NDVA Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION

Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, May 4, 2004

¹

1545

The Chair (Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.))

Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, CPC)

The Chair

The Clerk of the Committee

The Chair

Mr. Jay Hill

The Chair

Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC)

The Chair

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

The Chair

Ms. Verna Bruce (Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs)

The Chair

Ms. Verna Bruce

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1550

¹

1555

º

1600

The Chair

º

1605

Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Chair

Mr. Jay Hill

º

1610

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Jay Hill

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Jay Hill

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Jay Hill

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Jay Hill

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Jay Hill

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Jay Hill

The Chair

Mr. Jay Hill

The Chair

Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, CPC)

º

1615

Ms. Verna Bruce

The Chair

Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ)

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Doug Clorey (Director General, 60th Anniversary Task Force, Department of Veterans Affairs)

Mr. Claude Bachand

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Claude Bachand

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Doug Clorey

Mr. Claude Bachand

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly

º

1620

Mr. Doug Clorey

Mr. John O'Reilly

Mr. Doug Clorey

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Chair

Hon. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.)

Mr. Doug Clorey

The Chair

Hon. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP)

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1625

Mr. Doug Clorey

Hon. Bill Blaikie

The Chair

Mr. Rick Casson

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Doug Clorey

º

1630

Mr. Rick Casson

Mr. Doug Clorey

Mr. Rick Casson

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Rick Casson

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Rick Casson

The Chair

Mr. Robert Mercer (Executive Director, Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs)

The Chair

Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, CPC)

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Rob Anders

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Rob Anders

The Chair

Mr. John O'Reilly

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. John O'Reilly

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. John O'Reilly

The Chair

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

º

1635

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Doug Clorey

Mrs. Elsie Wayne

The Chair

Mr. Claude Bachand

º

1640

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Claude Bachand

The Chair

Mr. Jay Hill

The Chair

Mr. Jay Hill

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Jay Hill

Ms. Verna Bruce

Mr. Doug Clorey

Mr. Jay Hill

The Chair

º

1645

Mr. John O'Reilly

Mr. Jay Hill

º

1650

The Chair

Ms. Verna Bruce

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs

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NUMBER 012

l

3rd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Tuesday, May 4, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

¹  (1545)  

[English]

    The Chair (Mr. Pat O'Brien (London—Fanshawe, Lib.)): I would like to call to order the 12th meeting of the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs.

    We're going to have witnesses from the Department of Veterans Affairs.

    Before we do that, I understand that we have some journalists from France here. I think they're seated with us here in the room. On behalf of the committee, bienvenu au Canada, welcome. We're happy to have you here. Some Canadian parliamentarians—with our Prime Minister, I believe—will be travelling to your beautiful country in June, to the storied shores of Normandy for the 60th anniversary celebrations. So we're pleased to have some French journalists here. They're here for other reasons but have taken the opportunity to sit in with this committee.

    We're pleased to have you with us today. Welcome.

    Mr. Hill has a point of order, and then we'll go to the witnesses.

    Mr. Hill.

    Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, CPC): I offer my apologies to the witnesses, Mr. Chairman, but it has come to my attention that the office of the Minister of National Defence contacted my office this morning in connection with a question that I had raised in question period yesterday concerning the horrible state of some of our military housing on bases across Canada. In conversation with my staff this morning, the minister's staff indicated that they had offered to appear before the SCONDVA to address a question that I had raised personally with the minister about a month ago. I think it was April 1, if I remember correctly—when we had a televised SCONDVA meeting. I had raised with the minister my concerns about some of this housing, and his staff indicated to my office this morning that they had been prepared to appear before SCONDVA, but they were told that there wasn't time for them, or something like that

    In order to clear that up, Mr. Chairman, I think it is important, obviously, that we do hear from the minister with a greater explanation and answer than he could have provided in a 35-second answer yesterday in question period as to the current situation of potential refurbishment and the ever-increasing rents being charged to our men and women in the armed forces.

    The Chair: Absolutely. I think the whole committee shares the concern you raised, and it was raised, I know, by Mr. Wood as well.

    I don't know about that offer, so I'm going to ask the clerk if she would speak to it.

    The Clerk of the Committee: I did receive a call from the minister's office when I was arranging for Major-General Leslie and Major-General Fitch to come. At that point, they had wanted to do the briefing in place of having those people come—or that was my understanding. I said at the time that the committee definitely wanted to hear from these two people. We had Major-General Leslie last week and Major-General Fitch the week before. In the interim, I haven't had a chance to contact the department again to arrange to have a briefing on the housing situation.

    The Chair: That's fine.

    I think that it's just a matter of when they were offering to come and that we already had people scheduled, and we obviously didn't want to cancel those witnesses, especially somebody of the importance of Major-General Leslie and the people he had with him. Many of you were here for that.

    Mr. Hill, I'll ask the clerk, then, on behalf of the whole committee, to schedule the minister or his staff to come as soon as possible to SCONDVA to give us that briefing or update, because we obviously all share your concern.

    Thanks for raising that point.

    Mr. Jay Hill: On that point, Mr. Chairman, I can't speak for any of the other members of the standing committee, but given the importance of that particular issue.... I have received a lot of communications about some of the conditions, both directly from individuals currently serving in the Canadian Forces who are living in private married quarters on base, and also from people in surrounding communities who are obviously supportive of our men and women in uniform.

    So I would request that you look at the possibility of having that particular briefing televised—if it's not being used.

    The Chair: We'll make that request right now. I think that's a good suggestion. So that's what we'll do as soon as possible.

    I'll recall for members that the meeting Thursday is cancelled, because a number of members on both sides are not going to be available on Thursday.

    We know that we're on a week-by-week schedule, given the potential election call, so I've asked the clerk to schedule witnesses for next Tuesday and Thursday. Let's hope that one of those might be the defence briefing by the CEOs that we agreed to hear. We will see if we can get them. So we're on a week-to-week schedule with out witnesses right now because of other events pending.

    We're just on a point of order now, but I do want to go on to our witnesses as soon as I can.

    Mrs. Wayne, did you have something that you wanted to say?

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne (Saint John, PC): I just want to ask, because I stated I'm not running again in the next election, does that mean I can't go to Normandy? Is that accurate?

    The Chair: I would never tell you that you couldn't go to Normandy, but I don't know about that. Maybe we could take that up after.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I had a call today from a veteran in P.E.I., and I'll ask my question if I get an opportunity here, because it has to be addressed by our presenters.

    An hon. member:Mr. Chair, I've heard you tell Elsie where to go before.

    Some hon. members:Oh, oh!

    The Chair: Not me. No, no. Elsie and I are the original founders of the Canada-Ireland group, so we always get along.

    Let me welcome Verna Bruce, the associate deputy minister of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

    Would you like to introduce your staff, Ms. Bruce?

    Ms. Verna Bruce (Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs): I'd be happy to.

    We have Mr. Robert Mercer, the executive director of our public affairs branch. He'll be able to answer any of your questions around the in-Canada events.

    Mr. Doug Clorey is our director general of the 60th anniversary task force. He'll be able to answer any of your questions around the international events.

    The Chair: Thank you very much. Do you have some opening comments for us?

    Please go ahead.

[Translation]

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Thank you. I am happy to be able to be here today to share with you information about the comprehensive planning taking place across Canada and in France to mark the 60th Anniversary of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy.

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[English]

    I really appreciate the opportunity to be back with you again. It was just a couple of weeks ago when we had the chance to talk to you about VIP, and I think today is a really good opportunity for us to tell you what's going on around D-Day and to ask for your support and assistance in helping other Canadians and veterans be aware of what's happening as well.

    Before I begin, I'd like to pass along greetings from the minister and the deputy minister. Unfortunately they couldn't be with us this afternoon.

    It's most timely that you asked us here today for a discussion on the numerous activities that have been planned both in Canada and in France to mark this significant event in Canada's military history. These activities are a result of a lot of hard work, long hours, and countless collaborative ventures with other departments, the French government, all levels of government here in Canada, and community groups across this great country.

    Sixty years ago on June 6, 1944, Canadians stormed the beaches of Normandy together with our allies, changing the course of the Second World War and ensuring victory. To recognize this sacrifice and contribution, Veterans Affairs Canada, in partnership with the many organizations and groups I just mentioned, has many events planned to pay tribute to the men and women who fought on D-Day and throughout the Battle of Normandy.

[Translation]

    Thousands of veterans and other Canadians are expected to attend events here in Canada and overseas in Normandy, France. The level of engagement and support across Canada has been outstanding.

[English]

    This commitment to honour the sacrifice and contribution of our veterans who landed in Normandy extends to many groups: to the veterans themselves and their national organizations, such as the Royal Canadian Legion; to provincial partners; to youth and communities; to our colleagues at National Defence; and to many, many more.

    Here in Canada, we will recognize veterans with over 50 events and ceremonies across the country. This is really significant. It's the first time we've tried something on this scale within Canada. We think it speaks to the pride of Canadians and the deep appreciation that this nation feels for our veterans.

    Additionally, Canada will join the world to recognize our veterans in France. We expect thousands of people to join in their honour, and we're proud to be able to assist in this remembrance.

    As with past anniversaries, an official delegation of veterans, students, and government officials is being organized by Veterans Affairs Canada. The Return to Normandy Delegation, as we're calling it, will be the major focus of Canada's participation in overseas remembrance of the 60th anniversary of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy.

    First and foremost, let me say that this event is for and about the veterans themselves. For some 60 of the veterans, it will be the first time in 60 years that they're returning to France. For others, it may be a more familiar destination, but the experience of travelling with a large group of veterans will make the journey a very special one for them.

    The comfort and safety of these veterans in our care for 11 days is absolutely our top priority. To ensure their safety, we commit the necessary support staff, including numerous medical personnel, to address the needs of our veteran delegation. We're going to be bringing sunhats and lots of bottled water and umbrellas; we're prepared to accommodate special food needs and mobility issues; we plan lots of rest breaks; and we're going to do our best to keep the length of the ceremonies to reasonable times.

    The average age of our veterans is over 80. We'll find that many of the veterans actually require a caregiver to be with them to help them manage with their day-to-day activities, and we're going to be as respectful as we possibly can about the needs of the veterans who are travelling with us.

    I'm also pleased to tell you that youth ambassadors from every province and territory will accompany the veterans. It's to them we've passed the torch of remembrance. On their return, they will be the ones to share with their generation what they have seen and heard. That is how our history remains alive. That is how the memory of our veterans and their sacrifice will continue to burn bright for the next generation of Canadians.

    The veterans making up the delegation have been officially invited based on the regiment or squadron nomination process. We don't just decide ourselves who to take. The regiments and squadrons that participated in D-Day and the Battle of Normandy are asked to make the delegate decisions and inform us.

    Currently, event and travel plans are being finalized in close partnership with National Defence. Once again, I'm pleased to say that DND is providing us with absolutely wonderful support. Minister McCallum will lead the Return to Normandy Delegation from June 1 to 11, and I know a number of you in this room will be part of the official delegation.

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[Translation]

    I will review the main events in France in just a few minutes, but before I do that, I will tell you about the new and large responsibilities we have overseas, in addition to managing our own delegation.

[English]

    This is the first time we've actually felt a major sense of responsibility to a huge number of veterans and Canadians who are going to be in France but are not part of our official delegation. As you'll see in a few minutes, it gets to be a very complicated process. With recommendations from the D-Day advisory committee, which our former minister created in 2002, our overseas planning has focused on obtaining access for all Canadian veterans to the events in Normandy and to Juno Beach itself.

    I think here I should take a minute to make note of the very special contribution of General Richard Rohmer, whom many of you know, who came to the department a few years ago and was absolutely determined that all Canadian veterans should have access to Juno Beach, unlike the situation that occurred 10 years ago, when the Canadians didn't have access. It was his number one issue, and I'm happy to say that we've been able to resolve that problem. Our work over the past year has been all-consuming on this front, but we have heard time and time again from officials in France that Canada, and especially Veterans Affairs Canada, has been ahead of our allies in planning for these very special events in France.

    With the recent March 11 train bombings in Spain and our post-September 11 environment, high security measures will be in force to ensure the safety of all those participating in Normandy. When you stop and think about it, we'll have as many as 15 heads of state and Her Majesty the Queen in attendance. So security checkpoints and special visitor identification are required. That has required significant work with officials in France. As one example, we had to create and manage a travel information form for all Canadians planning to attend the D-Day events, and to date we've received over 1,500 of these forms back from veterans and their guests. The information is required by the Government of France for security purposes.

    Through close collaboration with the French government, as well as the RCMP, DND, and Parks Canada, we're confident that appropriate measures will be in place to ensure full participation of Canadians in the Government of Canada organized events. This is truly a cross-government initiative, with tremendous support both nationally and internationally.

[Translation]

    Now, on to the ceremonies and events themselves. We officially begin on June 4 with a parade or cavalcade of vintage military vehicles along the coast of Normandy.

[English]

    Two generous individuals from Belgium and Holland are contributing the use of over 50 Second World War vehicles for the parade for our veterans. When they were asked about the cost of their efforts, one of the gentleman said it was nothing compared to the price Canadian soldiers paid for their freedom.

    On June 5 we have a binational ceremony with the Government of France at the Canadian War Cemetery at Bernières-sur-Mer. Her Excellency Adrienne Clarkson, Prime Minister Paul Martin, and the Prime Minister of France, Mr. Jean-Pierre Raffarin, will serve in an official capacity to honour our veterans.

    At a very special ceremony on June 6 at the Juno Beach Centre, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, the Governor General, and the Prime Minister will be paying tribute to their sacrifice. We anticipate between 1,500 and 2,000 veterans, and as many as 3,000 other Canadians will be in attendance that day, many making the trip for this very special occasion. With these veterans now in their eighties, it will be likely the last ceremony at Juno of this size and circumstance. I know all Canadians will be wishing them well on that day.

    In the three days following, the Return to Normandy Delegation will visit the graves of their comrades and will participate in other commemorative events, such as those organized by the Canadian Battlefields Association and local communities in Normandy.

    In additional, on June 6 there is the international ceremony planned at Arromanches, which will be broadcast for general viewing at the Juno Beach Centre. This ceremony will showcase Canada's place in military history on the world stage.

    Our department has been working on a number of fronts with the media both in Canada and in France to ensure that the media will be accredited and provided with transportation and the necessary technical supports to file their stories quickly and efficiently. Evening broadcasts of the CBC national news will actually be carried live from the Juno Beach Centre on June 4, 5, and 6.

    Here at home Canadians have already begun to publicly recognize the contributions of D-Day and Normandy veterans. On March 29 in Halifax, over 250 people gathered for the official launch of the D-Day coin from the Royal Canadian Mint. The following day, Ottawa area D-Day and Normandy veterans were feted on Parliament Hill by the Prime Minister, Minister McCallum, and other members of Parliament and senators as we launched a remembrance poster, a 60-second video public service announcement, and learning materials for D-Day. I hope some of you were able to attend what was a very enjoyable evening. We have pins for you today. These tangible products, together with our extensive online learning resources, enable us to promote a higher level of understanding of Canada's role in D-Day. On the education front, we post to our website lesson plans and ideas for teachers and provide extensive information for media, so we can again pass the torch to younger generations.

    A few days later, on April 5, Minister McCallum announced a partnership with the Dominion Institute that's enabling 1,000 veterans to visit 1,000 schools across Canada to speak with youth about the 60th anniversary of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy. Veterans who participate in the D-Day memory project will engage youth in the remembrance of D-Day through their own personal experiences.

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[Translation]

    Looking ahead, on June 6 itself, there will be over 50 ceremonies, parades, marches, school plays, candlelight ceremonies and receptions, supported by all levels of government, towns, communities and young people across Canada. Here in the National Capital, there will be a major march past and ceremony at the National War Memorial.

[English]

    In like manner, in communities across Canada citizens are gearing up to celebrate their own veteran heroes with displays and tours, with sod-turning ceremonies for gardens of remembrance, with youth theatrical performances, and with countless other commemorative activities. These events are the result of extraordinary collaboration between federal departments, provincial and municipal governments, and countless community groups and individuals. In many cases provincial premiers are hosting receptions for veterans following the ceremonies. Citizens of Regina are in for a very special treat on June 5. They're going to have a visit by Princess Anne, the Princess Royal. The list of celebrations goes on and on.

    You've all been sent an information kit, which includes the in-Canada events. It will have a backgrounder like this in it. I don't know if it actually hit your boxes, but we did get it out of the department, I think, yesterday. It will give you information on what's happening.

    Of course, it's critical to share the message with our veterans and Canadians about all of these events to recognize their efforts. Through public service ads, which are unpaid, in newspapers last fall, we encouraged D-Day and Normandy veterans to identify themselves to VAC. As a result, we now have 5,300 veterans from across Canada in our database. The good news here is that we're actually using this list, through our regional offices, to send personal invitations to veterans for events that are happening in their own provinces. In addition, we have media releases and website materials. We've sent the veterans special D-Day newsletters, and we've set up a special 1-800 telephone line specifically for D-Day inquiries.

    Overall, our communications have encouraged veterans and Canadians, especially young Canadians, to participate and to spread the word. We will hopefully encourage you today as well to join our effort. We continue to work closely with the media to reach Canadians who are not able to participate directly in the remembrance activities.

    While the focus of today's discussion is June 6, following D-Day and Battle of Normandy ceremonies we will honour the veterans of the Italian campaign for the second part of the calendar year and through Veterans Week. The veterans of the Italian campaign fought so bravely in very difficult conditions through 1943 and 1944. There is no question that our plans for Italy and for 2005, as we mark the 60th anniversary of the end of the Second World War, will benefit from the experience of D-Day and Normandy this June.

    In closing, I really do want to thank you for having us here today. Canada and the world will remember the sacrifices and contributions of D-Day and Battle of Normandy veterans on and around June 6. Again, I encourage you to attend ceremonies in your communities and to join us in thanks and remembering our veterans.

    We're happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: Thank you very much.

    As most of the committee members know, we also have on the committee John O'Reilly, a special assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I think we should recognize his leadership as a driving force for the Juno Beach Memorial Centre. Everybody in our caucus certainly knows that. I think most members of the House know the kind of hard work John has done on that.

    If I'm correct, you're part of the 60th anniversary celebration committee as well, Mr. O'Reilly.

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    Mr. John O'Reilly (Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, Lib.): Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. Is this going to cost me?

    The Chair: Well, maybe, I'll see. I'll tell you later.

    Mr. John O'Reilly: I just want to know.

    The Chair: Did you have anything you wanted to add?

    Mr. John O'Reilly: The 60th anniversary committee is an advisory committee led by General Rohmer, Garth Webb, and various other people. I'm on it as the liaison for the minister and the liaison for the House of Commons. Our next meeting, probably our last meeting, is tomorrow morning. I'm just reading faxes and so forth from the Juno Beach Centre in France indicating what remains to be done by Veterans Affairs and other things. There are a few technical problems, as there always are, but I think generally it's in pretty good shape.

    The Chair: Good. Thank you very much.

    Before we go to questions, I'm wondering how many of my colleagues here have had a chance to be on what I guess they call a pilgrimage, a trip with the veterans. I know I have. That's great. I knew there would be some. Let me highly recommend it to any other colleague who gets a chance at any time.

    I was fortunate enough to be representing the Minister of Defence in 1999 on a pilgrimage to Normandy and some places in England, and I want to say what an outstanding trip that was. The minister at that time was Fred Mifflin. I believe your department does an outstanding job when you organize those trips. I saw the shepherding of the veterans. Some of the MPs on it needed help more than the veterans, I think, but it was very highly organized. The veterans were extremely pleased and touched to be there.

    So I want to compliment Veterans Affairs for the fantastic effort you put into those trips. I think it's the least we can do for our veterans, and your department does it extremely well.

    With that commercial, I'll turn it over to Mr. Hill to start the questioning.

    Mr. Jay Hill: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and yes, we will consider that a pre-election ad for Mr. O'Reilly.

    Welcome to the committee. I appreciate the opportunity not only for the update but to pose some questions.

    First I want to say on behalf of the official opposition, the Conservative Party of Canada, that we certainly support this initiative, though we do have some questions about it. We want to ensure that any problems there have been in the past for similar pilgrimages don't recur, and obviously you do as well. That's why I'm very pleased that you made the unequivocal statement in your opening remarks: “First and foremost, let me say that this event is for and about veterans.” I hope at some time in the future I'll have the privilege, because it would be an incredible privilege, to travel anywhere with veterans, let alone on such a pilgrimage as this.

    As I said, there have been some problems in the past. One of the things I raised when the minister appeared before a televised committee meeting was my concern about the ratio of veterans to what I'll just call others. I wanted to ensure that whatever money the taxpayer is spending on this is really targeted to providing cost support to the veterans or, arguably, supportive personnel. Obviously, they're going to require some people to go along with them, guests or family, government people to support the initiative and make sure everything goes off like clockwork.

    There was nothing in your briefing materials about the total cost of the French portion, the overseas activities for the D-Day commemoration, and what proportion actually supports our veterans. We don't want to see something such as we have seen occasionally in the past, where it would appear that politicians or bureaucrats were jumping on the plane and flying over in business class quite comfortably or staying in nice hotels, while the veterans didn't receive quite the same treatment.

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    Ms. Verna Bruce: We agree with you that the veterans, for whom we're doing this, deserve to have the best treatment, and I can assure you they will.

    The total cost estimate we have at this stage of the game for the return to Normandy is about $1.6 million. It's an unusual amount, and one of the things we're struggling with this time that we've never had to do before is security, into which we're putting about $480,000. This is part of living in the post-September 11 world. We've never had to do this before. We're very grateful for support from the RCMP, Parks Canada, National Defence, and our own staff, but we have just huge costs for security.

    Veteran travel and accommodation works out to about $600,000. We have a relatively small number of parliamentarians. Again, we haven't had the final tally in, but the focus will definitely be on veterans. For those of you who are travelling, I hope we don't offend you in any way if we demonstrate that.

    We do have some money we're spending in Canada, but you weren't asking me about that. And there is about $89,000 for things like wreaths, setting up the media centre over there, and the exchange rate, which keeps going up and down and throwing our budget into great disarray

    Mr. Jay Hill: The euro?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Yes.

    That would give you a general overview. The other part is about $400,00 for in-Canada purposes.

    Mr. Jay Hill: Thank you for that.

    From your document, I understand that 60 vets will be part of the official delegation. Hopefully, as you say, 1,000 or more will participate in Normandy. Those 60 will have their costs covered.

    Ms. Verna Bruce: They will, completely.

    Mr. Jay Hill: Are those 60 actual D-Day veterans?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: They are.

    Mr. Jay Hill: That's perfect.

    There are the 60 veterans. I'm assuming that perhaps some guests or family will be travelling with our veterans in a supportive role. How many support personnel from the department or outside agencies will be assisted financially by the taxpayers in support of these 60 vets?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Most of the people who are travelling will be part of that security. The number I was shown for RCMP, Parks Canada, National Defence, and our department runs to about 70 people altogether. In addition, from our own staff, we're trying to send over a couple of doctors, some orderlies from Ste. Anne's Hospital, and nurses. We've been very grateful. My understanding is that National Defence is trying to find some of their uniformed people who also have a medical background. So it's an opportunity to try to make sure we provide good support.

    Part of the problem is that we're not looking after 60 veterans. We know that when we get there, we'll be looking after 2,000 veterans. If anyone from Canada runs into any kind of problem, whether it's lost luggage or a medical problem, we'll be there to help them. So we know that our little contingent will be really looking after 2,000 80-year-olds, which is actually kind of daunting.

    Mr. Jay Hill: I appreciate that.

    This is quite likely outside your purview. Do you know the size of the delegation that the Governor General and the Prime Minister intend to take?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: I have no idea.

    Mr. Jay Hill: I'd like to serve notice that Canadians will be watching to make sure that the focus is on the veterans, as it should be.

    Do I have any time left?

    The Chair: You have another minute.

    Mr. Jay Hill: Do you want to ask a question, Rick?

    The Chair: Mr. Casson.

    Mr. Rick Casson (Lethbridge, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    Sixty veterans have been chosen to go, and I appreciate the way that was done. But you indicated that 1,500 of these forms were returned to you. I have seen one of those forms. It asks about special diet, medication, your ability to walk, etc. What responsibility will you have for these folks? There is an official delegation of veterans, along with the Prime Minister and the Governor General. But who is going to be responsible for the 1,500 people who have sent in these forms? You've asked the questions of them, so they are obviously expecting some support from VAC.

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    Ms. Verna Bruce: The staff who are part of our official delegation will be available to help those folks as well, and the 70 people I mentioned who are part of security are also responsible for assisting other Canadians. We will have more staff than we've ever had before on a pilgrimage, but hopefully it will be enough.

[Translation]

    The Chair: You have seven minutes, Mr. Bachand.

    Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While I have the floor, I'd like to take the opportunity to welcome my French counterparts. It's always a pleasure to have them here with us.

    I was among those who were somewhat critical of the overall operation because of the considerable time taken to plan the events. As recently as last week, or two weeks ago, people were still wondering how the ceremonies in Normandy were going to unfold.

    I'm pleased that we're finally meeting today to learn the details. I do, however, have one concern that I hope you can alleviate. For security reasons cited by the French government, veterans had until April 16 to complete the necessary travel forms you spoke of. Therefore, I'd like to know if the 60 designated veterans have already been selected by their squadrons and regiments. Have the selections been made? If so, I would imagine that they completed the forms prior to April 16. However, if someone in my riding wanted to...

    When I return to my riding, someone might approach me and inform me of his wish to attend these ceremonies. Will that person be told that he's too late, because the April 16 deadline has already passed?

[English]

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Certainly in terms of the people who are representing the official regiments, they would have been selected by now, because they do have a process that they go through within their own regimental associations.

    In terms of the date of April 16, I'll turn to Doug, who has just come back from France, who may be able to answer your question about late filing of that form.

    Mr. Doug Clorey (Director General, 60th Anniversary Task Force, Department of Veterans Affairs): With respect to the travel forms, which are really about ensuring that Canadians have access to our ceremonies, particularly the binational ceremony and the international ceremony, we will be forwarding these forms right up until the last minute.

    Initially, the French government had said mid-April. Now they're saying mid-May. In the end, it's to their advantage to have all of the names of all of the Canadians up until the last minute. They will not be producing the accreditation passes until June 4 or 5, so we will just be getting them a couple of days before the events.

[Translation]

    Mr. Claude Bachand: I see.

    Earlier, you talked about the people who would be accompanying the veterans, medical personnel and so forth. However, you also mentioned in your presentation that young people from across Canada have been selected to take part in the ceremonies.

    Will they be travelling on the same aircraft? Will you be using a CF Airbus? I imagine the government will also be picking up the tab for these young persons.

[English]

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Yes, there are 13 youths, one from each province and territory. They're a combination of cadets and students from the Canada encounters program. The 13 of them are part of the official delegation, and yes, their costs will be paid.

[Translation]

    Mr. Claude Bachand: I have one final question. Could MPs possibly get a list of the 60 veterans selected to attend the ceremonies, along with the names of their regiments and squadrons?

[English]

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Once we have that finalized, we'll do that.

    Doug.

    Mr. Doug Clorey: What we basically need is the permission of each of the veterans who have been chosen to release their information under the access to information legislation. That should be available within the next few days.

[Translation]

    Mr. Claude Bachand: I'm not interested in the veterans' medical history. I just want to know their names and the names of their regiments or squadrons. I really don't think we should have to go through Access to Information to find that out.

    Also, if I understood correctly, these 60 veterans all took part in either D-Day or the Battle of Normandy. They all are members of squadrons or regiments that landed on this beach.

    I have no further questions.

[English]

    The Chair: Merci, monsieur Bachand.

    Does anyone on the government side have questions?

    Mr. O'Reilly.

    Mr. John O'Reilly: I wonder if we could have an update, because you have just returned from Normandy, on if there are any problems of a major variety that have to be resolved. I'm going to go to a meeting tomorrow and will probably hear that, but I think the members should hear that.

    I know there's a problem with security. Could you perhaps elaborate on that?

º  (1620)  

    Mr. Doug Clorey: Well, as our associate deputy minister has mentioned, the whole issue around security and transportation in the Normandy area has been difficult since the beginning of our planning and continues to be so. However, as a result of our most recent discussions with the Government of France officials, who include individuals in the area of security and transportation, they assure us that they will, in fact, have all of the transportation needs of the Canadians who will be wanting to get to Juno Beach Centre met. They are putting into place 220 buses to transport veterans from the Caen area to the Juno Beach Centre, because the whole area around the Juno Beach Centre will be secured.

    One of the things that have changed as a result of the meetings recently is that we had hoped there would be one Canadian reception centre where all Canadians would be able to go, whether they were veterans or just Canadians in general. The French are now proposing something quite different, where there will be a reception centre for veterans, but it will be for all nations. So there'll be a reception centre for veterans, with a Canadian section and an American section and a British section. There'll be a second reception centre for those who have formally been invited, similarly divided up by nations, and also one for the general public.

    Again, this is probably workable, but it's an additional stress on our ability to be able to respond to these changes at the last minute. It basically means that we will have to have staff now in three reception centres, rather than one. That's probably one of the most significant developments that have occurred in the last week or so.

    We're assured by the French government that transportation will not be an issue. They will put the buses in place to get us transported.

    Also, since our ceremony on June 6 is the first one, essentially, of the nations that are doing them on June 6, we will have priority for the ceremony at 10 o'clock in the morning.

    Mr. John O'Reilly: The other question I had, Mr. Chair, is, did you indicate that the dates for registration have been extended for people who are going over? I was sent back information on two students who are going from the Peterborough area, sponsored by Wal-Mart. They said they were told that they couldn't register because they'd missed the date. So that has been extended....

    Mr. Doug Clorey: Any forms that we receive we will be passing on to the French government, because it is absolutely essential that they have the names in advance or else it will have to be cleared on the day they arrive in France. We will be sending what we have when we get it.

    Mr. John O'Reilly: And the other point I had, Mr. Chair, was that the French have created some incredible websites, if any member wants to have a look at everything, because they have 81 days of celebration in France, and their website is 81 pages. I thought it said 18, and I went to run it off and used up all my paper. So if you want to know what's going on—I think there are even a couple of baptisms of babies over there that they've put in here—they have a great website. But don't run it off. I have it.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Price, there are three minutes for you.

    Hon. David Price (Compton—Stanstead, Lib.): Just a short question. Is there going to be a Canadian military band? And what would be the make-up, and how are the costs handled on that?

    Mr. Doug Clorey: Actually, the pipe band is the military band from the navy section, and it's being totally organized by the Department of National Defence. It is not part of our official delegation. They provide this as part of their service to our events.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Blaikie, please, seven minutes.

    Hon. Bill Blaikie (Winnipeg—Transcona, NDP): I was wondering where this pipe band from the navy is coming from, but anyway. It is not a pipe band. There is no pipe band. It's a military band. I'd like to register my objection on that. I had hoped there would at least be a piper for the ceremonies. Too bad.

    I was on the pilgrimage to the 75th anniversary of Vimy Ridge in 1992. Of course the Vimy vets were a lot older then, because it was a 75th anniversary rather than a 60th anniversary. But I'm glad to see that you're paying attention to the medical side of things. At that time everyone was required to have a chaperone, which tended to be generally a child of the vet. The children themselves tended to be around 70 or 65, because the youngest vet was 93 on that particular trip.

    But one of the things that I remember from that...and I was just going to raise this. I hope that in the place where they're staying there's a place where they can gather, because we stayed in more of a motel than a hotel near the Vimy memorial, and they all had to hang around in the lobby. I remember visiting with the Vimy vets, and even at night there was no place for people to go. There was no common room where we could sit, so we were sitting in the lobby of the hotel. I would certainly want to urge you to check and make sure that in whatever place you have them staying there's a common room or there's a place where people can gather in the evenings for conversation and storytelling and that sort of thing.

º  (1625)  

    Mr. Doug Clorey: I think that's an excellent point and observation, and we do ensure that there are common areas where veterans can gather.

    One of the things we've done as a first, and which we will be repeating for D-Day, is we will provide an opportunity, hosted by the veterans' organizations, for one evening for the veterans to have time to spend with their Canadian Forces colleagues—so no bureaucrats, no politicians. It is just a time for them to actually be together, share stories, and to actually share the experience between the older veterans and the younger veterans.

    We certainly recognize that the need is there to provide space for this to occur, but we've also found a need to be able to provide the space for current members of the forces who will be there and veterans to exchange as well.

    Good observation.

    Hon. Bill Blaikie: It was a problem, Mr. Chairman. I was sort of the unofficial piper to the delegation. I had to play my pipes in the lobby. There was the odd complaint from the management, so I took a vote among the Vimy vets whether I should quit playing or not. They were unanimous that we should ignore the wishes of management, and they said to me, “Play on”, and I did.

    I'm hopeful, Mr. Chairman, that from Winnipeg...I only know one D-Day vet very closely. Oddly enough, his name is Paul Martin from the Royal Winnipeg Rifles. In our community we refer to him as “the good Paul Martin”.

    Anyway, I'll be talking to him and I hope he'll be one of the people coming along. If he is, we'll have to make sure that he and the Prime Minister are introduced to each other, because he takes a lot of ribbing about his name. Yes, it would be a good photo op.

    I have no more questions.

    The Chair: Thanks, Mr. Blaikie.

    Now we'll go for five minutes and alternate as we always do. So it's back to Mr. Casson.

    Mr. Rick Casson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    What happens if other members of Parliament who aren't part of the official delegation want to go on this? They'll pay their own way, they'll get over there. If they were able to make those arrangements, would they be able to take part in the official aspect of this, or not?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: They wouldn't be able to be considered part of the official delegation, but there would certainly be opportunities at ceremonies where we were with other people for them to be a part of it.

    I don't know if we've had experiences like that before. Doug, I'll turn to you.

    Mr. Doug Clorey: Certainly all of our ceremonies are open to the public, particularly to all Canadians, and especially to parliamentarians and to others who happen to be there on their own. So there is absolutely no difficulty in participating in our official ceremonies. The only issue is that we have to make sure they have accommodations, which are now extremely tight, and that they have accreditation from the French, the same as everyone else.

º  (1630)  

    Mr. Rick Casson: So if there was somebody planning to do that, would they be strictly on their own, or would there be some direction from your offices in filling out the right forms for accreditation, and then--

    Mr. Doug Clorey: We can provide whatever support is required in terms of filling out forms and giving them itineraries of where the ceremonies will be and what they need to do, sure.

    Mr. Rick Casson: Very good.

    The other issue is the details of the official party. Will those be made available soon for those of us who are going and representing our parties or our constituents?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: There's actually a special briefing, for those of you who are going, next week on May 11 at 10:30 a.m., I believe, so there will be all kinds of details available for you at that stage of the game in terms of travel logistics and where you're staying and so on.

    Mr. Rick Casson: And at that time we'll get all of the basic details.

    I don't know if this is a question that I should ask you or one of the parliamentarians here from the opposite side, but if we are campaigning at that time, there could be some problems that way. Have there been any options or any variations being considered by you to accommodate those of us who may be there but who may have to get back?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: All I can say is that I can't really comment on that. We're hoping that people will be able to be there. The transportation we've arranged is definitely group transportation, so if somebody came over with us as part of the group and wanted to go back, you'd probably be on your own for getting back.

    Mr. Rick Casson: All right, that's all I have.

    The Chair: Yes, do you want to comment, sir?

    Mr. Robert Mercer (Executive Director, Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs): In terms of information generally, the aspect of the Normandy events in Canada are absolutely huge, beyond anything that I think we've seen in recent time in this country. So for any of the MPs who are interested in the at-home events in their own communities, our minister, as Verna mentioned, did do a mailing this week of all of the events. We're going to be following that up with a lot more information so that all of you will know the details of the event you are interested in participating in. We would encourage the participation as well. And that's in Canada.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    There are a couple of minutes still, if you want them, Mr. Anders.

    Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, CPC): I have to admit that when I started listening to all of this, I didn't think I'd have any questions, but one thing does intrigue me. I understand 60 veterans, one for each year of the anniversary...I understand that. But did I catch you correctly when you said there'd be 70 staff?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Actually, the figure of 60 veterans is just a coincidence. It just happens to be one from each of the regimental associations that were involved in the battle. The 70 staff are people from the RCMP, Parks Canada, National Defence, and Veterans Affairs Canada who are required to be on the ground to help with the security around these 2,000 Canadian veterans who are going to be there. So they'll be looking after folks, trying to direct traffic, providing security, and making sure people have passes.

    Other countries will be doing similar types of staff support.

    Mr. Rob Anders: So am I to take it that there will be 2,000 Canadian veterans in total, and you're only paying directly for 60?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Yes. We're expecting between 1,500 and 2,000.

    Mr. Rob Anders: I see.

    All right, that's all I have, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: Anybody on this side?

    Mr. O'Reilly.

    Mr. John O'Reilly: Perhaps you could tell us how many people have registered in the self-registration program.

    Ms. Verna Bruce: We actually put out an ad in the fall, I think, and we had 5,300 D-Day veterans self-identify across the country. As well, 1,500 veterans returned the information forms indicating that they're interested in going over to France. We're assuming that if we had 1,500 a few weeks ago, there'll be some last-minute ones. So the number probably will be higher than 1,500.

    Mr. John O'Reilly: And there are some who have registered who are already there, or who are travelling. They're not part of the delegation, but they may show up that day.

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Oh, I'm sure they will.

    Mr. John O'Reilly: I have had e-mails from people asking how you register, and the e-mails are from France.

    Thank you.

    The Chair: Mrs. Wayne, please.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: I had a call today just before question period from a veteran in P.E.I.

    You will recall, Verna and Pat, that I was over in Dieppe, France. I have had a couple of trips with the veterans.

    Now, this veteran was very concerned about the veterans who were going because of their having to be two to a room in the hotel. He was very upset about that. He said some may like two to a room, but not everybody likes that; it doesn't work out well. He asked me, are they looking after us this time? When I asked him what he meant, he said, well, as you'll recall, we were in a hotel that was so hot.... And I do remember that. It was Mr. Mifflin at the time. It was a hotel downtown. The veteran said, we didn't have any air conditioning, and when they put us outside, they sat us in the sun, but all the officials and everybody had covers over where they were seated, so the sun wasn't at them.

    Now, Verna, I don't know if you remember, but we had a gentleman, when I was over there, who collapsed. All the time I was there, I wheeled him in the wheelchair. They called his wife to bring her over, but she had to pay her way over. When she got there, they didn't allow her to stay in the same hotel as that veteran. And this veteran must have been with us, because he remembers that.

    So these are things that we have to make sure are corrected.

    I remember also that the cadets came to me and asked me if I could get them an iron and an ironing board. I went down to the desk and they gave me an iron. The iron was like the one my great-grandmother had. I heated it on the stove and took the whole rear end out of my dress.

    Remember, Verna? It took the whole end out of my dress. I kept that dress.

    Finally I got in touch with Mr. Tobin, and he went down and got a proper iron. But you see, that was in the other hotel.

    So we have to make sure the veterans are put in a hotel that is stated as number one, where they have air conditioning, where they do have an iron and an ironing board for the cadets and everything else. And when they go out there, if they're going to sit on the beach, we have to make sure that they do have some kind of seating arrangement whereby they're not going to be in the sun.

    That's all I'm asking, Verna.

º  (1635)  

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Sure. We are travelling with lots of umbrellas and water, so the shade will be resolved.

    We're not staying at the same hotel. Doug actually has some experience with the hotel where the veterans will be staying, so I'll let him fill you in.

    Mr. Doug Clorey: The hotel we're staying at is L'Amiraute in Deauville. The downside is that it's about half an hour to 45 minutes away from the Normandy beaches. The upside is that it has North American-type standards. The rooms are air-conditioned. There are lots of opportunities for gathering, as the other member was mentioning.

    So we think the hotel will be very comfortable for the veterans. It's more trouble getting people back and forth because of the distance, but we certainly recognize what you have raised.

    In terms of awning, just to give you a sense of the expanded scope of our work, for all of our ceremonies the veterans will be provided with seating, number one, and they will be provided with shade. We've basically provided enough seats and awning for 450 to 500 veterans. Again, we've expanded that well beyond our delegation, knowing that in June it can be very hot in Normandy.

    So we're trying to accommodate those needs.

    Mrs. Elsie Wayne: Okay.

    I remember when I was there, Mr. Chair, we went up into the French cemetery to have a service that night. I was wheeling that gentleman, that veteran who had collapsed, and all of a sudden this lady came over and said, “Oh, darling, there you are; oh, my God.” I thought, oh, we're in real trouble now; he's married back home in Ontario, and he has a woman up here. What am I going to do? But it was his wife, who'd flown over there.

    Thank you, Verna.

    I have to go to another meeting, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: I made a little mistake; I want to go to our friend Monsieur Bachand. There will be lots of time for all the members.

    Monsieur Bachand.

[Translation]

    Mr. Claude Bachand: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I do not wish to question the scope of the festivities commemorating D-Day and the Battle of Normandy, since this was a turning point in World War II.

    I am somewhat concerned, however, about the veterans of the Italian Campaign. The Italian Campaign is not as well known. People have always heard about the Normandy landing, but increasingly, we're hearing about the Italian Campaign. You stated in your opening remarks that your plans for Italy will benefit from the experience of Normandy.

    I'm curious as to what the department has in mind. Is it planning to commemorate the Italian Campaign on a similar scale? Is it planning to send a similar-sized delegation? While we have many French descendants in our ridings, we also have many people of Italian origin as well. I wouldn't want veterans who fought in the Italian Campaign to feel like they were second-class citizens compared to the veterans who fought in Normandy. I'd like you to reassure me on that score.

º  (1640)  

[English]

    Ms. Verna Bruce: We're very aware of and very concerned about that as well. Obviously, at this stage of the game we don't have very much time to go before June 6, so our efforts are concentrated there. But we have been planning the Italian campaign as well. We will be doing an event in Italy. At this stage of the game, we're looking at a couple of options, which we'll be presenting to the minister for his review, but definitely we will be doing something appropriate to commemorate Italy.

    You're right, it was a horrible campaign, and it lasted for a very long time, so we will be doing that. In fact, Doug spent a bit of time in Italy as well when he was in Europe doing some of the initial groundwork with the embassy there. So we will be making sure that we do an appropriate recognition.

    As well, we expect that the Italian campaign will become the theme for Veterans Week this year.

    Mr. Claude Bachand: Okay.

    The Chair: Mr. Hill.

    Mr. Jay Hill: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

    I just want to follow up on something, because I didn't hear the answer to the question posed by my colleague Mrs. Wayne.

    An hon. member: There will be ironing boards.

    Voices: Oh, oh!

    The Chair: Go ahead, Mr. Hill.

    Mr. Jay Hill: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for trying to restore some order on his exaltedness on the other side there.

    I was pleased to hear Mr. Clorey indicate that the hotel will be a North American-style hotel. I've travelled in Europe, as I'm sure everyone around the room has; we know the difference between a standard European-style hotel versus a North American one in the sense of, I guess, creature comforts. But I was concerned when Mrs. Wayne raised the issue that the vets are going to be two to a room.

    Is that correct?

    Ms. Verna Bruce: Some of the veterans are actually travelling with companions, so they do want to be two to a room.

    Mr. Jay Hill: Naturally.

    No, I mean for those who--

    Ms. Verna Bruce: For those who aren't, I'll turn that over to Doug, because there probably will be some who are travelling on their own.

    Mr. Doug Clorey: It's always a difficult issue for us, because part of the reasoning for having two to a room is that, because of the age of the veterans, it provides a bit of a safety valve in case something happens to either one of the veterans.

    What we try to do is to be very sensitive to their needs. If a particular veteran--and by the way, we're in continual contact with each of the veterans who participate in our delegation--in fact indicates a very strong reservation about sharing a room with someone, we would address that in whatever appropriate way there was, but our general policy is that we would have two veterans to a room, simply because of wanting to ensure the safety of one or the other. So it's basically working as comrades, if you will, in the hotel setting.

    We do recognize that there are issues, because some people don't wish to share a room, and we try to be as responsive as we can to those requests.

    Mr. Jay Hill: I guess I'll just end by saying that I hope you're showing the same amount of concern for the staff people who are travelling; therefore, I'm sure they'll share a room as well.

    I appreciate what you're saying. I think the safety is obviously a legitimate concern, but please bear in mind that some of these gentleman could prefer to have a room to themselves. If, in light of your opening comments, this is about them, then let's ensure that their wishes are respected.

    The Chair: I'd like to make a comment, because I've had the privilege, as Jay said, to be on one of these pilgrimages and a second smaller one.

    I guess we'd like to think this would go off without a single complaint, but we know right now that's not going to happen. On the pilgrimage I was on, there were vets. These are men who went to war and are pretty strong willed. Women vets were on the trip as well. It's just not possible to get 60 people, whoever, to agree on everything when you're going on a thing like this.

    There were disagreements among the vets themselves. They told me, and they were sharing that with the other MPs. They were very pleased there were some MPs on the trip, because I made a point of asking them. They said at the time...not necessarily me, but it was really great to see some MPs. I think there was someone from the Bloc, and Peter Goldring from the then Reform Party, so there were three or four MPs on the trip. It very much was that we were in the background, as it should have been.

    I did as Elsie did; I just befriended some of the vets and helped in any way I could with some of the ones who needed a little help. Smokey Smithwas on that trip, and anybody who has met Smokey Smith will never forget meeting him. What an outstanding hero he is, a Canadian hero.

    As I said at the start, I've had the privilege to be on one, and I just think these folks, frankly, do a great job.

    When we look back on this trip, there will have been some complaints. It's just not possible to satisfy all the people for everything, whether it's rooms or whatever it is. But I think some valid points have been raised. You certainly noted them, and I just want to assure my colleagues who haven't had a chance to be on one of these things that I think every effort is made. The care for the vets was outstanding.

    Mr. Anders asked about there being 70 staff. You're not going to take Canadian veterans overseas and not take enough people to have it handled properly. If you need 80 staff, take them. It doesn't bother me that you take 70 staff. I've been on one of those. These are elderly people. A number of them have health issues, or multiple health issues in some cases. I just repeat what my own experience was.

    Obviously it's a non-partisan comment. I'm making it about you, but it was an outstanding effort, and yes, there were some disagreements. Some vets wanted this and some wanted that. You literally can't please everybody.

    So I thank you for sharing what you have. As I say, I commend the efforts. I think, though, some valid points have been raised on both sides, and you've obviously made note of them.

    Now I'll just see if anyone else has comments or questions.

    Mr. O'Reilly.

º  (1645)  

    Mr. John O'Reilly: I just want to reassure you. I have stayed at the hotel in Deauville, and it's a fine hotel. It has air conditioning and really neat gathering areas. There's a bar--about the size of this room, actually--with a sitting area, so you don't have to participate in the bar, and that's usually where we gathered. It's a good modern hotel.

    It also has the strangest things you'll ever see in a hotel. If you go to the top floor, there's actually a trolley that goes outside...connects one to the other. I didn't know what it was but it was the strangest thing I ever saw. You don't have to walk outside. You could take this trolley that actually runs.... It's like a monorail. I played on it for days. It was fun.

    But it's a good hotel. The only disadvantage is that it's a long way from ceremonies, so you have spend time on the buses; but they're air conditioned and have their own washrooms.

    I will comment that a lot of the veterans have their caregivers, but when you try to get along with them.... I already talked to one who's not going to stay in Deauville. He says it's too far away and he doesn't want to be there. The guy can hardly walk; he has two artificial knees and a hip replacement. So he's staying downtown where there's no air conditioning, and that's what he wants to do.

    So you're going to have disagreements and people who get their backs up, and there's nothing you can do about that. You'll hear complaints and you have to analyze them as you go.

    Mr. Jay Hill: I have just a final comment, Mr. Chairman, to reinforce what you're saying. I don't want to leave the wrong impression with our guests and witnesses. It's only out of concern for and interest in the vets themselves that I raise these issues. I take this responsibility as a parliamentarian to the highest possible degree.

    I'm pleased for those of you who have had the privilege of going on something like this, and pleased to hear of the care that you do try to provide for our vets. I was just commenting earlier to my colleague, our Veterans Affairs critic Mr. Casson, that in some respects, when you consider what a mammoth undertaking this is--and I'm looking beyond Canada to the French; I've even heard the Germans are going to be involved in this, at least to some extent, as well as the Americans, I'm assuming, and the British and Australians, everybody who was involved with D-Day--it must be just an unbelievable logistical nightmare to try to organize it.

    As the chairman has indicated, I'm sure there are going to be some hitches. There have to be some hitches even in events much smaller than this. I just said to Mr. Casson that probably the planning going into this is not unlike the planning to actually conduct the original Operation Overlord invasion.

    So my hat's off to you. You've heard our concerns. I think they are legitimate and heartfelt--from the right place--on both sides, and I wish you well.

º  (1650)  

    The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Hill.

    Are there any final comments? We just hope there's better weather than there was 60 years ago for the real invasion.

    Ms. Verna Bruce: I thank you very much for the opportunity to be here. We really appreciate being able to tell you what we're doing. We're really grateful for all of your comments that recognize the efforts of our staff, because people are working so hard on this. When the staff are over there, sleep is not something they get. They literally work about 20 hours a day. So I'm really pleased to take your comments back; they will really make people feel good.

    On the in-Canada events, I encourage you to do as much as you can to encourage people in your constituencies to come out and recognize the veterans who live and work in their own communities.

    Thank you. It's been wonderful, and we have taken note your very valid concerns.

    The Chair: Good. Thank you very much.

    The meeting is adjourned.