HERI Committee Meeting

STANDING COMMITTEE ON CANADIAN HERITAGE

COMITÉ PERMANENT DU PATRIMOINE CANADIEN

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Tuesday, February 8, 2000

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[Translation]

The Chair (Mr. Clifford Lincoln (Lac-Saint-Louis, Lib.)): The meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage is now open, and today we will hear the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport, the Honourable Denis Coderre.

As you know, this meeting was to have been held before the House rose in December. Unfortunately, we were not able to meet; it is now February and this is the first opportunity that we have had. Today I am pleased to welcome the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport. I will now recognize the Honourable Denis Coderre.

Hon. Denis Coderre (Secretary of State (Amateur Sport)): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all I would like to thank you personally. Some years ago, you had enough vision to agree to the creation of a sub- committee on Canadian Heritage, which is known today as the Mills Commission. I will say a few words about Dennis a little later. This sub-committee allowed amateur sport to have a voice in Canada. I believe that you are partly responsible for the decision made by the Prime Minister last August 3rd to appoint a Secretary of State for Amateur Sport. Your leadership and that of the members of this committee have ensured the promotion of a sports policy and has made amateur sports a priority.

Secondly, if I may, I would like to say a special hello to my good friend Dennis Mills, who did a terrific job on the commission that was responsible for the report. Along with other committee members who are here today, Mr. Mark, Mr. Solomon, Ms. St-Hilaire, he undertook a study that satisfied an urgent need in this country.

[English]

Amateur sport is a matter of quality of life. Amateur sport is a matter of culture. It's a matter of our own identity. Since we are in an Olympic year, it's appropriate that together we should focus and manage a national sports policy.

[Translation]

Before going any further, I would like to introduce the people who are with me today: Mr. Norman Moyer, Assistant Deputy Minister, responsible for sport in our department, Mr. Dan Smith, Director General of Sports Canada, as well as Ms. Sue Neill, who is in charge of programs, and Mr. Roger Ouellette, who is responsible for national sports organizations.

Today we intend to quickly examine what our department does and consider collectively what we intend to do in the coming months and years. Of course, I have a short, medium and long term vision. There is an urgent need to settle some issues. Amateur sport in Canada must be completely overhauled. I will give you a quick idea of what I intend to do over the next two years.

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I would also like to point out that over the past six or seven months, my main priority has been to work with those who are involved in sports. My main responsibility is to ensure that I can truly represent the sporting world. Of course, I took the opportunity to meet a great number of Canadians. I also managed to attend some 40 events, which allowed me to get a feel for what the people think.

The presentation should last about 15 minutes; I will then be happy to answer your questions. Since we have a heavy schedule, I will have to leave at noon, Mr. Chairman. I would be happy to come back if I'm invited to do so.

In the present context, what is our mission? Our mission is of course to talk about excellence in sports, to talk about the Canadian sports system, and also to work in a context that relates to the identity, to talk about culture, because sport and culture go hand in hand, and of course to talk about the Canadian society. How will sports fit into our Canadian society?

I feel that these five themes clearly define the whole aspect of amateur sport within the Department of Canadian Heritage.

I would like to quote a few figures. First of all, you know full well that sport and culture, as I said earlier, go hand in hand. A survey that I commissioned in Quebec, and that will be repeated in the rest of Canada, found that 90% of people said that sport was related to culture in Canada.

You know that more than 9.6 million Canadians take part in amateur sport.

[English]

Fully 87% of the people feel we should finance more amateur sport, and 78% say it reduces the crime rate. So it's very important to notice here that sport has an impact at every level. It's a matter of quality of life. Finally, 80% of the people feel there's a direct link with health benefits.

[Translation]

In my opinion, amateur sport represents an investment and not an expenditure. If we were to increase by 10% the number of Canadians actively involved in sports, we could save up to $5 billion a year in health care costs.

With respect to crime, the figures that came out of the Mills report show that 92% of young girls involved in sport will never become delinquents. Sport has a direct impact on one's quality of life.

Of course, well beyond figures and statistics, what is most important are the following determinants, that have a definite impact on our Canadian mosaic.

Of course, our Canadian identity is important. When we participate in an event, whatever it might be, when we take part in an international junior hockey tournament, when we take part in the Olympics, in the Canada Games, in the Commonwealth Games, we see that there is a direct impact on our own identity. Amateur sport represents our very roots.

We must also consider the development of our youth. When we talk about quality of life, we can consider the development of young people, of the relationship between our social fabric and our health.

If I may, I would like to say a few words about economic growth. Amateur sport represents 378,000 jobs in Canada. Its economic impact is considerable.

[English]

We're talking about $8 billion of economic impact. So sport means also business. Sport is health, culture, and business.

[Translation]

However, let us look at the present context. I have often said that amateur sport in Canada is everybody's business. We must actively seek to build bridges between the number of levels. At Sport Canada, we talk about high performance, but we mustn't forget that high-level athletes were once part of a larger group. It is essential, when we want to promote a national policy on amateur sport, to establish a bridge between sports for the masses and high performance sports. We must end these quarrels which, to my mind, are useless, and work alongside the various levels of government so that together we can find a common thread that will allow us to harmoniously devise a true national sport policy.

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The responsibility for developing a sport system in Canada is shared amongst various levels and based on a partnership. If, at the federal level, we deal with elite national or international calibre athletes, at the provincial level, we must also deal with school networks and activities of a regional or provincial nature. But I'm sure you will agree that even if we add a municipal level for local sports, we must establish this partnership in order to have a valid process that will directly impact upon our athletes. There are numerous examples of partnerships that show that this can work.

[English]

Let's talk about the Canada Games. Let's talk about those national centres of sports, certification for trainers, and what's going on through the athletes' program. We can work together. I've just been to a federal-provincial conference with my provincial colleagues, and if people realize that national for me means harmonization, there shouldn't be any flag war. It's important that together we find ways to understand each other. That's the reason a little bit later I'll tell you what my strategy is on that level.

[Translation]

So what is the role of Sport Canada? Sport Canada must support the high-level athletes and coaches. We must ensure that we can build a Canadian sport system.

[English]

We have to promote sports and try to ameliorate access and equity. Amateur sport means equity. It means we should bring back more women in sport, that we should take about integration, talk about the disabled. We have to find ways to make sure everybody will have fair access.

[Translation]

Of course, you already know how I feel about bilingualism. To my mind, it is not only essential that sport correct some deficiencies, but also that the national policy ensure linguistic fairness.

Mr. Chairman, there are many programs within Sport Canada. There are the national single sport organizations. The Canadian government, through Sport Canada, already funds almost 43 of these national sports bodies. There are also multi-sport and multi- service organizations. For example, the Canada Games Council, or the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport. There is also the matter of the help given to athletes, the National Sports Centre, induction and sports of national interest.

So, what strategic position will I adopt?

[English]

I'm not here to reinvent the wheel. Basically I'm here for one purpose: to make sure I'll follow up on the Mills report.

If we're saying sport is everybody's business, there are three main principles we'll have to put forward: leadership, partnership, and accountability. Of course you notice that for the last six months, we've put forward passionately sport as a priority.

[Translation]

I hope, in all humility, that I have managed to show you how totally devoted I am to sport. Integration, responsibility, accountability, are my watchwords.

[English]

We have to do something about it. Not only should we provide services to organizations, but they'll have to, in return, be more accountable. That's the reason I'm putting up a new funding framework, to make sure accountability will be also the name of the game. It's not a matter of saying we should invest more in organizations; we have also to make sure they are accountable to their own people: less structure, more money for sports, and more money for athletes.

[Translation]

As I said earlier, the matter of official languages is of concern to me. However, following meetings held with all of the national organizations and Canadian federations, I have reason to believe that specific things will be done in that area.

Finally, I would like to say a few words about values. In the world of sport, we must not only deal with direct aid, but we must also consider values. It's for this reason that I'm extremely proud to see that, since 1983 and even more so since 1988, Canada has been a leader in anti-doping.

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I would like to announce that there will be a conference in Montreal next February 16th to 18th. Already, more than 26 countries have agreed to take part to help us ensure that we can assume our responsibilities and our leadership within the World Anti-Doping Agency, whose first meeting was held in January in Lausanne.

We have a great deal of work to do. As you know, there are problems with mediation and arbitration, involving the re-balancing of athletes' rights and the importance of the federation. For this reason, I have already brought together a task force with the purpose of creating an integrated and independent mediation and arbitration system.

Secondly, I intend to set up a consultative network in each of the provinces.

[English]

So I'll have an advisory board, but not a new structure. People in every province will be there to give me a good hand to make sure it will contribute to defining a new environment to have a better sports policy.

[Translation]

Now, what are the issues? Within the next two years, we will have a new Physical Fitness and Amateur Sport Act. We will have to review issues of funding, including the Games and performance. We will have to implement a new funding framework for national sports organizations. I intend to increase federal, provincial and territorial co-operation. I want to ensure a follow-up to the International Summit on Drugs in Sport; as you know, Canada is promoting Montreal as headquarters for the World Anti-Doping Agency and, since sport and science go hand in hand, we hope to establish a national network for sports science within the universities.

This will all be done within the context of regional conferences: one for the Atlantic region, one for Quebec, one for Ontario, one or maybe even two for the Prairie provinces, one in Victoria for British Columbia and finally, one for the territories.

Then we will hold a national summit chaired by our Prime Minister. This will allow us to demonstrate not only our willingness to assume our leadership, but also our hope to work in harmony, since the new Canadian amateur sport policy will be based on recommendations made during these conferences. This doesn't mean that we will be assuming anyone else's responsibilities, but rather we will be determining once and for all what the right and left hands are doing.

Thank you. I'm now ready for your questions.

[English]

Thank you very much.

[Translation]

The Chair: Thank you, Secretary of State. I will begin the discussion, but I would first like to remind you of something.

[English]

We had agreed that there would be two opposition speakers, two Liberals, back to two opposition, and then the floor would be open to members individually.

Mr. Mark.

Mr. Inky Mark (Dauphin—Swan River, Ref.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First let me welcome our secretary of state for sports. It's good to see you here. Having been a member of this committee, it's good to see you at the other end.

I certainly believe in amateur sports. I'm still disappointed that the media spend so much time promoting professional sports and ignoring the Mills report and all the things that make this country great about amateur sports.

In fact two days ago, this past Saturday, I had the honour, with Nancy Greene, Canada's athlete of the century, of officially opening a ski hill and winter park in my riding of Dauphin—Swan River, a place called Asessippi Ski Resort. I know she is certainly enthusiastic about amateur sports. Because of Nancy Greene, kids learn to ski, and many of them get to represent this country. She is as enthusiastic today as she was when she first put Canada on the map.

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I have three short questions. The first one relates to the Olympic athletes, the stories we've heard over the past summer. What is being done to make sure that Canadian athletes remain in Canada?

Secondly, what is being done about increasing money for amateur sports? Certainly there is a pretty broad area in which we could fund them, according to the Mills report.

Third, with the new infrastructure program that's currently been announced by the finance minister, will there be any room for infrastructure development in the area of amateur sports infrastructure?

Mr. Denis Coderre: Well, first let me excuse myself. I've been to Brandon, and I should have passed to Dauphin too. Next time I'll pass by to your place.

We have to be careful here when we're talking about the Olympic athletes. Of course we do everything in our power to make them remain in Canada. There are some who are leaving, but there a lot also who are coming to our country.

The problem we have depends on how we define help for amateur athletes. First of all, of course, if you take Great Britain, they're employees of the state, so they're giving them a salary.

The Canadian government, through Sports Canada, gives support to athletes. Now, of course there are a lot of people who will say it's not enough and we should do better. I agree with that. So help me to help you.

When we're talking to Canadians, they're saying that the thing we should do is lower taxes, pay the debt, invest more in health care and education. So if we believe that there is a direct link with health care and education, maybe.... It's not a partisan issue here. I think amateur sport should be a priority to all and we should all sing the same tune. It's important to put the pressure to have more money for them. Our budget is $60 million right now, more or less.

About infrastructure, well of course I'm an advocate for new sports facilities. You can do that through two things. First of all, if we get involved in some bids for some games—Commonwealth Games, the Canada Games, for example.... Every time there is a Canada Games the Canadian government is putting some money there. But if there is a new infrastructure program, the message we should deliver is that if there is money for infrastructure we should include also in the criteria that municipalities would be able also to put some projects for sports facilities.

The Chair: Do you have a short question, Mr. Breitkreuz, or do you want to wait until later?

Mr. Cliff Breitkreuz (Yellowhead, Ref.): A short question?

The Chair: Yes.

Mr. Cliff Breitkreuz: I'll take a little time now, if that's okay.

The Chair: All right.

Mr. Cliff Breitkreuz: Thanks a lot.

Mr. Secretary of State, it's good to see you here, and it's good to see that you have assumed the counsellor of grief for distraught ministers of the Liberal government. Certainly it might be needed, that's for sure.

I'm interested as to how committed you are to amateur sports. As has been mentioned, it's a major cultural thing right across the country, and it's a year-round phenomenon in this country as well, where there are millions of people—not only kids, students, but adults as well—who are involved in amateur sports.

When you make this statement and make language an issue in amateur sports by saying that funding will be cut off if both languages.... That's what's quoted in the Calgary Herald last fall. You make language an issue in amateur sports and you threaten that you will cut funding to those cities that do not provide both languages. And except for Montreal, none of the Olympic centres across the country are bilingual cities.

There was an outcry, of course, especially from Calgary, when the announcement was made there, that funding has been cut back already in amateur sports, and on top of that you're going to cut back more if language compliance isn't there. I'd like to hear your reaction to that.

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Mr. Denis Coderre: First of all, I'm very happy to meet you today. It seems like the good old days when I was vice-chair of the official languages committee.

Voices: Oh, oh!

Mr. Denis Coderre: So I won't repeat everything from when I was referring to Jurassic Park. I won't talk about that today.

One thing is clear. I'm not a second-class citizen. Neither are all my French Canadian people. When we're talking about accountability, that's the reason I've been travelling all over this country. All over this country, I have the support of the sports community.

I just came back from a trip to western Canada. I've been to Calgary. I met people from CODA. I met Diane Jones, who you referred to, who said she was misquoted, because she agrees that we should give some services also in French.

It's important that if sport is a matter of identity, if you carry the flag, you have to carry the values attached to it. Through the next funding framework, people will have to be serious about it. It's important for our kids; it's important for our own message that we want to deliver to the world. There are two official languages in this country, and the athlete is pretty pleased to see we can work together.

I'm here to build bridges. I'm here to make sure we'll have new tools to work with. But this secretary of state is very, very serious about the bilingualism issue.

[Translation]

The Chair: Ms. St-Hilaire.

Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire (Longueil, BQ): I would like to thank the Secretary of State for amateur sport. He will certainly understand what I have to say because his appearance today reminds me of a Stanley Cup playoff game.

We don't share the same political opinions—

A Voice: [Editor's note: Inaudible]

Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire: It's four out of seven.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Okay.

Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire: Mr. Coderre and myself probably do not share the same political objectives. However, I would like to congratulate him for his interest. He seems to be truly committed to the interests of amateur sport and especially the interests of the athletes.

I'm a little ill-at-ease today. In the last two years, but especially last year with the tabling of the Mills report, specific recommendations and statements were made, mostly by yourself, to the effect that our athletes live beneath the poverty line. However, Mr. Manley recently announced that he was willing to spend millions of dollars to support professional athletes and you were pleased with this announcement. Given Mr. Manley's change of heart, I wonder if you asked Cabinet for that money to spend on amateur sport. That is my first question.

I know that you are working very hard on the anti-doping front. But in Quebec there is an institute called the Institut national de la recherche scientifique. This organization needs money but receives less every year. If we want the International Anti-Doping Agency's headquarters in Montreal despite the fact that Quebec already has an institute which does good work, the Canadian government should prove it supports its home-grown organization by increasing its subsidies and not the opposite. Those are my two questions. I'll come back during the second round.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Thank you, Ms. St-Hilaire.

First, I'd like to say that I'm one of those people who feel that we can chew gum and walk at the same time. By that I mean that I can have specific positions and support my colleagues, while not losing sight of the fact, and I hope you agree, that I feel passionate about amateur sport and that I am totally devoted to it. Yes, I did ask for support.

While recognizing that Ms. Copps accomplished some extraordinary things in that area, I must say that the decision of the Prime Minister to increase the profile of sport was his way of acknowledging the Mills report.

Yes, there is a lack of money. Yes, there are athletes who don't have enough money. Yes, I will do my best to help them. However, it's not just a matter of simply asking for more money. We have to make sure that the money we have is well spent. That's why I am conducting an in-depth study in co-operation with my officials and the sports community. You yourself realize just how involved I am with the sporting community. I work with athletes and for them. We must restructure sport in Canada and the issue of accountability—that is, how money is spent—must, in my view, become a priority.

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Of course, the area of anti-doping has suffered cutbacks. In the last six years, our government had to bring down the deficit. We had to make some tough decisions, but the way I have tackled anti-doping issues proves that it is a priority for us. I know Christiane Ayotte well. I work with her and she does an excellent job. You know that we are funding the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport, which received nearly $1.9 million. The INRS has already received $700,000. I've been told that the numbers check out, so it is obvious that we take the issue of drugs in sports seriously.

Furthermore, if Canada does get the International Anti-Doping Agency, it will do more for us than increase our credibility. I want to create a strategy which will promote a nation-wide scientific network. I've seen the work being done in anti-doping at the University of Calgary and the University of Manitoba. We could rely on some programs, including university departments and the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. The fact that we have someone who can dedicate all his attention to amateur sport, which, incidentally, affects 14 departments, can bring it all together. I will also consult with my colleagues to find the answers to your questions.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Mills.

Mr. Dennis J. Mills (Broadview—Greenwood, Lib.): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I celebrate your position being responsible for amateur sport in this country, and I know your passion and your organizational skills will change the face of sport in this nation.

During your presentation today, you touched upon what I consider the hidden jewel within the report we all worked on over the last year and a half. That jewel is the linkage between fitness and our health care system. We had experts in front of our committee from the Department of Health who told us if we could move, on a voluntary basis, the will of this nation from 39% currently physically active up to 49% or 50%, we could have downward pressure on our health care system of almost $5 billion a year. You touched on that in your presentation.

What I need to know from you, Minister, is what you are going to do to mobilize the will of the nation to get everyone in this country fit, physically active, so that we can deal with that number one challenge we have, namely our health care crisis.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Dennis, thank you very much for the question.

One of my main goals is to make sure that when we're sitting at cabinet, we bring to the attention of cabinet that amateur sport is a solution to some of our problems. Of course I've met several times with our Minister of Health, and we agreed together to have an interdepartmental discussion to see if there is a way to bring back some education program to push for amateur sports in the context that it's an investment and it will have a direct impact on health care.

We all know there are some problems. For kids, for example, you have a difference between 1980 and 1999. You have 20% more people who are not doing any sports now, in the range of 12 to 17 years old. That will have an impact in the next 40 years. It will be disastrous for health care.

That's why the timing is great, the timing is right. What we have to do now is focus and make sure that through the health care system and through the fitness program—and my colleague, Allan Rock, is in charge—we find those kinds of programs.

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Also, regarding my own people from Sports Canada and with the athletes and with the coaches and with the NSOs, the national sport organizations, we have to make sure that when we're focusing and when we're talking about disability, we have some strategy attached to it. That's why I say it's not only a matter of money; amateur sport is a matter of values.

So we have to make sure that in our future national sports policy, those values, with the programs I intend to put forward, will be also a part of the deal.

Thank you.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Mills.

Monsieur St-Julien.

[Translation]

Mr. Guy St-Julien (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, it's quite an honour to have you before the committee.

I have two questions, Mr. Chairman. The first deals with the one recommendation which, of the 69 which were made, was accepted. It may have been supported because back home on a Saturday night, hockey players chase after a puck. However, in Abitibi and Témiscamingue, people chase after jobs on Saturday night.

Then there are the other 68 recommendations. You probably know that the riding I represent is the biggest one in all of the 10 Canadian provinces; it covers 802,000 square kilometres. Mr. Chairman, Ottawa never thinks about the far-off regions in Quebec or rural areas. Everything is focussed on major urban centres, such as Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver and others. Quebec's far-off regions are forgotten.

You prioritized the 68 remaining recommendations. I would like to draw your attention to regional programs which support our amateur sports, be it the Abitibi-Témiscamingue athletes fund, the Abitibi-Témiscamingue recreational fund or sporting events. I have some companies in my riding which would like businesses who have long supported regional sports to get a tax break. They want to know if it is coming. They want to know if more businesses will qualify so they can support amateur sport in our area.

We don't expect anything from major urban areas. We don't have an olympic infrastructure like every major city. We have to fight for what we need.

That was my first question.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Thank you, Mr. St-Julien. Let me first say that of the 69 recommendations contained in the Mills report, 54 have been implemented. Some things don't require more money but rather political will. We are paying attention to those issues. As for the others, obviously... You could say there was a 55th one. Indeed, we had asked that sport be given a higher profile, and the Prime Minister responded by appointing a Secretary of State for amateur sport.

I obviously want to focus more on sports and tax breaks. However, as I said in response to a question raised by my colleague Inky Mark a little while ago, we have to prepare Canadians for this; we have to be attuned to public opinion.

Last week, there was a federal-provincial conference. My provincial colleagues are also concerned with harmonious policies of regional development and sports. There should be some regional conferences as well as a national summit, and we will probably address this issue, as well as deciding on a strategy.

We won't ask ourselves what the problem is at the national conference. I think Quebec already has its framework for action and has already studied the matter. The Mills report was very clear and shed a little light on the state of amateur sport.

[English]

We know what the problem is. So the name of the game is not what is the problem, but what are you prepared to do?

[Translation]

We shouldn't ask ourselves what the problem is, but rather focus on what each and everyone of us is willing to do to help solve it.

I have visited several cities, but I've also been to outlying areas, since I believe in what I do. When I went to Brandon, it was the first time since 1978 that a Sports minister visited Brandon University.

The messenger is also the message. It's important to visit smaller centres. I visited many areas in the province. I met with municipalities and local clubs to find out what they think about a sports policy. I was in Lévis barely two weeks ago. I'm going to Quebec and I was in Sherbrooke. I will soon visit your area.

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So we want to show the Canadian public that we are not only concentrating on Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. That's what I meant when I was talking about the integration of amateur sports. We need a regional sports policy.

The Chair: You will have to wait for the next round, Mr. St-Julien.

[English]

Mr. Solomon.

Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Minister. I'd like to take this opportunity to invite you to visit Saskatchewan, because—

Mr. Denis Coderre: Done.

Mr. John Solomon: Pardon me?

Mr. Denis Coderre: I spoke to the provincial minister.

Mr. John Solomon: Oh, you have...?

Mr. Denis Coderre: I'll be there in March.

Mr. John Solomon: Excellent. I'll look forward to your visit.

You mentioned in your presentation that your objective is to ensure—and I quote—that “everybody will have fair access” to sport. I agree with that. I support that wholeheartedly.

One of the biggest hurdles to accessibility, in my view, is poverty. I think that's why we're seeing the decline in involvement in sport; it's becoming more expensive at the amateur level. In Saskatchewan we're very concerned about it because of the farm crisis that we're experiencing; it's a very difficult economic time. Parents I talk to about sport.... I've been involved for 40 years now as a participant and as an elected official—I haven't been elected that long, just for the record—and parents' primary worry is access. Their kids cannot participate in sport because their parents either aren't working or have incomes that are so modest they can't afford these extracurricular activities.

I have two questions, one dealing with this issue. Because of this decline, this pressure, and I think our collective interest in seeing more accessibility, are you promoting to have in the budget some sort of program to address this?

I agree with Mr. Mills that in terms of the health situation it's important to have more people involved, because wellness is going to be one of the solutions to our crisis, in my view. Wellness, of course, is living a healthy life: getting exercise as well as having a decent diet.

For example, would you be promoting, as the Mills report suggested, tax credits for families who put their children in sports as well as for infrastructure with respect to assisting municipalities and others to build recreational facilities that can be used by everybody?

That's my first question. I have one more after that, Mr. Chair.

The Chair: Why don't you ask your other question quickly?

Mr. John Solomon: My other question relates to the NHL bailout. This was something I inserted in the Mills report as a minority report; that is, we, as the New Democratic Party, would not accept any additional support for millionaire hockey players. As you would know, Mr. Coderre, in the last Liberal budget the Liberals provided a tax break of $7,000 for every million dollars earned in this country. Hockey players average $1.8 million in earnings, so we gave the hockey players almost $15,000 in tax breaks for the 1999 tax year.

So because we're very worried about other issues—you mentioned health care, and of course amateur sport, and the farm crisis in western Canada—I'd like to know, and I think Canadians would like to know as well, what your involvement was in the decision to announce the bailout for the NHL. Because you're minister for sport, it would be logical that you, as opposed to the Minister of Industry, would do this. I'm curious to hear about what your involvement was and where you stand on that issue.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I'm a pretty public person, so you know exactly what I did.

What we have to find out.... And that's the reason why, in recommendation 67, when we were talking about professional sports, we have to find a way to build bridges and build links, because my strategy with professional sports is to make sure that those people eventually, if there's any help—but forget about it, there won't be any help—invest more in amateur sport.

Mr. John Solomon: Absolutely.

Mr. Denis Coderre: If we're not doing that, well.... If I want to put forward an anti-doping policy, if we see some professional sports in the Olympics, if we want to make sure that we have a drug-free sport, we need a coherent strategy, from the pros and from the amateurs. I think that's point number one. But it's out. They pulled the plug. We won't talk about it.

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Access: it's not because I'm a boxer that I'm going to give you a little upper cut, but I never have any questions—except for a couple from Madame St-Hilaire—from the opposition about amateur sports. You should ask questions to the Minister of Finance. Why? You have your priorities, and I respect that—it's okay. But if it is a real priority, we should ask ourselves, making sure that it's not a partisan issue, what we are prepared to do about it.

For the last six months I've been all over this country. We met the media all over the place. We're promoting more access. If we have a new infrastructure program, as I said to Inky, I think we should also relate it to sports facilities. It is a way to answer your question.

Secondly, through Canada Games, look at what happened in Brandon and in Chicoutimi and at what will happen in Campbellton. We will have some new facilities; it will be helpful for the kids to have some opportunities through sports development. That's the reason I want to make a new funding framework. I want to make sure that if we invest, we invest more in sports development, more in athletes. But when we're talking about sports development, of course, if we have those regional conferences and the national summit, and if we have everybody at the same table, what I'm saying is, what are you prepared to do about it? Well, yes, I think accessibility should be a priority.

I had lunch in Manitoba three weeks ago, in the Winnipeg area, with community centre leaders. We have to talk more together, and I have to find ways. At the same table, there was a municipal councillor who agreed. The more we promote it, the more we talk about it, the more it will become a priority, the more it will become a reflex in our party, in our government, and in your party. So every time we talk about solutions, amateur sports will come out.

Mr. John Solomon: Tax fairness, tax breaks—

Mr. Denis Coderre: As I said to Mr. St-Julien, during the regional conference I think we should also put the emphasis on and discuss among ourselves the tax reform for sports, but I would remind you again that in terms of the priorities—and we have all the polls and everybody is saying that, and I agree with it and I understand it—when we're talking about priorities, they're talking about cutting taxes, they're talking about paying the debt, and they're talking about investing more in health care and education. You never heard about tax credits for parents.

I'm a promoter. I'm a secretary of state. I don't have a wallet. I have a big mouth and I can talk about this, but help me to help you.

Mr. John Solomon: Not a big mouth, but a strong voice.

The Chair: The minister told me that he had to leave at 12 o'clock. I have a long list of names, so in interest of fairness to everybody, if you could....

[Translation]

Mr. St-Julien, you wanted to know if you could ask another question. I'm saying that the Minister must leave at noon. Many members want to ask questions. I would ask you to be brief so that everyone can have their turn. That's why we're here. I have Mr. Wilfert, Ms. St-Hilaire, Mr. Mark, Mr. Shepherd and Mr. St-Julien on my list.

[English]

I don't know how we divide the pie. Maybe the minister can stay another five minutes.

Mr. Denis Coderre: The answers will be short.

The Chair: All right.

Mr. Wilfert.

Mr. Bryon Wilfert (Oak Ridges, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, you made the point about 80% of Canadians looking at the health benefits of sports. The area I have been involved in for many years—and still am—is the Canadian Parks and Recreation Association, both as a past-president and now as the honorary president.

Organizations like the Canadian Parks and Recreation Association have a very strong grassroots organization, and they have had some dealings with both Health Canada and Sports Canada. I think it is critical that whether the issue is harassment in sports, which they have developed a policy on, or wellness programs, we engage more actively and more consistently in the grassroots organizations in this country, to help achieve the comment that you made with regard to the 80%. It reminds me of that commercial on the oil filter: you can pay me now or you can pay me later. I would rather pay me now in terms of making sure that we engage those grassroots, those people who deal with recreation and sports at the local level.

• 1155

You have 69 recommendations from the Mills report. I won't ask you to go into them now, but I'd be curious to know how you're going to track and hopefully implement many of those key recommendations.

Finally, I would just like to say that because you're talking about bridges and links, and I think they're important, I would echo my friend across the way here. In terms of a national infrastructure program, when you build a road, it makes sense to be putting bike paths along the sides of it. When you are dealing with facilities in recreation, they again have to be generated from the municipal order of government, but I think it is extremely important that we make sure the program includes recreational sports facilities if we are going to achieve the kinds of results we want in terms of raising the health standards or the physical standards of Canadians across this country.

I know you have a big challenge ahead of you, but I know this committee is prepared to work with you.

The Chair: Mr. Coderre.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Well, Bryon, first of all, I agree with what you were mentioning, so I can cut fifteen minutes there.

How am I going to track those recommendations? Well, I think it's day-to-day work. It's a matter of will. A lot of those recommendations are a matter of building bridges, working with the sports community, and learning from each other. During all these processes, or for a regional conference, every time I have a meeting with them we're talking about those things, so I feel pretty comfortable that we will have a good batting average for those recommendations.

On the other things, like the tax reform and things like that, it's a matter of strategy and it's everybody's business. Everybody has a share to do, and I'm willing to listen to and work with this committee and with anybody who wants to promote amateur sports.

[Translation]

The Chair: Ms. St-Hilaire.

Ms. Caroline St-Hilaire: I would like to remind the Minister that we had asked for the creation of a sub-committee on sports. Since the Minister must leave soon, perhaps we can invite him to appear before the committee again despite his heavy schedule.

I want to make sure I understood something. You have asked us to help the Minister of Finance. Mr. Martin may need our help in order to get more money for amateur sports. I want to make sure that's right.

I would also like to clarify something else. I accidentally turned on the canal Évasion channel and I saw you in a commercial. Do you do so in the interest of amateur sport or did you want to start another flag war? Was it propaganda on behalf of the Canadian government? How much did the commercial cost? You keep on saying that one day there will be a national sports policy, but as you said at the beginning, this is an olympic year and our athletes need money. The idea of having a national policy one day is very interesting, but I think athletes need help now, since it seems there was money available for professional sports. All you talk about is “some day”, when our athletes need help now. I don't understand.

Mr. Denis Coderre: What I find unfortunate, Ms. St-Hilaire, is that your own leader won't let you ask any relevant questions, since the priority of the Bloc Québécois is strictly to promote the separation of Quebec. When I meet with members of Quebec's sporting community, they understand that I am serious and that I work extremely hard for them. If you want to play that game, fine, but let me tell you that for the last seven months I have been reviewing every aspect of amateur sport. I'm sorry to say this, but I get the feeling that this is not your priority.

Second, regarding the canal Évasion channel, the commercial was free; it didn't cost anything. I will take every opportunity to promote amateur sport, because amateur sports equal good economics. When people get together to create specific program events, we tell them to think of recreational tourism; we remind them that sport is important and that it greatly benefits communities.

Ms. St-Hilaire, I am very disappointed that you are playing politics on the backs of our athletes. They don't deserve that.

[English]

An hon. member: Bravo!

The Chair: Mr. Shepherd.

Mr. Alex Shepherd (Durham, Lib.): Thank you.

• 1200

I'll make my question very succinct. You talked in your opening remarks about more flexibility and less structure. At the same time, you talked about more accountability. To me, they're somewhat inconsistent.

I guess I'm primarily interested in what sort of accountability framework you are going to put in place. More specifically, is there going to be a follow-up routine to that to see that money has in fact been expended in ways that meet your policy objectives, and so that at the same time we know after the fact that the Canadian people have gotten their money's worth?

Mr. Denis Coderre: That's a very important question, and I totally agree with you that follow-up will be the name of the game. When we're talking about accountability, we have to make sure. We are putting together a new framework, and every year they will have to make a report on how they spend their money. But when we're talking about accountability, it's not only a matter of dollars; it's also a matter of how it is going within their own process. How do they manage their problem?

If you want a coherent national sports policy—if you have some grievances between the athletes and the NSOs, for example—it is important that everybody is singing the same tune. If we want to build up.... Less structure doesn't mean that we don't have any structure at all. We will have some specific questions, some specific framework regarding how they spend their money. That's the first thing, number one. But secondly, it's also to build up a new partnership. We have already heard from Sport Canada people who are working very closely with the national sports organization in May, and they have tried their best to make sure the relationships among themselves are good.

I think it's important that if we want to have a new partnership—I was referring to responsibility—we have to make sure that if we want to put forward a strategy, Sport Canada is not just there as a father or for giving an allocation and that's it. There are also some problems in some organizations with their athletes, and that's the reason why I put forward a new working group for the settlement of grievances. Accountability is not just a matter of money, but a matter of a new relationship among ourselves.

The Chair: We're going to close with two short questions. One will be from Monsieur St-Julien.

[Translation]

Please be brief.

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Mr. Minister, you're a fighter and a worker. You've told us that you can walk and chew gum at the same time. Back home, we chew spruce gum and walk with clogs.

This is my question. Two thousand kilometres from Ottawa, in the sector of Nunavik, the Canadian government is the trustee of the James Bay Convention. It often happens that departments do not respect the James Bay Convention in several areas. They certainly do not respect it in matters of amateur sport. This is not your fault. You're new at the job. I received a letter dated January 28 from the President of the Conseil de la Société Makivik, Pita Aatami. I was at the Kuujjuaq office for three days. He told me:

The lack of recreational facilities for our young people is considered one of the main problems in our communities. The Makivik Society, on its own initiative, and using heritage funds, has built hockey arenas in each of its 14 communities. We now need similar sport facilities that young people and other citizens of Nunavik could use year round...

The people of Nunavik would like to meet with you in Kuujjuaq. I know that you will take the trouble to go and see them.

I'm just back from the Aboriginal sector; I met mainly with Inuit from Nunavik. One of your officials told me one day...

The Chair: Would you please get to your question, Mr. St-Julien?

Mr. Guy St-Julien: Yes, but I think that the Minister will listen to me, he will be late, but that is not serious.

Officials from the Department of Canadian Heritage have told me that they were not going to go to the North because it was too far and it would cost too much, Minister. People want to know what is going to happen in the area of amateur sport, particularly with respect to infrastructures. Will the people of Nunavik get some assistance? What is the federal government doing for them?

Mr. Denis Coderre: I would like to thank you for your question, for two reasons. First, when I said that there were no second-class citizens, that applied as well to the First Nations and Inuit population. That is why there will be a regional conference held in the Territories. It is also why I will be at the opening of the Arctic Games on March 5. It is also why I worked in co-operation with Bob Nault, our Minister of Indian Affairs, to ensure that we can work together to build bridges to improve our relationship with the Aboriginal and Inuit people so that we can do something in the area of sports.

• 1205

Every undertaking requires that a first step be taken, and that has not yet been done. The same answer applies to infrastructures.

[English]

The Chair: Before I pass the mike to Mr. Mills, I just wanted to let members know

[Translation]

that we have to deal with some issues before the end of the meeting. I would therefore ask you not to leave the meeting room when the Minister leaves. It will just take a few moments to deal with these issues.

[English]

Mr. Mills.

Mr. Dennis Mills: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a short question. Denis, we know what happens when we do not have the support of the national media for amateur sport. If we're going to mobilize this nation to become committed to this part of our nation's fabric, we must figure out a way to get the national media excited about amateur sport. Have you had any thoughts on what we could do? I know you have certain friends in Quebec and Bob McCown in Toronto who will give you instant support, but have your officials thought of some way in which we could prick the conscience of national sports journalists? We see them spend all of their time on professional sport in the sports section of newspapers, etc., but very rarely do we get a blast of support for amateur sport. Have you thought about this?

A voice: It's easy. Just create a scandal.

Mr. Denis Coderre: I'd like to know the photographer who took the picture today in every newspaper.

You hit the nail. Every time I visit a place and every time I'm delivering a speech, I'm happy to see that the media are there. I feel that since it's everybody's business, they have a duty.

I just came back from Calgary, where Jeremy Wotherspoon broke a world record in speed skating and Jamie Sale and David Pelletier had perfect marks in figure skating, along with Elvis Stojko. It was the weekend of the Super Bowl, and in the Calgary Herald we saw that the report on the Super Bowl was on page 7 and for the first six pages we were talking about amateur sports. So I pay tribute to them.

I think they're doing some share, maybe not enough, but the more we talk about it.... It's like the movie: “If you build it, they will come”. I feel that we should all work together and make sure that we push forward for amateur sports, because it's a matter of our kids and of our future. As a proud Canadian, I feel the media should do and are doing their job.

[Translation]

The Chair: Thank you very much for coming to meet with us, Minister.

[English]

I really appreciate it. We all appreciate it. All the very best to you.

Mr. Denis Coderre: Thank you very much.

[Translation]

The Chair: I would ask committee members to please stay for another couple of minutes so that we can settle a few new issues.

First of all, I would like to tell you that we are unfortunately going to be losing Mr. Godfrey, who will be involved in another committee that sits at the same times. He will be replaced by Mr. Irwin Cotler.

[English]

I would like to place on the record my very warm thanks to Mr. Godfrey for a fantastic contribution to this committee, of which he was chair for some time.

[Translation]

You have already received from the clerk

[English]

these two papers. One is a schedule of future meetings. The other is a list of appearances by various people, as discussed among ourselves.

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With regard to the schedule itself, a schedule has already been prepared for between today and the time we—

Mr. John Solomon: Mr. Chair, I don't have a copy of that. Is a copy available?

The Chair: Yes, we'll give you a copy, for sure.

As you can see, this schedule is according to our previous discussions. On Thursday we'll be receiving Mr. David Leighton and Mr. Peter Herrndorf from the NAC.

[Translation]

On February 15, we will be meeting with the Deputy Minister, Alexander Himelfarb, and on February 17, with Mr. Rabinovitch, the President of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

[English]

Then the rest of the time before the recess, the next two weeks, the week of February 21 and the week of February 28 and March 1, we are tackling a book distribution industry study.

There are a few things we should discuss. Number one, you will see that most of our meetings are taking place in this room, 237-C, which is now available for TV broadcasts. So what I want to know from the members is, number one, do we want to make a request for television for the NAC, for Mr. Himelfarb, for Mr. Rabinovitch, and the three round tables?

Mr. Dennis Mills: We should request it for Mr. Rabinovitch for sure.

The Chair: It's up to you. I would like to get a feeling from the members. Mr. Mark.

Mr. Inky Mark: Mr. Chair, I would support televising all our meetings from this room if we have the capability.

The Chair: Okay. Is that the general feeling?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chair: All right. It will be done.

With regard to the study on book distribution, there is one session on February 22, which is a briefing session with officials. Now, for obvious reasons, because we're going to have round tables afterwards, there is some information in there we might want to get from the officials on a confidential basis in order to make us ready for the round tables. It would seem to me that it would be useful if that discussion were an informal discussion in camera where we can ask all the questions without.... Is that agreeable?

Some hon. members: Agreed.

The Chair: So we'll make that session in camera, and for all the other sessions we're going to request TV.

The session on the 22nd, as you will note, is in Room 112-N. That will be in camera.

The Clerk of the Committee: No, it's in Room 209 of the West Block.

The Chair: Oh, it's in Room 209 of the West Block. I'm sorry. There is no camera there anyway, but the discussion will be in camera.

What we had decided was to meet with the Minister of Canadian Heritage, which we have done, and with the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport, which we have done today. Hedy Fry came. So we'll schedule Mr. Himelfarb, Mr. Rabinovitch, and the NAC.

• 1215

With regard to what is left from our discussions in the past, we might look at the concentration of newspaper ownership at a later date. We have to look at the national parks issue, we have to meet the Auditor General, and there will be the report on ecological integrity of the parks. We talked also about seeing the CRTC, looking at cable community television systems, Telefilm, and virtual museums, but this will be for much later.

Is there any other item? Monsieur de Savoye.

[Translation]

Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): With respect to community television, you will remember that an Act that came into effect on January 1, 1998 providing that cable companies could contribute to a national fund rather than to their community television. The Act stated that in two years—as of January 1, 2000, which is already past—it would be possible to review the Act to see whether things were working out as planned. In its decision at the time, the CRTC said, and I quote:

The Commission believes there are really no grounds to suggest that existing cable companies will stop supporting the community channel as an outlet for local interest.

That is not the case, Mr. Chairman. In Quebec, community television has a unique way of operating, and in the past six months, eight community television channels were closed down by Vidéotron that Rogers just bought, as we know.

I have had an opportunity to meet with representatives from the Fédération des télévisions communautaires autonomes du Québec, which is upset, and which is afraid that if we wait six more months, any representation they might make would come too late.

I would ask the committee to include the issue of community television on our agenda, as we did for our study on book distribution, which proved to be a pressing matter. We should study this issue immediately after the Easter break, if possible.

[English]

The Chair: What is the feeling of the members? Are there any objections to Mr. de Savoye's suggestion?

Mr. Inky Mark: I would certainly support that. How urgent is it in terms of time? When would you like to have that topic appear before the committee?

Mr. Pierre de Savoye: Right after Easter would be fine.

The Chair: After the recess. The clerk will make a note of it among the various items. We already have it on our list, so we'll just put it on a priority basis for after the break.

Mr. Pierre de Savoye: I might wish to add something else to the list, if possible.

[Translation]

The National Capital Commission has an investment plan at the moment to revitalize downtown Ottawa. Fairly recent newspaper reports suggest there are some problems. I have also read that the Chair of the Commission had no objection to appearing before the committee to bring it up to date.

I don't think this is an extremely urgent matter, but it is definitely an important and interesting one for us as parliamentarians. I would like to hear what my colleagues think of this and see what we could do together.

[English]

The Chair: Mr. Limoges.

Mr. Rick Limoges (Windsor—St. Clair, Lib.): On another point, I certainly don't have any problem with looking at things that are more urgent. We have many important things on our list to be discussed, and it makes sense to move up those that are more urgent in terms of the timelines.

I would also suggest that if we're going to be making up this schedule of meetings on a regular basis, perhaps we should include a listing of those items that are tabled for future discussion and not yet scheduled, so that we can all keep track of these items as you have. That will be useful for us to be able to keep in mind, when we're discussing those things, those issues we have not yet discussed and still see as important enough to discuss.

The Chair: Yes, that's a very good idea.

Mr. Pierre de Savoye: Agreed.

The Chair: In fact the clerk had sent out this sheet with it, which says “Future Business of the Committee”. That's what I was reading from.

Mr. Rick Limoges: I understand that, but I just think this is a great pool, and that would be a good place to have it.

• 1220

The Chair: Yes, I think it would be a good idea to put it on there. So that's great. And frankly, I don't see any objection to bringing the National Capital Commission here before us. They've appeared before to be questioned by members. They're always willing to appear. So by all means, we'll put this on the list as well for after the Easter recess.

[Translation]

I think that is all for this morning.

The meeting is adjourned.