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37th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Special Committee on Non-Medical Use of Drugs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Monday, April 15, 2002

0840

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.))

0845

0850

0855

0900

The Chair

Mr. Sorenson

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon (Co-ordinator, Youth and Family Programs, Department of Health and Social Services (Prince Edward Island))

0905

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark (Director, Talbot House)

0910

The Chair

0915

Staff Sergeant Rick Gibbons (Joint Drug Enforcement, Royal Canadian Mounted Police)

0920

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

Corporal Ken Murray (Coordinator, Drug Awareness Service, Prince Edward Island, L Division and, Co-Chair, Hep C Committee, Royal Canadian Mounted Police)

0925

0930

The Chair

Mr. White (Langley--Abbotsford)

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Randy White

Cpl Ken Murray

Mr. Randy White

Cpl Ken Murray

0935

The Chair

0940

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Randy White

Mr. Wayne Clark

Mr. Randy White

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

Mr. Randy White

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

0945

Mr. Randy White

The Chair

Mr. Randy White

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

Cpl Ken Murray

The Chair

Ms. Davies

Cpl Ken Murray

The Chair

Ms. Davies

0950

Ms. Maureen McIver

Ms. Davies

Cpl Ken Murray

0955

Ms. Davies

Cpl Ken Murray

The Chair

Cpl Ken Murray

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Ms. Davies

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Ms. Davies

1000

The Chair

Ms. Davies

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.)

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Wayne Clark

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Maureen McIver

1005

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Maureen McIver

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Maureen McIver

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Cpl Ken Murray

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

1010

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Wayne Clark

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Sorenson

1015

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Sorenson

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

Mr. Sorenson

Cpl Ken Murray

Mr. Sorenson

Cpl Ken Murray

1020

Mr. Sorenson

The Chair

Mr. Sorenson

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

1025

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Cpl Ken Murray

The Chair

Cpl Ken Murray

1030

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

1035

The Chair

Cpl Ken Murray

The Chair

Mr. Randy White

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Randy White

1040

The Chair

1045

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Mr. Randy White

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

1050

Mr. Randy White

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

Cpl Ken Murray

1055

Mr. Randy White

The Chair

Ms. Davies

The Chair

Ms. Davies

1100

Ms. Maureen McIver

Ms. Davies

Ms. Maureen McIver

Ms. Davies

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Ms. Davies

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

1105

Ms. Davies

Mr. Wayne Clark

Ms. Davies

Mr. Wayne Clark

Ms. Davies

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

The Chair

1110

Mr. Wayne Clark

The Chair

1115

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

1120

The Chair

Cpl Ken Murray

The Chair

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Mr. Sorenson

1125

The Chair

Mr. Sorenson

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

1130

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Ms. Maureen McIver

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

Ms. Maureen McIver

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

1135

Mr. Kevin McKinnon

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons

The Chair

Cpl Ken Murray

The Chair

Cpl Ken Murray

1140

The Chair

CANADA

Special Committee on Non-Medical Use of Drugs

NUMBER 034

1st SESSION

37th PARLIAMENT

EVIDENCE

Monday, April 15, 2002

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¾ (0840)

[English]

The Chair (Ms. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)): Good morning. I call this meeting to order.

Thank you very much for agreeing to speak to us this morning.

We're very pleased, as the Special Committee on the Non-Medical Use of Drugs, to be in Charlottetown. You'll have to forgive most of us because we're on a different time zone. And if you think it's bad for those of us from Montreal and the Toronto area, Libby is on 4:30 in the morning because she's from Vancouver. Randy and Kevin are at about 5:30 in the morning. We are very pleased to be here and to have Maureen McIver with us from the Department of Health and Social Services of Prince Edward Island. She is the provincial addications consultant with child, family and community services. Kevin McKinnon is the coordinator of youth and family programs. Welcome. From Talbot House is Wayne Clark, who is the director of that organization. And from the RCMP we have Staff Sergeant Rick Gibbons, from the joint drug enforcement branch, and Corporal Ken Murray, co-chair of the hepatitis C committee.

Why don't I ask you to present in the order I've just introduced you. If you're not doing joint presentations, then whoever was first can start.

Ms McIver.

Ms. Maureen McIver (Provincial Addictions Consultant, Department of Health and Social Services (Prince Edward Island)): Chairperson Torsney, vice-chair, honourable members, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. Perhaps if there's such a time difference, you won't be so hard on us if you're a little bit sluggish.

First, I'd like to talk about the philsophy of education, prevention and treatment of addictions on P.E.I. Second, I will talk about the specific programs we have to offer for prevention and treatment on Prince Edward Island. Third, I'd like to offer a few comments on the concept of harm reduction. Finally, I'd like to speak about a few essentials the federal government needs to address regarding education, prevention, treatment of drug abuse, drug misuse and drug addiction. When I speak of drugs, I'm including alcohol, nicotine and illicit drugs.

Addiction services on Prince Edward Island believe those who are diagnosed as chemically dependent or have a pathological gambling problem have a disease that is chronic, progressive and potentially fatal. We subscribe to a bio-psychosocial model in the diagnosis and treatment of the disease of chemical dependency and pathological gambling. Use of a bio-psychosocial model allows one to consider the impact that biological, genetic, psychological and socio-cultural factors have on the manifestation and progression of this disease. It also allows us to consider the psychosocial manifestations such as relationship problems, employment problems, legal problems, mental health problems, and physical health problems that are often evident before the addicted person starts to experience serious medical problems.

The bio-psychosocial model provides one with a broad framework for the understanding of addictions while being inclusive of the medical model, cognitive behavioural model, and 12-step community programs.

This disease of addiction causes many health, social, and economic problems. It leaves a lot of wreckage along the way in terms of physical and mental health, family violence, broken homes, lost jobs, accidents, illegal activities, fetal alcohol syndrome and fetal alcohol effect, and finally, economic and health care expenses.

P.E.I. has a long-term goal of abstinence in the treatment of this disease. We believe this is the ultimate goal of harm reduction.

We also recognize that this is a relapsing disease, and we support addicted individuals and families along the way to attain and maintain abstinence.

We also believe there can be drug abuse and drug misuse without addiction, which requires a different approach; for example, education and awareness.

Regarding the programs on Prince Edward Island, in 1999 a review of the P.E.I. addiction services was conducted. As a result, Prince Edward Island now has a provincial addiction services program that offers a broad range of education, treatment, and support services to the residents of Prince Edward Island for the purpose of preventing, reducing, and eliminating the potential and harmful effects of alcohol, other drugs, and gambling.

Major initiatives of the new provincial program include a provincial addictions facility that was built to house the in-patient detox and rehab programs for P.E.I. As a result, we now have centralized in-patient services, but we have expanded and enhanced out-patient services to the four health regions. Wayne and Kevin will talk more about the programs when they are speaking.

The increase in expanded out-patient programs to the region enables us to provide early identification, intervention, and treatment close to home.

All health regions on P.E.I. now provide women's treatment on demand; a gambling treatment program on demand; assessment, counselling, and referral services; youth programs, including student assistance programs in the school; and out-patient detox and follow-up. In our out-patient detox we now have smoking cessation programs and out-patient rehab and aftercare family support programs. In addition, acupuncture treatment programs will be available on P.E.I. in May of this year.

The provincial in-patient addictions facility includes 25 detox beds, 15 rehab beds, and two youth stabilization beds. As well, the mobile gambling treatment program and the mobile women-specific treatment program are housed there. They are provincial programs that are mobile to the regions as the demand is there.

Other provincial addictions programs include the extended care for men, which Wayne will talk about, and the extended care for women.

Good communication linkages exist between provincial in-patient services and the regional out-patient services to ensure coordinated client and family care.

¾ (0845)

Harm reduction is a concept that means different things to different people, and leaves a lot of confusion. Quite frankly, I just wish it weren't used. For some, it means reduced drug use with, hopefully, reduced problems. For others, it means preventing drug abuse through education or preventing drug abuse-related problems; for example, with needle exchange programs, promoting safe sex, designated driver programs, and impaired driving laws.

We believe harm reduction has its place in all our programs for both substance abuse and addiction treatment. For example, when a chronic relapsing addict is readmitted to detox rehab and/or relapse prevention programs, we are reducing the harm to the individual, the family, and the community.

We have liaison services between addiction services and acute care, addiction services and mental health, social services and justice, for assessment, early intervention, and referral.

We have a provision of drug education to students in school, college students. We have a mass Drug Awareness Week campaign each year. We can and do support a harm reduction model in addiction programs when it includes a goal of abstinence.

We do have a problem with counselling an individual with a clear diagnosis of addiction to cut down on chemical use. Addicts have tried over and over to control the use and have failed. We believe we do people a disservice when we counsel them to cut down and give them hope that it can be done. I'm talking about the chemically dependent person. When they fail yet again, we then have clients with reinforced feelings of weakness and hopelessness.

We believe we need to educate clients who are diagnosed as having an addiction that they have a chronic, progressive, potentially fatal disease. Addiction services is there to help them acknowledge there is a problem and to assist them to stop using. This is a relapsing disease and may mean numerous detox sessions and treatment.

Some would counsel those with an obvious addiction to cut down on their drug use and call this harm reduction. But is it really? Consider the addicted person who has tried over and over again to cut down, with a family falling apart that has pleaded and lectured the person to stop using. The client enters treatment and is counselled to reduce the use. We believe this is a disservice to the individual, the family, and the community.

For clients who are injection drug users and who are unable or unwilling to stop using, needle exchange programs may need to be considered to reduce the harm to the individual and community through HIV/AIDS and hepatitis infections.

The Journal of the American Medical Association, the U.S. government's internal review on needle exchange programs, has reported that needle exchange programs are cost-effective and can prevent the transmission of HIV. They have been shown to result in fewer discarded syringes. There is no available data to suggest an increase in drug use because of needle exchange programs, to date anyway. Needle exchange programs have been shown do decrease the incidences of hepatitis B and C. Needle exchange programs may be an entry point for intravenous drug users to enter addictions treatment.

Extensive public education around needle exchange programs would be needed before implementation of such a program in P.E.I. to ensure the public are informed of the rationale, potential benefits and risks to the community and individuals.

¾ (0850)

It would be very important that needle exchange programs have close links to addiction services for assessment, counselling, treatment, and support to clients when required. P.E.I. has now established a committee to build an intersectoral alliance on harm reduction, and addictions is part of the committee.

Methadone: There is a small number of injection drug users on P.E.I. The main drugs are Dilaudid and cocaine. P.E.I. is currently not in a position to establish or consider methadone maintenance for opiate-addicted clients.

Any consideration for the implementation of a methadone maintenance program on P.E.I. would have to address the following issues: the need for trained physicians in addictions and methadone maintenance treatment; the need for public education, awareness, and acceptance; the need for required dosages to be dictated by the individual's clinical needs; the need for the duration of methadone maintenance to be determined by the individual's clinical needs in partnership with a treatment team; the need for clients in a methadone maintenance program to be supervised and supported by addiction staff; and the need to measure the cost-benefits of the implementation of a program.

The Department of Health and Social Services has undertaken a comprehensive literature review to look at options for treating clients with opiate addictions. This work will not be accomplished quickly. However, we are aware of other possibilities.

Auricular, or ear, acupuncture: There is good evidence to suggest that auricular acupuncture is effective in reducing withdrawal, cravings, mood swings, anxiety, and depression in those with opiate and cocaine addictions. In fact, auricular acupuncture has been shown to have value as an adjunct in the treatment of any addiction. Auricular acupuncture has also demonstrated its effectiveness in the retention and engagement of clients in treatment. Next month staff at provincial and regional sites will be trained to provide auricular acupuncture. It will then be used as an adjunct to existing programs and will be available to any client in addiction services upon request. It is hoped that auricular acupuncture will be as effective as was demonstrated in programs in Nova Scotia as well as across the U.S.

Issues that we feel need to be addressed at the federal level are the following. The conspiracy of silence with regard to addictions needs to be stopped. This is the only way to address the stigma attached to addiction. Mass media public education is needed regarding the effects of drug abuse and misuse on the population's health. Educational institutions need to extensively train physicians, nurses, social workers, psychologists, and other professionals on addiction issues.

Federal statistics need to accurately portray the impact of drugs on people using acute care systems. Unfortunately, we don't have a good database federally, and I believe there hasn't been a survey since 1996. But we do know that many acute care beds are occupied by people who have a primary addiction problem but who are not being screened and assessed as having that.

Canadian research is needed with regard to addiction. There needs to be a division within Health Canada devoted to addictions research, prevention, education, and policy.

¾ (0855)

The profile of addictions and related problems needs to be raised. Education is needed to address ways people can live a healthy live without drugs. We feel the federal government needs to provide more funding to assist the province in the delivery of addiction programs.

Finally, recognizing the impact of addictions on the healthy development of our children and the high correlation between substance abuse and family violence, we ask you to review the relevant recommendations in For Our Children: A Strategy for Healthy Child Development, our five-year provincial strategy for healthy child development. It's sitting on the table outside. Of particular concern is the lack of federal resources available to the RCMP for drug prevention and education, operations, and enforcement initiatives. I have provided you with a full copy in English and French. The strategy is available in both languages.

The issue of addictions is one that touches all our lives at one time or another. As Helen Keller said, the marvelous richness of human experience would lose something of rewarding joy if there were no limitations to overcome.

I want to thank you again for the opportunity to participate in this panel. We wish you an efficient and effective process for the benefit of Canadians. Thank you.

¿ (0900)

The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. McIver.

To my colleagues, we will distribute the copies of the English and French versions of it when we've had a chance to photocopy it.

Before I turn to the next panellist, perhaps it's the early hour, but I forgot to do something, and that is to introduce my colleagues around the table. As I mentioned, I am Paddy Torsney. I'm from the riding of Burlington, Ontario, which is just near Toronto. Randy White is a Canadian Alliance member from Langley--Abbotsford in British Columbia, near Vancouver. Kevin Sorenson is....

I haven't had to introduce you at any of the panels. What's your riding again?

Mr. Kevin Sorenson (Crowfoot, Canadian Alliance): It's Crowfoot in central Alberta.

The Chair: Oh, yes. I should know that.

Libby Davies is from Vancouver East and is a New Democratic Party member; Carole-Marie Allard is from Laval East, which is just north of Montreal; Chantal Collin is our researcher; Carol Chafe, whom all of you have met, is our clerk. We have a great team behind us who provide interpretation in English and in French and make sure all the microphones are on when we need them to be on. They're also recording us and transmitting it to Ottawa, so it is part of the official record of this committee's work.

Now I will turn to Mr. McKinnon.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon (Co-ordinator, Youth and Family Programs, Department of Health and Social Services (Prince Edward Island)): Good morning, everyone. I'm Kevin McKinnon and I'm a youth and family counsellor at addiction services here in Queens region.

First of all, thank you for allowing me to be part of the panel. Welcome to everyone here.

This morning I'm going to speak a little bit on youth and family services. I'll be talking about this on a provincial level because what I talk about is available island-wide. Specifically I'll be talking more about what we do here in the Queens region.

I'd like to talk a little bit about our youth programs first. Our youth programs are very much based on a harm reduction model. Our ultimate goal, though, is abstinence, as we move with the youth toward that. As any of us who have worked with youth know, it's a little more difficult to get youth to reach that ultimate goal of abstinence, but it's very much based on prevention, education, and treatment. We do a lot of work in the high schools with their student assistance programs, ranging from the elementary level to the junior high level, right up to the senior high level.

We're involved in all three areas of schools, doing programs with youth who have started to use. It's a lower-level intervention, since most of the youth we run into are either just starting out experimenting with drug use or have moved on to a little bit of so-called irregular to regular use of drugs. Most of the youth we see in the schools we wouldn't classify as being addicted. We may or may not see those youths based in more intensive treatment programs that we may have at the provincial facility. I'll talk about those in a minute.

But at the school level, basically what we have is, as I said, the student assistance program. A lot of work we do in the younger school levels, the elementary levels, is based on children of addicts or children of alcoholics. They are programs that deal with educating youth around how addiction not only affects the person themselves but affects those around them as well--mainly family members--and teach kids a little bit about how to cope with living with addiction.

As far as what we have available island-wide is concerned, we have a youth prevention education treatment program that I believe is island-wide. It lasts for four weeks for a period of two hours once a week. It's on an out-patient level. We don't have any in-patient youth services on the island. If we do need somebody to be an in-patient, we send them off island for that.

I guess Maureen had mentioned that we do have two in-patient beds available at the detox that are for short-level stays for youth. So we do have two beds available there.

We're also very involved with the education of parents in how to deal with finding out that their youth is starting to use or, if their youth is addicted, what things they need to do and what things they need to be concerned about as far as trying to deal with that on a family level is concerned. We certainly see addiction being a family illness in that it certainly does affect the whole family. We're quite involved in getting parents and whole families involved with the education. Maybe that's where I can go in talking about the family side of things now.

With addiction services, we have an eight-week education program that is run once a week for two hours in the evening. Basically, it teaches families what this whole area of chemical dependency is all about, what this whole disease of addiction is about, in order to give them a better understanding of what it is. One of the things Maureen talked about is trying to get word out there--an acceptance level for addiction--and this is one way we do it for family members as well.

We also try to teach families what they can do in order to cope with it and to try to put the focus back on themselves. Over the past couple of years, I think there has been more of a movement to better educate family members on how addiction affects them. I think that was lacking in years past. I think we thought that if the addictive person got well, then everything would be okay. We all know that's just not the case.

We also have a family after-care program. We offer one-on-one counselling both with youth and with family, and also promote a strong involvement with the self-help community, with family and with youth.

I think that's about it as far as the programs that we offer are concerned. Obviously we can take more questions as time goes on.

¿ (0905)

The Chair: Can I just clarify something? You teach families about addiction and what it is in the eight-week session. Is that mom and dad and brother and sister and child?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: It could be. Basically it's for adults, but what we do have is a children's program for children aged 6 to 12 as well, which runs at the same time as the family education program. If there are teens involved, then yes, they can be part of the adult program. But we also have Alateen, which runs from the same building. They have the choice of going to that as well.

The Chair: I'm sure my colleagues will have some more questions for you.

Thank you very much, Mr. McKinnon.

Mr. Clark.

Mr. Wayne Clark (Director, Talbot House): My name is Wayne Clark, and I'm going to speak this morning mainly on the rehabilitation program we deliver in Queens region. I was part of the team for seven years. In order to explain our treatment program, we must first define the terms we are using here today: substance abuse and harm reduction. Our treatment philosophy, as Maureen has mentioned, makes such distinctions; therefore our goals could be quite different. If this committee uses substance abuse interchangeably with chemical dependency, we feel there would be a misunderstanding, because our definition of substance abuse does not include chemical dependency or addiction, and therefore the treatment would be quite different. Our philosophy would state that the former may or may not require abstinence, but that the latter definitely would if the client is to achieve the goal of a healthier lifestyle.

The second term--harm reduction--as we understand it, may have as one of its goals controlled drinking, for example. One can see this is not a goal for substance dependency, using our model. We may begin with trying to reduce our clients' intake, but if they are diagnosed as being addicted or chemically dependent, then abstinence is the ultimate goal. We feel we have a program that allows the clients to achieve this end.

One of the benefits of using the disease abstinence model is that we teach our clients they are in treatment because they are sick and trying to get well, rather than bad and trying to become good. This fact takes away much of the guilt and shame that's associated with this disease.

One of our main areas of treatment is a three-week rehab program, which we deliver on both an in-patient basis and an out-patient basis. It consists of educational and group therapy. The rehab program explains the disease of chemical dependency and how it affects a person physically, mentally, and spiritually. The clients learn about the symptoms of the disease as they are shown how it progresses through the early, middle, and late stages.

Rehab is a therapeutic program that provides our clients with a set of tools to enable them to gain and maintain a life of abstinence. It affords them the opportunity for self-examination, which allows them to come to a better understanding of their disease. It is a holistic approach that is not just focused on stopping drinking or using, but also on the bio-psychosocial aspects. This affords the client an opportunity to improve relationships in all areas, including personal, family, work, and social. The understanding is, if they are enjoying good health and functioning, they are no longer a burden on the medical, legal, social, and employment agencies of this province.

Another aspect of our program is to encourage our clients to obtain a community-based support system, such as 12-step recovery groups, to further assist them in maintaining a healthier lifestyle. Upon completion of the rehab, most of our clients are referred to our six-month aftercare program, where they meet as a group once a week for additional support. If, however, the client, counsellor, or a combination of both decide through the rehab process that he or she needs further treatment, then we have extended care facilities in place that provide a safe, structured therapeutic environment to enable them to gain additional life skills and a more gradual return to their community. That is what Talbot House is, where I'm currently the manager.

I realize this is a relatively broad overview of our program, because time did not allow for a more detailed version. As a matter of fact, I found out about this Friday afternoon at 3 o'clock. However, we feel that no matter whether a chemically dependent client lives in Victoria, British Columbia, or St. John's, Newfoundland, he or she should have the opportunity to take advantage of a disease abstinence-based treatment program.

Thank you.

¿ (0910)

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Clark. I hope we didn't ruin your weekend.

Mr. Wayne Clark: As a matter of fact, you didn't.

The Chair: Now I will go to Staff Sergeant Rick Gibbons.

¿ (0915)

Staff Sergeant Rick Gibbons (Joint Drug Enforcement, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Good morning. My name is Rick Gibbons. I'm in charge of the RCMP drug enforcement program for Prince Edward Island.

I thought what I would do this morning is present a brief sketch of what we perceive to be the drug problem here in Prince Edward Island, starting off with an historical look, moving on to the present status and how the problems escalated, and then take a brief look at our enforcement efforts.

Traditionally, the drugs of choice in Prince Edward Island have been the cannabis products, the main sources for the island being the larger centres in eastern Canada: Montreal, Toronto, and Halifax.

For actual importation to Prince Edward Island, there have been very few substantiated cases over the years. Approximately 12 years ago there was one large seizure involving approximately seven tonnes of marijuana and the seizure of a sloop from Europe. There could be a lot of reasons for this. We are an island, and a relatively small province, but with actually a long coastline. However, compared to Nova Scotia and Newfoundland, for instance, it is very open. We feel that may have something to do with why it hasn't been popular as an importation spot, not to mention that it's an island and the drugs have to come off it to be sent to the rest of Canada.

We saw in the late 1980s and moving into the 1990s a growing interest in outdoor marijuana crops here. Most of them were relatively crude and for personal consumption. The quality was quite low. Liquid hash was popular. Even though use of it was dropping in the rest of Canada, for some reason its usage still remains high in Prince Edward Island. Psilocybin, or magic mushrooms, grow here in abundance. They still do. It seemed to be more popular in other areas of Canada, rather than being for local consumption. People would travel from other provinces to come here to pick them, and we've apprehended people from as far away as Quebec who've come down here to pick them.

LSD has always been present, but for some reason it's not that significant or popular. Methamphetamines and heroin were virtually non-existent 10 years ago. The illegal use of prescription drugs was an enforcement issue, but it was limited mainly to a few cases of double doctoring and a handful of persons who trafficked in it.

Since the opening of the Confederation Bridge in 1997, the city of Moncton has become the prime source of drugs for Prince Edward Island. Needless to say, we work quite closely with our counterparts in J Division.

Locally grown marijuana has become a major problem for us. In particular, the indoor growth has become quite sophisticated, very lucrative, and there has been a large percentage of these types of things seized and dismantled in the last few years.

There is an increasing trend to import marijuana, particularly from British Columbia, either directly from the traffickers there or people travelling on a regular basis to B.C. It's nationally known as good-quality marijuana. Obviously the demand is there and the profit, for people to travel that distance from Prince Edward Island.

Hash oil still remains in demand, and seems to be readily available at any time.

Cocaine, in the last few years, has taken on the distinction of certainly being one of the drugs of choice here. There has been a sharp rise in its consumption and trafficking, resulting in many of the spin-off crimes we experience here. It cuts across all socio-economic lines, and we deal now with sophisticated trafficking organizations and money laundering schemes.

The illegal use and trafficking of prescription drugs has become another increasing problem in the province, particularly with Ritalin, steroids and Dilaudid. It presents a challenging situation for our enforcement.

As in most areas of North America, there's been a steady rise in the use of MDMA, or Ecstasy, as it's most commonly known. Its use appears to be centred around local raves in the larger municipalities, which are primarily attended by younger people.

There does not seem to be a demand for magic mushrooms. Quite honestly, I can't remember the last time we made any form of a psilocybin seizure.

There are still very few cases of LSD. Heroin, if present at all, is not in any form of commercial use or sales.

The L Division drug enforcement is primarily tasked with the investigation of organized crime groups and their trafficking activities. Investigations conducted here are national in scope and often require working relationships with other divisions and other police departments. The longstanding joint forces operations with the municipalities of Charlottetown and Summerside necessitate a certain amount of street-level enforcement to meet the obligations of our enforcement partners.

As I initially commented, this is very brief. It's just a thumbnail sketch of what we're experiencing here and the more common drugs of abuse.

Thank you.

¿ (0920)

The Chair: Thank you.

Just before I turn to Officer Murray, you mentioned that 12 years ago there was one large seizure of seven tonnes of...

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: Oh, I'm sorry. It was marijuana.

The Chair: Thank you.

Corporal Murray.

Corporal Ken Murray (Coordinator, Drug Awareness Service, Prince Edward Island, L Division and, Co-Chair, Hep C Committee, Royal Canadian Mounted Police): Good morning, Madam Chairperson and other members of the special committee.

My name is Ken Murray. I'm here in a dual role this morning as a member of the harm reduction alliance steering committee that has recently begun, and also as the RCMP drug awareness coordinator for the province of Prince Edward Island. I'm a member of the RCMP drug section, and our mandate is enforcement and prevention.

I am the provincial coordinator for the prevention programs for the RCMP in drug awareness. I've been in this role since October 2000. My role is to provide frontline officers with changes in trends of new drugs, drug use, and to coordinate various prevention programs in communities within Prince Edward Island in partnership with schools, addiction workers, community groups, and parents. As we know, it is not one organization's problem; it is a community problem.

One of the programs utilized in this province in a drug prevention role is DARE, drug abuse resistance education, which was started a little over a year ago. We've introduced it into six schools in Prince Edward Island. The core curriculum is with the grade five and six classes, the younger ages.

I believe this addresses a recommendation that was made in the most recent P.E.I. student drug survey, which was done in 1998. It identified alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis as the three main drugs of abuse within Prince Edward Island. I believe there is a new student drug survey being conducted at the present time, but the most recent one that I rely on for statistics is from 1998.

One of the recommendations, and one of the three made by the students of Prince Edward Island, is to start early. Please don't come into our classes in grades 11 and 12 and give a 45-minute lecture on drugs and expect to change our attitude. DARE, I believe, addresses those issues starting early in grades five and six.

I also realize that DARE has been around for a long time. It is across Canada. We've had mixed reviews. We have research stacked on one side that says it is working. We have research on the other side that says it doesn't work. So there are mixed messages.

However, I recently went to a graduation--grade five--in Georgetown, Prince Edward Island, and to see the reaction from the children who probably wouldn't have had that type of interaction with police officers and to see parents give a police officer a standing ovation for the work they've done over the 17 weeks is very encouraging.

Is it the answer to stopping drug use among these students? There will be a lot of things that influence whether they will use drugs from now until they reach adulthood. We can't predict that. It's very hard to measure.

Other programs we utilize within the school system are the race against drugs program; the two-way street program, which deals with parents talking to parents; and drugs and sports, which we're incorporating into the school system to deal with the drugs that are used by using sports as a tool to reach young people. These programs could not be implemented if it were not for the good working relationship with the various partners, especially the Department of Education and the addictions service.

I've recently become part of the harm reduction alliance steering committee ,which has a great cross-section of personnel from various professions and from frontline services dealing with substance abuse problems. These services are from police, addictions, public health, AIDS PEI, and corrections. Our objective is to formulate a strategy to put into effect the recommendations that were identified at a recent workshop on intravenous drug use on March 14 in Charlottetown.

These recommendations were for primary prevention initiatives, including working toward incorporating hepatitis C education within the school curriculum and for the general public through dissemination of hepatitis C education involving both print and visual media; partnership building between key organizations such as AIDS PEI and other health and social services professionals, government, education, and justice-related groups, so that the detriment to health in people predisposed to inject drugs may be addressed to identify at-risk populations.

Ongoing work in the area of harm reduction can occur, including developing and implementing strategies that may lead at-risk individuals and families to healthier lifestyles.

The third recommendation is to provide outreach services to intravenous drug users by collaborating with and paralleling the work of AIDS PEI to implement harm reduction programs through the province, possibly including a needle exchange program in at least one health region.

¿ (0925)

In regard to a drug prevention role, as I said, we rely mostly on the student drug survey that was done in 1998, outlining the three major drugs of choice. Other drugs that have been identified within P.E.I. have been previously mentioned from the enforcement role: cocaine, Dilaudid. These are what the young people are identifying as far as injection drug use is concerned.

From talking to young people in P.E.I., poly-drug use is common. With prescription drug use, such as Valium, Dilaudid, Ritalin, as with other provinces, it is found that prescription drugs are issued by a few physicians quite liberally. I think this problem was addressed in Newfoundland. It was identified that Dilaudid was one of the main drugs of choice. Since the prescription monitoring system came into effect, I believe there has been a decrease in that, but to my knowledge, we don't have a prescription monitoring system in Prince Edward Island at the present time.

As for the areas that hinder the effectiveness of the drug awareness programming, I think one area is the public opinion surrounding the perceived risk of drug use. At the present time, it shows that the perceived risk is down, so drug use is on the rise. At present the public perceives the risk as low, and after a steady decline, it is shown to be on the rise.

The second area is that our young people are receiving mixed messages very loudly. We're getting mixed messages from our media, from the political scene, the Internet, issues surrounding medical marijuana, legalization versus decriminalization. When I'm addressing this in a school setting, when the young people hear “medicinal marijuana”, they're confused or they receive mixed messages. Just as an example, there was an article in the paper last week--this is dated April 4:

“What is a pot smoker to think? He wakes up one morning and reads three headlines: “Heavy marijuana use lowers IQ, study finds”; “Effects of pot on IQ temporary”; and then another headline from another national paper, “Smoking pot no risk to IQ”.

This is one example of the mixed messages we receive, and the students absorb this. From the point of view of a drug prevention program, it does hinder us.

I guess the main message for us to send to the children is that drugs are illegal because they are dangerous, not dangerous because they illegal.

Thank you.

¿ (0930)

The Chair: Thank you, Corporal Murray.

I'll now turn to my colleagues for questions. While I introduce everybody with a political affiliation, let me tell you that this is probably one of the least partisan committees in the House of Commons. People are pursuing different lines of questioning, and others in the room are also very interested in their pursuit.

I'll first turn to Randy White, for about 10 minutes.

If one of the members of Parliament addresses a question to you directly, hopefully you'll want to answer that. You don't have to, I suppose, but hopefully you will. If you haven't had the question directed to you but you would also like to comment, just give me a little signal and I'll keep track and will turn to you as well. Hopefully the questions and the answers will be succinct.

Mr. Randy White (Langley--Abbotsford, Canadian Alliance): Thank you.

Thank you all for coming, I realize it was short notice, but even short notice is important... to see how well prepared you are.

Maureen, I probably came right across the country to hear the most important message I think I've heard yet in harm reduction, and that is that abstinence is the long-term goal. I haven't found that very prominent in many of the discussions we've had with people who are involved in harm reduction.

I wanted to ask you this. Included in harm reduction are such things as safe shoot-up sites, for instance. Do you find that fits in with something called harm reduction?

Ms. Maureen McIver: I guess that would depend on where you were living. I suppose if I were living out in Vancouver and had to address the problem there... I think we have to be cognizant of the fact that this is not only an individual client addictions problem, but also that it's a public health problem. I guess what people have to do to protect the public from hepatitis C infections, hepatitis B and HIV/AIDS, you know, is to resort to drastic measures.

This is only a personal opinion, but I would be concerned about promoting the use of drugs with shoot-up sites. We don't have enough data in Canada, or enough research to know what the inherent risks are. Other countries have data. I think we need to be really careful. I sometimes wonder what harm reduction programs will be needed to reduce the harm from harm reduction programs.

I really do feel there needs to be a massive education program at the national level. We have seen the effect that advertising about tobacco has had on the population. Maybe it's time to start putting public education programs in place for all drugs of abuse in the hope that we'll be able to prevent some of these injection sites from appearing across the country.

Mr. Randy White: I've often categorized harm reduction as harm extension in some areas. I remain to be convinced that it's not...

Can any of you tell me how many people are involved in drug-taking in P.E.I., approximately? I am referring to regular users of marijuana, heroin, cocaine, any of those.

Cpl Ken Murray: I know injection drug use is estimated to be somewhere in the area of around 400, and that, I think, is in the high end. Anywhere between 250 and 400, that's what they believe, for intravenous drug users. As for the other statistics, I'm not aware of them.

Mr. Randy White: If you're an injection drug user, to get your drugs I suppose more often than not you'd be involved in crime of sorts, either that or prostitution or stealing, that sort of thing. Is that fair to say?

Cpl Ken Murray: Yes. I guess the percentage they put on it is that about 80% of our crime is associated with substance abuse in some form, whether the person was high when they committed the crime or was associated with it. I believe it's probably the same here, as far as thefts and assaults and so on are concerned.

An hon. member: Did you say 80%?

Cpl Ken Murray: Yes, the statistic we use is that 80% of all our crime is associated with substance abuse in some way.

¿ (0935)

The Chair: Can I have a clarification to Mr. White's question about drug use in P.E.I.? Ms. McIver, you described it as including alcohol, nicotine, and illicit drugs. You had an answer of 400 people on IV drugs. But is there another answer here somewhere?

¿ (0940)

Ms. Maureen McIver: The main drugs used on P.E.I. by most people are alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis. But there is a significant number of prescribed drugs being used. There's also concern regarding the misuse of drugs by seniors.

Mr. Randy White: I was going to get to that, actually.

Wayne, you talked about harm reduction. You also talked about controlled drinking within harm reduction versus, not-controlled drug injection, but an abstinence drug injection program, which is the opposite of a controlled program. Could you explain what you were referring to?

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes. I never spoke of a drug injection program. When we speak about harm reduction, we mean that we use harm reduction in our rehabilitation programs insofar as we meet the client where the client lives at the time they enter our service. When we do such things such as motivational counselling and/or bridge counselling, we may begin that process while the client is still active in their addiction. But we try very hard to enable the client to break through the denial and so on in order to move them towards an abstinence program, which is where rehab comes in--for three weeks, a therapeutic rehab program.

Mr. Randy White: Okay. We may get back to that a little later.

I just want to ask Rick a question. If locally grown marijuana is a problem in P.E.I., would you agree to a program of decriminalization--for instance, just a summary conviction for possession--or do you think since...?

I come from British Columbia, where our main crop is marijuana, unfortunately, where many people are saying you can't stop that, it's everywhere. And it is everywhere, even in my community, which is the same size as the population of P.E.I. Many people are saying, why not just legalize the darn stuff, control it, because you can't stop it anyway.

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: I can understand that perception. In corresponding with my counterparts across the country, I think, yes, even perhaps an enforcement officer in British Columbia might feel that way, considering the vast problem they encounter. Nevertheless, that's not our organizational opinion. We're not in favour of any form of legalizing marijuana at the present time.

In directing our operations, I don't discriminate between what's really more important, a marijuana or a cocaine organization. I do know that perhaps cocaine, as a so-called harder drug, does create more problems. Addiction levels are different as well because of it. But, no, it's one big project here for us--drug abuse in general.

Mr. Randy White: How about summary convictions for possession as opposed to criminal offence?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: To a certain degree we have that now, with the introduction of the CDSA, the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. It depends on the amounts and whether or not it's a summary conviction or whether fingerprints are taken for permanent record, that type of thing. If it's a small amount, that doesn't come into play anymore.

If the question is legalization, it's now a summary conviction. Obviously the legislation is there now. I'd have to assume there was a demand for it and therefore it was introduced and passed.

¿ (0945)

Mr. Randy White: Thank you.

The Chair: Are you good, Randy?

Mr. Randy White: Yes. I'll catch up later.

The Chair: Okay. Can I clarify something?

You're against legalization. Are you against decriminalization? Do you see them as different?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: No, not really. In my opinion, I believe it's the same. If there's an official definition, I'm not aware of it.

The Chair: Okay.

Cpl Ken Murray: May I?

The Chair: Yes.

Cpl Ken Murray: Getting back to the mixed messages out there, when the general public hears a definition of “decriminalization” or “legalization”, I think it's confusing for the average person. If they're listening to it on TV or to debates about it, trying to explain that basically we are in a form of decriminalization as far as a summary conviction offence goes....

I think what a lot of people look at is, if we have a federal statute, let's make it fair for everyone. In British Columbia, if a young person is caught with a joint, is he going to go to provincial court? He probably will not. If he's caught in a vehicle smoking a joint in rural P.E.I., is he going to go to court? Chances are he will. It has to be a fair playing field.

The Chair: Actually, to make it even more complicated, if they're in a car in B.C., they probably would go to court. If they're not in a car, they wouldn't go to court.

If they're not in a car in P.E.I. and they're not in a car in B.C., then what?

Ms. Libby Davies (Vancouver East, NDP): Are you suggesting there's a level playing field?

Cpl Ken Murray: No, I believe there should be. When we have a federal statue, I believe it should be as fair for a person in British Columbia as it is for a person in a rural area on Prince Edward Island.

On the part of decriminalization, we're decriminalized now, to a degree, beginning with the amounts we have. I know there is debate as to whether it should be taken out, with no appearance in provincial court, or whether it should be a fine, as opposed to an appearance in provincial court. I think there has to be increased....

The Chair: Unanimity?

Cpl Ken Murray: Yes. If a person keeps going back to court, there have to be consequences. Very strict restrictions have to be put in. It's what they're talking about on decriminalization. I think it's something that can be looked at.

The Chair: Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. White.

Thank you to our panellists.

I'll now turn to Ms. Davies for ten minutes. Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: First of all, thank you very much for coming, especially so early in the morning.

The Chair: It's not early for them.

Ms. Libby Davies: Whatever time zone you're in, it has been a very interesting discussion. I have several things I'd like to follow up.

I'm also from B.C. I'm from Vancouver East. Actually, contrary to Randy, I don't look at harm reduction as being harm extension. I look at it as a very important component of an overall strategy that does include abstinence. Depending on the situation, harm reduction can be a very important measure to reduce the harm not only to individual users but to the community as a whole.

I'm talking about safe injection sites. I actually represent the neighbourhood where there has been sort of an epidemic. Today, actually starting yesterday, the First United Church is setting up a demonstration site of safe injection sites. The death toll is now so high from overdoses that having safe injection facilities is seen as a public health measure to actually save lives. It's stopping people from shooting up on the streets, back alleys, doorways, and so on. Anyway, I guess it's all a matter of how you look at it.

I have a couple of questions, first of all to you, Maureen. When you spoke a little bit about needle exchanges, you actually were quoting, I think, the American Medical Journal. That raised a curious question for me that's come up before at the committee. That is, do you have any perception or understanding about Canada's drug strategy? We have, we think, a wealth of information--or maybe not--from Health Canada about needle exchanges, about harm reduction, about prevention, education. Do you have a sense that any of that body of work is influencing or assisting you or acting as a resource for you here in P.E.I.?

¿ (0950)

Ms. Maureen McIver: Very definitely so. I know about the paper that has been put out by Health Canada. The two organizations I used in trying to get this presentation ready.... I grabbed whatever I could to back up what I was saying; I just didn't have the time to do a thorough literature search. I went to the U.S. The Clinton administration did a thorough internal review, so I thought it might be a good survey to look at. But no, you're right, Canada has done a lot in this area too.

Ms. Libby Davies: That's actually one of the questions we're looking at. There is a lot of material, but we're trying to assess what the federal government's involvement should be. What should it focus on? You talked earlier about mixed messages. I think there is a lack of direction about what Canada's drug strategy should be. It's not that it's all okay, but I was just curious to know how much you see it as being useful to you in your local work.

The other thing I wanted to pick up on concerns education, both from the DARE program's point of view and from your point of view. I think, Corporal Murray, you said drugs are illegal because they're dangerous, and yet it seems to me that probably the most dangerous drugs of all aren't illegal; they are legal. So I have a lot of questions about education being carried out by law enforcement officials. I can't conceive of the idea that you'd carry out sex education by cops. Most people would see that as something that's got to come from school counsellors or health care providers, and I don't know why it's any different with drugs. The only difference is that it's illegal. So it gets back to this message Wayne raised, that you could either focus on the good-bad, which is really the enforcement side, or the illness-health.

I wanted to ask you what you think in terms of prevention and education and whether we're wise to have that actually carried out by law enforcement officials, and whether the message becomes relevant to kids when they're told, “If you smoke marijuana you'll end up as a cocaine addict”, when kids know that isn't true.

Cpl Ken Murray: From a police perspective, I'm very pleased to go into a school to do drug education. I'm there as a police officer, as a father, as a grandfather. Do I want my kids smoking marijuana? No, I don't. From a police perspective, we're front line. I'm the person who goes to a house and sees the disruption in a family. I'm the person who may attend the suicide. I'm the person who may attend the fatal accident. I'm the person who attends your house if it's broken into. I'm the person who attends the assaults, whether they be sexual, or aggravated assault in some other degree.

I think going into a school of grade fives or grade sixes and giving first-hand knowledge is very important. It shows credibility to say I have seen this. I can't come from the perspective that I use drugs and I can tell them what they do, or whatever, but I can tell them all the things that surround the drug use. I can tell them that if they get involved in the drug culture and they owe money to the drug culture, it isn't like going to Household Finance and having something repossessed. I can tell them they run the risk, not only for their family but also for themselves, of physical harm.

So, no, from a police perspective, I believe it is very important that the police be seen as educators in the Department of Education's school curriculum. This is another recommendation from the students, bringing in people who have the knowledge to give them this information. As a policeman, I feel it's very important because I'm the one who, at three o'clock in the morning, has seen everything associated with drug abuse. I think that's very important to portray or give to the kids.

¿ (0955)

Ms. Libby Davies: But if the message is about education and about focusing on intelligent choices, about improving your health, including choices about tobacco, for example, I think we do send out very mixed messages. This is particularly true when the education message is more to the effect that this is bad for you and it's illegal, rather than a message or program that is based on how to take care of yourself, how to make good choices about what you do or don't do. It's a really different kind of shift.

You mentioned that the DARE programs had mixed reviews. I really wonder if it's the appropriate vehicle to be delivering that kind of very broad message. Has it been successful?

Maybe Kevin wants to....

The Chair: Mr. Murray.

Cpl Ken Murray: I can say that I can't go into a school and--I agree from one point--give the medical part of it, say, yes, if you smoke this or this.... Healthwise, we can't bring it from that angle. As for the other angle, as far as what you see is concerned, it's out there. It's in society every day. Yes, I think the message is very important with respect to a police officer's role.

As for the DARE program, to go into a school and see the interaction with a police officer, to be able to give life skills, whether to my child or to yours, about how they can become better citizens.... My whole hope is that they never use drugs. I think that message is very strong from the police perspective.

The Chair: Just before I go to Mr. McKinnon, may I ask, does that include alcohol and tobacco?

Cpl Ken Murray: Certainly. When we are doing drug talks, we include alcohol and tobacco.

The Chair: Mr. McKinnon.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: That is something I wanted to point out too, that with the programs we do, with the seven youth counsellors who work across the province and who carry out the student assistance programs, it's not based on the legal side of things, that drugs are bad and that they are illegal. It's very much focused on the health risk and focused on how someone can cope with it if they have it in their family. It does very much involve the so-called legal drugs too, like tobacco and alcohol, and the harm involved with those as well.

Ms. Libby Davies: How many schools is your program involved with compared to the DARE program, then?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: I can't speak for the DARE program, but I can speak for the student assistance program. Just in the Queens region alone, this year we were involved in 18 different schools, ranging from the elementary school right up to the high school level.

Ms. Libby Davies: Is that most of the schools in Queens?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: That's most schools--not all, but most, from the elementary level right up to the high school level. I would estimate that there are approximately 30 schools island-wide . Again, that doesn't represent all schools, but it represents a majority of schools. For the most part they volunteer their schools to us, saying that they want some information, and that's how we go about getting the programs off the ground. They express some interest, we supply the service, and that's how it works.

Ms. Libby Davies: Do I have more time?

À (1000)

The Chair: You have a minute.

Ms. Libby Davies: I'll wait till the next round.

The Chair: It would be a generous minute because I'd commented.

Mr. Clark.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes, when we say smoking pot does not make coke addicts, I think we need to be careful, because many of the people we deal with, chemically dependent people, started out smoking a joint now and then or having a glass of wine with dinner or whatever and ended up very much in the throes of addiction.

The Chair: Madame Allard.

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard (Laval East, Lib.): I personally want to thank you for coming today. I have several questions. I am sure you realize this topic is of great interest to us, the members of this committee.

I will start with Mr. Gibbons. Are you able to tell us about the quality of the drugs that are sold on the market? Do you think the lack of control jeopardizes the health of young drug users?

[English]

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: If I can refer to marijuana, for instance, in regard to the quality, because it's an illegal substance, any time it's sold it's obviously not a legal act, so therefore there's absolutely no control on the quality.

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: My question is more specific. Does it happen here in Prince Edward Island, as it does regularly in Quebec, that young people take drugs and end up in hospital because the pills or drugs are cut with something that threatens the user's health? Have there been cases in Prince Edward Island where youths have been very sick because they had consumed certain drugs?

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Gibbons.

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: Not that I'm aware of. Usually, the cases I've heard of where someone requires hospitalization after consuming drugs would be more related to the quantity they consumed. That's not to say it hasn't happened with certain types of drugs that are cut with other agents. Perhaps cocaine, for instance, could be cut with a number of things, and perhaps a toxic substance or whatever, but I've never been made aware of that. But I'm not saying it couldn't happen either; it just hasn't been reported to us.

The Chair: You might have to say that to the health department.

Mr. McKinnon, did you have a comment?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: No.

The Chair: Nobody else?

Madame Allard.

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Ms. McIver, is homelessness a fairly serious problem in Prince Edward Island?

[English]

Ms. Maureen McIver: We do have a problem with homelessness on P.E.I. We did have numbers recently.

Wayne, can you help me? Was it 100-and-some people on the island at any given time are homeless? I think it was a hundred.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes, somewhere around there.

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Are you able to tell whether those people have a mental health problem as well as a drug problem?

[English]

Ms. Maureen McIver: I don't know about all the hundreds, but I do know that currently we have a shelter unit in Charlottetown that houses the homeless alcoholics who sometimes are picked up on the streets. They're not taken to jail; they're taken to the shelter.

Some of those individuals do have a concurrent disorder. I am aware that some people who do have concurrent disorders haven't ended up in that shelter. There are those in that population who have both a substance abuse and a mental health disorder.

À (1005)

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Are you able to tell us whether those with mental health problems are also drug addicts?

[English]

Ms. Maureen McIver: I'll let Wayne answer that one.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Many of them would.

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Ms. McIver, you said there was a conspiracy of silence in the case of drugs, and I would like you to expand on that.

[English]

Ms. Maureen McIver: What I was referring to is that many people end up in our acute care institutions, doctors' offices, mental health facilities, and social services offices, and very little screening is done to determine whether there is in fact an alcohol or other drug problem. Sometimes even the very obvious cases don't get addressed. Nobody wants to talk about it. They just hope it will go away.

I think a conspiracy of silence surrounds the stigma part of addiction. I don't believe people have accepted yet that addiction is an illness. I really do believe they see it as a bad, weak, stupid, crazy thing. I think what happens is that the behaviour of the person who has the addiction gets judged, and they fail to see that there's an illness behind it. Because they think it's not an illness, they don't talk about it. They don't want to embarrass anybody. They don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. Instead of their being matter of fact about it, the same as you would about any other health problem or illness, it doesn't get addressed.

I really believe there needs to be much more public education. To hit the numbers of people we need to hit, it needs to come from the national level. Start talking about it. Bring it out into the open so that people can start thinking about addiction as something different. Sometimes I wonder how much our society and our health care system enable the problem to continue. They treat a medical problem. They don't address the addiction problem, so the person keeps on with their addiction. We expect the person with an addiction to be in denial, but I think that unfortunately a lot of our health care providers and others in our society are in denial.

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Thank you, Ms. McIver.

I have a question for each of you, if you would like to answer. I would like to have your opinion.

Do you think allowing marijuana to be used for therapeutic purposes sent out a mixed message? Mr. Murray, I would like you to be the first to answer because you say there is an increasing amount of confusion and that the message about drugs is increasingly contradictory.

[English]

Cpl Ken Murray: I do believe there is a mixed message out there, especially from a prevention or education perspective. When we go into a school, what is the first thing we hear from the young people? When we hang the medicinal logo on marijuana, the first thing they throw back to policemen, while you are trying to get your message across, is that the government thinks it can be used for medicinal purposes. You have to try to explain the reality of it, that it isn't widespread and that not just anybody can apply for it. They do get mixed messages when they see the medicinal word out there, and they take it that it is good for you. They associate the two.

The Chair: Does anybody else wish to comment?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Yes, just to repeat what Ken is saying, really. With the students I run into, it's one of the first things that comes out of their mouths. It's very prevalent, and it definitely is causing some confusion, for sure.

The Chair: Anyone else?

À (1010)

Ms. Maureen McIver: Well, I'm not on the front lines with clients, but I do hear from people in the services that, yes, it does give confused messages.

Mr. Wayne Clark: We're certainly starting to see it rear its head in rehab, people who are addicted to THC coming in and saying, “I'm using it for medicinal purposes, you know, so I have to smoke it.”

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: I believe it's such a relatively new concept there's probably some education that could be done. I think it's probably the first time we've ever had a drug that was totally illegal with some conditions made for legal consumption. Substances such as tobacco, alcohol, and some of the narcotics have always been obtained legally, but this is really something new for everyone.

The Chair: Thank you, Madame Allard.

Just before I turn to Mr. Sorenson, there's been lots of talk about how a glass of red wine might be good for medicinal purposes. It reduces your stress level or what have you. Is that confusing your messages to people who are alcoholics?

Unfortunately, we can't record nods.

Ms. Maureen McIver: I don't really believe so. I think most people with alcoholism know that there are people who can control their alcohol use.

Mr. Wayne Clark: But those who are still in denial would certainly try to go down that road, I would suspect.

The Chair: Ritalin is a product that is controlled and that has specific medical uses, yet a lot of young people are using it in an illegal way. Is that confusing people at all?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Personally, I think most youth know what Ritalin is for. They know it's prescribed for people with ADHD. They are using it just to get high, but they know the medical reason for Ritalin. The education is out there. I don't know if the education is out there on what marijuana is for.

The Chair: Mr. Sorenson for 10 minutes.

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: Thank you.

First of all, just in response to the chair's question that was posed there, I have seen individuals at mass, almost a whole row of people, not partake in communion, at least the wine part, because they recognize, through their Alcoholics Anonymous, that they can't have even a taste of it. So for some individuals, I think, the message of moderation is the message that is the perfect message, but for some it has to be abstinence.

That's sometimes where harm reduction misses the mark, too, because I think quite often we have the message that we're just trying to reduce harm, and there is no harm...and it's misinterpreted. Those messages of harm reduction are misunderstood when we just want to lower the harm value.

But I want to commend the witnesses this morning for coming here today. I have just a couple of quick questions.

First of all, what problems are unique to Prince Edward Island? We have Talbot House here, we have provincial representation, we have the RCMP. We've already heard from the RCMP that the abilities of those to bring drugs in perhaps are limited. The coastline makes it easy, in one way, being uncontrolled.

What are the specific concerns or problems you have because of the fact that it's an island rather than a mainland? Are there any? Maybe there are none. Maybe this is a very general....

À (1015)

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: Speaking specifically from an enforcement view, I've worked drug enforcement in other divisions. I personally don't find much difference here, anything unique, from my perspective in terms of either enforcing the laws or the different types of drugs. It's like anything else here on the island; it's all in relation to the population base. I believe we have just the same problems as anywhere else, although perhaps not as many because of the number of people we have here.

That's not to say that some of the other witnesses wouldn't have seen something else.

The Chair: Where else have you been posted, Mr. Gibbons?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: I've worked in Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia.

The Chair: Ms. McIver, I think you wanted to comment.

Ms. Maureen McIver: I was just going to say that on Prince Edward Island, our main drugs are still tobacco, alcohol, and cannabis. We see the tragedies with alcohol in terms of broken homes and families, accidents, medical problems, and some homeless people, but I think those are the main problems. With the younger people, binge drinking sometimes can cause some very serious problems, including death.

I think there is some concern also on the island about mixing other drugs with alcohol, resulting in death.

Again, I think there is a lot of public education needed to talk about drugs, about what are the dangers. I think this needs to be done from a national level. Of course, smoking is another major addiction for island kids and adults as well.

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: Just quickly, does Charlottetown have a separate police force or is it by the RCMP solely? What are the numbers of the RCMP on the island? Have we seen them decrease over the last ten years, and by how much?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: We have approximately 100 members of the RCMP in L Division, which is Prince Edward Island. I believe that's been fairly static, or at least it has in the last ten years since I've been here.

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: So probably 20 detachments, perhaps, or 25?

Cpl Ken Murray: No, five separate detachments.

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: And 100 RCMP. Okay.

Do you think we've given prevention enforcement a fair shake? One of the things we've talked about in this committee over the past two months is that we just can't do this by enforcement alone.

I'm a big believer in the DARE program. We have RCMP back in Alberta, and I get the letters arriving from students and also parents. You've commented that you've had standing ovations. I think parents realize that, as I believe, the RCMP are among the best in going out to schools.

I think we need balance. I think we need to have those people who see the front line problems and concerns because of it, who go to that car accident and see the bottles lying all over, who go to homes where there are fears of drugs and blood and all that kind of thing.

So the letters I've received on the DARE program are positive. We need balance. We need individuals, as Ms. Davies has suggested, who come from the social end of it and who can talk about a different aspect of drug control and prevention and harm reduction and all those things.

Do all five separate detachments have the DARE program going to the schools?

Cpl Ken Murray: No. We started about a year and a half ago, and at present we have only seven officers trained for DARE because of logistics and because of the members we do have. The ratio in other divisions is probably very comparative.

The plan is to try to train at least five officers each year. Our next training is coming up in the fall, and hopefully we'll have three or four more.

As well, this is not an RCMP program but a policing program, and it has been offered to the municipal police forces in Prince Edward Island--Summerside city, Kensington, Borden PD, and Charlottetown. At present, the only municipal force with a trained DARE officer is Charlottetown, and hopefully they'll have one from the other municipalities in the near future.

We have it in all the school zones. We have three school districts, and it is in the eastern school and the western school. And we have one in the French school board. The material has been completed now to be able to be presented to the French school board, and our plan is to get a French officer trained to address that issue.

À (1020)

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: There is no needle exchange on Prince Edward Island. There is no need for it, so there is none.

I think those are all the questions I have right now.

The Chair: Thank you.

Before I start another round, can I ask a few questions? Is that okay with you? All right.

Technically, in Canada, people talk about us having a balanced approach. They figure that we're working on demand reduction and supply reduction. But the Auditor General, in her most recent report right before Christmas, said that 95% of federal government spending is on supply reduction.

Part of that, in terms of the numbers, could be that most of the most obvious health aspects of drug addiction are dealt with by the provinces, and the education system is by and large provincial. On the other hand, of course, there's a lot of provincial policing involved in supply reductions.

Has any kind of accounting been done in the province of P.E.I. to see what activities are demand reduction and what activities are supply reduction?

Ms. Maureen McIver: Not to my knowledge.

The Chair: Okay. Perhaps we can send a letter to the Auditor General for this province, because the Auditor General's representative was saying that one of the challenges is to get each of the provinces to do this. If we don't know what everybody's doing, then it's a little hard to evaluate whether any of our programs are working, for instance.

Mr. Sorenson wants to tag onto that.

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: Just to go back to Mr. Clark, who funds Talbot House? Is it the province?

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes.

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: So it's completely provincial.

Thank you.

The Chair: Second, how many citizens are living in P.E.I. at present? Is it above 120,000 or...

A voice: It's 158,000.

The Chair: So your number of beds for detox is actually fairly impressive compared with some places we've seen, and for rehab it's fairly impressive compared with some places we've been.

You talked about the role of doctors, nurses, health care professionals and others who are dealing with people, and this conspiracy of silence. There used to be a whole program of mother's little helpers, which kept people nice and drugged and calm for years. There are concerns in some parts of the country about prescription drug use, whether it's Prozac or other drugs; about this whole issue of physicians double-prescribing or not being aware of what's going on; and about pharmacists actually somehow participating in this process.

Is there a concerted effort in this province to bring them in and be part of the solution, to make sure they understand? Is there an education program amongst physicians and nursing professionals and pharmacists?

Ms. Maureen McIver: There are some nursing students who do some clinical experience within addiction services.

À (1025)

The Chair: Just some?

Ms. Maureen McIver: Just some.

The Chair: It's not a core subject.

Ms. Maureen McIver: No, and I really do believe this is what needs to happen. It needs to become a core part of the curriculum.

I don't know who would be in a position to make that happen. Whether it's the Canadian Medical Society or the Canadian Nurses Association that could have some leverage here, I don't know, but the question is, who's going to influence them?

I really do believe that needs to happen, because an awful lot of health and economic costs are related to our legal drugs.

The Chair: Is there a nursing faculty here at the University of P.E.I.?

Ms. Maureen McIver: Yes, there is.

The Chair: But there's no medical faculty.

Ms. Maureen McIver: No.

The Chair: Well, perhaps talking to the nursing faculty might be one step.

You talked about the misuse among seniors. I know in our community we're concerned about not just prescription drug misuse but also the interaction with alcohol and the increasing incidence of seniors who are alone and are consuming perhaps more than they might realize in terms of alcohol.

Is that a program that is being... Are you concerned about that or are there some new initiatives with regard to seniors and their health care and addiction?

Ms. Maureen McIver: There perhaps is at the community level. The concerns for seniors include how much information a senior knows about the prescription they are taking. I think pharmacists are trying to educate people to return the unused prescriptions in their home. Seniors like to hoard their prescriptions and maybe a couple of years down the road take something that they think might be good for them when it probably is outdated and probably would have a bad interaction with other drugs they're taking.

So I really do think that at the community level, whether it's in the home care programs or public health, there needs to be a multidisciplinary approach to assisting seniors with prescription drug use. The over-the-counter drug is another problem.

The Chair: Corporal Murray, you talked about being first in line to visit families where there's been tragedy or disruption or violence because of drug use. I think in some ways you were talking about drugs in terms of LSD and heroin and those kinds of drugs. But wouldn't the bulk of your calls be actually alcohol-related and not drug-related, if we were going to be dividing up the categories? I mean, they're certainly not tobacco calls, but they're definitely.... Are they related more to alcohol or illicit drug use?

Cpl Ken Murray: They deal mostly with alcohol, but certainly there is other drug use as well. Alcohol seems to be one of the prevalent drugs in the area.

The Chair: There we have a whole system of government generating revenue and advertising. You know, talk about mixed messages in media; everybody in the movies is always drinking and having a good time, and it would seem to be very confusing for young people. Certainly in most homes there is some consumption of alcohol. Kids see that message more, I think, than...you know, someone telling me not to try marijuana, which, if anything, is probably non-violent and puts you to sleep more than alcohol would.

Do kids really get into that when you're talking to them, the difference between a parent who has a couple of beers every night saying “Don't do drugs” and their own understanding of the situation?

Cpl Ken Murray: I think we know that as adults we sometimes give wrong messages to kids simply by going home, walking through the door, and saying, “We're stressed out, give Dad a beer.” That sends a message to young people. What do you do when you're stressed? Well, you have beer or whatever.

Kids see the messages in, let's say, advertising on tobacco. There's a lot of emphasis on tobacco, “Don't smoke tobacco”. We put out the nice pictures on the cartons and stuff, and we make the distinction between mild tobacco and whether they're filtered and so on, but health-wise, one joint of marijuana is equal to 15 cigarettes. And yet we don't seem to be saying too much about the marijuana issue. So I think kids get a mixed message there.

Cigarettes are a big problem, but when you do the comparisons, when the medical people do the comparisons from the research.... So it sends the wrong message.

À (1030)

The Chair: Just on that, we had a presentation by a group that was very concerned about the mixed messages. Certainly in acute cases, for people who are going to die in six months, you're not necessarily worried about lung cancer, but for people who are using marijuana for chronic conditions--MS and others--it's a bit odd to be telling them to smoke something and put themselves at risk for lung cancer and other cancers. So they did make an interesting presentation about that.

We've heard from some physicians along the road, as we've been visiting, that they're a bit concerned about the messages around the medical use of marijuana, and whether benefits could somehow be derived in other ways that would be healthier for them.

Mr. Clark.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Just to comment on marijuana being relaxing, making you laid back and that sort of thing, we've certainly seen the other side of that coin.

The Chair: Is that right?

Mr. Wayne Clark: Some people coming through our treatment programs have experienced very severe negative consequences as a direct result of their use of THC.

The Chair: Like what?

Mr. Wayne Clark: Loss of families, jobs, financial difficulties. They're smoking huge amounts in order to address their addiction.

The Chair: But in terms of physical responses, are people losing their jobs because they're becoming sort of lazy, or is it because they're--

Mr. Wayne Clark: They don't show up.

The Chair: But it's not usually the same sort of reaction you'd get from an alcoholic or from a binge drinker in terms of someone becoming boisterous or rowdy or violent.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes, but I don't think you can base the problem on just whether or not it causes violence.

The Chair: No, no, I was referring specifically to Mr. Murray talking about coming to a family home where there's just been an incident of violence, or there's a specific response related more to rowdiness--in terms of kids' response and understanding of it, too.

Mr. Wayne Clark: It's probably more from a child and family services point of view, where they're going in to take the children because of--

The Chair: Alcohol or marijuana?

Mr. Wayne Clark: Both, or either/or.

The Chair: Ms. McIver.

Ms. Maureen McIver: I think we also need to be concerned about the number of people who get behind the wheel of a car and who are smoking marijuana. You know, kids get the message that you don't drink and drive, but what about cannabis?

The Chair: On that point, Mr. McKinnon, I've certainly been hearing from some young people that they get the message on drinking and driving, and the message is, “Don't get caught”. It's not about the effects of being impaired. It's not about not causing harm to somebody else. It's about not getting caught.

In our province there's a RIDE program down the street. Well, the RIDE program right now can't test for THC, so some young people are saying, “Great, I'll smoke a joint instead; I'm still in the mood for a party, but I'm not going to get busted by the cops down the street.”

To Libby's point about reducing risk and understanding why you might not want to do certain things, there's probably a better message here, and that is, you don't want to be impaired behind the wheel of a car because you might hurt yourself and others. And that message is in fact a bit of a distraction, or is confused by some of our current education around “Don't drink and drive”, because it's about this getting caught thing, not about you wouldn't want to hurt anybody.

Are you hearing that from young people?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Certainly SADD, Students Against Drunk Driving, and MADD are very well-established programs in the province around drinking and driving, and for the most part, young people aren't doing it today.

The Chair: Drinking and driving.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Yes, from what I see. But I do see that there is some confusion over that. A lot of them will use marijuana and drive. I have heard that.

So, yes, I guess there are some mixed messages out there that it may be okay. I mean, certainly part of our program of education and prevention is stating that it's not okay, for sure.

We're putting the message out there, but I think there needs to be more. Youth certainly know today that it's not okay to drink and drive. That's not the way it was 20 years ago.

The Chair: No.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: That's working, I guess is what I'm saying, so maybe there needs to be more put out toward the fact that it's not okay to use and drive, either.

À (1035)

The Chair: And be careful of your prescription drugs as well when driving.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Yes.

The Chair: Officer Murray, were you trying to comment?

Cpl Ken Murray: In terms of the enforcement role, the use of marijuana is a trend I think they're seeing through the insurance side of it in terms of accidents, with more people using marijuana. Maybe not in this province but I know in other provinces, although I can't quote the statistics, people are using marijuana and not as much alcohol. From the enforcement part of it, we have no provisions to measure for THC.

The Chair: At this point.

Cpl Ken Murray: At this point, yes. In British Columbia we have the drug recognition expert program, and I don't know to what extent that's being.... Police officers are trained to be able to say, within a very high percentage, what drug the person is on. Take an impaired driving case, for instance. If they took them back for a breathalyzer and they registered a very low reading, the trained experts on this course could say, yes, we're 88% or 90% sure that person is under the effects of LSD or cocaine. They can break it down to the individual drug category.

However, you can see the difficulty in walking into court with this. First, you don't have a sample or anything tangible to say...whether it's blood or urine to be tested, nor do we have any provisions under the Criminal Code to say, for instance, that you want a blood sample or a urine sample for drugs.

I think that message is getting out there, and is well known, too.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Mr. White.

Mr. Randy White: You know, it scares me, all this... [Technical difficulty--Editor] ...today. Growing up in rural Nova Scotia, it was nothing for us young fellows to go to the bootleggers on Friday night and get a bottle of wine and split it, or get a few beers and split it, and to smoke cigarettes and that sort of thing. But today, if you smoke heroin or crack, you only have do it a few times and you're in a different lifestyle for the rest of your life.

I think those are the problems we have today. The experimenting when I was young was different from what the experimenting is today. If you look at Ecstasy, we don't even know if it's addictive, really. It's a relatively new drug. But you don't even know what you're taking when you take this stuff. It's made in garages and basements.

I'm trying to get at that issue through these discussions and wrestle in my own mind with how on earth, other than education, really... is what we have to spend more at.

Drugs have not been studied by the House of Commons since 1972, with the Le Dain commission. In those days, I think, cannabis was the study, and cannabis didn't even have near the strength it does today. So here we are in the year 2002, studying the drug issue, which I think is a little late. It's already in our face and has been for a number of years, and yet here we are studying it; we have to make some recommendations by November 30 this year. They hopefully will be recommendations that are meaningful, that will take effect at the street level, that will really do something rather than just be government rhetoric.

I want to ask a couple of questions of you, each of you; this is really important. I want to ask you if you could give us your top two priorities. We have to make recommendations to the House of Commons that are meaningful. We want them to be implemented. I'd like to get from each of you the top two that you think would really be the most effective and the most useful.

I also want to ask you whether or not you think...and I don't really want to get onto the marijuana thing. Personally, I'm really more interested in the addictive drugs. That's not to say that marijuana is not addictive, but I'd like to get into the cocaine and crack and heroin and so on. I want to ask you whether or not you think marijuana is a gateway drug to other drugs, whether it leads into it, whether or not you get a certain addiction to marijuana and move to other addictive substances or whether or not it's just a...well, like I did when I was young, I drank beer and then moved into rum and rye and so on and so forth. Does marijuana actually start you on the road to addiction? You know, “I'll just try a more potent drug, since this one didn't hurt me.”

First, then, can each of you tell me whether you think marijuana leads to drug addiction, and secondly, can you give us your top two priorities for this committee to make recommendations?

The Chair: We'll start with Maureen McIver.

Ms. Maureen McIver: In terms of my top priority, I really do believe there needs to be public education about all these drugs, about the risks involved, etc.

You know, there's been a lot of talk about legalization and decriminalization, but if you stop and look at our legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco, you see the billions of dollars they're costing the country in terms of health problems, economic problems, social problems, etc. And these are our legal drugs. If more drugs were to become legal or decriminalized, would that result in more availability and an increase in other drugs, causing all kinds of problems for society?

I think public education is a must, really. I think we really need to do more addictions research in Canada. As well, I really believe the profile of addiction services in Canada needs to be raised. I think it's causing far more problems than we dare to think at times. We all know that there are many other problems in society, and there are cutbacks in programs, but you very often notice that addictions dollars get cut back when there are dollars needed.

I think the country needs to focus on the problems of addiction and substance abuse in society and ensure that there are education programs, ensure that research is done on it, and ensure that the profile is up there.

Mr. Randy White: So you would have public education first, and addictions research.

Ms. Maureen McIver: Yes.

Mr. Randy White: And how about the marijuana; does it lead to addiction?

Ms. Maureen McIver: Well, we know that tobacco is a gateway drug that leads to marijuana. I can't say, from the literature, that it does say that cannabis is a gateway drug, but I do know that alcohol and marijuana are both sedatives. After heavy use of both of those, you can see where a person who's addicted would like to get stimulated.

In that sense, I can see them leading into other stimulants such as cocaine and other amphetamines.

Mr. Randy White: Thank you.

À (1040)

The Chair Mr. McKinnon.

À (1045)

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: First of all, on it being the gateway drug, I think a lot of the youth I'm dealing with are quite unfamiliar with what that even means. Some of them still believe that if they use marijuana that automatically means they're going to go and use cocaine or heroin or whatever the case may be. We try to educate them on that. Now, I think that's what it did mean years ago, and I think that's what the government tried to say.

In my view, however, I certainly do believe cannabis is a gateway drug, meaning that most of the people addicted to cocaine and heroin, the so-called harder drugs, or the prescription drugs, do start out by using cannabis, I would say. I don't know what the numbers are, and I don't know what the percentage is, but I'm saying that certainly a high percentage do start out by using cannabis.

If that's what gateway means, then, yes, I would certainly say it is. You don't wake up one day and say “Today's the day I'm going to use cocaine” without being involved in the so-called drug society. You don't just do that without already being involved in the drug culture of some kind.

In terms of recommendations, again, I guess my main one would also be drug education. This is speaking from a selfish point of view, I guess, but my personal view is that family education is obviously a strong point in terms of how this affects the whole family. Maureen talked earlier about people being in denial. Well, sometimes family denial is a lot stronger than the person who's using.

So I think there needs to be a lot more money or awareness put into how this addiction affects not only the person who's using but those around them as well.

And I guess research, yes, as well. We talked this morning about being confused around a lot of things. There seems to be a lot of research out there today, but I don't know.... One of the things Ken mentioned this morning was those three different headlines talking about three different things. We need to have the money there for the research and have it Canada-wide so that everybody knows about it, so that the research that's done in B.C. we know about here in P.E.I., and vice versa. It needs to be well known across Canada.

Mr. Randy White: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Clark.

Mr. Wayne Clark: I think part of what Mr. McKinnon was referring to when he talked about denial in the family comes from the same lot as the addicted individual, and that is the shame and guilt associated with this disease. I think, then, if we talk about education, it's going to help if people see it as a disease rather than as a shame-based behavioural problem.

Last year I was helping my 11-year-old with his grade 5 health homework. The book came from the United States, I believe. Wherever it came from, it stated in there very clearly the addiction of alcoholism, with the best and only treatment being Alcoholics Anonymous. I think that's a giant step forward in the education around this disease.

As for your question on whether marijuana is a gateway drug, what we see in treatment would certainly suggest that. We see people who are, as I mentioned earlier, addicted to THC. We also see people who are addicted to cocaine or other heavier drugs who started out using THC. But we also see people who started out with cocaine and we also see people who are addicted to alcohol only.

On the other piece, the education side and what needs to happen, if we are, in fact, on Prince Edward Island, leading in the field of detoxification ratios to population, and in rehab programs, as I think Ms. Torsney suggested, then I certainly think the federal government needs to take a look at more treatment for chemical dependencies through detox and rehab programs and extended care facilities.

Lacey Residence, which is our female version of the extended care facility, is one of the only ones east of Montreal, as far as we've been able to find out. And it's an eight-bed facility. Talbot House is much the same. I don't know how many men's extended care facilities exist, if any.

So we need to take a look in that direction. Prevention is very important, but we can't lose sight of treatment.

À (1050)

Mr. Randy White: So I've got you down for public education and more treatment. Those are your top two. Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Gibbons.

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: I feel that marijuana consumption can often lead to other drugs. I know in 1979, when I first started full-time drug enforcement, the only things we really investigated were marijuana and cannabis, and cocaine crept in a few years later. But I really think it's on a personal level; although not everyone who smokes marijuana is going to move on to other drugs, I think it's a good indicator. I think you're putting yourself at more risk by doing so.

As far as recommendations go, my first onef—and I guess it's almost a negative recommendationf—is that I would not like to see any more relaxation of legislation with regard to anything related to drug enforcement.

The other is more funding, resources, personnel. I could do with more people working on full-time drug enforcement as well as more people in Ken Murray's position. I also know that everyone else is looking for more money as well, even within the RCMP, for different programs. Everyone is in the same position, and the same goes for every other federal department in the country. But you asked, so...

Mr. Randy White: I did ask. Thank you.

Cpl Ken Murray: First of all, you ask whether marijuana is a gateway drug. Quite often when I go into the schools I use a very excellent tape done in B.C. by the Odd Squad, Flipping the World: Drugs Through a Blue Lens. Before the tape begins I tell the students not to just sit and watch what goes on; they should listen to what the addicts, not the policemen but the addicts, say they started with, because all of them say they started with either alcohol or marijuana.

I think statistics show that marijuana may not lead to the use of another drug, but you've already experienced that you're in a risk-taking situation. You've already shown that you want to experiment, and therefore it puts you in a higher category. That's the message I give the kids: “Will you go on to other drugs? No, nothing says you will, but it will put you at a higher risk.”

In terms of priorities, number one, I think we have to put to rest what we're going to do, or what the drug strategy should be, to quash all the rumours in all the media. Let's give clear direction on what Canada is willing to do, on what will be the drug laws so there's no hesitation. Let's put a stability onto it and very plainly state what the government's position is, that we are looking for safe home and safe communities.

One, I think that sends a message to the public that this is what the government is going to do, this is the position, and it's not open for discussion at this time. This is our road map.

Second, more support for prevention initiatives, both financially and with human resources. In the prevention role, we work very closely with addictions. This is not just a police role, and we need more money for prevention. I think our prevention initiatives should be joined up with addictions and with other organizations within our communities, because we have to all join together for our safe homes and safe communities.

À (1055)

Mr. Randy White: Thank you all very much.

The Chair: Thank you.

Ms. Davies.

Ms. Libby Davies: Thank you.

Just to pick up more on the debate that's taking place, I would agree that education, as I think everyone has said, is really if not the top priority then one of the highest priorities in terms of dealing with the problems before us. To me, though, it's not just education; it's the message we're putting forward, and the kind of education.

As for the issues around the gateway drugs, it's such a loaded question, how you even put something. We know, for example, that all people who cause traffic fatalities drive cars. Probably the most dangerous thing we do every day is get in our automobile, and yet all people who drive cars don't cause fatalities, right? So it's a matter of how you present it. To me, education has to do with providing realistic information to people about the decisions we each make and how it affects us, our community, our health, our well-being, and so on.

So on this idea of sending out a message to kids, “If you smoke marijuana, you're going to become a cocaine addict”, kids just know that's not true. It can become very loaded. I think education that actually gives people choices... and it is about reducing harm. Even the idea of mixed messages on medical marijuana, say, has been raised, and how that can be harmful. In a lot of cancer treatments the drugs you use can be incredibly harmful. It depends on the circumstances. It depends on what that person is facing.

So it seems to me that we've had a very good discussion about education, but it also seems evident that we don't have, as a society, even an understanding amongst ourselves about what that message should be.

I think from the law enforcement point of view, probably you do have more connection across the country, certainly within the RCMP, but from the health side, in terms of considering in this report what Canada's role should be, do you even have a sense of connection to what other health providers who are dealing with substance abuse across the country are doing? Is everybody doing their own thing in different provinces?

Here in P.E.I. it looks as though you have some really excellent things. I'm very happy to hear that you have treatment on demand. It's something we've been trying to push for in B.C. but don't have. And it seems to me that's absolutely essential.

So in terms of not just education but also treatment programs, is there a need to have greater continuity or liaison or information sharing across the country, where you can see what the literature is saying, or you can look at what research is producing? I get the sense that it is very fragmented. We have all these different messages going out all over the place.

We have the RCMP here using the Odd Squad. I can tell you, from my community's point of view, most people don't like that video. They see it as something that's actually very negative. So that's another viewpoint that's out there.

The Chair: Ms. McIver.

Ms. Maureen McIver: We don't have a good handle on what's going on across the country. Health Canada, or I guess the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse, did put out a profile, but there hasn't been one come through for quite some time.

Ms. Libby Davies What was the profile they sent you?

Á (1100)

Ms. Maureen McIver: Just a list of the treatments available in each of the provinces—detox, outpatient counselling, rehab...

Ms. Libby Davies: Does it tell you what's working or what isn't or...

Ms. Maureen McIver: No, just a list of programs available, with no real description of what those programs entail. But I sit with my federal counterparts in Ottawa, and when I hear someone has a new program going, they're very good to share that.

In terms of education about drugs, I think you have to present the facts about drugs. The Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse has put out a great document, Straight Facts about Drugs and Drug Abuse. We love that here in P.E.I. In fact, we've had to get two big orders recently.

So it's something to that effect; the message has to be real. It has to be true. It also has to be put out at the media level, on television, etc. We see that working with tobacco.

I'm trying to think of your other questions.

Ms. Libby Davies: Actually, I think that's a very good point. I was going to make reference to that. When we look at these substance abuse issues, whether it's legal or not, how does the message change? To me, smoking is a very good example of an activity that is legal where, really through public education that's based on health, we've seen rates drop dramatically. Still, we know that for young girls it's actually increasing.

There's an example of where it's not law enforcement, it's not “Just say no”, it's not a prohibition type of thing; it's really a health message that now is actually having an impact.

Ms. Maureen McIver: Exactly, yes.

Ms. Libby Davies: We don't seem to do that on drugs, though. It seems that most of the education is focused more around this kind of good-bad, legal-illegal message, which I think is completely missing the boat for particularly kids.

The Chair: Mr. McKinnon, do you want to comment?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: I guess I would disagree on what we're giving kid in terms of some of the education out there. It's not all done as good-bad, legal-illegal in terms of what we do in the schools.

Ms. Libby Davies: Yes. I was just thinking of the DARE program.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: I also don't want it to come out of today, either, that we're saying in the schools that if you smoke marijuana you're going to automatically smoke cocaine. We're not telling them that, either. We're educating them that this certainly can be the case, or could be the case, but the majority of the time it would not be the case.

Ms. Libby Davies: And I think that's really important.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: We're not putting out the message that it's okay to smoke marijuana, either.

As Ms. McIver said, you have to give children and youth something that's true, something where they know you're not telling them a lie. I mean, they know. With all the stuff that's available on the Internet and other things today, they probably know more than we do. They probably know more than we do as far as up-to-date stuff.

Whether it's true or not, whether they're getting it from the Internet or not, doesn't really... They use it anyway.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Murray, did you want to comment?

Cpl Ken Murray: No, I'm sorry, I missed the question; I was out--

The Chair: You don't have to, that's okay.

Mr. Clark wanted to comment.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes, I just want to say that when we talk about addiction, we're talking about around 25% of the population who are causing most of the damage to themselves, to their families and to....

Pardon me?

Ms. Libby Davies: That high?

Mr. Wayne Clark: Between 20% and 25% is what we're talking about. Of course, if you look at the population of Canada, that's a substantial amount of people.

In my opinion, then, we need to be careful when we're talking to children that we give them the facts, and that the possibility is very real that it can lead to heavier drug use.

But it affects a lot of our legal institutions. They did a survey out at our provincial correctional centre two years ago, and 92% of their clientele had drug addiction problems. So it is very much a real burden on society, for sure.

Á (1105)

Ms. Libby Davies: But when you say 25%, I gather you're including probably alcohol, drugs--everything.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes.

Ms. Libby Davies: And then when we see those numbers dramatically increase, surely we have to factor in other circumstances.

For example, through the VIDUS study, we know that among injection drug users in Vancouver, one-third of the new conversions to HIV/AIDS are a result of deinstitutionalization, or people who have faced some sort of trauma. Surely we have to look at those other factors as well. If you're incarcerated and your life is hell or whatever, and drugs are available, yes, the rate suddenly will start to skyrocket. It's an indication of something else that's wrong.

This is the other problem I have. We never seem to talk about that other stuff. We focus on the addiction, but as I think Maureen talked about at the very beginning, these other social and economic factors are also at play for certain groups that are more at risk.

Would you agree with that?

Mr. Wayne Clark: There's no doubt that there are other factors involved, but we also need to remember that the addiction is a factor, too. Addiction isn't caused by some other factor. Addiction is a primary disease, and it also causes a lot of the other factors.

Ms. Libby Davies: But looking at what's leading someone to use that substance, and why they're using it, is a very important part of understanding the addiction, or dealing with it, for sure.

Mr. Wayne Clark: For sure.

The Chair: Thank you.

Just before I turn to Madame Allard, perhaps I can just ask a question about the 20% to 25% of people. Would that include people who have dealt with their addiction and are on an abstinence program? Would it include people who, for instance, are managing with just a glass of wine a day or something, and who may go through a period at some point in their life where addiction becomes more of a problem? Or does it only include people who have an acute, recognized addiction? Do you know?

Mr. Wayne Clark: From my understanding, it's people who have an addiction.

The Chair: Including people who are managing it.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes, quite likely.

Now, when you say they “once” had it, you can't “once” have it.

The Chair: No, I didn't mean--

Mr. Wayne Clark: If you had it, you have it.

The Chair: I guess I meant people who have already managed it--

Mr. Wayne Clark: They're not active.

The Chair: —yes—and people who have not yet recognized it. Right?

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes.

The Chair: It's somebody who may consistently use alcohol or Robaxacet or maybe sleeping pills on a regular basis and who hasn't recognized it's an addiction, or they think they're managing fine but they could go through a more acute or more obvious phase where they're actually seeking a detox. But that 20% to 25% includes all of those people, those who are perhaps healthy or--

Mr. Wayne Clark: Yes.

The Chair: Okay.

Ms. McIver.

Ms. Maureen McIver: We don't have a good database any longer. However, it used to be that 10% of the population had a problem with alcoholism. Then I saw a statistic that 7% of the population has another drug problem. In that case, they're separated out, but maybe some of those 7% also have the alcohol addiction.

The Chair: Oh, yes; concurrent.

Ms. Maureen McIver: So that 25% may cross all categories of addiction, but yet they may fall into any one of the addictions. That's probably why it seems so high.

I think it is kind of high, 25%.

The Chair I guess there's going to be some new research on gambling addiction and its relationship to substance abuse as well. Apparently the going-in prediction is that it's going to be fairly high, because it's that addictive personality.

Ms. Maureen McIver: Exactly. So if somebody were measuring the percentage of pathological gamblers, they may come up with 3%, but if they didn't ask them if they also had a problem with alcohol, they'd probably fall into that category as well. If you separate them out, though, you can see how they could add up to 25%.

The Chair: And do your treatment facilities deal with...

You mentioned double substances, Mr. Clark. Is that part of the treatment and rehab program here?

Mr. Wayne Clark: Cross-addiction, yes.

The Chair: Okay. Thank you.

Madame Allard.

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Madam President, do you intend to interrupt for a break?

The Chair: I think we're probably just going to go to you, to Mr. Sorenson, and then to me, and then we might break a little bit early.

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Okay.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Madam Chair, I'm supposed to be at another meeting at 11 o'clock.

The Chair: Okay.

Does anyone else have specific questions for Mr. Clark?

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: I have one.

[English]

The Chair: Go ahead.

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: What struck me today was that whenever there is talk of prevention, it is always in reference to youths. Aren't we forgetting that the baby-boomers of the 70s—peace and love—are still hooked on marijuana? I personally know a lot of people who smoke a joint every day. You would be surprised to hear that some of those people are even on national television. Their children see their parents smoke their joint every day and see for themselves that their parents lead a normal life.

What is the action plan for those people who are 45, 50, if not older, and who do not think they are addicted to drugs? I have heard you talk about total abstinence. It is difficult to convince young who see their parents smoke that their parents have a drug problem. Do you also target adult groups? What can be done to encourage those people to show the example to the younger generation? They won't stop smoking their joint.

[English]

The Chair: [Inaudible—Editor] ...national media.

Mr. Clark.

Á (1110)

Mr. Wayne Clark: Well, first, I guess you have to say that not everybody who drinks a glass of wine or a glass a beer or has a couple of beer on a daily basis are going to be addicted. Not everybody who takes a joint an a daily basis is necessarily going to be addicted. But we need to educate the parents, maybe, to become more responsible.

I hear advertisements in the media now talking about being responsible and how their drinking--I think it's directed mostly to drinking--is having a negative impact on their children. Maybe we need to expand that and build on it in the area of drugs other than alcohol.

The Chair: Just before I get anybody else to answer that, I have one quick question for you, Mr. Clark, and that is, are there long-term studies about the success of your program and the Lacey program? You can get that to us later if you do have anything.

Mr. Wayne Clark: I don't believe we actually have a tool to measure that as yet, although we're working on it.

The Chair: Okay.

Thank you very much for appearing. If there's anything you think of later that you might want to send to us, please, you're very welcome to do that after this hearing.

Mr. Wayne Clark: Thank you.

The Chair: And thank you very much for spending time with us this morning. I apologize to your next meeting.

[Translation]

Does anyone else want to answer Ms. Allard's question?

Á (1115)

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Is it possible to get enough evidence on the medical effects? Isn't that the problem? If there were clear messages on the medical effects, if we were able to tell people who smoke marijuana that it might cause motor function problems, for example, wouldn't that be more effective? But there isn't that type of medical proof. So we are trying to scare people by telling them that if they smoke marijuana, they will end up in prison and pay legal fines. It seems that legal punishment doesn't scare anyone anymore. As far as medical evidence is concerned, there are no statistics or studies that clearly show the effects of marijuana. Isn't that the problem right now? The threat of legal action no longer works. Do you agree with me?

[English]

The Chair: So now there are three questions. I'll recognize anybody who wants to answer any of those.

Ms. McIver.

Ms. Maureen McIver: I think there is fairly good evidence to suggest that there is harm, and that health problems are associated with cannabis use. Again, as Wayne said, not everybody who drinks alcohol is addicted and not everybody who smokes marijuana is addicted. But when you get into heavy use of these substances you're going to have consequences, and they're going to be health consequences.

A study I read on marijuana use said there is a nine times greater risk of getting cancer of the lung. There is impotence involved. There is infertility involved. There are consequences, not to mention the fact that brain cells are destroyed. Again, though, we're talking about heavy use.

Now, we do know there are medical consequences to marijuana, and I think they should be presented, but at the same time, there is also another issue here: they are not legal. How does a parent teach their child to not smoke marijuana, to not break the law, when they are doing it? So there's more than one issue here.

The Chair: You do the family counselling, so you, certainly on the first point, talk to parents and kids.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Yes, and the parents I deal with sometimes do say, well, at least it's only alcohol, or at least it's only marijuana. You hear that a lot. But when they stick to the alcohol, what they're talking about there is the legal side of it, and that's what they're looking at. There's a very clear distinction between alcohol and so-called drug use, whatever that drug is, because that distinction is the legality; that's what the parents are looking at.

I'll agree with what Mr. Clark and Ms. McIver said around the whole area of addiction in that not all people who drink are addicted, and not all people who smoke marijuana are addicted.

I'm not sure what else I can make a comment on.

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: But you are able to say that the parents you teach do not smoke marijuana. The ones who do not attend your courses.

[English]

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Well, I can't say whether they do or whether they don't. With the youth we deal with, we encourage parent involvement. As to whether or not those parents smoke marijuana on a daily basis, I have no idea, although for some I would. We've certainly noticed that it runs in families, and their parents may have had some involvement with us prior to that date. But for the most part, I have no idea whether the parents are users or not, unless those youth--

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Isn't that something worth knowing? Perhaps it is a question you should ask them.

[English]

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: To ask the parents or the youth?

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: The parents.

[English]

Mr. Kevin McKinnon Well, yes, but if they are users, are they going to tell you?

Á (1120)

The Chair: Corporal Murray.

Cpl Ken Murray: One of the prevention programs we have, with a brochure Two-Way Street: Parents, Kids and Drugs, deals with some of the aspects around what influences there are in their lives, whether it be media or role models. Certainly we stress in that presentation to parents that they are probably some of the most influential people in their kids' lives, and what they do or say... Their children look up to them. Using drugs and alcohol, or drinking and driving, sends a message to the young people. What Dad or Mom does has a big influence on them .

We make presentations to especially high school kids in different areas. When we come along and give the addiction side of it, we kind of interact with people then, and it's kind of interesting to see the public receptiveness to this information. When you go to a high school that has a thousand students in it, what you hear is, “We have a drug problem.” But when you set up a talk or presentation at night to the parents, you get ten parents out. And this is consistent. Or you get eight parents out, but the eight parents there are usually the parents you know and are very respected or very...

So it's frustrating, but those are some of the things we see when we're directing to the parents.

Another program we have, Drugs in the Workplace, is for people in the employed sector, but if you can give them that approach or give them the drug information at their work site, they take that information home. And they are also parents.

The Chair: I guess you meant the respected ones without known drug problems.

Madame Allard, do you have a quick follow-up?

[Translation]

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Ms. McIver, you are implying there are studies to show the harmful effects of marijuana, but little is said about them. You mentioned public education. Perhaps the studies on the effects of drugs should be highlighted. When you talk about education, do you think emphasis should be put on the relationship between drugs and their effects on one's health?

[English]

Ms. Maureen McIver: Yes, I think so. You have to put the truth out there. I don't know that people will not do something just because it's illegal. They need to know the whole story. Once they have the information, then you have to hope that people will make the choices that are good for them.

With any given drug, whether it's alcohol...although I have to say, cocaine is very addictive, as are some of the opiates. But lots of people drink, lots of people smoke marijuana, and they don't have an addiction. I think we have to acknowledge that.

However, if you overuse these substances, you're going to have consequences, and I think there is evidence out there to support that.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Sorenson.

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: Actually, in regard to your last statement, that if you overuse the substances you're going to have consequences, you can have consequences if you use these substances. The consequences are, quite truthfully, that you're going to be moved into a much higher risk category for going on--and we've talked about the gateway thing--and that you're going to be using other drugs, perhaps becoming addicted.

So I would say that we have different levels of addiction. Is the person using marijuana every day addicted? I think they probably are. There's certainly a high-risk factor there. Maybe they don't look like the woman in the Nicorette advertisement who's sitting between two people in the back seat of the car, and, when she sees someone smoking, breaks out in a cold sweat, but still, they're addicted.

I think we also have to recognize--and perhaps this sounds like an overdramatization of what it is--and understand who the enemy is here. Deep down, when we're talking drugs and especially the harder drugs, even including marijuana, we're talking about organized crime, aren't we? Organized criminals are the ones who are the suppliers of much of the illicit hard drugs. The fact is, we've seen our society, we've seen our country, and we've seen provinces become very liberalized in regard to our laws and priorities.

I absolutely agree that we need more education. Let me make it abundantly clear that, personally, the deterrence factor, knowing that it was illegal, knowing that I could get caught, knowing that somebody was going to be there, prevented me from getting involved in that to begin with.

I know other people who, even with tobacco, said, no, there are harmful effects--they do this, they do that--and chose not to. Well, I chose not to because I was afraid of getting caught by the police. I chose not to because it was illegal. It was against the law.

I think we have to recognize that there is a balance, and the balance of building law and the balance of the RCMP in law enforcement is to enforce the law that's there and make people recognize that there is a deterrent. Somebody else is going to take care of the far more liberalized end of the balance scale. Hopefully, combining all of our efforts we can reduce the harm, yes, reduce the supply, and prevent the drastic fallout that we see from families who are ruined.

I don't know, you sit at committee after committee like this, and you just kind of wonder, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Is it the society breakdown, the family breakdown, that leads to the stress that leads to the...? I think they just keep feeding each other. Sometimes it's the drug that causes the family breakdown. Sometimes it's the family breakdown and the whole structure that causes the drug dependency and everything else. Trying to find sanity and trying to find what a government should do is the challenge.

I really don't have a question unless there's a comment, but I do thank you for your roles.

Á (1125)

The Chair: He feels better now.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Kevin Sorenson: Yes.

I do thank you for your roles in this, and certainly I'm disappointed with our government, in some ways, that over the last 30 years we haven't had a more in-depth study on drugs. I'm disappointed that we've seen a reduction in the RCMP, of 2,200 personnel over the last 10 years, and the blame being shouldered by a lot of them.

At any rate, maybe there's a comment. I wouldn't want to force you to have to respond to such...

Ms. Maureen McIver: Point taken.

The Chair: Our RCMP representatives?

Then I have a couple of questions before everybody packs up.

Ms. McIver, how many times are there no beds for detox or rehab?

Ms. Maureen McIver: Detox is very unpredictable. At times the place can be filled and at times it can be half-empty. But looking at the occupancy rate of those 25 beds over the last year, it was about 60%.

The Chair: Again, sometimes there are some and other times...

Ms. Maureen McIver: That's right. That's detox.

The Chair But the most important thing we've heard from people who are trying to get clean is that the bed has to be available when they are ready for it. That may mean that you have one bed that's used only 10% of the time, but it has to be there for that 10%.

Do you ever have times when people are turned away?

Á (1130)

Ms. Maureen McIver: I don't think there are too many times when there's not a bed available for those who need detox.

The Chair: Do you take in people from different provinces?

Ms. Maureen McIver: Not as a rule, but I guess there is the odd person who comes.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Do you mean who isn't resident, who might just be visiting here?

The Chair: Yes. Or would you be asked by Moncton to take somebody because they don't have any beds?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: No, that doesn't happen. Or I don't believe it happens.

Maureen, does it?

Ms. Maureen McIver: I think it has happened on occasion. Now, I'm not on-site there, but I've heard the managers say they've had out-of-province requests. It's only the odd time; it's not something that's frequent.

But for detox in P.E.I. you're not talking a wait period for that.

The Chair: What about rehab?

Ms. Maureen McIver: Those are closed programs. If they start on one day they have the same group for three weeks, say, and no one else comes in. However, five regions have outpatient rehabs going, so if there isn't one available at the provincial centre at the time a client is ready, they have the option to go to Montague or Summerside. It's their choice. But those who need the outpatient program very often want to wait until--

The Chair: There's a local spot available.

Ms. Maureen McIver: Yes.

The Chair: And how many of the rehab beds are for kids?

Ms. Maureen McIver: They're not rehab beds, they're stabilization beds.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: They're not rehab, they're detox.

Ms. Maureen McIver: Yes.

The Chair: Okay. Do you have any rehab for children?

Ms. Maureen McIver: No.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Outpatient.

The Chair: Just outpatient?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: There's no in-patient.

The Chair: And that's as young as what?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Oh, 13 or 14.

The Chair: Do you have a need sometimes for more children's spaces?

Ms. Maureen McIver: We have sent kids out of province to the Halifax CHOICES program, and also there's the Portage in Moncton, New Brunswick.

The Chair: Oh, there's a Portage in Moncton?

Ms. Maureen McIver: No, not in Moncton; Sussex, or Cassidy Lake, actually.

The Chair: I only know of the one north of Montreal and in Elora. Great program.

Ms. Maureen McIver: But not a lot of kids go out of province.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: You would average probably two to three per year.

Ms. Maureen McIver: We try to treat kids on an outpatient basis with family involved. That's the best way to go about it.

The Chair: Mr. McKinnon, what do kids tell you about why are they using drugs or substances?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Starting out, they say, the peer pressure thing is still there, but it seems to me there's a little bit of a switch; it's more peer pressure they're putting on themselves as opposed to peer pressure from my buddy or whatever the case may be.

The Chair: Meaning--as with sex--“Everybody's doing it so I think I should”?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: That's part of it. It's also to fit into a certain group. You know, this group over here may be using, and that's part of how you get into that group.

The Chair: I mean, you hear from so many kids, “Oh, everybody's lost their virginity, so I need to do it”, and yet it's just not true. If they only realized that they don't have to buy the line that everybody else is doing it.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: That's a good point. A lot of the youth we deal with will say that everybody's using, but that's just not the case. The majority of youth on the island are not using, they're just not.

The Chair: But of the ones who do, do they tell you it's peer pressure, or is it the perception that everybody else is?

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: The old reliance is fun; they're still saying that. They use it to have fun.

The Chair: One of the things we heard out west, for instance, was that kids were saying they need it to escape. And that's really sad.

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Yes, that's part of it, but only those who are willing to take a look at it, I find. Those you run into who may be referred by, say, the guidance counsellor or probation, and who have no inkling as to why they're using, will say fun, or because they're bored. I'm not saying those aren't valid reasons, but the youth don't have the insight to see that it is an escape for them.

The Chair: Are you hooked up with the local young offender system as well, then, and with the police force?

Á (1135)

Mr. Kevin McKinnon: Yes, we work quite closely with the RCMP. Most of our referrals, obviously, come from probations. That's where we get most of our referrals from outside the school system, outside the work we do with the schools. Most of the referrals we get at the provincial facilities, for instance, come from probations.

The Chair: Okay.

Staff Sergeant Gibbons, you said that you would like to have more RCMP officers or resources. You have 100 officers. There are police officers in Summerside, Charlottetown, Borden, and where else?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: There's Souris, Montague, Charlottetown, Summerside, and Alberton.

The Chair: For 158,000 people, that sounds like a lot of police officers. What's going on?

Voices: Oh, oh!

The Chair: Is it that you think with the presence of more police officers, you'd deter people like Mr. Sorenson--just kidding--who think there's more of a chance of getting caught, or is it that you think there is more illegal activity that you haven't had a chance to get to?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: I believe it would be the latter. You have to put it in perspective; we may have 100 members of the RCMP in this province, but only a very small number of people--actually, 10 people--are dedicated to drug enforcement.

The Chair: Are those 10 people on drug enforcement 100% of the time?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: Yes, but I'll have to clarify that of those 10, three are on secondment from municipal departments.

The Chair: So that's 103 as opposed to 100, then.

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: Well, yes, but as far as actual RCMP members... and the figure of 100 is only a guesstimate, as well.

The Chair: What percentage of other RCMP officers would be on enforcement, and what percentage of other RCMP officers' time would be on demand reduction, on education programs, like Mr. Murray?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: One.

The Chair: One is Mr. Murray is education?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: Yes.

The Chair: And of the other 90 RCMP officers, none of them are dealing with enforcement issues?

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: Oh, yes, they'll deal with drug enforcement as they come across it on routine highway patrol or in regular investigations.

Drug enforcement here in Prince Edward Island fits in with the whole national scheme of our mandate. We're mainly concerned with drug organizations or criminal organizations and their drug activities. It's how we plug in right across the country.

There is a certain amount of street level enforcement that our unit does, just out of an obligation to the city police departments. They're on more of a respond/demand-type thing. Although we're very concerned about the national issue, if someone lives on a street with a crack house next door, to them it's probably the most visible form of a drug problem, and that has to be responded to as well.

The Chair: So the local police forces would turn that kind of thing over to you versus....

For instance, in my area my local police officers would deal with the crack house, but when it gets a little more complicated as to who's been supplying, and a bigger investigation is needed--in the region, for instance, or in coordination with Toronto or whatever--then it might become an RCMP investigation, because they have more resources, or different resources.

S/Sgt Rick Gibbons: In a simplified form, yes.

It's the same with our uniformed personnel. They will apprehend someone in possession of drugs. They'll process them and take them through the court system. If information arises out of their investigation that this person may be part of a larger organization, or if it's province-wide or regional or national in scope, then we'll probably take a look at it.

The Chair: All right.

Does someone else want to comment?

Corporal Murray? My clerk is suggesting that you wanted to say something.

Cpl Ken Murray: No, just the fact that I'm the only one in the drug prevention. I fall under the drug enforcement group, but I'm solely into the prevention.

The Chair: So you're 100% prevention.

You're focusing more on our younger citizens rather than the mid-year ones, on elementary schools rather than high schools?

Cpl Ken Murray: The core program we have now, which is DARE, does target the younger age groups, but we do have programs to the other students as well.

The Chair: Okay. That was the information we heard, that DARE and police officer interaction tends to work with the younger students and builds good relationships, but the older ones are a little more jaded sometimes, and it might not be as effective to have police officers deliver the information. It may be better for Mr. McKinnon's group to do so, for instance.

That comes from some of the anecdotal evidence we heard from across the country.

Cpl Ken Murray: I think that what they've shown is that DARE is good with the younger groups, but you also have to have that reinforcement in the other grades. There's still room for police interaction in both elementary and high schools. I think it's very important. These are things from the student advisory groups. When they meet with their commanding officer and their crime prevention officer, these are things the students bring up--for instance, they'd like to see the police in the schools more, whether for visitation or just to make ourselves available. So they do want us there.

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The Chair: Does anyone else have any other questions?

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: I have one.

I want to know if the committee has seen these programs he is talking about, DARE and Two-Way Street. Are we aware of the contents of these?

The Chair: Yes.

Ms. Carole-Marie Allard: Thank you.

The Chair: To all of our witnesses, including Mr. Clark, thank you very much for taking the time to come and share your experiences and your ideas with us. Lots of us have been asking provocative questions, and sometimes that's a way to tease out the information. That's important, too.

We are in the middle of this study. As Mr. White indicated, we have a report deadline of November 2002. We are probably going to continue to hear testimony and receive information through to the end of June. So if something comes up, I encourage you to send something to us. If you have citizens who want to participate--for instance, Mr. McKinnon, if you have kids who want to participate--we would very much like to hear from them on their ideas about what can be done differently or better. They don't have to have PhDs or anything, they can just tell us their ideas. Or if the parents have ideas; we really are encouraging more people to participate in this process.

To all of you, thank you very much on behalf of all the citizens of Canada for the work you do in our community, in our broader community. Keep up the good work. We appreciate your enthusiasm and your dedication.

Thank you very much, and we hope you have a good day.

I adjourn this meeting.