HUMA Committee Meeting

37th PARLIAMENT, 2nd SESSION

Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

EVIDENCE

CONTENTS

Tuesday, April 1, 2003

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1540

The Chair (Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.))

Mr. Alastair Macphee (Consultant, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples)

The Chair

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth (Executive Director of the Education and Training Secretariat, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations)

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1545

¹

1550

¹

1555

The Chair

Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance)

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Monte Solberg

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Monte Solberg

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

Mr. Monte Solberg

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1600

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

The Chair

Mr. Monte Solberg

The Chair

Mr. Monte Solberg

The Chair

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Monte Solberg

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1605

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Monte Solberg

Mr. Alastair Macphee

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.)

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Alastair Macphee

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1610

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Raymond Simard

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Raymond Simard

The Chair

Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC)

Mr. Alastair Macphee

º

1615

The Chair

Mr. Norman Doyle

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

º

1620

Mr. Norman Doyle

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

Mr. Norman Doyle

The Chair

Mr. Raymond Simard

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

Mr. Raymond Simard

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

The Chair

º

1625

Mr. Monte Solberg

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

Mr. Monte Solberg

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

Mr. Monte Solberg

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

Mr. Monte Solberg

Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth

Mr. Monte Solberg

The Chair

Mr. Monte Solberg

The Chair

Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.)

The Chair

Mr. Alastair Macphee

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1630

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

Mr. Alastair Macphee

Mr. Gurbax Malhi

The Chair

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CANADA

Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities

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NUMBER 021

l

2nd SESSION

l

37th PARLIAMENT

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EVIDENCE

Tuesday, April 1, 2003

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

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[English]

    The Chair (Mrs. Judi Longfield (Whitby—Ajax, Lib.)): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

    I know we're still trying to resolve some problems with the video. Until such time, I'm going to proceed with the witness I have here. I'm going to call on Alastair MacPhee from the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples.

    Mr. MacPhee, please begin your remarks, and then we will head over to Regina.

    Mr. Alastair Macphee (Consultant, Congress of Aboriginal Peoples): Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the committee, and fellow witnesses. My name is Alastair MacPhee, and I'm a consultant to the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. Thank you for the opportunity to appear here today.

    The Congress of Aboriginal Peoples is a national aboriginal organization that represents the interests of aboriginal people living off reserve. CAP was formerly known as the Native Council of Canada and has represented the collective and individual interests of its constituents through member associations in all the provinces and territories for the past 32 years.

    CAP's policy position is that the ability to read, write, and use numerical information is crucial for labour market success and social well-being. We know that low literacy skills reduce employment prospects and limit an individual's ability to participate in society. Poor literacy and numeracy skills damage the chances of our constituents in participating in the economy. We know that employers are concerned that employees lack the basic skills required in industries where technology is increasingly important.

    There are currently no literacy programs being delivered by CAP or any of our affiliates. There have been attempts in the past, but they have not been sustained. Nevertheless, the policy issue of literacy is directly linked to many of the areas we deal with, from health to disabilities and employment programs. We support boosting literacy in the workplace. The question is, how will this be carried out?

    When discussing the policy issue of workplace literacy, it is fundamental to understand that our concerns are greater than the issues of employment and income. CAP advocates for a holistic program to address employment readiness, life skills, education, housing, income security, poverty issues, health and healing, disability supports, racism, and cultural alienation.

    The philosophy underlying our approach is best described as holistic. Within this framework participants could work in a supportive environment with counselling, learning, and ceremony. The problem should be viewed in a larger context than simply employment.

    In many ways, the literacy issue is large and complicated and would be completely overwhelming if it were not for small, discrete pieces of work that aboriginal people are doing to chip away at the problem.

    Mapping the way forward will mean involving aboriginal people in the initiative; appreciating aboriginal values, ethics, and attitudes; and incorporating these in national policies and agendas.

    Thank you.

    The Chair: Next I will call on Danette Starr-Spaeth, who comes from the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. Danette is the executive director of the education and training secretariat.

    Welcome to our committee. We're looking forward to your presentation.

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth (Executive Director of the Education and Training Secretariat, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations): Good afternoon. I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to present on behalf of first nations in Saskatchewan.

    As has been mentioned, I am the executive director for the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations education and training secretariat. The Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations represents 74 first nations in Saskatchewan, and we deal with mainly on-reserve at this time. We have also been looking at programming for off-reserve. We have a large population in Saskatchewan per capita compared to many other provinces, so our workload is very heavy. Besides education, in our portfolio we also deal with youth and youth initiatives and training initiatives.

    There are a number of areas we'd like to address on workplace literacy and the whole issue of looking at employment. I agree with what was said earlier that we shouldn't restrict our discussion or our concerns to employment. We don't want to put it into a vacuum like that.

    In Saskatchewan, 25% of the youth population is aboriginal, so we think that number is very significant. We know the demographics need to be looked at more thoroughly, as to our roles and responsibilities in filling the workforce and replacing our aging baby boomers.

    Aboriginal people currently make up 13% of the population in Saskatchewan, and those numbers are steadily increasing. We know that our growth rate is significantly higher than that of the mainstream population. With that, we know that government, industry, and business need to address the issues and recognize some of the concerns being put forward by first nations communities.

    One of our major concerns is, of course, the funding that's coming through for aboriginal literacy. We did not know that there was funding available for initiatives under aboriginal literacy until I became involved with the Saskatchewan Labour Force Development Board two years ago. I had the opportunity to work with them on the learning at work initiative. It provides opportunities for individuals who are currently in the workplace. That is a main concern to us because it excludes those who are not in the workplace already, and for us that's a large number of people. That is really a target group that we would like to have more attention put to.

    There are individuals in the workplace who also need attention, and we appreciate that. There have to be more initiatives developed for workplace literacy and aboriginal literacy in that area, but we would like to see it expanded beyond that. As I mentioned, there is a major concern that individuals who are not already in the workforce are being excluded from some of the initiatives that are coming through.

    We also want to make the point that first nations must be aware of programming that is available to them. This is very important because we're finding more and more that first nations communities are not being made aware of available programming. We know that in Saskatchewan our people within the communities know what's needed out there. They've identified many of the needs and areas that need more attention. So we'd like to have an opportunity to put that forward.

    We are concerned that there is funding going out for workplace literacy, for aboriginal literacy to be specific, and that funding isn't being made available to the first nations communities themselves. First nations communities have a lot to offer as far as developing programming, delivering programing, etc., is concerned, so we'd like to see funding and programming be more specific to the first nations initiatives we've already identified within our own communities. We would like to see more first nation participation and the availability of funding and programming to those first nations, and more information to them on how to access it.

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    Workplace literacy should also include language programming. We don't call it English as a second language because many of our people in Saskatchewan, especially in the north, have a first nations language as their first language or mother tongue. To keep one from confusing it with English as a second language, we think this is important. There does need to be language programming available for first nations who have difficulty with the English language, including reading, writing, and all that goes with literacy.

    So we'd like to see more work in this area, because we know that if grandparents and parents aren't able to understand at home what's happening with their children, it's going to be difficult for them to get involved in their education. We know that parental and community involvement is absolutely key, that parents and communities must get involved in the education of their children. This is very difficult for them to do if they are illiterate or if they don't have the English language skills needed.

    We have already identified this as an area needing more work. I think the federal government has also identified it. The federal budget made some mention of it in talking about improving aboriginal education outcomes and some mention of community and parental involvement. We know that's key. If parents are taking more interest in their children and students' work in the school, then it's definitely going to encourage success among our young people and students. So we think that family literacy is an area that we would like to see more focus on, making parents and grandparents--who are quite often the caregivers--more comfortable with the English language and able to work with their young students in those areas. So community and parental involvement is key.

    We are somewhat concerned about Knowledge Matters: Skills and Learning for Canadians, the national document put out by HRDC. It was used as a basis to determine our youth employment strategy, our YES programming. We're somewhat concerned because although there were little snippets here and there regarding aboriginal peoples in the skills and learning document, it did not have a focus on aboriginal peoples in the workforce and on getting more aboriginal people into the workforce, or on increased participation and retention. We would have liked to have seen a separate chapter devoted to that. Of course, we appreciate the work that went into the document. I did have an opportunity to talk with Minister Stewart in this regard at a prior learning assessment conference in Charlottetown last year. I just expressed verbally to her some concerns I had with the skills and learning document, and its exclusion of aboriginal people specifically. As I said, there were little parts here and there throughout the document on aboriginal people, except for the chapter on immigration. We would have liked to have seen an actual section or chapter regarding aboriginal people and their involvement and what the federal government is going to do to ensure their participation.

    As a result of the skills and learning document, HRDC made a decision to cut some funding to our youth employment strategies. There have been cuts. It has had a very negative impact, and we're very, very concerned about it. There was funding cut to our cooperative education program, which is one of our youth employment strategies in Saskatchewan. The program was cut in half. It's a major concern to us, because we have found that the program had a very high success rate.

    We've been delivering it in Saskatchewan for five years. We developed the curriculum in collaboration with the Department of Learning, or SaskLearning. We've had other regions ask us for the curriculum. The curriculum is offered to students in grades 7 to 12. It's a school-to-work curriculum, and it is an accredited course so that high school students get credit for it. As I mentioned, the curriculum was developed by ourselves and SaskLearning. Of course, it's very first nations specific. It has a work placement component. I believe it's a six-week work placement, where students are taken from the classroom and are put into the workplace. The in-class component teaches students how to do resumés, how to be more assertive, and how to be more literate in the workplace. A whole curriculum has been developed by ourselves and has been approved by our department of learning.

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    With the funding cuts, of course, this is going to have a very negative impact on us, so we're very concerned about that. Currently we had 15 sites in Saskatchewan, in first nations communities, right at the band level, right in the high schools. The Department of Learning had one site in the city. The Department of Learning is going to be expanding that program this fall to all their community schools, so the province will be able to access it in that way.

    However, with the cuts we have received to funding at the first nations communities, at the band levels, we're looking at not being able to offer that program as we did last year. We are quite concerned about that, and we would like an opportunity for the federal government to begin to listen to our concerns from our first nations communities.

    We've done a number of consultations with parents and with educators, leaders, etc. We've spent the past year doing that, and we've identified the issues and the solutions we would like to see happen. As I say, this is something we're asking the federal government at this point--to actually begin to consult with us and to listen to some of the concerns and solutions we have out there.

    With that, I know my five minutes is probably up, so I will stop there and thank you for the opportunity to address you.

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    The Chair: Thank you. I want to assure you that the government is listening and this is part of our listening and consultation. We have heard from a number of first nations communities throughout the country, and I'm certain that you'll see some of your concerns reflected in our report.

    Around the table, just for your information, I have with me members from the Canadian Alliance, the Bloc Québécois, the Conservatives, and the Liberals. We will start our round of questioning with Mr. Solberg, who represents the Canadian Alliance. Six-minute rounds.

    Mr. Monte Solberg (Medicine Hat, Canadian Alliance): Thank you, and thank you to both our witnesses. We're very interested in what you have to say.

    I'll start with Mr. MacPhee. You mentioned at the outset that CAP was involved in doing some programs or providing literacy training of some sort, but that was discontinued. Can you explain why it was discontinued and what exactly the problem was?

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: Certainly. The program was a video that was put together. It was an attempt to mobilize the leadership behind literacy. We accessed that fund simply by applying to the literacy program. I think it just dropped off the agenda because there was simply no one around to write up the proposal or go after that. That's the best answer I can give you.

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Obviously you're here, so it's a concern. Is it your sense now that CAP would really like to play a role in this and that there's a desire and some leadership there to really push this forward?

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: Absolutely. Literacy affects virtually every program we work on. It's something we have to consider, whether it's a health program.... For example, I work on the type 2 diabetes initiative, and we have to make sure our materials go to audiences that have low literacy skills and they can consume this information.

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Ms. Starr-Spaeth, you mentioned you'd like to see more of this programming designed by and for first nations. I guess what I'm really interested in is whether there are some good examples in the native community of programs that are really working well. Is it possible to replicate them? Do you have any specific examples of programs designed by first nations, or I guess any programs designed by whomever, that seem to be really working well?

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: Yes, we do. Actually we have been working on the education reform component. That as well was a five-year Gathering Strength initiative. It ended just yesterday I guess. The last fiscal year for that funding was 2002-2003.

    Communities were able to develop programs for education reform, and many of those communities did elder involvement programs--programs involving elders and communities and parents as to the education of their children. Of course, a big component of that is literacy, as I mentioned earlier.

    Yes, we do have success stories. We do have best practices. A lot of that work came through our Gathering Strength initiatives.

    Mr. Monte Solberg: I wonder if you could say a little bit more about that.

    [Technical difficulty--Editor]

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    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: I can see you, but I can't hear you. We have video but no audio.

    The Chair: Perhaps while we're waiting for reconnection, I would remind you that on Thursday we are going to hear from employer-employee representatives on a round table. We will hear from Avon Foods from Nova Scotia, the Commission scolaire de Montréal obviously from Quebec, Durabelt Inc. from P.E.I., La Ronge Motor Hotel from Saskatchewan, National Silicates from Ontario, and Palliser Furniture from Manitoba. We should have a good cross-section of--

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Are they going to be here or are they going to be...?

    The Chair: No, they're going to be here on Thursday.

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Not that this doesn't work well.

    The Chair: It worked extremely well on Tuesday.

    Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): It's very poor service. We are not getting through, Madam Chair. We are paying a fee for a service and we're not getting the service. I'm getting a little upset. Take notes.

    The Chair: I'm going to go around, and if you have questions that are to be directed to Mr. MacPhee, we'll take those. Then if we can connect back up with Ms. Starr-Spaeth, we will direct our questions to her.

    Mr. Solberg, did you have any others for Mr. MacPhee?

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Yes. I'll put the same question to Mr. MacPhee that I just put. I would think one of the things that people in the aboriginal community would do would be to look for models that have worked elsewhere. Is there something that really stands out for you as something that's working well and that maybe you could replicate? In your case, maybe it's something that's on reserve but you'd like to use it off reserve, that kind of thing.

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    Mr. Alastair Macphee: One of the programs I liked was called “Youth Helping Youth”. This program was built on the natural social network among aboriginal youth, and we basically built the program on values of kinship, sharing, and respect. This peer counselling approach is founded on a well-documented fact that youth generally seek advice and information from friends and peers rather than adults.

    In the case of aboriginal youth, school may not be the relevant social network. An important point is that assistance from individuals in a non-aboriginal group may not be viable either. Aboriginal youth will turn to peer counsellors of their own cultural group, and the counsellor will play an important role. I think this type of program has considerable application for urban aboriginal youth.

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Do you have empirical evidence of how well it has worked? Would there be a study somewhere that says x number of young people have gone through it and they went from a level 1--whatever--to a level 3, or however you grade these things? Do you have that kind of evidence?

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: No. I believe this is a program that was operating four or five years ago. I just read about it and I thought it had intrinsic value.

    The Chair: Mr. Simard.

    Mr. Raymond Simard (Saint Boniface, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I want to direct my questions to Mr. MacPhee, if he can answer them, but I think they are probably for both witnesses.

    You raised something very interesting, actually, Mr. MacPhee, and it had to do with the leadership position on literacy. I just wanted to know if the aboriginal leadership had actually examined this problem and identified it as a problem, number one, and what kind of priority they're giving it.

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: I can't speak for all aboriginal leadership, but at our last annual general meeting it was not part of the policy discussion. These are usually assemblies that last about two days, so it's not possible to deal with every issue.

    Nevertheless, the subject of literacy is connected to virtually everything we're doing. It's not something that is out of focus; it's certainly something everyone is well aware of. In fact, we've had aboriginal leadership, some of the leaders themselves, who are illiterate, and some of the older generation of leaders, so....

    Mr. Raymond Simard: I realize the leadership has a lot on their plate these days, but it would be important to bring it to the policy table, it seems to me. It is an important discussion to have.

    My second question concerns the fact that we're dealing with on-reserve and off-reserve aboriginal people, and it seems to me there are two different things in terms of on-reserve. For instance, you have more of a captive market there; it might be easier to deal with it. I think you said you dealt a lot with off-reserve communities, and I'm just wondering what kinds of challenges you face in terms of.... I mean, your people are dispersed all over the place. How do you get them interested in the program? Have you thought about that?

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: Within the big urban centres aboriginal people are usually found in specific zones within the city. For example, if you take Vancouver, it's the downtown east side. The friendship centres are a point in the city where you'll have a large flow-through of aboriginal people. So yes, there are--

    Mr. Raymond Simard: There are certain concentrations.

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: Yes. They're not dispersed throughout the cities.

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    Mr. Raymond Simard: Again, dealing with on-reserve or, let's say, in a city, do you see the strategies being different for on-reserve and off-reserve aboriginals? For instance, your focus in a city may be more towards getting to a point where you raise the literacy rate to get a job, while on-reserve it may be more focused towards the community. I'm just wondering if you've thought of that as well.

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: Yes, that's right. In the case of aboriginal youth, they're coming to the city for opportunities. I think the essence of the whole thing is to have a holistic approach, a culturally sensitive approach. That's something we would share with the on-reserve programs, tradition-based, culturally based programs.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: I noticed in some of our documentation here that there are several departments that deal with literacy to some extent. We have Human Resources Development Canada , INAC, the Department of Canadian Heritage, the Aboriginal Relations Office, and the National Literacy Secretariat. It seems to me that if we had one strategy, all these people could put their efforts into that strategy and make it work, as opposed to piecemealing things.

    I also noted that in a lot of cases the off-reserve aboriginal people fall between the cracks of a lot of these programs. I don't know if you have a solution as to how we get all these people together with one focus to make sure we follow a strategy that would work in the long term for aboriginal people.

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: Absolutely. The off-reserve fall through the cracks. We have very few resources to.... There are a limited number of programs we can go after. In the case of my services, I often volunteer my services to go after particular programs, but that's not an effective solution.

    It would be better if all those programs were brought together at one table. We have shown up at aboriginal working groups where there were, say, three departments, and we were able to develop a strategy. The first step would be certainly to go out and speak to our constituencies, hear what they have to say, and put a strategy together.

    There's been a lot of good work done in the past. If you look at the literacy issue, there have just been tons of interesting projects done. Perhaps the time to try to develop a new strategy is now.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Thank you very much.

    Thank you, Madam Chair.

    The Chair: Mr. Doyle.

    Mr. Norman Doyle (St. John's East, PC): I want to ask you a question about the aboriginal people up in the Labrador area. I would imagine you would be familiar with the Davis Inlet area. There have been a considerable number of problems up there--social problems, alcohol problems, what have you, and of course many problems among children as well.

    This winter most of Davis Inlet was moved to a new location on the Labrador mainland, complete with houses, water, sewer, and what have you. In spite of all that, there seem to be many of the same old problems, according to the public attention that's been drawn to it. Many of the same old social problems are remaining and what have you.

    Given the harsh realities that some aboriginal people are living with, specifically in those kinds of climates such as in Labrador, it is very difficult to entice aboriginal young people to stay in school. Do you have any ideas you could share? How does one make progress in that set of circumstances? What needs to be done to, say, lift aboriginal people out of that situation, to convince people to become better educated, and to convince them education is very important? What do you do?

    It's been a real problem in that area, and the government has addressed it as well as they can, but the same thing has happened all over again. Do you have any ideas that could be used to entice people, aboriginal young people, to become better educated, to see education as a means of lifting themselves out of that kind of environment they're in?

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: In my own personal work I did five Youth Service Canada programs, and it turned out it happened to be for all aboriginal groups. There was one for the Inuit, one for on-reserve, one for Métis, and so on.

    The essence of a successful program is the linkage to traditional culture and the elders, and I made sure each program was infused heavily with the link to the past.

    When you take urban aboriginal youth, who are completely alienated and shell-shocked with urban culture.... Some of us have experienced moving from a rural environment into an urban environment. That's a shock. But it's a much larger shock when you're an aboriginal youth and you enter a large city like Vancouver, end up in the downtown east side, and you're completely rudderless.

    So that connection to the culture and the wisdom of the elders is the secret. I'm sure you're well aware of how young the aboriginal population is. That's certainly the secret we've had. When you're dealing with a dysfunctional society, where there are broken families and youth drifting into gangs in the cities, it's even difficult to find elders to participate in the programs.

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    The Chair: Mr. Doyle, just to let you know, Ms. Starr-Spaeth is back on. She can hear us, if you need to direct your questions to her.

    Mr. Norman Doyle: I had one question I could direct to you.

    I think I heard you mention that first nations people are not always aware of the programs that are available, funding that might be available to the aboriginal community for certain kinds of education, initiatives, and what have you.

    What initiatives should government be taking, if any, to ensure aboriginal peoples are fully aware of the programs that might be available for them in certain areas?

    Are there any initiatives, any changes, anything government could be doing to better educate the aboriginal communities as to what programs are available for them? You gave the impression you weren't always aware of programs that might be available.

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: My response to that question would be to have more communication through the organizations that represent aboriginal peoples.

    The FSIN certainly represents first nations peoples in Saskatchewan, and to my knowledge there are organizations like that in each region. And there are organizations representing Métis peoples, off-reserve peoples, and on-reserve first nations peoples. So I think more communication with the organizations that represent those aboriginal peoples definitely would be a first step. I know nationally there are also organizations that represent each of those groups I mentioned.

    In Saskatchewan, we do have a very strong networking structure. I'll give you an example. I'm having a meeting tomorrow with my post-secondary coordinators. I have one from each first nation coming. They're always there.

    We have 74 first nations, as I mentioned, and our meetings are usually representative of anywhere from 60 to 65 of those coordinators. I meet with those individuals about every two to three months. As well, we meet with our directors of education. There is one for each band school, and we meet with them on a regular basis.

    The communication occurs at the first nation government level, but it's not occurring between the federal and provincial governments and those organizations. To me that's a real gap. There's a real problem there.

    Communication is occurring between the federal government, for example, through HRDC, and SLFDB, which is the Saskatchewan Labour Force Development Board, but is that information getting shared with the aboriginal organizations? And of course those are the ones that represent aboriginal peoples.

    To me there's a major gap there. I can't speak for other regions, but just in the experience of working nationally in education, I have seen that gap. But I'm not prepared to be able to speak for those regions, of course.

    The networking is critical. That networking has to be in place, and in Saskatchewan, our parents, our communities, are ready, willing, and able to take on the challenges of meeting with the workforce and getting our young kids, our young people, into the workforce. But we need to communicate that and we need our voices to be heard more in terms of our needs and the solutions. We know we have the solutions. We would like the opportunity to share that with government and we don't think that's happening.

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    Mr. Norman Doyle: I would imagine, though, in terms of where you were, say, ten years ago and where you are today...would you say there's been a big improvement in the information flow and the funding mechanisms, those kinds of things? Is that fair to say?

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: Do you mean compared to what it was ten years ago? There's been just a small improvement to what I see. There has been some movement, but I wouldn't call it a big improvement, a big change. I think more needs to be done, definitely. I think the work being done on aboriginal literacy is probably one of the best examples of this I've seen, lately anyway. But there needs to be more communication, more networking.

    Mr. Norman Doyle: Okay, thank you.

    The Chair: I'm going to give Mr. Simard the opportunity to pose one question to you, and then I'll move to Mr. Solberg.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Thank you, Madam Chair.

    I guess one of the challenges we have, again, is that the first nation communities are spread all over Canada, and even more drastically spread out all over northern Canada. I don't know if you've thought of a way to be able to reach these people.

    When we're talking about literacy programs, I'm not sure if it has to be one on one, on a personal basis, or if it can be done through technology--and, again, we have a lot of challenges reaching a lot of the communities through technology.

    Is there a strategy in place already so we can access these people to be able to provide them with these literacy programs?

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: I'll speak for Saskatchewan specifically, and certainly we are spread out geographically across this province. But I'll go back to it again--our networking system is absolutely impeccable. We're able to get the information that comes to us out to our communities almost immediately.

    I would recommend more work in education with the national groups as well. One is the Chiefs' Committee on Education. It's called CCOE. A representative from each region attends those meetings, and there's a technician as well. There's a political representative and a technical representative from each region. The information goes from those meetings back into the regions. To my knowledge anyway, in Saskatchewan, it's been very successful.

    Our communities have identified those two people who sit at the national level of the Chiefs' Committee on Education and the National Indian Education Council. The NIEC is the technical body. The CCOE is the political body. It's my understanding that each area has a system like that, so there would be a Chiefs' Committee on Economic Development as well, which of course brings in the labour force and labour market. That would be an excellent venue for government to be able to spread the word and get it back into the communities.

    Certainly technology is an issue. I'm not saying it isn't. But for us in Saskatchewan, we're still able to communicate with all the necessary people and with all our communities.

    Mr. Raymond Simard: Would this be a literacy program, in terms of being able to deliver the courses, for instance? Is that an issue?

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: I don't think there is going to be as big an issue with that as there has been in the past. We're moving more towards the modern technology in some of our remote communities as well with the SchoolNet program. Of course, that's specific to the schools.

    Industry Canada has also done the Community Access Program, the CAP program--not to confuse that with the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. It's the same acronym. The CAP program has been very successful, and that sets up an Internet site at each community, a public access site. To my knowledge, our communities are taking advantage of it as much as they can. Those sites are up and running and they're working well.

    Definitely, even in the area of education, we've been delivering some satellite courses and some televised courses as well, and through the Internet, and, to my knowledge, those have been successful.

    The Chair: Mr. Solberg.

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    Mr. Monte Solberg: Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

    I want to pick up where I left off, I guess, before we were disconnected. If you'll travel back to where we were a long time ago when we first got started here, what we were talking about at that point was the program you are running now. You seemed to indicate that it was pretty successful and you felt like it was working fairly well.

    But what I'm trying to identify is the success of these programs. Do you keep some statistics that would say, for instance, out of x number of students you ran through your literacy program, a certain number improved from whatever reading level to another reading level or one numeracy level to another numeracy level? Do you keep this kinds of empirical data? If not, how do you judge the success of these programs?

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: We have never had a literacy program through the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations. The program I was referring to was our cooperative education program. Is that the one you mean?

    Mr. Monte Solberg: I'm sorry, I guess it was. I think it was you who said that you actually believed, quite strongly...the learning at work program, is that what it was?

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: Yes.

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Right. Through that students were picking up reading skills. Is that basically the idea?

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: The learning at work program is the Saskatchewan Labour Force Development Program. It's SLFDP, a provincial government program. I was asked to sit on the committee to adjudicate the proposals that came in. This was my first knowledge of an aboriginal literacy program in place in Canada. It's not our program. I don't know what kind of numbers SLFDP has kept regarding the learning at work program.

    The reference I made to that was to communicate to you the concern we have. Had I not been asked to sit on that committee, we at the Education and Training Secretariat still would not be aware of the national literacy programs that are out there.

    I also made reference to the cooperative education program, and, yes, it has been very successful. It's our program. I made reference to the skills and learning affecting it, having an impact. And yes, we do have numbers and statistics to show the success of this program.

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Okay, that's great. I think it's really important to keep track of these things. If it's working well, obviously, we'd like to replicate it, or suggest to other groups that they should replicate it.

    You probably don't have all those numbers in front of you, I'm sure, but I wonder if it would be possible to have access to them. Perhaps they could form part of the data we take a look at in determining what our recommendations ultimately are. Is it possible to get that information?

    Ms. Danette Starr-Spaeth: I just lost you about 30 seconds ago. I can't hear you again. Modern technology!

    Mr. Monte Solberg: Hello, can you hear me now?

    The Chair: No, the connection is lost.

    I don't know, Mr. Solberg. I'm beginning to wonder about you.

    Mr. Monte Solberg: I know. It's the metal plate in my head!

    The Chair: Oh, okay.

    We'll give them 30 seconds.

    Mr. Malhi, if you have questions for Mr. MacPhee, we can start with those.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi (Bramalea—Gore—Malton—Springdale, Lib.): Thank you, Madam Chair.

    Has your organization adopted a particular definition of literacy? Is it possible to have one definition of literacy for all the organizations?

    The Chair: He's wondering if you have one definition of literacy.

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: Is there one definition of literacy? I would presume so. There could be one definition of literacy and numeracy we could all agree to. I don't think it's an obstacle, particularly.

º  (1630)  

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Did you have a chance to work with the other organizations you were working with before on this, having just one definition?

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: I think the definition of literacy isn't a particularly big difficulty for the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. I wouldn't say it is. I don't know which definition you're actually suggesting.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Different witnesses explained some different ways to define it. That's why I'm asking you.

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: I see. Well, that's an interesting question. I'm not entirely sure what that would be in the aboriginal context, but I've never addressed that issue, certainly.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi: You are lobbying the federal government for literacy. What type of help or funding is your organization getting from the provincial or territorial governments?

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: The Congress of Aboriginal Peoples is a national aboriginal organization, so we get funding only from the federal government. The core funding comes from Heritage Canada, and then we have various programs that we submit proposals to and administer.

    But in each of the provinces and territories we have an affiliate organization that deals with the provinces. I surveyed them all before coming here, and none of them are running a literacy program.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Sometimes the business community has problems hiring people, giving training to people, due to their low literacy level. What would you suggest to the business community about that, and what type of cooperation are you getting from the business community?

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: Getting cooperation from whom?

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi: From the business community.

    Mr. Alastair Macphee: I've looked at the various models that are out there, literacy programs that various businesses have run, and the focus is too narrow, basically, to fit the aboriginal agenda. It's simply learning enough or improving your skills so that you can operate within the plant or the new technology that a company may have.

    So in dealing with the literacy issue with aboriginal people, the environment has to be much larger and take in traditional cultural values and the whole context the person is dealing with. That's the problem with the workplace literacy programs I've seen.

    Mr. Gurbax Malhi: Thank you.

    The Chair: Are there any further questions to Mr. MacPhee? It looks like we've lost Ms. Starr-Spaeth for the foreseeable future.

    Seeing no further questions, I would call this meeting adjourned. Thank you.