:
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.
This is meeting number 25 and we're operating under Standing Order 108(3)(g) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, September 30, 2010--chapter 4, “Sustaining Development in the Northwest Territories”, of the spring 2010 report. That's the spring report of the Auditor General, not the one that's already been advertised for two weeks from now.
We're pleased today to have with us, from the Office of the Auditor General, Madam Sheila Fraser, the Auditor General; Scott Vaughan, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, all under that same department; and Mr. Frank Barrett.
Welcome, Madam and colleagues.
From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, we have Michael Wernick, deputy minister; and Patrick Borbey, assistant deputy minister of northern affairs. From the Department of the Environment, we have Mr. Paul Boothe, deputy minister. From the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, we have Ian Shugart, deputy minister. And from the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency, we have Madame Nicole Jauvin, deputy minister and president.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for being with us. We'll get to our presentations, which, as per practice, are five minutes per each of the presenters. Although, Madam Fraser, it's not five minutes for each of you. It's five minutes for you and five minutes for the next, etc.
I'm pleased to be at this particular meeting because we're going to be talking about a very important region of the country, the north, often forgotten by so many people, not very well known by the rest. As one of my staffers pointed out to me, given the Auditor General's report, we now discover that there are actually more people, for the first time in history, than there are caribou, as an indicator of so many other things that are happening in terms of economic activity, environmental impact, and the human resources development side of the indigenous populations.
I know you're going to be talking about all of those--not specifically you, Madam Fraser, but the others together, and we look forward to your presentations.
Without further ado,
[Translation]
Ms. Fraser, you have the floor.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We thank you for this opportunity to discuss our office's work related to chapter 4 of our spring 2010 report, entitled “Sustaining Development in the Northwest Territories”.
As you mentioned, I am accompanied today by Scott Vaughan, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, and Frank Barrett, principal responsible for this audit.
The federal government has a mandate to promote political and economic development in the Northwest Territories and to protect the environment. Our audit looked at whether responsible federal departments have laid the foundations for sustainable and balanced development in the Northwest Territories. Our audit work was completed in November of 2009.
The audit focused on whether Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, Environment Canada, and Human Resources and Skills Development Canada had adequately implemented key measures to prepare for sustainable and balanced development. These measures included settling comprehensive land claim agreements and self-government agreements, establishing and implementing a regulatory system that protects the environment, and supporting appropriate economic development and skills training programs for aboriginal peoples in the Northwest Territories.
Comprehensive land claim agreements and self-government agreements set out governance rights and the ownership of land and resource rights. These agreements help to provide a level of certainty and predictability for business, industry, communities, and governments. Almost all of the Northwest Territories either lies within settled land claim areas or is the subject of ongoing negotiations.
At the time of our audit four land claim agreements had been finalized. One of them, the Tlicho agreement, was also a self-government agreement. Four other land claim agreements and ten self-government agreements were under negotiation. We found that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada had made constructive efforts to negotiate these agreements and had followed the established processes for their negotiation. As well, the department had used alternative approaches when negotiations appeared to be stalled. While much remains to be done, in our view the efforts to settle land claim and self-government agreements represent a significant achievement and an important step toward sustainable and balanced development in the Northwest Territories.
However, we also found difficulties with the annual funding process by which INAC supports aboriginal communities to enter into self-government negotiations. The nature of this process makes it difficult for communities to receive funding at the beginning of the fiscal year within which it must be spent. On average, the agreements we looked at were signed more than six months after the beginning of a fiscal year and several were signed in the last month before the agreement expired. First nations officials told us that this situation has resulted in overdraft charges and penalties, damaged business relationships, delays in meeting payroll, and the loss of experienced staff. These issues can affect first nations' abilities to participate in negotiations.
Mr. Chair, we also looked at the environmental regulatory system. Protecting the environment is important, particularly because aboriginal communities in the Northwest Territories depend on wildlife, water, and land for subsistence and for economic development opportunities. We examined whether INAC and Environment Canada had established and implemented an adequate regulatory system in the Northwest Territories. We found that in regions with settled land claim agreements there are systems and structures that support land use plans and provide a means of adequate consultation with communities.
[Translation]
In regions without comprehensive land claim agreements in place, however, there is uncertainty about aboriginal title to the land, how it may be used, and who should be consulted to make development decisions.
Moreover, in regions without settled land claims, we noted a lack of specific mechanisms for developing land use plans. Without a formal land use plan, development decisions must be made on a case-by-case basis. Decisions related to project approvals may therefore take longer because it has not been determined where different types of development should take place and what conditions should be applied.
Indian and Northern Affairs Canada also has specific responsibilities for monitoring the cumulative impact of development. This information is important because it provides co-management boards with environmental information to support informed decision making on development proposals. We examined whether Indian and Northern Affairs Canada had established priorities for monitoring cumulative impact and had implemented a plan to do so. We also examined whether Environment Canada had supported Indian and Northern Affairs Canada in these responsibilities.
We found that, 11 years after receiving a mandate to do so, Indian and Northern Affairs Canada had not yet put in place a program to monitor cumulative impact. Similarly, funding for Environment Canada's program that would support cumulative impact monitoring ended in 2007. As a result, neither department had implemented this program.
Mr. Chair, our audit also examined skills training and economic development programs for aboriginal communities. We examined two Human Resources and Skills Development Canada programs aimed at supporting skills training. We also looked at four Indian and Northern Affairs Canada programs aimed at supporting economic development for aboriginal peoples in the Northwest Territories.
We found that Human Resources and Skills Development Canada had established clear objectives and targets for both programs we examined and that it had reported on progress toward their short-term objectives. However, the department had not assessed the progress these programs had made toward their longer term objective regarding sustainable employment for aboriginal peoples.
We found that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada's economic development programs did not have clear objectives. Instead, the programs shared a number of broad objectives that were both general and vague. We also found that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada did not monitor its programs' performance or review information reported by funding recipients. During our audit, the federal government established the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency and transferred to it the delivery of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada's economic development programs for the Northwest Territories. We recommend that CanNor take action to improve these programs.
[English]
Overall, we concluded that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and Environment Canada had not adequately implemented key measures designed to prepare for sustainable and balanced development in the Northwest Territories. We made eight recommendations, most of which were addressed to INAC. INAC, Environment Canada, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, and CanNor have agreed with all of our recommendations. The committee may wish to ask the departments for their action plans and about the actions they have taken to date.
Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening statement. My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer any questions that committee members might have.
Thank you.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to be brief so that we can get to questions.
It's always a pleasure to be here and engage with parliamentarians on important issues. Indeed, the issues that are raised in this particular chapter have been discussed recently with two other committees of parliamentarians. The House committee on aboriginal affairs and northern development looked at this in June and the House committee on environment and sustainable development looked at it in May. Some of you may have had the benefit of those conversations as well.
I'm here to assure you that INAC takes the Auditor General's recommendations regarding its role in the Northwest Territories very seriously indeed, as we do all chapters. All Auditor General chapters and all audit findings are monitored very closely by the department's audit committee, and there's a follow-up process for making sure that people are pursuing the commitments in these action plans. We have developed a formal action plan to address the recommendations in the report. We provided copies to the committee in advance. Rather than go through it item by item, we'd be happy to take questions after the presentations.
As often an issue at this committee is coordination across federal departments, and as you acknowledged by inviting four accounting officers to appear at the committee this morning, there is a responsibility for implementing key measures across several departments.
I do want to emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that there is coordination and accountability through mechanisms such as a deputy ministers committee that I chair, and assistant deputy minister committees that Mr. Borbey chairs. We work closely with other federal departments and agencies to make sure that we sustain development in the Northwest Territories.
Of course it's not exclusively a federal responsibility. That's why we have to work very closely with the northern public governments and aboriginal governments. Some of the recommendations touch on that.
In terms of the pace and rhythm of development in the north, there are things we have more control over and things we have less control over. Government can't control the world price of oil or commodities, nor can we control the negotiating position of people who are across the table with us at various tables. However, the federal government does play a central role in ensuring that a strong and effective regulatory system is in place so that all players—private sector, territorial and aboriginal governments—can carry out their responsibilities in regard to development in the Northwest Territories. We work to provide territorial and aboriginal governments, in particular, with the tools they need to participate in these regulatory processes.
The Government of Canada, after this report was concluded, tabled an action plan on northern regulatory regimes. It was announced by in May 2010, and it builds on previous efforts to create a strong and prosperous north that realizes resource potential while at the same time safeguarding environmental and cultural heritage.
It's a key component in the overall northern strategy of the government. The 2010 budget action plan, just this spring, identified the north regulatory processes as a priority. There was increased investment in environmental monitoring, both in the Northwest Territories, which is a subject of this report, and Nunavut.
Through this year's budget the government committed $11 million over two years for the streamlining of regulatory regimes in the north and more than $8 million over two years for community-based environmental monitoring and reporting on baseline data collection.
The recent announcement, just this summer, of support for increased research and monitoring to inform offshore exploration activities in the Beaufort Sea, just off the Northwest Territories mainland, also demonstrates a proactive approach to sustainable economic development. The Beaufort Sea initiative will address all regional concerns and provide information that will assist in the planning for future oil and gas activities in the offshore.
Beyond and above those specific funding agreements for this initiative and the ones that were referred to in budget 2010, the federal government of course transfers very significant funding directly to the public government in the Northwest Territories every year. To give you a sense of the scope of that, in the current fiscal year the Government of the Northwest Territories will receive over $1 billion in transfer payments, targeted support, and trust funds, which is an increase over previous years.
Those resources provide a foundation for the public government in the north to develop initiatives to sustain development in the territories, but we need to work together and focus on increasing the on-the-ground capacity, so the territorial governments and aboriginal governments have the tools to support and implement these initiatives.
With these measures, public and aboriginal governments in the north will be better equipped to assume their part in sustainable development in the north. For example, and this is a subject in the report, they will have the tools needed to develop modern land use planning. The federal government agrees that land use planning is a tool for balancing investment and development opportunities with environmental stewardship and community goals. We will be providing the support to aboriginal and territorial governments in this process.
By investing in the regulatory regimes and working to implement the action plan on northern regulatory regimes, the federal government intends to ensure strong, capable northern regimes that will reassure northerners and all Canadians and our international partners that development will take place, but in a responsible and sustainable manner.
Our specific action plan from INAC will allow us to respond to a number of the recommendations in the Auditor General's report, and we can touch on that later. And as I mentioned, you'll find those in the action plan that was submitted to the committee. We'll work with our partner departments along the table with me to address the recommendations. We play a chef d'orchestre role, coordinating federal departments and agencies on the northern strategy, and we accept that coordination responsibility and hope we can discharge it. We're committed to seeing the Northwest Territories, as you alluded, Mr. Chairman, realize its full and true potential as an economically healthy, prosperous, and secure region of Canada.
Merci beaucoup.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm here today on behalf of Environment Canada and in particular to speak about recommendation 4.62, where the Auditor General says:
Environment Canada should support Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) in identifying the information requirements for cumulative impact monitoring, and for planning and implementing programs to monitor cumulative impact in the Northwest Territories (NWT).
Our role in this is primarily as scientists, and Environment Canada has over 1,500 scientists working on environmental issues across the country.
First I want to say Environment Canada accepts the recommendation of the Auditor General, recognizing that INAC is the lead in land management authority in the north, and thus the lead department responsible for this monitoring. We look forward to working with them in implementing the recommendation.
Environment Canada agrees with the Auditor General that effective management of cumulative impacts is critical to ensuring environmental sustainability in the north. To fulfill this goal, Environment Canada conducts environmental research and monitoring in the north as well as the rest of Canada in areas of water, weather, ice conditions, air quality, wildlife, and protected areas. I'd be happy to talk about some examples of that research later in the question period if asked.
Environment Canada has been an active participant in the cumulative impact monitoring program since its inception ten years ago. As noted by Mr. Wernick, the cumulative impact monitoring program was provided with additional resources in budget 2010, and Environment Canada will work with other partners to design and implement the program as it enters its next phase.
In addition to the cumulative impact monitoring program, Environment Canada will work with INAC and other partners to support the targeted science program under the Beaufort regional environmental assessment initiative. This program will provide important information for assessing cumulative impacts of oil and gas development in the NWT. Environment Canada will work with partners to ensure that its science is incorporated through our engagement on scientific communities, with data-sharing, aligning research objectives where appropriate, and especially utilizing research partnerships.
Environment Canada is also playing an active role in supporting sustainable development in the NWT. We work with the land and water boards established under the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act and the Inuvialuit Final Agreement to ensure that the best available information and science is included in discussions of cumulative impacts and is available to support decision-making.
Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, we agree that effective management of cumulative impacts is critical in ensuring environmental sustainability, and we're committed to working with INAC and our other partners in the NWT to plan and implement cumulative impact monitoring programs.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
HRSDC has an important history of working with the government and aboriginal communities of the NWT. We acknowledge that the territorial government and aboriginal communities are best placed to design and deliver programs and services that meet their unique needs and priorities. We will continue to work with them to help ensure that all Canadians in the NWT, including aboriginal people, benefit from economic development and employment opportunities.
In support of that objective, we fund a number of programs and initiatives that contribute to the development of the labour force. Some of these relate specifically to aboriginal peoples. Chapter 4 of the Auditor General's spring 2010 report, as you've heard, looked at two of those programs: the aboriginal human resource development strategy and the aboriginal skills and employment partnership program.
Ms. Fraser's report noted that HRSDC had established clear objectives and targets for these two initiatives and that we're reporting on those objectives. It also suggested that we work with aboriginal groups and the government of the NWT to assess the impact of aboriginal skills training programs to ensure that they're leading to improvements in the skills and employment prospects of aboriginal people over time. That recommendation is one we agree with. We acknowledge that the longer-term impact has not to this point been adequately assessed. Let me take a minute to outline what we are doing to address this issue.
On April 1 of this year, the department launched the new aboriginal skills and employment training strategy, with funding of approximately $1.6 billion over five years. This new program is our flagship aboriginal labour market program, and it's the successor to the aboriginal human resources development strategy that was assessed in the Auditor General's report.
ASETS, the short form of that program, focuses on three new strategic priorities: supporting demand-driven skills development; fostering partnerships with the private sector and the provinces and territories; and placing an emphasis on accountability and results. Through these priorities we are strengthening our ability to assess the impact of skills development and training activities. Under this program, we will be working with aboriginal service delivery organizations to develop strategic business plans that set out skills development and training activities and targets. The strategic business plans will include comprehensive plans for the short, medium, and long term with a focus on developing partnerships and on demonstrating employment outcomes.
The new strategic business planning process will also be supported by enhanced data collection and reporting. We've streamlined and identified more appropriate indicators and outcomes so that we can measure them and better demonstrate the difference the program is making. These measures will contribute to a reporting system that improves the communication of successes from these investments over time.
In support of aboriginal service delivery organizations, HRSDC will also be producing regular analytical reports to measure program effectiveness. These analytical reports will be shared with the aboriginal service delivery organizations on an ongoing basis, which will improve their capacity to undertake their own analysis and to tailor programming based on local labour market information.
Together these measures outlined in our action plan will improve the department's ability to assess the impact of aboriginal skills and training activities on an ongoing basis.
Let me also emphasize that we have tried to be responsive to economic conditions as they have changed. Under the economic action plan, support for the aboriginal skills and employment partnership program was increased by $100 million. Let me assure the public accounts committee that we will continue to work with aboriginal communities and our partners to assess the long-term impact and to ensure that programs are leading to improvements over time, because we are committed to helping aboriginal people get the skills and training they need to take full advantage of the economic activities and opportunities in the north.
Thank you very much, Chair.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to join my colleagues here today to speak to the Auditor General's recommendations regarding economic development in the Northwest Territories. I too will keep my comments brief.
Committee members are no doubt aware that, while the audit was being conducted, the government was in the process of creating the new Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency, or CanNor for short. The audit report acknowledges this and observes that aboriginal economic development programs would be delivered by CanNor in the territories in the future. The report makes a recommendation for the agency that relates to these programs.
We have drafted an action plan to address it. This action plan is developed around the new Federal Framework for Aboriginal Economic Development (under the aegis of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada). This framework is the result of consultation and dialogue with aboriginal groups across the country.
[English]
This fall Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is conducting engagement sessions on the national programs that will be delivered under the new framework. CanNor has been working closely with colleagues at INAC to ensure that the concerns of northern aboriginal stakeholders are heard in this process. Engagement sessions have been held in Iqaluit and Whitehorse--I had an opportunity to participate in this session just last week--and a third session is planned for Yellowknife in November.
There are clear strategic objectives for the overall framework, and these are very relevant to aboriginal economic development across the north. We believe this responds to the audit recommendation directed to CanNor that a strategic approach to economic development should guide program delivery in the Northwest Territories.
The audit report also calls for coordination of program delivery. CanNor, as the only federal department with headquarters in the north, is in a unique position to do this. We're on the ground, and we are the only federal organization with a mandate that is focused exclusively on the north. This helps strengthen our program delivery.
In delivering our own programs and assisting in coordinating those of other departments, we leverage our strengths and we try to ensure that the comprehensive delivery process achieves more than the sum of the individual program measures.
We're confident that our delivery of programs under the federal framework for aboriginal economic development will grant us new opportunities to leverage federal investments to achieve success in further strengthening northern economic development.
With respect to performance management, I would also note that our action plan includes the development of a performance management framework, which has been completed and has already been approved by the Treasury Board Secretariat.
[Translation]
Finally, and to echo the comments of my colleague Mr. Wernick, CanNor has also acted quickly to support the federal action plan to improve northern regulatory regimes. The Northern Projects Management Office, (NPMO) offers a single window for proponents of major development projects working with federal regulatory and environmental assessment processes in the north. Modeled after the Major Project Management Office which is part of Natural Resources Canada, NPMO aims to improve the timeliness, predictability, and transparency of regulatory decisions in the north by coordinating the review of project proposals. We have high expectations that this important initiative will make a real difference in the north.
[English]
CanNor is committed to economic and community development in the Northwest Territories and across the north. We welcome opportunities to work with federal, territorial, and aboriginal partners in the pursuit of this goal.
Thank you very much.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I thank you, Ms. Fraser, as well as those accompanying you for being here with us today. I would also like to thank the departmental and organizational representatives.
I will begin with something that you mentioned, Ms. Fraser. It concerns the implementation, the signing of agreements. I am looking at your comments and I find that they are quite alarming. We see that some agreements are signed at the end of the agreement period or smack in the middle of the fiscal year, when we would expect that the organizations that had tabled the applications should be in a position to carry out their projects, to implement things for people, in this case in the north. But they are not able to know in advance what will happen to them. Currently, this would seem to be a trend within the government. We have seen this phenomenon elsewhere, for example in the case of Official Languages Support Programs. Today, we see that this is also affecting assistance programs for the Canadian north.
We can only ask if the government's objective is to offer the least possible while giving the impression of offering a great deal. Agreements are signed after six months, and the implication is that certain communities will be short of money because they will be short of time. In the end, it will be the citizens of those regions who will have to pay the price, because they will not be able to take advantage of specific support programs.
Do you agree?
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Here, we examined the funding of negotiation processes, but we did not study other projects that could be funded by the federal government in this chapter specifically. The problem is caused by the fact that this is annual funding. Year after year, the funding has to be reviewed and approvals obtained. There are certain requirements, including I believe that of producing an audited financial statement from the previous year. It obviously takes some time to obtain these documents, then the department must proceed with the approval, which slows down the granting of the funding to aboriginal people for the negotiations.
As a result, we recommended that the department reconsider the possibility of granting multi-year funding and ensure that aboriginal people obtain more certain funding that would cover several years, so that they will not be obliged to assume interest costs as well as the other difficulties that I mentioned in my opening statement.
You stated that Environment Canada's program to monitor cumulative impact ended in 2007. No doubt Mr. Boothe will be able to provide us with more details on this issue. In order to evaluate the cumulative impact, we need to gather data and establish the future impacts. We are more or less repeating this whole discussion with respect to the Canadian census.
I am also taking a look at your notes, Mr. Boothe. We can read, as you stated earlier, that “Environment Canada will work with other contributors to the design and implementation of the program”. Federal funding expired in 2007. Perhaps you could provide us with some details about the way that this program ended, about how information can be added year after year, and about the other contributors.
Is your department interested in finding outside sources of money in order to compensate for the financial shortfall of the federal government?
:
Thank you for your question.
[English]
Mr. Chairman, I guess I think the important thing to point out here is that more money for impacts monitoring was included in budget 2010, but throughout the period, Environment Canada scientists and Environment Canada have continued to fund monitoring and research throughout the north. There's always the question, as the north is so vast, of your having to make decisions about how you target the places where you are going to focus your monitoring, and some of that comes from trying to anticipate where development is likely to occur next. But Environment Canada has continued to monitor. We have long-term monitoring programs, both on the wildlife side and the pollution side, that have been ongoing since the cumulative impacts monitoring program began about ten years ago.
So I think the answer is that we welcome this additional funding, but we have largely been able to keep our monitoring going on a regular basis over the years for the north.
Earlier, you zeroed in on a significant problem that becomes obvious, I believe, when you take a look at the action plans and the statements that have been made.
I am, to a certain extent, trying to understand the official commitments made by the various departments whose representatives are appearing before us today. It would appear that the Northern Economic Development Agency has made some commitments with respect to the development of the Northwest Territories. In other instances, the representatives talk about cooperation, determination. Here it says “Indian and Northern Affairs Canada is committed to helping the Northwest Territories realize its true potential as an economically healthy, prosperous and secure region”. This is not the first time that we discuss sustainable development for the aboriginal territories. We always make the same observation, namely, the difficulty of coordination.
I would first of all like to ask the Auditor General whether she has noted any tangible commitments made to the aboriginal communities by the various departments. How do you explain the fact that financing continues to arrive late, at the beginning of the fiscal year? Have you received any indication that this situation has been resolved in the short term?
:
I'll take a run at it, Mr. Chair.
[Translation]
I do not know whether or not I understood the question properly. Perhaps you could clarify if I have misunderstood.
[English]
I think one of the things the Auditor General's report makes very clear and is very helpful about is that it's better to have a settled land claim than not. When you don't have a settled land claim, there's a fair degree of uncertainty about who owns what, what is the nature of aboriginal rights and so on. Most of the province of Quebec is unsettled, as you know, except for the James Bay area. It is an issue. It is an impediment to development. That's why governments for more than 30 years have tried to negotiate and settle land claims where they can. You can only settle them if you have a willing party at the other side of the table. The parameters for our negotiators are set by cabinet, and have been set by cabinets for 30 years, and we negotiate in good faith and try to settle them.
You will never get the certainty and legal clarity in an unsettled area that you have in a settled area, and I think the report makes that clear. You can work around it, you can compensate for it, you can try to encourage development, but it's always better to have a settled land claim agreement where possible.
:
Thank you for the question.
There are a number of issues created by the existence and recognition of aboriginal rights in our Constitution. It's not clear exactly what those rights are. They were entrenched in the Constitution in 1982, and governments ever since have been trying to negotiate some clarity around what they mean. They create issues around land title and the use of resources. They create issues around the rights to hunt, fish, trap, and so on. And they create a right to self-government, which has to be exercised within the framework of the Canadian Constitution.
We've tried to negotiate clarity with different aboriginal groups on all of those matters. Some groups have decided they want to settle the land issues first, often because economic development is the most pressing concern. They will come to the table and try to resolve the land title and what not, and then move on to self-government at a later stage.
Other groups decide--and it's really up to them--that they want to pursue the self-government issues, the creation of an aboriginal government at the same time. The best example of this would be the treaties we reached in British Columbia with the Tsawwassen community near Vancouver, or with the Maa-nulth communities on Vancouver Island, where it's a sort of a comprehensive package.
Some communities, especially those south of 60 that are Indian Act communities, are pursuing self-government, and there isn't really a land issue to resolve. There are cases of that in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and others. And some people are only focusing on what's most important to their community, which might be education; that's the case in Nova Scotia. Or it might be child welfare, which is the case in Alberta.
We have to go at the pace of the first nations partners. It's great to get a comprehensive treaty, as we occasionally do, but sometimes it has to be more in sequence.
I don't know if that helps or not, but in the meanwhile, simply to make it interesting, the courts intervene two or three times a year with decisions that clarify what those section 35 rights may or may not mean.
:
They're fundamental to development in the north and they're fundamental as a path for aboriginal people across the country, in terms of how they can take charge of their economic, social, and cultural future.
What makes the north a very exciting place to visit is that we have very advanced agreements in place across most of the north. All of the Inuit land claims are settled now. They've exercised their aboriginal rights through the public government of Nunavut for more than a decade now. Many communities up and down the Mackenzie Valley have been exercising their land claims agreements for some time. The Inuvialuit I think are up to about 25 years now. They chart a path very different from that of the Indian Act. What you'll often see is a lot of south of 60 first nations leaders going up to the Yukon or the Northwest Territories to see if this is the path forward. When there is any bit of...what's the word? When the implementation doesn't go as fast and as smoothly as it should, we're upset by that, too, because we'd like to go to first nations across the country and say there is a better way, that you can get out of the Indian Act and you can take control of your future.
The challenge is.... I could go on at length, but Mr. Chairman will cut me off. It's always a challenge for a small community--1,000 or 2,000 people--to exercise broad responsibilities. Running a child welfare agency, a school, or a health authority is hard to do for any community, so what we try to do is make sure the capacity, the management, and the human resources are in place when they take up the jurisdiction and start running these programs and services.
:
I could get the math for you on that.
The first one was the James Bay agreement in 1975. There was a wave in the 1990s in the Yukon and across the north; they had been at the table for close to 15 years.
You see that in some cases it gets faster because it's pretty clear what the template is. If I could take this opportunity, I'll note that the people with unsettled claims at the south end of the Mackenzie Valley, the Dehcho and the Akaitcho, know exactly what kind of agreement they could get because the Gwich'in, the Sahtu, the Tlicho, and the Inuvialuit agreements are there for them to read. They've decided they want to hold out for a different kind of agreement. We always hope that by setting the example and giving a pretty clear sense of what you can get at the table, you can go to another negotiating table and say, “Is this close enough?” or “How do you want to adapt it?”
It's the same thing in British Columbia. Now that we have treaties in place with the Tsawwassen and with the Maa-nulth, we probably can get seven or eight more treaties fairly quickly. There are a few complicated issues around fish allocation to work through, which I'm not underestimating, but I'm trying to be optimistic.
But actually the average doesn't tell you very much; we expect momentum to build, to feed on itself.
:
Absolutely, and we've gone through this rather exhaustively with the Senate committee on aboriginal peoples. In terms of the north--and the map is in the Auditor General's chapter--it's the south end of the Mackenzie Valley, which is the Dehcho people and the Akaitcho people. A couple of the communities have decided that they may want to get a deal on their own outside the framework of their larger grouping.
Then in the Yukon, almost all of the first nations settled in the 1990s. There are three holdouts, I think it is, and they've just decided that.... And they overlap with the same people in the north part of British Columbia, south of the 60th parallel.
But in terms of the chapter we're talking about today, it's basically two groups: the Akaitcho and the Dehcho. They overlap, just so you get a sense of our world, with the Métis who live in the Northwest Territories, and there is a severe disagreement between the first nations groups and the Métis groups as to whose rights apply where.
:
It's much appreciated. Thank you very much, Chair.
Thanks to all the witnesses today.
It's nice to see you again, Madam Fraser.
I want to focus my questions around two key issues: accountability and follow-up.
Ms. Fraser, in this report you made eight recommendations to the government. Are you satisfied with the government's response to your recommendations? I'm going to allude to your opening remarks. You said, “Overall, we concluded that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and Environment Canada had not adequately implemented key measures designed to prepare for sustainable and balanced development in the Northwest Territories”. Aside from that remark, are you happy overall with the government's response to your recommendations?
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Chair, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, this audit was completed in November of 2009. Since then, as was indicated by the deputy ministers, in budget 2010 there was additional funding put in for environmental monitoring and other activities in the north. You will note in some of the responses that the government refers to “if additional funds are available”, and it would appear that this has occurred.
We are pleased with the action plans that have been developed by the departments, and we believe that for the most part, obviously, if these things are put into place and the actions are completed, they will address many of the recommendations. But as Deputy Minister Wernick mentioned, much of this depends upon the settlement of the agreements with those two groups, which are still outstanding and which represent about 30% of the territory. Until that certainty is there, there will be difficulties with economic development on a broader scale, with questions around ownership of resources, land, public consultation, and so on. But for the environmental monitoring, we do believe that if the actions are put into place it should address many of the issues raised in the report.
If I could just add this on follow-up, we in the office go back and do follow-up audits to see if departments have actually done the work they have committed to do in their action plans. Furthermore, there are departmental audit committees that have a specific responsibility to track the implementation of the recommendations that have been made. So the committee can expect in probably two, three, or four years to see a follow-up report on this audit.
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Thank you, Chair. I was looking at that report as well.
Madame Jauvin, we're going to look at your report in detail, but perhaps you could tell us something. My understanding is that historically no prime minister, since perhaps John Diefenbaker, has understood the importance of the north better and has committed the time and resources that Prime Minister Harper has. My understanding of that is because of the consideration that there's unlimited potential in the north, and I think evidence of that is the creation of the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency.
I was impressed with the impact of your statement. You are there on the ground--that's huge--and you have done a consultation process and you have a framework.
Could you please comment on the key principles of that framework and how they will help develop the tremendous potential of our north?
Welcome to our guests today. It's good to see you all.
I think it's both a good news and bad news story. It's just horrendous to see problems that have existed for 20, 30, 40 years still ongoing.
It reminds me of a few years ago when some of my colleagues were sitting around a table like this in the public accounts committe, and we were dealing with the aboriginal education file. Of course we spent eight or nine billion dollars over a few years and the results were even poorer than they were 20 years prior to that. So needless to say, it's just not acceptable and satisfactory to carry on with the progress that we have made, because it's been very little. However, I am encouraged now today when I see the report that there has been some progress in a number of areas and finally some activity and some action, but of course promises don't pay the bills.
We have some new arrangements that have been made. Perhaps, Mr. Wernick, first, with regard to multi-year funding, there was an obvious recognition that the present one-year funding wasn't doing the job. Of course a lot of the bills were coming in, and by the time the approval process got there--overdrafts, etc.--it was a horrendous story. Why did you not go to multi-year funding before? Why have you now agreed to, and to what extent will this be fully implemented?
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That's an excellent set of questions. I may come back to education, if I can squeeze it into my first answer.
You can only put in multi-year agreements if you have a multi-year program. I cannot sign and commit funds for programs that are going to expire. Part of it is trying to stabilize the funding base of the programs. Part of it is the red tape around federal contribution programs, which was the subject of the blue ribbon panel on grants and contributions. announced the government response to it, and all departments that do grant contribution work will be implementing the new transfer payment policy on April 1. That creates some pretty exciting opportunities to have more stable, predictable funding agreements if you have a stable program base, and we will try to take advantage of that.
This chapter zeroed in on the funding that is given to people to prepare for self-government. We'd provide a set of loans or contributions. There are about a dozen recipients in the NWT. We're talking about somewhere between $8 million and $9 million a year. I'd be happy to table with the committee a list of who they are.
Part of the issue that comes up, and it's not an excuse, is that you cannot commit money to somebody who hasn't met the obligations in the previous year's agreement. Sometimes it's getting an audited financial statement or report on this or that, and we have people who have to enforce compliance. It does cause delays. That's one of the issues. It is a red tape kind of process, but if we had advanced funding early in the year to people who had not met the obligations under the previous agreement, we'd probably be discussing a different kind of audit finding.
We're going to try to find ways to speed this up, focus on the tables that are productive and look like they're going somewhere, and take advantage of that.
In the interest of not leaving bad impressions where no malice was intended, I think all members around the table now have the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency draft report, which has attached the action plan, organizational accountability, timelines, and progress to date. So in fairness to Madame Jauvin, perhaps....
I don't know whether we'll be able to do it today, but we might be able to reference it a little later on. I realize that there was a level of discomfort around the table because we weren't able to address it earlier. But we'll go back to it in a moment.
I'm wondering if we can go now to Mr. Bevington.
[Translation]
Yes, madam, do you have a question?
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I just want to move on to cumulative impact monitoring programs, because they do actually come down to the ground. I think it's very clear that's happened in the case of our caribou population in the Northwest Territories. That is a case where we've seen declines in the caribou population to a great extent, and the understanding of that decline is hampered because we don't have cumulative impact monitoring in place.
We don't understand the differentiation between the pressures of development in terms of the diamond mines. We don't have understanding of the pressures in terms of the climate change that's taking place in the regions. We don't understand the differentiation between commercial and residential hunting on those populations.
So we don't have an opportunity because we haven't done the work with cumulative impact monitoring. So what is playing out on the ground is that we are losing our caribou herds without understanding why that's taking place.
The federal government has a responsibility under the NWT act to either declare caribou endangered, moving to extinction, or not. So the federal government has a very, very strong responsibility in this regard to the caribou that they abrogated in the spring by saying no, they don't.
I'd just like you to comment on this, because this is a serious issue that's in front of the Northwest Territories right now. We need to expand the monitoring of these herds, because they are the basis of the biological system in the Northwest Territories.
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I would say we have a balanced responsibility to promote economic development, much of which is going to be driven by resource industries, and mining seems to be a better bet than oil and gas these days. It will probably last longer, given the Chinese appetite for resource commodities. It's probably a better long-term play.
What we want to see in the north is sustainable mining with responsible environmental and social impacts. We don't want to see the Giant Mine repeated out of Faro. We want to have modern, what they call third-generation mining, as you know, and I know you're very familiar with this, Mr. Bevington. We're trying to promote a sustainable approach to mineral development. We think in NWT, in the Yukon, and in Nunavut, this can be one of the drivers.
To make a quick hand-off to my colleagues, if you know you're going to be pulling iron ore up the Mary River site in Nunavut for the next 35 years, you can actually do some human resource planning as to where those skilled workers will come from and where the people are, and that's why the agencies are able to actually do something that's more sustainable than fly in and fly out, bring some people in from Newfoundland and they go back after the project is finished--all apologies to that model. I think it's a very important thing.
Lastly, just to help the members understand, in the Northwest Territories and in Nunavut, INAC and the minister are basically the equivalent of a provincial lands department. We do a lot of the things you'd see in a provincial lands department. In the Yukon we were successful in devolving that to the territorial government and we've been trying to negotiate devolution to the other two territorial governments. We would like to get out of the land department business and give it to the public government in the north, where it should be.
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Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.
It's an interesting one, Mr. Boothe. In the end of your conclusion, you talked about being committed to working with the Department of Indian Affairs and other partners in the Northwest Territories to plan and implement effective monitoring programs.
How is the working relationship and the coordination? It's not very often we end up with four departments that were expecting to come together in harmonization, where they actually have some different objectives, I would suspect, in the big principle of it all. Can I just ask you, since you had mentioned it, how is the working relationship in coordinating? I would see that as having some difficulty, but we also, on this side--on all sides, actually--see that this is significant and important to have.
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Yes, I think that's quite right. Depending on the baseline circumstance of individuals in those communities, temporary work may be better than nothing at all, but what we're really after is the development of long-term employment prospects that flow from long-term sustainable economic development.
What we are about--in response to the observation that the Auditor General has made--is not the value per se of the investment and the jobs that are created; her report indicates that the communities have responded well to these programs and the objectives are clear. Going forward, we want to be able to demonstrate to parliamentarians that we know what has been achieved.
So I think in our case, we will continue the investment that Parliament provides for skills training and job development, but our emphasis at the moment is on how we go about that so that we can in fact demonstrate value over time. These strategic plans, these business plans that we will be developing with the organizations, will articulate what those goals are, what the provision will be for long-term benefit.
Then we've been developing indicators. We refer in our action plan to some of those, the impact of the program on the duration of client employment, the impact on earnings of the clients, one indicator being the reliance of the client on employment insurance or other forms of income support, and then various measures of satisfaction of the individuals who've been through those programs.
In time, as we develop those indicators through the employers and the employees, we will be able to demonstrate much more systematically the long-term value of these investments.
I thank all the witnesses for coming. It's great to see many of you again.
My questions are for Ms. Fraser. I'm always delighted to have you at committee.
On numerous occasions in the past you have talked about many problems with the implementation of land claims north of 60. In fact, this summer, when and I toured the north, we heard those in spades again. However, in your speech here, in paragraph 5 you talk about agreements being finalized, including the Tlicho agreement, which was a self-government agreement. You said, “in our view the efforts to settle land claim and self government agreements represent a significant achievement and an important step”.
Yet less than a month ago I got input from the Dene that says once claims have been settled, the claimant groups have great difficulty in implementing their agreements. A case in point is the Tlicho government in the Northwest Territories. Tlicho are having difficulty implementing their agreement.
How do you reconcile your glowing speech with the problems you have seen in the past and what we heard this summer and in this recent letter on the implementation?
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In paragraph 7 of your remarks, you talked about the importance of the environment to aboriginal peoples in the north, etc., and that it's why you studied it. You “examined whether INAC and Environment Canada had established and implemented an adequate regulatory system in the Northwest Territories”.
An important component of a regulatory system is monitoring and enforcement. I just want you to comment on that, and I want to give two examples of potential lacks here.
First of all, the government recently closed the entire Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences. A lot of that monitoring in the north, the closest monitoring of climate to the North Pole, and all of the scientists are gone. So that's a reduction in monitoring.
The second point is that when the Law of the Sea extended the 100-mile limit to 200 miles, basically adding to Canada an area the size of Saskatchewan, the government, when asked in committee, said no, they had not included any monitoring ability or forces or enforcement ability, but maybe one environmental officer in Yellowknife, which, as you know, is not really close to being 100 miles offshore in the Northwest Territories. This is a theme, actually, of this government.
So do you have any comments on the lack of monitoring and enforcement and abilities and resources to do that?
I think as the Auditor General mentioned, we've noted in the report that while Environment Canada does undertake, as the deputy mentioned, ongoing monitoring, it has limited monitoring capacity north of 60. We've already discussed INAC's cumulative environmental impact program. Their own 2005 evaluation said they were not delivering what they were required to do under the act.
There's of a broader question, which I think the deputy of INAC mentioned. As we've noted in the report, there are gaps in baseline information, and the point of cumulative effects is to understand how different environmental indicators fit together. This is particularly urgent in the context of the north because of the fragility of the ecosystems.
So there are gaps, as the honourable member mentioned. There's been a 63% reduction in the Bathurst caribou herd. But the broader question is what are the drivers of that? For that it is important to undertake a cumulative monitoring system to understand both conditions as well as linkages between the different environmental drivers.
So, yes, we've noted, first, that the cumulative impact system is incomplete and therefore that decision-making is not fully informed, and that there are gaps in critical information.
The first two priorities, demand-driven skills development and fostering the partnerships with the private sector and with the governments in the territories, are really working out of this vision of sustainable long-term employment and the training that will enable that. We want there to be a skilled workforce in the north so that employers, as they invest and undertake development, can draw on the base of the population in the north, and not have to source their workforce from the south, frankly.
The best way to do this is to foster between the program and those who are going to be investing and undertaking the development the kinds of linkages, for example, so that long-term skills needs can be identified, depending on the type of economic activity that is going to occur. We can then come in through these training funds, working in partnership with others to provide the training capacity so that those workers will be there. Whatever form this needs to take, whether it's training or whether it's enabling the actual jobs, those two priorities really flow from that vision.
The third one, the emphasis on accountability and results, is really very much part of the modern requirement that we all live with. You, as members of the public accounts committee, focus on the Auditor General's documents, and we, as departments, endeavour to satisfy that we not only do good things with taxpayers' money but we can demonstrate that we have done worthwhile things with that money.
We want to do this in as efficient a way as possible, but part of the program will be how we set it up and deliver it. We will have these strategic business plans. We will try to avoid them being process and bureaucracy, but they have to be a joint product of the program and of the employers so that we can document what the objectives are.
Part of it is the data development and collection, and reporting out. We can then map what has actually been achieved and use intelligent indicators, sometimes using administrative data such as employment insurance claims, to be able to tell the duration of employment in a particular area, and then report that out and over time be able satisfy parliamentarians that the investments actually have made a difference in the north.
Along the way, we think we're going to be hearing from employers and from workers, and all of the multiplier effects from that, that these programs actually are working to build a long-term workforce in the north. That's how we see it all working together.
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In fact, I was actually short of time earlier, and the witnesses from the various departments did not have an opportunity to answer a number of my questions. I would therefore ask that they submit a written response to the committee.
Now I would like to ask another question during this round. Ms. Fraser, you found that INAC's economic development programs did not contain clear objectives, that the department was not monitoring the outcomes of those programs and was not assessing the data submitted by funding recipients.
Mr. Wernick, you talked earlier about an interdepartmental coordination committee. I would like you to submit in writing the date of the last meeting and the frequency at which the coordination committee meets.
I also noted that you implemented systems to produce management reports. What data do you feed into those systems? I would like you to submit to us in writing the title of the reports, how often they are produced and to whom they are distributed.
I know that you also produce internal audit reports. I would appreciate it if you could submit to us your department's internal audit reports concerning the programs that have been assessed as part of the Auditor General's report.
Thank you.
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We'll give you an opportunity on another day, Mr. Wernick.
Just in closing, I suppose one of the things that's coming up through all of this--I think you twigged to it first of all--is something I think Madam Fraser always refers to, and that is overlapping of jurisdictions. You raised the issue, and I asked who had jurisdiction. It appears you do, which leaves the question about why we would need a separate agency to do what you're going to be doing.
But primarily for Mr. Shugart, although you're the one who raised the issue of the amounts of money that are put in HRSDC for development with aboriginal communities, it's nice to have the number $1.6 billion over a five-year period and an additional $100 million for ASEP, aboriginal skills and employment partnership, but you didn't give us an indication how much of that was dedicated to northern development or to aboriginals in northern communities. I think it would be a little more instructive for us to have a better picture of that, and I'm wondering whether, when you're submitting your written response to us to those other three questions, you'd include that.
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Very good. I thank you very much.
We're almost at the very end. I want to ask committee members to stay behind for a couple of minutes more just to clarify a couple of business things.
I want to thank each and every one of the witnesses for the time they've given us. It's been good and useful. I didn't mean to generate controversy between the department and the Auditor General, but I'm sure they're used to that anyway, right? Thank you very much.
I'll take 30 seconds, and then we'll go on to business.
First of all, there is the issue of what we're going to do because our meetings go over the luncheon period. I think today was a little bit of an oversight. The clerk already has your wishes well in hand. There will be light lunches served from here on in at those meetings.
Second, the steering committee is going to meet tomorrow at one o'clock. I think the clerk will notify each of the members on the steering committee. There will be an agenda for that steering committee.
For Thursday, we're going to carry on and we're going to try to wrap up some of the issues that you as a committee had given an indication you wanted to deal with. I thought it might be well worth our while to continue with the agenda that had been established, subject, of course, to the availability of the witnesses. I understand there are still a couple that have to be confirmed. The reason I wanted to fill that out is that, as we all know, the Auditor General is coming in with a new report on the 26th, and I think it would be more than appropriate for us to get a current....
There are five draft reports that we still haven't dealt with, so I'm hoping that on Wednesday the steering committee will discuss how we are going to deal with those. It will all be on chapter 5.
Is there anything else?