SRID Committee Meeting

SUB-COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE

SOUS-COMITÉ DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE ET DU DÉVELOPPEMENT INTERNATIONAL DU COMITÉ PERMANENT DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES ET DU COMMERCE INTERNATIONAL

EVIDENCE

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

Wednesday, June 6, 2001

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[English]

The Chair (Ms. Beth Phinney (Hamilton Mountain, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order. This is meeting seven of the Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Development of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

I just want to comment on the fact that because we're near the end of what's going on in the House of Commons this year for this session, things are a little up in the air over at the House, so we may all of a sudden have to go for votes, or whatever is going on. We don't know. So I'm sorry if it's a little up in the air.

I'd also like to mention that I was in Colombia last week, for the week. It's not a place where people, in my opinion, would want to go right now, unless they had a specific reason to go there. It is quite scary, quite dangerous. To give you just an indication of how dangerous it is, this is a poster that the Red Cross put out—you'll see the white marks on each of those human beings. It says at the top—somebody might speak Spanish—don't use our people as targets, and obey the rules of war.

So if anybody has any doubts about what's going on in Colombia, when the Red Cross states it's already at war.... This has been put up in public places, airports, etc., telling the guerrillas, the paramilitary, and everybody who's shooting and chopping people up with axes, to realize there are a lot of people who are not responsible for this, and to please protect the public. I saw it at an airport and was allowed to take a couple home.

I have an article here, and unfortunately it's just in English. It's from the Ottawa Citizen and it's about the human rights activist scheduled to speak in Canada, who is missing in Colombia. We met with him on Thursday and had dinner with him. It bothers me a lot, because although he's been in human rights for a long time, I sort of feel because he met with us.... At the dinner, one of the other indigenous people said, “You know, maybe you shouldn't go back home, because you're on the list and you have to be careful”, and he said, “Yes, I know”. So he went back home after the dinner and they were waiting for him with guns, in the village. They took him away, and now they don't know what's happened to him.

• 1545

The situation down there is real. I had the chance to go, so I felt I should go, as chair, because it's very difficult to sit here and pass judgment on what's going on down there. I know the committee has been thinking about a trip, and I think there are several ministers who would like us to go.

The ambassador is going to watch the situation very closely with us. If it's any worse than it is now, I suggest we not go, because we couldn't go anywhere without armed guards, and it would be very uncomfortable. If it's no worse than it is now, I strongly suggest the committee go in the fall, so we can see what's going on, but it is quite scary. We'll leave it right now with the ambassador, to advise us in the fall what's going on down there.

I just thought I would add that bit, because I was away last week and apparently I missed some good testimonies, but I felt I should go.

I think we'll start right away. We have with us today the Canadian Labour Congress. Sheila Katz is the national representative for the Americas. Ken Luckhardt is the national representative, international department, for the Canadian Auto Workers. And Normand Comte, development and peace, from the Canadian Council for International Cooperation.

We'll start in the order I mentioned you. In the beginning, when you are speaking, sort of explain a little about why you are concerned about Colombia, what your concern is, or a little about your background.

We'll start with Sheila.

Ms. Sheila Katz (National Representative for the Americas, Canadian Labour Congress): Thank you very much.

Just to respond to your comments, I'm really pleased to hear that you spent a week in Colombia. I was there the week before, and I met Kimy here in Canada, not in Colombia. I would strongly urge and highly recommend that you take your colleagues from the committee there. It would be a wonderful opportunity. I would really look forward to hearing your report and getting feedback from that trip.

I work in the international department of the Canadian Labour Congress. I'm responsible for relations and development projects with unions in the Americas. I've been doing this kind of work—not with the Labour Congress—for 30 years. I was a CUSO volunteer in Colombia precisely 30 years ago, at a small industrial university, so I've been relating to Colombia for a very long time.

I am very pleased to be able to be speaking at the subcommittee today. The Canadian Labour Congress presented a brief to a round table that the SCFAIT held on Colombia in December 1999, and we are very pleased to see that there is continuing interest on the part of the committee in the very serious and complex issues facing our brothers and sisters in Colombia.

I have provided the committee with a copy of the brief that was presented to the round table, because it provides important background for my comments today. The clerk of the committee has a copy of that, as well as a statement from the Canadian Labour Congress on Plan Colombia, and a report from the governing body of the International Labour Organization. This is the report of the special representative of the director general for cooperation with Colombia. I think all of this information pertains to what I will be talking to you about, which is the situation of trade unionists and workers in Colombia, in the current crisis.

I'd like to use my time wisely. My speaking notes have some visual charts with some statistics, and it might make it easier if you had the charts in your hands. I don't have copies in French—only in English. I don't know if you would mind having a copy in front of you in English only. Could you give me some advice on that, members of the committee? You don't have this document I'm talking about; I have it here. These are my speaking notes, with some charts, graphics, and statistics. Would you like a copy in English only?

[Translation]

Mr. Antoine Dubé (Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, BQ): Generally speaking, I do not go along with this type of thing, but since this is a humanitarian cause, I will make an exception. But I would imagine that the Canadian Labour Congress is capable of—

Ms. Sheila Katz: Yes, but it was simply a matter of a lack of time.

Mr. Antoine Dubé: Very well.

Ms. Sheila Katz: Thank you.

Mr. Antoine Dubé: As long as it's for Columbia, I'll go along.

• 1550

[English]

Ms. Sheila Katz: Let's start with some facts. Normal industrial relations in Colombia means organizing unions; negotiating with management; striking, if necessary; exercising labour rights; and engaging in labour relations that we in Canada largely take for granted. Industrial relations is not an illegal activity in Colombia, as it was under the military dictatorships of Chile's Pinochet, for example, and other Latin American military dictatorships in the 1960s and 1970s. It is not illegal—I stress that fact—but it is definitely dangerous.

It is a dangerous activity to be a trade unionist in Colombia. It is a high-risk occupation, according to the worldwide umbrella organization, the ICFTU. In fact, Colombia is the most dangerous country in the world for a trade unionist. Of all of the assassinations, murders, and attacks against trade unionists in the world, 90% take place in Colombia. This is not a very proud record for a country to have.

Let me give you a rundown of events that happened in only two weeks of this year, the first two weeks of May, beginning with May Day. Following a mobilization, a parade, a march for May Day to commemorate International Workers' Day, a number of trade union leaders were detained and beaten by police. These included the president of the University of del Valle Workers Union, the president of the Union of Bugalgrande Workers, and the director of the human rights department of the Unitary Workers Central, which is the largest and strongest of the central labour bodies in Colombia.

On May 2, Dario de Jesus Silva, a teacher for 22 years, was assassinated in his home province of Antioquia. On May 9, Juan Carlos Castro Zapata, another teacher for five years, was assassinated, also in the province of Antioquia. On May 10, Eugenio Sanchez Diaz, president of the National Union of Water, Drainage and Public Works Workers, was shot by paramilitaries in the province of Cesar. On May 14, Julio Alberto Otero, a member of the Professional Association of University Lecturers and vice-chancellor of the Magdelena Technology University, was assassinated when he was out for a walk with his wife. On May 21, Carlos Eliecer Prado, a member of the Cali Municipal Workers' Union, was hit by 11 bullets when he arrived at work. This was in a two-week period in the month of May—a very bloody month in Colombia.

These people were made military targets merely because of their acts of joining unions, forming unions, leading unions, or merely being union members. This, in Colombia, makes you a military target. In other words, they were exercising their internationally recognized rights of freedom of association and collective bargaining.

I won't give you much of a lecture on international human rights, because I'm sure the committee is very well-informed in these matters.

In Colombia, between 1991 and 2000, 1,557 trade unionists—that includes rank and file members and elected officers—were murdered. You can see on page 3 of my notes, which were just handed out in English, a statistical analysis of the numbers of assassinations, by year and category of worker. If you take a look at the chart on page 4, you can see—

The Chair: Sheila, we will have to get the three of you in, and then have questions and answers by quarter after. We have a copy of this, so perhaps you could cut it down a little and do just two or three more minutes, and not read every word of the whole thing.

Ms. Sheila Katz: Okay. If you look at the chart on page 4, you can see the type of violation that trade unionists, and I dare say many popular sectors of Colombia, are victim to, including homicide, death threats, forced displacement, etc. We in the international labour movement certainly have the impression that there is an attempt to annihilate the labour movement in Colombia.

Who is carrying out these activities? If you look on page 4, you will see a chart that gives you the statistical analysis of the perpetrators of the violence against trade unionists. You can see that over half of the attacks are committed by paramilitary and self-defence groups, 14% are carried out by one of the two guerrilla factions, 6% are carried out by the armed forces, and other perpetrators are unknown.

• 1555

In some cases, under pressure from the international community, the government has offered to provide protection to trade unionists, but in many cases this so-called protection amounts to being supplied with a cellphone. In fact, the protection is highly inadequate, and the violations against workers and trade unionists continue to rise.

I want to tell you about one particular case, the case of a well-known public official and a very high-level trade union leader by the name of Wilson Borja Diaz. He was the president of the National Federation of State Service Workers. He was also a member of the commission working on the peace process between the government and the National Liberation Army. Although the paramilitaries took responsibility for the attack against Wilson Borja, the police captain, Carlos Freddy Gomez, was arrested in Bogota on February 7 and accused of participating in the murder, along with three other police and ten army officers. On April 7 the prosecutor investigating the case determined that military personnel from the Third Army Brigade in Cali were also involved.

I bring this case to your attention because of the repeated declarations by members of the Colombian government and Colombian diplomats that there is no relationship between the armed forces and the paramilitaries. There are numerous cases that prove just the opposite. The entire list of the executive council of the Unitary Workers Central have been found on hit lists of the so-called self-defence committees, or the paramilitaries. I think the committee has heard from other presenters about the level of impunity and the problems this implies for civil society organizations and for movements in social sectors, like trade unionists, because it is the paramilitary forces that are guilty of most of the widespread and systematic atrocities, according to such organizations as Amnesty International in their recent report.

Let's look at the labour movement's response in general. They are fundamentally committed to achieving a negotiated political solution to the long-standing armed conflict in the country. They are continuing to advocate, however, that genuine peace is more than just the absence of war and that social justice issues must be part of the negotiations. It is unacceptable for the government to sit down at the table with the armed insurgent groups while at the same time it engages in an economic and social war on workers, and the population at large, by adopting policies that severely undermine social and economic rights. Peace without social justice, without the participation of the labour movement and other sectors of civil society, will not resolve the root causes of the conflict in Colombia.

The Government of Colombia has repeatedly claimed that acts of violence against trade unionists are just another expression of the armed conflict and the various forms of criminality in the country. We say it is more than that. This is the same view consistently portrayed by the Colombian embassy in Ottawa, and it is a view that was roundly rejected by the members of the invisible struggles tour who visited the embassy in March. This invisible struggles tour did include a CLC partner from the Unitary Workers Central, the CUT.

The Canadian Labour Congress is deeply disturbed by these statements, which would seem to indicate bad faith on the part of the government to resolve this situation on the one hand, while on the other, it sends a tacit message that violence against unions, union leaders, and other unarmed popular sectors is acceptable. It is not acceptable. The violence must stop, the bloodshed must stop, the murders must stop.

• 1600

In the brief you have a series of recommendations the Canadian Labour Congress has made repeatedly to the Canadian government. The recommendations that were set 18 months ago are still completely valid today, because there has just been too little progress on the part of the Colombian government and on the part of the Canadian government in dealing with the violence, with the struggle. We know it's a complex issue, we know it's a complex problem, but there needs to be more progress.

The Chair: Thank you very much. I think we're going to have to stop. Your recommendations are here again, right?

Ms. Sheila Katz: Yes.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

[Translation]

Mr. Comte, you have 10 minutes.

Mr. Normand Comte (Development and Peace, Canadian Council for International Co-operation): First of all, I would like to thank you for allowing me to be here today before the Sub- Committee on Human Rights and International Development.

It is as a member of the Canadian Council for International Co-operation and the Task Force on the Americas that Development and Peace is here today. Personally, I work for Development and Peace whose offices are situated in the National Capital Region. The office is in Hull.

Development and Peace is an organization which has been in existence for over 30 years. It was one of the major international development agencies. We work a great deal to promote community development, defend human rights, promote popular education as well as on the issue of emergency measures.

For over 30 years now, Development and Peace has also maintained rather close ties with institutions and social organizations in Columbia. One of the organizations we work with and which we support is the CINEP, the Centro de Investigacion y Educacion Popular, which deals mostly with issues of education and human rights. It is a reference site where we can obtain information on the situation in Columbia.

The current Development and Peace program in Columbia is basically focussed on supporting the process of democratization and re-enforcing social organizations so that they can be masters of their own development. Development and Peace maintains close ties with native Columbian organizations. Amongst them, there is the ONIC, the National Organization of Columbia; the OIA, which is the Antioquia Native Organization; and the Calbidos Embera of the Green River and the Haut Sin River.

Last November, a representative of Development and Peace, Mr. Jacques Bertrand, visited the Embera Katio in the regional offices in Tierralta. The objective was to strengthen the programs offered by Development and Peace with the Native organizations in Columbia. We wanted to go into more depth in our support for these organizations.

I have given to the participants a short text of my presentation, but you will also find a summary of our project with the Embera Katio. Unfortunately, it is only in French. We find ourselves in the opposite situation, since we did not have enough time to get the document translated. But these documents could be obtained in English.

[English]

The Chair: Well, I don't know.

[Translation]

Mr. Normand Comte: If people are interested in receiving them, they are available at our Montreal office.

The Chair: Thank you very much.

Mr. Normand Comte: I would like to deal a little bit more with the Embera Katio project, since this is a project which we have been supporting continuously since 1988. As you know, the Embera Katio live in the humid jungles of Western Columbia. It is a zone recognized as being one of the best locations, if not the best location in the Americas, given its strategic geographic location. This area contains vast environmental riches, and these territories over the past few years have been subjected to intense pressures from international companies, but also pressures on the part of settlers who would like to take possession of the riches of these lands.

There has been a great deal of ecological damage. Among others, in the 1950s, over 70,000 hectares of trees were felled in order to be able to build a dam. At that point they were planning to put up a hydro-electric dam.

In the 1980s, the project was moved forward. The first studies regarding the dam were carried out. The dam was completed in the 90s, and we then noticed a marked deterioration of the living conditions of the Embera Katio who lived in the community.

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Previously, they could travel by canoe on the river in order to meet their basic needs. Since the construction of the dam, that is impossible. The location where they grew foodstuffs for their community for dozens if not hundreds of years is on the point of being flooded. Here we are referring to basic crops essential to the Columbian people, namely yucca and corn.

The fishery has also decreased. The stagnant waters that are now found in the section of the river where they lived caused the arrival of several species of mosquitoes, which led to the beginnings of diseases such as malaria and many health problems for their children.

The Embera Katio mobilized to face down the situation. First of all, they demanded that the state return 7,000 hectares of land to them. They also halted the illegal cutting of wood on their territory. They went so far as to occupy the mayor's office in Tierralta and to move a motion in the courts against a major corporation and the Tierralta mayor's office in order to claim damages which have been caused to their territory and which had a negative effect on their ability to meet the basic needs of their community.

From that point, Development and Peace intensified its support for 2000, 2001 and 2002 in support of this court action and wants to ensure that what the Constitutional Court decided in terms of land claims for the Embera Katio and financial compensation will be respected. Many promises which were made have yet to be kept.

We also worked very hard in order to ensure that the people could come together as a people. Outside agents tried to create division amongst the Embera Katio in order to prevent them from mobilizing.

Obviously, we also want to assist the Embera Katio in evaluating the impact of the project on the environment. We were very sensitive to this, since at the beginning of the construction project, a Canadian company did participate to some extent in the evaluation and in the implementation of this project before understanding what impact it would have, and so on. This company never mentioned the horrible negative impacts that this would have upon the environment.

Since then, several Embera Katio have been victims of kidnapping and assassination. A number of them have simply disappeared. There are some important community leaders who were assassinated. For example the spiritual leader Alonsito Jarupia. There's also Lucindo Domica and, more recently, we hear that Kimy Domico Pernia has been listed as having disappeared since Saturday.

I would like to draw to your attention the fact that we gave to Mr. Steve Sampson, Ms. Beth Phinney's assistant, a nine-minute video, that we will not have the opportunity to see today, but which shows Kimy speaking to the situation in his community and the direct involvement of the Columbian government in this situation. If you want to see that video at some other time, Steve will make the arrangements.

The Chair: Thank you.

Mr. Norman Comte: I'm not done.

The Chair: No, no. I said thank you for the video.

Mr. Normand Comte: Very well, then.

Last April, Development and Peace met personally with Kimy Domico Pernia in Quebec, when he participated in the Human Rights Forum at the Peoples' Summit of the Americas. Development and Peace was there and was one of the organizations supporting the Peoples' Summit of the Americas. As far as he was concerned, Kimy's participation was very important in order to inform the Canadian people of the situation of the Embera Katio. It was another important time to foster closer ties of solidarity with these people who have been struggling for so long in order to have their territorial and ancestral rights respected.

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As everyone knows and as has already been mentioned, on Saturday, June 2, 2001, Kimy Domico Pernia, an important leader of the Embera Katio community, was kidnapped by three armed men. We know that before being kidnapped, Kimy Domico Pernia attended a meeting in the City of Medellin with the Canadian Ambassador, Aboriginal representatives of the Assembly of First Nations of Canada as well as representatives from the Canadian institution, Rights and Democracy.

Perhaps we could say that this is one of the first things we are hoping for here today. On Monday the ICCHRLA, the interfaith committee, launched a petition. At this time, more than 50 members of Parliament have signed this petition which will be sent to President Pastrana. This is a very important first initiative for us, because when members of Parliament sign such petitions, they have a lot of influence and can exercise pressure to fight injustice, particularly in the area of human rights, existing in other countries. We see this as a very positive step, and we hope that this action will multiply because there are not just 50 members of Parliament here in Ottawa; there are a lot more. So we hope that this initiative will snowball.

Development and Peace is also very interested in finding out what sort of resolution the Canadian Parliament will be issuing in response to the deterioration of human rights in Columbia, particularly with regard to the situation in the Embera communities in recent days.

Development and Peace strongly hope that this resolution will repeat the demand previously presented to the Columbian government calling for the final dismantling of paramilitary groups as well as the capture and trial of their members, both the leaders and also those who finance their activities.

I had a lot more material to bring this afternoon, but unfortunately many of the documents were in Spanish. I was told that this was not the right place. I would like to thank you for your attention.

[English]

The Chair: Thank you very much.

I would just like to comment that Bill Graham, as chair of foreign affairs, and I, as chair of this committee, have sent a letter to the President. We co-signed the letter and we sent it. The Inter-Church Committee were pushing us to sign, and we have already sent our own letter. I just wanted you to know that.

Mr. Svend Robinson (Burnaby—Douglas, NDP): On that point very briefly, I wonder—and perhaps this was discussed earlier on, and I apologize that I wasn't able to be here at the beginning of the meeting—whether it might be appropriate for this committee, the Subcommittee on Human Rights, to agree to a motion by consensus expressing our deep concern about the plight of Kimy and urging that all possible action be taken.

The Chair: Can I suggest you do that at the end of the meeting today?

Mr. Svend Robinson: Sure.

The Chair: Can you stay until the end of the meeting today?

Mr. Svend Robinson: Yes.

The Chair: Because we've got another witness and we would like to do some questions. So we will do that.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Good.

[Translation]

Mr. Antoine Dubé: I wanted to let you know that I and several other Bloc members have signed the letter. I think that Svend Robinson has also signed it.

[English]

The Chair: Good.

[Translation]

Mr. Svend Robinson: All the NDP members have signed it.

[English]

Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Canadian Alliance): That's probably unanimous consent. In all likelihood it's going to pass. That way we agree.

Thank you very much for your presentation and for coming. I don't purport to be an expert on Colombia—

The Chair: Can we keep our questions to five minutes? We're only going to get three questions in.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Yes. I'm going to keep mine short. We have to go at five to the hour, anyway, for that bill.

The Chair: Yes. Keep talking.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: I do understand what you're saying. I picked up the whole fact that there are problems in Colombia, human rights abuses, and you have documented them very well. So there is no question about that.

I'm interested in knowing where you have been giving your recommendations. Perhaps you can advise me on this, if you can answer very shortly, so I can go to my next question, which is a recommendation. Have you or any of your groups that have been going down to Colombia faced any kind of obstacles in getting cooperation or information from the Government of Colombia?

Ms. Sheila Katz: Getting information from the government?

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Has the government been assisting? Have you found roadblocks where, with information you want or something you want, the Government of Colombia has tried to stop you, or have you had free access?

Ms. Sheila Katz: We generally relate to the trade union movement when we go to Colombia. We have not made any specific requests that—

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: But the Government of Colombia has never interfered, has not stopped you getting a visa or entering the country?

Ms. Sheila Katz: We don't need a visa to go to Colombia.

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Mr. Deepak Obhrai: But they have never done anything on that front. They've allowed you free access into the country. They have acted like a democratic government. That's what I'm coming down to.

Ms. Sheila Katz: Well, we're not saying it's not a democratic country.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: Great. So now I go to the second question. We have just come to this point where we say we do understand that the Government of Colombia is a democratic country, elected by the will of the people of Colombia. So there is a democratic government there. Understandably, from the reports we've both been getting they do need a lot of assistance in proper governance. Otherwise they wouldn't have paramilitaries and all the other organizations working over there.

In your recommendation you say the committee and the Government of Canada should be telling them about labour standards—imposing our labour standards through the ILO. This is fine. I'm sure the Government of Colombia has done that—maybe not.

The question I have for you is here:

Canada's Peace building Fund programmes must be made more readily accessible to civil society groups, including the labour movement, to support the strengthening of civil society, awareness raising and education for peace, and good governance.

You're talking here about working with the NGOs—helping the NGOs. What I find a little strange, if you will pardon me, is that at no time are you saying Canada should come and assist those who have been elected in that country, such as the Parliament, the judiciary, and all those kinds of institutions you need for good governance. It seems to me from reading all these things there is a need to assist Colombia in good governance. And I don't see any of those things written at all in your recommendation. Perhaps you want to comment on that.

Mr. Ken Luckhardt (National Representative, International Department, Canadian Auto Workers): I'll respond in part. My name is Ken Luckhardt. I'm with the international department of the Canadian Auto Workers. I'm here at the invitation of Sheila because our union has taken a very active interest in Colombia. I was there as part of a trade union delegation in 1997. Our union has a number of projects with Colombian trade union partners and we work with the CLC on the broader issues of the violence.

I want to go back to your first point, that is, that Colombia is a democracy. We are constantly reminded by the Colombian ambassador to Canada about the Colombian democracy being one of the oldest in Latin America. Certainly the forms and the structures, no matter how old they are, are there, but the substance, in my estimation, is often lacking.

One of the fundamental definitions of any democratic society is a free and independent trade union movement. If in fact individuals are not allowed freely to join unions, to participate in unions, to actively involve themselves in collective bargaining, or to go on strike, and if to do any of those things often leads to either being killed, displaced, threatened, or forced into exile for temporary or long periods of time, then certainly one of the fundamental pillars of a democratic society is not there. And that is our concern in the labour movement.

I have lost friends I met four years ago—and during the course of the last four years—as a result of assassinations and displacements. All they are doing is carrying out normal trade union activity. So I think we have to embellish the concept of democracy a little more deeply than simply saying there's an elected party in power.

There's also the political history. When certain guerrilla movements gave up their arms and tried to participate in a democratic fashion through the Patriotic Union—a new political party in the early 1990s—over 2,000 of those people were assassinated.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: My question—

Mr. Ken Luckhardt: I'm coming to your question.

The Chair: Your time is up. Could you just wrap up?

Mr. Ken Luckhardt: I'm saying the nature of the Colombian democracy is itself problematic, because large segments of civil society are not in fact allowed to participate.

The Chair: Okay, Deepak, time is up.

[Translation]

Mr. Dubé.

Mr. Antoine Dubé: You make several recommendations and you say that they have already been sent to the government. This was 18 months ago, or a year and a half. I assume that you are submitting them to us today because you feel that the government has not responded adequately. Is that correct?

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[English]

Ms. Sheila Katz: We feel that things have happened in the last 18 months. The new element, which didn't exist 18 months ago, is the existence of Plan Colombia. Since information about Plan Colombia became public, we've been advocating that it is absolutely urgent for the Canadian government to speak out publicly and forcefully against the military aspect—against all aspects—of Plan Colombia, because it's a plan for war and not a plan for peace. We would like the Canadian government to be more public, more open, and more direct in its disassociation from all aspects of Plan Colombia.

So, in fact, we feel there has been very little progress on the part of the government in meeting most of the recommendations.

The Chair: Ken, do you want to speak?

Mr. Ken Luckhardt: One new recommendation that I think is important for you to consider is to support the call by the Colombian labour movement for a commission of inquiry to be carried out by the ILO. There have been thousands of speeches about how horrible the situation is in Colombia, and you hear more every time you hear people speak. But a commission of inquiry is being called for by the central labour body in Colombia, and I think this is something the committee should look very seriously at endorsing.

The Chair: I was just going to ask you to explain what ILO is so that—

Mr. Ken Luckhardt: I'm sorry. It's the International Labour Organization, based in Geneva, which represents governments, employers, and workers organizations.

The Chair: Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Sheila Katz: Could I just add to this?

The Chair: Ms. Katz.

Ms. Sheila Katz: There's some urgency around this because the governing body of the ILO is meeting this month in Geneva. If this committee, for example, were to make a recommendation or were to communicate with the labour branch or HRDC, which represents Canada at the International Labour Organization, it would have to be done very quickly.

The Chair: Okay.

Monsieur Dubé, you still have two minutes.

[Translation]

Mr. Antoine Dubé: You have talked about assassinations and what was done to union leaders. I am impressed by the fact that there still are unions, in spite of this. What is the situation? Has the number of unionized workers decreased appreciably? Have some unions closed down because of these problems? What is the situation? You have figures, the number of deaths and so on, but do the unions manage to survive in spite of everything?

[English]

Mr. Ken Luckhardt: It is alive and well, but at great peril. Numbers are down in part, not only because of the violence, but also because of the whole neo-liberal package that has been imposed upon Colombia or that the Colombian government has accepted in the past decade. Many of the publicly owned operations have been privatized, and as they get privatized, many of the unions disappear in that process.

But the courage of the Colombian working class—if I can put it that way—is something one has to personally experience. They constantly come back to try to organize for a peaceful society. They try to organize for better conditions as more and more of their people get marginalized through the global economic processes. People have two choices: they either completely capitulate or they resist and try to organize. That is a history that's been repeated in many countries around the world. But certainly the Colombian working people are determined to have a vibrant union and want that union to be participating in the broader questions of civil society. Of course, this involves peace, and peace with social justice.

The Chair: Mr. Robinson, five minutes.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses, for their evidence today, but also for their ongoing commitment to justice for the people of Colombia.

I have before me a copy of the most recent report of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, on the human rights situation in Colombia. It is a devastating critique of a deteriorating human rights situation in that country. In many respects, it places the blame for that deterioration squarely with the Colombian government itself.

I personally met with Anders Kompass, the United Nations representative in Bogota, earlier this year. He voiced at that time his profound concern about the deterioration and about the failure of the Colombian government to accept not only recommendations made by the United Nations but by many other international humanitarian organizations as well.

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I really have just two questions. One is to ask the witnesses if they would elaborate on concerns that have been raised about violence by paramilitaries, about the growing evidence of direct links between paramilitaries and government security forces, and about the impunity of government security forces and armed forces in Colombia.

Finally, the Colombian ambassador to Canada, Fanny Kertzman, has been a vigorous and outspoken representative of her government in many respects, but her government, in fact the President of Colombia, promulgated a directive ordering all Colombian government officials to refrain from making accusations about the conduct of human rights organizations and their members.

This particular ambassador showed total contempt for that directive by attacking the work of Bill Fairbairn from the Inter-Church Committee on Human Rights in Latin America. I wonder if the witnesses could indicate just what the impact is of this kind of attack by the ambassador on the safety and security of human rights defenders such as Bill Fairbairn and others.

The Chair: Go ahead, Ken.

Mr. Ken Luckhardt: I guess I'll take your last one first. I'm absolutely amazed that this has happened. In my estimation, and I think in the estimation of most Canadians and Colombians who know his work, Bill Fairbairn is one of the most important persons in making the link between human rights abuse in Colombia and international solidarity, trying to change that situation.

I was completely amazed that this type of statement would be made by an ambassador from Colombia. It seems to me that if the concerns of her citizens were foremost in her mind, she would be applauding the work of human rights organizations in Canada, not just by ICCHRLA but the labour movement and the church organizations. I am just waiting for those kinds of comments to be made.

With regard to the paramilitary connection, we constantly read and hear about increasing evidence. Human Rights Watch and a number of other organizations have documented the link between the paramilitary and the government.

As I was flying up here on the plane today, I was reading new quotes where certain lower-ranking paramilitary leaders were saying that they themselves were the spearhead for Plan Colombia. That is, they go into certain regions in the southern part of the country, with the full knowledge of the Colombian military, with intelligence information from the Colombian military, and secure an area. Only after that area is secured and people are removed does the spraying get done in the fumigation part of Plan Colombia.

So taking the paramilitaries at their own word, they say they are the spearhead for Plan Colombia. It seems to me, then, it's not just the connection with the Colombian government; it's also the connection with the American war plan in Colombia that raises serious concerns in my mind.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you.

We have half an hour for the ambassador, our next witness, so I'm asking if the Liberal members can wait with their questions.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare (Ottawa—Orléans, Lib.): I'll wait.

The Chair: Good.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Madam Chair, if I wait for the ambassador, does that mean I have to wait in line for questions?

The Chair: No, you get the next question. You get first crack, Eugène.

We'd like to thank our witnesses. We will certainly keep the papers you're sending. We're waiting for some papers from Mr. Comte, and perhaps he can send them to the clerk. We may have to call on you again. We'll be sitting in the fall.

Again, thank you very much for coming. You may stay and listen to the ambassador, if you'd like.

Members, we'll take a short break.

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The Chair: Ladies and gentlemen, I call the meeting to order.

We have just been asked to close down the meeting and go back to the House. I'm very sorry. We'll have the witness back again, if she would come. I'd like to mention that it's very unusual to have an ambassador come into a committee meeting. I'd like to thank her very much.

Mr. Svend Robinson: On a brief point, I wonder, just before we go, if we could agree to the motion. I've got a draft of the motion there, expressing—

The Chair: The clerk has worked on it too, so it's not just from one person.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Yes, because we may not meet again. The wording I would suggest, subject to consultation, is as follows:

That this Committee express its deep concern about the recent disappearance of Colombian indigenous leader Kimy Domico Pernia and urge the Colombian government to take all possible steps to seek the safe return of Mr. Pernia and to protect his life in the future.

The Chair: If I could just comment, that's very similar to what the chair of the foreign affairs committee and I wrote.

Mr. Svend Robinson: Exactly.

Ms. Fanny Kertzman (Ambassador for Colombia): I would like to say something about that.

The Chair: We're not going to go on with the meeting right now. Right now the meeting is closed.

Ms. Fanny Kertzman: I have just a brief comment on that, if I may.

The Chair: Okay.

Ms. Fanny Kertzman: If you are going to protest the disappearance of this indigenous leader, who we are very sorry for, and we are making our best effort to know what happened, you should also protest the assassination of 24 indigenous people last week by the guerrillas in exactly the same region.

The Chair: Yes, but—

Mr. Svend Robinson: I would suggest following up on the letter that was written by the chair of the committee and the chair of the foreign affairs committee.

The Chair: And the researcher has written up a similar notice.

Yes?

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Shouldn't the word “protest” be changed to “concern”?

Mr. Svend Robinson: That's what it says. It doesn't say “protest”, it says “concern”.

The Chair: It says “concern”. It didn't say “protest”, it said “concern”.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: What does it say, “protest” or “concern”?

The Chair: “Concern”.

Mr. Svend Robinson: “Express it's deep concern”.

The Chair: “Concern”, that's all.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: And who do you address that to?

The Chair: The president of the country, just saying we're concerned and we'd like to—

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: And what about other people who are disappearing? Aren't you going to say “and others who have been disappearing”?

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The Chair: We could do that, except that we have about 30 seconds before we're supposed to be out of here.

Mr. Eugène Bellemare: Why pick on one case?

Mr. Svend Robinson: But this particular individual is one Canadians actually have met with. He's been to Canada, spoken at the human rights forum. He's appeared before this committee.

Mr. Deepak Obhrai: I do understand that, but I agree with that. The fact that we have written our letters on an individual basis is fine, but if you're going to write as a committee, I think you have to address the other disappearances and the others we should be equally concerned for.

The Chair: Svend, I think we could add one phrase in there that would mean “and all others”.

Mr. Svend Robinson: If we add it, then let me just try this:

That this Committee express its deep concern about the recent disappearance of Colombian indigenous leader Kimy Domico Pernia and others and urge the Colombian government to take all possible steps to seek the safe return of Mr. Pernia and to protect his life and that of others in the future.

The Chair: Yes. That sounds good. Any objections to that?

Maybe we're back on. Sorry. We're back on until 5 o'clock.

I think that's acceptable. Are there any objections to that motion?

(Motion agreed to)

The Chair: We'll ask the researcher to mail that out as soon as possible.

Can we please go to the ambassador again? Thank you very much for coming. It's going to be very short, because we have to be out at 5 o'clock, and we want a five-minute meeting first.

Ms. Fanny Kertzman: I don't have a problem if we move this meeting to after the summer break. I don't mind at all.

The Chair: I think that would be the best thing to do.

Ms. Fanny Kertzman: I prefer to have time enough for you to listen to me and ask all the questions you want. I could give my version freely, not with the pressure of time.

The Chair: All right. I think that's what we'll do.

Thank you very much for coming. Thanks to the people who were in the room.

I adjourn this meeting to the call of the chair.