C-17 Committee Meeting
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37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION
Legislative Committee on Bill C-17
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Tuesday, November 26, 2002
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The Chair (Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh, Lib.)) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Steve Mahoney |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ) |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance) |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Claude Bachand |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Claude Bachand |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Lynn Myers |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Lynn Myers |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Lynn Myers |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Ms. Aileen Carroll |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Andy Savoy (Tobique—Mactaquac, Lib.) |
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The Chair |
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Mrs. Bev Desjarlais |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Sarkis Assadourian |
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Mr. Steve Mahoney |
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The Chair |
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Mr. Vic Toews |
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The Chair |
CANADA
Legislative Committee on Bill C-17 |
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EVIDENCE
Tuesday, November 26, 2002
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¹ 
(1540)
[Translation]
The Chair (Mr. Bob Kilger (Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh, Lib.)): We shall begin this first meeting of the Legislative Committee on Bill C-17. I would first like to share with you a letter which was sent to me as vice-chair and chair of the committees of the whole of the House of Commons:
| Pursuant to standing order 113, I am pleased to confirm your appointment as Chairman of the Legislative Committee on Bill C-17, An Act to amend certain acts of Canada, and to enact measures for implementing the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention in order to enhance public safety, |
| Yours truly-- |
And it is signed by the Speaker, the Honourable Peter Milliken.
[English]
This is a letter I received under the signature of the Honourable Peter Milliken, Speaker of the House of Commons, addressed to me as Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees of the Whole:
| Dear Mr. Kilger: Pursuant to Standing Order 113, I am pleased to confirm your appointment as Chairman of the Legislative Committee on Bill C-17, An Act to amend certain Acts of Canada, and to enact measures for implementing the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, in order to enhance public safety. Yours truly, Peter Milliken, M.P. |
That will save you the trouble and all of us the exercise of a secret ballot vote.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear!
The Chair: Now, I believe you should all have received copies of the agenda for today. I particularly want to share with you some suggestions we have put together for you, motions the committee might want to put into practice for our deliberations.
So if I might, I'll begin with the first, with regard to the subcommittee on agenda and procedure: that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure be composed of the chair, one Liberal Party member, one Canadian Alliance member, one Bloc Quebecois member, one New Democratic Party member, and one Progressive Conservative Party member.
Would that be your wish?
[Translation]
It is moved by Mr. Lee and seconded by Mr. Bachand. Mr. Lee is not a member either, so we are going to go with Mr. Mahoney.
(Motion agreed to )
The Chair: The second motion concerns research officers. It is moved that the committee retain the services of one or more research officers from the Library of Parliament, as needed, to assist the committee in its work, at the discretion of the Chair.
It is moved by Mr. Myers and seconded by Ms. Desjarlais.
(Motion agreed to)
[English]
The Chair: We'll move to the quorum for receiving evidence: that the chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive and publish evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that at least three or four members are present, including one member of the opposition.
I just want to remind you that at any time with regard to quorum, the chair is not included. Is it three or four?
Some hon. members: Three.
(Motion agreed to—See Minutes of Proceedings)
The Chair: Item number four is the time for opening remarks and questioning of witnesses: that witnesses be given ten minutes for their opening statement, and that during the questioning of witnesses five minutes be allocated to each questioner, alternating between opposition and government parties, at the discretion of the chair.
Discussion? Mr. Bachand.
[Translation]
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): I don't know if my colleagues would agree with this. Often, in several committees, the first opportunity to speak is given to the opposition and then we alternate. I see some skeptical faces on the other side, but you will understand that as an opposition member, I have the right to ask my colleagues for their opinion.
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Mahoney.
Mr. Steve Mahoney (Mississauga West, Lib.): I don't know what committee my honourable colleague is referring to, but in my experience here it goes opposition, government, opposition, government, then a couple of oppositions, and then back to government.
The only question is whether or not the opening round is 5 minutes or 10 minutes, followed by consecutive rounds of 5 minutes. My experience has been that 10 minutes for the opposition and 10 minutes for the government to open the round is not unusual or unfair, and that gives a reasonable time period. Five minutes disappears pretty quickly when you're asking questions, and a lot of the time the answers can take up the majority of that time. Maybe by way of compromising, in order to allow the opposition to have ample time--and in fairness the majority on the committee to have ample time--we could go 10 and 10 and then to a round of alternating fives.
The Chair: For additional information, and for the chair to be clear, would that mean in the first round each opposition party would get 10 minutes, alternating with government members, or would it be simply the official opposition? I just want to be clear.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: I meant the official opposition.
The Chair: The official opposition; then that's clear.
Is there any further discussion? Monsieur Laframboise.
[Translation]
Mr. Mario Laframboise (Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, BQ): I don't agree with that. I could accept that we give the same amount of time to each of the speakers, as we alternate; that does not bother me. If it is 5, 5, let's go with that; if it is 10, 10, it will be 10, 10.
[English]
The Chair: D'accord.
Ms. Desjarlais.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais (Churchill, NDP): No, I'm actually in agreement with the recommendation on the paper.
The Chair: Okay.
Mr. Toews.
Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, Canadian Alliance): I know that in the justice committee, if I'm not incorrect, it goes down the opposition lines, then it goes to the opposite side, to the government. Then it--
The Chair: It would seem there's a variety. Let's set our own parameters and our own guidelines, then.
Ms. Desjarlais.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I move the recommendation as it is on the sheet.
The Chair: Does that include the five minutes?
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: Yes. It's as it is.
The Chair: It has been moved by Ms. Desjarlais, seconded by Mr. Mahoney.
(Motion agreed to)
Ms. Desjarlais.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I don't know if I'm able to do this at this point, Mr. Chair, but if everybody else has read through, I'm quite willing to recommend that the remainder of items listed are fine unless there's—
The Chair: We're moving along rather quickly, so if I may, let me just take it item by item, and I think it'll be clearer in all our minds.
Monsieur Bachand.
[Translation]
Mr. Claude Bachand: I am a bit surprised that the opposition members do not agree with the suggestion that we give the first questions to the opposition. I simply want to remind you that since I have been here, since 1993... First, our colleagues spoke about the Justice and Human Rights Committee, but there is also the Foreign Affairs and International Trade Committee which functions in the following way: opposition members each have five minutes at first, and then we alternate.
I simply want to remind you, Mr. Chairman—this is something you must know—that in committees we try to favour the opposition somewhat, because the government has the majority everywhere in the house. But in committees, it is a tradition to try and give the opposition a bit more time. So I am a little surprised to see that opposition members do not agree that opposition parties should be given the floor first, followed by the others.
¹ (1545)
The Chair: With your permission, as chair, first, I would say that the issue has been settled, and—
Mr. Claude Bachand: It was passed?
The Chair: Yes. Someone has already moved the motion and it was seconded, so the matter has been settled.
The chair will always try to meet your expectations, those of the opposition as well as those of the government members.
[English]
The motion on witness expenses is that, if requested, reasonable travel, accommodation, and living expenses be reimbursed to witnesses, not exceeding two representatives per organization.
It has been moved by Mr. Toews, seconded by Monsieur Savoy. Is it agreed?
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The Chair: Working meals: that when instructed by the chair, the clerk of the committee be authorized to make the necessary arrangement to provide for working meals for the committee.
It is moved by Mr. Laframboise, seconded by Ms. Neville.
(Motion agreed to)
[English]
The Chair: The motion for notice of new business is that, unless there is unanimous consent, 48 hours' notice be given to the members of the committee before any new item of business be considered by the committee.
It is moved by Mr. Toews, seconded by Mr. Assadourian.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: The motion on attendance is that each committee member be allowed to have a staff person present during in camera meetings unless the committee decides otherwise.
It is moved by Mr. Myers, seconded by Ms. Desjarlais.
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The Chair: Transcripts: that in camera meetings be transcribed, and that the transcriptions be kept by the clerk of the committee.
It is moved by Mr. Bachand and seconded by Mr. Assadourian.
(Motion agreed to)
[English]
The Chair: On distributions, the motion is that the clerk of the committee be authorized to distribute documents to the members of the committee only when they exist in both official languages.
It is moved by Mr. Myers, seconded by Monsieur Laframboise.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian (Brampton Centre, Lib.): Excuse me, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Mr. Assadourian.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: On number ten, sometimes in other committees--foreign affairs, for example--we don't have time to translate. We leave that to the discretion of the chair to go with either French or English. That should be allowed also, I think, here.
The Chair: As your chairperson I've already gone through these, and I feel most comfortable with the text before you. I'm pleased that you agree.
The mover was Mr. Myers, seconded by Monsieur Bachand.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: On amendments, the motion is that amendments to the bill be submitted to the clerk of the committee 48 hours prior to clause-by-clause consideration.
It is moved by Mr. Toews, seconded by Mr. Mahoney.
(Motion agreed to)
The Chair: We'll move to other business.
Ms. Desjarlais.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I have a question as to the time of the meetings. I understand that when the committee was struck and when the agenda came out for committee meetings, special committees were to meet in the evenings so they wouldn't interfere with other committee times. I notice that this meeting is not happening in the evening, so I just want to verify the timeframe the meetings will be held in.
The Chair: I don't have a hard and fast rule. Are we tied to evening sessions?
Some hon. members: No.
The Chair:We are not tied to evening sessions. Is it the wish of the committee to only have evening sessions?
Ms. Desjarlais.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: It does create a problem, it being at the same time as other committee meetings. The transport committee distinctly moved its time today because it was told it had to adhere to that committee schedule. So people have set their timeframes around when their committee will be in place. If it's held at this time, then it's going to interfere with another committee that I have to attend, so I do have a problem with it not adhering to the committee schedule.
The Chair: Without prejudice to anyone, I can appreciate that. For smaller parties, of course, it becomes even more challenging. But again, I can only put the question in your hands as to what the wish of the committee is for meeting times. Did you wish daytimes?
[Translation]
Do you want to meet during the day, insofar as possible?
[English]
As much as possible.
Ms. Desjarlais.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I will voice a strong concern, then, that other committees are being told they have to adhere to the schedule and individual members' schedules were based on that. It's not that it will make a difference, but I do object.
The Chair: Your objection has been duly noted, and I don't take any offence or any joy in not being able to meet all of your expectations. I know that your time is a very precious commodity and all of you have more than your hands full while you're here in Ottawa.
On that matter, is there a wish, first of all, to meet again this week? Or are we going to select a few witnesses to target a first meeting next week?
Some hon. members: Next week.
The Chair: Next week. La prochaine. Would the Tuesday of next week be suitable at this time?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: The next meeting will be scheduled for next Tuesday, December 3, at 3:30 p.m., the room number to be announced.
I caution you, with regard to the membership, if there are any changes, please make sure through your whip offices that the clerk is notified so that the notices go to the correct person in each party. Substitutions occur, of course, but must be formalized with the proper written notice from your respective whips.
Is there any other new business? You have a question, Ms. Carroll.
¹ (1550)
Ms. Aileen Carroll (Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, Lib.): Mr. Chair, when do you anticipate putting together a list of witnesses?
The Chair: I think we might have that discussion briefly, time permitting to members. We could at least begin to formulate such a list, if it is the wish of the committee.
Mr. Toews.
Mr. Vic Toews: Indeed, that was my question also. Ms. Ablonczy has presented me with a witness list for inclusions. Unfortunately, I only have two copies. If I could leave one copy with the chair, perhaps it could serve as part of this discussion.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Myers.
Mr. Lynn Myers (Waterloo—Wellington, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, we do have a steering committee, do we not? I think you indicated that was a group of the subcommittee.
The Chair: That's correct.
Mr. Myers: I would be content to have that subcommittee, between now and next Tuesday, of course, under your guidance and the clerk's involvement as well, strike a list of witnesses. I think that's most appropriate.
The Chair: Would that be agreeable to the committee?
Ms. Desjarlais first.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I see no reason, if there are names available right now, why we wouldn't submit them so we can start making sure that happens before the next meeting.
The Chair: Would there be a consensus, if not unanimous agreement, as to who the first witness or witnesses might be next week? I'll give this list back to Mr. Toews. Maybe he wants to share some of those names with the committee. It's not in any particular order.
Mr. Vic Toews: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Ablonczy has divided some of the witness list inclusions under separate headings. First of all, under “Health and Emergency Preparedness”, there's Dr. Sheela Basrur, the medical officer of health for Toronto; Denis Desautels; and Dr. Terence Taylor. I'm just naming some of them.
Then there's another list of witnesses under “Safety and Security”, including Dr. Robert Huebert, associate director of the Centre for Military and Strategy Studies; and Justice René Marin.
Then there are the headings, “Asylum Seekers and Security”, “Senate Findings on Safety and Security”, and “North American Coordination”. So there's a number of headings. Under “Information Gathering and Dissemination”, there's Sheila Fraser, for example.
There are some names I recognize and some I don't recognize. I would feel more comfortable if Ms. Ablonczy made these representations. I have not focused on actual names. But certainly the divisions she has proposed and the types of issues we need to address seem to be outlined in this particular document. I don't think there's any problem sharing the contents of this. If there's some agreement among members, we can move on some of those.
The Chair: Ms. Desjarlais.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I would submit the name of the privacy commissioner, as well as Clayton Ruby as a representative of civil liberties groups.
The Chair: Mr. Myers.
Mr. Lynn Myers: These are all good names. Certainly a number that Mr. Toews and Ms. Desjarlais read off resonate with me. But I come back to the point that the steering committee has to look at these. But before we do next Tuesday, it seems to me we should have departmental officials come in--
¹ (1555)
The Chair: That was going to be my suggestion.
Mr. Lynn Myers: --and/or ministers from the various departments.
The Chair: The minister or ministers could possibly be the basis for our first meeting. Would that be agreeable to the committee?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
The Chair: Which ministers?
Mr. Lynn Myers: Mr. Manley, Mr. Easter, and Mr. Collenette.
The Chair: Mr. Collenette is the sponsor of the bill.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: I would suggest the Minister of Defence, as well.
The Chair: Let me just conclude my thought here, in consultation with the clerk.
The bill is sponsored by Mr. Collenette, so maybe we should ask him to be the first witness. The Minister of National Defence was also mentioned by Ms. Desjarlais, so we'll try....
Ms. Carroll is next, before I go to the next subject here.
Ms. Aileen Carroll: As discussed with you, Mr. Chairman, I hope it will be the view of the committee that the Canadian Bar Association be included, as I know they're preparing a brief in anticipation of a request.
The Chair: Your striking committee will certainly take all of those under consideration. If I could make a suggestion, you're welcome to submit a list of potential witnesses to the clerk.
Will it be possible today to identify members from each party who will form the striking committee?
Mr. Savoy.
Mr. Andy Savoy (Tobique—Mactaquac, Lib.): I nominate Steve Mahoney from the Liberal side.
The Chair: Mr. Mahoney.
Mrs. Bev Desjarlais: —[Editor's Note: Inaudible] —for now.
The Chair: Ms. Desjarlais.
Mr. Claude Bachand: Mr. Laframboise, and maybe Mr. Toews for now.
The Chair: Okay.
I wonder if the members who will form the striking committee will agree to try to have a brief meeting on Thursday afternoon to finalize a list of witnesses.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Excuse me, Mr. Chair, can I also suggest one name for a witnesses?
The Chair: All those names should be sent in to the clerk, please.
Mr. Sarkis Assadourian: Okay, thanks.
Mr. Steve Mahoney: What time, Mr. Chair?
The Chair: It will be Thursday at 3:30 p.m., room to be selected.
Mr. Vic Toews: That's good.
The Chair: Do we have any other business? Thank you very much for your cooperation.
[Translation]
Thank you very much. This concludes our first meeting.
[English]
The meeting is adjourned.