present commanding officer of that individual may say something different, so the career manager is kind of stuck in the middle.

Mr. George Myatte: Right.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Now these career managers obviously can't all be bad people.

Mr. George Myatte: No, I'm sure they're not. We all understand that it's very complicated, but we expect a career manager to find out all the information and come back, you would think, to report to us genuinely. They could tell us that they tried to help me out, but they can't do this because these people want me here and this is the way it's going to be. We're in the military, so we do understand that. But we expect them to be working for us as best they can and report back to us to help us out.

Sometimes they can't, obviously.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I don't want to sound like I'm defending career managers. I have no reason particularly to do that, as a matter of fact, except that I want to be fair.

Mr. George Myatte: Certainly.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I do think that a couple of other factors come into play. One is that they are really overworked and overloaded. Former career managers have come before this committee on different occasions to say that they were career managers. Part of the reason that they couldn't provide the service they wanted to provide was this conflict between commanding officers. Second, there was this fact that they're just overworked. They're dramatically overworked.

Now others, no doubt, really don't care as much as they should, and that's been acknowledged too.

So it's probably all of those factors together that lead to what is a serious problem. We've heard this loud and clear. I think career managers are probably even more despised than politicians and lawyers. That's in the military anyway.

Mr. George Myatte: Pretty close.

Mr. Leon Benoit: That's really getting low.

Okay, thank you very much.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I just want to comment on that, because this is kind of a pet project of mine. I'll be very honest, I think most career managers are very insensitive people.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I know I get into a lot of trouble. I got into an argument this morning with a gentleman. I think his name was Hardiman. I found out he was a career manager.

I'll just let you know how things work. Being a member of the government, it's a little on the frustrating side.

• 1550

We brought this up in front of the Chief of Defence Staff, and of course we had this big argument with him. I don't think he appreciated some of the language I was using to describe career managers. Nevertheless, a lot of these guys would say “If you don't like it, get out”, which is just incredible.

Mr. George Myatte: And they would insult you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes, they do. In other cases, it's just denied. There's no reason, they just do it.

Because of some of the comments, hopefully they will become a little more sensitive to the needs of the everyday Canadian Forces personnel. They are a little overworked, obviously, but I think they could still be human beings and give people a definite answer one way or the other.

Because of all the flak and criticism we've heard about career managers, I think on Wednesday of this week they're going to be before the committee, so it will certainly be an interesting afternoon. I share your thoughts and think something has to be done so they show a little more compassion to people. I think right at the moment they're not doing it.

Mr. George Myatte: They're not doing it at all. I think if she had taken the time to respond to me, she could have passed me the information I asked her for.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes, she sure could have.

Mr. George Myatte: That's the kind of stuff that really annoys people. She told me something I already knew.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I'll give you an example. The Chief of Defence Staff—this is kind of interesting—because of the questions I asked, and I brought a specific case to him, called me and asked me about the specific case. He was going to look into it and get back to me. It's now been a month. I don't believe I've heard from him, and this is the Chief of Defence Staff. So it gives you an example of what's happening and how frustrating it is.

Mr. George Myatte: That's right.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you very much.

Mr. George Myatte: Thank you.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): With this cheering and laughing, I'll probably get back and find out he called today.

Next is Master Warrant Officer Fernand Baillargeon.

Master Warrant Officer Fernand Baillargeon (Individual Presentation): Good afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen, I am Master Warrant Officer Fernand Baillargeon, company sergeant major of officer training company.

We used to have an unofficial motto in the Canadian Forces that said it all—“There's no life like it”—but suddenly it faded away. Why? Is it because there is no more life in it?

My point today is no different from anyone else's. My opinion, which is shared by many of my co-workers, is the diminishing of the quality of life in the Canadian Forces is related to the loss of our dignity. When I joined the profession of arms over 25 years ago, it was a profession to be proud of, a profession to which people dedicated their lives, hearts and souls. Unfortunately, it seems no longer this way. The pride of being a member of the Canadian Forces is no longer the reason why people join.

What caused this? For a start, it is the constant negative attack by the media and the fact that our government gives the impression of accepting it without a fight. Next, there is the point that we are becoming the laughingstock of our allies. This was born of a statement made by a senior British officer on the state of readiness of combat and readiness of our forces.

Do you understand how morale is affected when we are called the “Kool-Aid brigade” and the “can't bat”? Other reasons are the lack of equipment or gear and kit, or expenditures on things that do not need fixing or upgrading. There is no money for training ammo or training time, but there are enough computers in my unit for everybody to have two or more.

• 1555

Finally, what does that mean for personnel recruiting and training? We seem to be accepting people who do not meet the Canadian Forces minimum standard of medical and physical fitness. Some of them are financially or administratively a burden on the military community from day one. Unfortunately, the instructional staff or order staff are forbidden the use of disciplinary or administrative tools that would correct the situation and prepare them for the hardship of real operation.

Canada needs to commit itself to the Department of National Defence in the same way we commit ourselves to Canada. The government must provide a firm policy on national defence, decent equipment, kits, training tools, and the community and family support that will allow us to improve our professional standard and reinstall the pride in the phrase “There's no life like it”.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Woods): I believe Mr. Benoit has a question.

Mr. Leon Benoit: You said part of what has caused the problem of morale in the military and being proud to be a member, which you once were—when you joined, you said you were proud to be a member, not so much any more—are the constant attacks by the media and the government's lack of reaction or defence of what is seen in the media, or something along that line. Could you just elaborate a little on that?

MWO Fernand Baillargeon: Every time something comes up in the local papers, or even in the national papers, we see big headlines on how bad we're doing. If anything good is done, or, as Master Warrant Officer Butt has presented, people have lost their lives in the former Yugoslavia or another country, that is three lines at the back of a paper.

We have a new paper in the Canadian Forces, The Maple Leaf, and everybody is supposed to get their PR from it. This base has 500 copies for 3,500 people. I've never seen it. There is nothing coming out to say you've done well or what's going badly. Nobody comes up and says this is not really the way it happened, or it's not loud enough that we can stand up and say you've heard it.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Is part of the problem too that when there is an award given, it seems to most often be given to the top-ranking people who were involved, and not to those in the lower ranks who were equally as involved? Do you see that as a problem as well, or not?

MWO Fernand Baillargeon: It could be, but also I think the lower ranks deserve the same air time in receiving their awards as the leadership.

Mr. Leon Benoit: On another line, you talked about recruiting, training, and standards. You said that some of the people who are being recruited now aren't meeting standards.

MWO Fernand Baillargeon: Yes, sir.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Before we get into that, and I'm going to get into that, do you feel that standards have been lowered, so many of the people getting in are meeting standards because the standards have been lowered, but they are still not up to a level that is adequate for the positions in the military they're taking?

MWO Fernand Baillargeon: I tell a lot of people that there's only one standard for the Canadian Forces. The minimum standard for the Canadian Forces should be the standard of the highest probable enemies the Canadian Forces have. To train at the lowest level here in this country and accept anybody who wants to come in means nothing when I'm in a location where the people who are being trained have no human rights and train daily to destroy an enemy, and we are going out there with people who do not meet the standards of any of that training.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Just for clarification now, are you aiming those comments particularly at women being recruited?

MWO Fernand Baillargeon: No, sir. I mean them for everybody. We have a standard for the physical fitness and medical fitness for people.

For instance, I was running a course a month ago and we took people out for a morning forced march. After a good stretch, we travelled approximately 500 metres at a fast past, with helmets and rifles. By the time we were at the bottom of the hill, two people had suffered asthma attacks, one person was dropping off because of their knees, and others were starting to lose distance. We asked them why they were in the forces, and they told us they had joined like that.

• 1600

Mr. Leon Benoit: So they obviously hadn't.... They admitted they hadn't met much of a standard when they joined.

MWO Fernand Baillargeon: The recruit training people didn't screen them enough during their recruit training to achieve the standard that should be met by a service person of today.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I wanted to make a comment.

We had a top-ranking officer, a general or an admiral—I'm not sure which—before the committee somewhere across the country, toward the east, who, when I asked about the standards and whether standards were being lowered to accommodate women, said no. In fact he said the standards had been raised to keep women out and now the standards were being lowered to make them more reasonable. To me, that was a strange explanation. This person acknowledged that standards had been lowered but he claimed they really had been lowered only to a level that was comparable to what had been in place before they'd been artificially raised to keep women out of the forces. How do you feel about that?

MWO Fernand Baillargeon: I think the only thing that's been changed more often than the uniform is the standard in the Canadian Forces.

Some Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay. I understand that. There have been a lot of uniform changes.

Thank you for your presentation.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you, Master Warrant Officer.

Next is Captain Lynn Stoddart.

Captain Lynn Stoddart (Individual Presentation): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Captain Lynn Stoddart from base supply, Borden.

I wanted to speak to the committee about the lack of overnight child care expenses for single parents in the military when we have to proceed on temporary duties. I can tell you that we are able to claim overnight child care in only one instance; that is when we're on a house-hunting trip. I'm sure you're aware that we travel more frequently than just to make a house-hunting trip.

There are two responses to a single military parent when they go in to speak to a supervisor about this. The supervisor will say “Get a support net” or “Claim it on your income tax”. Those are two very naive responses.

First of all, a support net takes considerable time to build, and it falls apart every time you move, or every time your caregiver moves. Most of us are also posted away from our families and cannot rely on grandparents to come and help out. For instance, who's going to pay the airfare for grandma to come from Newfoundland? Also, some grandparents are too aged or some are still young enough to have full-time employment and are not available to come and help out.

In terms of claiming overnight care on your taxes, regular day care costs are so prohibitive that it uses up your entire allotment. For instance, for children under seven, that's $5,000 a year. You may well have had to fork out $6,500, so you've already used up your income tax allotment.

I have two solutions to offer to this problem. Accord military single parents the entitlement to claim the same expenses that our public service counterparts are entitled to, as per Treasury Board travel regulation, paragraph 7.71. I have a copy of that for you. Stop discriminating between the military members and the public servants. This discrepancy is causing confusion, because many people think we can claim this expense and try to charge a higher rate for overnight care when approached to look after our children. Secondly, it's causing bitterness among members who realize that the DND policy is different from the civil service policy.

Secondly, I believe we should establish at our Canadian Forces bases accommodation for members to house their children while on TD. Borden has such accommodation, but you have to book months in advance to secure it. Not all bases offer this type of accommodation. Furthermore, due to schooling, not everyone would be able to take advantage of it. Those with pre-schoolers, or if the TD happened to be during a school break, that would work out fine.

• 1605

Simply put, it's much less stressful to travel with your children than to leave them with someone you may not know very well. The family resource centres are at least helpful in finding temporary day care in such instances.

In terms of the action that has been taken in the past on the matter, let it known that military single parents have put in claims for overnight care of their children and have been refused because the Treasury Board regulation does not apply to them.

Also, five years ago my supervisor phoned DCBA to discuss this and was told many members had redressed it and that defence military council had agreed in principle, and further, a CANFORGEN was to be released with the details of the new entitlement, but that it would not be retroactive. Five years have passed, and nothing has changed. The personnel newsletter and a couple of military benefits messages have been released stating that a military single-parent benefit would be promulgated. No details beyond that have accompanied that statement.

It is long since time to correct this situation. Failure to do so puts unnecessary stress on military single parents, causing many to avoid TD trips and therein shirk their responsibilities because they cannot afford the additional cost for overnight care.

I'll leave that document with you. I was also asked to drop off another document, which concerned the guaranteed home sale plan, which you've already heard about, and the pension benefits.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you, Captain.

Would you clarify a couple of things for me? You said accord the same expenses as.... I didn't finish. I was trying to write so fast that I couldn't get it all. You were looking for the same expenses as what, the civil servants?

Capt Lynn Stoddart: That's correct. In the Treasury Board regulation, if your child is left with a friend, you would get $10 an evening towards that child's care; $15 a night for nannies or housekeepers who normally look after your child during the day; up to $30 each night for individuals at arm's length; and $55 per night for each child left in the care of a bonded sitter. Those are reasonable expenses. I'm normally able to negotiate a fee of about $20 per evening, but as you can appreciate, after two or three weeks TD, that's very expensive.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Regarding accommodation, you were saying that on TD, you have to give it a month in advance, locally. Is that—

Capt Lynn Stoddart: I have a friend who's coming in October and they told her there'll be something available for her then, but currently our emergency house is full. So if you had to come next week, there would be nothing available here for you, as I understand it.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): What about you? If you go on TD, how does that work? Do you have to phone ahead? How quickly do you find out that you're going?

Capt Lynn Stoddart: Sometimes you get an hour's notice. So I've always been very clear with my supervisors that I require at least a couple of days' notice to make arrangements.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Has that worked out fairly well?

Capt Lynn Stoddart: Yes, that has worked out in my case.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): You talked about this new entitlement, and it hasn't come forward yet, at least to your knowledge, right? There's nothing that—

Capt Lynn Stoddart: I checked this morning, and as far as the person I spoke to at DCBA, they hadn't heard. They had heard that it had been staffed but it had been turned down.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): It had been turned down?

Capt Lynn Stoddart: Yes.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Okay.

You've probably travelled around a bit. What about some of the other countries? Have you any idea how the U.S. does it, or Britain, or Germany, or anything like that?

Capt Lynn Stoddart: No, I'm sorry, I can't speak to that at all.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Okay, thank you.

I think Mr. Benoit has something.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I have a question. Do you have a copy of the schedule you explained in your brief?

Capt Lynn Stoddart: Yes, I do.

Mr. Leon Benoit: My question is, exactly who does that schedule apply to?

Capt Lynn Stoddart: It applies to civilian members who are employed by the public service. In other words, the Treasury Board regulation would apply to my civilian counterparts, but not to me.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Oh, really?

Capt Lynn Stoddart: Yes, really. It's extreme discrimination.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I hadn't picked that up along the way. We've heard about this before, and that's something I really appreciate you bringing to our attention. Thank you.

Capt Lynn Stoddart: Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you very much, Captain.

• 1610

Next is Beverly Wheeler.

Ms. Beverly Wheeler (Individual Presentation): I'm Beverly Wheeler, a former serving member of the Canadian Armed Forces.

I'm here because my in-laws have asked me to be here. The papers from Monday, May 11, quote an Olympian stating that his main income is $800 a month from Sport Canada, and this Olympian believes that Canadian athletes are fed more poorly than our modestly paid military members. “At least the military gets their housing and meals paid for. We have to pay for ours.”

Voices: Oh, oh.

Ms. Beverly Wheeler: Come on! Everybody in this room knows we don't get off with respect to anything. We pay higher taxes than most. We get nothing for free other than maybe the clothes on our backs. But then again, we have to pay for them anyway, because we pay taxes.

My in-laws' question to the board is this: How can we get it across to the civil sector all over the whole world that the Canadian Forces doesn't get things free? It's very important to note that we're deployed everywhere in the world and, like the captain said, on a moment's notice. These people don't realize we're human. They figure we're machines.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Excuse me. I just have a question. Who were you quoting there? It's from a newspaper, I can see that.

Ms. Beverly Wheeler: It's from The London Free Press. It's written by Kerry Diotte, a reporter for The Edmonton Sun. I also have it from The Wiarton Echo.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Could you just give me the date on the paper?

Ms. Beverly Wheeler: Monday, May 11, 1998.

My in-laws are just really upset because they've helped us along the way. It's been a long hard struggle. They just feel that we're being done an injustice by the input that the civilian organizations, I guess, are putting against us.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you.

Voices: Hear, hear.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Master Warrant Officer Grant Mack, please.

Master Warrant Officer Grant Mack (Individual Presentation): Good afternoon. Thanks for coming.

I must say it's a little more tame than what I thought it would be.

Voices: Oh, oh.

MWO Grant Mack: Beverly just stole some of my thunder, I'm afraid.

I've been doing this for pretty close to 25 years now. Over that period of time I've had ample opportunity to talk to civilians. As Beverly says, their impression is that we get free housing, that we don't pay income tax and that we get free clothing, free food—you name it.

The other thing I was interested to see in Maclean's probably three weeks or a month ago was that we get free airfare as well—not in my 25 years, anyway.

But what I want to know is if there is any way that you can show a comparability in your report, sirs. Can you compare a corporal's family, a sergeant's family and, say, a major's family, in three geographical locations, with respect to the things we can't control that come out of our pay? It seems like every time we've been given a raise it's been taken away from us.

I saw a graphic some three weeks ago which showed that the NCOs had received an increase of 11.97% or something. But I'd like to see it since 1992 or even going back to 1989. Just show what has come out of that and how far behind the eight ball we are, so you have some accurate method of giving us a pay raise. Or don't give me one—give one to my corporals. I'm sure they have to be at least 15% to 20% behind the eight ball—and 11% ain't making it.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I understand we do have some of that material that you requested about the pay raise and the difference. I don't know if we have it all, but I'm sure that we will get that and do it.

• 1615

MWO Grant Mack: That's based on the gross income, but look at the rent increases in that timeframe in three different geographical locations for three separate families: a corporal with three kids and a wife who can only get a part-time job; a senior NCO, some sort of warrant sergeant, it doesn't matter; and probably a major. It should be something like that.

But it's almost ridiculous to think that 11% is adequate.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes. Well, as you point out, there's such a discrepancy from the east coast to the west coast, and even once you get inland in Winnipeg or Edmonton....

It's a good suggestion and I'm sure we're going to do it. I know we have some of it, but I don't think we have all of it, as you pointed out. It's something that the committee will have a look at.

MWO Grant Mack: Interestingly enough, we just got another raise not too long ago. For a corporal, it averaged about $43 a month. For somebody just being posted in this APS, the rent's automatically going up $50, so they just lost $7 on that raise.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I know.

MWO Grant Mack: The other thing, sir, is that we've dispensed with what used to be the PERI staff. Now there are user fees for everything that used to be a sort of given for our families. You should factor that in as well. Every time we take our kids to the pools or a ball diamond or the hockey rink, we're going to pay extra for that as well.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): We're looking at a lot of different ways for compensating people. While I have you here—and you are a master warrant officer with 25 years in the forces—I'd just like to get your impression about whether it's a good idea or not. For the lower ranks, which you mentioned, we found out that there are different levels, obviously, and I think the captains have ten levels.

MWO Grant Mack: Incentives.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Okay. And right now, corporals and enlisted people have four. Right?

MWO Grant Mack: Yes.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): What do you think of increasing the enlisted levels to seven from four? Do you think it would do any good?

MWO Grant Mack: Are you going to give us a $5 raise and give it to us in four payments?

Voices: Oh, oh.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): No.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I don't consider this a laughing matter. I'm considering something that is meaningful. It's just a suggestion and I'm asking you for your input. If you think it won't work, say so. If you think it's something that the committee could look at, then I'd be interested, one way or the other. Actually, a corporal brought it to my attention this morning. I thought it wasn't a bad idea to put the incentives to seven for enlisted people, up from four.

I don't know about the monetary thing, about whether it would be $100 or $150 or whatever. I'm just using those numbers. It's just something to look at.

MWO Grant Mack: No, sir, I don't think that's a solution at all. I think that if you really wanted to make a substantial increase to our benefits, one of the items you should look at is that as soon as a guy has enough time in the service to be eligible for a pension he should cease paying EI.

Voices: Hear, hear!

MWO Grant Mack: That would give him a 9% or 10% raise right there.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): That's a good idea.

Now that we have you here, do you have any other ideas?

MWO Grant Mack: I have a few. Maybe I could submit them to you in writing—

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes, by all means. We would appreciate hearing from you.

MWO Grant Mack: —if I could get an address.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes, you'll get one. We'll make sure you get one.

MWO Grant Mack: The other thing that I was concerned about when I read Maclean's was that somebody responded from Calgary or somewhere who was an ex serving member and talked about our gold-plated pensions. We pay into that as well. That's not something that's given to us.

• 1620

Mr. Leon Benoit: Master Warrant Officer, you've brought up two issues here. One is the pay—the small increases in pay, the relative increases in pay. But then you're saying that even when there's been an increase, it's been eaten up by additional costs, such as rents on PMQs; some bases pay more for meals, considerably more than in the past; you're paying for sports facilities and that type of thing. There's just a whole new list of fees that are being paid directly, so the pay increase, or a lot of it, is eaten up.

And then of course there are increased taxes, increased CPP premiums, and high UI premiums, which, as you said, you'll never be able to collect, or once you're in a pensionable position, at least, you can't collect.

All of these things have been brought up and are things that should be considered. You talked about putting them in a graphic form. We've received them from a couple of different people in a graphic form, in a chart form.

The other thing that has come up in terms of pay is the lack of promotions. Just because of the way the demographics are in the military right now, it's really difficult—impossible, it seems, in some places—to expect you're going to get a promotion as a way of increasing pay.

The issue of lateral pay progression, which has been talked about in the military for a long time, has come up in several places as a way to reward people. First you're getting recognition, because you're becoming better at whatever you're doing, and you're getting rewarded as well with a pay increase. That's a way of getting pay increases in times when there really just isn't the ability to move up the ranks, because we have a lot of people at the higher ranks and very few moving out.

What do you think of that type of thing, lateral pay progression, where you're rewarded for getting better at something and for getting more experience at something?

MWO Grant Mack: That's a great idea, because not everybody wants to be a bureaucrat or an administrator. There are some guys who just like to stay on the tools and get paid for the courses they take to better themselves. It's a great idea.

Voices: Hear, hear!

Mr. Leon Benoit: Okay, thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you, Master Warrant Officer.

MWO Grant Mack: I have just one more thing.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes, sure.

MWO Grant Mack: When you do that little dynamic, the graphic, it's my impression that inflation is based on a consumer price index concerning six or nine different products. If you did it showing for a family, you could incorporate that information as well.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Great idea. Thank you.

MWO Grant Mack: Thank you.

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Sergeant Frank De Maine.

Sergeant Frank De Maine (Individual Presentation): Good afternoon. My name is Sergeant Frank De Maine. I'm in the Queen's Own Rifles. I've been a reservist for 14 years. I've served overseas in several UN missions and so forth. Right now I work at the recruiting centre.

My question to the panel here is why does a person making a six-figure income, say $100,000-plus a year, get to write off a haircut, drycleaning, and upkeep of his clothing when a soldier who makes about $22,000 or $25,000 a year cannot do the same?

Mr. Leon Benoit: I have just one question.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Are you insinuating that we do that?

Voices: Oh, oh!

Sgt Frank De Maine: No, sir.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Listen, I've been here for 10 years; I've been missing out on a lot if that's the case.

Mr. Leon Benoit: My question was going to be just exactly that. Who are you referring to? Who can get that?

Sgt Frank De Maine: A person making $100,000 or $130,000 a year, I know—

Mr. Leon Benoit: Are you talking about generals?

Sgt Frank De Maine: No, I'm not talking about a member of the forces. I'm talking about a civilian who makes $130,000 a year. He can write off his haircuts, drycleaning, shoe allowance, anything he uses for his business.

Being a soldier in the Canadian Forces and making a moderate income, I would think that a corporate, private corporal, master corporal, and so on would be able to do the same, seeing as how a haircut is needed at least twice a month—once a month for some people. Over the course of a few years, that adds up to quite a few dollars.

• 1625

Mr. Leon Benoit: I've never heard of anyone being allowed to write those things off, so I was wondering who was getting in on that.

Sgt Frank De Maine: They must have a better accountant then, eh?

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes. Okay.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I'm just talking to the researchers. I'm thinking, is there a form you can submit to try to get those written off?

Sgt Frank De Maine: Not that I'm aware of, sir.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): I'll tell you why I say that. My riding is in North Bay, and when you were speaking, I was trying to remember, because I think that we worked on a Canadian Forces file of an individual who did try to get that written off, and in some cases did. There's a special form, I think, that you can fill out and submit. I'm pretty sure of that.

Sgt Frank De Maine: Maybe they'd want to trickle that information down to the common soldier.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): When you talked about it, it just jogged my memory, because I remember thinking how odd it was. In some cases I don't know if it's accepted at all. I guess it just depends on who you get in the income tax department, and being at the right time and the right place, but I thought there was something that could be put in on that. I could be wrong, but I can check it out for you, if you want to just hang around. I'll get your address so I can check it out and give you a call. In fact, I think I have your phone number here anyway.

Sgt Frank De Maine: Yes, sir.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes, I'd do it.

Sgt Frank De Maine: I have one other point, sir.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes?

Sgt Frank De Maine: While serving this winter on Operation Recuperation during the ice storms in eastern Ontario, several members of my platoon were actually threatened by their civilian employers. We had about 400-and-some reservists up there helping out, and their employers actually threatened them with their jobs saying, “No, you're not going, or you won't have a job to come back to”. One of them actually lost his job while he was on the operation. He phoned his employer, who told him, “Don't bother to come in to work next week, because you don't have a job any more”.

Is there some sort of legislation that the government can instil, so that it will not backlash in a reservist's face when he sits down for a job interview, and says “Yes, I'm John Doe, and I'm a member of the Canadian Forces reserves”, and they say, “Oh, well, we don't want you, because you might go on operation, and we might lose you for a couple of days or a couple of weeks”?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Offhand, I don't think there is any legislation to that effect. I think it all depends on the goodwill of the employer. I believe we did come across that situation when we were in Trenton. Somebody mentioned that the same situation had happened, where a gentleman had lost his job because of it. I don't think there's any legislation that protects reservists from that.

Sgt Frank De Maine: I think it's high time that it gets taken care of.

Mr. Leon Benoit: On that issue, there has in fact been a fair bit of study done on that. Reservists themselves have generally rejected the idea of putting anything in legislation that will ensure the job will be there when they get back.

As well, the committee whose job it is—and I forget the name again, I'm having a little trouble today—also rejected the idea of using legislation as the way of ensuring that jobs will be there for reservists who leave. What they recommended instead was an education program and also a real PR program with companies, to encourage them to become involved and recognize the importance of the work the reservists are doing. They've been working at that and have been pretty successful with the larger companies.

My concern is that I don't think you'd find that a lot of the smaller companies, in practical terms, can do that. If you have three or four employees and one goes on deployment for several months, it's awfully hard to ensure that there will be a job there when that person gets back.

They felt that the way to go at it really was through promotion, through recognition of the importance of the work being done and the value of these people as employees because of what they learn when they're in the reserves and that type of thing. I think I agree that that's the way to do it.

Not enough has been done. It is something that's being worked on, and I think the effort should be increased on that.

• 1630

Sgt Frank DeMaine: That's just relying on their good human nature.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Good will.

Sgt Frank DeMaine: That's not a law or instilling a policy that will protect them. I'm sure the reservists said they didn't want that, due to the fact that when somebody went for a job interview and stated he was a member of the reserves, that would knock him down the ladder a few rungs.

Mr. Leon Benoit: That's probably one of the reasons they wouldn't be hired. Another is that with small companies it's practically very difficult to put in place.

There's something else that's almost unbelievable. Here we have the Canadian Forces that are a part of the federal responsibility, but in the civil service branch of the federal government there's no legislation to ensure that someone who works in the civil service will get their job back when they return. There's no accommodation for that. That's unbelievable. The federal government should show leadership and within the federal civil service say that if you are a member of the reserves and deploy, your job will be there when you return, and we'll do everything to make sure you're put back into at least an equivalent position to the one you left. It's unbelievable.

With that kind of leadership, why would you expect provincial governments or private companies to really go along with this? Yet to their credit, many have. Some of the larger corporations, in particular, have really worked hard at that and I think are doing a good job. But we need the leadership from the federal government on this issue, and we haven't had it so far.

Sgt Frank DeMaine: Maybe we just need a new government.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Thank you very much for your presentation.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Corporal Céline Lebel, please.

Corporal Céline Lebel (Individual Presentation): Boy, do I find a lot of stuff that relates to me today. There was the nice move to Toronto. I'm a corporal and my husband is sergeant. We're both in the military, but that sure was a hard move.

My son is having trouble here in Toronto. He cannot learn English and is intimidated by a lot of stuff. But with a nice talk I had to ask for compassionate leave to get out of the Toronto area, again putting my career on the side. I guess it was my choice to come to Toronto, but I never asked for it in my career. I asked for 16 years of my career to be posted to Quebec City to be close to my family and stuff, but I never got it. It was never recognized.

I also lost money on my house moving from Ottawa to here. Again, I didn't meet the 10% of the market loss, whatever, so we had to swallow that one.

Last December we were on TV on TFO. The crew of the TV walked into my nice PMQ in Toronto and said “Wow, nice furniture. Did you guys get it for free?” We said we paid for it and we also pay rent and income tax.

My question here today is whether it has ever crossed your minds that maybe instead of a pay raise—of course it would be nice to have a pay raise, it would be nice to have all kinds of incentives or whatever—what about paying us biweekly instead of semi-monthly? That would make a whole difference for the people who go to food banks. I believe the corporals who go to food banks to feed their families go on the third weekend when they have no pay. So that would be nice for them and for a lot of people.

On top of that, when you take out a mortgage for a period of 20 years—being in finance, I look at all those issues—and make payments semi-monthly you pay your mortgage in 20 years. But if your pay is biweekly, you would save three years on your mortgage. That was never looked at. Other people who are in the government are paid every second week, every second Thursday. Why not us? That would be a nice issue, don't you think?

• 1635

Voices: Hear, hear!

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): The biweekly or every two weeks is an issue that has been brought up before, and it's probably something we obviously should consider, because, as you mentioned, it certainly would help out people who have a problem making ends meet toward the end of the month and also on mortgages. I think it's an excellent idea.

Cpl Céline Lebel: Instead of paying people $800 every 15th and 30th, or the last day of the month, they would make something like $750. What difference would it make? At least they would have money to buy their groceries, don't you think?

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Yes.

Just out of curiosity, how much money did you lose on your house sale? Was it a lot—or do you want to talk about it?

Cpl Céline Lebel: $12,000.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): $12,000. Thank you.

Leon.

Mr. Leon Benoit: I have a comment on this issue.

There seems to be a pretty common misunderstanding that the people in the military are provided with all kinds of perks that others aren't provided with. It's an issue that I think has to be expressed to the public. I'll start this by writing letters to the editor to the papers that put the article in that was referred to earlier. It's a start. I hope they'll publish the letter. Maybe you should do that.

Cpl Céline Lebel: In order to be in front of the TV, I had to pass through a lot of things. They screened me and said you don't say this, you don't talk politics, you don't say that and this and the other thing. So I was limited. But the part that really hurt my feelings was when they walked through my PMQ and went, “Nice furniture; you must have got those free.” No, I don't think so.

Mr. Leon Benoit: Yes. My mistake. I never thought before I started to make the comment of why don't you write letters to the editor. I know why.

Thank you.

The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Bob Wood): Thank you very much.

This brings to a close the number of people who want to make a presentation in front of the committee this afternoon.

We thank you very much for attending. I know a lot of you drove a fair distance to be here, and we certainly appreciate it. We appreciate everyone who turned out today and made presentations in front of the committee. It was great to get your input. We'll be back tonight at seven o'clock for the remainder of our hearings. They'll go from seven until ten. Or if we have a lot of presentations tonight we'll go until we're finished, so that everybody who wants to speak will get an opportunity to speak.

On behalf of the committee, we want to thank you very much for being here this afternoon.

We're now adjourned until seven o'clock tonight.