Committees / Business of Committees

Committees meeting during the ringing of division bells; powers of standing and legislative Committees; Standing Order 108(1); Standing Order 113(5); interruption of committee proceedings: voluntary decision; practice in the British House of Commons

March 20, 1990

Debates, pp. 9512-3

On January 25, 1990, Mr. Jean-Robert Gauthier (Ottawa—Vanier) rose on a point of order to object to the fact that Committees were continuing to sit when Members were being summoned to the House for a recorded division.^[1] On January 30, Mr. David Barrett (Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca) also expressed concern about this matter.^[2]

On March 20, 1990, the Speaker delivered a ruling covering a number of issues related to the ringing of division bells. An excerpt of the ruling concerning the continuation of committee meetings during the ringing of division bells is reproduced below.

Decision of the Chair

Mr. Speaker: Committees sitting at the same time as bells are sounded to call Members into the House for a recorded division continues to be a problem in the eyes of some honourable Members. On January 25 and again on January 30 first the honourable Member for Ottawa—Vanier and later the honourable Member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca raised this matter.

This is not the first time this matter has been brought forward. Last May 31, [1989] for example, the honourable Member for Hamilton East (Ms. Sheila Copps) complained that the Standing Committee on the Environment was sitting at the same time as division bells were ringing in the House to call the Members in for a vote.^[3]

The Chair appreciates the difficult position that Members are put in because they cannot be in two places at the same time. Committees sitting concurrently as the House calls in Members for a vote can mean that an honourable Member has to decide to attend either the House to cast his or her vote or to attend the committee meeting. This is very often a serious dilemma for Members.

Let me first point out that subsection (1) of Standing Order 108 grants powers to standing Committees which specifically includes the power to sit while the House is sitting and during periods when the House stands adjourned. Subsection (5) of Standing Order 113 grants exactly the same powers to legislative Committees. There is no qualification whatsoever in the wording of these Standing Orders. Thus, it would appear that there is no restriction in our rules which would prevent any Committees of this House from sitting at the same time as division bells are ringing to call the Members in for a recorded vote.

This view is in keeping with rulings arising from similar situations that have occurred in the past. I can refer the House to rulings of the Chair on February 16, 1971, February 22, 1971, May 28, 1971, May 5, 1976, June 23, 1976, November 7, 1978 and June 8, 1981.^[4] These are rulings of Speakers Lamoureux, Jerome and Sauve, and all are agreed that the Speaker can do nothing in the circumstances complained of in the face of the Standing Orders. In the ruling of February 22, 1971, Mr. Speaker Lamoureux spoke of records showing that such situations had occurred in every regular session since 1952.

Mr. Speaker Lamoureux pointed out in the same ruling that the Standing Committees of the House of Commons at Westminster interrupt their proceedings in order to allow Members to participate in divisions. It is only fair to add, however, that this is the usual practice in our Committees. It is a voluntary action to suspend proceedings and respond to the bells.

I am concerned about the matter raised by honourable Members but, in my view, it is neither a point of order nor a question of privilege. It is rather a grievance but a serious one and in light of the many instances where the matter has been raised on the floor, it is one that merits some attention by the House. Perhaps the Standing Committee on Elections and Privileges might consider the situation and decide whether or not to recommend changes to our rules...

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1990-03-20