LANG Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 3rd SESSION

Standing Committee on Official Languages

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Wednesday, May 12, 2004

º

1640

Mr. Daniel Gourd (Executive Vice-President, French Television, CBC/Radio-Canada)

º

1645

The Chair

Mr. James Lunney (Nanaimo—Alberni, CPC)

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. James Lunney

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. James Lunney

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. James Lunney

The Chair

Mr. Christian Jobin (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Christian Jobin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

º

1650

Mr. Christian Jobin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Christian Jobin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Christian Jobin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Christian Jobin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Christian Jobin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Christian Jobin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ)

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

º

1655

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Daniel Gourd

»

1700

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.)

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Daniel Gourd

M. Michel Tremblay (vice-président, Stratégie et développement commercial, CBC/Radio-Canada)

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Tremblay

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Michel Tremblay

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

»

1705

M. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP)

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

»

1710

Mr. Yvon Godin

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.)

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Michel Tremblay

»

1715

Mr. Daniel Gourd

M. Raymond Simard

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.)

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

»

1720

M. Michel Tremblay

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Ms. Yolande Thibeault

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Daniel Gourd

»

1725

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Marcel Proulx

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

Mr. Benoît Sauvageau

The Chair

»

1730

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Daniel Gourd

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

Mr. Christian Jobin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Yvon Godin

The Chair

Mr. Marcel Proulx

The Chair

---

CANADA

Standing Committee on Official Languages

---

NUMBER 014

l

3rd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

---

EVIDENCE

Wednesday, May 12, 2004

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

º  (1640)  

[Translation]

    Mr. Daniel Gourd (Executive Vice-President, French Television, CBC/Radio-Canada): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the committee.

    My name is Daniel Gourd, and joining me is Michel Tremblay.

    First, I wish to thank members of the committee for their interest in our efforts to better serve Canadians living in minority-language communities.

    As you know, our operations extend coast to coast, and are unparalleled by any other French-language broadcaster. They include eight television stations, a network of 180 over-the-air rebroadcasters that reaches 98.6 percent of Francophones. Our journalists are based permanently in at least 40 communities. No other Canadian broadcaster has as many news offices and journalists outside major cities. Lastly, we operate the only journalistic offices west of the Ottawa River and in eastern Quebec. In addition, we of course have services provided by French radio's 20 stations and 14 journalistic offices, the specialty networks, Réseau de l'information and ARTV, in which we, as you know, are the managing partner, and our radio-canada.ca Web site, which ranks among the top media Web sites in Canada. This wide array of services speaks for our exceptional contribution to the lives of Francophones in this country.

    Over the course of our meetings, we have built on a dialogue that I believe has provided you with an opportunity to better appreciate the way in which we operate and the extent to which we often have to make decisions under difficult circumstances.

    We are particularly grateful to Committee members for supporting satellite distribution of our regional services. The recommendation included in your report titled Role and Responsibilities of the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission in Developments in the Area of Official Languages in Canada was no doubt instrumental in the CRTC's positive decision rendered earlier this year.

    In accordance with such decision of the CRTC, CBC/Radio-Canada must enjoy parity with the main private broadcaster in each of the two linguistic markets. To meet parity needs, DBS providers will therefore be required to offer at least one CBC/Radio-Canada French-language station and one English-language station in each of Canada's five time zones.

    Indeed, we have noticed positive results since the inclusion of our Ottawa stations in Star Choice's offering, and those of Winnipeg on both satellite platforms. Based on the latest market surveys this past spring, there has been a noticeable increase in viewership, thereby reversing the declining trend of the past few years and confirming our apprehensions that, without satellite broadcasting, many Francophones, who are scattered over vast areas, would not have access to their Radio-Canada signal. This pleases both our audiences and our employees very much.

    However, while this marks a step in the right direction to serve all our communities better, work remains to be done. We must ensure that DBS providers abide by the CRTC decision, and we must make every effort to ensure that Francophones in the Outaouais and greater Quebec City areas have access to their CBC/Radio-Canada regional stations on both satellite platforms, even though the CRTC did not make such a requirement mandatory for Star Choice and ExpressVu. We feel this is a socio-political and historical anomaly. As you can see, we are still greatly concerned by satellite access to our regional stations.

    Consistent with our goal to continue providing more services to our regions, we have gone ahead over the past few months with a major overhaul of our internal operations.

    First, we have changed the way in which we review program proposals by ensuring that regional producers deal directly with those responsible for each of our programming areas. As a result, there is now better project follow-up, coupled with direct access to decision makers.

    In addition, I appointed Manitoba native Richard Simoens, who was born in St. Boniface—to the position of General Manager of Regional Operations. He will be based in Ottawa. This is the only branch of Radio-Canada's French network that will not be based in Montreal. We thought it extremely important to locate it in Ottawa so that the branch has roots in the region and is not absorbed by the very “high pressure” Montreal psychology and sociology.

    Assisting Mr. Simoens will be André Poirier, who, after successfully developing in-house and outside productions at our Quebec City stations, where he was director for 12 years, has been tasked with supporting Mr. Simoens and doing the same for all our regional stations. So he will handle in-house production development at the regional stations and will work with independent producers in various regions of the country.

º  (1645)  

    Lastly, over the course of last year, we revamped part of the membership of the French Television Regional Panel, an organization comprising some 20 representatives of all the Francophone communities across the country out of a concern to provide better representation, rotating representation of the various communities. The panel will meet twice a year with French television's entire senior management.

    I am hopeful that, under Mr. Simoens' leadership, and with measures recently put in place, we will succeed in giving new momentum to our services in the regions.

    As a final point, I wish to take this opportunity to inform you that we are currently working on a plan to improve our local and regional services, in response to the Canadian Heritage Standing Committee Report titled Our Cultural Sovereignty: The Second Century of Canadian Broadcasting. The report recommended that we develop proposals and indicate the additional funding required for their implementation. We should be in a position to have this plan ready in the coming months.

    We thank you for your attention, and we will now be pleased to answer your questions.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    I would like to tell you personally that, Beethoven's fifth symphony could not have sounded more beautiful than part of your speech, perhaps even all of it. Let's hope it works.

    Mr. Lunney.

[English]

    Mr. James Lunney (Nanaimo—Alberni, CPC): Merci.

    This may have been in your report, but just to clarify, did I understand you to say that you're now offering French broadcasting in all of Canada's five regions?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: No. The CRTC has imposed upon the satellite distributors the requirement to put on a satellite at least one signal, in the five different time zones, for both languages.

    Mr. James Lunney: Oh, okay. I just came in from the furthest time zone yesterday, so maybe that's why I'm a little slow.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: From west to east or from east to west?

    Mr. James Lunney: From west to east, yes.

    Can you tell us how many hours of broadcasting is available, then, on...or is that already available? Is it full and complete programming, or is it part of the day, with only so many hours of broadcasting a day?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: The French network broadcasts between 6,500 and 6,800 hours of television each year. And RDI is a 24-hour news service. So 24 multiplied by 365 gives you the amount. We're there all the time.

    Mr. James Lunney: Excellent. I appreciate those clarifications.

    I'll pass, Mr. Chair.

[Translation]

    The Chair: All right.

    Mr. Jobin.

    Mr. Christian Jobin (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, Lib.): I have a brief question on...

    The Chair: Fellow members, if you agree, I will limit everyone to a maximum of five minutes since we have to finish before we go and vote later.

    Thank you. Go ahead.

    Mr. Christian Jobin: I have a brief question on Radio-Canada's participation in the Dictée des Amériques. You took part in it until this year. I was the Heritage minister's representative, and I admit that a number of people were disappointed not to see Radio-Canada there. Especially since Télé-Québec was notified virtually at the last minute and had to incur additional expenses—nearly $20,000 to $25,000—to set up and broadcast the Dictée des Amériques.

    I would like to know Radio-Canada's intention. Does it want to withdraw from that broadcast, or does it want to continue contributing to it? It represents roughly two hours a year during which the Dictée des Amériques can be broadcast to a number of countries around the world,

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: First I would point out that we aren't the only national broadcaster capable of broadcasting that event. TVA also broadcasts across the country and TFO, together with Télé-Québec, could broadcast it as well. I would also point out that TV5 broadcasts the Dictée des Amériques nationally. So the event can be broadcast by someone else than us.

    What happened this year is that we normally broadcast the Dictée des Amériques on Saturday afternoon. It takes two hours, and there are not a lot of available time slots for national broadcast. We obviously couldn't do it on Sunday afternoon because of the quality and importance of the public affairs programs we had at that time. As for Saturday afternoon, we thought we would withdraw Adrénaline and replace it with the Dictée, but we thought that posed a problem in view of the fact that amateur sport is a major priority for us. The big problem is that we normally did it from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m., but now some very important regional programs are broadcast across the network every Saturday. So, from 12:30 or 1:00 p.m. until 4:00 p.m., there are regional programs. The regional directors preferred to broadcast their own programs and the usual network programs rather than broadcast the Dictée des Amériques in that time slot, which was available, and we respected their decision.

    We thought their judgment was valid in the circumstances. Having regard to the importance of that broadcast—these are all cultural programs, public affairs programs, everything that happens across the country that we redistribute across the country every week—we suggested that they postpone it for a week, but they preferred to keep their regular programs, and thus to keep the viewers from the regions and across the country for those programs, which they thought were more important that the Dictée des Amériques.

    For next year, we can't assume anything, but that nevertheless represents two hours in a year compared to the rest of our contributions. We're not saying we won't be there next year: that will depend a little on what we have to offer instead of the Dictée.

    I only want to point out that we are not the only ones who can broadcast this kind of event.

º  (1650)  

    Mr. Christian Jobin: You're nevertheless a pioneer in this kind of program. I don't really see TVA doing the same thing.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Tell me why.

    Mr. Christian Jobin: Because, in the circumstances, you're more stuck with your image.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Yes, but when you are a national network, you have national obligations. Look at what we're doing compared to TVA: it's like the elephant and the mouse.

    However, perhaps it's time that the political world stopped putting pressure just on Radio-Canada and started to put it on broadcasters that have also earned the privilege, but that are absolutely not discharging their responsibilities in that respect.

    Mr. Christian Jobin: I would prefer Radio-Canada to stay around.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We're still here, of course, but perhaps it's time others contributed to La Francophonie.

    Mr. Christian Jobin: This program is a major contribution to La Francophonie. It's a dictation which is broadcast to all Francophone countries, I think it's important for you to be involved.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Yes, I understand.

    Mr. Christian Jobin: You have a year to think about it. This year, I was disappointed to see you weren't there. I represented the Heritage minister, and when I arrived, people jumped at me to tell me that Radio-Canada wasn't there. I answered that I would look into the matter, and I had intended to contact you. So I'm glad you're here today and that we can clarify the matter. I think it's important for you to be involved next year to make your contribution to the event.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: I understand you.

    The Chair: Do you have a final question? Ask it quickly.

    Mr. Christian Jobin: My question concerns La Soirée du hockey.

    As you know, there was a whole outcry when you decided to withdraw from it. I read somewhere that the agreement with RDS had been renegotiated for next year.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Under the agreement, we can renegotiate it starting in the second year. We've just sent notice to RDS that we would like to renegotiate the agreement, which we feel is not satisfactory. Continuing to enforce the contract as it now stands would be tantamount to gross mismanagement of public funds.

    Furthermore, the president of RDS, Mr. Frappier, and I agreed in talks we had in January that, notwithstanding the outcome of our talks and the results of our negotiations, we would guarantee to Francophones outside Quebec that we would broadcast the Saturday night hockey game, whether it's produced by RDS for the RDS network alone or by the two networks combined.

    Broadcast booth technology now enables us to distribute the signal we want on any network. So we can assure Francophones outside Quebec who don't have access to RDS that they'll have access to that hockey game. That's a minimum that has been acquired by Francophones outside Quebec. As for the other issues, things must be done through commercial negotiation, as is normal in this type of circumstance. Hockey is quite clearly a commercial product now.

    The Chair: Mr. Sauvageau, over to you.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau (Repentigny, BQ): Mr. Jobin sort of stole the subject of my question.

    I'm nevertheless going to talk about TVA and Radio-Canada. In the case of the Dictée des Amériques, the difference is that the TVA station is a private broadcaster. It receives fewer subsidies from the government, if I'm not mistaken. So if we want it to have equal obligations, it should no doubt receive equal amounts. It seems to me we're talking about two comparable broadcasters.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: No, I understand, but nevertheless...

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I'm not accusing anyone.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Even if it's private, a station nevertheless has obligations. The air waves are public, and, as you know, TVA has received $2 billion in financing from the Caisse de dépôt et placement. Those are public funds. Furthermore, several tens of millions of dollars go into TVA's pockets every year through the Canadian Fund, Telefilm Canada, tax credits and so on. All television networks are now in a mixed public and private financing mode. It's only the difference between all the television networks that...

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Obligations no doubt depend on where the funds come from.

    To continue in Mr. Jobin's wake, I'm going to come back to La Soirée du hockey. A little earlier, we discussed the subject informally. You were here in July 2002, I believe, when we had an emergency meeting to try to save that program. But you're saying today that it's a commercial product, and I would be inclined to be of that view. However, you recognize that program's importance for Francophones who live across Canada.

    I would like you to say exactly how someone in Manitoba who does not receive RDS could receive that program with the new technology. Would it be on Radio-Canada?

    Based on what you say, the current agreement between RDS and Radio-Canada is a very bad one. Can you tell us, without negotiating in public, of course—this is a public meeting, not an in camera meeting, and I know you won't tell us what you want to see in the final agreement—what could result in an agreement that's not too bad, and is indeed acceptable?

    From what I understand, you're telling us today that the public has no reason to be concerned about the contract: in any case, it's going to obtain the product. Is that what we are to understand?

º  (1655)  

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Yes. Mr. Frappier and I agreed that, if they were the only broadcasters in the Quebec environment, out of a concern to serve a number of communities outside the RDS broadcast area—and the fact that RDS admits it has a responsibility in this regard does it credit—the RDS hockey game would be broadcast on our network outside Quebec.

    We can now broadcast whatever signals we want, station by station. The new broadcast booths, which are based on new digital technology, enable us to separate distribution however we want. We would thus be able to transmit what comes from RDS to those communities that don't have access to it.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Those who would be penalized will therefore be Francophones in Quebec who don't have cable.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: They're penalized in a way, but they nevertheless have access to hockey in some way.

    I just want to remind you that, at the time, the decision that the Canadiens hockey club made was that it was henceforth going to do business exclusively with the specialty networks by exclusively selling all hockey games to the RDS network. That wasn't our decision. We were takers, as you'll remember. So that's a commercial decision that the Canadiens hockey club made at that time because it was a commercial product, and RDS made that proposal because it was convinced it could earn more revenue by going after more subscribers, sponsors and better ratings.

    That was really a commercial decision, and the games still today are a commercial product. I would say they don't have the same symbolic value—you can see that from attendance at hockey games—in English Canada and French Canada. It doesn't resonate in entirely the same way. Over the past few years, we've seen Francophones' interest in hockey decline enormously in the Quebec environment.

    The Chair: One brief final question.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Yes.

    We have someone here who increased your awareness about the termination of the program Des mots et des maux.

    I would like you to explain to us, if you can, why that program, which was mainly broadcast in the National Capital Region, that is to say in French-speaking Ontario, was taken off the air. Radio-Canada also has an obligation to broadcast cultural programs in the regions, in the minority communities, and that program, which had been on the air for three or four years, was taken off. Was that...?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: That was a program decision.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Was it replaced with a program produced in Montreal?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: No. Des mots et des maux is a program that was broadcast in the Ottawa region, first of all, but then on the network in the two-hour slot from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. However, the Ottawa station chose to go another road in a desire to rebuild its television image a little and become a little more contemporary in format and interest. Those are simply program decisions. Programs come and go.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: All right. What was that program replaced with?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: It wasn't necessarily replaced by another program. It's a special type of program. I'd say that, in the 2:00 to 4:00 hour time slot next year, Ça vaut le détour!, which is ultimately a rebroadcast of all the socio-cultural reporting that's done across the country, will probably become a little more prominent. A cultural magazine has been added in the western region, where there was none. ZigZag was just started up. There was one here, in Ottawa, there's one in the Moncton area, and another one will be introduced in the Quebec City area. That will enable us to get a better view of all these products and to enable all Canadians to see everything that's being done in culture. We thought it was perhaps more important to invest in that than in a language quiz, which is definitely interesting, but which, if you will, isn't that contemporary in terms of makeup and game quality. If you want to compare it with television today, it's not modern television. At some point, you have to go on to something else.

»  (1700)  

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Very good. Thank you.

    The Chair: Mr. Proulx.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx (Hull—Aylmer, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Good afternoon, Messrs. Gourd and Tremblay. Welcome to the committee. Thank you for coming.

    Mr. Gourd, I need your help in understanding something. I would like you to explain to me how I should go about this. What I mean is that your network in the Outaouais, particularly your news with your station head, Michel Picard, isn't received by satellite subscribers, except those who have Star Choice.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: That's correct.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Those who have ExpressVu don't get those news programs. People are constantly phoning my office: they miss seeing me on the regional news.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We can understand them.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you. I appreciate your support, Mr. Gourd.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: It's the same in the Quebec City area, but in reverse.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: How do we go about convincing ExpressVu to include you in one of their...?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: I'm going to hand over to my friend Michel Tremblay, who handles relations with all those institutions.

    M. Michel Tremblay (vice-président, Stratégie et développement commercial, CBC/Radio-Canada): From the outset, we have a fairly difficult and unequal situation in the sense that the CRTC's regulations require Star Choice and ExpressVu to broadcast only one of the network's stations. All the others have to be obtained through pressure or commercial negotiations.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Excuse me a moment.

    Does that mean that we only see one French language Radio-Canada station, the Montreal station, on the entire ExpressVu network in Canada and on the entire Star Choice network in Canada?

    Mr. Michel Tremblay: No. I'm saying that's their regulatory obligation. In order to comply with the regulations, they can only broadcast one station. When the decisions were made on recent Star Choice and ExpressVu licence renewals, the CRTC required that at least one station be available in each time zone in each of the language markets. They also established the parity principle.

    There was a time when there were five TVA stations and two Radio-Canada stations on Star Choice. We've always openly opposed that situation. We said that, if not all our stations are distributed, we at least deserve parity with the bigger private broadcasters. The CRTC has consented to parity. Consequently, TVA still has five stations on ExpressVu and on Star Choice, and we also have a minimum of five stations.

    On the other hand, the CRTC required that one station be available per time zone, which will no doubt lead to at least one French language station from the Alberta market being available on ExpressVu and Star Choice. But the problem is that we can't force them. We're using all possible means. There have been public complaints. Indeed there's a fundamental problem if CBOFT is not available in Ottawa. We had thought that, because of competitive pressures, if Star Choice offered it, ExpressVu would offer it, but that's not yet the case. The same problem arises in Quebec City, where CBVT is available only on ExpressVu, not on Star Choice.

    So we're really caught in a fairly difficult situation. By combining public and audience pressure, political pressure and other means that we can use, we'll be able to correct the situation, which we find hard to accept.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Tell me, Mr. Tremblay, if ExpressVu agreed to broadcast CBOFT and then the stations in Quebec City or Montreal, would that mean that Quebec viewers would have the option to choose what stations they would want? In other words, could subscribers in Montreal or Quebec City watch Radio-Canada, CBOFT with Michel Picard and so on?

    Mr. Michel Tremblay: Yes, absolutely. They're distributed nationally from the moment they're available; in other words, you can watch the news on CBUFT in Vancouver, or you can watch programs on time delay that are seen earlier or later, depending on the network's source in those markets.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you.

    The Chair: I'm going to ask my questions because my electors are very interested in this file. We have a Radio-Canada correspondent in my riding to cover events in my riding, which is a rural area. Anyone who has cable in an urban area can see programs in a rural area, but those who live in rural areas, those for whom the programs are made, can't see them because they don't have the choice. They don't have cable television, they have satellite. That's how they've managed.

»  (1705)  

    M. Daniel Gourd: And we don't think that's right.

    The Chair: You aren't the only ones. Of course, at the same time, those people can be very well informed about the fact that there's a traffic jam on Highway 40 in Montreal.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Yes, or on Highway 20 near Quebec City, or in Vancouver or in Moncton.

    The Chair: But not in Ottawa, in their own city.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Exactly.

    The Chair: I believe this committee has already considered it its mandate to speak out on services in both official languages in the City of Ottawa, perhaps for other reasons, but, in the National Capital Region, it nevertheless seems to me that this is not right.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We encourage you not to stop putting on the pressure. I think that what you did in your first report definitely helped make Star Choice decide to head in that direction. I believe it also made it possible to put Winnipeg on the satellite, which was not previously the case. But I don't think you should stop. When the regulatory side doesn't put on the pressure beyond a certain point, and commercial pressure doesn't go beyond a certain level either, what kind of pressure is left?

    The Chair: I think we understand you.

    Now we're going to give the floor to someone who's a year younger today, Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Is it your birthday?

    Mr. Yvon Godin (Acadie—Bathurst, NDP): Mr. Chair, I'm going to introduce a bill in the House of Commons to remove peoples' ages. That way, we'll no longer have that problem.

    The Chair: Happy Birthday, Mr. Godin. Over to you.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: How old are you?

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Quite young; I'm still in my forties.

    I'd like to welcome you. We've previously had the opportunity to speak, in various discussions. You've previously addressed the hockey question. You know how attached we are to it and you remember the pressure we brought to bear last time to have the Saturday night hockey games. So it's not only desirable; I believe Radio-Canada has a mandate to offer them to us.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: As I said, hockey will be available on the network outside Quebec, regardless of the outcome of our talks with RDS this year.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: But Radio-Canada is important for us: it's the people's television.

    There's one question that still intrigues me. There was a time when I called it Radio-Québec, and someone corrected me, telling me that it was Radio-Montréal. We still have that problem with the news on Radio-Canada: it's as though news was only for Montreal.

    Radio-Canada's purpose is to promote Canada. Radio-Canada belongs to Canada as a whole, and, when we watch the news, we feel that the rest of Canada isn't involved. Something extraordinary has to happen in our region, such as four boats and a fish plant burning down, to make it onto the national news. In those cases, there's no problem, but otherwise...

    So I'd like to know what you intend to do. I've previously asked the Chair, and that didn't seem to change anything. If a cat is killed crossing the street in Montreal, it makes the national headlines, but, in the Atlantic Region, you can be watching the news, and they interrupt the broadcast to show us what's going on in Montreal, things that are of no interest to us.

    Does Radio-Canada belong to Canada or to the City of Montreal?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: I don't think your analysis is quite correct. Every time I hear that, I go take a look. I look at the line-ups for the news broadcasts—I'm talking about the Channel One news—and I would say the news comes from virtually everywhere. Yesterday on the Téléjournal, for example, there was a news item on the behaviour of teenagers who gradually become anorexic, and that came from Winnipeg. They decided to do that story in Winnipeg. There were also items from Vancouver and all over. So I'd say it's a bit inaccurate to sum that up as you did.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Just to tell you that we don't have much time: we have about three minutes.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: The problem, I believe, is often RDI because RDI regularly has specials, which is one of its roles. So they often interrupt, for example, programs on the world seen from the Atlantic Region or things like that. We realize it's frustrating.

    We're working on a reorganization of editorial decisions both on RDI and on Channel One. We're restructuring all that to ensure that we don't have the regional viewpoint in Montreal that we don't have elsewhere. So when the Rivière des Prairies overflows, and they talk about it for five minutes, that's all right, but, if they talk about it two hours or two days, it isn't. I understand the frustration. It's just that the rules that apply everywhere also apply in Montreal. It's not because people are from Montreal that things should operate like that.

    The other thing we want to do is to move journalists around more. One of the problems is a lack of awareness and knowledge of the country by a number of journalists in editorial positions who decide on the line-ups. This kind of thing is as true in Ottawa, Vancouver and Moncton as it is in Montreal. We want to move people around more. We think that, when someone has been in a region for two or three months, they may perhaps see things in a different way when it comes to making decisions.

»  (1710)  

    Mr. Yvon Godin: So you admit that that's how it works in reality. It's easier for the people in Montreal who make the decisions regarding the national news. It's easier...

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We admit there's a major problem.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: It's easier for them if it's something that happens near them. I come back again to the fact that Radio-Canada's mandate is to enhance the vitality of the country as a whole. I'm sure people like to hear good news from Acadia on the national news. It's as important as watching news from St. Catherine Street in Montreal. Without wanting to be nasty, I would say that, if we looked at what was on the national news last week, we'd see that Montreal always predominated. I know there are millions of people in Montreal, but there are communities across the country that want to have...

    The Chair: Please leave Mr. Gourd time to answer because our periods have been shorted. We announced that at the start, Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: If you do a careful analysis, it's not as true as you say. Yes, sometimes certain regions are not on the news, but when you do news, you abide by rules that are different from those for promoting the country. News is a type of professional activity. There are journalism rules, responsibilities, a code and conventions which protect those rules. There are people who make decisions who aren't the bosses, who are journalists. So it's a fairly delicate business to enable people to open up to other realities. You can't do it at the management level through directives. That's why we're increasingly considering enabling people to move around. For example, I couldn't tell journalists in decision-making positions what they should cover. It doesn't work that way. They have professional clauses protecting them.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Chair...

    The Chair: No, no. We'll come back for a second round, if you wish.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: It will be quick, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: But there won't be an answer.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: It will be quick. It's my birthday, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: Go ahead, then.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: I'd just like to cite an example. A decision has just been announced in New Brunswick, for the first time in this country. It's a Federal Court decision that the Electoral Boundaries Commission did not make a decision consistent with the one it should have made. This is the first time that has happened and it's going to go down in the history of Canada. But I'm sure it won't be reported on the national news this evening. If it had happened in Montreal, they would have talked about it.

    The Chair: We'll see.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: It's a judgment.

    The Chair: Mr. Simard, it's your turn.

    Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd simply like to ask a question to clarify something. Once again, it concerns La Soirée du hockey.

    You said a moment ago that you had a very bad agreement with RDS that you wanted to renegotiate. That's disturbing. However, you subsequently said that you were committed to broadcasting hockey to Francophones across the country. What's not clear in my mind is whether you're committed to broadcasting to Francophones across the country on a parity basis, either through RDS or your network. You said that it would be one or the other, or a combination of both.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: No. We're going to broadcast La Soirée du hockey on the entire network outside Quebec, on our network, so that it can be received by 98.6 percent of Canadians who have access to our network. RDS is virtually unavailable, except on ExpressVu in certain places.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: So it would be RDS in Quebec.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: In Quebec, at that point, we would be in the market. We would be under commercial law.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: But we on the Standing Committee on Official Languages, our role is to ensure we are at parity with Anglophones. So can you tell us that it wouldn't be more costly to receive that service than for the CBC with the Toronto Maple Leafs?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: It would be less costly for you than for Quebeckers, and it's going to cost the same as for English Canadians across the country. It's an agreement of the Canadiens hockey club; we can't do anything about it. They made that decision and, in the circumstances, we can't do much else.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: RDS is essentially a private network, isn't it?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: It's a specialty cable channel.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: So you pay more.

    Mr. Michel Tremblay: Mr. Simard, you're talking about parity between the networks. It must be acknowledged that audience needs are often fundamentally quite different. Whereas Anglophone audiences are still very interested in hockey, which makes it possible to broadcast two consecutive games on the English network, the demand isn't there on the French side. That consideration may not be unrelated to the hockey club's decision to enter initially into an exclusive agreement with RDS. They know that general interest television may no longer be the vehicle. TVA doesn't broadcast hockey, TQS either. So it's a matter of market trends.

    We don't have any symmetrical programming models in the two markets. It depends on the audience and the response to the type of content.

»  (1715)  

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: For example, we do a lot of variety programs, which the English network doesn't do and doesn't distribute because its audience doesn't like that kind of program.

    M. Raymond Simard: I'm not sure I clearly understand. I wasn't here two years ago when you discussed that.

    Radio-Canada nevertheless has the responsibility to respect the official languages, whereas the other networks don't necessarily have those same responsibilities. So is that what I'm hearing from you or not? Are you telling me that, if the market no longer meets your expectations, for example, if you no longer have the ratings you want, you no longer have those responsibilities?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: No, that's not what I told you. Our work, as a business, is to make sports accessible, to make drama series accessible, to make artists accessible. There's a kind of general equity between environments. If we opt for a certified copy, we'll constantly have to transform the two networks completely and not take into account the specific environments and specific cultures of the markets. If our colleagues at the English network had to do serial dramas, they'd be in quite a bad position to do so, and if we had to show two hockey games on Saturday evenings on our network, there would be vehement public protests about hockey. We've already had them.

    A lot of people wonder why a public enterprise broadcasts and distributes a sport which is increasingly considered a violent sport, a sport that encourages young people to play tough. We saw what happened with Mr. Bertuzzi in Vancouver and other recent cases. In the Francophone culture—and this is also true in Acadia and in certain regions—people are starting to question the moral and sociological example that's being set in that sport. As a public television network, we wonder about that. We don't just have responsibility to achieve parity, we also have general responsibilities with regard to legitimacy, morality and society.

    What I'm telling you is that we feel a responsibility to ensure that all the regions of Quebec and all the regions of Canada have access to hockey in French. The regions of Canada generally don't have access to RDS. So we at RDS have agreed to give them access to hockey games, and we will distribute them because RDS doesn't have the capability to do so. But they have the capability to do it elsewhere, and it's accessible. So that's the scope of the responsibilities we acknowledge with regard to official languages.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Sauvageau.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: This is a very simple question I thought of as I listened to you. Do you have an approximate idea of the percentage of Quebec households that receive RDS?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We're talking about approximately 80 percent, but that figure is rising very quickly. We've observed that, on the English side, the percentage of people who no longer have either cable or [Editor's Note: Inaudible] was approximately eight percent. We're headed in the same direction.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Thank you.

    The Chair: Ms. Thibeault.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault (Saint-Lambert, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Mr. Gourd, the program Hockey Night in Canada will continue to be broadcast free of charge by the CBC, without the need to subscribe to a cable service. Am I right?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: That won't necessarily be the case. It is possible that, in the next negotiations, the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Canadian clubs may decide to follow the Canadiens hockey club, which has merely imitated the American clubs by opting for the specialty channels. The reason is quite simple: they can broadcast all their matches, which a general interest television network such as ours can't do.

    It's not by chance that TQS, TVA and Radio-Canada, which are general interest television networks accessible off the air, are no longer distributing hockey. It was the Canadiens hockey club that chose to take that direction, and that's now what's happening. So it's not out of the question that, in the next negotiations, the hockey clubs, which make decisions on rights, may decide to stop selling to the CBC. There are no guarantees. It's a matter of contracts, agreements.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: Are you aware of the status of the negotiations with regard to Hockey Night in Canada?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: They have a five-year contract that will end in two and a half years. For the moment, the distribution will continue.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: You may recall that, in the quite intense discussions two years ago, my colleagues on the committee asserted that the fact that that program was broadcast free of charge in English Canada and not in Quebec was an unacceptable injustice.

    Mr. Sauvageau, you no doubt remember those discussions.

    Now, from what I understand from your remarks, you're happy for the rest of Canada. Nevertheless, Quebeckers who want to see their hockey on Saturday night will suddenly have to subscribe to a cable service. Is that correct?

»  (1720)  

    M. Michel Tremblay: Allow me to make an important clarification. Since that was at issue in the last discussions, we began negotiations with the Canadiens hockey club. At the time, we had hopes of being able to keep La Soirée du hockey in its present format. However, fundamental changes were made when the Canadiens hockey club decided to negotiate exclusively with RDS. It wasn't us who changed the situation.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: I don't disagree, but I would like to know what the present situation is. Is Radio-Canada negotiating with RDS? Are you telling us that you have a contract, that it's over or that it's being negotiated?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: No. As I said at the outset, we have just informed RDS that we wanted to renegotiate the present contract, as the agreement provides after two years.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: And you have roughly 60 days to do so?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We had 60 days to inform RDS that we want to renegotiate the contract, but we are now starting a 30-day period of negotiations. At the end of those 30 days, we'll see where we stand.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: You say that the popularity of hockey has declined considerably in Quebec. I'm willing to believe that, but is it possible that's due to the fact that less and less hockey is being broadcast in French in Quebec? Isn't that becoming a circle? It's hard for me to believe that our young Quebeckers are no longer interested in hockey.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: In fact, that's not correct. There is more hockey on television than there ever was, because the RDS broadcasts all the Canadiens' matches, 30 Senators games from Ottawa, in addition to all the series. So there are now more hockey games on that network. You can almost say it's the hockey network. Consequently, more hockey games are watched. However, Quebec is undergoing major social changes.

    Ms. Yolande Thibeault: You can watch those games, but you still have to have access to cable.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Or satellite, I agree, but it's these clubs and these athletic disciplines that are deciding to head in that direction. But I can tell you that, on Saturday nights, approximately 100,000 people look at hockey, which represents a five percent viewing share. On RDS that same night, we're talking about 150,000 viewers. In English Canada—and here I'm talking about the two networks combined—we're talking about 1.8 million people and a 25 percent viewing share.

    I'd say that soccer is the fastest growing sport among young people in the French-speaking regions of Quebec and the Outaouais. Fewer and fewer young people are taking up hockey. People's interest in hockey is declining, and fewer and fewer parents want to make that commitment, for cultural reasons. As a parent, if I had a young son today, I would encourage him to play soccer, for example, instead of hockey. Hockey is too violent.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Godin, go ahead.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This will be very brief because I know we're coming to the end. I would like to welcome Radio-Canada in the Atlantic Region for the 400th anniversary. I know they promised to be there, and I'm sure Canadians across the country want to see what's happening back home for the 400th anniversary. I want to finish on that note.

    Thank you.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    Mr. Proulx, over to you. Then I'll have a question, if we have a minute left.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

    Mr. Gourd, you said earlier that you do variety programs, serial dramas and so on. Something constantly bothers me in a number of those programs, and that's the quality of the French used. I understand that it's Francophone, but there have to be ways of promoting good French even on variety shows.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Levels of language vary with the situations in which you find yourself, depending on the type of programs you do. When you do news, for example, if you interview people in the street, their level of language will be different from what you'd see if you interviewed Mr. Godin or yourself, for example. Similarly, when we do drama series, plausibility and authenticity are fundamentally important. If you have a biker, for example, or someone not very educated or who has no chance of learning French and you put the words of a Westmount lawyer in his mouth, people won't identify with it. So you always have to take care to ensure plausibility.

    We try to ask the writers to develop that as quickly as possible and to use a slightly higher level of language, but if it's not plausible, people won't watch the program. So you can make programs in absolutely impeccable European French, but people won't watch them. You can't ask Victor-Lévy Beaulieu to write in European, Parisian language. No, you can't do that.

»  (1725)  

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: No, but we don't need to go any further than that. You and I talk to each other without using Parisian French. I think we understand each other very well, and it's very respectable. I'm going to surprise you but I could start swearing around the table too. And yet I don't need to do it.

    That's not exactly the same thing. There are programs where I understand that the context requires you to represent the reality of the situation, but there are other programs where, frankly, I admit that I don't find the level very high, and I don't think Radio-Canada is doing a good job of playing its role in promoting French in Canada. That's my personal opinion.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: What I can tell you is that we do everything possible to convince writers to pay attention to the language used. We do everything possible, and there are some writers we no longer work with because of that.

    That said, there is nevertheless a limit to your ability to compel a journalist, an artist or a creator to do something. It's not easy. You can't do it by waving a magic wand. But we feel a responsibility with regard to that and we constantly put pressure on writers, on people, to improve the level of language. Some TV hosts are no longer on our network because of that, and so on.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: I'll cite the example of comedians who do nothing but swear in their monologues. I don't think Radio-Canada needs that. But I understand that you want to be commercial, competitive.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We don't want to be commercial at all. That's not our choice. We want to be plausible.

    The Chair: Thank you.

    With your permission, I'd like to ask a very brief final question. You referred to serial dramas. There aren't many serial dramas outside Quebec. There's the FranCoeur series, in which you see Franco-Ontarians. We have a final year of FranCoeur, from what we're told.

    Can we hope some day to see other series of FranCoeur or other similar things?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: Yes. We've also done Samuel et la mer, which is set in Acadia and which we've just broadcast. What we're trying to do is ultimately to develop writers, directors and producers in the regions and to ensure that they can stay in the regions. So we're trying to build an industry or a productive infrastructure, as we've done in documentaries. As you know, with the NFB, in the documentaries field, we've managed to create documentary filmmakers everywhere in 10 years. Today they produce for us and for others indifferently, and it's working very well.

    The Chair: So there won't be a third FranCoeur?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We're completely open to that. You know we saved the second series. We've worked on financing the third. If we receive the financing from the Canadian Fund, we'll be there.

    The Chair: Thank you. You may ask a final question. After that, I'll need your advice for a minute before closing.

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I'm referring back to the subject of commercial or non-commercial television. There's no advertising on Radio-Canada radio. It seems to me I heard about an advertising plan for Radio-Canada television. The advertising would be before the programs or something like that. Was I dreaming?

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: We gradually want to head in that direction, as long as the agencies follow us. The expectations are that, through RDI and Channel One, we'll earn approximately $110 million in commercial revenues a year. As you know, that's not small change when you're a public television network.

    We're trying to create areas where it will be possible to broadcast advertisements in a different way. We'll be starting with the Téléjournal in September. When the news begins, there'll be no commercial breaks until the end. Then we'll try to apply the same principle elsewhere. Then we'll see whether the agencies and the advertisers follow. If they don't, we won't be able to go very far. On the other hand, it's definite for the news; we'll be doing it starting this fall, and we'll proceed in the same manner for the Téléjournal.

    

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: I am delighted.

    The Chair: I need the committee's opinion immediately, so I would ask everyone to stay.

    You saw the draft of the letter I have to send to the Minister of Transport on behalf of the committee. I would like to know whether you are satisfied with the text as it was prepared. If so, I would like to sign it in the event, as improbable as it may be, the committee doesn't sit very often after the break week.

    Do you agree?

    Mr. Benoît Sauvageau: Completely.

    The Chair: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you like me then to write a letter to express our disagreement—that's the least we can say—over the fact that Radio-Canada's programs are not broadcast in Ottawa through the satellite system of the majority of subscribers?

»  (1730)  

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: How's that?

    The Chair: Bell ExpressVu is the system of the majority of subscribers, but they don't have access to it.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Absolutely.

    The Chair: Do you agree?

    However, it's possible of course, that you may not see the text of the letter, but it will be drafted by our staff and signed by me, on your behalf, if you so agree.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Let's also talk about the Quebec side of the Outaouais, Mr. Chair.

    The Chair: Of course we're talking here about the programs of Mr. Picard and company.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: The programs from CBOFT.

    The Chair: All right. Thank you.

    Mr. Daniel Gourd: The situation is the same for the people from Quebec City, who can't see their own programs through Star Choice.

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: So we should do the same thing for Quebec City.

    The Chair: We can express our dissatisfaction with the two problems; there's no harm in that. In fact, I think it will lend our case twice as much weight. I don't know what the situation is in Quebec City, but the majority of people in Ottawa subscribe to Bell ExpressVu and don't have access to it. It's not the exception; it's the rule.

    Mr. Christian Jobin: The opposite is true in Quebec City.

    The Chair: So we'll raise this question as well.

    Mr. Godin.

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Mr. Chair, I would like to address another point.

    The Federal Court decision was rendered yesterday. I don't know whether we can get the committee's unanimous consent, but it should be kept in mind that the representatives of all the political parties on this committee had unanimously recommended to the commission in New Brunswick that we get the part of Allardville and of Bathurst that had been included in Miramichi, and did so for official languages reasons. You yourself, Mr. Chair, who were House Leader at the time, wrote a letter to support the court process and to do the people justice.

    The case was heard last Monday and Tuesday. What's incredible is that the decision was rendered seven days later, and the 43-page decision finds in favour of the municipalities. The committee, whose opinion on the subject was unanimous, could immediately send a letter to the House Leader, Mr. Saada, to give him our comments and recommend that the government pass a bill in the next two days to support the Federal Court decision and do justice to Francophones.

    The Chair: So you recommend that we tell the minister he should not appeal the decision?

    Mr. Yvon Godin: Yes, and, furthermore, that he pass a bill to say that...

    The Chair: What do my colleagues think of that?

    Mr. Marcel Proulx: Mr. Chair, I understand my colleague's interest, except that, in this situation, we have to give the government a chance to review the matter. This brings into question the entire matter of the committee's independence. The judgment overturns the decision of the committee, which, in principle, is neutral.

    The Chair: We have to adjourn right away. We aren't unanimous? Then we'll stop our work right there.

    On that note, we'll thank today's witnesses. Mr. Gourd, Mr. Tremblay, thank you for coming and giving your testimony.

    I hope we'll sit again very soon. Otherwise, thanks to all my colleagues for the quality of all your remarks during the time when I've been Chair.

    The meeting is adjourned.