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37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION
Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology
EVIDENCE
CONTENTS
Monday, February 16, 2004
| ¹ | 1535 |
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The Clerk of the Committee |
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Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, CPC) |
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The Clerk |
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Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve) |
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The Clerk |
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The Clerk |
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The Clerk |
| ¹ | 1540 |
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Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface) |
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Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Prince Edward—Hastings, Lib.) |
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The Clerk |
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Hon. Joe Fontana (London North Centre, Lib.) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Hon. Joe Fontana |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, CPC) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
| ¹ | 1545 |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Michel Guimond |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Michel Guimond |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte (Edmonton Southwest, CPC) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
| ¹ | 1550 |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Grant McNally |
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Hon. Joe Fontana |
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Mr. Grant McNally |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Ovid Jackson |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Ovid Jackson |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP) |
| ¹ | 1555 |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mrs. Carol Skelton (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, CPC) |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
| º | 1600 |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Hon. Joe Fontana |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
| º | 1605 |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Yvon Godin |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Hon. Lyle Vanclief |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Hon. Larry Bagnell |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
| º | 1610 |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Yvon Godin |
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Mr. Raymond Simard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Yvon Godin |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Ovid Jackson |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Grant McNally |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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Mr. Réal Ménard |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Hon. Joe Fontana |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
| º | 1615 |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mrs. Cheryl Gallant |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. James Rajotte |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Ovid Jackson |
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Mr. Yvon Godin |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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Mr. Yvon Godin |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
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The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings) |
CANADA
Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology |
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EVIDENCE
Monday, February 16, 2004
[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
¹ 
(1535)
[English]
The Clerk of the Committee: We can now proceed to the election of the chair. I will preside over the election.
[Translation]
Are there any nominations?
[English]
Mr. Bagnell.
Hon. Larry Bagnell (Yukon, Lib.): I nominate Brent St. Denis.
The Clerk: He is being replaced by Mr. Jackson. Are there any further nominations?
[Translation]
Are there any other nominations?
[English]
Mrs. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.): I move the nominations be closed.
(Motion agreed to)
[Translation]
The Clerk: The nominations are now closed. I declare Mr. St-Denis elected chair of the committee, in absentia.
Now, do you want us to elect the vice-chairs? Is the committee in agreement?
[English]
Is the committee in agreement to proceed to the election of vice-chairs?
Mr. Grant McNally (Dewdney—Alouette, CPC): I nominate Mr. Rajotte.
The Clerk: It is moved by Mr. McNally that Mr. Rajotte be nominated as opposition vice-chair.
Mr. Ménard.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard (Hochelaga—Maisonneuve): I think that Mr. Paul Crête, the Member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, has a non-confrontational personality, one that is conducive to consensus, and he could be an excellent vice-chair.
The Clerk: Moved by Mr. Ménard, that Mr. Crête be elected vice-chair for the opposition. Are there any other nominations?
Since there is more than one nomination,
[English]
we will have to proceed to a secret ballot, pursuant to Standing Order 106. My colleague, who is also a procedural clerk from the House, will assist me in distributing and collecting the ballots.
¹ (1535)
¹ (1536)
The Clerk: We have counted the ballots, and Mr. Rajotte is opposition vice-chair.
Some hon. members: Hear, hear.
[Translation]
The Clerk: We shall now proceed to the election of the vice-chair for the government side.
¹ (1540)
Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface): I would like to nominate Ms. Marlene Jennings, please.
[English]
Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Prince Edward—Hastings, Lib.): I second the motion.
[Translation]
The Clerk: Mr. Simard nominates Ms. Jennings as vice-chair. Are there any other nominations?
[English]
Are there other nominations for government vice-chair?
[Translation]
Ms. Jennings is elected.
[English]
At this point I invite the vice-chair to come to the table to preside over the rest of the meeting, as the chair is en route.
Hon. Joe Fontana (London North Centre, Lib.): Madam Chair, I suggest that you leave it as parliamentary secretary, because as you know, there is no parliamentary secretary per se for the Minister of Industry. As an example, I'm the parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister as it relates to science and technology and small business, and there is another parliamentary secretary for new entrepreneurs, which position is in fact within Industry. So I would suggest that for this purpose you just leave it as parliamentary secretary, or parliamentary secretaries.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): That's a very good point you raise. But in that case I would then suggest “one of the two parliamentary secretaries”.
Hon. Joe Fontana: Then I would put my name forward. Then you could say “Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister (Science and Small Business)”.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Is everyone--
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, CPC): May I suggest that to eliminate the confusion we just delete having the parliamentary secretary as part of this subcommittee altogether.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): No, I'd like to hear the other members on that.
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant: So we are going to have a debate, you're not just going to say no?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): No, I just said I'd like to hear the other members on that.
[Translation]
Mr. Ménard.
¹ (1545)
Mr. Réal Ménard: Thank you, Madam Chair, and congratulations.
Obviously, the situation has changed in one regard, as compared to the last time we had to strike steering committees. Currently, parliamentary secretaries—and this is nothing personal—are members of the Privy Council, are sworn in and occupy a new position in the parliamentary hierarchy. I think parliamentarians can give their all in parliamentary committees in a situation where there is as little interference as possible from the government. In light of their new functions, would it not be wise that we consider not appointing parliamentary secretaries to steering committees? This has nothing to do with the individuals in question; no one doubts that the individuals concerned may be very personable and very competent.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you, Mr. Ménard.
Mr. Jackson.
[English]
Mr. Ovid Jackson (Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.
Earlier today there was a debate in the House and the Speaker ruled, and although the Speaker doesn't speak for committees--committees are masters of their own rules and regulations--he said that the whole House voted that members of Parliament are members of these committees. If you look at the list, it was voted on in the House, and they have subcommittees and they have associate members. So we're trying to make up these rules as we go along.
Apparently, the parliamentary secretaries, although they have the Privy Council thing, are not ministers, and as such the Speaker said in looking at it that the parliamentary secretaries really don't have a lot of power. They're allowed to look at files belonging to the minister, or what have you. So in light of that discussion, I think that as this thing evolves it may change.
In my mind, when you start eliminating a lot of members of Parliament, then the committees are going to have problems working. So that's just my two bits, for what it's worth.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you, Mr. Jackson.
Monsieur Guimond.
[Translation]
Mr. Michel Guimond (Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans, BQ): Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to go back to the comment made by my colleague Mr. Fontana, because I may have misunderstood what he said in English. Mr. Fontana is the Parliamentary Secretary of the Prime Minister, for science and small business. Did he say that there was no parliamentary secretary for Industry? I have the list published in Hansard and it says here that Mr. Gurbax Malhi is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry. It seems to me that our colleague had said that there was no parliamentary secretary for Industry.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Even though Mr. Fontana may have said that, you have just corrected him. So the correction has been made, if there was a mistake on that point.
Mr. Michel Guimond: Does that enlighten Mr. Fontana?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): I think we will continue. We have a list that is getting longer. Mr. Guimond, if that is the only point you wanted to raise...
Mr. Michel Guimond: That's fine.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): ... I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Rajotte, then to Mr. Vanclief and Mr. McNally.
[English]
Mr. James Rajotte (Edmonton Southwest, CPC): Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like some clarification following Mr. Guimond's point. Mr. Malhi is the parliamentary secretary to the industry minister, so just for clarification, if this motion is approved, it will be Mr. Malhi who is on the subcommittee but not Mr. Fontana. Is that correct?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): May I say that it's actually this committee that will decide. I sit on other committees where on the steering committee the additional member is not from the government side, is just a regular Liberal member. So this committee will decide.
Mr. James Rajotte: I think my question is whether the parliamentary secretary referred to in this motion is Mr. Malhi.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): I'm reading exactly what you're reading, which says “The parliamentary secretary and a representative of the Conservative Party, the Bloc Québécois, and the New Democratic Party, in addition to the chairs and two vice-chairs”. It does not stipulate which parliamentary secretary. That's how it reads.
¹ (1550)
Mr. James Rajotte: I don't know if Mr. Fontana made a motion or if he wanted to be added to the subcommittee.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): I believe Mr. Fontana did in fact make a motion that it be amended to say the parliamentary secretary to the minister he represents, small business, etc., and then it will be up to the committee to determine if they wish that amendment. As it stands now, it just says “parliamentary secretary”, with no stipulation as to which parliamentary secretary.
There's Mr. Vanclief, Mr. McNally, and Madam Barnes.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief: Madam Chair, I must admit I'm somewhat confused, because I don't have the paper in front of me with the specific reference or title of the two parliamentary secretaries who are here on the committee. A member of the Bloc may very well have it, or the chair may have it, or the staff at the table. But I do want to say clearly that no matter what their titles are specifically, they both are very much involved in the work of this committee. I would suggest, if it is possible, that when it says “the parliamentary secretary”, maybe we could say “a parliamentary secretary”, if that doesn't create a problem, meaning that one or the other of those would be on the steering committee.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Mr. McNally, and then Monsieur Godin.
Mr. Grant McNally: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Just for further clarification, Mr. Fontana is one possible parliamentary secretary, and we have Mr. Malhi. Is there a third? Gar Knutson?
Hon. Joe Fontana: He's a minister.
Mr. Grant McNally: So we have two possible parliamentary secretaries.
My concern would be that for the sake of continuity generally in the subcommittee, you would want to have a fairly regular group of people setting the agenda. I don't know how that would work out between the two parliamentary secretaries, if one would do one meeting, and one would do the other, or however they would arrange it.
I would say, for the sake of the committee, that may cause some problems with continuity. As a committee we should perhaps decide who is going to sit on that committee, rather than fall into the trap later on of having some difficulties with continuity because of the overlapping responsibilities of the parliamentary secretaries.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): We do, in fact, have a proposal on the table, that of Mr. Fontana. It stipulates the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister (Science and Small Business).
I would suggest, given that there is this proposal, the committee may wish to vote on it, and then from there....
Mr. Ovid Jackson: I vote that the motion be put, Madam Chair.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): The amendment?
Mr. Ovid Jackson: The amendment, yes. You could read the amendment.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Just a moment, please. Could you clarify one thing?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Yes.
Mr. Réal Ménard: It is clear that there will be a parliamentary secretary who will sit on the steering committee. It remains to be determined whether it will be the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Industry or the parliamentary secretary to the Prime Minister, for science and small business.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): So, an amendment has already been moved: that the Chair, the two Vice-Chairs and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, Science and Small Business...
Mr. Réal Ménard: So, if we vote for Mr. Fontana's motion, the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Industry will not be a member of the steering committee, which seems somewhat paradoxical to me.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Yes, but that is a motion that Mr. ...
Mr. Réal Ménard: I see. We simply have to defeat it if we want it to be the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Industry. You are putting the motion to a vote, are you not?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): I am calling the vote on the motion.
Excuse me, Mr. Godin, you are correct. You have the floor.
Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): I have two comments to make.
Firstly, I think that is dead on. The new government's vision aims to give the committees more power, and I think that we are departing a great deal from that new philosophy of the new government. In several committees I sat on, the government members voted like the parliamentary secretary. I think that again today, we are giving the governing party more leverage, rather than giving parliamentarians the power to make decisions and make recommendations. Even if we can't say that he should not be there, it is the members from the government party... This really runs counter to what is being said in Parliament. One thing is being said in Parliament, and another thing is being done here.
I don't know if my colleagues agree with me and whether they believe like me that one thing is being said in Parliament, while here, the old ways persist... [Editor's Note: Inaudible] ...when we arrive here. I find it regrettable to see us going in that direction.
¹ (1555)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you. I'm calling the vote on the motion.
Mr. Réal Ménard: I request a recorded vote.
[English]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): It will be a recorded vote.
It is moved by Mr. Fontana that the chair, the two vice-chairs, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, (Science and Small Business), and a representative of the Conservative Party, the Bloc Québécois, and the New Democratic Party do compose the subcommittee on agenda and procedure.
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 8; nays 4)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Now we move to the main motion, recorded vote.
[Translation]
The amendment having carried, we are going to vote on the main motion, as amended.
[English]
Mrs. Skelton.
Mrs. Carol Skelton (Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, CPC): Nothing against Mr. Fontana, but I totally agree with my colleagues when they say that we shouldn't have the parliamentary secretary on this committee. The Prime Minister talks about the democratic deficit, and being masters of our own destiny and everything. I think we're walking away from that whole issue when we allow parliamentary secretaries to sit on committees. I fully believe that. The other day, at another committee I'm on, we did not allow parliamentary secretaries, and I think we should seriously look at that, as a committee.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: I did not understand the result of the vote, Madam Chair.
º (1600)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Eight members were in favour of the motion, four against.
[English]
So the amendment was carried.
Mr. Fontana.
Hon. Joe Fontana: Thank you, Madam Vice-Chair.
In the spirit of committees working together, it seems to me--and this is a steering committee, so it's only for the organizational purposes of getting meetings together and striking the agenda--that rather than looking at a parliamentary secretary as a negative in terms of the democratic deficit, or as intruding, it might be helpful for planning purposes that there be a member now of the Privy Council, or a parliamentary secretary, to assist the committee in terms of setting the agenda, to be helpful and not to be obstructionist and everything else.
So although the opposition seems to think that anybody associated with the parliamentary secretaries, as government, would be a negative, I'd like to tell you that in most cases they've been very helpful to the committees in doing some of their work.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you.
Can we first have the main motion actually moved? Then if people wish to speak to it...because at this point in time you haven't even allowed me to have it moved.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief: So moved, Madam Chair.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you. Mr. Vanclief has now moved that the main motion as amended be called. Is there discussion on the main motion?
Madam Gallant, Monsieur Ménard, and Monsieur Godin.
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant: Thank you, Madam Chair.
In the past, in this particular committee, considerable meetings were spent deciding what the agenda was going to be, what our areas of study were going to be. After several meetings we would have, through the parliamentary secretary, the minister dictate to us what we were going to talk about--after we had had considerable discussion on what the plan of business was going to be. It seems to me the whole quagmire we find ourselves in is due to a lack of oversight. To have true oversight over a ministry it has to be arm's length, and with the parliamentary secretary part of who is setting the agenda, we don't see that as being arm's length.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Monsieur Ménard.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Madam Chair, we understand that we have voted in favour of the motion to include the parliamentary secretary responsible for science and SMEs. We shall see whether we should include the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Industry. We must be aware of the fact that the parliamentary secretary is at the service of the minister and that we are not giving the committee more independence by having the parliamentary secretaries sit on the steering committee. It is normal that the parliamentary secretary speak in favour of government policies. Our colleague Mr. Fontana was talking about parliamentary secretaries as though they were free thinkers, with independent minds. I think that that is not exactly what their duties imply.
When certain issues are examined, it may be useful to have parliamentary secretaries come and express the government's point of view, especially on specialized matters. But the steering committee must rule on certain issues and remain independent, and it does not seem to be a good idea in that case. However, if we must choose one of the two parliamentary secretaries, it seems to me that logic would dictate that it should be the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Industry.
[English]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Merci, Monsieur Ménard.
Mr. Vanclief and then Monsieur Godin.
Hon. Lyle Vanclief: Madam Chair, according to the motions before us, if we look at the makeup of the steering committee, the concern that's raised about the possibility of the overpowering influence of a parliamentary secretary, whoever that might be.... Besides the parliamentary secretary, which is one person, you have two vice-chairs, you have a representative of the Conservative Party, a representative of the Bloc, and a representative of the New Democratic Party. Now, if my math is right, that total outnumbers the one parliamentary secretary.
I think the members who are raising a concern are underestimating the ability they have and they are underestimating their math. If they don't like what the parliamentary secretary is suggesting, it's very simple: the steering committee does something different. It's up to the parliamentary secretary to debate with them, to try to influence them as to why he or she, whoever the parliamentary secretary is, would like to do something else. So sheer numbers defeat the argument, quite frankly, Madam Chair, that some are putting forward in this committee.
I would suggest we get on. What's there is true democracy, so let's vote on the motion.
º (1605)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you, Mr. Vanclief.
Monsieur Godin.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin: Madam Chair, since we are talking about democracy, I would say that this is democracy in action: we are debating a motion. I think that in a democracy we can debate a motion. We should be able to do so freely and that is what we are doing right now. This has been recognized in the past. In the past, we sat on committees where the parliamentary secretary would arrive and cause certain members to change their opinion. That is how the government functions. This runs counter to what the new Prime Minister has said. He stated that he wanted to let parliamentarians work and think freely and make recommendations to the government. Of course, the government will make decisions in the end, but we should be able to study the issues and submit recommendations to the government, which will do what it wills with those recommendations subsequently, as it has a majority in the House of Commons. We want to give committees the power and the freedom to discuss matters freely.
Why are they offended and why are they saying that it is not democratic to want to exclude parliamentary secretaries from the steering committee? We want to give government members the possibility of expressing themselves freely. It isn't mandatory that what they have to say be repeated to the Prime Minister or the minister.
That is why I recommend that there be no parliamentary secretary on the steering committee.
[English]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Merci, Monsieur Godin.
Is there someone who proposes the vote?
Hon. Lyle Vanclief: I so move.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you.
Mr. Rajotte, your name wasn't put on the list. I apologize. Did you want to speak to this?
Mr. James Rajotte: In the spirit of consensus, perhaps I could offer a friendly amendment, if the other side is willing to accept this. We could just say—and procedurally this is probably incorrect—the chair; the two vice-chairs; and a representative of the Liberal Party, the Conservative Party, the Bloc Québécois, and the New Democratic Party. That way, if the government decides they want to send Mr. Fontana, that's their choice. If they want to send another member, that's their choice. I think it would help avoid the controversy.
An hon. member: We already decided that.
Mr. James Rajotte: I'm just trying to propose something that would resolve this issue. You don't want it, so I guess it's defeated. I will withdraw it.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you, Mr. Rajotte.
Mr. Bagnell had also put his name on the list to speak. Then we'll go to the vote.
Hon. Larry Bagnell: It makes sense to me that a lot of the business in committee involves reviewing legislation and other current items that are coming up through government. You would think the committee would want to know what was coming so that it could plan its agenda.
Thank you.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Mr. Vanclief has moved that we move to the vote.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Could you read it?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Certainly. The motion reads as follows: That the Chair, the two Vice-Chairs, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister, Science and Small Business, as well as a representative of the Conservative Party, the Bloc Québécois and the New Democratic Party do compose the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
[English]
(Motion agreed to)
º (1610)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): The next routine motion is that the committee retain the services of one or more analysts from the Library of Parliament as needed. Is there someone who proposes that?
Mr. Yvon Godin: I have a point of order. I think the parliamentary secretary should stay now.
Mr. Raymond Simard: I so move.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you.
(Motion agreed to)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): I would invite the researchers to please come to the table.
[Translation]
The next motion deals with receiving and publishing evidence in the absence of a quorum, and reads as follows: That the Chair be authorized to hold meetings to receive and publish evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that at least four members and the Chair are present, including a member of the opposition.
[English]
Mr. Yvon Godin: I so move.
(Motion agreed to)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): The next ones are on the time limit for witnesses's statements and questioning, payment of witnesses' travel and living expenses, the distribution of documents with translation, and working meals. If you're in agreement, we could do these at the same time.
Is there someone who would propose those four?
Mr. Ovid Jackson: I so move.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you, Mr. Jackson.
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): It is agreed.
We then have another routine motion:
[Translation]
staff attending in camera meetings and in camera meeting transcripts.
[English]
Is there someone who would move those?
Mr. McNally.
Mr. Grant McNally: I so move.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you, Mr. McNally.
(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): The next one is the notice of substantive motions. It has been pointed out that this particular amendment does not stipulate 48 hours' written notice.
Is there someone who wishes to propose that amendment?
Mr. James Rajotte: I propose that amendment.
[Translation]
Mr. Réal Ménard: Forty-eight or twenty-four hours?
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): I am not moving the motions. If you want me to discuss my experience, both at this committee during four and a half years and at other committees, I can do that, but I don't think it is up to me to decide. I am simply here to chair and to ensure that the committee functions properly. Someone suggested that we add the words “written” after the word “hours” in the third line. The motion would then read as follows: Except for amendments to bills, 48 hours' written notice be given before any substantive motion is considered by the Committee; and that the motion be filed with the Clerk of the Committee and circulated to members in both official languages.
[English]
(Amendment agreed to)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Are we now agreed on the main motion as amended?
(Motion as amended agreed to)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): The last motion is on the minister's presentation. Do I have a proposal?
Hon. Joe Fontana: I so move.
(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): All of you will have in your hands a notice of motion from Mr. Rajotte that two motions be added to the routine motions of the standing committee.
Is there a mover?
Mr. James Rajotte: I so move.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Is there any discussion?
Mr. James Rajotte: Just for clarification, Madam Chair, I have been advised that sometimes it is difficult to find a room because we only have two televised rooms. Is that correct?
º (1615)
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Yes, that's correct.
Mr. James Rajotte: I was advised to put in, “to appear at a televised meeting, if possible, of the committee,” and I accept that.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Could I benefit from the latitude of the committee, just in terms of the terminology? You might wish to say, “to appear at a meeting of the committee, televised if possible.” Otherwise it would appear that if there is no televised room, then you're not going to hear from the minister.
Mr. James Rajotte: That's fine, as long as the obvious preference is for a televised meeting.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Yes. It would be televised, if available.
Mr. James Rajotte: If at all possible.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Madam Gallant.
Mrs. Cheryl Gallant: Madam Chair, that means we are directing the clerk, as soon as we find out that a minister..., or after a report from the Auditor General comes out, to automatically apply to have the meeting televised, upon receiving word.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Yes, and if no rooms are available then another room would be booked, and the minister would come—but it would not be televised. Okay? Is there agreement?
The clerk has just pointed out that if this motion goes through and all other committees adopt similar motions, then there will definitely be a problem.
I think the committee has grown enough... that's why it says “where available”. If there is more than one committee that has the same motion and it invites a minister to come, then it will be first come, first served for the televised rooms.
Mr. James Rajotte: Mr. McNally has offered to bring his own camera.
Some hon. members: Oh, oh!
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): We'll take you up on that if the need perhaps arises.
Mr. Rajotte has proposed a friendly amendment to his own motion to appear at a meeting of the committee, televised where or when available.
How would you word that?
Mr. James Rajotte: At a meeting of the committee televised, if at all possible.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): All right.
Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Ovid Jackson: A quick word, Madam Chair. If the meeting's pretty hot, the media's going to be here anyway; you'll get your television. If you have something really cooking, they'll be here.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin: My asking a question isn't a problem... I simply want to...
[English]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Thank you.
Monsieur Godin.
[Translation]
Mr. Yvon Godin: If we use the “when available” formulation, one or two weeks may go by. I simply want to ensure that the motion be read again because the last words I heard you say Madam Chair were “when available”, in other words, when they will become available. If there is a two- or three-week delay, the topic will no longer be timely.
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): Would you prefer the following wording:
[English]
“to appear at a meeting of the committee, televised, if possible”? Agreed?
Some hon. members: Agreed.
(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Marlene Jennings): There being nothing else on the agenda, I will adjourn the meeting. Before I do, I want to thank everyone for your cooperation and to congratulate again the vice-chair, Mr. Rajotte.
Thank you.