SSPD Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON THE STATUS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT AND THE STATUS OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES

SOUS-COMITÉ SUR LA CONDITION DES PERSONNES HANDICAPÉES DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DES RESSOURCES HUMAINES ET DE LA CONDITION DES PERSONNES HANDICAPÉES

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Thursday, May 27, 1999

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[English]

The Chair (Ms. Carolyn Bennett (St. Paul's, Lib.)): I now call the meeting to order.

We welcome the Honourable Ethel Blondin-Andrew, Secretary of State for Children and Youth, as well as Susan Scotti, Deborah Tunis, Mary Glen, and Deborah Price.

As you know, Minister, a long series of ministers have come before this committee, and we're always happy when we meet with secretaries of state, because they obviously know the problem with silos in government, and particularly the jurisdictional barriers facing persons with disabilities. As you know yourself, there are no more jurisdictional battles than in the issue of aboriginals with disabilities. So we are pleased to have you.

Hon. Ethel Blondin-Andrew (Secretary of State, Children and Youth, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to first of all say that I want to get through my speaking notes quickly so that the members have the benefit of the time to ask questions and make comments.

Let me start by thanking you for focusing on the needs of children and youth with disabilities—the most vulnerable and often invisible members of the disability community. Part of my role as Secretary of State for Children and Youth is to be an advocate for their concerns and ensure their voice is heard in the development of federal policy. It is a role I take very much to heart.

[Translation]

It is a role that I take very much to heart, I can assure you. My cabinet colleagues and I know how important it is to pay particular attention to this issue so that these young people get a good start and are able to go on and lead productive, rewarding lives.

[English]

As a society, we have yet to fully realize this ideal. In part, this reflects the fact that we do not know enough about the challenges these young people face or the most appropriate responses to their needs. Others appearing before this committee have pointed out gaps in our knowledge. We do not have all the data we need. The prevalence of children and youth living with disabilities that encounter barriers is certainly cause for national concern. That is why the Government of Canada is working in close partnership with other governments, the disability community, aboriginal communities, and health professionals to identify and implement policies and programs that will yield better results and collect the data that we need.

Today I will briefly highlight some of the activities Human Resources Development Canada and other federal departments are engaged in to assist young Canadians with disabilities and their families.

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I am especially proud of HRDC's contributions through our youth employment strategy, through YES programs such as Youth Internship Canada, Youth Service Canada, summer career placements, and Youth International. We are working to help youth with disabilities gain access to employment opportunities.

Youth with disabilities are a priority at HRDC. Targets have been set at the regional level for each of these programs to ensure the increased participation of youth with disabilities in our program. To meet these targets, we work with representatives of government, business, and disability organizations to match youth and students with disabilities with learning and work opportunities. Under our summer career placements, we also provide up to $3,000 per student for special accommodation needs as well as wage subsidies to employers. These programs also encourage the sharing of best practices in the private sector and build broader networks to further integrate young people with disabilities into the workplace and the community.

One of our youth internship projects in Manitoba, for example, gives youth with disabilities a chance to gain computer skills and work experience. Another project in High River, Alberta, provides instruction and counselling to youth with disabilities so they can successfully own and operate their own businesses. Working with the local business community, the young people receive follow-up assistance as their careers advance and their businesses grow.

I am equally proud of measures to remove obstacles to employment for young people with disabilities within the public service. As you may be aware, the cash contribution the Government of Canada received with the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Award was donated to the National Educational Association of Disabled Students. They have since set up a mentorship program with the private sector to assist students with disabilities in their career objectives. Subsequently, my colleague, the Honourable Pierre Pettigrew, made a firm commitment that HRDC will work with the Public Service Commission to identify and hire more post-secondary students with disabilities within our department.

Reforms to the Canada student loans program were also made with young people with disabilities in mind. The February 1998 budget increased the Canada study grant for students with disabilities by $2,000, which went from $3,000 to $5,000 per year, to help students cover exceptional costs related to permanent disabilities. These funds make it possible for students to hire tutors and interpreters or purchase special equipment to support their studies.

Although Health Canada administers most of the government's programs for children, I also want to point to HRDC initiatives that address the needs of children with disabilities. Child Care Visions, as one example, is designed to address gaps in our knowledge about caring for children with disabilities. This program supports projects that are national in scope and study the adequacy, outcomes and cost-effectiveness of child care practices and service delivery models. One of these areas pertains to disability and inclusion.

For example, the special link project in Nova Scotia is investigating caregivers' attitudes and experiences toward children with special needs in child care programs.

The Roeher Institute in Ontario is another group studying the labour market integration of parents caring for children with disabilities, as well as parents on social assistance caring for children with disabilities and seeking labour force participation.

I spoke with countless families across Canada's north and other Canadian communities during a series of town hall meetings as part of my consultations on the national children's agenda last fall. The Government of Canada has worked with provincial and territorial governments and national aboriginal organizations to develop the national children's agenda. We want an inclusive vision that focuses society's efforts on improving child well-being.

In the agenda it is recognized that children with special needs face barriers that limit their opportunities. We recognize, however, that concerns have been raised about the extent to which children with disabilities are reflected in the agenda. We have launched a public dialogue to help refine the vision and potential policy directions for the agenda. We encourage members of both the subcommittee and the disability community to participate in order to ensure that the needs of children with disabilities are reflected.

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One of the greatest concerns—families living in poverty—is the focus of the national child benefit, which provides income support to low-income families with children through the Canada child tax benefit. The national child benefit supplement was created in July 1998 to top up basic income support for children in low-income families. Some $1.7 billion per year will be spent on the NCB supplement by July 2000. We are hopeful that the NCB will continue to grow beyond the $1.7 billion and that together with the provinces we can look at additional reinvestment possibilities, including those related to children with disabilities.

In addition, we are now examining other alternatives for providing increased assistance to parents of children with disabilities. Many of these options include the tax system, and work will be done jointly with the Department of Finance.

Many families I met also told me how important the four federal tax credits are in helping to alleviate the costs associated with caring for children with disabilities. The disability tax credit, the medical expense tax credit, the refundable medical expense tax credit, and the child care expense deduction are helping them to cover the costs of their children's special needs.

I think all families raising children and youth with disabilities should be encouraged that there will be even greater sensitivity to their needs as a result of the policy framework recently developed by the federal-provincial-territorial ministers responsible for social services. Of particular interest to families, In Unison: A Canadian Approach to Disability Issues focuses on the importance of portability so that people with disabilities, including children and youth, have continued access to supports from home to school to work.

I am also very concerned about meeting the needs of aboriginal families, who are far more likely than other Canadians to have family members with disabilities. The rate of disabilities among aboriginal people is nearly double the national average. For those aged 15 to 34, the rate is three times higher. The Government of Canada is fully committed to addressing this very serious problem. I am proud that I could play a part in the creation of the aboriginal reference group on disability issues and was able to support the development of the group's report, One Voice, which offers recommendations for action.

In addition, I understand that the Assembly of First Nations' paper on disability issues, entitled The First Perspective, has helped provide direction on next steps.

Some of the actions required, particularly in the area of health, are already under way. I believe the health minister highlighted these initiatives during his appearance before this committee, but I'll touch briefly on a few.

Many teen mothers are at risk of birth defects for their babies, whether fetal alcohol syndrome or other disabling conditions, because they are not aware of the links between their diet and their behaviour. The last budget dedicated $75 million to extending the Canada prenatal nutrition program, a program that helps 20,000 women at the moment and will increase to 35,000 as a result of the increase, to reduce the incidence of avoidable disabilities.

The community action program for children, a partnership with provinces and communities, and the aboriginal head start program are also providing support for mothers and young children.

Special emphasis is being placed as well on reducing diabetes, another disease that claims three times as many victims among aboriginal people as other members of the population. The aboriginal diabetes initiative, part of the Canadian diabetes prevention and control initiative, will help to control the growth of this often preventable but frequently disabling disease in aboriginal communities.

Finally, the interim expert advisory committee on the centres of excellence has several members with a strong background in disabilities, as pointed by my colleague Allan Rock, the Minister of Health, before this committee.

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In conclusion, there remains a lot of work to be done. We must make more progress in meeting the demands of children and youth with disabilities and their families. The challenges we face, however, go beyond the mandate of any one department or, for that matter, of any one level of government. The joint ministerial policy framework In Unison highlighted the need for greater coordination among governments and non-governmental organizations. Clearly, it will take all of us to respond to this national challenge.

The Government of Canada is in the process of constructing a federal and national disability strategy. This federal disability strategy will create a continuum of hope and meaningful opportunities for families of children with disabilities. It will build on the significant steps already taken by this government and its many partners to address this national priority.

[Translation]

Ultimately, all Canadians will have to work together to further our common goal and to make progress in meeting the needs of children and youths with disabilities. You can count on me to do my part, because I believe it is critically important that this goal be met.

Thank you very much.

[English]

I'm looking forward to hearing the views and comments and questions from the members.

[Translation]

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you. Deborah.

[English]

Miss Deborah Grey (Edmonton North, Ref.): Thank you.

Thank you, Ethel and the others, for coming this afternoon.

Could I ask you, Ethel, what does Secretary of State mean to you?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Secretary of State?

Miss Deborah Grey: What does it mean in sort of regular language that I might understand?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Boy, you shouldn't have asked me that question, Deborah.

Secretary of State... Well, I see myself in the capacity of assisting the department and the minister in the work that is being undertaken by the government.

Miss Deborah Grey: Okay. It has always puzzled me.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: I think you would probably get very good clarification either from the Prime Minister's Office or from Mr. Pelletier on that, or the Privy Council Office.

Miss Deborah Grey: I know it's one of these traditional phrases, but—

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: I would like to know what it means to you.

Miss Deborah Grey: Maybe my question was that I always thought the Secretary of State, rather than just being under one minister, also had the opportunity to deal with your issue in lots of other ministries. Do you feel that you're able to do that?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: I've undertaken certain... For instance, I take a particular interest in children and youth initiatives. Fetal alcohol syndrome, for one, is an issue I feel very strongly about. It's a preventable disability. As a former teacher yourself, I'm sure you have a particular interest in that.

I have also undertaken a three-year extensive negotiation process to come up with the training package for aboriginal people across Canada. I've worked on the youth employment strategy and the Canada jobs fund. There are numerous others. It's a very big department. It's a huge job.

Miss Deborah Grey: “State” just seems like a funny word to me for someone in a parliamentary system.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: You might have some ideas you would share with us on that.

Miss Deborah Grey: Yes, maybe.

You talked about fetal alcohol syndrome. Yes, in my capacity as a teacher I was certainly concerned about that. I was a foster parent as well and had many kids who suffered seriously from fetal alcohol syndrome.

You say on page 4: “The last Budget dedicated $75 million to extend the Canada Prenatal Nutrition Program...”. It's great to talk about nutrition, but if you are addicted to alcohol, I'm not sure a little educational program or some fruit or good food is going to solve that problem. We know that all too painfully. So aside from just saying nutrition is a great way to go and we're spending $75 million on it, the question is how do we get people to stop drinking while they're pregnant. That has to be the bottom line, and it is preventable.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Actually, that's interesting. The Canada prenatal nutrition program, if you're familiar with it, and the CAPC program are geared to such things as providing advice and mentoring for young women, particularly, who are with child, and also young people who are parents and are probably going to have more children, if they're not currently pregnant or with child.

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These people are provided that kind of advice, and better parenting is also part of that. In the process, along with the various projects that come under this funding, they very much become aware about responsible parenting, and a healthier lifestyle for themselves, which includes any kinds of abuses to substances, not just alcohol, because usually you find that if there is one addiction, there are others. You could be a poly-user of drugs. You could use multiple other drugs, soft drugs and hard drugs included.

On that note, the government is very intent on looking at the whole issue of substance abuse, and we are currently working on a strategy to deal with drug addiction. It's a major concern, not just for Health Canada, because as Secretary of State, I do work for Health Canada, as well as HRDC. We're working along with other agencies such as the Solicitor General and Corrections Canada on the strategy.

Miss Deborah Grey: You've seen this big expensive package that a lot of the health groups have just put out about cigarette smoking. That came through your office. It's a powerful piece. Obviously you're concerned about that too, because we're talking about addictions. Cigarette smoking might just as well come into that as well. What would you be recommending to government about this amazing powerful packaging of cigarettes?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Do you mean the one that was put out by Gar Mahood and his organization?

Miss Deborah Grey: There were 26 groups.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: The government has its own plan. There are many suggestions that we received.

I must tell you that tobacco reduction is one of the major issues that I have as the Secretary of State for Children and Youth, with some very strongly held views. I have attended a number of seminars as well as having dealt with the issue at a number of conferences and with youth groups. I can tell you in particular, because it's so endemic to the aboriginal population... Let me give you a few statistics.

In the north we have eight times the national average of respiratory ailments. We have five times the national average of lung cancer. The youth population is seized with and overrun with the issue of the increasing number of young people who are taking up smoking—and women as well. In particular, of some interest to the members from Quebec, the statistics are very much higher for Quebec in terms of tobacco intake and consumption. It's very high. So certain populations, especially the aboriginal population, are very hard hit by this very addictive substance.

Miss Deborah Grey: I know. So what could we together do about it?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: What are we doing? As it stands right now, the government spends $100 million a year on tobacco reduction. There's never enough money. I'm not sure what the construct of the committee is, but there is a committee on tobacco and that committee is putting forth its recommendations.

Madam Chair, when is it putting its report forward to the minister?

The Chair: I think it will be June 9.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: So there is a great deal of thought being put into that. Not only are we looking inwardly in terms of resources, in terms of innovative ideas such as packaging and everything else, but we're also looking at some success models in other parts of the world. We're looking at what countries like Australia are doing. The United States has some really successful projects, like in Florida. I think California has projects as well that are well worth looking at. So we're examining every possibility.

Miss Deborah Grey: To the officials who are at the table—welcome to you—were any of you involved in putting together the national children's agenda?

Ms. Deborah Tunis (Director, Social Policy Development, Strategic Policy, Department of Human Resources Development): I worked on the national children's agenda until last June, when I moved over to disability issues. I was involved with the early stages of it, but not the most recent.

Miss Deborah Grey: It's funny that they would be mutually exclusive, if you work on the national children's agenda and then you come and work for the Secretary of State for youth and disabilities.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Actually, I don't think they work for me; they work with me. I like to think—

Miss Deborah Grey: For whom do you work, then?

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If you're talking about the national children's agenda, and yet you're talking so deeply—and we all know that—about children with disabilities... Maybe nobody was at the table. Should someone have been at the table? We have this huge agenda that's going forward to talk about kids, and yet you talk about so many young people, kids, aboriginals, with disabilities and somehow it's...

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Actually, I do believe that if the officials would... We had a discussion this morning on the NCA. I was at the launch of the NCA, I believe with Premier Romanow as well as Minister Pettigrew, in Saskatoon. To be honest with you, Deborah, there were a number of preliminary discussions before this all happened. The provinces and the federal government had discussions. The provinces came forward with their list of priorities, and I think the officials will discuss with you something I found quite remarkable.

Miss Deborah Grey: Good.

Ms. Deborah Tunis: In terms of how the national children's agenda was developed, a federal-provincial-territorial framework has been developed that is a broad inclusive vision for children. Then the intention is that there will be this series of round tables and consultations taking place over the coming months that will allow priorities to be identified for where future action should take place. So the national children's agenda did recognize that there are particular groups of children that have special needs, and that those should be addressed as—

The Chair: It's not in the document at all. I think our concern as a committee was that in the big glitzy launch that we saw, there was not one word about kids with disabilities in the whole agenda.

Miss Deborah Grey: Didn't that whole document come out of round tables after round tables?

Ms. Deborah Tunis: There were three round tables, one in Vancouver, one in Halifax, and another one. But those were largely to shape the document at very early stages. The notion was that governments decided that they would have this broad inclusive agenda and then develop specific priorities out of the consultations that are to take place now, which will be more open than the expert groups that informed the shaping of the initial national children's agenda document.

Miss Deborah Grey: I'm sure you're familiar with A.A. Milne, who said “Round about and round about and round about we go.” More round tables. I think that's probably what this committee feels so painfully about.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Deborah, I've listened to your leader often talk about how there's regional alienation, and that perhaps some of the undertakings of government are best left to the provinces, and that we should in fact devolve and decentralize. Having heard the “round and round about”, I think it's a necessary state of our nation right now. We have undertaken to build that relationship that your leader so fondly speaks of, in building to ensure that the regions are partners, and equal partners. We don't avoid doing that on issues that affect the family or children through the national children's agenda, or the social union framework, or the councils of ministers that we deal with. These are important negotiations.

Two of the things originally listed by the council of ministers, I believe it was, the first ministers, that came forward from the provinces was the issue of child poverty and the issue of persons with disabilities. That was a priority. Now, it seems quite simple that that would be so, and it's quite proper, but in the whole state of negotiations I think it's an evolving thing. I think when you make a commitment to the issue of disability or child poverty or homelessness, it can't be a hollow commitment. It can't just be a motherhood statement. Along with that comes the price tag, and I think therein lies the huge and complicated process, if you know what I'm saying. It's a whole set of negotiations by which you come to some kind of agreement.

The government, I think, is given to providing a number of other venues to deal with the issue of disabilities, not just one venue. I think if you look at Child Care Visions, there's also a number of opportunities there for people with disabilities: labour market integration of parents caring for children with disabilities is one of them; caregivers' attitudes and experiences regarding inclusion of children with special needs in child care programs is another one.

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There are things that are shared between the provinces and the federal government. We tend not to be in the whole area of providing the service even though we might provide the resource, because that, as you can well appreciate, is best left to the provinces and the territories.

Miss Deborah Grey: Granted. I appreciate your comment as well. I have listened to my leader many times talk about the importance of that. What we have always stressed, though, is that a lot of those discussions go on before the photo op, before the big show, before the national children's agenda is there. We're celebrating it and children's disabilities aren't even mentioned.

There's a whole lot of preliminary stuff and roundabout on that, yes, but when something's really going to happen, you don't make these grandiose announcements and then say, oh, shucks, we still have a long way to go.

So I think we're talking about many of the same things, but something's going to happen at the tail end of it, after so much of that work is done, rather than beforehand, and maybe you have the cart before the horse.

Thanks.

The Chair: Susan Scotti.

Ms. Susan Scotti (Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources Investment Branch, Department of Human Resources Development): Might I suggest that you think about the national children's agenda as a framework document that sets out some broad directions. It's a document that's meant to be inclusive, inclusive of all Canadians, all Canadian children. Certainly, then, it is very much concerned with children with disabilities.

The specific actions that are going to be attached to this children's agenda will be the product of these further round tables that, as it's been indicated, will be happening and will be, through a collaborative process, developing the appropriate action plans to include the issue of children with disabilities.

The Chair: I think from our point of view, to pick up the document and not have the word mentioned once, whether you're the Canadian Association for Community Living or all of these people who deal with this every day, it doesn't feel inclusive if people don't understand that actual special needs will be given the special consideration that's supposed to be paramount.

Do you have a quick question before you go, Wendy?

Ms. Wendy Lill (Dartmouth, NDP): Oh, I have questions, but they wouldn't be quick. I'd miss my plane, and we don't want that.

Miss Deborah Grey: I could have traded with her.

The Chair: Sorry.

Ms. Wendy Lill: No, it's okay. It's fine.

Thank you for coming. I'll read the transcript. I'm sure all of the questions I had to ask will be asked by others.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Wendy, you've just submitted a list of 40 or so questions to the minister—

Miss Deborah Grey: It's a start.

Voices: Oh, oh.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: —and we're very sensitive to that. We appreciate them. They're being dealt with.

Ms. Wendy Lill: Excellent. If I think of another 40 on the plane, I'll send them.

Miss Deborah Grey: Just don't talk to your neighbour.

Voices: Oh, oh.

[Translation]

The Chair: Ms. Dalphond-Guiral.

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral (Laval Centre, BQ): Thank you for coming this afternoon. In your opening remarks, you mentioned a number of Youth Employment Strategy programs, notably Summer Career Placements. I'm surprised to learn that one of the program components targets youths with disabilities.

My riding of Laval Centre receives approximately 50 per cent of the total budget earmarked for Laval, and at no time was I aware of this. This must be a well-kept secret.

Is my assessment of the situation on the mark? You also stated that under Summer Career Placements, you provide up to $3,000 per student for special accommodation needs. Is this over and above the budgeted amount, or does this actually come out of the budget?

In my view, the budgets for these programs should be increased, not cut, as is the case.

[English]

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: In cases where an employer hires a participant with a disability in terms of a summer career placement, then the employer is eligible to receive a contribution of up to 100% of the applicable provincial or territorial adult minimum wage. In addition, funds may be made available for job accommodation requirements up to a maximum of $3,000 per student.

Now, what you want to know is whether that's part of the total summer career placement budget.

[Translation]

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: That's correct.

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[English]

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Or do you want to know if it's a top-up?

[Translation]

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: That's correct. If this amount is included, I think that's very unfortunate because in my view, funding to promote hiring should be additional money. This makes no sense. The disabled community has always maintained that while people always make promises and have good intentions, concrete action is rarely taken. If you tell me that money has in fact been set aside, but that these funds are deducted from the total budget that I receive for my riding of Laval Centre, then I think we have a problem.

I'd like you to clear up something else for me. You stated that you were very proud of measures taken to remove obstacles to employment for young people with disabilities within the public service. Could you give me some examples of these obstacles? Preparing questionnaires in braille is a noble initiative, but it's still a modest one.

[English]

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: First of all, the first question is whether the disability provision under the summer career placement is a top-up. It's not. It's part of the overall budget that's allocated to your region. And you are right. Sometimes—

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: I'm sure I'm right.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: —the funding that is allocated for certain uses or purposes is not necessarily actualized. That's something that is a bit of a challenge for the region as well as the centre. I shouldn't use the word “enforcement”, but encouragement and continual guidance are needed there. We need to constantly remind people that target groups have to be served, that we have to have gender balance, that we have to deal with the disabled, and that we have an issue with the high unemployment of aboriginal people and systemic discrimination.

Those are all things that are challenges for us. In this case it's the disabled, but there are others as well. We have to be vigilant about ensuring the money that's intended for particular target groups reaches them. That is the challenge, not just for us but for the regional groups as well. Sometimes there are competing priorities. And to be honest with you, there's never enough money. But we've been successful in having the summer employment funding as well as the overall youth strategy permanently embedded into the budgetary process. That's quite a feat in that we were not guaranteed funding before the year ended and we now have the opportunity to have these funds on a permanent basis, with, of course, continual review and a renewal process each year.

The second question that you asked was... Sorry.

[Translation]

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: You said you were satisfied that a number of obstacles had been eliminated to facilitate employment for young persons with disabilities within the public service. I'd like you to give me some examples of obstacles that have been eliminated.

One example is job application forms in braille. That's all well and good, but...

[English]

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: I don't think it's in reference to any specific obstacle. As I referred to the... I used to work with the Public Service Commission as one of the target group national managers, and initially there was deemed to be an element of systemic discrimination, meaning that the system was not designed to look at people with special needs or people with unusual demographic circumstances. Over a number of years, not just overnight or by going to a particular program and eliminating this barrier... It's a long, drawn-out process that has a whole, how would you say, not a culture, but certainly an awareness of its own that has expanded. The awareness has increased over the years and has allowed more and more... There have even, for instance, been targets set that we have to meet with regard to women, aboriginals, or the disabled community within the public service. And there is an abidance to that.

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Did we just remove one or two obstacles? Accessibility in the workplace is the big one, to make sure that people have the proper tools if they have an auditory or a mobility disability, so that they're properly served. You cannot expect a person who has a mobility problem or an agility problem to do what other people who don't have a disability do to do the same job. We have to look at those particular needs. So those are things that have been dealt with.

Also, there are particular other needs. There's the fact that there are higher costs for them to be mobile, for example, for transportation. There are a lot of things that have to be considered when you're talking about taking disabled people who are not in the mainstream and integrating them into the workforce. So there are numerous factors that have to be considered. It isn't just one thing.

I think, because of my background in the public service and because I was one of the people who was responsible for trying to meet those targets as a national manager, I'm very acutely aware that we have made progress. There are regulated bodies that are celebrated every year for the work they do with the disabled people and other target groups in terms of equity.

We're making some progress, but it's still very difficult.

[Translation]

Ms. Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral: Yes, because we talk a great deal about performance indicators. You referred to obstacles that have either been eliminated or minimized. Do you have some idea of the improvements that have been made on the employment front within the public service for persons with disabilities over the past ten years? Do you have any statistics that would indicate that the rate of employment for persons in this category has increased? I'm not expecting any major changes, but are any figures available?

[English]

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Madam, unfortunately we didn't come prepared to deal with the demographics of employment or labour market issues as such. But we can get that information. The Public Service Commission puts out quarterly and annual reports every year, and those are very well demonstrated. You can get them for as far back as they go.

The Chair: Actually, Minister, next week Minister Massé is coming, and I believe Treasury Board does have those numbers. So he's now on due notice that this may well be Madam's question.

I guess following from that, where I think the public service does have, and try to meet, targets... Our concern in terms of youth employment and with some of the labour market agreements that have been negotiated with the provinces is that those targets weren't necessarily there, and that it has been possible for provinces to cherry-pick in order to meet certain employment targets by not making special provisions to try to get the harder-to-employ people employed. So is there is something, maybe in youth employment or something, that you could tell us about that will make things look better?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: I'm just trying to find the sheet on the aboriginal one, because that's the one I'm most familiar with. I want to give you an example.

I'll be honest, I was anticipating this question on labour market development. It is our hope, as was relevant to the question by Miss Grey, that we would get that kind of partnership that would speak to reinvestment in children with special needs and disabilities. We want that kind of partnership and relationship, that shared responsibility with the provinces. That's what we're working toward.

It is not an easy task. It's difficult. It's fraught with a lot of debate and competing priorities. You know there are some provinces, for instance, that have undertaken initiatives in fetal alcohol syndrome. There are parts of the country that do nothing. This is our debate.

In terms of human resources development strategy, in particular with aboriginals, I can tell you we have a $1.6 billion investment program, for instance. Under the youth employment strategy there are also a number of things that are included. Within these initiatives that we undertake on behalf of aboriginal people, there are targets set for the number of aboriginal youth with disabilities to receive various interventions. Those are not done with the provinces; they're done with the various aboriginal organizations. They have a responsibility to meet those targets, to deal with their people, and to create awareness about that, as well as providing an element of encouragement and enforcement, I suppose.

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We also have a first nations and Inuit child care program, which provides $36 million annually to ongoing operational support to child care facilities. We also established this HRDC aboriginal reference group on disability issues because of the high incidence of disabilities. So in this particular area I'm very satisfied. We're encouraging that kind of a relationship.

And in terms of reinvestment, you are right, there is cherry-picking, and we're encouraging that there be a higher degree of reinvestment in terms of children with special needs, particularly in regard to some of the issues we talked about related to fetal alcohol syndrome and other such special needs.

The Chair: One of the things in the new tools of government theme that we certainly heard at our round table is that a lot of those are inputs. What outcomes are we seeing for the money you're investing? Are we decreasing fetal alcohol syndrome? What actually can we show for the money we're putting out in these really important areas?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: To be honest with you, in terms of things like FAE/FAS, we are just starting the process. We're looking at a number of aspects. We've done a literature search and we've put together all of the information we have on FAE/FAS and we're also looking at best practices. In your ridings as well there is some outstanding work that is being undertaken by constituents who have dedicated themselves and their life's work to this issue. So we're putting a best practices together with Health Canada. We're also looking at other things that cannot be announced until a later date, unfortunately, but we are definitely working on this. We want to create awareness, and I think we've done that over the last couple of years.

Those of you who are in the medical profession or have background in education, and also in Corrections Canada or Solicitor General, RCMP, and the court systems, are well aware of the implications for FAE/FAS in these particular areas. So we're working on it. When we have more information, when we're at a point where we will release that, we will be very happy to share it—I'm sure the minister will—with the committee.

Miss Deborah Grey: For how many years have federal dollars being going into these FAS studies, knowing about smoking? Haven't we been talking about it for a very long time?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: That's why we're not necessarily—Deborah, I know where you're leading to—looking at doing more research. What we're doing is putting it together and we're also looking at across the country. We've increased the money for the prenatal nutrition program. We're dedicating resources and a portion of that is going to FAE/FAS to better help those communities that are on the ground actively engaged. We're not serving the industry; we're trying to serve the public.

Miss Deborah Grey: I wasn't leading to more and more money for research. What I'm leading to is who is sitting around the tables when they're doing budgeting and saying okay, we'll put more money into it? How would they know if they need more money unless the thing is not working? Surely someone has been keeping numbers on it. If I were going and saying I need another $100 million or whatever, I'd be pretty darn sure I had the statistics at my fingertips to say that this sucker is not working and we need more help.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: In June 1992 the parliamentary standing committee on health and welfare, social services and the status of women released the report entitled Fetal Alcohol Syndrome: A Preventable Tragedy. Since that time Health Canada has been involved in a range of collaborative and intersectoral initiatives designed to prevent the occurrence of FAE/FAS. And it's not just one, because one of the things we really want to know, and the reason we did the literature study, is to really get a grip on what is out there, what's working well and what has moderate success and those that need new directions.

Miss Deborah Grey: This is 1999. That was seven years ago. How do we know what's happened in the interim, rather than just starting to put it together now?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: It's not as if nothing has been happening on this. There's been ongoing... We wanted to develop a work plan, and we're working toward that. I'm not in a situation to make those announcements, but there are tangibles that will be had in the future.

The Chair: That would be great. I look forward to that.

Mrs. Longfield.

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Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.): The CAPC program has been a wonderful program, and we have some pretty incredible programs in my community, but recently I've had a number of agencies and groups talking to me about funding and they have been told that there is no funding left. Is this a program that has ceased? Is it ongoing? I wonder if you can give me some more information on CAPC. I know it's a health program, but we refer to it here and say that it's doing such a good job. And one of the groups that recently has come to me is a program that's working with children with AIDS. I think it's a group that deserves that kind of funding, and they don't seem to have any other place to go.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: This is a case, Judi, of where as much money as we put into this, an early intervention program, there is never enough money. I'll tell you, there are hundreds and hundreds of CAPC projects across Canada that are literally restoring the health of children as well as families and communities. It's remarkable. I've been to some of them, and many of them are in your communities.

There is funding for CAPC, but it may be that the allocation for that particular region has been expended. I can get you that information. We were not prepared to do a Health Canada specific—

Mrs. Judi Longfield: I can appreciate that, but if you... I think it's one that certainly deals with children with disabilities, children at risk.

That brings me to another question. Recently at the subcommittee on children at risk there was a great deal of concern that in the national longitudinal survey of children and youth there was very little detail on children and youth with disabilities. I'm wondering, the next time we get that kind of a report, that kind of a longitudinal study, will there be any information on children with disabilities?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Actually, we need more comprehensive information. We suffer in this particular area from a lack of data, and our goal is to continue to gather as much information as we can. I know you can count the heads of the people who are disabled, but you also have to classify the actual disability and the needs and the costs and everything related to that, and the kind of educational environment they have to operate in as well as their other special needs.

In aaddition, we have Statistics Canada, which has undertaken some work. We had the longitudinal survey, but we're also looking at Statistics Canada to work within existing funding parameters to improve the disability supplements and existing surveys. There have been surveys undertaken, and we want to improve the data we're collecting with Statistics Canada.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: The range of disabilities is so extensive, and it's very difficult to pinpoint a target and to determine how we're going to.... particularly with children. And if we don't deal with it when they're young, then the problems just magnify. By the time they're young adults they're probably beyond our help.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: I have Deborah Price here, who works with the reference group.

Deborah, do you want to talk about the aboriginal people's survey and some of the other initiatives?

Ms. Deborah Price (Special Adviser, Aboriginal and HRDC Relations, Secretary of State, Children and Youth, Department of Human Resources Development): I was going to mention the fact that although I don't work specifically for the research group, I have input into certain studies from an aboriginal standpoint. I work in the aboriginal relations office, and at a meeting we just attended there was quite a bit of discussion actually on doing that. I believe they were working on what they were referring to as filter questions, which were to do exactly what you were talking about. And the Statistics Canada people were reporting that they had just accomplished the setting out of filter questions that would enable a much larger section on disabilities.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: I think that really needs to be done.

We were talking about the NCA discussion documents, and I appreciate probably more than most, having spent some time in the provincial field, how important it is to not cross jurisdictional boundaries and to give provincial and regional organizations the opportunity to put their agenda forward. But at some point we're a national government, and where we see obvious holes I think it's incumbent upon us to step in and say, irrespective of the fact that the provinces all got together and determined what were priorities, when we see something that's so obviously missing...

• 1630

I keep going back to the fact that here we have a national children's agenda, the discussion papers, and there's no mention of disabilities. I can appreciate that if it didn't come up at the round tables, it wouldn't appear, but from a federal point of view, if it doesn't come up at the local or regional level, how are we going to make certain this is front and centre on this agenda? You can't just hope it's going to happen, because it doesn't always.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Are you saying to get direction from the centre to the regions?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: At some point. Even under social union discussions, we have carved out some areas where, when we see a need, and it's a national need, we have the ability to step in. Is this one of those areas?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Wherever we have been jurisdictionally unencumbered, we have very much promoted the idea of including... For example, under the tax system, we made those four tax provisions under research where we looked at child care visions. There's an integration underneath there. With the aboriginal human resource development strategy, we've set targets and there is dedicated funding. We also have... Sorry; I lost my train of thought. I was on a roll there.

We encourage this committee, as well as the disability community, to participate in those ongoing discussions and dialogues that are going to be formulating the substance of what's in the NCA in the end. You have a document that lays out the framework, but in the end, the substance will be had from the ongoing dialogue and discussions. We encourage this subcommittee, as well as the disabled community, to participate in that, to make sure your views are registered.

To be honest with you, there have been cuts in certain provinces, such as Ontario, that affect disabled children—in the reorganization of school boards, for instance. They are devastating.

Mrs. Judi Longfield: I'm aware of that, and that's what bothers me as well, because while I appreciate the jurisdictional problems, I also, as a federal parliamentarian, feel absolutely committed to ensuring that whether the province takes it on or not...

In the case of Ontario, where there have been severe cuts, particularly in education, where special needs children are very much behind the eight ball, there has to be a way, from a federal perspective, that we can step in and say at some point these are children who are at risk. These are children who are going to fall under our jurisdiction at some point, because we're going to be picking them up someplace along the line.

Early intervention and prevention are the way to go. So whether you can do it or whether it's going to be each and every one of us needling away at provincial jurisdictions, it has to be begun.

I'm going to leave that and say just one last thing. A number of people with disabilities have said that when you look at regular programs, regular department funding, there doesn't seem to be anything carved out for the disability community. Is there a way we can ensure that in department budgets, dollars are set aside for the disabled?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Actually it's interesting that you would say that, because the total expenditure for persons with disabilities is $7 billion. However—

Mrs. Judi Longfield: We see it in each individual ministry though. How do we...

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: How do you integrate that?

Mrs. Judi Longfield: When you're looking for programs and you're looking for help, how do you access it?

The Chair: Say in the children and youth programs, do you have a percentage of your budget that would be dealing with children with disabilities?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: We don't have necessarily a percentage, I believe, but in particular...

I can only speak from my own department's perspective. We have done our level best to integrate them into all the initiatives. We've integrated them into the aboriginal human resource development strategy, which is what I'm charged with the responsibility for, and also the youth employment strategies in terms of my own children and youth mandate. I can speak to those.

We're acutely aware and hear your comments loud and clear about this. It's something I will discuss with Minister Pettigrew and the good people who work on disabilities. We hear you, and we're sensitive to that.

• 1635

On the issue of how you integrate and continue to have reinvestment, you know, we have the same problem with the Canada student loans. We have a few more levers than we had before. We used to do the transfer, because we have a tax point system and we have a transfer system. Some provinces are higher in tax points and lower in the transfer payments, like Saskatchewan and Ontario. Ontario and Quebec are high in tax points and low in transfer payments. But I'll tell you, we were never guaranteed that the money we gave for Canada student loans was going to be spent on Canada student loans and not gazebos and highways. So in this case, when we did the CHST, we did this whole model of reinvestment. We at least have the opportunity to look at that. We didn't have that before, so we're building on that.

I think you're right, we need to push harder. I think that's a difficult job that the federal-provincial relations office has.

The Chair: Say an aboriginal head start—obviously we're interested in the evaluation of these sorts of programs. Would you be able to tell us in aboriginal head start how many children with disabilities are looked after? In terms of the disability lens that we keep talking about in this committee, how do we make sure that... In evaluating a program like aboriginal head start, is there also an evaluation screen for children with special needs or with disabilities?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: You've raised a very good point. I work with the head start group, and I'm encouraging a discussion at the next conference of the aboriginal human resource development, with 64 regional bilateral holders, on how they are going to meet those targets. We want to put that on their agenda, because we have the leadership capacity to suggest those things.

I would as well suggest a discussion on how head start meets the needs of children with disabilities. It's a very good program, and it tries to accommodate other issues as well, such as culture and linguistic and special economic needs, that sort of thing, and also whether they're dealing with children at risk who come from sole-parenting and that sort of thing. So we can have a discussion on that as well. It's a good point.

The Chair: Okay. I guess the only other one was at our round tables on May 6, the aboriginal community, with their One Voice document... Is there a special amount of money or resources to deal with some of the issues that were raised in One Voice in terms of just aboriginals with disabilities?

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Actually, in terms of One Voice, I think that was integrated into In Unison. We started up the reference group because we saw that there was a need, that the incidence of disability in aboriginal communities was so disproportionate. So we sent up a reference group to work on this, and Deborah worked with that particular group. The aboriginal relations office worked with them. They developed a report and it was integrated into In Unison.

I believe the government is hearing and recognizing. Did we dedicate a specific amount of money? Well, there is some funding that's allocated for that, but we're still working to look at other pots of money in existing programs that can be used when we use our disability lens to deal with the special needs of those people with disabilities.

The Chair: I guess my problem is that as the chair of that day, as the aboriginal community asks why you didn't provide One Voice to the people who came, it didn't seem like they thought they were incorporated into In Unison properly. I guess that was my concern.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: I'm not trying to micro-manage programs and projects and services. I think I'd better let Deborah take that question, because she worked closely with that group to develop that report.

Ms. Deborah Price: Thank you. On the One Voice, I understand what you're speaking about, the specific complaint, that there was not a set amount of money given to them. But there were a few things that were recommended in there. As part of One Voice, a lot of it's centred on issues of jurisdiction and mobility and the issues between the federal government and provinces.

• 1640

At HRDC we have, as the secretary mentioned, an aboriginal reference group on disability issues. They were the ones who worked to do that. At their meetings they have decided to try to bring in those other departments. It also then brings in the Department of Indian Affairs, who have jurisdiction on reserve, and Health Canada. It's actually a very involved thing to be a first nations person living on reserve with a disability. They're working very hard to bring all of those departments together to the reference group meetings.

They've also decided, as one of the recommendations that was in One Voice, to make a secretariat that would do exactly that, that would have the ability to deal between the different departments.

The Chair: It would be a secretariat of aboriginals with disabilities?

Ms. Deborah Price: That's correct, of their committee.

The Chair: Okay.

Ms. Deborah Price: At this point in time there is no national organization that is specific to aboriginal people with disabilities. The only thing that exists or is close to it is the reference group.

The Chair: Okay.

Ms. Deborah Price: They've also established a connecting clearing house specifically for aboriginal people, where they can access information on what is available and how to work through that maze of jurisdictions. So they have the reference group, the clearing house, and then they will have a secretariat that will attempt to work more interdepartmentally with those other people.

The Chair: Thank you all for coming.

The two separate subcommittees of HRDC find that there is lots of overlap. Next week, at the end of the children-at-risk meeting, at five o'clock on Tuesday, we're going to have a joint meeting, which I think the committee will find out about shortly. There are some international visitors from the U.S. coming to talk to us about the sixth international congress on children with disabilities in the community. I guess I would hope we will hear from the American experts on this, and then there will be a reception in the parliamentary restaurant at six o'clock. We would welcome any of you to come.

I think the overlap between children at risk and persons with disabilities is... Obviously the issue of aboriginals is that these silos... I think we as a committee feel very strongly that we are going to try to break it down so that just doesn't happen any more. I think we felt badly in receiving the national children's agenda that it wasn't there. I know you will take that message back for us.

Thank you.

Ms. Ethel Blondin-Andrew: Thank you very much.

The Chair: We will suspend for a minute.

[Editor's Note: Proceedings continue in camera]