SDEV Committee Meeting

38th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION

Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, November 2, 2004

The Clerk of the Committee

Mr. Navdeep Bains (Mississauga—Brampton South, Lib.)

The Clerk

The Clerk

The Chair (Hon. David Kilgour (Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, Lib.))

Ms. Diane Bourgeois (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ)

The Chair

Mr. Don Bell (North Vancouver, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, CPC)

The Clerk

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

The Chair

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

Mr. Navdeep Bains

The Chair

Hon. Ed Broadbent (Ottawa Centre, NDP)

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

The Chair

Mr. Stephen Knowles (Committee Clerk)

The Chair

The Clerk

The Chair

Hon. Ed Broadbent

The Clerk

Hon. Ed Broadbent

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

The Chair

Mr. Navdeep Bains

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Hon. Ed Broadbent

The Chair

The Clerk

The Chair

Mr. Navdeep Bains

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Hon. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. James Lee (Committee Researcher)

Hon. Ed Broadbent

Mr. James Lee

Hon. Ed Broadbent

Mr. James Lee

Hon. Paddy Torsney

The Chair

Mr. James Lee

The Chair

Hon. Paddy Torsney

The Chair

Hon. Ed Broadbent

The Chair

Hon. Ed Broadbent

The Chair

Hon. Ed Broadbent

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

Hon. Paddy Torsney

The Chair

Hon. Paddy Torsney

The Chair

Mr. James Lee

The Chair

Mr. Peter Goldring

The Chair

Hon. Paddy Torsney

The Chair

Ms. Diane Bourgeois

The Chair

Hon. Paddy Torsney

The Chair

Mr. Stephen Knowles

The Chair

Mr. Stephen Knowles

The Chair

CANADA

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, November 2, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

*   *   *

Á  (1110)  

[English]

    The Clerk of the Committee: Good morning, honourable members. I see a quorum.

    Pursuant to Standing Order 106(3), we're here to elect a chair. I'm ready to receive motions to that effect.

    Mr. Navdeep Bains (Mississauga—Brampton South, Lib.): I'd like to nominate the Honourable David Kilgour.

    The Clerk: Are there any other nominations?

    All in favour? Opposed?

    (Motion agreed to)

    The Clerk: I invite Mr. Kilgour to take the chair.

[Translation]

    The Chair (Hon. David Kilgour (Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, Lib.)): Thank you so much. I promise to all of you that you can count on me to respect your opinions.

    First, we have to vote on this committee rules. Have you had time to read them?

[English]

    Does anyone want to object before we go through them? I think they're customary, aren't they? If you want to change anything, please do.

[Translation]

    Is it all right?

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois (Terrebonne—Blainville, BQ): It seems to me that these rules are the same as those of other committees this year. There is no problem we trust them.

[English]

    The Chair: Can we pass them all at once?

    Yes, Don.

    Mr. Don Bell (North Vancouver, Lib.): Just as a point from having been on other committees, I don't know if you want to clarify it or not, but there is one issue about the allocation of the seven minutes and the five minutes. The issue that has come up is whether that includes the answers or not.

    Regarding the time that's there, depending on how the time is allocated for the meeting, I would just suggest the experience has been that in some cases that time gets used for the statements and the questions, with no time for questions of the people, if that's the case.

    The Chair: My instinct would be that the answers would be included in the seven minutes or the ten minutes--unless anybody wants to disagree.

    Can somebody move that we pass them all, then?

    Mr. Peter Goldring (Edmonton East, CPC): I have a question, which I had raised earlier, on the vice-chair. Is that a position that is normally appointed?

    The Clerk: Normally on subcommittees there are no vice-chairs, but it's up to the subcommittee to decide if you want one.

    Mr. Peter Goldring: All right, I guess I pose the question.

    Given that in the last session I believe Stockwell was the vice-chair, in the interests of expediency and management, it might very well be appropriate to have a vice-chair, and I propose that.

    The Chair: Is there a nominee for vice-chair? Do you want to propose him as the nominee for vice-chair?

    Mr. Peter Goldring: Yes.

    The Chair: Okay, so moved.

    Does anybody wish to speak for or against?

    (Motion agreed to)

[Translation]

    The Chair: We can only have one vice-president.

    Would someone proceed with the motions? Ms. Bourgeois would you like to do so?

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: Yes I shall move them Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: All right.

    (Motion agreed to)

[English]

    The Chair: Thank you.

    With your indulgence, one of the issues is setting a time that works for all of us, the least worse time for all of us to have these meetings.

    I know that's going to be tough, but this is a very difficult time. Is this time slot difficult for anybody else--11 a.m. to 1 p.m. on Tuesdays and Thursdays?

    I think you have another committee, Madame.

[Translation]

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: Yes I have another committee but there is no problem. That time suits me very well.

[English]

    Mr. Navdeep Bains: I have no problem with it, but I'm willing to compromise if that would accommodate other individuals.

    The Chair: What about you, Ed?

    Hon. Ed Broadbent (Ottawa Centre, NDP): I think it's okay, too. I'm not certain, but I think it should be fine.

    The Chair: Yikes. I was told we could set any time other than when the foreign affairs committee is meeting. The problem this presents for me--and I'm sorry to bring this up--is that with the mad cow problem in Alberta, the agriculture committee meets at this time, 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. on Tuesdays and Thursdays, too.

    If it would be possible to find another time that would be all right for all of you, I'd be deeply grateful--

[Translation]

    If we suggested another time.

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: You want to know whether this particular time suits us?

    The Chair: This is very difficult for me because I sit on two committees at the same time, that is 11 a.m.

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: I was under the impression that the subcommittee met on Mondays from 5:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. in the beginning. These are the hours we had agreed upon. There was the full committee, then the subcommittee.

[English]

    The Chair: D'accord.

    Is that your understanding?

[Translation]

    Mr. Stephen Knowles (Committee Clerk): It would be possible Mr. Chair. I didn't know it had been agreed upon. All I know is that you cannot sit at the same time as the main committee, which sits from 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. on Mondays and Wednesdays.

[English]

    The Chair: Would it be possible to ask the clerk to find a time that works for everybody? Hopefully, there is a time other than this, and then we could meet at that time.

    Could we ask you to do that, clerk?

    The Clerk: I will consult the members with proposals, and then we'll go from there.

    The Chair: Nobody wants to meet at night, I'm sure, until seven. Is that right?

    Hon. Ed Broadbent: The clerk will presumably get a list of the other committees we're on and determine it from that.

    The Clerk: Yes.

    Hon. Ed Broadbent: Good.

    The Chair: Okay. We certainly don't need a subcommittee. I hope we can meet to decide on what we're going to do. Madam Bourgeois has already proposed Darfur as a subject to look at, as well as the position of women in southern Mexico.

    I mention that you're all invited to a meeting. Members from all parties are meeting with the Sudanese community of Ottawa on Thursday at 3:30. Then, at 4:30, there's going to be a press conference. All parties are going to be represented. Stockwell Day has agreed to come. Have we had confirmation from the Bloc on who's coming? Is Odina Desrochers coming?

Á  (1115)  

[Translation]

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: Odina? Yes, probably.

[English]

    The Chair: Please, all of you would be more than welcome to come.

[Translation]

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: Except that we from the Bloc Québécois have another meeting at the same time with other officials.

    The Chair: Yes, I know. Excuse me, but this is the only time we can hold this press conference.

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: There is no problem. If Odina is in attendance, there is no problem.

[English]

    The Chair: Alexa McDonough is coming.

    Please come, Navdeep.

    Mr. Navdeep Bains: I plan to come.

    The Chair: Good. Wonderful.

    Please come, Peter, if you can.

    Un autre sujet?

    Mr. Peter Goldring: Is it appropriate for this committee to be looking at the United Nations rights of the child as an issue?

    I'm particularly concerned about article 38. Basically, the United Nations rights of the child clarify and define a child as a person under the age of 18, yet article 38 very clearly and specifically allows for children of the age of 15 to be recruited for military use. Obviously, by reverse, a child even of the age of 12, if he volunteers and can carry an AK-47, is appropriate for the military. Is this an issue that we can look at?

    The Chair: I certainly don't know the answer to the question.

    Mr. Peter Goldring: We could look at it.

    The Chair: It's a subject that we can agree to study, and we could look at it. There are so many subjects that we can look at.

    Mr. Peter Goldring: I know. But this happens to be one that is of national prominence that we bring up once up a year on an annual celebration in our schools, yet there's one glaring article in there that stands out very revoltingly, and it's never mentioned.

    The Chair: Thank you for raising it.

    Ed, do you have something?

    Hon. Ed Broadbent: What I would find useful, having been away for many years, is if we could have circulated a list of subjects that this committee has looked at in recent years. Presumably, some members here have been on previous committees. I know some have. It's only so we don't go over old ground. Could that be circulated to us?

    The Chair: Fine. Can we ask the clerk?

    Can you do that?

    The Clerk: Yes.

    The Chair: Okay. We'll do that.

    Perhaps at the next meeting, we'll try to inch towards what we'll agree on to do.

    Mr. Navdeep Bains: I have no problem. I think it would be good to see what we have done in the past, and maybe look at some of the motions we have passed, so we're not reinventing the wheel. At the same time, I think we should be open to new areas as well. So it would be a compilation of what we've done in the past, with the notion that we are able to...(Inaudible--Editor).

    The Chair: I quite agree.

    Can we agree to...?

    Sorry. Excuse moi, Madam Bourgeois.

[Translation]

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: Mr. Chair, we are a subcommittee. Therefore we have the opportunity to be very concrete in our action in order to supply, on the one hand, the main committee and, on the other hand, to show the people that we are in fact concerned with the same problems that concern them.

    I suggested earlier the Darfour problem. Of course I suggested also the problem of the women of Ciudad Juárez. I am willing to discuss the rights of the child but it is such a broad subject for people.

    Couldn't we ask our clerk to find out what are the current issues that concern the Canadian and Quebec people? For example, there is the Haiti issue. I know that Mr. Goldring has raised a lot of problems regarding the Caribbean; this is something I am less aware of.

    Mr. Chair, I would ask you to be very down to earth so that we can address the concerns of ordinary people. Then, if we have a little time left, we can address the important matter of the rights of the child.

    At the present time, the whole Jewish community has problems of recognition and security here in Canada. We could deal with small issues on which we could quickly agree upon, which would meet the expectations of the Canadian population.

Á  (1120)  

    The Chair: Thank you very much.

    We could ask the committee researchers to make this inquiry. We have among us a former president of [Editor's Note: Inaudible]. The name has perhaps changed since your time.

[English]

    We're just talking about subjects we're going to look at in the future. The research staff is going to find out what subjects Canadians are preoccupied with through polls and so on. We never use polls in the Liberal Party. We'll find out what seems to be the priority for Canadians and what we can study.

    I should be more formal.

    Mr. Goldring.

    Mr. Peter Goldring: Will we have an opportunity to have some input, some suggestions of various issues--Haiti is a very real concern, ongoing, as we speak--and on what type of a timeframe, before you start collating and bringing back to the committee?

    The Chair: We decide what the program is going to be, not the research office.

    Mr. Peter Goldring: No, no. For the next meeting--when will the next meeting be? What type of a timeframe are we looking at here?

    The Chair: A week from now. Would that be...?

    Mr. Peter Goldring: A week from now. Okay.

    The Chair: Two weeks from now. Would that be all right? We'll try to get a date.

    Is there anything else?

    Hon. Paddy Torsney (Burlington, Lib.): First of all, I apologize to all of you that I was delayed. I was over at the International Cooperation Days. Those days are still going on, if any of you are interested in attending. The Minister of International Cooperation had sent a letter to everybody, encouraging them to participate. Stephen Lewis spoke last night—rocked the room, of course. Jeffrey Sachs was there yesterday, and we had Eveline Herfkens today. That's why the session went a bit long. I have a program if anyone is interested. It's just at the Congress Centre.

    One of the challenges was set out to us today. I don't even know where the department is at, so I raise it perhaps a bit without knowing the answer. I gather, in terms of the millennium development goals, that the developed countries are choosing to report on their progress on reaching the eighth goal, which is to increase development assistance. That could be something we talk to the minister about and encourage as part of our work. I don't know if there's a way we can feed into what the finance committee is doing in its work, but there could be some overlap. This committee could encourage them to work on some of those issues too.

    The Chair: Does the research service want to give us some thoughts or comments, please?

    Mr. James Lee (Committee Researcher): I want to tell people that the Minister of International Cooperation will be coming before the main committee on November 15 to talk about the estimates for CIDA, which, as you know, is always a way to talk about the broader policies. That will be right around the same time the committee meets again. You might want to consider going along to that and talking about these broader questions.

    Hon. Ed Broadbent: The minister will be coming for what committee?

    Mr. James Lee: Main estimates for CIDA in front of the standing committee.

    Hon. Ed Broadbent: The foreign affairs committee.

    Mr. James Lee: The foreign affairs main committee, but the CIDA main estimates.

    Hon. Paddy Torsney: November 15 in the afternoon. So if we could avoid that time period, that would be great.

    The Chair: Two weeks tomorrow. I'm sure you'll make sure we avoid that.

    Is there anything you would like to add as a person who knows, who's studying this issue?

    Mr. James Lee: No, just that we are taking notes of your comments and will try to draft something up for your consideration in two weeks in cooperation with the clerk and the chair. Any other suggestions, please get in touch with us.

    The Chair: If you'd like to, feel free to contact any of the members, please.

    Can we adjourn for the day?

    Hon. Paddy Torsney: Could I just make one other suggestion? I gather there's another subcommittee on the trade side. I guess I'm concerned that if we separate out the issues so completely to one development, one trade, that we could miss some opportunities. I don't know if there's a possibility that from time to time we could consider issues jointly, whether it's in the lead-up to the next WTO round or whatever. But I think there are some real opportunities on the trade side to help on the development side. I think it could provide us some interesting ways forward and a uniquely Canadian perspective on some of the issues.

Á  (1125)  

[Translation]

    We could work together.

    The Chair: That is a good idea. I am told that we can bring committees together for the purpose of a meeting.

[English]

    Sure.

    If there's no other.... Yes.

    Hon. Ed Broadbent: Could I just get clarification on when you say “merge the committees”?

    The Chair: Just for meetings.

    Hon. Ed Broadbent: It could be for one meeting or to deal on certain issues, conceivably two or three meetings or something on the same issues.

    The Chair: The committees could have two or three meetings together, something like that.

    Hon. Ed Broadbent: On the same issues.

    The Chair: Madame Bourgeois.

[Translation]

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: Mr. Chair, first I would like us to have a clear picture of the work of both subcommittees before we join them together in a single one before they work together. Then, since we are wondering whether the International trade department uses CIDA to promote foreign trade, I find a little risky the idea to automatically bring together these two subcommittees. On the other hand, it is possible, after the work of each subcommittee has been defined, to be in a position to stand pat so that the notion of one being the creature of the other, does not continue to exist in the public mind.

    Hon. Paddy Torsney: May I say something?

    The Chair: Certainly. I was told that we can present a motion suggesting that both subcommittees study one subject or the other. Would you like to reply?

[English]

    Hon. Paddy Torsney: I think the concerns that Madame Bourgeois raises of course are totally legitimate. The challenge, however, is the flip. For instance, CIDA has funding for the Trade Facilitation Office. The Trade Facilitation Office isn't about getting Canadian business into developing countries; it's about helping developing countries export to Canada. They work with Canadian companies to say to somebody in Ghana, “Look, here's what you need to do to make your product saleable on the Canadian market; here's where we can work together; here's what we're looking for.” That's just one example of where the opportunity to trade in Canada could create jobs for people in Ghana, which would help their situation.

    There is one case where you may want to do some type of joint meeting to ask what the other ways are that we could accelerate the opportunities for Canadians to work together—perhaps pursuing a third market. Or what are the ways in which we can help those countries break into the North American market? They want trade too. They don't just want money from us. They want job opportunities.They want to be considered.... They want opportunity. That's just one example off the top of my head where we might want to do a joint meeting to see if there wasn't something....

    The Chair: Sure.

    We have a point of information, please.

    Mr. James Lee: I just wanted to say that the government is soon to release its international policy review. I'm not exactly sure when, perhaps the end of November or early December. It may be that after the main committees decide what they're going to study and how, you might be able to decide an area that you want to study as a subcommittee that could complement what's being done in the other committees.

    We don't know what's in the paper yet. It hasn't come out. It may be clearer at that point what you could do to complement work of other committees.

    The Chair: Mr. Goldring.

    Mr. Peter Goldring: Following along what Paddy was saying, my understanding is that CIDA operates at a disconnect from trade and economic development for Canada, and that if they do work on projects.... For example, they were doing one project in the Caribbean where they were actually helping hotel owners and resort owners to better manage and better operate their businesses. The question comes up that there are a lot of Canadian operators who may want to enter that market and compete in that market, and why wouldn't we be giving the same kind of a balanced approach to them to encourage some Canadian business to develop there too, as well as giving some of this assistance?

    In other words, does CIDA, by its very nature, have to be disconnected from trade opportunities and economic opportunities in this country? Can they not do both things at the same time, relatively?

Á  (1130)  

    The Chair: We could get into a long discussion—

    Hon. Paddy Torsney: No, but that—

    The Chair: I suggest that we do that as we go down the road a bit.

    Madame Bourgeois.

[Translation]

    Ms. Diane Bourgeois: Mr. Chair, I would like to come back to what the researcher told us, namely that Canada was in the process of rethinking its policy on international aid. The Canadian Council for International Corporation involves over 100 agencies from Quebec and Canada interested in international cooperation, and these bodies have issued requests and findings. The more we talk about it, the more I realize that it might perhaps be important to respond to the requests of that agency. As a subcommittee we could assess whether it would be appropriate to have them appear, to get to know their requests and to see whether we could make a proposal to the main committee. In this way we would deal with foreign trade and international cooperation.

    According to the CCIC, CIDA is a creature working for international trade. It is all very well to be able to trade. However, since 1970, if my memory serves me right, several committees wondered about the real role played by CIDA , unable to find an answer. Mr. Kilgour, you may have more experience with regard to this matter. I think there is really some cleaning to be done. We might start by doing just that.

    The Chair: Thank you very much.

[English]

    I propose, since everybody has all sorts of things they want to look at, that people put down their ideas about what they think our priorities should be for say the next three to four months. Send them to everybody, please, and then we could discuss them at our next meeting. I hope we can then come up with some points of overlap and meaningful and productive things to do.

    Hon. Paddy Torsney: Can we send them to the chair rather than to each other?

    The Chair: Fine, if you'd like to.

    I've been reminded, everything is to go through the clerk.

    Mr. Pistor.

    Mr. Stephen Knowles: I have just a couple of points of clarification, if I can be of assistance, Mr. Chairman.

    Just for the information, Ms. Torsney, the subcommittees cannot sit, of course, at the same time as the main committee.

    Second, the main committee will be looking at a work plan for the next couple of months on Thursday. That may be of some relevance to what's happening here, and I will certainly ask the chair if that plan could be circulated to members of the subcommittee. That may help you in your work.

    Third, of course, you do not have an independent budget, Mr. Chairman, and bureaucracy run by the liaison committee and the board has closed in upon us. Once you decide on something, before you can spend any money, you'll have to do a budget. It will have to be approved by the main committee and then by the liaison committee. In the past, you could use the operational budget of the main committee; but the main committee now wants that operational budget for its own purposes.

    These points are just for information.

    Thank you.

    The Chair: That's what's called a bad-news announcement.

    Mr. Stephen Knowles: This is the last meeting I will attend, Mr. Chairman.

    Some hon. members: Oh, oh!

    The Chair: The meeting is adjourned.