OGGO Committee Meeting
Notices of Meeting include information about the subject matter to be examined by the committee and date, time and place of the meeting, as well as a list of any witnesses scheduled to appear. The Evidence is the edited and revised transcript of what is said before a committee. The Minutes of Proceedings are the official record of the business conducted by the committee at a sitting.
For an advanced search, use Publication Search tool.
If you have any questions or comments regarding the accessibility of this publication, please contact us at accessible@parl.gc.ca.
CANADA
Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates
|
l |
|
l |
|
EVIDENCE
Wednesday, May 28, 2003
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
[English]
The Chair (Mr. Reg Alcock (Winnipeg South, Lib.)):
Welcome to the 46th meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. We are here for one purpose and one purpose only. We have a series of votes that were referred to this committee under the estimates. We have heard testimony on some aspects of that, both in the main committee and in the subcommittee. I have a series of votes to put to the committee. Each one of these are debatable motions, but hearing no debate we will pass them. Right?
Mr. Epp, given that you are the sole opposition member here, shall I make it a convention that when these votes pass we pass them on division?
The Chair:
Done. I am going to call them.
| CANADIAN HERITAGE |
| Public Service Commission |
| ç | Vote 110--Public Service Commission--Program expenditures..............$113,930,000, less the amount of $28,482,500 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 110 agreed to on division)
| GOVERNOR GENERAL |
| Department |
| ç | Vote 1--Governor General--Program expenditures.............$16,853,000, less the amount of $4,213,250 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
| JUSTICE |
| Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada |
| ç | Vote 40--Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada Program--Program expenditures....................$4,398,000, less the amount of $1,099,500 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 40 agreed to on division)
| ç | Vote 45--Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada Program--Program expenditures..................$9,817,000 |
The Chair: Mr. Bryden.
Mr. John Bryden (Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, Lib.):
Mr. Chairman, I won't be able to support that particular vote. I would like, if I may, to make a comment on why I choose not to.
The Chair:
It's a debatable motion, Mr. Bryden. I'll tell you what I'm going to do, Mr. Bryden. If you will permit me, I will call the rest of the votes, and after having done them, we will deal with that one.
The Chair:
Okay. (Vote 45 allowed to stand)
| PARLIAMENT |
| The Senate |
| ç | Vote 1--The Senate--Program expenditures.................$41,705,950, less the amount of $10,426,487 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
| PRIVY COUNCIL |
| Department |
| ç | Vote 1--Privy Council--Program expenditures.....................$102,156,000, less the amount of $25,539,000 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
| Canadian Centre for Management Development |
| ç | Vote 5--Canadian Centre for Management Development--Program expenditures...........$25,894,000, less the amount of $6,473,500 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 5 agreed to on division)
| Canadian Intergovernmental Conference Secretariat |
| ç | Vote 10--Canadian Intergovernmental Conference Secretariat--Program expenditures..................$3,576,000, less the amount of $894,000 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 10 agreed to on division)
| Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board |
| ç | Vote 15--Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board--Program expenditures.......................$22,304,000, less the amount of $5,576,000 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 15 agreed to on division)
| Public Service Staff Relations Board |
| ç | Vote 35--Public Service Staff Relations Board--Program expenditures................$5,840,000, less the amount of $1,460,000 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 35 agreed to on division)
| PUBLIC WORKS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES |
| Department |
| ç | Vote 1--Government Services Program--Operating Expenditures................$1,840,511,000, less the amount of $613,503,666.67 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
The Chair: It's $1.8 billion, Tony. That's a lot of change here that you just blew off like that.
The Chair:
No, that's okay.| ç | Vote 5--Government Services Program--Capital Expenditures...............$368,684,000, less the amount of $92,171,000 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 5 agreed to on division)
| ç | Vote 10--Government Services Program--Grants and contributions...............$6,111,002, less the amount of $1,527,750.50 voted in Interim Supply. |
(Vote 10 agreed to on division)
| Communication Canada |
| ç | Vote 15--Communication Canada--Operating Expenditures................$62,726,000, less the amount of $15,681,500 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 15 agreed to on division)
| ç | Vote 20--Communications Canada--Grants and contributions..............$31,250,000, less the amount of $7,812,500 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 20 agreed to on division)
| TREASURY BOARD |
| Secretariat |
| Vote 1--Secretariat--Operating expenditures..........$151,617,000, less the amount of $37,904,250 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 1 agreed to on division)
| ç | Vote 2--Secretariat--Contributions...............$18,600,000, less the amount of $6,200,000 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 2 agreed to on division)
| ç | Vote 5--Secretariat--Government Contingencies..............$750,000,000, less the amount of $687,500,000 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 5 agreed to on division)
| ç | Vote 10--Secretariat--Government-Wide Initiatives................$20,783,000, less the amount of $5,195,750 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 10 agreed to on division)
| Vote 20--Secretariat--Public Service Insurance...............$1,450,900,000, less the amount of $362,725,000 voted in Interim Supply |
(Vote 20 agreed to on division)
The Chair: Now, Mr. Bryden, you had a comment to make. That is all of them, with the exception of number 4, vote 45. Mr. Bryden, if you could make that succinct comment.
Mr. John Bryden:
Well, I don't know whether it will be succinct, but I have a number of concerns about this particular vote. One of them is that the privacy commissioner is asking for almost double the amount of money that the information commissioner has. They have parallel roles as officers of Parliament. I raised these concerns several times when there was a debate, particularly yesterday. I was disappointed that the privacy commissioner was not able or chose not to come when he was invited to the committee to defend his estimates yesterday.
The fact that the privacy commissioner failed to come, the fact that I have serious questions about the amount of money he is spending, and also the fact that I did ask questions in committee yesterday of the representative from the privacy commissioner's office who came in lieu of the privacy commissioner are all concerns.
The questions are in a letter that I presume you are going to table today, Mr. Chairman. You must have tabled it, because I have it.
I wish to inform my colleagues that the answers supplied are inadequate in the context of the questions I asked. If you would permit me, I could explain in detail why they are inadequate, point by point; or if you prefer, we can do that at another time.
The Chair:
May I make the following suggestion? The issue that Mr. Bryden has been raising.... For the benefit of those members who are not regular on this committee, he has been before the committee several times on this. There are some other issues outstanding on this particular file. I suggest, Mr. Bryden, that we hold a vote on this. We can hold a recorded vote, if you like, so we can register your particular position on it.
The Chair:
I would undertake to call a steering committee of the committee to discuss how we proceed on some of your concerns, because some of them involve issues under estimates and some of them involve other issues of the operation of the office. That, I suggest, would be more appropriately dealt with in a forum like that. With your permission, what I would suggest we do is take the vote on this, dispose of the estimates now.
One of the reasons for not continuing is simply that if we don't deal with these today, they are deemed done anyway. That is the dilemma we have with the process right now. But we will come back to the table specifically on the issue of some of the concerns of the privacy commissioner's office at our earliest convenience.
Mr. John Bryden:
That is fine with me, Mr. Chairman, with just one further comment, and that is, when I get the Hansard of yesterday's hearings, I would like to suggest to you the form of a letter you might send to the privacy commissioner that would answer at least some of the requests I made, because the document I have before me does not address my original question. But I need that Hansard before I can do the letter. Otherwise, Mr. Chairman, please call the vote.Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.):
Mr. Chair, you had suggested that it is within the capability of the committee to lower an estimate. I think in terms of the lack of attendance and the problems Mr. Bryden has, I would suggest that we lower this estimate by some token amount—I don't even care if it's $1,000—to let them know, as a marker, that we are not happy with it, so it comes down $1,000. This is what committees are supposed to be able to do.The Chair:
I think for that to take place, someone.... This is a motion. Let me be specific. The motion is that “Vote 45 under Justice (Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada Program) in the amount of $9,817,000 less the amount of $2,454,250 voted in Interim Supply, be...”. It is an amendable motion, so a person can move an amendment to that motion should they so desire.Mr. John Bryden:
Then I take my colleague's point. I think she is very right. I can't believe I didn't think of it, but I would like to move an amendment. I think her point is well taken. I would like to move an amendment that the estimate be lowered by a token amount to express our displeasure in the amount of--Mr. John Bryden:
I think $1,000 is a token. I think we have to do the token, although $1,000 isn't very much. Let's lower it by $100,000. That's a real token.The Chair:
Could I make a point? I suppose it's not appropriate for the chairman to comment on these things, but this chairman is not particularly appropriate at most times. The power to decrease a vote is an important power, and it's a power that I believe the committee should exercise. I don't believe it should be exercised capriciously.
In fairness to Mr. Bryden's position, I think you have spent a lot of time identifying some significant concerns that have not been responded to appropriately. So I agree that some expression of the displeasure of the committee, should the committee choose to do that, would be appropriate. But to pick numbers out of the air, to do anything other than a token amount to demonstrate that the committee is displeased, or to play beyond that without a substantive underpinning of research--
Mr. John Bryden:
Mr. Chair, your words and my colleague Carolyn Bennett's words I think are very appropriate logic. I would like to move a motion, however the clerk would like to phrase it, that lowers the privacy commissioner's estimates by $1,000.
The Chair:
How should the motion be worded? Would it be worded by replacing the amount, or would it be worded by omitting to say less the amount of--Ms. Carolyn Bennett:
No, just like here: “Interim Supply, be: adopted, reduced by $1,000...or negatived.” Mrs. Karen Redman (Kitchener Centre, Lib.):
You don't have to do the math. You just have to subtract the part in brackets.The Chair:
We have an amendment moved by Mr. Bryden, seconded by Dr. Bennett. | JUSTICE |
| Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada |
| ç | Vote 45--Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada Program--Program expenditures..............$9,817,000, less the amount of $2,454,250 voted in Interim Supply. |
(Amendment agreed to)
(Vote 45 as amended agreed to on division)
The Chair: The final question: Shall I report these votes, as amended?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed and so ordered. Thank you very much.
For the information of members of the committee, we will meet on Tuesday. We have agreed to call the information commissioner to talk about his report. That will be Tuesday. We will have a steering committee meeting early in the week, which I shall call. Thank you.
The meeting is adjourned.