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MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
 
Meeting No. 5
 
Thursday, November 4, 2004
 

The Standing Committee on Public Accounts met in camera at 3:36 p.m. this day, in Room 237-C Centre Block, the Chair, John Williams, presiding.

 

Members of the Committee present: Dean Allison, Gary Carr, David Christopherson, Brian Fitzpatrick, Mark Holland, Daryl Kramp, Hon. Walt Lastewka, Hon. Shawn Murphy, John Williams and Borys Wrzesnewskyj.

 

Acting Members present: Michel Guimond for Benoît Sauvageau, Derek Lee for Hon. Shawn Murphy and Louise Thibault for Sébastien Gagnon.

 

In attendance: Library of Parliament: Brian O'Neal, Analyst; Marc-André Pigeon, Analyst. House of Commons: Rob Walsh, Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel.

 
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of matters related to Committee business.
 

It was agreed, — That a letter of invitation be issued to Mr. Francis Beukman, Chair of the South African Public Accounts Committee to visit Ottawa, Canada in order to meet with the members and staff of the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee during the week of November 21 to 27, 2004.

 

The Chair presented the Second Report from the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure which reads as follows:

Your Subcommittee met on Monday, November 1st, 2004, to consider the business of the Committee and agreed to make the following recommendations:

1. That the Committee pursue as its work the following issues:

a) Regular business of the Committee;

b) Governance;

c) Privilege;

d) Sponsorship matters.

2. That the schedule for November 2004 be as follows:

Tuesday, November 2, 2004

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), Chapter 3, the Sponsorship Program, Chapter 4, Advertising Activities and Chapter 5, Management of Public Opinion Research of the November 2003 Report of the Auditor General of Canada referred to the Committee on February 10, 2004, and privilege, powers and immunities of the House of Commons.

Thursday, November 4, 2004

Consideration of Reports:

a) Second Report of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure;

b) Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), Chapter 3, the Sponsorship Program, Chapter 4, Advertising Activities and Chapter 5, Management of Public Opinion Research of the November 2003 Report of the Auditor General of Canada referred to the Committee on February 10, 2004, and privilege, powers and immunities of the House of Commons (continuation).

Tuesday, November 16, 2004

Briefing by Analyst and Law Clerk regarding the Sponsorship Inquiry.

Thursday, November 18, 2004

Main Estimates - Vote 20 under Finance, Office of the Auditor General.

Tuesday, November 23, 2004

Lock-up for the Auditor General's Report (no Committee meeting) Room 237-C, Centre Block.

Thursday, November 25, 2004

Auditor General's Report 2004.

 

It was agreed, — That the report be amended by adding after the words: “Main Estimates - Vote 20 under Finance, Office of the Auditor General” the following: “Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2005”.

 

It was agreed, — That the report, as amended, be adopted.

 

At 3:42 p.m., the sitting was suspended.

 

At 3:49 p.m., the Committee resumed sitting in public.

 
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the Committee resumed consideration of Chapter 3, the Sponsorship Program, Chapter 4, Advertising Activities and Chapter 5, Management of Public Opinion Research of the November 2003 Report of the Auditor General of Canada referred to the Committee on February 10, 2004, and privilege, powers and immunities of the House of Commons.
 

By unanimous consent and on the following recorded division: YEAS: Dean Allison, Gary Carr, David Christopherson, Brian Fitzpatrick, Michel Guimond, Mark Holland, Daryl Kramp, Walt Lastewka, Louise Thibault, Borys Wrzesnewskyj - 10; NAYS: - 0, it was agreed:

That the Chair present the following resolution to the House at the earliest opportunity:

Given that, in accordance with Standing Order 108(3) (g), your Committee was referred the November 2003 Report of the Auditor General of Canada by the House of Commons on February 10, 2004;

Given that, your Committee considered Chapter 3, the Sponsorship Program, Chapter 4, Advertising Activities and Chapter 5, Management of Public Opinion Research of the same Report;

Given the principle of parliamentary privilege as enshrined in Section 9 of the Bill of Rights of 1689, Section 18 of the Constitution Act 1867, and Section 4 of the Parliament of Canada Act;

Given that witnesses who appeared before the Committee were given assurances that any proceedings would be protected by parliamentary privilege, thereby prohibiting the use of testimony in any proceeding outside of the House of Commons;

And given that the Commissioner of the Commission of Inquiry into the Sponsorship Program and Advertising Activities of the Government of Canada has requested that counsel for the House of Commons seek the views of the House of Commons concerning the application and waiver of privilege afforded to those witnesses who testified before the Public Accounts Committee in connection with Chapters 3, 4, and 5 of the November 2003 Report of the Auditor General of Canada;

That the privileges, powers and immunities of the House of Commons, as provided by section 18 of the Constitution Act, 1867 and section 4 of the Parliament of Canada Act, include freedom of speech and debate as set out, among other places, in Article 9 of the Bill of Rights, 1689, which provides “that the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament, ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament”;

That this privilege prohibits, in a court of law or other proceeding, the tendering or receipt of evidence by way of direct evidence, cross-examination or submissions, of questions asked or statements, submissions or comments made in a parliamentary proceeding;

That the privileges of the House of Commons and its Members extend to Committees of the House and anyone who participates in proceedings before such Committees;

That the House of Commons will not insist on this privilege for the purpose of prosecuting perjury; And whereas the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), inquired into Chapter 3, the Sponsorship Program, Chapter 4, Advertising Activities and Chapter 5, Management of Public Opinion Research of the November 2003 Report of the Auditor General of Canada at hearings commencing February 17, 2004;

That by Order in Council a Commission of Inquiry was established pursuant to the Inquiries Act to investigate and report on questions raised, directly or indirectly, by Chapters 3 and 4 of the November 2003 Report of the Auditor General to the House of Commons with regard to the sponsorship program and advertising activities of the Government of Canada;

That some former and present Members of the House of Commons may appear before the Commission of Inquiry;

That a number of witnesses who appeared before the Public Accounts Committee may also appear before the Commission of Inquiry;

That witnesses before the Public Accounts Committee were given assurances that their testimony and submissions would be protected by the privileges of the House of Commons;

That the Commissioner of the Commission of Inquiry has asked the House to consider whether transcripts of the hearings before the Public Accounts Committee may be received in evidence if a witness makes a sworn statement before the Commission of Inquiry that is inconsistent with a statement previously made by that witness before the Public Accounts Committee;

That by virtue of section 5 of the Parliament of Canada Act, these privileges are part of the general and public law of Canada and need not be pleaded and they are to be taken notice of judicially;

That the House of Commons’ privilege of freedom of speech and debate precludes receipt of such transcripts by any other proceeding, including a commission of inquiry, for such purposes;

That the proceedings and all evidence, submissions and testimony by all persons participating in the proceedings of the Public Accounts Committee continue to be protected by all the privileges and immunities of this House.

And that the question of any further or other consideration of these privileges as they apply to the Commission of Inquiry, or generally, be referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, with the following order of reference:

The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs consider the question of whether or not and in what circumstances it may be possible for the House of Commons to waive its privileges under Article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1689, including review of:

a) the circumstances which led to this reference;

b) the views of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts;

c) the position in Canada;

d) the position in the Commonwealth; and

e) such other considerations as it deems appropriate

 

At 5:30 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

 



Elizabeth B. Kingston
Clerk of the Committee

 
 
2005/03/04 8:35 a.m.