I thank you very much for allowing me to be here. I'm unaccustomed to being on this end of the table, as I usually sit at the other end, but today I welcome this opportunity to speak to you.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, I'm here today to speak in support of my private member's bill, Bill , which focuses on the protection of military medals, orders, and decorations awarded to Canadians who have selflessly put themselves in harm's way in the defence of Canada. I hope you will support this bill and pass it quickly through this committee.
As you know, generations of Canadian veterans, through their courage, determination, and sacrifice, have helped to protect the Canadian values of freedom, democracy, and rule of law, both at home and abroad. This meeting today to discuss Bill allows us to reflect upon the importance of Canada's military heritage and the role our government and federal institutions play in commemorating and maintaining it.
On any given day, approximately 8,000 Canadian Forces personnel are preparing for, engaging in, or returning from overseas missions. They follow in the footsteps of Canadians who for more than 200 years have answered the call and have sacrificed all they knew--all the comforts, love, and safety of home--in order to defend the freedom of others.
The efforts and sacrifices of Canada's armed forces throughout history--and even as we sit in this room today--must not be forgotten. They must be honoured as an integral part of Canada's heritage.
Bill recognizes their importance and the importance of the honours and awards given to them in recognition of their sacrifices. This government recognizes the need to protect our military heritage.
Certain medals and other honours are already protected through legislation. Twenty-five years ago, the Mulroney government responded to the need to protect Canada's heritage by introducing the Cultural Property Export and Import Act. This act strikes a balance between the need to protect the nation's heritage and the property rights of private owners. That same approach is what I have aimed for with Bill .
The Cultural Property Export and Import Act includes, among other elements, a system of cultural property export control that requires export permits for a range of cultural property, including medals. This existing act is an important tool in helping to keep objects of outstanding significance and national importance in Canada.
Let me explain how this works in relation to historic medals in order to set Bill in the broader context of heritage protection. Regulations under the Cultural Property Export and Import Act specify categories of objects that require a permit to leave Canada for any reason—temporarily or permanently. Military medals, orders, and decorations are of course included, but, like other protected objects, they must be at least 50 years old. Export permits are refused for objects that are deemed to be of outstanding significance and national importance.
That refusal may be appealed to the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board. On appeal, the board may create a delay period of up to six months to allow Canadian cultural institutions the opportunity to purchase the object in question so that it may remain in Canada. During the delay period, a program of grants is available from the Department of Canadian Heritage to assist institutions in purchasing these national treasures.
Bill would provide a similar opportunity by requiring owners to offer the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation and other cultural institutions the right of first refusal before transferring certain military medals, orders, and decorations to non-residents. Therefore, we have to achieve the goal of balancing the rights of private property owners with maintaining and commemorating an important part of Canadian history.
Creating stricter regulations is one tool to stop owners who want to sell military medals outside of the country, but I believe it is also important to encourage Canadians to donate their medals to museums, where they can be preserved for future generations, rather than selling them to collectors. Under the Cultural Property Export and Import Act, a system of special tax incentives exists to provide further encouragement for owners to donate outstanding historical medals to Canadian institutions. This will be expanded to include all military medals, awards, insignia, and honours.
When I originally tabled Bill , I indicated that my objective was to keep important military medals, orders, and decorations in Canada. That is also our government's long-held objective.
Bill would also balance the rights of individual owners of these military honours with the desire to protect them for the public. That is also the long-held public policy of the government, as evidenced in the Cultural Property Export and Import Act.
Historic medals, decorations, or other honours have been well served by the existing act. Recent examples demonstrate this.
Through the export controls, grant system, and tax provisions of the act, the Victoria Cross of John MacGregor was acquired by the Canadian War Museum for the benefit of all Canadians.
It is through this effective legislation that the Government of Canada acted to ensure that Fred Topham's Victoria Cross was not lost to Canada.
The act also enabled the government to take measures to ensure that the medals of Lieutenant-Colonel Cecil Merritt and Sergeant William Merrifield were retained in a public institution in Canada.
It is time for our modern military medals to receive the same protection accorded to our historic medals and that is what Bill seeks to achieve. Bill C-473 recognizes the important role played by federal museums as custodians of our military heritage.
The Canadian Museum of Civilization and the Canadian War Museum, together with other museums across the country, including the Canadian Forces museums, take on the task of preserving our military heritage. It is important that as parliamentarians we act to ensure the successes of these vital and important cultural remembrance centres.
In my riding of Perth—Wellington, as well as in many of your own respective ridings, local historians and small museums are playing an enormous part in maintaining the proud record of Canadian military achievements. There have been efforts made by people like Dave Thomson of St. George, Ontario, and Philip Fowler and David Gazelle, who, on behalf of a group of Stratford citizens, have purchased several medals won by residents of Perth County and returned these to the Stratford Perth Museum with the help of its director, Linda Carter.
Over the past two years, the following medals have been saved and donated to this museum, where they will be forever protected: Sergeant Lorne Wesley Brothers, World War I British War Medal, a man I knew many years ago; Private George Grimditch, World War I Service Medal and Victory Medal; Lieutenant William Warren Davidson, World War I British War Medal and Victory Medal; Private Douglas Thomas Hamilton, World War I Silver Cross; and Private George Buckingham, World War I Service Medal, another man I knew in my earlier days, a very elderly man. I never realized until I read this about his medals that he was in the First World War. He was in private business in later years. And there was Private Alexander Connolly, whose World War I British War Medal and Victory Medal were also protected.
Canada's military history collections are part of the heritage of all Canadians. In some respects, they matter most to those who have grown up in the peaceful aftermath of war and to those who have adopted Canada as a home free from the tragedies of other lands. The story of our military past is understood and made meaningful to Canadians, many of whom have no direct experience of war or the part played by conflict in our history.
Museums, of course, are much more than collections of objects. With artifacts as material evidence, they illuminate and document our history. Military museums are unique in their commemorative role and they're uniquely placed as repositories of important objects, such as military medals, orders, and decorations that tell the story of the sacrifices of our brave Canadians in uniform.
This government has recognized the importance of preserving our military heritage, both through legislation and through the establishment of museums. Bill speaks of the importance of our military heritage and fills an important gap by focusing on Canada's modern military honours.
Bill would ensure that federal museums would be given the opportunity to acquire and protect modern military medals, orders, and decorations, which are no less deserving than those given 50 or 100 years ago to brave Canadians. For the spirit of the country and the courage of its people, I am pleased to be here to discuss Bill . I urge all members to quickly pass this bill through committee.
I will be happy to answer any questions in the remaining time allotted.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Schellenberger, for bringing forward this piece of legislation.
You probably read or heard the speech I made in the House of Commons, so I won't repeat it, but in that, I did thank you for doing this piece of work and for what I think is quite a good balancing act between the rights of the individual and the rights of the community around these medals.
I've said that the medals tell two stories. They tell the story of an individual's particular actions of heroism and activity in defence of our country, but they also tell the story of our country. They are quasi-public material and quasi-private property. They are both, and I think the bill seems, at least to me, to represent a good balancing of private and public property rights. I thank you for wrestling with that.
I want to ask you a couple of questions about your work. You may not know the answer to this question, but do you have any idea of the number of medals we are talking about? Have you been in touch with any of the museums or organizations about the military having a number of medals in circulation, as it were, that may be of interest?
I believe this is only for medals that are less than 50 years old and that any medal over 50 years old is already protected under a heritage act, so these are new medals from the last 50 years that we're talking about. How many are there? How many do the museums actually think they may or may not want? Is there any idea of what is happening in terms of the sale of these medals? Is there a market? Or is that not a concern?
:
Just speaking to that, I have no idea how many medals are out there. What I would like to see with this bill is for us to just give the same respect to our modern medals that we do to the medals that are 50 and 100 years old.
For the veteran who has these medals, they are priceless to them. They're usually not for sale. It's usually after the fact. It's like I said with George Buckingham, whose name I mentioned. When I knew him, he was a bachelor. His parents had passed on. We painted his house. He used to feed the squirrels. That's all I knew about him. I didn't know that he had medals and I didn't know of his past.
I don't know how many would be wanted by the museums. But my whole thing is my father... I noticed that on the order of business, the orders of the day, you have my name as “Gary Ralph Schellenberger”. Well, my dad is Ralph Schellenberger, and he is a veteran. He has some medals, not great medals; he doesn't have a Silver Cross or anything. But you know, there are a lot of people like my dad. He was a farm boy and was signed up and went off to war. He didn't do anything other than be part of a great army that won the war.
Even I don't know what all his medals mean. I know I will receive those medals and I know what I'm going to do with those medals. I am going to donate them to the local museum so that my father is remembered forever and ever. They will be there;they might just go into a repository someplace. Will they be out for people's view every day? Not necessarily. But usually what museums do is archive those things. They will get the particulars of how and why this person did what he did. This was a young man who went to war because there was a need and he did receive medals.
One of the medals he has is an overseas medal. He didn't receive it until about 35 years ago, because he didn't think he was ever overseas. Well, during the Second World War he was sent to Newfoundland, and at that particular time Newfoundland was not part of Canada, so he received a medal for going overseas. Is that important? I think it is, because during the time he went, either one or two trips before, a ferry sunk going to Newfoundland. He was on one either the day before or the day after, so yes, it was dangerous.
With that, I don't know how many numbers... It's not the veteran that I'm worried about. It's a niece, nephew, or a cousin somewhere down the line who might receive them and not realize what they are.
:
You have a couple of different questions there.
As for getting the word out, again, as I said, I am an associate Legion member. There is the Legion Magazine. The army and navy people have a magazine. These types of magazines do go to the people who hold those medals; they usually subscribe to them. There could be an advertisement in them. How we get the word out, I think, is to let all of our museums know and to do a publication when this bill is passed.
You said that you didn't want it tucked in the back room of a museum. Well, museums have a tendency not to have everything on display all the time. They sometimes move displays. Wouldn't it be great if, around November 1 every year, the museums might have a real Remembrance Day for a couple of weeks in their museums? They could bring out these medals for that week or two weeks in the year. I don't know, as I'm not a museum coordinator, but I think some of those things can happen.
As for some of the very important medals.... I would say that all medals are important, but some of the special medals that have come out would probably end up in the War Museum or somewhere like that and would be on permanent display.
But here's the big thing. I'll use a little “for instance” that happened just recently, and it's not about medals, but about a hockey jersey that Paul Henderson wore in 1972. I watched that game and saw him score that goal. Inevitably, the jersey ended up in the United States. Right now, the person who purchased that jersey from a Canadian is going to make a lot of money, because we do want that jersey back here in Canada. It's not up to the museums, necessarily, to do that, but probably someone will buy it for the hockey museum or that type of thing.
So on this, all I'm trying to do here is to give the same respect, the same honour, to our modern medals that we do for the medals that are already there through the act that is already there.
:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Gary, thank you very much for bringing this issue forward. I thank you and the people around you for the work you've done on this project.
As you're aware, I've had a bill in the House of Commons for several years now, Bill , which goes further than your particular legislation. I just want to start off by saying that you're right: all medals are important. And the reason the government gives people medals, especially our heroes of the country, is because of duty, valour, honour, sacrifice, and service.
But most importantly, the men and women of the service, and those of the police forces, wear their medals. We have 118,000 people who no longer have the chance to wear their medals--or they never got a chance to wear them, as in the case of our Afghan heroes.
When the government gives these medals to these men and women, these heroes, they're not giving them currency. That's not a hundred dollars they have hanging from their chests. So the problem I have with your bill--and I say this with great respect--is that you have put fair market value in your legislation. You've even put sellers in there. This is the problem I have.
Ever since I was a little kid, I've always opposed the selling of medals of any kind, under any circumstances. As you're aware, the Order of Canada, which is one of Canada's highest honours, is not allowed to be sold; it is not allowed to be put on the mercantile system.
I know that I'm probably in a minority here in thinking this way, but I don't believe that any medals, under any circumstance, should be sold. As you know, current personnel who are serving now and who receive medals cannot sell them while they are serving. They can only sell them after they leave the service. You're probably aware of that.
So you're right. In many cases, they're handed off to the children who don't know about them, and they sell them at flea markets, garage sales, or on eBay. You and I have travelled enough and we've seen these. I have worked very closely with Mr. Thompson on this. I don't know what the budget of the War Museum is, but I know the War Museum's budgets aren't unlimited, and I know the government has to make choices. The minute we put a value on medals, I think we diminish the actual meaning of what that medal is. That's my personal opinion.
My first question for you is this: do you think medals should have a fair market value?
I have a second question for you. In Bill , which is, in many ways, reflective of what you're trying to do, would you be at all conducive to a discussion later on between your office and my office of possibly working the two bills together to achieve what you're trying to achieve, which is the cultural significance of the medals and also the point of trying to avoid these falling into the mercantile system?
I have no problem with people giving medals to collectors, museums, churches, or schools. We have two schools in Nova Scotia that have hallways full of medals and shadow boxes and they're beautiful. It's not just museums that can do this.
So my second question leads to this: would you be willing to look at Bill C-208 to see where there are some similarities that we can work together on? Again, I know that I'm probably speaking as a minority, but I just don't believe that medals should have a cash value to them. I just have a problem with that.
Thank you. Maybe you can help me with my problem.
:
Thank you, Gary, for being here, and for this tremendous effort you're bringing forward. I think it's pretty clear there's consensus that this is something we all want to see happen.
Before I get into the questioning, I want to get down to the value of these medals and the fact that they're on the open market now. I don't know how you'd ever change that.
In my view, you might even create a more difficult situation in a black market where these things could be worth three, four, or five times what their—I hate to say it—market value is bringing. I catch what Mr. Stoffer is saying in terms of the sentiment, but the reality is that we have to do what we can do to make sure we protect these.
In that regard, I'm very familiar with a person you've mentioned in your comments, Mr. Dave Thomson from St. George, Ontario, which is in my riding. He searches eBay and other areas to do what he calls “repatriating” the medals to the families of the soldiers they belong to. He does a lot of research in trying to find the families once he has secured the medals. I know you're familiar with him. He actually solicits private donations in order to be able to bid on these, because he doesn't have the financial resources to do it himself.
This is how it's happening today. I'm not so certain that it always has to be governments that fund the repatriation of these medals. I'm sure there are other organizations and individuals. I actually help him find the extra $50 or $100 or whatever he needs to make the next bid to ensure he gets that medal, because I know what he's going to do with it when he gets it. He's going to do the right thing, which is to seek out the family. If he can't, he donates it.
In my community, we have what's called the Canadian Military Heritage Museum in Brantford, Ontario, which is a private collection, believe it or not, of war memorabilia. The museum is thought to be ranked number two in the country now in terms of honouring our military and the objects around it; it's second to our military museum here in Ottawa. I extend an invitation for all of you to come and visit this wonderful place of honour for our military.
So these are the kinds of things that are happening and I'm wondering... That was kind of a preamble to my question, which is about two things. Can you foresee the fact that government doesn't have to fork over the complete cost of this, that this could be a partnership of community organizations, private individuals, and government, perhaps when necessary, to recover these?
Secondly, there are site-specific...both geographically in the case of Stratford and Perth and their museum—they want to keep it in the area of where the individual resided—and there are other places where other museums... In your concept around this, is there a specific location you think they'd like to go...? There are two questions there.
:
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I thank the committee for this opportunity to comment on Bill . We're pleased to do so on behalf of the Canadian War Museum and are greatly honoured to be here before the committee today.
We certainly appreciate the bill's underlying spirit as outlined by . We share the conviction that Canada must preserve and promote its military history, which of course includes the service and sacrifice of our veterans. This is why one of the key messages of the Canadian War Museum is “I must remember”.
For the record, I must say that the Canadian War Museum, an affiliate of the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation, an independent agency of the crown, can neither endorse or oppose legislation before Parliament, as you know. I am pleased, however, to share some facts and observations that may assist you in your deliberations and the important work you do.
[Translation]
In my remarks, I will briefly speak to the significance and extent of our current collection of medals and insignia. I will give an overview of our current acquisition process, and I will discuss some of the ways in which the bill could impact the museum. Then I will be happy to answer any questions.
As you know, the Canadian War Museum was given a mandate, as determined by Parliament, to collect, preserve, interpret and display military artifacts of national significance. The museum is charged with educating Canadians about their military heritage and encouraging them to reflect on what veterans endured for their sake.
Military medals and insignia are part of that heritage. They are powerful symbols of the service, dedication and courage of the men and women who have worn the Canadian uniform. They have an important place in the national museum commemorating our military history.
[English]
At present, the War Museum has about 4,500 items in its collection of medals. The collection is restricted to decorations awarded to Canadians or foreign nationals while in the service of Canada. Some are displayed in our permanent exhibition galleries, which explore Canada's military history from earliest times to the present day. Others are held in safekeeping among our national treasures. All assist in the preservation and the telling of our national story.
The vast majority of these artifacts were donated to the War Museum by service members or their families. For example, just in the past five years since the new museum opened in 2005, we have acquired about 190 medal sets, 164 of which were donated by their owners. Among the most recent donations were two Victoria Crosses, one from the First World War and the other from the Second World War. The financial compensation available to donors is a tax benefit equal to the medal's assessed value.
[Translation]
As mentioned, the museum has seldom purchased medals or insignia. We have done so only when the artifact had outstanding significance and the funds were available. The museum recently purchased a Victoria Cross. It was one of three such medals awarded during the First World War to residents living on the same street in Winnipeg, which was renamed Valour Road in their honour. The medal is of course incredibly valuable to the museum and the country, and was purchased at an auction.
Regardless of whether it is through donation or purchase, the museum will not add a medal to its collection unless it is in keeping with the museum's mandate and satisfies a number of criteria. For example, the museum must determine whether the medal is authentic and whether the person making the offer is legitimate.
Before purchasing an artifact, the museum must of course determine whether the object is of outstanding significance to Canada's military heritage or whether it fills a significant void in the museum's current collection.
[English]
That's the background, Mr. Chair.
I'll turn briefly to the bill itself and highlight some criteria or elements of the bill that may have an impact on the War Museum's current acquisition process.
As I mentioned, we don't currently purchase medals as a matter of course, and therefore we don't maintain a significant budget for that purpose. So if is passed as is, the museum will require additional funding to allow the purchase of medals at assessed values.
Another issue I would like to bring to your attention is the 120-day window for the museum to accept or decline an invitation to purchase a medal at fair market value. First, artifact appraisals conducted by a national museum must be quite thorough, as I'm sure you can imagine, and the appraisal can be a time-consuming process. We would not want to make those determinations with undue haste. And second, if the medal is deemed to be of significant value, it could take time to secure the necessary funds.
[Translation]
In light of these realities, we believe that Parliament should consider an amendment to paragraph 3(1)(b) of the bill that would instead indicate that a government institution has 120 days to respond to a written offer before the owner can transfer the insignia to a non-resident. That would give the museum more time to assess the medal and, if required, obtain the necessary funds.
Finally, the museum has always had the authority necessary to make its own decisions about whether artifacts should be added to the national collection. The museum has always based those decisions on the facts of the case in question, free from any influence or external pressure.
[English]
As stated in section 27 of the Museums Act, “No directive shall be given to a museum...with respect to...the acquisition, disposal, conservation or use of any museum material relevant to its activities”.
We would welcome an addition to Bill that would explicitly safeguard the integrity and independence of the museum's decision-making process. That could be ensured by expressly stating that the museum's decision to accept or decline an offer is final and not subject to further review.
Those are my opening remarks, Mr. Chair. Thank you for this opportunity. I would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have.
Honourable members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for inviting the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping, CAVUNP, Canada's pre-eminent peacekeeping veterans association, and the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, CPVA, to this committee to make comments and suggestions pertaining to Bill .
My name is Ron Griffis. I'm the national president of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping. I have been given authority by the president of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, Mr. Ray Kokkonen, to speak on their behalf.
It should also be noted that I am a member in good standing with that particular organization, and that as recently as this Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, I was at a convention in Winnipeg and in the company of the presidents of several veterans associations. As I understood the situation, they were not aware of Bill .
Our two associations, CAVUNP and CPVA, work hand in hand on most, if not all, veterans' issues. To prepare for this matter, I sought information and suggestions from our colleagues.
All of my colleagues were not aware of Bill and were surprised at my request. The comments I have received are mainly their personal opinions on what should happen with respect to their medals and awards. I respectfully suggest that Bill has not received wide circulation.
In general, our associations support the bill. We are aware of things that have occurred in the past that have required the federal government to act very quickly to prevent military orders, decorations, and medals of cultural significance from leaving the country or being sold on such venues as eBay.
This particular bill would cause sellers or persons wishing to dispose of such items of cultural significance to follow the letter of the law and permit the various authorities to act as required. It has been suggested by my colleagues that this type of legislation is not necessarily required in most cases, as it seems that what it would take is a simple act of will on the part of the government. For instance, when something of considerable significance to the country comes on the open market, it may simply be a matter of the government telling the bureaucrats to go and get it.
The act provides a balance that may be used in circumstances requiring some official undertakings. It may also be used to provide a cooling-off period to permit authorities to research an issue to determine what, if any, cultural significance a particular item may have.
Time restrictions have prevented me from contacting my friend and colleague, retired Colonel Donald Ethell. Recently, on April 8, 2010, Colonel Ethell was appointed as the Lieutenant Governor of the Province Alberta. I wanted to contact him to ascertain his view on this subject.
Colonel Ethell is a member of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping and, as you are perhaps aware, is Canada's most decorated peacekeeping veteran. Prior to his appointment, Colonel Ethell was our association's liaison officer with Veterans Affairs Canada.
From my personal knowledge of my friend, I am quite certain he would have an opinion with respect to this bill. While I do not speak for Colonel Ethell, knowing what I know of my friend and colleague, I respectfully suggest that he would support this bill.
As I have mentioned, in short, our associations support this legislation and trust it will be passed into law.
Once again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before this honourable committee to make comments.
In the service of peace, thank you.
I commend you, Mr. O'Neill, for speaking in French. I smiled earlier, not at what you were saying, but because I saw my colleague, Mr. Stoffer, asking Mr. Schellenberger for a pin. So watch it, Mr. Griffis, because if you have any pins, he will definitely ask you for one.
I think the bill was prepared in good faith. But even if this bill is passed, you will not be required to buy all the medals, since you are independent in any purchases you make. You said earlier that you decide which medals you are going to purchase. Something would need to be added to the bill in order to compel you to purchase certain medals, in particular.
You mentioned the Victoria Cross worth $240,000. Do you have some expertise in such medals? Do you know how many were awarded in Canada and if there are other medals with an equivalent value? How many could there be?
You mentioned three Victoria Cross medals, but how many could there be in the entire country, how many were awarded? If there are 100 of them, their total value is $24 million.
Would it be possible to get an expert opinion so we would know that medal A is worth this much and medal B is worth that much? How many are there in Canada? Could you provide the committee with that information?
:
The answer is no, because you can't.
A voice: That's right.
Mr. Peter Stoffer: You can't buy an Order of Canada, because it's illegal.
In my response to Mr. McColeman's question... In fairness, he probably hasn't had a chance to read my bill, Bill , which would make illegal the selling of medals of armed forces and police personnel that are worn on the left side, like what Mr. Griffis is wearing, and which basically would take away their so-called fair market value.
The reason I say this is that I'm quite offended when I see medals at garage sales, at flea markets, or on eBay, the reason being that somebody else is going to financially profit from the valour of people like Ron Griffis, Don Ethell, Cliff Chadderton, Tommy Prince, or whomever. They got those medals for valour and for honour and service. They didn't get cash. The government didn't stand up and a general didn't hand out a $100 bill to everyone on parade.
So I don't know why society thinks it's okay for future generations to make money from these medals. They're not currency. They represent much more than cash, and I firmly don't believe that everything in our society has to be turned into fair market values, tax incentives, or cash. I find it quite offensive.
I know that Mr. Schellenberger is here, and I can assure him that if all the major veterans groups are supportive of this bill, I certainly won't do anything to stop its progression. I just want to put on the record that I find it objectionable that these medals can be sold, turned into cash, or have a financial incentive on them.
I don't mind people collecting medals. I don't mind people receiving medals. But I know of many cases where medals have been stolen out of homes. Mr. Schellenberger talked about decorating things; they go and steal the medals and they sell them on eBay, because they look at money. It's only money to them. The medals have much more significance than cash. That's my problem with the incentive of the bill...
My question, first of all, is to Ron. Has there been a thorough discussion among you and veterans groups regarding putting value on these medals? Because Mr. O'Neill and his group are going to determine, through a chart process or some circumstance, which medal is significant and which is not.
Mr. O'Neill, with great fairness, I think 50 years from now, if you passed away tomorrow, the War Museum is not going to look at your medals as significant to Canada. But they're damn well significant to you and your family, and to your friends and associates. Because he doesn't have a Victoria Cross, a Silver Cross, or an MM or wasn't a famous Canadian like a General Hillier or a Tommy Prince or something... So this is my problem.
When they all stand on parade and get their medals, they're all equal. They're all proud. I spoke to Smokey Smith on many occasions. He said that he wasn't just proud of his Victoria Cross; he was proud of all his medals. But the only one that gets people excited is the Victoria Cross he wore. All his medals were significant to him and his family.
I'd just like your opinion on that and, Ron, your opinion as well. Have you spoken to groups like the Legion, or the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans, and will you in the future talk to cross-veterans groups on the importance of Mr. Schellenberger's bill? It is important, there's no question about it, but I just wish we could take away the financial incentive on that. I know there are property rights and everything else, but not everything has to be turned into cash. That's sort of my little commentary for you.
Thank you.
:
This is for Mr. Griffis.
You said that medals have a historical and personal value. Some of those medals are passed down to grandchildren. The medals are from conflicts that happened 50 years ago or even the First World War, which took place nearly 100 years ago. The medals have been passed down from generation to generation. A number of them have disappeared from the radar.
You mentioned a tax benefit. You can give someone a tax credit for a Victoria Cross medal that sells for $240,000, but if the great-grandson does not pay taxes, it has absolutely no effect. If he can get $150,000 for it on the parallel market, we will never see that medal again: it will fall off the radar.
So there is no incentive for the owners of these medals to protect them and give them to a museum. An equivalent measure is necessary in order to get these medals in the hands of the museums. I do not think a tax credit is a way to do that. I see that as a real problem. I am not sure how we can fix that or what steps should be taken. That is my first question.
My second question is this. You talked about artifacts. That includes not only medals, but also badges and other things. I would like to have that list. It would help me demonstrate and promote this measure to people in my riding, to the Canadian legion or the owners of the artifacts, to try to recover them somehow to give them to a museum.
It would be helpful to be able to tell people which objects are worth the most. Sometimes people keep these things stored in their basement or elsewhere, thinking they are not worth anything. But those objects could be worth something to a museum. It would be helpful to be able to tell people that all those objects have a probative value to a museum, and it would be appreciated if they would give them to the museum. Every member could get the word out in their riding.