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I call this meeting to order. Good afternoon, everyone.
Welcome to meeting number 34 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on April 28, 2021, the committee is meeting on the study of the state of the Pacific salmon.
Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Therefore, members can attend in person in the room or remotely by using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will show only the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.
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I will remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.
I would now like to welcome our witnesses for today. We have the Honourable Bernadette Jordan, Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard. With the minister, I believe we have a number of departmental officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
Minister, I don't know if you want to actually recognize who's here with you. Then we'll start your opening remarks.
You can proceed when you're ready.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is great to be here with all of you again. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you all today.
First of all, I would like to acknowledge that I'm coming to you from Wolastoqiyik and Mi'kma'ki, the traditional unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq people.
Joining me are several of my officials, including Timothy Sargent, the deputy minister of Fisheries and Oceans; Dr. Niall O'Dea, senior assistant deputy minister, strategic policy; Jean-Guy Forgeron, senior assistant deputy minister for fisheries and harbour management; Rebecca Reid, regional director general, Pacific region; Arran McPherson, assistant deputy minister, ecosystems and ocean science; Alexandra Dostal, assistant deputy minister of aquatic ecosystems; Hugo Pagé, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer; and Andy Smith, deputy commissioner, shipbuilding and material.
Given that this is my first appearance since budget 2021 was tabled in the House, I would like to talk about some of the investments that are specific to Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Today I will discuss the budget and focus on the key themes of conserving and protecting our marine resources and supporting coastal communities and economies. Over the next five years, DFO and the Coast Guard will receive significant investments that will allow the department to continue its important work in these areas.
I will also be happy to take your questions on the topic of Pacific salmon.
Our government knows that the health of our oceans is intrinsically linked to the health of our economy and the health of our people. One way we can conserve and protect our marine resources is by establishing a network of marine protected areas and other effective area-based conservation measures. MPAs are proven to be a way to help aquatic species, habitats and ecosystems recover from human-induced stresses such as overfishing, natural resource extraction and pollution.
When our government took office in 2015, less than 1% of our oceans were protected. Today that figure stands at almost 14%, with a goal of increasing this to 25% by 2025, working towards 30% by 2030. To help Canada meet its ambitious marine conservation targets, budget 2021 earmarked $976.8 million over the next five years. This investment will be used to expand our network of MPAs on all three coasts by working closely with indigenous, provincial and territorial partners and local communities to better protect and manage vulnerable areas. Ultimately, this work will benefit the broader marine environment, coastal communities and local economies.
Budget 2021 also signals a strong federal response to address the serious decline of Pacific salmon on the west coast. Despite extensive conservation measures in recent years, climate change and threats caused by humans, including deteriorating habitat; contaminants; illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing; changes in how land and water are used and international fishing pressures have negatively affected Pacific salmon at every stage of their life cycle.
Currently, 50 different Pacific salmon populations are being considered for listing under the Species at Risk Act or are pending assessment by the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada. The reasons are numerous, complex and incredibly concerning. When unforeseen events such as the Big Bar landslide occur, the risks to vulnerable salmon stocks are magnified even further. Bold, sustained and coordinated action is needed to stabilize, protect and rebuild Pacific salmon for the communities that depend on sustainable fisheries and the ecosystems that support them.
Last April, as many of you know, our government announced a historic investment in Pacific salmon. This unprecedented $647-million investment is the single most transformative investment the government has ever made towards saving salmon. It is aimed at stopping the declines now, while helping to rebuild populations over the longer term. Our government will be taking a collaborative approach that focuses on strengthening partnerships with provinces and territories, first nations, industries, organizations and others who are already doing so much to protect and conserve salmon.
We must bring key partners to the table and identify and prioritize actions to support healthy salmon. I know this investment comes on the heels on the committee's study on this important issue. I want to thank the members for their work on this file. I look forward to hearing your recommendations. I'm confident that this investment will provide a coordinated response to help the recovery of Pacific salmon to support the many communities, harvesters and businesses that rely on the health of these stocks.
Mr. Chair, budget 2021 will give my department the financial means it needs to meet our marine conservation targets, address declines of Pacific salmon and protect aquatic species at risk. It will also provide the Coast Guard with additional funding to prevent and mitigate environmental incidents on the water through an extension of the emergency towing vessels located on Canada's west coast.
Budget 2021 will also help coastal communities build back better and stronger from the COVID-19 pandemic. This includes investing significantly in small craft harbours.
In 2019, the commercial fishing industry had landings valued at almost $3.7 billion and employed more than 45,000 workers. Even during the hardships of the past year, fish and seafood were among the largest single food commodities exported by Canada. Budget 2021 includes $300 million to repair, renew and replace infrastructure at small craft harbours over the next two years. This will help shore up the future for the industry by providing safe, functional harbours while at the same time creating well-paid jobs for Canadians.
We are also strengthening our commitment to marine safety for indigenous coastal communities by ensuring that communities can get the boats and equipment they need to keep people safe in local waters.
Mr. Chair, these investments in coastal communities are a down payment on our future that will pay dividends in the months and years ahead for Canada while the world recovers from this global pandemic.
Whether we’re talking about conserving and protecting our marine resources or supporting coastal communities and economies, all of this work is interconnected. Ultimately, budget 2021 is an investment in Canadian families and communities. These are investments that underscore how our nation’s economic prosperity and the long-term health of our environment can and must go hand in hand.
As minister, I’m confident that the funding I outlined today will position Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard to deliver on key priorities that contribute to a stronger maritime economy, healthier oceans and more resilient coastal communities.
Now I’m pleased to answer any questions you may have.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
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Thank you, Minister, and again, thank you for your appearance here today and to the group of staff members you brought along with you.
Before I go to questions, I would like to welcome Mr. Trudel back to this committee. As well, I know Mr. Zimmer is filling in for somebody, and he's in the committee room, so I welcome Bob to this committee.
I'd also like to give a big welcome to a hero of mine to some degree, Mr. Simms, a fellow Newfoundland MP and someone who has cheered this committee and been a part of this committee for quite some time. It's good to have him back to fill in for one of the members today. I'm sure he'll be a great contributor to the debate as we go forward this evening.
I will now go to Mr. Bragdon for six minutes or less.
Go ahead, please, for your question.
Welcome, Minister. It's good to see you today.
My first question, Minister, is that no matter the issue, no matter what we study, what fisheries we look into and which coast the witnesses are coming from, we hear again and again that you and your department have completely neglected to consult with them properly before making industry-changing decisions. This creates tremendous instability at a time when we already have great uncertainty with COVID-19. This continued instability in their lives causes questions about their future livelihoods. It's hard to make future decisions about an area they are passionate about and have served and want to continue to make their living in.
Why do you and this department continue to insist on keeping those most affected by your decisions away from the decision-making table? We heard this whether from indigenous stakeholders or the commercial fishery stakeholders and whether it related to the prawn harvesters, east coast lobster fishers or fish farmers in B.C. There's been a tremendous echo from coast to coast regarding the lack of true consultation or being part of the process and the decision-making process and finding out only after the fact.
Minister, do you have any explanation for this?
I would like to say that I would disagree with that assertion. We consult widely with a number of different stakeholders as we make decisions. We also make decisions based on science.
Over the past year I have met countless times with first nations communities, with the industry, with commercial harvesters, with stakeholder groups and with environmental organizations. Actually, probably one of the largest parts of my job is meeting with stakeholders and listening to their concerns and their comments. A lot of the policy we develop comes from those consultations.
I will also say that we do meet regularly with provincial and territorial partners with regard to fisheries management decisions. However, many of the decisions we have to make are based on the science regarding where the stocks are and what is happening within the sector.
For example, during COVID-19 we had some really tough decisions to make with regard to the opening of seasons—
Madam Minister, welcome to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. It's a pleasure to speak with you today. In your opening remarks, you talked a lot about partnerships with industry. I feel that's important. As a resource, Atlantic salmon are generally doing well in Quebec. The Quebec model is quite exemplary in terms of how efficiently it's managed.
When the director general of the Fédération québécoise pour le saumon atlantique appeared before the committee two weeks ago, she talked about working with communities and fishers as well as sharing expertise, which I feel is very important. It might also serve to inspire how Pacific salmon are managed in British Columbia.
Do you and your department plan to work with experts and communities, particularly in Quebec, but also elsewhere in the world, to see what's being done to ensure the future of the species?
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Again, I will say that your department manipulated the science and provided a report that diluted the science that was there.
I want to move on.
Minister, the Adams River, in my riding of North Okanagan—Shuswap, was once known as the richest 300 acres in the world because of the sockeye and other salmon that used to spawn and hatch there.
For years we've seen continuing salmon declines, and your status quo management is not working. Your actions and inactions in this year alone have hurt British Columbians and the families and communities they support. Your Discovery Islands decision was announced with no plan for the hundreds of workers it will affect. By your sudden regulatory reinterpretation, 600 B.C. prawn harvesters had their livelihoods put on notice, along with 9,000 British Columbians who depend on a public fishery for their workforce and employment, because you have again rejected the proposal for mark-selective fisheries. Juvenile wild Pacific salmon continue to be obliterated by pinnipeds, yet you refuse to accept proposals for their management.
Despite a mandate from your , you've also failed to make—
Madam Minister, thank you for being with us.
Caraquet Bay, Chaleur Bay and the Gulf of St. Lawrence are right in front of me. As you know, the waterways in that region are used by fishers of lobster, crab, herring and several other species.
I'd like to say thank you, because this year, as a result of your action and all of our discussions, Coast Guard ships, hovercraft, were able to provide icebreaker service. In my constituency, contracts have been signed with third parties, such as Ocean Group and ECO Technologies, and that has allowed crab fishers, even lobster fishers, to start the season earlier, which made it possible to limit interaction with Atlantic right whales. That has paid off. In fact, the quota has been almost fully met.
There are still challenges. Some areas are closed right now, which is causing problems.
Madam Minister, thank you again. I'd like you to remind those who are watching or listening, and even people in my community, why we're protecting right whales. A lot of markets are at stake and not protecting them could have significant consequences.
I'd like you to talk about that for us, Madam Minister.
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I would first like to thank the harvesters in your area who every day.... I know it can be challenging when we have to shut down an area because of a whale sighting, but we've been working hand in hand with industry to make sure that there is the least disruption possible when it comes to making sure we are protecting the North Atlantic right whale.
Our government has been committed to making sure we do everything we possibly can. There are very few of these creatures left. I think there are fewer than 100 at this point.
It's important for us to make sure we do it for a number of reasons, not only because it's the right thing to do, because we share the oceans with these whales, but also because it impacts our ability to sell our products overseas. Other countries want us to have good measures in place to protect these creatures.
Our government has made sure there is money available to help harvesters with regard to some of the measures that we've had to put in place, including the Atlantic fisheries fund, which has been able to test things like easy-breaking rope and ways to track. We've also put in place the ghost gear fund, which was extremely popular when we launched it two years ago. It was then an $8-million project to clean up ghost gear. In the budget this year, it was increased with another $10 million to make sure we are dealing with ghost gear.
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Thank you, Madam Minister.
I would just like to share with committee members how our fishers have evolved and are aware they need to protect these whales.
In closed areas, some fishers are now using ropeless traps and an electronic device that brings the traps to the surface. This was made possible thanks to investments that you and your department made. I thank you for that.
On that note, people are wondering if they can count on you and rest assured that, next year, funds and services like the Coast Guard and other third parties can help make sure that the fishing season starts as early as possible, as it did this year. We've seen the impact it has had. Factory employees were able to work, fishers were able to almost fully meet their quota and the entire community is better off.
Can we count on you and your department to ensure we get these services next year?
Thank you, Minister, for being here today.
Minister, many communities, businesses and families along Canada's west coast depend on access to chinook salmon for their livelihood, food security, family traditions and businesses.
I've asked you before about mark-selective fisheries. They are a precautionary and sustainable way to provide critical access to these chinook salmon while minimizing or virtually eliminating any of the impacts on the wild stocks of concern. The department has been aware of mark-selective fisheries proposals now for over eight years, and we simply can't get a definitive answer one way or the other.
Minister, I'd like to think that you're in charge of the department. I'd like to think that you've seen the reasonableness of mark-selective fisheries proposals from advisory boards. Virtually everybody says that it's okay to go ahead with these things.
Are you going to instruct your department to proceed with mark-selective fisheries so that we can have this effective conservation tool and actually achieve a balance between conservation and socio-economic objectives?
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I think we should be careful. Not all stocks are in decline. I'll agree, and everybody at this table would agree, that certain stocks are in decline, but certain stocks are also very healthy and very vibrant. Certain stocks are actually just created, through hatchery programs and so on, for the purpose of putting fish into the ocean to be caught.
I'm an Albertan, Minister, one of many Albertans who count on going to the west coast to catch fish, and we know, based on talking to those who offer charters and so on, that they know we're not going to pay for airfare or drive to the west coast unless we have some type of certainty and predictability that we can keep one or maybe two chinook salmon. That is the prized fish that's out there. We know that there are many chinook salmon that are produced by hatcheries in Washington and other areas, and there's every indication, as there was last year when there were great opportunities to catch and retain chinook salmon, that this year there's going to be a good return of chinooks, not in the stocks of concern but in other areas.
What kind of certainty and predictability is there that we are going to have the same kind of summer catch retention that we had last year? The sooner the department decides, or you decide, to announce that, the sooner people will book trips to the west coast and provide some economic certainty for those who rely on chinook salmon fisheries for a livelihood. Sooner rather than later, can you give us any clarity on what's going to happen?
I'll begin by thanking and congratulating the minister for ensuring that DFO got a significant budget increase in this budget. That is no simple feat and, Minister, I want to acknowledge your work on that.
Minister, the lobster and crab fishery has been very beneficial for commercial and first nation fishers in Atlantic Canada, and I have always focused on policies that protect the value and future of these important fisheries. My concern today, and my question to you, stems from testimony that was given in the fisheries committee and directly from fishers about the growing practice of unrecorded sales for cash in the lobster and crab fisheries. These sales are used to influence who gets the product. This practice will hurt the industry, as it has a destabilizing effect on the fishery.
What enforcement measures are in place and what steps is your department taking to identify this practice, document it, prosecute where necessary and eliminate it, Madam Minister?
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Thank you for the question, Mr. Morrissey.
One of the things that we all hear about is the unreported sales of fish. This is a challenge. Of course, as you know, DFO regulates the fishery, but once it hits the wharf, it becomes provincial jurisdiction with regard to processing and to who's buying it.
I will say that we are working collaboratively with the province on this issue. Also, of course, RCMP officers have a number of different tools that they use to address the concerns and do investigative work. We do not direct them. They are independent.
I think it's also important to note that I will be meeting with my eastern fisheries ministers very shortly, in the coming weeks, and this will br a topic of discussion, because it is a concern. When people are selling outside of the boundaries of the law, it impacts all of us. It impacts the price; it impacts the data we have, and it impacts our exports, so we want to make sure that this is done in an above board fashion.
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Absolutely. I did not pick that up in my speech. I do apologize.
I was part of this committee when we did the year-long study that Mr. Arnold put forward on marine protected areas. We know that the best ones are built from the ground up. They are built in collaboration with all stakeholders, with indigenous peoples, with communities, with fishers. That's how they succeed.
Of course the intent of an MPA is not to close a fishery; the intent of an MPA is to make sure it's sustainable for the long term and make sure there's fishing for generations to come.
Are there areas where there is closure? Absolutely. This is not the case here, though. This is not what we are talking about. We are not talking about closing down industry.
I'm going to give some kudos here because I recognize that the Conservative Party, when they had their recent annual meeting, actually approved the 25% by 2025 goal for MPAs. I think that was a good step in the right direction for the Conservatives.
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That's the great part about a selective fishery: It allows us to do both.
You use the word “collaboration” a lot, and that, by definition, is “the action of working with someone to produce something”.
You use that word a lot. You use word salads a lot, Minister.
The public fishery has been more than willing to do a demonstration and to show you that it works, but they don't feel collaborated with. They feel that you've taken their data and simply ignored it. You've ignored conversations at tables that they've been at for months.
When are you going to actually establish the selective fishery that's been asked for? I know you're going to repeat your answer, but my hope is that you'll give us a date, an expected date: “This is my best, Mr. Zimmer. The test date is 2021. Maybe in 2022 we can see a 50% selective fishery, and maybe in three or four years, we can see a 100% selective fishery.”
Minister, we need answers now.
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Thank you, Mr. Battiste.
I also want to thank the committee for the report and the recommendations. It was a very good report, and I look forward to being able to provide you with a response in the near future.
One thing we heard loud and clear throughout a lot of this, and through your report, was that we needed increased communication between the department—me—commercial harvesters and the first nations. We have set up tables to make sure that happens.
We have made progress on having information available to harvesters with regard to first nations' rights and what they mean and what it looks like. We have seen a great uptake from the commercial sector with regard to the information sessions we have put out and the workshops we put in place, but we know there's more work to do.
This has been a long-standing issue, as you well know. It's not one that we will solve overnight, but we are committed to making sure that we are listening. We are doing everything we possibly can to make sure that the concerns we have heard are addressed.
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Thank you for the question, Mr. Trudel.
I will say that “urgency” is absolutely the way that we have to frame this. We have to make sure that wild Pacific salmon survive. This is a unique opportunity and a time for us to make sure that we do everything we possibly can.
The budget announcement is significant because it is a historic amount of money to be put forward, but we have to make sure that we're doing it strategically. We have to make sure that we are doing it in collaboration with other stakeholders, with the indigenous communities.
To that point, one of the main things that we will be doing as we move forward is working in collaboration with those organizations to find out what the priorities are and make sure that we find where the strategic investments have to go, where the policies are that need to change and where the regulations are that possibly need to change. These are all parts of the process, and we are working very hard to make sure that we get those things right.
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Minister, further to my previous question around governance, the current system is clearly not working. The department doesn't have a system to assess the status of a population, the status of the habitat, set a management target, and then manage for the outcomes you want under an integrated approach using the available management levers of habitat, hatcheries and harvest.
The department has had decades to do this and has never done it. It was laid out fairly nicely in the wild salmon policy, which was written over 15 years ago, but never fully activated. Cohen said that someone should be put in charge to integrate all things for salmon, but the department has never done that.
If you pour $647 million into a system that isn't working and that has never activated an effective management framework, I'm worried that we'll lose the opportunity to get better results. This is why a new governance framework is needed and necessary, one that includes the department, the province and first nations. Otherwise, we're just going to end up spending more money on a system that lacks a management framework, lacks a reporting system and lacks accountability for results.
We know that what's best for salmon needs to be a priority and what's good for users must come second. Will you speak about a new model?
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Thank you Mr. Johns. I would like to thank you for your advocacy. You and I have had a number of good discussions over the last few years with regard to this issue, and I appreciate your comments.
The new centre of expertise is going to be something that will bring people together so that we aren't working at cross-purposes. This is one of the challenges we have seen when we have so many different groups trying to do the same thing. It's really important to make sure we come together and find the right path forward by working in collaboration.
I know that people say, “Oh, you say that all the time”, as Mr. Zimmer did, but the reality is that we have to do this with first nations, the province and environmental groups. A centre of expertise is going to give us that ability to work with the best people on the ground who are doing this work now.
Your point is very well taken. That is actually the goal I have. It is to make sure we are working with everyone to make sure we find the best way to conserve and protect these species.
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I'm not frozen, nor am I a frozen prawn.
Minister, former premier Stephen McNeil from Nova Scotia, your home province, accused you, the minister, as well as the government. He was saying, quite frankly, that he was very dissatisfied with the handling of the situation in southwestern Nova Scotia. He said:
We are in a position where (all parties) are not sitting at a table to find what is a workable solution...This is only getting more entrenched.
Then we come over here to the west coast, and we're hearing from the west coast provincial government that it was not properly consulted on the decision leading to the closure of the Discovery Islands open-net pens. The provincial government was not at the table during that discussion. It was blindsided by the announcement and it also felt that it was excluded in that process.
We've heard from industry stakeholders that they've been trying to reach out to you personally, and to your department, to get answers and information. They have felt excluded and they've had no response.
Minister, why are you not meeting with those most affected by these decisions, whose livelihoods in these coastal communities are at stake because of these decisions that you're undertaking? Why not consult with them?
Just reporting out, Minister Jordan, I've heard from my old friend Alex Morton on the west coast. She's done a review of the sea lice situation and young salmon going past the farms that are now not operating. There is a reduction of about 90% in the infestation there.
I have to say that on the one hand we hear, “Well, you've got to act”, and then “Well, no; you'd better wait until you talk to this one, that one and the other one.” We were dealing with an urgent situation, and you took, I think, very brave and very immediate action, and it was clearly necessary, given the kind of damage that was being done there. That's my commentary.
Here's the question: On the centre of excellence, who is it going to report to?
Madam Minister, I'm always amazed to hear the Conservatives talk about science when we know the cutbacks they made to science when they were in government. They even muzzled scientists. So we'll move on to another topic, if you don't mind.
I'm going to talk about prawns. You know that prawners are waiting to go out to sea in certain areas. Year after year, it's not always easy for them, especially with the COVID‑19 pandemic. In the United Kingdom, where the prawns are mainly sold, the markets are almost non-existent, as you know. Have people in your department had any conversations with prawn industry representatives?
Some fishers in my area seem to be saying that they are being forgotten. I don't think we're forgetting about them. It's more on the market side that things are difficult. Is anything being done to find new markets in our country or elsewhere in the world, not just the United Kingdom?
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Thank you, Madam Minister.
As you said, we have programs and funding to help us try to find new markets.
Madam Minister, we had the chance to discuss another topic that really concerns me. It's the sale of fishing licences in New Brunswick or in other Atlantic provinces, and even lobster licences, which we're seeing more and more in our regions. A crab licence is currently worth between $12 million and $15 million.
In the past two or three years, in my area and in New Brunswick alone, we've seen fishing licences go to Quebec, Prince Edward Island or elsewhere.
One challenge we face is the residence criterion. As you know, it's only six months for New Brunswick, compared to two years for Quebec, for example.
I want to take the time to understand this properly.
As I understand it, Madam Minister, we want to work with people in the associations and, if they ask us to change the residence criterion, we're willing to listen to them to ensure that fishing licences remain within our communities and within our province. Is that correct?
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Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.
I'm well aware of the challenges that are being faced with regard to shifting sands in Prince Edward Island and some harbours that are being negatively impacted, particularly the Malpeque and Savage harbours. I believe those are two of the worst ones.
Of course, the $300 million that's in the budget this year for small craft harbours will help with those problems, recognizing that a number of small craft harbours need work, whether it's dredging or infrastructure. This is an ongoing issue for rural coastal communities. We know how important they are to our rural economies, but, sadly, they have been left to fall into disrepair over a number of years.
Our government has actually put $787 million in the last five years into small craft harbours, and this is a significant investment. I know there's a lot of work to be done and I was very happy to see that $300 million. As the members of this committee whom I've worked with before will know, this has been something that I've been talking about for a long time.