OGGO Committee Meeting

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Meeting No. 37

Wednesday, May 7, 2003

The Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates met at 3:40 p.m. this day, in Room 308, West Block, the Chair, Reg Alcock, presiding.

Members of the Committee present: Reg Alcock, Paul Forseth, Judy Sgro, Paul Szabo and Tony Tirabassi.

Acting Members present: Dick Proctor for Pat Martin, Benoît Sauvageau for Robert Lanctôt, Jim Peterson for Tony Valeri, Mauril Bélanger for Steve Mahoney, André Harvey for Roy Cullen.

In attendance: From the Library of Parliament: Jack Stilborn, Analyst

Witnesses: From the Human Resources Modernization Task Force: Ranald A. Quail, Deputy Minister and Head; Monique Boudrias, Assistant Deputy Minister and Senior Advisor; Yvette Aloisi, Director General, Institutional Reform, Memorandum to the Cabinet Development; Michel LeFrançois, General Counsel; Lois Pearce, Director General, Policy.

Pursuant to its Order of Reference of Thursday, February 20, 2003, the Committee resumed consideration of Bill C-25, An Act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts (See Minutes of Proceedings, Thursday, February 27, 2003, Meeting No. 12).

The Committee resumed consideration of Clause 2.

Michel LeFrançois answered questions.

By unanimous consent, Paul Forseth moved -- That the French version of the amendment motion moved by Paul Forseth on May 1, 2003, and agreed to at the meeting held on the same day, be substituted by the following version:

Que le projet de loi C-25, à l’article 2, soit modifié par substitution à la ligne 24, page 8 de ce qui suit :

« travail qui touchent les fonctionnaires. Ces questions peuvent notamment porter sur :

a) le harcèlement en milieu de travail;

b)      la communication de renseignements sur les actes fautifs commis au sein de la fonction publique et la protection des fonctionnaires contre les représailles lorsqu’ils communiquent ces renseignements ».

After debate, the question was put on the amendment and it was agreed to by a show of hands: YEAS 8, NAYS: 1.

Dick Proctor moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by deleting lines 5 to 19 on page 44.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 1; NAYS: 7.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing line 36 on page 40 with the following:

“Service”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 3.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by adding after line 38 on page 40 the following:

“113.1 A collective agreement may, directly or indirectly, alter, eliminate or establish, among other things, staffing mechanisms, pay and classification structures and any acquired rights that are subject to collective bargaining.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 6.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 6 to 13 on page 42 with the following:

“120. The employer, the bargaining agent and the employees in the bargaining unit must continue to provide services, operate facilities and produce goods to the extent necessary to ensure public health and safety.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hand: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 4.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by deleting lines 23 to 37 on page 42.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 5.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by deleting lines 37 to 42 on page 43.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 4

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by deleting lines 31 to 36 on page 45.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 4.

Dick Proctor moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by deleting lines 1 to 15 on page 46.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 5.

Tony Tirabassi moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing line 42 on page 51 with the following:

40(1)(a), (d), (e) and (h) to (j).

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was agreed to by a show of hands: YEAS: 7; NAYS: 0.

Dick Proctor moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended

(a) by replacing, in the English version, line 28 on page 52 with the following:

“cupations in the public service; and”

(b) by replacing lines 34 to 37 on page 52 with the following:

“nature of the services rendered.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 3.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 35 to 37 on page 52 with the following:

“(e) the Government of Canada's financial situation.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 4.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended

(a) by replacing, in the English version, line 20 on page 53 with the following:

“of employees; or”

(b) by replacing lines 25 to 29 on page 53 with the following:

“misconduct.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 4.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 17 to 19 on page 57 with the following:

“person must represent employees, management and the public, report directly to Parliament, publish all reports and act on those reports.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 4.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing line 17 on page 57 with the following:

“person must recommend to the Minister that an independent”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 4.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 26 to 33 on page 57 with the following:

“(3) The Chairperson shall not represent employees, management and the public, report to Parliament, publish the reports and act on those reports if the Chairperson considers, after consultation with each of the parties, that such measures are unlikely to assist them in reaching agreement, in which case the Chairperson must, without delay, notify the parties in writing of his or her decision.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 5.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by adding after line 38 on page 60 the following:

“172.1 (1) The public interest commission has the power to

(a) determine the facts;

(b) refer the parties back to the negotiation table;

(c) offer mediation services;

(d) issue a preliminary report commenting on the reasonableness of the parties' positions;

(e) issue a report outlining the terms of a settlement that could be adopted by or imposed on the parties;
and

(f) impose a collective agreement at the request of a union under specified circumstances.

(2) The public interest commission shall consist of at least nine part-time members and a full-time Chairperson, all to be appointed by the Governor in Council. It shall have an equal number of union and management representatives, at least three of each, and the remaining members shall be neutral third parties.

(3) The public interest commission shall report directly to Parliament.”

RULING BY THE CHAIR

“Mr. Sauvageau, I have to inform you that BQ-49 in its current form is inadmissible. It's unfortunate, but it does propose to increase the membership for public interest commissions. That brings it into conflict with the royal recommendation that is attached to this bill that determines the level of expenditure, and committees are not allowed to rule in those areas. So I would suggest that we simply not proceed with this.

(...)

According to page 655 of Marleau and Monpetit:

A amendment must not offend the financial initiative of the Crown. An amendment is therefore inadmissible if it imposes a charge on the public treasury, or if it extends the objects of purposes, or relaxes the conditions and qualifications as expressed in the royal recommendation.

    So it is the ruling--.”

Whereupon, Mauril Bélanger appealed the decision of the Chair.

The question: “Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?” was put and the decision was overturned by a show of hands YEAS:0 ; NAYS: 1.

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 6.

Tony Tirabassi moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing line 11 on page 61 with the following:

paragraphs 40(1)(a), (d), (e) and (h) to (j).

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was adopted by a show of hands: YEAS: 4; NAYS: 0.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 1 to 7 on page 65 with the following:

“183. (1) The Minister shall give the employees in a bargaining unit the opportunity to accept or reject the offer of the employer last received by the bargaining agent in respect of all matters remaining in dispute between the parties, and the Minister may”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 1; NAYS: 4.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 36 to 38 on page 66 with the following:

“ployees by an employee organization;

(b) discriminate against an employee organization; or

(c) refuse to withhold membership dues from an employee's pay.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 3; NAYS: 4.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by replacing lines 31 to 35 on page 68 with the following:

“(5) The employer or a person commits an unfair labour practice under paragraph (1)(a) or (b) by reason only that the employer or person expresses their point of view, even though they do not use coercion,”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 5.

Benoît Sauvageau moved, -- That Bill C-25, in Clause 2, be amended by adding after line 26 on page 70 the following:

“189.2 A joint committee shall be established to give bargaining agents, regardless of their affiliation, the right to participate in all phases of trade union consultations or labour-management consultations.”

After debate, the question was put on the amendment, it was negatived by a show of hands: YEAS: 2; NAYS: 5.

At 5:29 p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.

Marc-Olivier Girard

Committee Clerk