:
Mr. Chair and honourable members, good afternoon. I am pleased to be here today to explain the role of CSIS in supporting Canada's immigration system.
As part of our mandate, CSIS assists the government in preventing individuals who pose a threat to the security of Canada and Canadians from entering or obtaining status in this country. Maintaining the integrity of our immigration system is a vital part of strengthening Canada's security environment. The service's security screening program serves as a first line of defence against threats such as terrorism and espionage.
Using the security-related provisions in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, or IRPA, we assess whether visitors, refugee claimants, prospective immigrants, or potential permanent residents are, or are reasonably believed to be, foreign agents involved in terrorist organizations or people engaged in other violent activities. Advice on individuals of concern is then provided to our colleagues at the Canada Border Services Agency to help inform their recommendations. Our aim is to ensure that those who are inadmissible to Canada for security reasons are identified as early as possible in the process and are prevented from entering Canada.
To be clear, we do not make or enforce immigration decisions. That is left to our colleagues at CBSA and the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. Our job is to identify potential threats and to provide related advice to government.
To give you a scale of our activities in relation to Canada's immigration system, during the last fiscal year alone, CSIS received close to 200,000 citizenship screening requests, approximately 79,000 permanent residence screening requests, over 71,000 visa vetting requests, and over 17,000 refugee screening requests.
Many national security reasons can disqualify individuals from entering Canada. Activities such as terrorism and espionage, for example, are undeniable threats to our national security.
[Translation]
Terrorism—especially Islamist extremist violence—remains the greatest threat to the security of Canada and Canadians. Some individuals with ties to terrorist organizations may attempt to come to Canada, whether it is to export their extremist ideology to Canada, carry out violent attacks within our borders or use this country as a refuge while they plan attacks against other countries.
Canada is also an attractive target for espionage activities—be they of a political or economic nature—and foreign agents continue to seek to enter Canada to conduct covert activities detrimental to the country.
[English]
Perhaps less well known, activities related to the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction are also conducted in Canada. Individuals may seek to come to Canada to acquire knowledge or procure material that can then be used to develop illicit weapons programs in other countries.
Finally, the service also investigates illegal migration networks where there is a suspected nexus to terrorism. Ultimately, the objective of these investigations is to prevent illegal migration ventures from reaching Canadian shores, but when they are successful, CSIS then plays an important role in screening the new arrivals against admissibility criteria.
To summarize, Mr. Chair, there are real threats from abroad to the security of Canada and Canadians, and individuals who represent such threats need to be prevented from gaining entry or status in this country. We at CSIS play an important role in identifying these threats early and in supporting decision-makers at CBSA and CIC in determining admissibility and status.
Together with our partners, we work diligently to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of Canada's immigration system in order to ensure that it is not exploited by people acting against the interests of this country.
With that said, Mr. Chair, I will end my remarks. I will be pleased to answer any questions.
Thank you.
I thank the committee for allowing me to appear before you today and for your efforts to enhance and improve the integrity of Canada's immigration system.
My name is Todd Shean. I'm the assistant commissioner of federal and international operations for the RCMP.
I will focus my brief remarks on the RCMP's role in helping to protect the integrity of Canada's immigration system, including supporting Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency in determining the admissibility of foreign nationals who wish to come to Canada under the provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.
[Translation]
As Canada's national police force, the RCMP works closely with Citizenship and Immigration Canada, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Canada Border Services Agency, as well as domestic and international partners, to secure Canada's borders and to protect the integrity of our immigration system and maintain public safety.
[English]
One of the ways this is accomplished is through the investigation of immigration offences. This is a shared responsibility between the RCMP and the CBSA. The CBSA is the lead agency responsible for investigating most offences under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, including general offences, misrepresentation, counselling misrepresentation, smuggling, and document fraud.
The RCMP has a responsibility to combat serious and organized crime by developing and implementing strategies to disrupt organized crime threats.
As part of the continuum of investigations into immigration-related offences, the RCMP has primary responsibility for the investigation of offences under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act involving criminal organizations or national security, such as organized human smuggling, trafficking in persons offences, and those investigations requiring the employment of special police techniques.
The RCMP is also responsible for investigation of Citizenship Act offences and Criminal Code offences, such as fraud, forgery, uttering forged documents, trafficking in persons, and conspiracy.
[Translation]
However, the investigation of criminal offences is only one of the ways the RCMP is involved in protecting the integrity of Canada's immigration system. Security screening helps prevent persons who are, or have been, involved in serious criminality, organized crime, war crimes or criminal activities related to terrorist offences, from entering or remaining in Canada. If allowed to enter or remain in Canada, those individuals threaten the integrity of the immigration system and represent a potential threat to public safety.
[English]
The RCMP is a service provider to CIC for security screening and immigration applicants across the spectrum of immigration streams. The RCMP Canadian Criminal Real Time Identification Services provides security screening in support of permanent resident, citizenship, and refugee immigration programs. Applicants are checked to see if they have a criminal record in Canada that renders them inadmissible under the provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.
There are two kinds of screening activities undertaken by the Canadian Criminal Real Time Identification Services. One is name-based checks, where applicants' name and date of birth are compared against the Canadian criminal name index to see if they have a criminal record. The second is fingerprint analysis. In support of the name-based checks, the Canadian Criminal Real Time Identification Services also conducts fingerprint-based criminal record searches. If, after a name-based check is completed, there is a possible match to a criminal record, the individual making the application is required to submit fingerprints. The fingerprints are compared with those associated with the criminal conviction to confirm or verify the identity of the individual making application for permanent residency or citizenship.
In the fiscal year 2010–11, over 24,000 fingerprint submissions were processed in support of permanent residency applications. Of these submissions, approximately 24% hit a fingerprint record. In fiscal year 2010–11, over 19,000 fingerprint submissions were processed in support of Canadian citizenship. Of these, approximately 31% hit a fingerprint record. A hit occurs when the fingerprint or name-based check matches an existing record.
[Translation]
The RCMP also works with security partners to help ensure the integrity of the refugee determination system. The RCMP currently conducts fingerprint analysis for criminal records on all refugee applicants referred to them by Citizenship and Immigration Canada. In 2010, there were hits on 16.6% of refugee fingerprints. For the first 10 months of 2011, the hit rate was 18.9%.
[English]
The hits noted above include refugee applicants' fingerprints that match an existing fingerprint file during the initial or front-end screening process, as well as instances where criminal fingerprints, such as latent fingerprints found at the crime site, hit to an existing refugee file subsequent to the applicant being in Canada for a period of time.
Under the Balanced Refugee Reform Act, the RCMP receives resources to conduct a security screening pilot project in partnership with CIC and CBSA. When the Balanced Refugee Reform Act comes into force, the RCMP security intelligence background section will begin screening a percentage of refugee applicants by conducting law enforcement record checks against a number of law enforcement databases to which it has access. The value of conducting law enforcement record checks resides in the fact that this type of screening goes beyond just checking for a criminal record. To better illustrate this, the RCMP security intelligence background section conducted law enforcement record checks for Transport Canada on an existing maritime port employee whose clearance was due for renewal. While the subject had no criminal record, the law enforcement record check revealed that the port employee was an active member of an outlaw motorcycle gang.
[Translation]
Without this more in-depth screening, the applicant would likely have undergone the traditional security checks, commonly referred to as criminal record checks, which are very limited in scope. The subject would have come back as a “no hit” to the requester and conceivably would have received their security clearance.
[English]
In partnership with the CBSA and Citizenship and Immigration Canada, the RCMP also conducts visa vetting on select temporary resident visa applications. Visa vetting is an enhanced criminal screening process that provides feedback to CBSA and Citizenship and Immigration Canada concerning business and visitor visa applicants and their sponsors. It was originally set up to deny attempts by eastern European organized crime from coming to the greater Toronto area on visitors' visas.
The RCMP visa vetting program is managed under the immigration and passport branch at national headquarters. The RCMP receives information from CIC and CBSA on select visa applications. Investigators conduct database checks of the individuals making application and they conduct field interviews and investigations with the goal of verifying the information on the visa application.
[Translation]
This activity has been found to be very successful because it serves to prevent the travel to Canada of persons involved in criminality. As it specifically targets individuals associated with organized crime, visa vetting directly supports Government of Canada priorities. Currently, the program team only screens a small percentage of visa applications from three locations: Moscow, Kiev and Mexico.
[English]
The RCMP also conducts screening on applicants wishing to come to Canada through special Government of Canada public policy initiatives such as the Afghan special measures project and the Haiti humanitarian project.
In conclusion, the RCMP recognizes the importance of maintaining the integrity of Canada's immigration system. For this reason, I wish to assure the committee that the RCMP will continue to work with its partners to help protect the integrity of Canada's immigration system, both through investigational activities and also providing intelligence information related to immigration applicants so that CIC can make informed determinations on admissibility.
Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. Superintendent Cuillierrier and I are available to answer any questions you may have.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
On behalf of the official opposition, I would also like to thank each one of you and your departments for the vital services you provide in helping to keep our immigration and security system functioning well.
Where I want to sort of probe is not in the things you're doing well, because I think that's good; I want to probe where we may be able to make improvements.
There was quite a comprehensive and I think somewhat critical report by the Auditor General that came out this fall. The Auditor General's report found what he called “disturbing weaknesses” in the way Canada's border and immigration officials issue visas. He noted that CBSA analysts in particular, in his view, were not getting the training they needed. He found that their work was rarely reviewed, in his view, and that he could find no evidence that mandatory checks were completed.
I wanted to give you a chance to respond, particularly you, Mr. Venner. I think you're from CBSA....
No, that's Mr. Leckey. Let us know what your response is to those points by the Auditor General.
Thank you for that question, Mr. Davies.
We've prepared a comprehensive response to the recommendations coming out of the OAG's “Issuing Visas” report. There were four recommendations that touched on CBSA. The first one was that we should complete and update reference information that should be provided to visa officers in a timely manner. Coming out of that recommendation, there were three deliverables on the part of CBSA, and I can go through those in detail if you'd like, but I think the headline here is that we're on track to deliver on all those deliverables by the target date.
That first recommendation dealt with supports to visa officers overseas, making them better and more efficient at their job, and in particular at selecting the right people to refer for closer examination by CBSA and my colleagues.
The second recommendation was that CBSA should ensure that all information that can be obtained from security partners is relevant and is provided in advice to CIC. Essentially, that is about making CBSA, and how we do our work, more efficient.
Coming out of that were four deliverables. One of those has been completed and the other three are on track.
I want to just turn for a moment to biometrics. I will express some dismay. This committee decided to study security issues in the immigration system, and one of the specific items we wanted to discuss was biometrics. We commenced this study two days ago and are going to continue for the next eight meetings or so. Today, the government came down with a bill that already has committed to a biometrics program, which I think is regrettable, because I don't know how our committee is going to give meaningful impact at this point to a decision that's already been made. But I may as well ask you about biometrics.
The Privacy Commissioner has stated that biometrics can be used in at least two ways. One is to verify someone's information, their identity, to make sure that they are who they say they are, and the other way is to match that person's identity with entries in a database. The Privacy Commissioner has indicated that she much prefers the collection of fingerprints to be used for identity verification, not for comparison to a general database. It's my understanding that the biometrics program announced by the government is going to do exactly that: it will collect people's fingerprints and then match them to a database.
I'd like you to confirm that is the case, and, if so, tell us if you have any concerns about privacy in that regard.
:
Let me provide you with some statistics, if you don't mind.
CIC receives approximately 1.7 million visa applications per year from visa-required countries overseas. The visa officer does the first triage of them. The visa officers in missions overseas decide which ones need to be referred to CBSA for further examination because of suspicions of security concerns. So we get about 75,000 of them and conduct our examinations, together with the two partners at the table here with me.
Last year, out of those 75,000, some 692 resulted in inadmissibility recommendations that went back to the mission. They were drafted by CBSA. As you can see, that's very close to the number Mr. Venner mentioned. That is the number that CSIS provided in recommendations or advice to us. It's a very small percentage, but we believe it's an important percentage.
I'd like to mention some other statistics. Our CBSA liaison officers overseas—there are 60 of them in 46 locations around the world—are involved in denials of boarding of flights to Canada 4,000 times a year. So 4,000 times a year, advice is given to airlines that individuals should not be boarded because they're improperly documented for travel to Canada. There's that as well.
I'd also like to mention one last statistic. Last year, 54,549 people who showed up at the border were turned around—they were “allowed to withdraw”, is the term we use. In 29,900 cases, the reason was non-compliance with IRPA. In other words, they were not properly documented. They didn't meet all the requirements of IRPA for admission to Canada. For lesser criminality there were 17,000, and for serious criminality there were 5,800.
My question has to do with the screening tools employed by CBSA, CSIS, and the RCMP.
When we look at the physical attributes—the name, fingerprint, date of birth, place of birth—that only identifies the person. How do you gather the intelligence or the information to screen them for potential terrorist activity or security issues that could be an issue for admissibility, or for previous war crimes?
I refer to this because we have had a couple of cases recently of two or three individuals who have come to Canada and were here for 10 years before we identified them, and then it takes us another 10 years to get rid of them.
Perhaps you can elaborate on what your screening tools are. And how is this information shared with our counterparts worldwide, at least within those nations that are friendly to us?
It's about the screening tools beyond the obvious physical attributes.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this opportunity to appear before the committee as you begin discussions on the security of Canada's immigration system.
In chapter 2 of our most recent report in the fall of 2011, we looked at the processes followed and the information made available when checking to determine if a person applying for a visa is admissible to Canada. Joining me today is Suzanne Therrien, who was the principal responsible for this audit.
We've also examined the detention and removal of individuals from Canada and reported those findings in chapter 7 of the May 2008 report. Joining me as well is Gordon Stock, who was the principal responsible for that audit.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, when persons are being admitted into Canada, the health, safety and security of Canadians remain paramount. This is made clear in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, which sets out the rules for determining whether visa applicants are admissible, and provides the authority to detain and remove those who are not.
There may already be people in Canada who are in breach of the act and are therefore here illegally. In such cases, a removal order may be issued. In 2008, we saw that the Canada Border Services Agency had made improvements to focus on removing higher-risk individuals, but resources were limited.
[English]
Our 2008 chapter had several key messages that I would like to go over. First, although the Canada Border Services Agency had adopted better techniques to track persons who had been ordered removed from the country, the growing number of persons in Canada illegally was jeopardizing the integrity of the immigration system. In addition, the whereabouts of some of these persons was unknown.
We also found that more work was needed to ensure that persons who were detained but released on bond complied with the conditions of their release. There was little information available on the costs of detaining and removing persons or on whether policies and standards for detention were applied fairly.
Finally, the Canada Border Services Agency and Citizenship and Immigration Canada needed to focus on better coordinating their efforts.
We recommended that the department and the agency implement processes to improve the quality assurance of their joint program dealing with temporary resident permits. We also recommended that they ensure that all individuals are treated in a consistent manner and that data capture and analysis be improved to better monitor detention and removals.
[Translation]
In our 2011 audit on issuing visas, we saw that visa officers overseas had a very challenging job. However, they are well-supported—with good training before going overseas and, once there, a network that they can access for advice. Visa officers told us they use this network often.
However we found that there are some gaps in the process for managing risks and getting assurance that the system is working as intended. Of course, it isn't realistic to expect the system to be perfect. Nevertheless, we find that it is important to have information on how well the system is working so that gaps can be identified and appropriate remedial action taken. In our opinion, these gaps can be narrowed by improving quality assurance practices and by monitoring performance.
[English]
Specifically, we noted the following. First, in order to properly identify persons not admissible to Canada, visa officers need to know what to look for. However, the tools they use to help them do this were not being reviewed regularly to ensure they were up to date. Even though medical professionals were reviewing the health documentation from applicants, it remains difficult to assess danger to public health or public safety or to assess excessive demand.
Second, timely and reliable information is not always available when assessing admissibility. Information on visa applicants mostly comes from the applicants themselves, which is to be expected. It can be difficult to validate this information, and therefore any help from security partners is valuable. However, there may be little helpful information available from security partners, and a security screening for a permanent resident visa can take more than three years.
Third, quality assurance practices—in other words, checks to make sure the system is working—need to be strengthened for the admissibility determination process. We found that there are reviews and good documentation in cases where an applicant is found inadmissible. But those cases make up a small portion of the volume of visa requests. Most people coming to Canada may not pose a risk. But in a system that is there to help protect Canadians, in our opinion, it is just as important to review the decisions to grant visas as it is to review the decisions to deny them.
[Translation]
Both Citizenship and Immigration Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency have been working to make their practices better. Some progress has been made since 2000, when we first noted a lack of quality assurance in the system. The two entities have drafted a new memorandum of understanding and, at the time of the audit, were developing a joint risk management approach.
[English]
Finally, an area that could still benefit from improvement is measuring performance by developing performance indicators. Despite attempts to develop a joint framework on performance measurement, there has been little progress. The challenge has been getting good information to measure performance and demonstrate how effective the admissibility determination process has been. Both the department and the agency have agreed to focus on performance measurement as part of a current review.
[Translation]
We also noted that the two entities have prepared action plans to address our recommendations and have been working toward firm timelines.
[English]
Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement.
We'd be happy to answer any questions.
Thank you.
:
Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for inviting me.
This is a technically complex area, and that is why I've asked two experienced officials from my office to accompany me today.
Dr. Andrew Patrick has studied and written extensively on the issue of identity management, verification, and the use of biometrics. He also represents my organization in matters of privacy oversight at Interpol.
Also with me today is Lindsay Scotton, who has been managing the review of privacy impact assessments of federal government programs in my office for nearly a decade.
[Translation]
As the honourable members of the committee probably know, the Privacy Act imposes obligations each time the federal government gathers personal information. Among those obligations, the federal organizations are supposed to establish certain protection measures, limit the use of information for secondary purposes and establish the list of their databases publicly, regardless of the citizenship of those affected.
In addition, in the case of legislative or regulatory amendments to the immigration system, I expect the relevant institution to provide us with detailed assessments of private life factors.
[English]
This is why it's particularly important to strike the right balance between a necessary scrutiny to weed out the bad apples and a commitment to uphold our democratic rights and freedoms, including the right to privacy, when we process information on individuals who will be visiting our country or who are on their way to becoming Canadian citizens.
I will now ask Dr. Patrick to discuss some of the key technologies involved and their privacy implications.
:
Great. Thanks again for inviting us.
I want to talk about technology, so I've surrounded myself with some technology. I have some slides to illustrate some of the concepts as we go along.
First, I want to make it clear that I love technology. I live it and work with it all the time, but my job is to understand both the strengths and weaknesses of technology—and that's what I want to talk to you about today—and to understand what technology can do and what it can't do, with a particular focus on biometrics today.
When talking about immigration and immigration safety, the key issue is identity. Who is this person entering our country? What have they done in the past, and are they admissible? Is this person who's now at my border the same person I gave a visa to perhaps months before in some foreign mission? Did that other visitor leave the country when they said they would?
Establishing identity is hard, and it's particularly hard when some people try to deceive. Technology has an important role in establishing identity and addressing this hard problem, but technology is not a panacea. An increasing reliance on technology often implies increasing privacy risks, and that leaves us concerned.
We have a profound ability now to collect vast amounts of information. For identity programs, such as immigration, this means developing large databases that contain sensitive, valuable personal information. Large databases have proven to be very powerful, but also to be a source of serious privacy risks, including security breaches, misuse of information, function creep, and data errors. Unfortunately, our ability to develop or purchase technology is often ahead of our policies, our procedures, and our ability to manage these systems.
Let's turn to biometrics. Biometrics involves measuring characteristics of the body, either physical or behavioural, in order to aid identification and verification of people. Some popular characteristics that are used in biometric systems are the face, the eye, the fingerprint, and so on.
Biometrics are a powerful tool to help solve the identity problem, but if you allow me to quote from two great philosophers, Voltaire, and Stan Lee, the creator of Spider-Man, with great power comes great responsibility.
The way biometric systems work is to compare two samples; one sample that was collected usually earlier in time, at a time of enrollment, and a second sample that's then compared against the enrollment sample when a service is being used. Biometrics are only useful when you have two viable samples to compare against each other. The value of a biometrics system is completely dependent on the integrity of that enrollment process, the time you create the first sample.
If an enrollment procedure is weak, perhaps relying on weak foundation documents that you can't trust, then they don't really help to solve the identity problem. You still need good biographical information, and you still need good intelligence about people, their history, and their intent. Using biometrics with a weak enrollment system would increase the security and privacy risks without providing any real benefits.
When considering biometrics, it is important to distinguish between identification and verification. Identification refers to the task of finding out who someone is out of the entire population of who they might be, and this often involves large databases, perhaps involving millions of records to be compared against. Verification, on the other hand, is a much simpler task of figuring out if this is the one person that this person claims to be. Verification involves comparing two biometric samples instead of millions. Verification is an easier task than identification, and it does not necessarily have to have large databases.
It's also important to realize that biometric systems are not perfect. There can be failures. There can be failures to capture samples, for example, which might be caused by bad lighting for a photographic system or worn fingerprints. There can be false matches and false non-matches.
The total failure rate of a biometric system is also related to its scale, that is, the number of people in a database that you're comparing it against. As databases grow and more and more databases are searched, the chances of making wrong decisions increase.
Let's turn to the temporary resident visa program, which is a program that I know you've been considering. CIC will be introducing biometrics into this program, collecting both fingerprints and face photos.
The real value of the program comes in verification, in verifying the applicant when they arrive at the border. The biometric sample that's collected in enrollment when the visa is granted can be compared at the border with the person who presents themselves. This is a good use of biometrics, in my opinion, but its value is limited to verifying if this one person is the person who was given the visa a while ago.
We have had extensive consultations with CIC about the temporary resident visa program. We have raised some privacy concerns about safe collection, storage, and transmission of sensitive personal information, including biometrics. We have also been discussing the role of private sector companies in the visa application process.
Another issue related to visas is the tracking of visitors while they are here in the country. Biometric samples could be used to compare a sample collected at arrival with a sample collected at departure to determine who has left and who has not. This is a difficult task. There are multiple means by which someone can enter and leave a country, and being able to compare those samples can be difficult. There will likely be privacy issues if third parties are involved in collecting the information at entrance.
To the Auditor General's team, I've read your two reports. It's quite stunning. This is dealing with the Border Services Agency. The decisions for detention and removal are arbitrary, there are no performance measures, no quality assurance. Because there is inadequate tracking of failed refugee claimants, CBSA doesn't know where a good number of them are, and this is partially because of a failed information technology program. There is inadequate training, and they're not managing the detention costs effectively.
This is the body that is supposed to deal with those who are failed refugee claimants, to detain them and remove them. It seems to me it's not the law that's the problem; it's the implementation of the law.
I recall that close to the end of last year I was asking the staff from CBSA how many people they could deport per year. They said it was 8,000, or thereabouts, and they couldn't do any more than that because they just don't have the information technology program in place. As a result, they can't keep track of people, etc. It seems stunning that we have both your report and their admission that they just can't manage. We know this from experience and from your report, which indicates there is no timeliness to the security screening and you don't know precisely how long it might take. Sometimes it takes months; sometimes it takes years. I know of a case that has taken eight years, and they're still trying to screen the person to decide whether the person is really at risk or not.
Have you noticed any improvement, especially in the information technology area? They have been saying for years that they would be able to have the global case management system, that it is all going to work out, and that it's almost there. That was as of mid-year last year. Can they actually track people now? Do they know where people are?
As Ms. Loschiuk pointed out to begin with, we don't know how many are still in the country, first of all because of the lack of exit controls for individuals.
In terms of quality assurance on the decisions being made by agency officials, they need to be able to make a decision to admit someone based on the information in the individual responses, when they present themselves. If a person is perceived as a threat, or the agency cannot determine the person's identity, then the person is detained.
The real point is that this is being done across the country at many ports of entry, so the ability to be consistent across the country depends on proper procedures and controls, and also on monitoring afterwards and the quality assurance program. That was what we pointed out in 2008; it was not in place to be able to give that assurance.
Since then, they have had an action plan to respond to the audit. We have received information from them as far as their progress, but we have not done any further audit, as Ms. Loschiuk said. So based on that, there is more in place now. Also in 2008, we noted that they did put more effort on high-risk individuals and being able to remove them. So we saw that as something good as well.
:
Somehow I ended up over there. Anyway, I'm glad to have you guys back.
I want to pick up on Ms. Chow's comments. I think they're quite insightful, and I also think they stem from some of the comments Mr. Davies made on Tuesday with respect to the tightening up of the system. We called for this study because of your report and your recommendations, and we hope to come out of this study with some recommendations for both the minister and the ministry, which will give them the ability to take up those recommendations, and not just perhaps to implement the recommendations you made but to further enhance the system we have.
Mr. Davies spoke somewhat at our last meeting about the leniency that was in the system. There's a bit of a conflict here, because on the one hand, I hear from the folks on the other side of the House and they think the system is too slow, the system should allow more people in, and the system cuts people out of their particular ridings when they think they shouldn't be cut. On the other hand, part of the reason they would like this study to be done is that they felt there were possible gaps in the system.
I wonder if you could sort of bring that together, in the sense that the desire to expand the system and allow more folks in doesn't make the system tighter. In fact, it may require or push the system in the opposite direction. Based on your recommendations, I really would like to hear what you have to say with respect to that.